mcconnell freezes for the second time in front of reporters. >> the senate has become the most privileged nursing home in the country. >> are america's aging leaders becoming a liability? i'll speak with franklin foer, the author of "the last politician," a new book about president biden, with an inside account of how the oldest president in history operates. and buy american. the u.s. warns china that american businesses may stop investing if conditions do not improve. >> otherwise, it's too risky, and as i said, uninvestable. >> how escalaing tensions with china made it far worse. i'll talk to commerce secretary gina raimondo. joining me for insight and analysis are nbc news chief washington correspondent andrea mitchell, jake sherman, co-founder of punchbowl news, former homeland security secretary jeh johnson, and republican strategist sara fagen. welcome to sunday. it's "meet the press." >> from nbc news in washington, the longest running show in television history, this is "meet the press" with chuck todd. good sunday morning and a happy labor day weekend. buckle up for a turbulent fall. lawmakers will return to washington this week to a political storm of their own making. with a biden impeachment inquiry looking more and more likely and the uncertainty about whether the government can keep the lights on after this month. and there are televised pretrial proceedings in atlanta that are about to begin in the first of four criminal trials tied to donald trump. all of it adds up to a series of critical tests for our democracy, and it's not clear our political leaders are equipped to meet this moment. in washington, far from laying out a vision for the future of the country, congress is focused on the bare minimum, just passing a bill to fund the government. some house conservatives are making it clear they're not going to vote for any short-term spending bill saying, quote, if a shutdown occurs, so be it. what we most of what we do up here is bad anyway. most americans won't even miss it." kevin mccarthy is arguing it would stall any impeachment inquiry some of those same house conservatives would like to start. >> it is a natural step forward that you would have to go to an impeachment inquiry. >> i would actually like to have a short-term cr only to make our argument stronger because, maria, if we shut down, all government shuts down, investigations and everything else. >> you heard mccarthy correctly. he is trying to leverage the impeachment carrot to persuade some house republicans to keep the government open, but so far, many of those house conservatives aren't buying the deal. >> we are not going to be distracted by a shiny object saying if you don't get this continued resolution passed, we won't be able to pursue the impeachment inquiry. that's nonsense. >> the white house has stood up a war room of two dozen lawyers, by the way, legislative aides and communication staffers, to lead on aggressive response to this expected republican impeachment inquiry. historically, it's been senate republican leader mitch mcconnell who's been a shield against the sound and fury of house conservatives. it's one reason he is so unpopular with many of those house conservatives. in fact, he held a wednesday press conference that was supposed to serve as a reality check because he announced the senate was going to the pass a bipartisan bill to fund the government despite their complaints. but at that same wednesday event, mcconnell appeared to freeze again, this time for about 30 seconds. his office said he felt lightheaded, the reason they gave for a july episode when he was caught on camera unable to speak for 20 seconds at a press conference. that was after a concussion from a serious fall in march. now mcconnell's ability to lead is in serious doubt. there are questions even in his inner circle about how much longer that the longest serving party leader in the senate can go. just half an hour after capitol physicians released a terse letter medically clearing mcconnell for work, the usual friendly national review to republicans called on mcconnell to step aside. and complaints are getting louder. >> right now, the senate is the most privileged nursing home in the country. >> i think it would be most prudent if he step aside. >> it's not at all unusual to have a response that sometimes happens to mitch when you've had a severe concussion. it's part of -- it's part of recovery. and so i'm confident he's going to be back to his old self. >> that's right. president biden was mcconnell's loudest defender this week. of course the spotlight on his age and health is not great for president biden. in fact, in a new a.p. north poll, more than three-quarters of americans, including 69% of democrats, say biden is too old to effectively serve a second term. meanwhile, a majority of the country, 53%, approve of the criminal charges that have been brought against trump in the 2020 election cases. just 29% disapprove of those moves. overall, just 24% believe biden should run in 2024, and just 30% want to see trump run, yet here we are. joining me now, republican governor chris sununu of new hampshire. of course, thought about a run for president himself but decided against it. in some ways he's the ombudsman for the republican party these days. so, governor sununu, get ready to play ombudsman here with us. welcome back to "meet the press." >> well, thanks for having me. >> let me start with something that another governor said earlier today -- earlier this week. it was brian kemp of georgia pushing back at some georgia trump-supporting statehouse conservatives who wanted to use the legislature to essentially defund fani willis' case against donald trump. listen to what governor kemp said about that move. >> up to this point, i have not seen any evidence that da willis' actions or lack thereof warrant action but the prosecuting attorney oversight commission. the bottom line is that in the state of georgia, as long as i'm governor, we're going to follow the law and to constitution regardless of who it helps or harms politically. >> i want to ask you this, governor sununu. you and governor kemp share this ability to take on donald trump and not to get politically penalized for it in your party, in your home state. why don't other presidential candidates not named trump see the success you and governor kemp have had and follow suit? >> well, again, first off, governor kemp is spot on. the guy's an oak. he's the oak of georgia, and he's got some big shoulders, and he handles it incredibly every time. you don't have to make it personal. i'm not saying other candidates do that. when you're running for president against the former president, it's an odd dynamic to be sure. the key to not just taking on trump, but call the balls and strikes like you see them. you don't make things personal. you do things that are clearly in the best interests of the constituency regardless of the party. i'm a staunch fiscal conservative and i want to support republican ideals, but that doesn't mean we'll bend and break rules because when you do that, you set precedent for the other side. as for the other candidates running for president, they have to be tougher on trump. chris christie goes nuclear on him. god bless him. he does a great job and exposes a lot of that, which is important. but i think what we saw on the debate stage last week, there was still a little too much kowtowing to him. you had vivek saying he was one of the greatest presidents, but he was going to be better than him, still going to be running against him. so it was an odd dynamic to be sure. there's still a lot of time here, a lot of time for this to play out. >> are you sure? let me show you this "wall street journal" poll that came out. yes, it's a national primary number, yes, you have to take it with a little bit of a grain, but as you know, all politics have become national. trump's lead has expanded, and desantis is closer to the single-digit crowd than he is to the 20s where he started off. this is clearly a poll that shows trump strengthening and everybody else weakening, and this was done post-debate. so it sort of reinforces your point, doesn't it? >> yeah, look, i'm surprised by those numbers. i am. look, nationally, the polls are different than what we're seeing where the conversation is really happening. i appreciate we've had one debate nationally. i think that's a very important step. but look at iowa and new hampshire, where the candidates are on the ground making their case as strong as they can. those poll numbers are different. trump is in, like, the 42% range. trump has a floor of maybe 35%. but he also has a ceiling. ultimately it's probably somewhere in the high 40s because over a third of his supporters say they would go to another candidate, they just need more time to look at them. that's where trump's weakness really is. it's not a fait accompli. like in the media, this is over, it's really not. remember this guy named barack obama who they said had no chance against hillary clinton and the clinton machine and all of that back in '08? in about six months, things got very different. you have to let the process play out. the key is whittling down the field. we had 13 candidates a month ago, 8 or 9 today, i think maybe 3 or 4 by new hampshire. when it's one-on-one, trump is in trouble, and he knows that. and so depending on who that one is, and it still remains very much to be seen, that's where the republicans have the opportunity to talk about healing america, not just relitigating donald trump's trauma. >> the person closest to trump continues to be the governor of florida, ron desantis. he chose not to meet with president biden in florida yesterday. let me play what president biden said in response to what some believe was a snub. take a listen. >> no, i'm not disappointed. he may have had other reasons, but he did help us plan this. he sat with fema and decided where we should go, where we would be the least bothersome. >> look, rick scott, a former governor, a republican senator who's up for re-election in 2024, maybe is worried about voters, did show you were and met with biden. what do you make of the governor's decision? you and i both know there's this pugilistic streak on the right, some advisers believe never show you can work with the other side, that's bad politics. >> well, look, i understand the politics of the situation, but i think down in florida, it didn't sound like there was a lot of animosity between the two. i didn't see the current president biden, you know, complaining. i don't want to comment on their schedules or whatever that might have been. i think the key is you can't make politics out of a disaster like that. i think governor desantis has handled both the previous and current, very significant hurricanes very, very well. he's on the ground. when you have situations like that as a governor, it is 24/7. it really is. he was there with the head of fema and, you know, walked the sites, talked to individuals, worked with insurance companies, bringing in the machinery. it is really a 24/7 job, and i don't think we can look too much into the politics of the situation. >> i think people hope that is the case. none of us want to see that stuff get tied to politics. let me ask you about this 14th amendment debate, and the only reason i'm asking you is it actually could -- there seems to be somebody who wants to bring this case to the new hampshire ballot, so this could have an impact on whether donald trump is on the ballot or not. let me ask you, do you expect to have to see this litigated before donald trump is on the new hampshire ballot? >> no. no, no. donald trump will be -- if donald trump follows the rules like everybody else and signs up like everybody else, that's the beauty of the new hampshire first in the nation primary process. it's a very open, very easy process for a lot of folks to partake in. i see no reason why he wouldn't be on the ballot. i suppose if someone wants to try to litigate it, it's not a new hampshire issue. they're litigating it against the 14th amendment of the u.s. constitution and therefore would be applicable to all 50 states. i fully expect the former president to be on our ballot. >> let me ask you about this third-party movement. if donald trump is the nominee, joe biden is the nominee, we know no label wants to come up with their own candidate, are you supportive of that idea still? >> well, look, according to the polls you just showed, about 70% of america is supportive of that idea to not see trump and biden on that ticket. i heard someone put it once, 70% of america -- if it's a trump/biden ticket -- says it will be politically homeless. they won't have any -- >> is that true? are you going to feel politically homeless? >> no. >> if it's trump versus biden? >> no, because they won't be on the top of the ticket. it's not going to be that way. look, i think there's a good shot that neither of them are actually on that ballot. i think trump can very much lose if they bring it to one-on-one. i think a lot of issues will come to bear with president biden in the next year. but to the no labels point, there's an opportunity there like never before. it would have to be the right candidate, have to be somebody very energizing -- >> would you do it? >> -- positive, transparent, someone with a good record. >> would you do it? >> no, nothing i'm looking at. i'm still working 24/7 to make sure the republican party is the best version of itself. that is with yesterday's news of donald trump, but a conservative that can fulfill on all the policies that trump brought forward that we agreed with but he couldn't get done. he didn't get the border done, didn't get fiscal discipline done, didn't drain the swamp. those were great ideas, but let's get a conservative in there that can actually do it. >> under no circumstances you would be a no-labels candidate if donald trump is on the ballot? >> no, nothing i'm looking at. sorry. >> what concerns you more, four more years of biden or four more years of trump? >> to be honest, what concerns me more, if we just fall into having both of them back on the ticket, i think you're bringing up the point, this is not what america wants. it doesn't mean our primary system is broken. it means more of us have to be engaged in the system to make sure our voice is heard as that 70% of americans who always want to look forward. with biden and trump, all you're doing is looking backwards and relitigating a lot of drama. nobody want those. everybody wants to move forward in a positive way, have a transparent government and institutions they can treft. we have amazing institutions in this country, but there's a lack of trust there. it happens by bringing in transparency and getting back to getting stuff done. >> is an impeachment of joe biden healthy for the country? a good idea by house republicans? >> impeachment of any president is an unhealthy thing for the country. that would be a terrible, terrible situation. now, you have to figure out what happened there. i mean, there's no doubt that there's a lot of unanswered questions with the hunter biden issue. but, no, let's be clear, impeachment is a terrible thing for america. it brings everybody down. it rocks the system, if you will, doesn't bring it to its foundation, but it does rock it. we need to be more positive going forward, given all the economic crises not just today but as bad as it's going to become. this economy is getting a lot worse before it's getting better. >> this political environment, you know, i've looked at these special elections this year, there's been other analysis, democrats are overperforming everywhere. you've seen it in your own state, where democrats have won elections where normal republicans win. is this due to abortion? is this due to trump? what do you think it's about? >> it's about the former president more than anything. and i can tell you i've had school board members, republican school board members that have lost their seats because they felt like they had to constantly answer for being a trump republican and all of that. it's a negative brand. it puts a lot of hesitation. so it isn't just the federal seat. it's the governorships, the school boards, the congressional seats, all of them, especially in a place like new hampshire where, you know, we can kind of go back and forth, we're very independent-minded. the trump brand just doesn't work. it really doesn't. so to clear that off the table once and for all is a huge opportunity for republicans to get back elected officials where the policy matters most, at the local level. >> governor chris sununu, republican of new hampshire. appreciate you coming on and sharing your perspective. >> thank you, buddy. when we come back, with tensions rising between the united states and china, can the world's two biggest economies stay in business with each other? commerce secretary gina raimondo joins me next. joins me next. gives you a break when you need it. yeah, with flexible payment options to keep you covered. so today is your lucky...day [crash] so today is your lucky...day for a great low rate, go with the general. hello savings! blendjets labor day sale is on! blendjet gives you ice crushing big blender power on the go. so you can whip up a mouthwatering beverage, wherever you are! enjoy 15 plus blends before rapidly recharging via usb-c. and it even cleans itself with a drop of soap and water. stand out even when you■re accidentally twinning with our kaleidoscope of colors. don■t let these deals drift away! head to blendjet.com and order yours now! that's some bad luck brian. and i think i'm late on my car insurance. good thing the general gives you a break when you need it. yeah, with flexible payment options to keep you covered. so today is your lucky...day [crash] so today is your lucky...day for a great low rate, go with the general. here's why you should switch fro [crash] so today is your lucky...day to duckduckgo on all your devie duckduckgo comes with a built-in search eg but it doesn't spy on your seac and our browser blocks creepy ads that follow you around fro and other companies. and it's free. download duckduk we're here today to set the record straight about dupuytren's contracture. surgery is not your only treatment option. people may think their contracture has to be severe to be treated, but it doesn't. visit findahandspecialist.com today to get started. welcome back. as many of you know, the united states/china relationship is at its lowest level in decades with mounting sides, both nations preparing for a future consulate of spy balloons and other forms of espionage to deepening military alliances on both sides. now could a tiny microchip spark world war iii? nowhere are tensions more apparent than in the fight over these tiny little chips, semiconductors, microchips that power everything from microwaves to cars to weapons systems. more than 90% of the chips for semiconductors are made in taiwan. if china invades taiwan, the u.s. could have trouble meeting its own demands for microchips. beijing wants to boost its semiconductor capacity to become more economically resilient and possibly to prepare its own military for an invasion of taiwan. joining me now, just back from a trip to china, is the secretary of commerce, gina raimondo. secretary raimondo, welcome back to "meet the press." >> thank you. good morning. >> let me start with the fact this is the fourth trip a major administration official has made since the summer began with secretary blinken, secretary yellen went over there, former senator kerry on climate talks went over there, and now you. and it feels as if it's sort of in a relationship here. we're doing all of the -- making all the effort. we're trying to reach out to them as we try to, you know, turn down the temperature. we've yet to see reciprocation from them. at what point do we stop asking? >> yeah. first, let me say that my counterpart, the chinese minister of commerce, minister wang, did come to see me in the spring and invited me to china, which is -- you know, i accepted his invitation. so, you know, it's not entirely true. he came here. it was a good visit. but, you know, you make a good point, and kind of the theme of my trip was we need dialogue, we need contact and communication, but we also need action. you know, in my trip, even the most senior chinese officials said all of the right things, said that they wanted to have robust commercial relationships and treat american businesses fairly on the ground in china. and my message was actions speak louder than words. so i think you make a fair point, and we're looking to see whether china does do a better job at treating u.s. businesses fairly and workers, you know, leveling the playing field for our workers. >> but, you know, insult to injury, they hacked your email right before you went. it's almost like -- it almost feels like they were thumbing their nose at us. you can come and visit, but we're doing our best to find out everything you know anyway. you confronted them with this. i saw that report. but it does send a message of we're not that interested in engagement. >> you know, look, if they did hack me, which was unappreciated to say the least, i brought it you were, clearly, put it right on the table. by the way, i brought up many of our grievances on behalf of our national security concerns, concerns of u.s. labor, concerns of u.s. business, didn't pull any punches. still, though, it's a complicated relationship. there's no doubt about it. we are in a fierce competition with china at every level, and anyone who tells you differently is naive. all of that being said, we have to manage this competition. conflict is in no one's interest. we need to manage the competition responsibly. that's good for america and good for the world. and in that respect, i think our commercial relationship, which is very large and growing and underpins hundreds of thousands of u.s. jobs, our commercial relationship is stable, can be kind of a ballast for the entire relationship. and anything we do that can create stability is, in fact, good for the american people. >> when i look at their economy and i look at our economy, i know how the american public views our economy right now, but when you compare the two economies, we're in a lot better shape post-covid than china is domestically on that front. is that our real goal here? do we think maybe they'll essentially cry uncle and realize we have to stop this antagonistic relationship with the u.s. because we need to improve our domestic economy? is that our ultimate negotiating leverage? >> well, look, i'll say this. it's clearly true. the facts speak for themselves on this one, that when china was more market-oriented and reform-minded, their economy -- you know, they lifted hundreds of millions of people out of poverty. i was in shanghai. it's quite stunning to see the progress shanghai has made in the past 20 years. and so it's clearly true that when they were more market-focused and reform-oriented, the chinese economy was stronger. and so that's my point. it's not so much leverage. it's that it does seem to be true that it's in their self-interest to be less antagonistic to u.s. business. >> are we going to be allowing american companies -- are we going to be exporting super conductor chips to china in a way that china doesn't feel like we're trying to choke their military technology and other things like that? >> well, we are trying to choke their military capacity, so if they feel that, that means the strategy is working. we are not going to -- certainly on my watch, we're not going to sell the most sophisticated american chip to china that they want for their military capacity. >> are we going to prevent any company from doing that? >> that being said -- >> you can't do business with the united states in this industry if you want to sell those chips to china, correct? we're going to stick to that? >> absolutely. yes. but i do want to be clear, we will also still continue to sell, you know, billions of dollars of chips a year to china because the vast majority of chips that are made are not, you know, the leading-edge, cutting-edge that i'm talking about. and that is hard. that's hard for people to accept. it's kind of a nuanced, complex message and policy reality, but it is the reality because, you know, export controls are about national security, not an economic advantage. so we're going to be as strict as strict can be and as hard line as possible, denying china the most sophisticated chips. but we're also going to sell, you know, like i said, billions of dollars of less sophisticated chips, which by the way, chuck, is good for america, creates revenue for american companies which they can plow back into research and development, which allows us to lead the world in innovation. >> two quick questions, one having to do with the largest agency inside of commerce, which most of our viewers may not realize is noaa, but that comes under your purview. there were a disturbing report this week that the hurricane planes are out of commission. two were under repair. and then another was unable to track. what's the situation? do we have out-of-date equipment? is this a funding issue or just bad luck? >> so, first of all, i want to be clear, they did complete their mission, the hurricane hunters did complete their mission. in fact, they're not allowed to continue to fly once the hurricane hits land. it's too dangerous. so, you know, we got the job done. the rest of it was routine maintenance. one of these planes had been flying nonstop for 12 days and so had to go down for maintenance. all of that being said, we do need more resources, and congress has just given us more resources. these planes are really expensive, as you might imagine. >> right. >> and we will continue to work with congress. we plan to ask for even more resources because we need to get the job done. >> it's going to be a busy hurricane season. are they going to be able to do the job for the next 60 days, which is the height of hurricane season? will they be able to work? >> yes. >> finally, your interactions with president biden, are you confident he's got the ability to serve a full second term? >> 100%. i talked to him right before i left for china. he gave me the best advice of about 200 people that i spoke with. i talked with business leaders, other folks in the administration. he was sharp. he was clear. he's got a ton of energy, and i'm so excited to be on his team. >> secretary gina raimondo, former governor of rhode island, by the way, won two terms there. thanks for coming on and sharing your perspective. >> thank you. thank you. when we come back, new questions this week about senator mitch mcconnell's health are making it harder for republicans to point fingers at president biden about his age. the panel is next. the panel is next. good thing the general gives you a break when you need it. yeah, with flexible payment options to keep you covered. just tag us in. ouaaaahhhh! [bell dings] for a great low rate, go with the general. [ tires screeching ] jordana, easy on the gas. i gotta wrap this commercial, i think i'm late on my payment. it's okay, the general gives you a break. yeah, we let you pick your own due date. good to know, because this next scene might take a while. for a great low rate, go with the general. i suffer with psoriatic arthritis and psoriasis. i was on a journey for a really long time next scene might take a while. to find some relief. cosentyx works for me. cosentyx helps real people get real relief from the symptoms of psoriatic arthritis or psoriasis. serious allergic reactions and an increased risk of infections or lowered ability to fight them may occur. tell your doctor if you have an infection or symptoms, had a vaccine or plan to or if ibd symptoms develop or worsen. i move so much better because of cosentyx. ask your rheumatologist about cosentyx. welcome back. panelists here, nbc news chief washington correspondent andrea mitchell. jake sherman, co-founder of punchbowl news. former homeland security secretary jeh johnson, and longtime republican strategist sara fagen. welcome. all right. let me play a little bit of what happened with mitch mcconnell. >> what are your thoughts for running for re-election in 2024? >> what are my thoughts about what? >> running for re-election? >> oh. that's a -- >> that would go on for another about 15 seconds. jake sherman, after that moment, "national review" came out, called for him to step down. everybody comes back this week. i imagine this senate republican lunch is going to be the most important lunch mcconnell has had in a while. >> that's right. he's very locked down even in the best of times so we don't have a good idea. i'm not a doctor, we're not physicians, but a few things are clear. number one, senate republicans are worried. this is all the talk of the leadership and rank and file right now. they wonder whether he'll last a year in the senate. that's something i've heard incessantly over the last couple days. he can't afford to have another episode in public. i talked to people who were with him the night this -- you know, after this happened, and they said he was fine, he was energized, he was on point, he was really sharp. >> sara fagen, this feels like, you know, house conservatives don't like him. he has this unique thing he makes both the left and the right mad. >> sure. >> does that add to political pressure on him? >> i think it certainly makes him more of a target. i appreciate the comment that he can't afford one more of these episodes in public, but we have a president who's also had episodes where he's gotten confused on stage and nobody is saying the president can't afford one more of these episodes. >> i think a lot of people are saying that, but that's okay. >> look, we have to be careful not to conflate age with a recovery. >> mm-hmm. >> and, yes, mitch mcconnell is older, but he had a concussion, and the medical community appears to be saying that this can be a natural, you know, issue when somebody's recovering from a concussion. so nobody cares about the senate more than mitch mcconnell. i'm confident if he's able to serve, he'll be serving. >> andrea? >> i think the only person more concerned about his future is joe biden because the future of a government potential shutdown, of any kind of agreement, it's mitch mcconnell who has been saying openly to the house he didn't agree to their spending levels that they had changed from the previous budget agreement. so mitch mcconnell is the key to any kind of bipartisan action up there. but i think in fairness, i don't think it's age or the concussion and in reading what the neurologists are saying -- they haven't examined him, but from a lot of symptoms they see in his eyes and in the way he's responded, he does need medical help because if it is a seizure or a small stroke, a t. it. a., you need help in order to -- there's medication, but this kind of high-pressure job is not helping. >> 1998, my first senate confirmation hearing before the senate armed services committee was charged by 96-year-old strom thurmond. >> mm-hmm. how did that go? >> he worked entirely off index cards, and when he wandered off the index cards, everybody in the room would hold their breath. the reality was he was carried by his staff and by his senate colleagues in a different time and place. now in the senate, in the white house, there are far too many cameras, far too many iphones, and it's difficult to hide your age. >> and every time the mcconnell issue comes up, we talk about biden's age in the same story. >> oh, every mcconnell moment is terrible politics for biden. >> let me add one thing. i have a lot of interactions with mitch mcconnell. he is as -- i don't see any slippage mentally from mitch mcconnell. >> these are clearly incidents. these are moments in time. >> the staff around him says that, you know, that he is as sharp as he was. his schedule in august was the same as it was last year. >> but i'm curious, do you think this is going to be a political issue, that, hey, we want to make this an issue on biden? >> i think they're going to make an issue of biden in any case. they have no -- >> sure. but i sort of compare it to he got thurmond on the bus because of a special election. political timing sometimes. >> that's a good point by some conservatives who had no love lost for mitch mcconnell. >> right. >> it becomes a convenient argument. but it doesn't make it right. >> the more it comes from marjorie taylor greene, the better it is for him in the senate. there's so much agreement in the senate against any -- >> i agree with that. >> listen, mcconnell has unusually strong grip on the senate republican conference. he survived a very lame i would say challenge from rick scott. he has the support of his people. >> let's talk about this idea. can speaker mccarthy effectively use impeachment to keep the government open, sara? i feel like he's gotten caught doing this now, and it's, like, it's kind of an open secret that that's what he's trying to pull off here. is that possible? >> well, i think, listen, he has been incredibly effective. you just think back to his election, and -- and all of the difficult circumstances in the course of his speakership where he has figured out how to move the caucus forward and how to move the country forward, i have a lot of confidence he will figure that out. look, i think there is growing concern, legitimate concern around what happened in hunter biden's business dealings and what connection did it have to the current president. and now there's, you know, a big trove of emails released that, you know, appear to be, you know, by a pseudonym. an impeachment investigation doesn't necessarily mean an impeachment. >> right. >> but because there are so many unanswered questions, it's a reasonable step to take. >> i'm sorry. that's an impeachment inquiry in search of a crime. that's not what impeachment is for. nixon was watergate, clinton was monica lewinsky, trump was ukraine, then january 6th. if we're moving to a world where we conduct impeachment inquiries simply to find a crime, that's a poor place to be. >> i don't disagree with you, but we have a problem at the justice department where it doesn't appear to be independent, and you kind of look at the fact pattern of, you know, the plea deal that fell apart, and you start to, you know, have whistle-blowers inside the government who are raising questions about, you know, justice officials, and so what is a house republican supposed to do to get answers? >> merrick garland is very independent. >> how does this get resolved? >> number one, the government shuts down before the end of the year. i think that's a near certainty. two, if they open an impeachment inquiry, which i believe they will, they'll impeach biden. they won't open one and -- >> weirdly enough, if they go down the road, it would be worse politics. >> they always vote when there's an impeachment. >> so -- >> i don't think they have the votes for an impeachment inquiry right now. and three, if the government shuts down, they can still impeach him. it's a falseequivalency. >> jake, you're here, and i want to take advantage of the fact we had headlines over the weekend of the migrants at the border. there's been a surge. a lot of families are crossing with kids. it's triple what it was. it was sort of like because the first two weeks went well, they thought they were in the clear. >> right. >> not so much. >> yes. we got a break in may, but the surge that we see now was bound to happen. i'm sure you've heard me say dozens of times now that illegal immigration on our southern border, we need changes in our enforcement policy. but as long as the underlying pushbackers persist, the numbers are always going to revert back to their longer-term trend lines. >> we are. thank you, guys. appreciate this. when we come back, new york's population grows but the number of seats in the house of representatives hasn't changed since william howard taft was president. is congress too small? "data download" is next. >> announcer: "meet the press" is brought to you by ibm. let's create something that changes everything. ipm. let's create. ng ipm. let's create that's some bad luck brian. and i think i'm late on my car insurance. good thing the general gives you a break when you need it. yeah, with flexible payment options to keep you covered. so today is your lucky...day [crash] so today is your lucky...day for a great low rate, go with the general. how can you sleep on such a firm setting? gab, mine is almost the same as yours. [crash] so today is your lucky...day almost is just another word for not as good as mine. save 50% on the sleep number limited edition smart bed. plus, free home delivery when you add a base. shop now only at sleep number. we are back. "data download" time. as the population of our country has grown, the size of the house of representatives has not. but why not? it's leading to questions about how representatives, the people's house, really is. it doesn't have to be that way. believe it or not, it's only been over the last 100 years we haven't expanded the house. to refresh, we're at 435 house members, and it comes out to one per 765,000 americans. that ratio is actually quite big. in the taft administration when we were still expanding the house every ten years or so, we were at 1 per 210,000. but we stopped expanding the house a little over 100 years ago, and we have ballooned to where we are today. it actually puts us outside the norm in western democracies when you compare our lower chamber in the legislatish branch to other lower chambers, the ones most connected to the population. we're 1 per 750, essentially, japan is 1 per 272, mexico, 1 per 250,000. you see here south korea, australia, all much lower ratios than ours, leading folks to say maybe this ought to change. in fact, democratic congressman from oregon earl blumenauer has introduced a bill that would expand the house of representatives by 150 seats for the 2030 census to get our ratio down to about 1 per 500,000 residents, having a little more of a closer, you know, member of congress a little more of a tighter community. they might be more representative of the people on the ground. so, what would this do to congressional delegations across the country? well, delaware and the two dakotas might actually double in size, going from one to two. in wyoming, it would probably still only have one seat. but take a look at this. this is how the delegations would change in the big states. california would go from 52 congressional seats to 70, texas 38 to 51, florida and new york both would expand by 10 congressional seats, pennsylvania by 6. so it would be quite the change to our electoral college. but guess what? it might make members of congress and washington a little more connected to the people on the ground. when we come back, he's consistently underestimated and he blames the media for his poor approval ratings. president biden's first two years in the office are a subject of a new book by franklin foer. he joins me after the break. but before we go to break, former bill richardson of new mexico died on friday at his home in massachusetts. richardson's career in public life spanned more than four decades. he was energy secretary, ambassador to the united nations. for 14 years he was a member of congress. for two terms the governor of new mexico. in 2007 he launched a short-lived presidential campaign and ended up dropping out and endorsed barack obama. but in recent years, richardson was best known as a savvy international negotiator who secured the releases of hostages and political prisoners from north korea and myanmar to russia, where he worked for months to get wnba star brittney griner home. he appeared on this show 23 times. here he was in 2007, pitching his presidential campaign. >> look, i'm an insurgent candidate. you have to do things differently. i'm also positive. you know, politicians take themselves too seriously. i am trying to get over the fact that this should be an election not necessarily based on celebrity, not necessarily based on who has the most money, which i don't, but i am competitive. i'll have enough to get my message over. but the american people need somebody that can bring this country together. country togethr somebody that can bring this country together. >> in my interactions with him, he truly practiced politics. bill richardson was 75. politic. bill richardson was 75 to duckduckgo on all your devie duckduckgo comes with a built n engine like google, but it's pi and doesn't spy on your searchs and duckduckgo lets you browse like chrome, but it blocks cooi and creepy ads that follow youa from google and other companie. and there's no catch, it's fre. we make money from ads, but they don't follow you aroud join the millions of people taking back their privacy by downloading duckduckgo on all your devices today. welcome back. franklin foer's deeply reported account of president biden's first two years in office paints the portrait of a 20th century politician figuring out how to govern in the post-trump era at a time when crisis follows crisis and democracy appears to be in peril. in one anecdote he describes the aftermath of this striking biden accident in warsaw last year where he seemed to call for regime change in russia. >> for god's sake, this man cannot remain in power. >> foer writes he knew he had erred, but then resented his aides for creating the impression they had cleaned up his mess. he fumed to his friends about how he was treated like a toddler. john kennedy was never babied like that. franklin foer, the author of "the last politician: inside joe biden's white house and the struggle for america's future," joins me now. welcome to "meet the press." >> thanks for having me. >> let's start with the point you're trying to make. >> right. donald trump broke our national psyche when it came to thinking about politics, and joe biden has become a very distant figure to a lot of the public, and some has to do with his age, but a lot has to do with comparison to the last guy in office. biden doesn't flush documents down the toilet, but he's a fascinating character, and i wanted to capture a lot of that. he's somebody who's always been underestimated and that's been the diesel that's propelled his career. he's somebody who thinks of himself as a stubborn contrarian, indeed, in moments like afghanistan, he's managed to resist all the pressure that's piled up on him. and he is somebody who's been around politics forever. he studied politics, and he has a lot of interesting, very singular, very quirky techniques that he uses to get things done. >> politics, i don't think they're personal. at the end of the day, it's relationships, whether you're dealing with china or you're dealing with joe manchin. >> it's emotional intelligence. >> e.q. guy, not an iq guy. >> exactly. his strength as a politician is his ability to think about them and understand their psychological makeup, what their self-interests are, and what the things they'll be the most vain about, and what will be the touch points that will trip them off. he takes that into his account in his calculus. >> let's talk about this issue is he overhandled, is it because of his age, that anecdote about the warsaw speech was interesting. then you wrote this pretty late in the book. you said, "in his advanced years, we're a hindrance, depriving him of the ability to easily conjure a name. it was striking he took so few morning meetings or presided over a few public events before 10:00 a.m. his public persona reflected at times a dulling of mental faculties that no poll or exercise regimen can resist. in private, he would occasionally mention to friends he felt tired." how much does this affect him? >> it doesn't take bob woodward to understand that joe biden is old. i'm not a gerontologist and i can't predict how the next couple years will age joe biden. i think what my book does is shows that he is somebody who -- for whom -- he's buried in details. he's somebody who's very technocraticly obsessed with the intricaies of policies. he's a very activist president in that he micromanages a lot of the dealings in the white house. when it comes to something like talking -- >> but you don't see that. >> you don't. >> what you're describing is much different than his public persona. >> yeah. i think one of the things that's so interesting about joe biden is that he has these insecurities that govern a lot of ways in which he moves through the world. one of his primary insecurities is he doesn't want to be perceived as stupid because he had this plagiarism scandal in the 1980s. so when he walks into an interview or walks into a press conference, he wants to have mastery of what he's discussing. so his prep sessions can go on for long periods of time. >> let me ask you this way. if at the end of this calendar year joe biden announces he's not going to seek a second term, based on all of your reporting, how much of a surprise would that be for you? >> i would say it would be a surprise to me, but it wouldn't be a total surprise to me. >> it wouldn't be a total shock. >> it wouldn't be a total shock. >> why is that? >> when he talks about his life, he uses the word faith constantly. he's a religious guy and faith is a word loaded are religious meaning. he always talks about he can't say where faith goes. so i always, when i hear that, to me, if he's talking about his own future that i account for in thinking about his calculus. >> jill biden's role here, is it as involved as, say, nancy reagan that we've learned over time was very involved in the administration to protect reagan? >> yeah. one of the things i should say about jill biden, she's probably his closest adviser at the end of the day. they have these sweet moments in the morning where she'll tape things on the mirror in order to give him encouraging words. when it comes to policies like education, she's way deep into the weeds and has a lot of sway on this issue, and also she's a proxy for biden because biden doesn't go out on the road as much. the thing about her as opposed to nancy reagan is nobody hates jill biden, so she can go out there in a way in which most first ladies aren't able to. >> look, ever since the afghanistan withdrawal, the pollings have been upside down. >> yes. >> and you talk about the frustration i think biden himself had. you write, "biden considered his poor approval rating a failure of the media, which someone neglected to note all the ways his administration was superior to trump's. it was also a failure of his own white house. there weren't enough surrogates on television defending him." i'm shocked to believe a white house has a communications problem, not a substance problem. >> right. so i think that biden has -- of course every president who suffers an upside-down approval rating is going to moan about the media, and i think there is some truth to it in his case where trump caused the media to go -- to become so emotional, to get so engaged in covering all the high drama, and i think with the biden administration, there's been this desire on the part of the press to reassert its standards of objectivity. so he's probably been covered tougher than he has. >> the relationship with kamala harris, as you write at the beginning, biden said they would have weekly lunches but those began to fall off his schedule. what is the connection? >> the vice presidency is a prem is in for a comedy on hbo. i think it's especially hard for anybody to be a vice president. >> it's hard for anybody to be vice president. i think it's especially hard to be a former vice president. obama and biden had a very -- >> sympathetic to her? >> he is. he's extremely empathetic to her. obama used to talk about it as "my vice president," is the phrase that got under joe biden's skin. he's very respectful of her. he calls her "the vice president." that's very significant for him. but the difference is obama had holes in his resume that he wanted biden to fill, and doesn't biden doesn't see the holes in his own resume because he's been around forever, and it leaves her stranded. >> it was a terrific read and definitely worth the time. congratulations. >> thank you so much. that's all we have for today. we're going to miss you, jimmy, all of us parrot heads. thanks for watching. we'll see you next week because if it's sunday, it's "meet the press." e if it's sunday, it's "meet the press. thank you for watching. and welcome to politicians nation. tonight it's arraignment week. all eyes will be split between atlanta and washington, dc, this week. and georgia on wednesday, arraignment day for the 19 defendants in the case led by fulton county d.a.

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