currently qualified to hold the office of president of the united states, or any elected office in the country for that matter? to start, let's go back 155 years to july 9th, 1868, went two years after passing the senate, the 14th amendment to the constitution is ratified. and within it, section three reads, quote, no person shall be a senator or representative in congress, or-elect or, or vice president, or vice president, or hold any office, civil or military, under the united states or under any state, who having previously taken an oath to support the constitution of the u.s. shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof. donald trump having incited an insurrection and having tried to overturn the results of a free and fair election, in violation of the constitution of the united states, is now constitutionally ineligible to be president again. that seems pretty straightforward if you read your constitution. so how does it get in forest? well, while rarely invoked or tested in courts, section three of the 14th amendment has recently been used to remove someone from office, and the case actually revolved around january 6th. in september of 2022, following a lawsuit by a group of new mexico residents, this guy, who we griffin, was ordered to be removed from his position as a terrell county commissioner by in new mexico state court judge, because of griffin's participation in the insurrection. he was previously convicted and sentenced to 14 days in jail. getting back to trump, can anyone file a lawsuit, like the case of griffin? well, yes and no. yes and that technically anyone can, but no in that not everyone may have legal standing for the kids to go through. case in point, bun intended, in florida, one such challenge was rejected on thursday by an obama appointed federal judge, who ruled that the injuries the plaintiff was trying to claim were not valid, and more importantly, quote, an individual citizen does not have standing to challenge whether another individual is qualified to hold public office. >> so then who don't have standing? recently, in an important piece in the atlantic and right here on velshi two weeks ago, two of the most important and revered intellectual legal minds of our time, the retired conservative federal judge j. michael luttig, and harvard law professor laurence tribe, two individuals who helped bring this argument and the public zeitgeist, argue that anyone in the state or federal level who is in charge of listing the candidates are, quote, obligated of the constitution to make the decision, end quote, about whether to put trump's name on the ballot. meaning in most cases, secretary of state. state secretary of state. in the last hour, i was joined by a friend of the show, michigan secretary of state joscelyn benson. here's what she had to say. >> we have already have some active legal cases pursuing the question of who has the authority directed me not to allow anyone on the ballot, who the constitution may disqualify. again, the final arbiter, they secretaries of state in various states may make initial statements, either for qualification or against qualification, or within the bounds of authority, the ultimate decider in this case is going to be the court. and really the ultimate court to resolve this is going to be the united states supreme court. and in that regard, we hope that decision, however it makes its way to the courts, comes sooner rather than later. >> and, of course, joining me again is j. michael luttig. he's a former federal judge on the united states court of appeals for the fourth circuit. he's a great friend of our show because he takes the time to expand these very complicated things to us. judge, it is good to see you on this labor day sunday. we appreciate you taking the time because it is such an important issue. secretary benson, you heard her, she said the end result of the 14th amendment based complaints that her office is getting and other secretaries of states are getting will be resolved in court. what's your reaction? >> thank you for having me with you this morning, ali. it's a pleasure. i have watched secretary benson at the top of the hour. and frankly, i could not possibly explain and describe the process that will unfold from this day forward defended secretary of state benson. in fact, her plan should be a blueprint for the nation. and in particular, as professor tribe and i have said over the past few weeks, that this case, if you will, is most appropriately brought by a state of the union, after which the secretary of state of that state would have either disqualified the former president from office, or not disqualified the former president from office, after which that decision would be unchallenged in either state or federal court. but ideally, state court, and make its way from there to the united states supreme court. however, ali, this is one of the most fundamental questions that could ever be decided under our constitution. and it will be decided by the supreme court of the united states sooner rather than later. and most likely, the first primaries, again, which donald trump would be put on the ballot or disqualified from the ballot by one of those secretaries of state. ali, before i may, the disqualification clause of the 14th amendment in section three of that amendment that you read at the top of this segment, the gravity of that disqualification is an insurrection or a rebellion against the constitution of the united states. it is not, according to the literal terms of section three, and insurrection or rebellion against the authority of the united states of america. and it is the fact that either, and likely both of those interpretations of section three, will ultimately be held to be reasonable, that the former president would under the law most likely be disqualified under the 14th amendment. the 14th amendment further answers good questions, a good question that has been asked by several of the nation's finest constitutional scholars, stanford professor michael mcconnell, among the most prominent, whether disqualification itself is actually anti-democratic. and professor mcconnell, one of the leading scholars in the nation, he happens to be a long time and dear friend of mine, everything that michael mcconnell asks or says shall be listened to very carefully. professor laurence tribe and i did. we addressed that concern of his in our atlantic piece. and i subsequently tweeted that in my view, the answer to that good question is that the 14th amendment itself answers that question as to whether disqualification is anti-democratic. and it answers in a resounding no. and it declares that it is not. rather, it is a -- conduct of disqualification referenced in section three that the constitution gains declares to be anti-democratic. i want to make this point to all of you listeners and viewers today, ali, every serious question asked by every single american citizen about this is good. we should consider every single question because of the surpassing importance of this constitutional issue for americans. >> here is one. in fact, laurence tribe tweeted about this. he said in a tweet, it's becoming fashionable for commentators to say that judge luttig and i are right as a matter of law, but wrong as a matter of politics. but deciding selectively to determine it politically inconvenient parts of the constitution is the surest path to democracy's destruction. i want to send that to you, because you are a retired judge. obviously, you've gotten to decide on legal merits of different cases. obviously, politics comes into play. tell me about this. the judge, judge luttig is saying, guys, hold off the politics for a second. as a matter of law, donald trump is disqualified. >> ali, i thought professor tribe's tweet just before i came on your interview. and of course, it is correct. but let me explain what professor tribe was referring to and why he is certainly correct. there have been at least several, or probably more than that, thoughtful, serious commentators on the constitution, and politics of america today, who live recently argued that we ought not apply section three of the 14th amendment, really for this reason, that according to one very knowledgeable, very intelligent commentator, the 14th amendment was frozen in time, 150 years ago. it's not been found out, i think, for his words in 150 years. and it would be wrong for us to unthaw it and apply it to the former president today. there are countless, uncountable, and unanswerable questions that would be presented. that is not a constitutional argument for not applying the 14th amendment. the 14th amendment, section three, it is a part of our constitution. and it must be applied just like every single other part of our constitution. and it unquestionably applies in today in the context of the former presidents efforts to overturn the 2020 presidential election. so, those arguments, as i said, are worthy of serious consideration. but they do fall into the category of political arguments against applying the 14th amendment. and they are not constitutional arguments. and they have not been offered as such. the supreme court of the united states is the authority to finally decide this question. that's what the constitution literally created and established as the supreme court of the united states. and this supreme court will decide this question, as i said, sooner rather than later. >> judge, what an honor to have our viewers get access to you and your legal mind. we appreciate your time again this morning. judge j. michael luttig, a former federal judge for the united states court of appeals for the fourth circuit. make sure to check out the addition of the trump indictments, 91 criminal accounts against the former president of the united states, which has the full complete unabridged indictments against donald trump. i edited the addition and wrote a forward which sets the scene, which and the context for it. it's been published on september 25th. it's available now for preorder. still ahead on velshi, democracy is in peril around the world, including in israel. i will bring you the information you need to know, plus white house vivek ramaswamy joined my colleague al sharpton yesterday to discuss his presidential campaign and address highly controversial remarks that he's made. the rev joins me next. s me next. hey choose t-mobile for business. mlb partners with t-mobile to not only enhance the fan experience, but to advance how the game is played. aaa relies on t-mobile's network to stay connected nationwide, so they can help get their members back on the road. and we're helping pano ai innovate, to stop the spread of wildfires. now's the time to see what america's largest 5g network can do for your business. rsv is in for a surprise. meet arexvy. 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(vo) learn more. it's your vision, it's your verizon. here's why you should switch fro to duckduckgo on all your devie duckduckgo comes with a built n engine like google, but it's pi and doesn't spy on your searchs and duckduckgo lets you browse like chrome, but it blocks cooi and creepy ads that follow youa from google and other companie. and there's no catch, it's fre. we make money from ads, but they don't follow you aroud join the millions of people taking back their privacy by downloading duckduckgo on all your devices today. >> here with manaus politicsnation hose through often all sharp and fresh off his interview last night with the gop presidential candidate -- good to see, what an interview that was. you know, i want to ask, you you are a presidential candidate, so you bring a certain shows a quote to these interviews that others can't but there are criticisms of -- -- his smooth, he is pretty good at trying to get his message across, what do you think of it? we're working hard to call him on the various things he was saying that i indefensible, or not backed up by, fact whatever word you want to use. what did you think of that interview? how did you feel about it? >> you know, both words would describe as -- and i want to sense that we first met 20 years ago when he was a student at harvard, a -- msnbc with chris matthews, and when it went viral, somebody dug up last week, i could not remember the challenge. so i wanted to bring back to him his critique of my running was that i never held a form of office, and that my -- for him to be involved in policy, and decisions i had been in, -- only voted twice in the last two years and having for president. that was the genesis. i wanted to really make him address calling a black congresswoman from massachusetts, and -- in the pot -- weren't with us of the modern kkk. -- >> that is wild. that is wild. >> did he even know what the kkk was? the kick it was a terrorist organization, lynch people, and if you have a disagreement on their words, how do you compare that with a terrorist group? and i found that he did not really try to defend anything. he tries to go around, it he tries to give you a flurry of words, and take you off what you are, doing and what i wanted to do for the rest of the interview is expose that he would not answer questions, he could not backup what he was, saying and i think that at the most substantiated thing he said if you want to call it substantiated, is when he brings in the -- that he would pardon donald trump for president. i think that is very important people understand, that he and most of the republicans all but two, said they would pardon a convicted felon. >> and i want to dig into this with you. i want to dig into this with, you have, because as you, know you have been with me in this area, studio i carry my indictments with me on the, time i carry the -- because you cannot talk about things that you do not know about. i want to play that particular exchange that you had with him about pardoning donald trump, let's talk about it. >> if you became president, would you pardon donald trump for any other crimes he has been indicted, four or convicted? >> on the current facts that we have, he is one of many people who have identified us someone i wouldn't pardon. i do not think that this sets a good precedent for our country, where -- >> you are saying even before he has political opponents in the middle of -- >> okay. there is a lot. here is an example. he is there's a lot of words. on the current facts that i have, i did not know what fact he has that unite don't have. these are the ones tonight and the american public have and you can download and listen whenever you want. he is one of many people that i would pardon, and brings up the middle of an election. donald trump says you cannot prosecute him when he is president. now he says you can't when -- you cannot prosecute him in the middle of an election, and guess, what if donald trump wins the election, he will say if you can prosecute him as president. it was not a whole lot there that made sense in his response, who obviously try to hold him to account for that. >> no it did make sense, first of all a lot of the avoidance and what you talk about the only evidence we have is what you have been shown. what is in the indictment. clearly any indictments, they say, donald trump -- anticipated the -- attempt to overthrow a u.s. election. you are going to pardon him? i want to be very clear, trying to use a lot of words according to -- the only evidence we have is with the prosecutors have released, saying these are the -- main to child evidence, and you saying the evidence of a person striking overthrowing an election, and in effect bringing us from attempted democracy to an autocracy, it is something you would pardon him to fast-track. i think it was something that is frightening when you look at the fact that all but two on that stage, republicans on the stage said it would endorse -- if trump in fact became the nominee. in american history, i have never seen anything as long as you commitment in a democratic process. >> we appreciate you conducting the interview the way you did, we did not -- so i encourage you to go see, it because he is in the news a lot, watch this interview, always great for you taking your time, particularly on a sunday morning. the reverend, host of msnbc's politicsnation. still ahead, democracy is in danger overseas as, well i will break down everything happening in israel that you need to know. know want luxury hair repair that doesn't cost $50? 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[♪♪] >> the three episode of the podcast is really good if i do say so myself, one of the most celebrated and prolific offense of our time joining the show. margaret atwood, her magnum opus, the handmaid's tale is almost -- with the topics that explores women's bodily autonomy, the environment, autocratic regimes, even book banning. we did not just discuss the hand main, still that would also wrote a modern adaptation of william shakespeare's famous and often been played attempt is and tackled -- any discussion of shakespeare's, worthwhile and especially when it is with margaret atwood. no episodes of velshi banned book club podcaster available every thursday. download and subscribe wherever you get your podcast. remember, reading is resistance. all right, still ahead on velshi, israel's democracy is in peril, you need to know about it. we have details ahead. tails ahead. ...because t-mobile helps pano ai innovate, so they can stop the spread of wildfires. now's the time to see what america's largest 5g network can do for your business. ♪ shelves. shelves that know what taste buds want. shelves smart enough to see, sense, react, restock. ♪ so caramel swirl is always there for the taking. tv: try tide power pods with 85% more tide in every pod. who needs that much more tide? 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prosecution for fraud, breach of, trust and accepting bribes. he's even changing israeli laws for reasons that appear to be entirely self serving. central to what it is looking like the collapse of israel sachs sense of a democratic system, i say extensively because millions of people, palestinians who live under the illegal occupation are subject to israeli persecution. and prosecution without its -- right to vote. the ones that french anti democratic ideological and religious movement, secured a stunning victory in parliamentary elections. before, so called government of national unity had -- support of a tiny majority of israeli arabs in the commission. it lost in hostile actions, it was not a big, last but it is a fragmented political system, enough to return the fragile coalition government with a far-right populist government, which now hold some of the country's most influential positions. with that, a threat indicted benjamin netanyahu returned to power. in a repeat of us intense there several times over the years, netanyahu's cabinet is at the most right wing and extreme in israeli history. it is so far reuters that mr. netanyahu of years gone by look moderate by comparison. one minister in his government has boasted he could take active measures against the lgbtq community without any repercussions from his base, but do not worry, even he has a limit. he said, quote, i will stone the case. neither minister has advocated for the -- so this is the kind of leadership that israel is dealing with right now, and benjamin and yahoo is once again at the helm of it. if -- salt on what many israelis believed to be the democracy, even though is as outstanding, before an apartheid, state not a real democracy, because only some people who live under the control enjoy its protections, and the delineation is whether your palestinian or not. however, many israeli citizens live with the aleutian, or legitimately call for democracy. and, netanyahu has undermined that with a judicial overhaul which essentially gives politicians those extreme far right politicians and his government full control over supreme court appointments. it also allows parliamentary freud to judicial decisions, the salt checks on the government's authority. the question is what netanyahu and has also national government plan to do with their power. safety, assume they will use it to target the already vulnerable palestinian population. some middle east experts say the government could use new laws to expand illegal israeli settlements, or even go as far as annexing the west bank, which is totally controlling it without offering its residents -- and at least, that would prove the argument that israel is actually an apartheid state. the summer though, netanyahu already approved plans to expedite construction of thousands of new settlements in the occupied territories. israeli settlements in the west bank are deemed illegal, but under international law, a finding that is not only ignored by israel and his greatest military financial support to the united states. brutal settler attacks on villages have increased an additional israeli military forces, that have been sent into the west bank by netanyahu, now known to turn a blind eye, and sometimes join in on the deadly violence that is not lasted for over a year, and that has reached levels not seen in two decades. so, israel has two problems. allegedly, and the corrupt prime minister pursuing political means to avoid prosecution hold on to power and they rapidly deteriorating situation with the palestinians. so when the white house confirmed last month that biden will meet with netanyahu this, year it raised eyebrows. at the time, the white house did not specify when, or where the meeting would take place. for israeli security officials, politicians, advisers, ambassadors, activists, and -- have all urged biden not to meet with netanyahu until he stops. -- and israeli tech entrepreneur -- said this to president biden, quote, i urge you not to meet him, not at this, moment not before stops attacks on israeli democracy, the democratic -- the with that mr. trump declared an american democracy, the war that president putin and his partner's declared on ukraine and the war that prime minister netanyahu and his racist partners declared an israeli democracy. we have the democracy of the world's most a united, president putin, netanyahu, and trump should be -- until the stop their attacks, and quote. it says a lot. when israelis are begging joe biden ought to use the office of the u.s. presidency to elevate their own prime minister, because they fear doing so would only further encourage netanyahu's dangerous behavior. this is a very delicate situation for the united states to be in. the u.s. and israel are allies, but -- israel's best friend, and u.s. taxpayer -- largely true, but the united states should not be rewarded bad behavior and a photo of is just that. just by switching. ooooh, let me put 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and rest between israel and palestinians, the worst fighting in the occupied west bank since the early 2000s. according to the u.n., nearly 2000 palestinians have been killed in the west bank since the start of this year. that is the highest number since 2005. apparently some 30 israelis -- there's so much impact, here are the perfect expert for this -- he is an independent journalist who has to get a case of experience covering the israeli palestinian conflict as well as the u.s. role in the middle east, and human rights and south america as well. also joining us, editor at large and -- fellow at the foundation of middle peace, professor -- of political science at the new york school of journalism and the author of the crisis of -- thank you for being with us. so, it is 35 weeks this has been going, on unit heart for many of, them there was a respite for a little while, netanyahu saw of these protests backed off a little while, then just left right into the breach, again and israelis are still very very frustrated. >> i would say that israelis are afraid and enraged. and, i think that what we saw last, night the images, the dramatic pictures you hard about, hundred thousand or so protesters in tel aviv, but there were protesters in 150 other towns and cities up and down the country. so some total of about 200,000 israelis on the streets for the 35th week in a row, and they don't seem to be stopping. as you pointed out, it does not seem to be, stopping it's efforts to basically perpetuate a major power grab. >> peter, you know, the expression or using tv, split screen, this is exactly what we got in israel right now. we have two crises at the same time. there is a domestic internal crisis about israel and its government, these people returning the protest, then this increasing crisis on tension between israel and the palestinians. give me some context around that second problem. >> well, israel's -- has been a thriving liberal democracy, from palestinian -- 80% of the palestinian under israeli-controlled west bank in gaza and -- their citizens, they cannot vote for the government that controls the, lives and so, from what i think is happening, israeli jews are struggling to prevent the erosion of their democracy. we have to hope is that this movement to protect democracy for jews becomes something more, it becomes the movement for democracy from everyone, just like in the civil war it did not start as a movement and slavery, but became a movement and slavery. these incredible protests for israeli jews, i hope will ultimately turn into a movement for democracy for everyone. >> and, you and i have talked about this, the frustrations palestinians have, i love that israelis are taking the streets to protect, marks the one, you do canyon vista, bit of the stuff that is happening, the experience as it relates to biden meeting with netanyahu, they have a dual effect. you are having major is really influential people on at the military, judiciary, to assist iffy both saying to, biden this is not a moment to extend your hand to benjamin netanyahu. i do not know if it will have the effect of making much manhattan who think about, it by giving you a sense of the overlap -- in israel. >> i thought it is critical, so go ahead. >> go ahead. >> i think that we have to mention in this context, 22% of israeli citizens are arab citizens of israel, arabs, christians, and others. their peers are also important. there has been some commentary in israel, there was free while, coming down the arabs are not sufficiently part of this protest movement. i think what you're seeing now is a growing link among the protesters in general, certainly last night i was at the jerusalem protest it was big and loud, and the part of it devoted to the big sign saying, there cannot be democracy without occupation. i think that is a line that is becoming more and more prominent all over. but i do have to say, that like many democracies, israel has flaws. to say it is not a democracy rather than -- is complicated, but, like the israelis fighting on the streets that include roots, and include abs, are fighting to pose various something that for them is essential, and for them i would say existential right now. >> peter? >> the reason it is important for biden not meet netanyahu, netanyahu for many years has told israelis that they can get away with doing virtually whatever they want to palestinians, without repercussions. now, if you meet with biden, now than the message is not just you can do whatever he wants to palestinians, but even undermine his democracy force really choose, without repercussions. that is essentially a way -- biden could therefore strengthen netanyahu, and strengthen his effort to undermine israeli democracy, even for juice. that is why it is important to not meet him. >> but the problem here of course is -- cohen, go ahead. >> i just wanted to add something here. the united states and joe biden in particular have taken very seriously their commitment to preserving the state of israel, to protect the state of israel. right now we are in this bizarre paradoxical situation where, stopping netanyahu has become one of the ways to preserve and protect the state of israel. that is the line joe biden has adopted. i believe biden and netanyahu will meet. netanyahu will state in about two weeks, because he will participate the un general assembly. what he is trying to finagle, it a white house invite for the exact reason that you said, you said priceless photo op, and it would be life-saving for him right now. and, this puts joe biden in a terrible situation where, you know, he is also facing election, republicans can accuse him of being anti israeli if he doesn't invite him over. on the other hand, it will be crushing for a majority of israelis if netanyahu does get this price. >> so this is a very big deal, this is the pivotal matter, that is there has been a lot of criticism of netanyahu over the years, for the eoc has been prime minister, in various times, and there has been a -- mushy level that criticism, it is really bad. you might be a bad person. now you have is really saying, it and you have republicans who are pushing back on democrats to do it. and, what you have with biden is the real problem. he has a real, alliance really has to rely saudi arabia, and -- he had the telling prime minister here again and and human rights person, and modi is an anti-democratic leader the biggest autocracy, so what do you do if you are biden? i think biden doesn't want netanyahu in the white house, but i think he has to -- >> the question is, how much of a political problem is it? the vast majority of democrats do not like benjamin netanyahu, the question is whether joe biden can reflect the will of most people in his party, not only don't like benjamin netanyahu, but do not support unconditional u.s. military aid to israeli government under control's millions of palestinians lack basic rights. an apartheid state by its own human rights organization. by the way, it is much more timid on this question of challenging israel over its human rights violation, and most democrats out there are in the country. i don't think he has much to worry about politically as people think, the question is whether he himself has the courage to basically lead into that fight. >> to peter's point, israel's ability or netanyahu's ability to be what he is today has been very reliant on support from the united states, both voters, the republican party, also to people in the united states. is there a turning point here? are enough people saying for don, unconditional support of israel, when israel's not doing the right, thing is not in america's future? >> i did not know the answer to that. you know, there's an apec delegation here headed by he democratic house leader hakeem jeffries, i asked that question. he said, absolutely not. nothing. nothing could in any way affect the ironclad relationship, right? but the truth is, there are more and more powerful voices in the democratic party. but interestingly, there are one or two republicans who have also urged netanyahu to basically put the brakes on what this judicial coup and what he is trying to do among them, david frieden who is donald trump's president to israel, even lindsey graham has made comments about netanyahu's judicial coup. so, again, peter might be right, the problem biden faces may not be that huge. i find, it i would find it difficult to imagine netanyahu given the way he is trying to crush the institutions of the israeli state right now it is hard for me to imagine him inviting him to the white house, but i'm not the chief of the white house. >> thank you for an important discussion, a lot of complex and nuance to it, and complexity, and i appreciate your analysis and experience. -- independent journalist and -- an editor at large in jewish currency the author of the -- new book on substack and the book the crisis of zionism. it does it for me, thank you for, watching catch me back in extended and sunday morning from 10 am to noon eastern. do not forget to listen and subscribe to the velshi banned book club podcaster, wherever you get your podcasts. my conversation with margaret atwood on the hyndman still much more is available right now. you have pacific thursday. do not miss it. stay right where you are inside region sake begins right now. >> donald trump pleads not guilty as mark meadows takes the stand. testimony from trump's chief of staff provides a window into a shaky defense in georgia. and, a warning about what a second trump term would look like. i will ask congressman adam schiff about the, and the arguments from could be removed from the bell under the 14th amendment. plus, rudy giuliani has been found leading -- the attorney for xi mohsen and ruby freeman joins me live. and later, most republicans continue to blame the plague of gun violence on everything but guns. senator chris murphy is here with reaction to what they are saying, and the biden administration is actually doing?