decide tomorrow when donald trump will stand trial for allegedly trying to overturn the 2020 election results. his campaign says that he has raised millions since taking the mugshot of the century. final confirmation. russia says dna test confirmed that russian mercenary, precocious in, was killed in a plane crash. questions remain about what this means russia's future. this morning, the country is left reeling after yet another horrific mass shooting. this time, and jacksonville florida. police say yesterday that alone white man opened fire inside a dollar general store in a predominantly black neighborhood, killing three people before taking his own life. the local sheriff calling the attack racially motivated. >> the shooter had off for third several manifest, as one of his parents, one to the media, one to federal agents. portions of these manifesto see tailed to shooters discussing ideology of hate. finally put, the shooting was racially motivated, he hated black people. law enforcement is advising that the shooter used a glock handgun and an ar-15 semi automatic rifle in the attack. at least one of the firearms had been painted with a swastika. investigators also believe he may have been inspired by a shooting that took place in jacksonville five years ago to the day. one another gunman opened fire during a video game tournament in the city, killing two. the fbi is now investigating saturday shooting as a hate crime. nbc news correspondent, marissa parlow, joins me live from jacksonville. marissa, what's the latest you can share with us? >> hey, katie, a lot to get. do we know the president of the united states has been briefed on the, as well as attorney general, merrick garland. as you mentioned, the fbi is looking into this as a hate crime. there is a federal civil rights investigation open right now. what we heard from the sheriff's office yesterday, we learned a lot. we believe that this is racially motivated, that this was something that was planned out. they say the gunman had a tactical vest. on swastikas were drawn on the gun, elise one of the guns that he had on his person. then he had messages, racist writings. he said the n-word several times, expressed as dire, blatant desire to, quote, kill black people. take a listen to some of what we're learning about the gunman who, by the way, has still not been publicly identified. >> the shooter was believed to have lived in -- county with his parents. he was involved in a 2016 domestic call in clay county, with no arrest. and 2017, he did have the baker act. >> for those who don't know, florida's baker act allows families and individuals in need of emergency mental health services to receive that. sometimes that can be temporary attention of upwards of 72 hours. we don't have further details on this individual, but these are some of the things that we're learning. just this at the scene,, katie for those who don't, know this is a predominantly black neighborhood here in jacksonville. we're just across the street from this dollar general store, where this all unfolded. on the other side of the camera, here there are so many homes, residences, there's a nearby historically black college where we learned that the gunman had made an appearance on that university. there is a shelter in place order for the students who were on that campus. we don't know anything further, but we know that aside from the four victims, including the gunman, no one else was injured in this. the government had turned the gun on himself, and had killed three others in the process beforehand. a couple of things here. you talked about the timing, five years to the day. the previous jacksonville mass shooting here. then in terms of tonight, there is a prayer vigil. and just a few hours, people gathering around those victims who also have not yet been publicly identified, katie. they will not be forgotten. that is something, of course, as we learn more, we will share that here. it is so important. of, course we want to learn about what happened, what the motives were, how this happens, but we want to learn and understand about the victims as well. katie. >> melissa, pardons for getting us started. joining me now is jacksonville mayor, donna deegan. mayor, thank you for joining us on such a difficult day for your community. i first want to get your initial reaction to this hate filled attack. >> well, obviously i'm heartbroken for my city. this is something that we have seen far too often. these mass shootings happen over and over again in jacksonville. certainly we have an issue with gun violence. this is a community that has been harmed over and over again. it's just heartbreaking to see it affect our community once again. >> police are saying, mayor, that the shooter was involved in the 2016 domestic violence incidents, and was actually wants involuntarily committed under florida's baker act in 2017. apparently, he was still able to get his hands on a semiautomatic rifle. what does that say about the need to make sure that common sense gun legislation is on the books? >> i am absolutely a proponent of common sense gun legislation. to me, god gives us our hearts to care, our minds to thank. at some point, we really need to look at the common sense of that to what our lack of gun laws, are lack of common sense gun legislation is doing. also the fact that we seem to, in florida, we're going backwards in that regard. if you look at, cities if you look at states, rather, that have permit-less carry, and i'm not suggesting that that has anything to do with this case, i'm just saying that overall we need to change the way that we look at to gun violence. we see a 15% increase in gun related crimes, and so i think that that is one piece of this. the other piece, katie, as we have to look at the ways, very intentionally, at the ways we're talking, at the rhetoric where you say, the laws we are enacting. it is incredibly important for us to deal with this hate. i think, first and foremost, the gun debate has been going on for a long time. it probably will continue to go on for a long time. in terms of what is driving this, just epidemic, we have to talk about the hate. how words matter when it comes to that. >> i'm really glad you said, that because it dovetails with what more subpar emma colleagues said that we need to remember the victims here. we just showed footage on the screen for our viewers. that's a broken community. now the grief is so palpable, you can see. that you can almost feel it through the screen. it is no secret that the florida gop led by ron desantis's governor, they have almost perfected the art form of dehumanization, of groups of people. people of color, other marginalized communities. to your point, the intentional kind of act of violence that was committed by the shooter who had manifestos of hate that used racial slurs over and over again, we are so politically divided right now. what can be done to unite our communities, and to cross these kinds of political divide so that we can stop this rhetoric of hate? >> well, katie, i'm not going to pretend to know what's in anyone's, harder why they do what they do in terms of legislation, or in terms of, you know, what really drives some of these policy decisions. what i will say is that i was elected to this office back in march, or back in may, rather. because i talked about unifying this community. we are incredibly polarized. the things that disturbs me, honestly, more than anything else, is that there are some people who still view all of this as a game. whatever needs to be said, whatever needs to be done, it's just a game to get as to political power. we have to, and i'm not even suggesting that that's a one-sided, thing i think that's a problem we have in politics today. i think we all need to start talking to each other, and seen each other. i don't think that nullifying people for offering thoughts and prayers is a helpful thing. i think that is an extraordinarily powerful thing, they were with this young man. prayers are needed. at some point, we need to look a common sense, we need to look at our speaking to each other, and we need to unify, all of us, across the political spectrum, to say hate has no home in our nation, and our state, or in the city of jacksonville. >> i've got less than a minute, mayor, i wanted to give you a chance. what are you saying to the members of your community, to your constituents, to the people as they wake up today? >> i will just tell them what i said to them yesterday. i raced immediately to the scene as soon as i heard this was happening, because i love this community. i want them to know that i am there, and that we are there, and that most of us do want unity. they are not forgotten. that's what i wanted to know today. that i am praying right along with them, that i will do more than that, and i will do everything i can to unify this community, to make sure that those same folks who seemed to be victimized and marginalized over and over again do not find that to be the case in the city of jacksonville. >> you know, jacksonville mayor, i know you have a lot on your plate based on what happened yesterday. i know you are also preparing for tropical storm. i am a sending my positive wishes that you all stay safe right now. thanks for joining us this morning. >> thanks so much, katie. >> keep it here on msnbc. we're going to continue to bring you the latest on the mass shooting in jacksonville florida. first, could we see a trial date shortly before the quadruple indicted former president? the latest in the hearing and the federal election interference case. breaking news, russian investigators saying they've confirmed that russian mercenary chief and putin faux, yevgeny prigozhin, was killed in last week's jet crash. was it revanche? don't go anywhere, you're watching the katie phang show. phang sw.ho (christina) with verizon business unlimited, i get 5g, truly unlimited data, and unlimited hotspot data. so, no matter what, i'm running this kitchen. 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(vo) football season is here. get nfl sunday ticket from youtubetv on us. a $449 value. plus, get a free samsung galaxy z flip5. only on verizon. here's why you should switch fro to duckduckgo on all your device duckduckgo comes with a built in engine like google, but it's pri and doesn't spy on your searches and duckduckgo lets you browse like chrome, but it blocks cooki and creepy ads that follow you a from google and other companies. and there's no catch. it's free. we make money from ads, but they don't follow you around it's yet another busy week for showing the millions of people taking back their privacy by downloading duckduckgo on all your devices today. the quadruple indicted, donald trump, and his not-so-merry band of indicted associates. tomorrow, fulton county, his former chief of staff, mark meadows, is going to have an evidentiary hearing to try to move his charges to federal court. he also has a pending motion to dismiss's indictments altogether. meanwhile, in d.c., the judge will be holding a hearing for trump's federal interference case. trump's legal team is hoping to push back to trial all the way to april of 2026, while jackson 's office is calling for january 2nd 2024 trial date. donald doing this legal dance while juggling a busy campaign schedule. if you think the ex president can count on guaranteed sympathy from the american people, well, think again. a new poll shows that most americans, three and five, said he should stand trouble for the republican primaries of the 2024 general election. joining me now, charles holden junior, legal analyst, civil rights attorney, and former prosecutor. christina brierre, associate professor of political science at fordham university. she is the author of black ethnics. the pursuit of the american dream. thanks to both of you for joining us. the trump stuff is important, and it's always going to be important for american democracy. what happened in jacksonville still really stays with me. i know, charles, you and i were talking about it and the break before we started, your civil rights attorney, you are saw a former prosecutor. there is crime element what happened yesterday. i also want to talk about what happened yesterday, briefly, i am going to ask christine at the same thing. we were talking about how the mayor of jacksonville said we have to be intentional but our words. i think about that, right? i have the luxury at this platform, and what i can say. how do you not be honest about what happened? charles, how do you not be honest about the fact that this white man drove 40 miles to target black people? how do you not have, how do you reconcile those concepts? >> that construct that you just described in terms of the inability, or the resistance to honesty is exactly what got us here, katie. we have a lot for false equivalency's to enter into this dialogue, and create space that legitimizes hates, that legitimize is racism, that legitimize has all sorts of ideologies that are intended to infringe upon the humanity of people who look like me. until we can be straightforward in our discussion, and calling those things out, that is the point that requires intentionality. it's the honesty about what you are trying to push in terms of denigrating me, my people, my community. that is not the same thing as me standing up and have been pride in who i am. the fact that we have gotten to this place is demonstrative of what we need to move and do going forward in order to begin to reverse the cycle. unfortunately, for as long as we continue to politicize these conversations, it's going to continue to happen. >> it's going to result in actual action on racist thoughts. it's going to become violence. christina, i really want to ask you the same question. it's the dehumanization for me, right? it's this idea that somebody could look at a group of people, minding their own business. innocent victims, shopping on a saturday afternoon. because of their skin color only, they can be targeted for death. what are your thoughts? >> katie, my heart is very heavy. my grandparents live just a few miles away from downtown jacksonville and a tiny town called yulee. i just, it's a beautiful place with some of the most fantastic people ever. i know that their hearts are heavy as well. katie, here's the thing. all of these things are interconnected. you can't have an entire party denigrating racial groups day in and day out. we shouldn't be surprised that there is a swastika on his gun. we have long known that there is a direct link with the people who are racist. we keep saying basically motivated, it's racist. racist actions and speech with antisemitism, anti immigrant sentiments, anti-blackness, all of these things are interconnected. we've got, you know, a governor, ron desantis, who does have blood on his hands because he is the one that is taking away education in the state to make sure the people don't know, black history is american history. plain and simple. he is the one who said the naacp, it's not safe for black people to be in florida. he said that was just essentially theatrically, we're making that up. all of these things that the republican party continue to perpetuate day in and day out about the others, the undeserving, people who don't believe, you know, don't belong in this country, how they have to take back their country. their supporters are listening. we know that there are into the teeth, and they're taking it out on innocent people on a saturday afternoon, living their lives, to know to be and this country. we know the time to have, again too many white supremacist, many black people who hate immigrants, who hate asian americans, latinos, and also jewish americans, it's all interconnected. sadly, we're seeing consistent lee since we started to do anything about gun legislation in this country. >> charles, i'm a try to be up to see, it was talk about civil rights. these poor people that were gunned down a murder, they don't have civil rights anymore, because their dad. how is it not a civil rights violation to have the codification of the denigration of an entire group of people? how is that not taking away the ability for citizen because they're black? certainly they don't have rights that are equal because there is a complete and almost legal construct that's happening too. these laws are being passed, and is somebody violates them, people say that it was, lots okay to do what i did. >> that's part of the issue. you have to look deeper at the entire legislative process and how policy is made. take for a moment, katie, a second to think about the contrast of the shooting yesterday, and awash in ten, of a march that commemorated 60 years of our civil rights struggle in this country. the fact that, from a policy perspective. , there have been incremental gains. we are still, from my perspective of individuals understanding individuals, fighting the same fight, we are still having the same conversation. where i'm going with us is until we understand that you cannot legislate my humanity, we will continue to have the cycle. that's why the conversation about our political discourse is so critically important. this is not just a policy discussion, this is not just a discussion about access. civil rights is all of those things. yes, that's correct. at its core, civil rights is an affirmation of my humanity, your humanity, everybody else. until we understand that stop playing politics with, that we will continue to have the same fight that let us from 60 years ago to where we are now. >> which we don't even know about what's going to work, considering what happened yesterday. let's consider too, it's not just civil words and a construct, at the, area its rights and law, voting rights acts that get gun bias in stripping court that undercut, and don't love for the enfranchisement of people. >> and that reinforce racist ideology because now it legitimize a set. the supreme court of the united states said that it's okay for us to do this. so this interconnectivity needs to be understood on all sides. >> christine, i want to go back to you on this. to your point that you made a few minutes ago, you have an entire party. not just the person, you have an entire party that excess that lives under this blanket of privilege security that they can treat people like it's okay to be marginalized, it's okay that we're going to whitewash an entire history. is that a solid political platform to run on? does that work when you campaign with this idea? desantis really, even though he's just jumping it down our throats in florida, it's not really working if you look at the america as a whole polls. >> no, not america as a whole, katie, you have to remember, the primary voter is oftentimes very different from the general voter. this is why we see this racist rhetoric from so many republican candidates. they are, hey, afraid of donald trump as a candidate, but they know that his supporters come out in droves during the primary. they're trying to get past that first hurdle. you know, to your, point the voting rights act, the civil rights act, the immigration act, those are all interconnected to. when you pull out the threat, and why you pull to threaten all of them. republicans are very well aware that for them to solidify their base, they need to go as extreme as possible. even though the data consistently tells us that most americans, more than two thirds of americans, support a woman's right to choose. there is no pro-life conversation. we're talking about choice or antichoice. most americans supported women's right to choose. most americans actually do want to have comprehensive immigration reform, and figure things out. both and a humanitarian, level and an economic level. you would never know that listening to the republican party, because they're catering to the most base level, revisionist history, sort of separatist wing of the party. slowly but surely, it's encroaching on more and more, across the country. it's really incumbent upon us to stay strong to our values, and to really try to get those people who are wavering for economic reasons, or whatever reason they may be wavering to help them understand that there is a larger project that the republican party has been working on for several decades, to roll back all the important legislation, and judicial rulings that have actually pushed forward as a nation to help slowly but surely become more inclusive. >> i want to apologize to the viewers who maybe wanted to have a trump-centric conversation, but folks, charles coleman, christina greer, this is brilliance. they can talk about everything, put it into perspective that makes it count for you, so thank you trials for being here, christina, thanks for spending the time with, me i appreciate it. coming up next, we will have much more on the deadly, racially motivated mass shooting in jacksonville, florida. congressman maxwell frost will joins me live to discuss. plus, russia, now confirming the mercenary chief, yevgeny prigozhin, was killed at last week's mysterious plane crash. what we know, and what it means for vladimir putin's grip on power. keep it here are, you're watching the katie phang show. ng show. safelite came right to us, and we could see exactly when they'd arrive with a replacement we could trust. that's service the way we want it. >> singers: ♪ safelite repair, safelite replace. ♪ (christina) with verizon business unlimited, i get 5g, truly unlimited data, and unlimited hotspot data. so, no matter what, i'm running this kitchen. 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(vo) football season is here. get nfl sunday ticket from youtubetv on us. a $449 value. plus, get a free samsung galaxy z flip5. only on verizon. we are continuing to follow breaking news out of florida. the fbi is opening a hate crime investigation after a lone white gunman shot and killed three black people at $1 general store in jacksonville before turning the gun on himself. the local sheriff called it a racially motivated attack, saying that the shooter, quote, hated what people. according to police, the shooters sent manifestos that detailed racial hatred to law enforcement, media outlets, and his parents. we also learned the gunman used a clock handgun, an ar-15 semi automatic rifle, excuse, me and the attack. at least one of the firearms has been painted with the swastika. sadly, we've been here before. time and time again. mass shootings have become all too common, america. nowhere is safe, no one is safe. in this latest incident, it's a reminder of why we need to take immediate action to prevent gun violence. as our next guest put sets, quote, we can't wait. another down day on gun violence prevention legislation. joining me now is florida congressman, maxwell frost. maxwell, it's always so nice to spend time with you. it's sad to have to spend time with you after what happened yesterday. i want to ask you straight out of the gate, your reaction to that racially motivated shooting that occurred on the same weekend that we are commemorating the 60th anniversary of the march on washington. >> you, know yesterday, when i got the news about the shooting before we had all the information, i was already enraged. we lost 100 lives a day due to gun violence. the leading cause of death for children's been shot. i quickly put out a statements about what happened and said we need action, right here, in florida, right now on gun violence, then a couple hours pass and we read about the swastikas on the gun. the fact that this killer, this murder, this racist picket went to an hbcu edward waters university to hunt black people there must turned away bob's security guard, and then went to the scholar general to hunt by people and kill them. i have to say that we have been talking about this and the state for a long time. same that the rhetoric from our governor, not just him, but the far-right fascist movements that he embraces, that he champions, it's going to start killing people. it's been killing people in our state. we have a lot of work to, do we have to condemn, and go back to iowa, call a special session so that we can focus on gun violence and racial justice. >> maxwell, i appreciate that point about what's happening in florida. i mean, it's no secret to those that are painted tension. it's been whitewashed. you have new curricula and school, it's going to teach students, children, that black people benefited from being slaves. you have dei, diversity programs that are being eliminated in florida. i mean, black people, they're being degraded to a level of not even being recognized as humans anymore. how can this just not make it easier for them to be viewed as, okay to murder. >> well, this is part of a playbook, this governor, we did an ad hoc hearing on this. it is the goal to consolidate power. the electorate is not on fire with this agenda. the electorate doesn't want fascism, doesn't want authoritarian leader. what they understand is that last year, 2022, 70% of young people voted for democrats. the right-wing are aware that. they understand the need to consolidate power now. they need to figure out how to implement a government that operates on minority rule. that's why we see things like the book ban, which you don't even need to be apparent to petition, and to have a book taken off the shelves and a school. you can just be anybody. they've wised up to the fact that the country doesn't want their rights taken away. doesn't want the far right wing running things. it is horrible across the state. we know in central florida, antisemitism is on the rise with the nazism art shame on the streets in central florida, and in front of disney. asian hate has been on the rise with hate related crimes with our asian brothers and sisters and siblings across them tire states. this governor needs to do something about it. we need to call the special session to come together. it's going to get worse. we said this above don't say gay, we said this about all this legislation. it's not just a culture war. it's not just a culture war. it's a real war. it's a real war on black and brown lives, on people of color. we have to not just call it out, but we have to use the power that we have. i think the department of justice will launch an investigation into what's going on in the state. we have power with the administration, and we need the administration to help us in a state of florida. it's more than just florida, it's spreading across the entire nation. >> maxwell, it's not just the communities of color, it's the fact that you see a swastika that's on a weapon of war. you have a governor who remains silent when those antisemitism that runs rampant in the state of florida. it's a blessing that he gives the antisemitism, because he doesn't stand up and say anything to make it stop. you have called, and you continue to call, as you just did now, for a move, something to happen, some kind of progress. you know, we can't even make progress on common sense gun legislation. you have to have the gun to affect the harm. you may have the thoughts, what you actually have to have something to make it happen. is it possible for compromise, maxwell, even on a federal level, for us to remain safe? >> i hope to god that we can compromise. i hope to god that we can come to the table to have the discussion. katie, that's the problem. they don't even want to have the discussion. when there was two mass shootings within a few hours and tennessee, one of their congress men got on tv and said there's nothing we can do. this is why i put my kid in private school. so they don't even want to admit that there is a problem. they don't want to talk about the solutions. integrates a situation where i'm going to congress, and were debating on hunter biden's laptop, and not the issues that the american people actually care about, the gun violence techs claiming the lives of our children. the climate crisis, the racism, the antisemitism. here is the thing, they're given passes to, much this governor will remove a black elected official from office. in another black, judge their very conservative, as part of the federal society, feel like he has a pass, he's okay with the black community. you, know the same governor will put out a tweet and say, i support israel, and then do nothing about the not cities that are marching on central florida. thinking that it's enough to put out the tweet. this is the problem that we have. politicians often time to get a pass with some of the bare minimum. there are issues right here, and we need to address them. >> nowhere is safe, so no one is safe. with you at the home, hopefully we can affect some change. congressman, maxwell alejandro frost. always a pleasure to have you here. thanks for joining me. >> thanks for having me. >> coming up next, mystery and moscow. the russian mercenary that led a brief coup against vladimir putin is now confirmed dead. who was behind the plane crash that killed him? and, still to come, what donald trump may be changing of how he gets his message across to the maga faithful. maga faithful. the coach. the manager. and the snack dad. all using chase to keep up with their finances. the coach helps save goals here, because she saved for soccer camp there. anddd check this out... the manager deposited a check. magic. and the snack dad? he's getting paid back. orange slicesss. because this team all has chase. smart bankers. convenient tools. one bank with the power of both. chase. make more of what's yours. 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(vo) football season is here. get nfl sunday ticket from youtubetv on us. a $449 value. plus, get a free samsung galaxy z flip5. only on verizon. we turn now to the latest news on wagner mercenary group leader, yevgeny prigozhin. the russian authorities this morning have confirmed the death of the russian mercenary leader in a plane crash last week, following genetic testing conducted at the crash site. u.s. officials are saying that based on their preliminary intelligence reports, sabotage likely brought down the aircraft. this, of course, comes two months after yevgeny prigozhin led a rebellion against russia's military before an agreement was reached that x out the mercenary leader. russian president, vladimir putin, offered his, quote, sincere condolences after the crash. saying the mercenary led a complicated life and, quote, made some serious mistakes. the kremlin, on friday, denied having anything to do with that, but president biden responded to the incident saying, quote, there's not much that happens in russia that putin is not behind. joining me now is russian and ukrainian history expert, kimberly saint julian-varnon. kimberly, is nice to have you on the show. we've got the breaking news, just within the hour before you appeared on the show. confirming that prigozhin's death by way of genetic testing. what is your initial reaction to this breaking news? >> i guess my initial reaction is that it's not that breaking a. and i figured it was yevgeny prigozhin. there have been interviews that independent journalism group out of russia did, they talk to mercenaries warren wagner, or mercenaries that used to be in wagner. they said that the man had attempted to fake his death twice in the past five years, but they said this time was different because the usual protocols from place. reading those interviews that medusa did, that solidify that to me long before the russian state, you know, said that it was prigozhin was on the plane >>. kimberly, now with prigozhin being, gone despite the failed coup that happened a few months ago, does this open up any type of space for somebody to kind of step into that breach? >> i think it does. puck ocean was a mastermind in many ways. he wore many hats. he wasn't just a warlord. he was also funneling and writing a criminal enterprise that was running across the middle east and africa. so i think it's going to have to be a multi pronged approach. i don't think it'll be one person who takes over wagner in terms of the military. i think it'll be a multi-pronged approach. whoever tries to fill that gap is going to have to be connected to the russian state. vladimir putin has learned the cost his entirely too high to have a private mercenary course that he cannot have control over running russia and ukraine. >> will we ever get to the bottom of this? if you're going to trust russian officials to be able to advise what happens, putin is saying that this is an accident, but a lot of accidents seem to happen to people that are opposed to vladimir putin. do you think we're ever going to find out the truth behind how proportions plane went down? >> i think we'll find hansen the truth. i think if we're going to find out the truth it'll probably be from western intelligence sources. the russian state has been looking at this as an accident. you have mentions of error vessels, or bomb being put on the plane, but officials are saying we have nothing to do with us. i think that's about as close as we're going to get to the truth. they admitted the plane went, down and prigozhin was not. and that's good enough for them. >> on friday, you want to talk about trying to solidify and protect your six, putin decree that any mercenaries that operate within russia's borders have to swear allegiance to the kremlin. this is not so subtle nod to that failed coup that prigozhin tried two months ago. how does this happen before in russia, this idea of trying to create a force loyalty oath? >> not necessarily a force loyalty oath, but we've seen this cooking in the books for a while. with putin and the ministry of defense, and private mercenary forces. prigozhin had a july 1st deadline for all of his meant to sign contracts with the ministry of defense. that was kind of what led up to the so-called march of justice that we saw in the late june. throughout the soviet period, it was less an oath of loyalty, and mourn expectation of loyalty, because the prices. high if the price had not been loyal to someone like stolen, and now we have seen this happen with prigozhin. this is not a new putin playbook, this goes back to the soviet period. the price of loyalty, and disloyalty, remains very high. prigozhin is just the latest example of that. >> the latest fatal example of that. all at that adjective for you there. kimberly saint julian-varnon, thanks for joining us this morning and sharing your insight. i appreciate it. >> thank you for having me. >> coming up, how the quadruple indicted former president is desperately trying to reach his maga faithful. media expert, brian stelter, joins me in the studio to write that all down. that's next. that's next. ...so he takes zzzquil. the world's #1 sleep aid brand for a better night sleep. 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(vo) football season is here. get nfl sunday ticket from youtubetv on us. a $449 value. plus, get a free samsung galaxy z flip5. only on verizon. >> donald trump changes up how he gets his message out to the mcguffey full. he skipped out on the first rollicking debate on fox on wednesday for a counter programming interview with ex fox news host tucker carlson. of course, trump's campaign boasted inflated views after that interview aired on x, formerly known as twitter. his team says he won the debate in dominating fashion with more views than the rnc debate. trump claimed a total of more than 100 million views. that number does not necessarily reflect the number of people who actually watched the interview. it simply refers to the number of users who saw the post. here with me on set to make it all makes sense is brian stelter, journalist and author of hoax. he also, here you go, has a new book coming out about fox news called network of lies. it's coming out this november and everyone's going to get a copy of it. brian, let's start with it. i want to understand. this he saying more than 100 billion views but that's not legit. make it make sense. >> why is this always about a measuring contest? why is it always about that for the former president? this is very much an example of his gross exaggerations which ultimately harm his movement. we've heard of the analogy of apples versus oranges. about 13 million viewers watched for the entirety of the two hours. trump's little twitter video, anybody who scrolls passed it in the social media feed, that counts as a view. there is no way to compare that kind of random interaction with actually watching the debate. he's out there claiming his interview was bigger than oprah which is an insult to oprah. there was this attempt to claim that he is so big and powerful. i think it undermines his leadership. it shows disrespect. it treats his audience like fools by claiming they are more popular than they actually are. >> what does it say that donald trump did not do the news debate and then went with ex fox news host tucker carlson who is now persona non grata? is that a clear break up between trump and fox news? >> today it is. tomorrow, i don't think it'll lassiter elon. i've interviewed folks i for the upcoming book. we know that trump falls away and he fights with us and he gets into arguments and he likes to back and forth. when it's beneficial for him, he will come right back home. the same is true for the murdaugh family. they have seen trump treated very seriously and downplayed his legal jeopardy all across the airwaves. there is some tension right now. it almost always comes back together. >> talking about coming back home, why go back to twitter? truth social is such a glorious paradise, than oasis for donald trump. why go back to twitter and why now? x, i'm sorry, x. >> it does reveal a vulnerability for the former president. he does not have the media megaphones that he had in 2016 or frankly even in 2020. he doesn't have that same ability to rally mass media attention. the only time that he is really getting on television now is when he is arrested. i understand the indictments are his campaign. the court houses are the new rallies. he's going to lean into that for the months to come. other than those moments, he's getting very little real news media attention. i suspect the reengagement with ex, it's a way to start to crawl back to where he knows he has some audience. >> we talked about your book. i'm very excited to read it. i also helped cover the dominion voting system. >> i was watching in wilmington. >> exactly. do you think that is actually chastened fox in a way that it is feeling dealing with donald trump in terms of this upcoming election? the big lie keeps on getting touted over and over again by trump. >> there are a couple of ways that fox has been chastened. one is a big way. there are a few other settlements also. this is one change that has happened. they don't broadcast trump live the way they used to. when they are pre-taped, they won't let him call him by phone anymore either. >> it's jammed. >> my reporting indicates that was a serious decision, a choice made by the murdaugh family and the executives to not let them sit in trump tower and call it in his pajamas what he did in 2020. that is a change. it doesn't necessarily mean a lot. i think it's notable that there have been some changes across the address. rupert murdoch said in his indictment that he thinks the people are crazy. he seems to know the truth. that truth doesn't always get broadcasting to me thus still have this maga media which is a cold lake support from the former president including fox. >> let's stay on the truth. tucker carlson said he could not stand donald trump, that he hated donald trump. donald trump, like a moth to a flame, goes to tucker carlson to be able to do this free recorded days before the wednesday debate interview. >> yes. i think trump needs to figure out something to get somewhere. he's not able to get the airtime he had before. he's aligning himself with these figures who are on the fringes of the internet. tucker carlson is the best example. he's trying to create new platforms, mostly not succeeding but trying very hard. i think for tucker it's a short term play for him on x. he is not nearly as big as he was six months ago. his rhetoric is not nearly as loud and impactful as it was six months ago. that's a change in the media landscape. someone who was very fringe but spoke to millions is back on the fringes. >> we are at the point where it's going to be a lot less about trump. we can't ignore trumpism. we will talk about why those grievances appeal to a part of the population. let's have honest talk about how big the base actually is. how many republicans are persuadable? how many are willing to take it better than someone else on a younger or newer candidate? i think we have to reckon with this every day like the network does with trumpism. that is still very much in our politics every day. >> there's a small part of my brain that is stuck -- >> am i crazy? >> i'm stuck in the donald trump in his pajamas doing anything. ryan stelter, thank you. as i said, new will coming out in november. he has a book out already which is called hoax. i want to thank all of you for joining me for two hours for the katy phang show. i'll be back at 8 am eastern on sunday. keep up with us by following us on instagram, tiktok, and x, formerly known as twitter. my friend ali velshi has the latest coming up next. d ali velshi has the latest coming up next. 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(vo) football season is here. get nfl sunday ticket from youtubetv on us. a $449 value. plus, get a free samsung galaxy z flip5. only on verizon. here's why you should switch fro to duckduckgo on all your device duckduckgo comes with a built in engine like google, but it's pri and doesn't spy on your searches and duckduckgo lets you browse like chrome, but it blocks cooki and creepy ads that follow you a from google and other companies. and there's no catch. it's free. we make money from ads, but they don't follow you around >> good morning. showing the millions of people taking back their privacy by downloading duckduckgo on all your devices today. it's sunday, august 27th. i'm ali velshi. 60 years ago tomorrow in front of the lincoln memorial in washington d.c., dr. martin luther king delivered his famous i have a dream speech. quote, i have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character, and quote. yesterday, three black americans were murdered simply because of the color of their skin. law enforcement is investigating yesterday's shooting at dollar general in jacksonville, florida as a hate crime. the three victims, two men and one woman, were all black. the gunman was way. the sheriff of jacksonville says the shooter, quote, hated black people, end quote, and left a manifesto detailing his disgusting ideology of hate, end quote. he used a handgun and as is always the case these days an ar-15 style rifle marked with swastikas. earlier this morning, my msnbc colleague katie fang spoke with the florida state senator tracy davis whose district includes jacksonville. >>

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