of failure. trump's rapid rise in politics it's a reminder and a warning about the corruption of power. trump and his 18 codefendants and fulton county sweeping criminal racketeering case have all now turned themselves into their local police. their reputations haven't been tarnished by their association with trump's desperate temps to cling to power. they are very liberty. now, in peril. that includes people who have reached great heights in their careers, like trite so anti suite of joe, mike meadows, the former justice department official, jeffrey clark, rudy giuliani, once name time magazine's person of the year, widely admired as america's mayor. lawyers like john eastman, kenneth chesebro, sydney powell, jenna ellis, that could've led prosperous lives. but their livelihoods are now into jeopardy for taking part in trump's scheme. meanwhile, it's all of this unfolded in atlanta this week, in another, state where trump tried to overturn the results of the election, the disgraced ex presidents power over the republican party could not have been more apparent. onstage in milwaukee for the first primary debate of the season, the majority of the candidates competing to succeed donald trump asked the leader of the credentialed party or forced to acknowledge that they would support the election of a conviction felon, if it came down to that. and it's looking like it could come down to that, as trump remains in deep legal jeopardy for a whole host of serious crimes. so, kicking off his campaign for a second term in the white house, trump has depicted himself as a political martyr. at his rallies, he tells supporters he is the only thing standing between them and the supposed eagles of the federal government. he's repeatedly proclaimed, quote, i am your retribution. but for all the bluster, the grandstanding he's exhibited on the campaign trail this year, in reality, trump needs his supporters more than they need him. he needs their money to fuel his presidential campaign and his legal defense, which is why his team was so quick to turn his mugshots into a fundraising opportunity. he needs their support to regain the power of the presidency, because it is the power of the presidency to escape as punishment for his alleged crimes. like others accused of heading a criminal enterprise, heat needs the loyalty of his codefendants in order to stay out of prison. though, as we just discussed, early motions filed by a handful of defendants may already be testing that. yesterday, sydney powell focus she's fearlessly, filing a motion seeking a speedy trial in her case. it's an effort that trump doesn't want to be a part of. a speedy trial goes directly against his history of employing strategic delays during that occasion. additionally, three people indicted in fulton county for serving as fake electors. kathy lifesum, shawn still, and david, schaffer all separately filed to remove their case to federal courts, and in arguing for the motion, all three directly shifted the blame for their alleged crimes on to donald trump. writing in their findings that they were acting, quote after direction off the president of the united states, end quote. joining me now, ruth ben-ghiat, a professor of history at nyu, the author of lucid, a remarkable newsletter following threats to democracy as, well as the very relevant book, strongmen, mussolini to the president. also with us. michael steele, former chairman of the republican national committee and an msnbc political analyst, the host of the michael steele podcast. good morning, both of you. thank you for being here. michael, let me start with you. charles coleman and i were talking a couple nights ago about the debate. and if donald trump are looking at a schedule for 2024 and saying wow, i've got an election to, run you know, primary to win, and i've got all these multiple cases, after wednesday night, he might be thinking to himself, i don't really have to worry too much about the debate situation or the primary situation. he seems to have a lock on that, because nobody came out of that thing looking like they've got anything that looks or feels like a knockout punch for donald trump. >> absolutely. the vast majority of the candidates on the stage are supposedly trying to take you out, saying even if he were convicted, they would rally behind you and support you? why would you show up? there is no political incentive for donald trump to step foot on a stage with any of them. he's got his little avatar in vivek ramaswamy, who will you know, spew out the maga bs. relentlessly. you know, and he capstone that by saying donald trump was the greatest president of the 21st century. so, vivek, why are you running against him? you're not. you're trying to be his vp. you want to cozy up and gets a little piece of the next administration. they all have their motivations. but those motivations to be president fall away when donald trump's name is mentioned, because like typical sycophants, they, bausch a, yes and what do you need me to do? what he needs him to do is just continue doing what they're doing. and evoking his name with reverence. and not doing anything that messes up his glide path too much to get to the white house. meaning, don't let me have to come after your behind. >> right. >> so the reality for them is they are stuck. the reality for trump is he is still, he still owns the path to the white house. >> ruth, we've talked about many times how this goes well beyond donald trump. certainly, the person we thought about is ron desantis, who's really been trying to show the trump base he is kind of trumpy himself. vivek ramaswamy, as michael says, is really the avatar. he raised doubts about 9/11, he obviously put forward conspiracy theories about january six. he is moving well into that role right now. for a young guy, an entrepreneur, an outsider who maybe had a chance to come into the primary and say, i'm a little bit different, he's not really trying to be all that different. >> no. he's a dangerous fanatic to be honest. he's bankrolled or he's been supported in the past by fascist billionaire peter deal. all of this is very dangerous. but his utility right there on stage was to be the trump defender. so, i want to talk about loyalty, because as you say, this goes beyond trump. it goes beyond america. what authoritarians do and trump did this beautifully, must make loyalty the most important political quality you can have. your status in the party is determined by your loyalty. we see that from kevin mccarthy. but that makes them feel safe. it makes him see him as untouchable, and if they're just loyal enough, they'll be untouchable,. too so, that's how we get to this disgraceful situation at the debate, where most of them said they would support him if he is convicted felon. and it's also how we get to the shock of seeing trump's mugshot for those elites enabler's. and that is why they are distancing themselves and doing things as the last segment detailed. , so the trump mugshot is absolutely fundamental to showing that he is not untouchable and he can be held accountable, just like anybody else. >> except in this upside down world in which we live, michael, that trump mugshot was put out, by the trump people. they took off a little sheriff's thing on the side, and he put it on to truth social. that, he put it on twitter. first thing, x, whatever it's called. the first thing is posted on that platform since he was banned from, at that, reinstated. they're selling bugs and t-shirts and beer koozies and all this kinds of stuff. ruth has made this point many times. donald trump is making himself into martyr. it looked like he posts and practice for that picture for a long time. i don't think they let you take mugshots over and over again. it's two different worlds were living in. trump world says, look at. me i'm ready. i am your retribution. i'm standing between you and everyone else. the rest of us think it's a mugshot for the ages. it's not how trump and his peeps see it. >> it's not, and that's why we have to crush it. we have to crush the ever living life out of it, because as ruth knows, this does not end well. this does not go to a good place. you're having the hardening of monica. you are having the hardening of authoritarianism. when you have, as you just noted, when someone like vivek just standing there, young, 38-year-old guy, coming out of nowhere, suddenly now propelled to the heights that he is propelled. there is no way in hell this man is going to be president, but that's not the point. the point is they are making the marks on this democracy. every day, they chip away at more and more offense, and the reality for all of us is how much of this are we going to take? where we just say, you know what? we are done with this. we need to put down this iteration of the gop. something else may come later, and we'll take a look at that, but this stuff? this has to be put down, and the fight for those still in the party and outside the party is, how do we convince everyone to get behind that singular efforts, because that mugshot, you have it mailed, ali. it is not just a mugshot. it is a symbol of where the country, where they want the country to go. that look on that face is a man who doesn't give a crap about any of you. none of you. your lawyers, the people who stood in line and given him $100, $1, 000, didn't care about any of you. what he wants is the power he gets from your loyalty. and the moment to consumes, as much as that as he can get, where do you go? then >> right, well you, know ruth, to michaels. point i was hoping i would see some of that debate, i was hoping somebody would come up and, say this is what the republican of the public and particularly. i cannot be reclaimed, the anti chris christie's, credit he tried. we went out, there he got booed more than he got here forcing it. but he said something interesting he said ignore the criminality for a moment because most republicans are ignoring the potential criminality. he said, just think about the contact. we shouldn't even be approving of this conduct. and that is also something he got booed for. he is trying to bring this back to, the republicans, we don't want association with the guy with us the things we know he does. forget about the, charles forget about what is going to be proved in court. we know who donald trump. this because, as my angela tells us, he told us who he was. >> yes, absolutely. but christie is not doing well in the polls because of that. that is not what they want to hear. i also thought that on the debate, when it was very interesting and said that they talked about the discussion of whether mike pence did the right thing on january six. and there was zero discussion of trump having put him in that situation to begin with. there was zero discussion of the news on capitol hill that had his name on. it and how they all had to run for their lives. all of the lawmakers, republicans and democrat, there was no discussion of that so yes the conduct issue is interesting but at this point it cannot be divorced from the criminality. and you, know as to where the lost chance to use that debate of where the party is, going the party is stuck because when you arrive at seeing that you would support a convicted felon that is a party that has descended into nihilism. and it has no future, really. >> thanks to both of you we always appreciate, ruth banned the professor of nyu and strong men from the miscellany to the president, the former chair of the republican national committee and the msnbc political analyst. both are great friends of our show. and we appreciate. you >> all, right coming, up 100,000 people expected to get in the capital. to commemorate 50 years since the march on washington change this nation forever, plus we've got this meeting of the velshi banned book club, featuring the work of literature that i can't even believe it's an option for. us william shakespeare's romeo and we hit. we will explore family ties, faith, love and the enduring cultural relic of the play with to shape -- velshi banned book club, does not have to stand. they're the first to, episodes you could spend a. thing i'm gonna tell you, early so you could go to your tv and do it right. now the first two episodes of our new podcast are available to stream right now featuring the retelling of another shakespearean play by the amazing author margaret atwood. margaret atwood (christina) with verizon business unlimited, i get 5g, truly unlimited data, and unlimited hotspot data. so, no matter what, i'm running this kitchen. (vo) make the switch. it's your business. it's your verizon. listen, your deodorant just has to work. i use secret aluminum free. just swipe and it lasts all day. secret helps eliminate odor, instead of just masking it. and hours later, i still smell fresh. secret works! ohhh yesss. ♪♪ age is just a number, and mine's unlisted. try boost® high protein with 20 grams of protein for muscle health versus 16 grams in ensure® high protein. boost® high protein. now available in cinnabon® bakery-inspired flavor. learn more at boost.com/tv my name's dan and i live here in san antonio, texas. my wife magda and i have been married for 39 years. about three or four years ago, i wasn't feeling as if i was as sharp as i used to be. i wanted to try something that was over-the-counter. i saw the prevagen commercials. after a short amount of time taking prevagen, i started noticing a difference-- that i'm remembering this, i'm remembering that. i stopped taking prevagen and i found myself slacking back so i jumped right back on it. i feel as if it's brought me back to the good 'ol days. prevagen. at stores everywhere without a prescription. ♪ ♪ ♪♪ voltaren. the joy of movement. ♪♪ want a smarter way to mop? introducing the new swiffer powermop. an all-in-one cleaning tool with a 360-degree swivel head that goes places a regular mop just can't. mop smarter with the new swiffer powermop. (christina) with verizon business unlimited, i get 5g, truly unlimited data, and unlimited hotspot data. so, no matter what, i'm running this kitchen. (vo) make the switch. it's your business. moments ago, the main program it's your verizon. started 60 years since the historic march on washington for jonathan freedom. close to 100,000 people are expected to convene in washington today, to pay tribute to the march. and on august 20th, 1960, threw roughly 250,000 americans of different strikes participated in what is known as the largest political rally for human rights in american history. it all combinate it in dr. martin luther king delivering his iconic i have a dream speech before the lincoln memorial. he said in, park, would we will not be satisfied until justice rolls down like waters and righteousness like a mighty river. and to the, state complete satisfaction has not been achieved on that front. the historic march has been commemorated with an event today at the -- including threats for democracy, criminal justice reform and voting rights. well, that's where we find nbc's antonio hilton, antonio you are planning to walk alongside people who are participating in today's event. tell me about, that done what you're seeing here, and right now. >> hey ali. well people tell me that they are here with urgency and we spent time with the people who come here all the way through north carolina, and people have worked with organizations. local churches to get carpools to get busses to bring them down to d.c. for. this after, them it's not a celebration, today is not a party. it is a re-dedication to the same message that he shared three days ago when he gave this famous i have a dream speech to a crowd of over 200,000 people. we are expecting, we're already seeing thousands of people here. but we're expecting up to 75 or 100,000 were going to take part in this march. and they say they are here for a whole range of reasons. from environmental justice, to book bannings and being a major motivator for many of the families and young kids who are here today. to health care and voting rights. and all of this is going on, them when we look at what happened to women's reproductive. right when we're looking at the local level, and school systems that are restricting lessons on race and diversity in schools. and there is some momentary, especially for some of the young families as they think about what they want to leave behind for their kids. and the need to rededicate themselves to the fight that dr. king lead. take a listen to the conversation that i had with some of the kid to commute from north carolina. >> i admire him because even when things got tough, he still kept marching and, no matter what they, did he just kept marching. and, yeah. that's it. >> what did you learn about dr. king? >> that he was a leader to everybody and that if he would in march, we wouldn't be here. we wouldn't be here. >> ali, i also spent some time today with a group of black veterans, who told me that they are here because they have spent their lives fighting for the country. fighting for democracy. and they feel like they're watching a be eroded here. and that they had an obligation to show, up to share their voices, their perspective on sort of the role that the black americans have played in defending all of our freedoms. not just for minorities, here in this country. but really for everyone. and, so this is sort of the level of diversity, the range of intergenerational lucky as people come and are looking forward to the speeches. but really to just be in community with each other as we figure out a path forward alley. >> i'm glad are there for us antonia, thank you for, that antonia hylton in washington d.c.. while india has successfully landed on a southern polo region of the mood. it's an area known as the dark side of the. mood the first country to do, so and the fourth country ever to land on the moon. the accomplishment came then less than a week after russia tried and failed to land at the same polar region, catching into the lunar surface. i was up to indialantic on the moon the plane said to be carrying the leader mercenary force crashed north of moscow. killing all on board. coming, up not discuss what it means for russia's political stability and the war in ukraine with senator chris coons of delaware. this is on the foreign relations committee. s committee. not only enhance the fan experience, but to advance how the game is played. now's the time to see what america's largest 5g network can do for your business. what do we always say, son? liberty mutual customizes your car insurance... so you only pay for what you need. that's my boy. ♪ stay off the freeways! only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ permission to dig in? granted. breyers carbsmart is so rich, so creamy, it tastes totally off-limits. but with only 4 grams of net carbs in every delicious serving, you've got the green light. better starts with breyers. my frequent heartburn had me taking antacid after antacid all day long but with prilosec otc just one pill a day blocks heartburn for a full 24 hours. for one and done heartburn relief, prilosec otc. one pill a day, 24 hours, zero heartburn. meet the future. a chef. a designer. and, ooh, an engineer. all learning to save and spend their money with chase. the chef's cooking up firsts with her new debit card. hungry? -uhuh. the designer's eyeing sequins. uh no plaid. while mom is eyeing his spending. nice. and the engineer? she's taking control with her own account for college. three futures, all with chase. freedom for kids. control for parents. one bank for both. chase. make more of what's yours. after advil dual action back pain... yo! uh! ha! ha! [dog bark] what? my back feels better. before advil... new advil dual action back pain fights back pain two ways. for 8 hours of relief. age is just a number, and mine's unlisted. try boost® high protein with 20 grams of protein for muscle health versus 16 grams in ensure® high protein. boost® high protein. now available in cinnabon® bakery-inspired flavor. learn more at boost.com/tv right now get a free footlong at subway. like the subway series menu. buy one footlong in the app, get one free. for freeee. that's what i'm talking about. order in the subway app today. pano ai chooses t-mobile for business for 5g solutions... ...because t-mobile helps pano ai innovate, so they can stop the spread of wildfires. now's the time to see what america's largest 5g network can do for your business. it's a busy summer for yevgeny prigozhin. the former oligarch turned founder of the brutal lucian mercenary force. following months of intense, fighting that yielded almost nothing on the ground. but massive amounts of debt. russia led by prigozhin's wagner force finally captured the no room in a city of bakhmut in eastern ukraine. and not to the days later, prigozhin claimed that his forces in ukraine were deliberately bombed by russian troops. by the personal order of the defense minister, and that's important to note that prigozhin has publicly put out his hatred for shoigu and the head of russia's armed forces and blamed them for russia's favors in ukraine, as well as wagner's heavy losses. prigozhin then led a mutiny, crossing the border into russia capturing the southern military headquarters of a russian armed forties. prigozhin and wagner received a welcome from the local citizenry, before then turning his troops on a march to moscow. they made a roughly halfway to little to no resistance, before apparently been convinced by belarusian president, alexander lukashenko to call it off and take refuge in delivers. after arriving he gets, easy precautions stayed out of sight with reports indicating it may have even gone back to russia and might have even met with vladimir putin. then this, week prigozhin popped up in the central african republic in africa. a part of the world -- russian media officials reported on the passenger manifest of the small private jet linked to the wagner group crash north of moscow killing all on board. u.s. officials tell nbc news that sabotage or some sort of explosion brought down the jet. the washington institute for -- sea that is likely the kremlin orchestrated the incident, and that quote, the assassination of wagner's top leadership was likely active final step to eliminate wagner. as an independent organization. unquote. and now the kremlin is denying any involvement in the statement sending it quote it's sincere condolences, to prigozhin's family and vladimir putin, says, impart that prigozhin is a quote person with a complicated background who made serious mistakes in his life. and a quote joining me now the democratic senator chris coons of delaware. he sits on several committees including the foreign relations committee. which means that it's possible that he has information to which we are not -- but tell me what you can tell us about yevgeny prigozhin. do we know that he is dead and do we know that he was assassinated? >> well, ali thank you so much for a chance to be on the. show this has been a critical development for the future of wagner. and it reflects, i believe, putin's determination to exact revenge on both prigozhin personally and the leader of wagner for their mutiny. and i will remind you that putin has,, recently called for a written loyalty pledge from ebony wagner fighter, and though convenient i'm not all surprised that the entire leadership of wagner was on that one plane that came down suddenly. we don't have clear confirmation that putin ordered the plane to be destroyed but i would not be surprised at all. if it's with a long pattern of putin reaching out, both overseas and domestically to attack or assassinate his critics and his opponents for those who challenge him domestically. or who leave russia and tried to speak out against putin and his brutal role. so the path forward is not that clear. but what is clear is that putin intends to bring them to heal and this weekend's their effort in ukraine because wagner was among the most defensive of fighting. forces and they've been a critical part of his efforts to prop up dictators in syria and to extract resources from countries like the central african republic. burkina faso and nigeria, so i think that putin shows, once, again how aggressive, effective in brutal he can be at regressing people. but i'll remind you in closing that part of why prigozhin was so upset and so agitated was that they were not making more progress in the war in ukraine. that's a tribute to president biden, to the nato forces and to the rest of our partners and allies around the world who have sent so much support to ukrainians in her fighting bravely against the brutal russian invasion of eastern ukraine. >> well actually senator, we're gonna look back at this and look at joe biden who literally lifted humpty-dumpty that was nato. and put him back on the wall and became this remarkable fighting for, us wednesday night we're watching this debate where they're actually doing one of the united states should be supporting ukraine in this war. there is a real, fair by the way that if one of these republican candidates or donald trump becomes president again that american support for ukraine will collapse. and i suspect that ukraine will be taken over by russia within hours of inauguration. if donald trump or someone likes him becomes president again. >> i think the ukrainians will fight fiercely and if they lost art support, i agree it would make the future prospects dimmer and i don't think it would be. hours i think they would put up a very tough fight for a long time. but without our financial resources, and without the weapons and other support that they have gotten from partners around the world dozens and dozens of countries, ali not just nato as well without that support in a very difficult for the ukrainians in the long run to hold off the much larger army and the much larger countries of russia under vladimir putin. and so i do think that funding our presidents request is an additional appropriation for ukraine when congress returns to session next month it's a critical next up for us and one thing i want to remind your viewers for us is that, our allies and partners around the world have contributed as much as the united states. and that is to the defense and vitality of ukrainian resistance against the russians. >> as you point, that is not just. nato is a whole lot of other countries involved in. this this, week russia said it shot down 42 ukrainian drones targeting crime. yet it also shut down a missile outside of moscow. and this is a link the strength of john, attacks on around moscow which had various degrees of success and it's joining denmark in another. linda gonna be sending f-16s to ukraine. the f-16s are the last piece of military, equipment that they have requested. once they are, in and trained probably six months down from the road from now, can they decisively when this war? >> i think that that is just another important, tool in their tool kit of missiles and of drones, of armored vehicles and air defense an air offense capabilities. i think what would make the outcome more likely to be in their favor is to sustain support. they need more training, they need more resources, they need more weapons. the f-16s will help with ukrainian security, now going forward. but, frankly at the end of the day what really matters is the heart of the ukrainian. people their first determination to take back control of that 20% of their country that russia has currently occupied. and the weapon systems matter. the support matters. but frankly their patriotism, their courage, and their determination even on the face a very large battlefield losses and so it gives me optimism that ukraine will restore their sovereignty. >> senator, always good to see you, the democratic senator of the foreign relations committee and a quick programming note. presents the latest installment of the documentary series the turning point and he ends up following the hearing during of afghanistan's national soccer team. who fled taliban control after the u.s. troops withdrawal. it is remarkable. watch him tomorrow, night tempe am eastern right here on msnbc. and we will stream thereafter on peacock. all, right today's meeting the velshi book club is nearly here and we're opening the covers of romeo and juliet. the original star crossed lovers. romeo and juliet is more than a classic, in the touchstone of the english speaking world. and one that simply deserves to be red, studied, and we are doing just that with two amazing shakespeare scholars. shakespeare scholars th verizon business unlimited, i get 5g, truly unlimited data, and unlimited hotspot data. so, no matter what, i'm running this kitchen. (vo) make the switch. it's your business. it's your verizon. (dad) we got our subaru forester wilderness to discover all of the places that make us feel something more. (vo) subaru is the national park foundation's largest corporate donor, helping expand access for all. moderate to severe eczema still disrupts my skin. despite treatment it disrupts my skin with itch. it disrupts my skin with rash. but now, i can disrupt eczema with rinvoq. rinvoq is not a steroid, topical, or injection. it's one pill, once a day. many taking rinvoq saw clear or almost-clear skin while some saw up to 100% clear skin. and, they felt dramatic and fast itch relief some as early as 2 days. that's rinvoq relief. rinvoq can lower your ability to fight infections, including tb. serious infections and blood clots, some fatal, cancers including lymphoma and skin cancer, death, heart attack, stroke, and tears in the stomach or intestines occurred. people 50 and older with at least one heart disease risk factor have higher risks. don't take if allergic to rinvoq, as serious reactions can occur. tell your doctor if you are or may become pregnant. disrupt the itch and rash of eczema. talk to your doctor about rinvoq. learn how abbvie can help you save. so i didn't think i needed swiffer, until, i saw how easily it picked up my hair every time i dried it! only takes a minute. look at that! the heavy duty cloths are extra thick, for amazing trap & lock. even for his hair. wow. and for dust, i love my heavy duty duster. the fluffy fibers trap dust on contact, up high and all around without having to lift a thing. i'm so hooked. you'll love swiffer. or your money back! shingles. some describe it as an intense burning sensation or an unbearable itch. this painful, blistering rash can disrupt your life for weeks. it could make your workday feel impossible. the virus that causes shingles is likely already inside of you. if you're 50 years or older, ask your doctor or pharmacist about shingles. (christina) with verizon business unlimited, i get 5g, truly unlimited data, and unlimited hotspot data. so, no matter what, i'm running this kitchen. (vo) make the switch. it's your business. it's your verizon. from the first few, lines of william shakespeare, romeo and juliet. the reader already knows what will become of our young protagonist. quote, two households, both elected dignity in fair verona where we lay our scene from ancient grudge break to new mutiny. where several blood mixed several hands unclean. from fourth the fatal lines of these two foes, a pair of star crossed lovers take their life. who's misadventures piteous overthrows. do with their death berry. their parents strife, and quote. one of shakespeare's most popular most propose famous, blaze romeo and juliet explores familiar ties, the inevitability of's faith, the power of love. it's typically beloved or derided. shakespeare enthusiasms. and now it's all but removed from some florida classrooms. hillsborough county said it will assign only excerpts of romeo and juliet and not the entire play in order to comply with governor ron desantis education restrictions. which regulates books with so-called sexual content. for that reason, and shakespeare romeo and juliet is today's feature on the velshi banned book club. romeo and juliet becomes -- numb forbidden romance that precedes shakespeare based on an italian, palm shakespeare added tension in his retelling by expanding on minor characters. like juliet, paris, and romeo's friend mark cuchillo. adding some plots and creating a dramatic structure that switches between comedic, tragic, and 400 years later the place still captures the innately youthful belief that love is powerful. a source of rebellion, and inescapable destiny and a means to freedom. one of the primary sources of romeo and juliet's familial obligation. the parents and guardians figures like juliette centers are portrayed as authority. upholding a long-standing structure that their children do not support which is never explain to the reader. like romeo and, juliet we are expected to simply accept the feud between the montague's and the capulet's at face value. at its core romeo and juliet asked the question that so many teenagers have asked themselves, do i disobey my parents for what i want most? for love? because it is shakespeare, the dichotomy between the older generation -- it is complex and deliberate. romeo and juliet's age is not an afterthought. for juliette, especially comes up again and again. we see a development in romeo. his son that's become more complex as the play goes on and as he matures. the other for that work in romeo and juliet's fate. faith is the unseen character guiding romeo and juliet, the tragic timing of julia to weakening and romeo suicide. star crossed lovers is so much a part of our lexicon that it's easy to forget that shakespeare coined that phrase to depict feats full love in those first few lines aren't earlier. it's really no surprise that each generation has a defining adaptation of romeo and juliet. the iconic movie, the dire straight some, broadway's westside story, the cartoon no meal and juliet and love story by taylor swift. but perhaps this traditional and, at least for the students in florida, who will only ever read out of context fragments of romeo and juliet in school. those students won't have an opportunity to decide if the heater love the play if they feel juliette is misunderstood, or they feel inspired to create something new from the star crossed lovers. lovers who have moved so many before them. shakespeare does that. literature, especially challenging literature does that. i've said before, during meetings of the velshi banned book club, every objection found within the pages of a band book can be found more quickly and more easily on your child's phone. but that isn't true of romeo and juliet, or with any shakespearean play for that matter. the internet is fast. but there is no google search that will turn up the same result that you would get from actually reading romeo and juliet. right after a quick break, i am joined by two experts on the, play professor jeffrey wilson. a shakespeare scholar at harvard university, and sophie duncan, research fellow and dean at university of oxford. and author of searching for juliette, the lives and death of shakespeare's first tragic heroine. don't go anywhere. this is the velshi banned book club. book club ...to not only enhance the fan experience, but to advance how the game is played. now's the time to see what america's largest 5g network can do for your business. i'm not just accomplished. i am accomplishing. so i'm doing all i can to help lower my risk of breaking a bone. for postmenopausal women with osteoporosis at high risk for fracture taking calcium and vitamin d may not be enough. adding prolia® is proven to help strengthen bones and reduce spine fracture risk by 68% with 1 shot every 6 months. do not take prolia® if you have low blood calcium, are pregnant, are allergic to it, or take xgeva®. serious allergic reactions like low blood pressure, trouble breathing, throat tightness, face, lip or tongue swelling, rash, itching or hives have happened. tell your doctor about dental problems as severe jaw bone problems may happen with prolia®, or about pain in your hip, groin, or thigh, as unusual thigh bone fractures have occurred. talk to your doctor before stopping, skipping, or delaying prolia®, as spine and other fractures have occurred. serious side effects, like low blood calcium, serious infections which could need hospitalization, skin problems, and severe bone, joint, or muscle pain have occurred. i have so much more to accomplish. talk to your doctor about prolia®. i'm saving with liberty mutual, mom. they customize your car insurance so you only pay for what you need. you could save $700 dollars just by switching. ooooh, let me put a reminder on my phone. on the top of the pile! oh. only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ my frequent heartburn had me taking antacid after antacid all day long but with prilosec otc just one pill a day blocks heartburn for a full 24 hours. for one and done heartburn relief, prilosec otc. one pill a day, 24 hours, zero heartburn. (wheezing) asthma isn't pretty. it's the moment when you realize that a good day... is about to become a bad one. but then, i remembered that the world is so much bigger than that, with trelegy. because one dose a day helps keep my asthma symptoms under control. and with 3 medicines in 1 inhaler, trelegy helps improve lung function so i can breathe easier for a full 24 hours. trelegy won't replace a rescue inhaler for sudden breathing problems. trelegy contains a medicine that increases risk of hospitalizations and death from asthma problems when used alone. when this medicine is used with an inhaled corticosteroid, like in trelegy, there is not a significant increased risk of these events. do not take trelegy more than prescribed. trelegy may increase risk of thrush and infections. get emergency care for serious allergic reactions. see your doctor if your asthma does not improve or gets worse. ♪ what a wonderful world. ♪ ask your doctor about once-daily trelegy for asthma - because breathing should be beautiful. pano ai chooses t-mobile for business for 5g solutions... ...because t-mobile helps pano ai innovate, so they can stop the spread of wildfires. now's the time to see what america's largest 5g network can do for your business. today's meeting of the velshi banned book club is underway. i'm joined by two romeo and juliet excerpts, professor jeffrey wilson is a shakespeare scholar at harvard university. and dr. sophie duncan, a research fellow and dean for mail-in college at the university of oxford. she's also the author of the newburgh, searching for juliette. the lives and death of shakespeare's first tragic heroine. thanks to both of you for being with. that's what an exciting time. william shakespeare, wasn't available. but we're glad that you to. we're doctor duncan, let me ask, you i touched on the intergenerational relevance of romeo and juliet in the introduction and all of shakespeare's flags and sonnets have universality. that makes them classics, and in your estimation what is it about romeo and juliet that continues to resonate as much as it does. ? >> i think because shakespeare has such a tremendous sympathy for romney onto the, yet one of the things that he changes about his sources is that he really squarely blames the parents. we think of the teenager as something that is a kind of product of the 1960s and that generation, but in fact. i say that he invents the teenager. lots of people maybe until now and counted this place for the first-time, as teenagers. and, after that, i think that there's something wonderfully nostalgic about the idea of first love. which, means this is a play we enjoy returning to. professor wilson, let's talk about the balcony scene. probably the most famous scene in english literature. i'm gonna read the first two lines of. it but, soft what light through yonder window breaks? it is the, east and julia is the son. talk to me about this moment. in the play what has made that seen unusually iconic. >> well, romeo and juliet, embroiled in controversy. controversies going on in florida. controversy in 1968 with the effort with the the biggest controversy in the service circles ribbon and, the word balcony never appears in the text of roman juliet. and, to me, there is not any more iconic associated moment with this play, arguably, with all of shakespeare, then the balcony scene in romeo juliette, i suppose it speaks to the way in which we in the audience will project what we do with shakespeare's text. back on to shakespeare's intent. >> i like that. dr. duncan, one member of the velshi banned book club from vermont row with us with his reaction to romeo and juliet, quote, my biggest concern at the plate was always the glorification of suicide for unrequited love. these are two young teens, kept apart by the parents, who chose to kill themselves rather than be a part. i always thought there needed to be a serious discussion of why shakespeare made that the ending, as if suicide is a solution to any problem, of course not, he says in parentheses. and how young hearts heal and things really do get better. your take on that? >> i think it's such an important point. too often, i think that roman juliet story is used to glorify toxic ideas about love, that love hurts. you know, you need to fight for love, turning against everyone you've known before is romantic. i think the idea that the plague laura flies suicide is because of how film and production since have presented it. if you read the play, the ending isn't romantic. it's a mess. juliet kills herself out of panic, because she's been abandoned by fire lawrence, her confidant. she doesn't want to become a none. and the reason the lovers kill themselves, and i think it's very much to show, for shakespeare, showing the parents how senseless and terrible the cost of their feud is. it's not a glorification of the romance, it's the consequences of the senseless feud between the families. >> jeff, your take on that? >> -- romeo juliette, sort of asked to me, four key questions. so, first is, is the love of romeo juliette something to pursue, or something to avoid? second, how do we as parents handle our children shift from subjects who we can control and protect, into self determining adults who are frequently horny. and third, what happens when children with poor skills of emotional problem solving, which stuff is talking, about have easy access to lethal weapons. fourth, what are the prospects for social reform after partisan politics lead to the death of children? >> well said. dr. duncan, in your book, i want to go forward what you just said. he said it wasn't a romantic ending, it was a mess. in your book, searching for julia, you know that juliet dies because, in your words, quote, a series of bad decisions made by men, romeo kills tibet, which leads to his banishment. her father emotionally abuses her and accelerates her forced, bigamist marriage. these events prompt fryer lawrence's chaotic and ultimately derailed plan. this is not a typical reading of romeo and juliet. >> no, but i think it's a reading that shakespeare's first audiences would have understood. i think jeffrey's point is excellent, this is a love which is to be pursued or avoided? and for many reasons, shakespeare's first audiences would've understood this is a love which is to be avoided, they don't know each other, the families are not functioning at all well. in the elizabethan era, when shakespeare wrote the play, one of the markers, to be ready for marriage, you had to be behaving and thinking in functioning as an adult. since neither romeo nor julia's yet capable of behaving that way, they end up rather than becoming proper married couple in pursuing a real marriage, they end up being buffeted, and juliet, in particular, by the decisions of the men around them. i mean, julie it is so sheltered. this is a girl who only believes her parents had to go to church. this is a girl who doesn't seem to know anybody in her city. she's painfully isolated. i think this is a reading before romance. the play was always hugely successful in shakespeare's day. but i think it was understood far more as a tragedy, as a shocking play, rather than a vision of any kind of aspirational love story. >> jeff, one particularly memorable moment from the play is a warning from fryer lawrence to romeo. these violent delights have violent ends, and in a triumph die, like fire and powder. which as they kiss consume. the sweetest honey is load some in its own deliciousness. and in the taste, confound the appetite. therefore, love moderately. long love dot so. two swift arrives as tardy as to slow. not only is this really the crux of the play, don't act compulsively for love, the language is kind of amazing to, jeff. >> yeah, moderation was one of the ideals of renaissance ethics. so, the idea of the arrest of hilly golden mean, don't be too hot, don't be too cold. don't be too fast, talk to slow. shakespeare, as you discussed, is adapting this play from an earlier text by arthur -- in some 30 or 40 years earlier. he takes a romance that develops over the course of a year and conscious it down into three days. so, the speed with which romeo and juliet fall in love with each other draws people to question whether or not this is genuine love. could it be genuine love. because romeo is just coming off this apparently terrible breakup that he had yesterday with rosalynn. now, he is head over heels in love with juliette. yet, when you see those moments, when you see the balcony scene, when you see the poetry between romeo and juliet, it's really hard not to get wrapped up with the passion that they express for each other. with the sincerity of the happiness that they find in each other. so, you have this tension mounting, asking what does it mean to love moderately. that's tied up with the speed in which they fall in love. >> i'm so grateful to the two of you for bringing us back to life for us. jeffrey wilson, shakespeare's colored harvard university. and dr. sophie duncan, research fellow indian for mcgill in college at the university of oxford and author of the new book, searching for juliette. the lives and deaths of shakespeare's first tragic heroine. romeo and juliet isn't the only play that's faced the ire of book banners this week on the velshi banned book club podcast, we've given even more shakespeare, featuring the tempest. the first of shakespeare's comedies and one of my favorite place. the amazing margaret atwood is going to join me to discuss the importance of the tempest, and her modern adaptation of it called hegg seed. so many reasons to study shakespeare, including lasting cultural influence, historical significance, and grasp of the english language. the word shakespeare invented, the phrases he's coined, are still part of our lexicon today. more than 400 years later. the next episode of the velshi banned book podcast is available to stream this thursday. until then, check out the first two episodes, which have already dropped. listen and follow wherever you get your podcasts. that does it for me, thank you for watching. you can catch me back here tomorrow morning from 10 am to noon eastern, right now, stay where you are. alex witt reports joins me, alex witt reports starts right after a quick break. (christina) with verizon business unlimited, i get 5g, truly unlimited data, and unlimited hotspot data. so, no matter what, i'm running this kitchen. (vo) make the switch. it's your business. it's your verizon. tv: try tide power pods with 85% more tide in every pod. who needs that much more tide? (crashing sounds) everyone's gonna need more tide. it's a mess out there. that's why there's 85% more tide in every power pod. -see? -baby: ah. wayfair has nice prices, so you can have nice things. that's why there's 85% more tide in every power pod. um kelly? we have champagne taste... on a hard seltzer budget... wayfair's got just what you need! what... y'all this is nice. salad plates? kelly clarkson? i'm fancy now! i have always wanted statement lighting. get nice things at nice prices at wayfair! ♪ wayfair, you've got just what i need ♪ at pnc bank, you can find us in big cities and small towns across the us, where our focus is to always support the people who live and work there. because you call these communities home, and we do too. pnc bank. ♪ chevy silverado has what it takes to do it all. with up to 13 camera views. and the z71 off-road package. ♪ you ok? yeah. any truck can help you make a living. this one helps you build a life. chevy silverado. -we're done. -what about these? looks right. nooo... nooo... quick, the quicker picker upper! bounty absorbs spills like a sponge. and is 2x more absorbent so you can use less. bounty, the quicker picker upper. (christina) with verizon business unlimited, and is 2x more absorbent i get 5g, truly unlimited data, and unlimited hotspot data. so, no matter what, i'm running this kitchen. (vo) make the switch. it's your business. it's your verizon. every business that's why comcast business de is launching theal. mobile made free event. with our business internet, new and existing customers can get one year of unlimited mobile for free. it's our best internet. powered by the next generation 10g network and with 99.9% reliability. plus one line of free mobile for an entire year. it's the mobile made free event-happening now. get started for just $49.99 a month. plus, ask how to get one free line of unlimited mobile. ♪ ♪ ♪ comcast business, powering possibilities. >> a very good day to all of you from msnbc world headquarters here in new york. good morning to alex witt reports. developing this hour, former president donald trump's mugshot is fueling a fund raising effort for his presidential campaign. but the case at the center of it is already ramping up. fulton county d.a., fani willis, is pushing for arraignment to begin right after labor day. as she tells defense attorneys, her office is ready to share evidence. it comes as some of trump's codefendants make their own moves, including former white house chief of staff, mark meadows.