for arraignments september 5th. that will be all of them, their first formal appearance, opening the floodbeats for pretrial motion, and potentially fights over the discovery process, but we should take a moment. in the here and now, there's still so much to consider. for instance, beyond what each defendants will have to answer for, there's a much broader university of unknown. do they stick together? this is a rico case, after all. could one of the defendants shake up the status quo and turn on the others. we don't know the answer to that question, but very apparent cracks in the foundation, suggesting maybe they're not all all on a same page. georgia rep shawn still argues that the fake electors met at donald trump's direction to sign false papers claiming they were the legitimate electors. we'll keep an eye on the lesser-known players, but don't lose sight of the big fish, people like mark meadows, and former doj official jeffrey clark. they're two of at least five people now seeking that have their cases moved to federal next week, it will be the trial before the trial, if you will, as d.a. willis will seek to retain control of those prosecutions. she's issued in subpoenas in what may be a preview of the trial at hand. so begins the effort to hold the disgraced president and his hunch men and woman accountable. harry litman is here and executive producer of "the circus" john heilemann is back. john heilemann, i want to start with you. there was a time when, it was so apart, oh, nobody would trust the process, and here we are -- i guess it's not morning anymore -- that's the kind of week i've had -- the day after the fourth criminal indictment of donald trump. >> yeah, look, nicolle, the unusual has become the usual. at the un-indictable have become indicted. perhaps the unconvictable will become convicted. i think the arguments that people put forward, they're very similar sets of arguments of why you can't indict sitting president, this notion of -- injecting politics in some way into the legal process. you know, that's been a thing that people of goodwill have expressed over many, many decades. before donald trump you had people like eric holder, a progressive to the core of his bones, expressing the kinds of arguments like you summarized a second ago. all of them have fallen away, not just because seeing him indicted four times, but also in the process of getting to the four indictments, the depth, the scale, the severity of the crimes or the alleged crimes has become apparent to everyone. the alternative, letting someone get off scot-free, not have any legal accountability for those things, have come to seem a greater risk than the risks that are still there of civic disruption, of not trusting the process, of people who will never believe donald trump was guilty of anything. >> harry, that is often, when you're at the highest levels of the justice department or the white house, you're often looking at a bad option or a worse option. i'm sure some of these folks felt like that at the end of the day, but it seems like we have to answer question about whether the rule of law also applies to donald trump. >> it does. there was a certain unfathomable quality to all of this, and now it's totally superceded. those at those 19 pictures, this would be the gang that is the 2023 equivalent of all the president's men in watergate. the doj crossed the rubicon twice, first when it decided to allege insurrection with some of the marauders, and now the country has followed suit. to john's point, more than half the country think he's guilty, more than half feel the trial though happen in november. the nitty-gritty of legal, is could this actually happen that absorbed us for many months. >> betsy, the conversion from being so hysterical and what chris yiie describes as the thoughts of a jail cell, what reportedly -- i be raffensperger was moved to tearing at one point, came down to this, big hal criminally responsible. there's been a pivot, a real embrace of his own criminal status. >> pasch of the reason for that is trump's legal strategy and his political strategy in this moment are indistinguishable, in the view of trump and frankly in the view of the close advisers surrounding him, there's just one actual project. for trump, getting elected in 2024, winning that presidential context is existential. he's essentially put all his eggs into the one basket. it's extremely often that the coverage of thinks presidential campaign will understandably be defined by the coverage of the extraordinary number of legal challenges, both civil and criminal that he's face. there's a calculated decision of lean into it, be on it, try to somehow capitalize on all these indictments, all these lawsuits, all this wheel extraordinary turmoil and risk rather than trying to pretend it all away. for trump right now getting elected once more is absolutely essentially. that's why, in his view, politics and the law itself can't be separated. >> i now your reporting is second to none, but i don't totally buy it, betsy. if that's true, why not be the defendant demanding to exercise his speedy trial rights? >> because at the same time, of course, strategically for them -- as you point out, i'm explaining an argument, not advocating for it. at the same time, in the view of trump and his advisers, if they get pushed down the road and he gets elected in 2024, then bare minimum trump himself would direct justice department officials supervising jack smith to end those criminal cases against him, as the president legally, that's a move he would make, and then on the other side of this georgia case against trump himself, you do have something of a potential constitutional crisis, were trump to become president while he was either being prosecuted or potentially convicted at a state level. from the standpoint of trump and his advisers, getting this stuff pushed until after the 2024 election day and hoping he can win the 2024 election, that's the end game. that's as far ahead as they've been able to game it out. john heilemann, at some level it's essentially trumpian. it is also quintessential trump bluster. he doesn't actually want to be a criminal. >> there's an appeal to running if you're donald trump, to running for president as the outlaw president, right? doug brinkley, the historian made a comment at the last run of "the circus" on our show, he would be the jesse james strategy, not only would they monetize that photograph, but they would wear it like a badge of honor, stir of the resentment, rally the troops, raise money, and he would become -- there's a tradition of this, like, where bad guys are heroic, anti-heroes. jesse james. you can name others. trump is that kind of guy. on another level, of course, you laugh at that, because jesse james was ahn actual hardened criminal who killed people without any apparent fee of being grabbed, being convicted and put behind bars. we know that's trump's greatest fear. he is just improvising, nicolle, doing what he does, bluster, bragadoccio, and run fast in a direction and hope everybody else gets too tired to chase you, or confuse them, or they'll back down. somehow your relentlessness and shamelessness will win the day. for donald trump, he's had a pretty good record. playing that strategy has served him will. he's gotten away with everything so far and largely rewarded for that behavior. the only question now is whether this is the exception. >> the adversaries are new characters. in the case of georgia, it's fani willis, who is good at prevailing in rico prosecutions. i want to just pull the thread on what happens monday. it is in some ways the trial before the trial. raffensperger has been called, as was his investigators, on the receiving end of phone calls from donald trump, who did a warm-up version to the find 11,780 votes. let me play both of those individuals called to a hearing on monday. >> yeah. so let me recommend, ryan, if you and kurt will get together, you know, when we get off of this phone call, if you could going together and work out a plan to address some of what we've got with your attorneys, where we can -- we can actually look at the data. for example, mr. secretary, i can tell, you said there were only two dead people that would vote. i can promise you, there are more than that, and that may be what your investigation shows, but i can promise you there are more than that. >> you know, you have the most important job in the country right now. if we win georgia, first of all -- they're not going to win right now. they're down, because the people of georgia are so sangry at what happened to me. they know i won. he won by hundreds of thousands of votes. it wasn't close. when the right answer comes out, you picked the race. i don't know why, you know, they've made it so hard. they will be praised. people will sea, great, because that's what it's about, the able to check and make it right. everyone noises it's wrong. it's just no way, anyway, whatever you can do, fran says, it would be a great thing. it's so important for the country. i very much appreciate it. >> so the other individuals are brad raffensperger and fran companies watson, who have been called on monday. >> i think it's really important, nicolle. mark meadows, to date, he's been successfully on the slalom run, but now, should he lose this hearing and be back in the jaws of the fulton county proceedings, he's really looking at hard time in a georgia jail that trump cannot pardon away. to john's point, maybe there's a solution for trump, but not the other 18. for what's important on monday, the judge has said, show me some evidence why you were in your official scope of responsibilities. as you say, wills will call raffensperger and his chief investigator, who will say, he's obviously pushing me to change an election result, that's against the law. what will meadows say to contradict it? i think it's pretty clear, he can't testify. he could maybe weave hi own way on direct, but he would be clobbered on cross-examination. he'll have to carry his burden with real evidence that doesn't include his own testimony. the stakes for him literally could not be higher. --. it's the difference between navigating the whoa giant slalom, and literally a disaster of many years in a georgia state prison. >> harry, you paint the stakes in such blunt and dire colors, i appreciate that, especially on a friday of this week. what possible defense in a legal context will he have for coordinating all of the elements of a coup? he was in the rooms where lawyers were telling him it violated the electoral count out, it was knowingly illegal, there was no flaw. he has his own texts with maybe we can find the other 11,000 people, lol. he knows what he's doing is unconstitutional. he knows what he's doing is illegal. there's no argument that it has anything to do with the american presidency. what will he say in his own defense? >> he knows what he's doing is a lie. we talked about this initially. to your chagrin, i know it seemed like how could he possibly get away with it? in his papers, which have just come in, written by a scalia clerk, very deaf, are just going to play it at a different level, where i'm convening phone calls or setting up meetings. i just want to note, i agree with you that his claim should not succeed, but it's nowhere near as weak as trump's, and we're in a circuit that is very pro-removal. that's his first step. then we get too immunity, so the case law is pretty much for him, but it's going to um down to how the general takes his characterizations of his duties. there's a few things, i agree, that it's hard to construe as anything possibly within a chief of staff's responsibilities, but he has put in descriptions that 75%, at least, give an argument. so we have covered this ground before. i know it's galling, but he has an actual shot monday, i think, and i think many people would have that same view. it shouldn't prevail, but the law is very deferential, in this circuit in particular is very deferential as well. >> do you have the same analysis of the other seeking to move it, harry? >> no, i don't. all that clark did -- he's trying to move it is the phoney-baloney memo. trump himself is already out and this is not what a president does. the electors seem the most far-fetched to me at all. they're not dealing with any federal at all. meadows, to my way of thinking is the most culpable, has the best shot. we'll find out monday. i know there's different views about this, but i'm here to tell you, it's not a gimme, not a layup for willis under the law. >> we'll be watching. harry is usually right. thank you so much for starting us today. john heilemann sticks around for the hour. what the "new york times" referred to the de facto picture of the year. the mug shot and what it says about our country and the state of one of our two parties in the country. plus, an attorney in florida is suing to bar trump from the presidency, based on the 14th amendment. how this could be the start of a legal efforts that ends up before the supreme court. later in the broadcast, we'll turn to the latest in the ex-president's other criminal probes. there's four, with a storm of legal fights ahead. all of that and more when "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere today. a quick. don't go anywhere today. for too long, big oil companies have bought off politicians so they can get away with ripping us off. that's changing now. joe biden passed a plan to jumpstart clean energy production in america. it's creating good jobs that can't be outsourced and will lower energy costs. $1800. that's how much a new report says the inflation reduction act could save just the average american family on energy costs. 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decline of the republican party, as much as this. what amounts to a presidential portrait, and most certainly the gop nominee, who faces 91, and for more indictments. friend of the show charlie sykes writes this today -- if you elect a serial con man with the vocabulary of a 9-year-old, you could be shocked. this is what trump wanted. republicans had a chance. they could have stood astride all the -- and they could have impeached and john heilemannrman a back as well. charlie, i think you might have to have been in the republican party or aligned with it to see how much kevin mcconnell and kevin mccarthy bear as much responsibility. when it was abundantly clear that they were -- my election was fine, i'm heading back. they knew there was no fraud and to their decision to let trump cry it out, which he didn't do, he planned an insurrection. >> absolutely step by step brought you to this moment, it is not shocking that his character and his conduct would lead to this moment. it wouldn't have been possible in the republican party had not gone along with all of this. you had a lot of coward this is not just an msnbc or bulwark thing. this is a republican thing. a lot of the magical thinking was, well, surely we don't have anything to do about it. there's no way he will bea perp walk, and then be a candidate. that was the premise. he thought the criminal justice would take care of him, but this is how shocking it is, nicolle. this was also the premise behind people like ron desantis, who i think were assuming, i don't need to take any shots at donald trump. he's going to be indicted, people will turn away, and i'll be the last man standing. here we are at the end of august 2023, and the party of law and order is still rallying around someone whose mug shot is on the front page of every newspaper in america. i don't think we should downplay how truly extraordinary that is. >> john heilemann, i think the mug shot is less horrifying what he would do as the mug shot president. he's running on an agenda dismantling the fbi. if anyone thinking he would leave the cia, department of justice, department of defense intact, they are engaged in magical thinking. the mug shot plans to be a destroyer of the rule of law and the institutions he didn't quite finish off. estimates nicolle, in the last block we talk about jesse james. he didn't have any interest in being a strong fbi or justice department. just imagine john diller as your next president, john gotti. they would do the same thing. i think that -- i say that in a way sort of a bit for a will have, but i mean it in a serious way. charlie does this thing, and he's one of the good buys. guys. he says the rep part is no longer the party of law and order. it one was, used to be the party of low deficits, muscular foreign policies abroad. the rep party is now the party of jesse james, john gotti, celebrity criminals. to call it the party of law and order -- i know charlie knows this, i'm not giving him a hard time -- people do it with nostalgia. it is this other thing. >> go ahead, charlie. >> had of absolutely not. i should have said the party formerly known as the party of law and order, formerly known for fiscal conservatism or carrying about character or strong muscular foreign policy. you can run down the list of things abandoned, and we've talked about how it's become a cult of personality. i think even republicans underestimated the degree to which that cultive personality could take them down this road. six of the eight keynes raising their hands, saying they would still vote for a man charged, tried and found guilty by a jury of his peers, felonies. i mean, five minutes ago, john. this would have been the easiest question in the world. of course you're not going to support a convicted felon, but tens of millions of republicans are willing to go along with it. if it was once legitimately the party of law and order vgts that's long, long, long gone. >> i find myself saying these things and knowing instantly they're not true, but it's so fast. romney and mccain ran on a platform of russia being america's largest geopolitical ally, and only two people i stood up on the stage a supporting support for ukraine. the other people is the way the window has sort of shifted. i think we laugh at it one day, but the platform of the desantis candidacy, which i know is ill-fated, but it's also to dismantle the phish. they're not just for approving brutal attacks, the candidates on the republican signed want to dismantle the federal agency charged with dealing with drug cartels, with preventing terrorism, that's their stated position, not hidden. >> nicolle, i say with some degree of -- this would sound like i'm complimenting them when i say this, i'm not, but they are for these things, because those are the things the republican party is for. the categorical distinction, mistake we make over and over again, these people who are running for office are the republican party. they're not. the people who are office holders of the republican party, they're not. they are -- they are the representatives of the republican party. they have a feel for what the base of the republican party, the majority of their party wants. that majority is the majority that has -- the majority of the party -- not of the country, but the party, that has supported donald trump, because they agree with him. they have the gotti president, the jesse james president. they hate the fbi, they date the department of justice. they hate it's all the deep state and the rest are being responsive to what they believed correctly is what the actual party actually wants. if the party didn't want those things, they would believe something else, because they have no real convictions on any of these issues. they see the way the party reacts to donald trump. they read the polls accurately. they are in touch with what the republican matter has become. they're scrambling to follow it, and to be left behind by it. i have no idea what ron desantis thinking actually about the department of justice. i knows he knows he cannot get dominated if he's not on the same side of donald trump. that's why he says what he says. >> it's amazing, though, because the reason the voters feel that way is because of the lies they continue to repeat about the institutions, if they prevail, they will lead. the phish is still led by trump's hand-picked fbi director. no one is going anywhere today. when we come back, an attorney in florida has started the process, by mounting a direct challenge to donald trump's third run for the presidency on the legal side of things. we'll talk about that next. don't go anywhere. about that nt don't go anywhere. i have to watch my neighbors' nfl sunday ticket. 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on the 14th amendment, which bars anyone engaged in insurrection from holding public office. if this is sounding familiar to you, it's because our guest laid out the case based on this legal argument on this program earlier this week. in an interview in the new yorker today, the judge says any challenge like this could ultimately end up before the u.s. supreme court, saying that it's, quote, this will be one of the most fundamental constitutional questions ever presented to the supreme court. in the 250 years since the founding of our nation, joining our conversation, danielle hawley. danielle, let me start by asking you if you looked at this and think that they are right in their legal analysis? >> far be it from my to disagree from both who i greatly admire. the supreme court has never decided a case until section 3rd of the 14th amendment known as the disqualifications clause, so none of us know if the supreme court would ultimately decide that trump could be disqualified. of course, the first step would be for someone to disqualify him from the ballot, and as the judge pointed out, that would be typically an elected officials, like a secretary of state, who would keep them off the ballot. making clear that trump violated the 14th amendment. it's crystal clear that the one case is exactly the kind of charges that are referenced in this 14th amendment, says kaplan. so for example thinking this is pretty clear. >> one thing that's sparked interest is there are many law professors we have to remember it was passed after the civil war, to look directly at people who did pledge allegiance to the united states, and then led insurrection so it's clear why many believe trump, having led this insurrection would qualify under the clause, but the question, who makes that decided, ultimately it would likely be the supreme court. >> john, we had the judge on earlier this week, he is so clear and so confident, and he obviously, as danielle says, has reasonable to be in the legal analysis, but it feels like the country is hanging on by a thread, and i wonder what you feel as this legal process commences in a very real way. >> you know, i watched the day you had the judge on, nicolle. i believe, like everyone, i have enormous regard for him as a legal scholar, and for your guest today. these are all questions that are a matter of constitutional -- we're all any same boat here, but i did hear my friend, charles sikes, i believe on that day raise some of the questions i have about this, about whether this is really a thing. on some level, i understand there's a process that could play out by which this would -- the way the judge lays out, and there's not -- i see a problem that -- i did hear charlie say that as a political matter, as ha matter of reality, that the likelihood that the series of things that would have to happen with this being resolved in a supreme court in a way that would stop donald trump just struck him as implausible on the some level. i can't say i have an art for why i feel that way, but it strikes me as kind of the story that, you know, this sort of thing that comes down from the clouds to save us, when everything else has failed. that there's something in the constitution that nobody really knew about, and hey, problem solved. i haven't seen that happen a lot in my career, certainly covering donald trump. color me hopeful 9 constitutional process will play out the way some says it might, but i'm inherently a skeptic. >> so, charlie, you were here on the day we started this conversation, but let me ask you this. i would argue i don't know how many people were really focused on the significance of all of the procedure milestones ahead of the last transfer of power, right? there are things that trump has trying evidence, such as inciting and giving comfort to an insurrection that have never happened before. are you 14th amendment curious or skeptical? >> both. i'm both s of course, i'm not the lawyer here, and i this professor's holley's analysis was correct. ultimately my skepticism is it would have to be decided by the supreme court. procedurally, i think the missing pieces -- the court is going to look at this. i think that donald trump engaged in an insurrection. you think that donald trump engaged in an insurrection. the court will say, what is the finding? where is the court case that specifically establishes the fact. maybe there is something there, but there has to be something, something, something, and then trump goes away. i have tremendous respect for judge ludig, but as a practical matter, i don't think people should invest too much hope in some rapid -- you know, this rapid constitutional revolution where the court does something it has never done before and throw him off the ballot. i think the politics of this are a bit messy as well, making the case that, because of this, we're not even going to allow donald trump to run for president. we would like a legal unicorn come to the rescue of american democracy, but i just adopt think we should, you know, have irrational exuberance that that's going to happen. sore. >> i feel this is the hour from maybe hope goes to die, but i feel like another big theme is that all of these remedies are novel. what's new, what is really novel is that one of the two parties is broken. one of the two parties rewards the mug shot. one of the two parties, they all raise their hand except for asa hutchinson ade said she would support donald trump again in a jury of his peers convicts him. known of thinks methods are supposed to have to exist. i have to sneak in a break. we'll have that conversation on the other side. a break we'll have that conversation on the other side ♪i'm hearing different ways for me to screen for colon cancer.♪ ♪it's time to use my voice,♪ ♪i've got a choice, more than one answer.♪ ♪i sat down with my doc.♪ we had a talk. ♪knew just what to say.♪ ♪i asked for cologuard and did it my way.♪ cologuard is a 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similarly make a legal-rounded situation, because you recognize that the four of us will likely need to act in concert if we act at all. all those discussions are happening. i think most important is the discussions are happening. we recognize the seriousness of this issue, and we are grateful for all of the people of great minds weighing in on it. we also recognize the process will ultimately be determined and have final say in the courts. we are back with danielle holley, charlie sykes and john heilemann. there's something about the synchronicity that the american secretaries of state operate. whether they hailed from the democrat party or republican party, they all stood together when it came -- when the ask from trump was to overturn the will of the vote in their states, they said no. so there's a muscle memory that's already been established in this specific office. it seems if this happens in one place, there's a chance it could have a domino effect. >> absolutely. we have some brilliant legalments in his offices. jocelyn benson s. a former law dean, as secretary of state that we just heard from. even though it may be politically fraught and may never come to pass, it's important to have these conversations. our constitution is supposed to protect us against things likes insurrections. we have built into the constitution backstops and safeguards to ensure that democracy continues. if we don't pay close attention when we need it to the critical clauses, we really could see or democracy crumble. this conversation is important, even if it never comes to pass. inches dan why will holley, charlie sykes, john heilemann. i'm so grateful to have the three of you to turn to. a quick break for us, we'll be right back. k break for us, w be right back. but you know what is? myplan from verizon. 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crimes. these are felony crimes in new york state, no matter who you are. >> our laws that protect national defense information are critical for the safety and security of the united states, and they must be enforced. lies by the defendant, targeted at obstructing a bedrock function of the u.s. government, the nation's process of collecting, counting and certifying the results of the presidential election. >> the participation in a criminal interperu in fulton county, georgia, and elsewhere to accomplish the illegal goal of allows donald j. trump to seize the presidential term of office beginning on january 20th, 2021. >> hi again, everything. what a remarkable past five months we have lived there as a country, an ex-president being criminally charged, not one, not twice, not three times, but four times over five months for his conduct, from falsifying business records, from mishandling national security secrets. what we are finally seeing is as frank figliuzzi described yesterday, as corruption colliding with consequence. the first-ever mug shot of a former president of the united states. the takeaway from all of this is much broader than just the photo, as historic as the photo is. the last few months have provided the american people an avalanche of legal accountability criminal acts. the nation's creed curb -- no one is above the law. the next several months for the ex-president will be jam-packed with hearings and trial. just three days from now in jack smith's case where judge chutkan may set a trial date. trump's attorneys asked for it to begin two years later. the hush money payments to a porn star is scopeded in march of 2024. and then the classified documents trial will begin in may of 2024, and the most recent indictment by fani wills has been proposed for just over two months from now, october 23rd of this year, after kenneth chesebro requested a speedy trial. in the last hour, another defendant in the fulton county case, former trump lawyer sydney powell also demanded what chesebro is demanding. consequence on top of consequence on top of consequence filling up a very full legal calendar for the ex-president, one that also collides with the political calendar as the defendant in all of these cases remains the gop front-runner. that's where we start the hour with some of our favorite experts and friends. frank figliuzzi is back. joining us is former acting assistant attorney for national security at the u.s. department of justice, mary mcchord is back. president of the national action network, host of "politics nation," the reverend al sharpton is here, and from hunter college, franklin bassel is here. this is a lot of open proceedings against the ex-president. i wonder where you sort of put your guess as to when country starts first. >> then we're looking as an october trial day. >> but in terms of the first trial of mr. trump, i guess my money is probably on the jack smith/d.c. district court federal indictment charges. as you know, jack smith has requested a january 3rd trial date. mr. trump has proposed april 2026. judge chutkan will hear that from the parties on monday, and i expect will render a decision setting a trial days. i don't think it probably will be january 3rd. that's quite aggressive and that would require jury selection beginning around december 11th, not that far away. so i expect it would be pushed out some time, but i don't know exactly how far out. really, i think depending on whichever trial goes first, we'll learn about what trials will follow. the timing of this, and mr. trump of course will try to delay all of them, but he will also say with his attorneys involved in defending him, in whichever is the first case, they can't possibly be preparing him for the next two, three and four trials after that. i don't think we'll see four before the election. i hope we see one before the election, maybe two, but a lot of that remains to be seen. >> one things, through his lawyers, it's so hard is he's a candidate, he's busy. when you take your mug shot and distribute it on campaign channels, do you undermine your lawsuit that you're too busy? . he is run it's so important for accountability. but it is really unfortunate that he is actually provide the fodder for him and fund raise as a victim. which, of course, is not at all borne out by what we know the facts to be. it's also not borne out by the allegations in any of these indictments, which are very serious and require accountability of the law. i think judges will try to give him a fair trial, respect the fact he is a candidate and any defendant, when they have a job or are a candidate, the court is going to try to treat them fairly and not allow them to give up a living. i put that in quotes. campaigning is not really making a living, but i don't think they'll let the campaigning derail the cases. that's not fair at all, either. he's the one who decided to run for president of the united states while he knew he had multiple pending criminal investigations. he is the one who, you know, has a relatively small, when you think about it, team of lawyers working mutual pal cases. these are all things he could change. he can afford to spend more for lawyers, the idea my lawyers can't do all this, well, hire more. when he says my campaign is being interrupted, these are decisions he made. he has ways to resolve the matters if he wanted to. so, i think that we're going to see judges that are trying to, you know, be fair, try to give him his due process, but not let him run away with delay, delay, delay, and multiple arguments about him being a candidate and him not having the time. >> frank, you inspired our framing for this conversation. your thoughts. i haven't seen you since we arrived at this point, waking up to the image of a mug shot of an ex-president. >> collision is a good word, because it also connotes the chaos, messy situation that has to be cleaned up. all of this harkins back to last year's "everything everywhere all at once." all the cases you just described are going to be chaotic. justice justice never promised us that it would be pretty, but it is going to happen. the world will look at this, and many nations that have far more centralized justice systems, they'll look at it and say, this is a mess, what are you folks doing over there? but there's a beauty in the chaos. the state gets to charge violations of its laws. new york gets to charge what happened in its venue. then the federal districts play entice where to charge what, and it's going to happen. it's going to be messy, and yes, it's complicated by the fact that, for the first time in history, we have something running for president while having to face these indictments. my word for everyone is, buckle up, settle in, and watch justice showily, but surely take place. >> you said buckle up. i feel like that is a message for those of us on earth one, right, the pro-democracy side. i feel like the op set is roll down the windows, take off your seat belt, cut the brakes on the other side. how do those two factions of america get through this, frank? >> part of the ugliness and the chaos of this will be intensifying polarization, but i also am watching very carefully for bright spots, meaning fewer people turn out at rallies and just, you know, show up because the president has asked them to show up outside a courthouse. it didn't really happen, to the extent that trump wanted in fulton county. that's an early sign of something there. then to the degree that jim jordan keeps having weaponization subcommittee and wants to subpoena fani willis for any communications with the federal government she's having. let's watch carefully and see how long people hang in, at mary very eloquently said, the first cases may not by trump. it may be chesebro in fulton, and if the evidence is strong, let's watch what happens to the cohorts around trump that say, i'm not so strongly going to call this out. i'm just going to watch what happens. >> you, of all of us have known trump the longest. what was going on behind the hair spray last night? >> i think it's clear to me that donald trump, when all of the bbombast is over. i don't know career criminals that face four trials in four different jurisdictions. so he has to know he's in deep trouble. i think on a more personal level. from all that i have heard in the years i've fought with him and times he would try to ingratiate himself to people in new york, he always wanted to prove to his father and others that he could be something. he reached the apex of that. he became president of the united states. now, in the stillness of the night, he realizes he will go down, no matter what happens in these trials, as the most disgraced president in u.s. history. when you see the portraits of the president, it will have on that array of presidential portraits a mug shot. how do you ever pass that on? you have relatives that want to change their last name from trump. that has got to be something that something ago ego manualal as he is, will hurt him. he will never admit it. that's why he was posing, trying to figure out how he wanted to look in the mug shot. he has to be conflicted. the respectability that was always seemingly beyond his reach has now crashed forever. he knows it better than any of us. >> i mean, basel, i keep thinking of the "atlantic" reporting, about how he canceled a trip to an american cemetery in france because it was raining and he didn't want to ruin his hair. he is obsessed with the superficial. he could pose however he wanted to, but it was not a shot he proud. he had to submit for it, because he's been charged with felony racketeering. >> that's right. this is a person who has spent his entire life trying to ingratiate himself with the people of new york, people across the country. even in a state when he says i never heard the term "mug shot" because i went to wharton, what is that? that's a sense of i'm elitist. i'm not these commoners. you should see me as above that. i also take your point from earlier on that, depending on who you are and where you are in this country, you will see that differently. many of us will see it as accountability and all of his bat behavior coming home to roost. some will see an individual unrepentant and forthright in how he wants to make this go forward, that he sees himself as a decree seder. he and his followers are are on their way to legions' fooled, because they're crusading for a cause they feel is just. but it does create -- and exacerbate this kind of division in our country. i think about his co-conspiracy tors. >> there was a march across the brooklyn bridge in professr test. i was there in that march, and i remember rudy giuliani's response to a reporter about, you know, what do you say to the black community? he said, well, i'm saving their lives. now, some years later, when asked -- and in talks about black lives matter, he said i've saved more black lives than black lives matter. think about the narcissism in that comment, and all we have seen donald trump do and produce over the last several years. those two are a match made in perhaps not heaven, perhaps somewhere else, but they are meant to be together. these are the individuals that good people, who care about justice and care about democracy, are fights. it's the cause that they are championing. it is going to be a very, very difficult few months, maybe a couple years, but it is an important thing that we stand by our conviction in this entire time. >> this is a conversation to have more in depth probably on another day. i have always been fixated on the asymmetry. >> all you do is confront what is produced by the cult. that is, if you're the jim jones of american politics, sooner or later people will realize the kool-aid is going to kill you. that is what i think will, in the long run happen that will dwindle down, because they will not achieve anything. at the end of the day. anyone that was on the trump ticket with them was robbed. he was saying he was robbed. and in georgia, he's saying the republicans that supported him, that voted for him, is he saying they robbed him? they're the runs that refused to give him the 11,780 votes that he said you can say that you recounted or went over it. so, as some point people will begin to realize that he is giving us something that's totally self-serving and was corrupt. i think that will dwindle over time. i think he knows that. at the end of the day, the wizard of oz knew that he was not the wizard. >> he is not a wizard. no one is going anywhere today. we have much more on this unprecedented summer of indictments, and the pileup of criminal exposure facing the disgraced ex-president. and his allies that he's the victim of a two-tiered judicial system. there may be two tiers of justice. and later in the hour, how the biden campaign is already on offense against the government's hardline extremist, unpopular stance. "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. k break. don't go anywhere. at the alzheimer's association walk to end alzheimer's, this is why we walk. ♪ they're why we walk. ♪ we walk in the alzheimer's association walk to end alzheimer's because we're getting closer to beating this disease. join us. how can you sleep on such a firm setting? gab, mine is almost the same as yours. almost is just another word for not as good as mine. save 50% on the sleep number® limited edition smart bed. plus, 60-month financing on all smart beds. shop now only at sleep number®. hey, dad. i got an a on my book report. -and i scored a goal on ashley. -that's cool. and i went for a walk in the woods and i didn't get a single flea or tick on me. you are just the best. it's probably because of that flea and tick medicine you've been ordering from chewy. we are very proud of you. you never stop surprising us, bailey. right? i'm great. you are great. i wonder if bailey's ever done a book report. be nice to your sister. what flea bit him? pets aren't just pets. they're more. this flea and tick season, trust america's #1 pet pharmacy. chewy. we're back with frank, mary, the rev and basel. mary, i know the justice department has sort of one mode, it's the blinder, the rule of law, the job they're out to do. is there any element of his campaigning on the mug shot, any tell graphs for his supporters, is there anything about that that figures into how they will argue against him in court? >> well, i do think some of this -- per our discussion at the top of the hour, i do think some of this may come up while they're talking about things like the trial schedule, while they're talking about things like the protective order. recall there's still some open questions about trump's ability to comply with his conditions of release, not engaging in any violation of law, in georgia there's pretty strict requirements about not engaging in intimidating or threatening communications. this fund-raising is not that, at least not what we have seen so far, but it certainly plays into the atmosphere that judge chutkan, the d.c. district court judge said she want going to permit, which is a carnival atmosphere. i think there could be arguments made that that is what he's trying to do, by suggesting in many ways that the entire criminal legal system is a farce. so, again, this is very sticky, he has first amendment rights, he's a candidate for political office. he has a right to campaign. he is presumed innocent until proven guilty, so the judge will be reluctant to put any restraints on him. i think you're right, some of this could color the government's arguments when they're trying to talk about things like scheduling and oppose various delays and motions he might file. it could also be things he says and does will end up undermining legal positions. there's a lou 6 steps between here and a trial. there's a lot of motions his attorneys will be filing, and sometimes i can see him saying inconsistent things with his defense. at the same time, i think the government, you say, puts blinders on. i think they're trying to be as apolitical as they possibly can. they're taking so much flack that they're going to be have cautious about what they use of this huge amount of social media, rhetoric and propaganda he is spewing. who would use their mug shot? donald trump. >> especially that one. frank, i want to ask a question about sort of the conversation and what is able to be monitored. i imagine anything in an open source can be monitored for people watching ute for domestic violence extremism. i wonder if you can speak toe the impact on the conversations when everyone running to be president on the republican side raises their hand when asked, if they had would support a convicted felon i think of it like a kaleidoscope, and when you see it's the whole party that thinks the fbi and doj are lawless and corrupt, except for asa hutchinson and chris christie. is it too vast to track? >> that's an excellent phrase to use, because while many people think the fbi is everywhere and sees everything, even if it's open sort material we're talking about, they certainly can't be everywhere. we don't want them everywhere in open source material. it's a difficult challenges. we have used the concept of radicalization many times on this show together. we have also talked about the road to de-radicalization. that requires people, leadership figures to come out and start showing you something different. start backing away from the one guru cult leader, terrorist leader, that's the best way to do t. to de-radicalize someone. the fact that mostly all of the other candidates aren't similarly siding with trump, bashing the fbi and institutions. it doesn't help, and if doesn't get you to de-radicalization. one of the things law enforcement is tracking, appeared 2 goes back to the last segment where we talked about cults, i'll throw in david koresh and the branch davidians. the deep investigation and the aftermath of the tragedy showed that overhead imagery, heat-seeking imagery the fbi was deploying overhead showed an audio that koresh gave the signal to start burning fires. that's what you can see on the imagery happening. why am i mentioning this? he wanted to burn the place down when he was cornered. the real concern needs to be the extent to which donald trump and perhaps those supporting him will want to burn the place down, institutions, the republican party's halfway burned down already, and what is this going to look like if they burn the place down and people preen to violence start doing what they think they're going called to do? >> i guess what worries me is rhetorically they're already there, right? they want to burn down all of the institutions that hold up the government. mike pence watts to get rid of d.o.e. desantis wants to get rid of the fbi. trump wants to turn them into his personal armies and police, intelligence services. i wonder if that's too much, or if the energy is focused elsewhere on communicating with each side's own political coalition, and make sure they're informed and how to vote. that is the reality of what the republican front-runner is running on. not in a coded way, not in a secret way, not uncovered by tremendous journalism, but in interviewing with tucker carlson and elsewhere. >> i think that's right. they do it very openly, very overtly. i am won't to read "the federalist papers." i have to talk about it with my students from time to time. i ask them to look at the founding documents, but i ask them to look at state documents. i think they're aseparational. who do we want to be? and sometimes it's a statement of who we are not. we don't abridge your ability to speak, to assemble, to practice your religion. we're also not a country that allows someone who has manufactured and essentially been in charge of an insurrection in our country to get the keys to our country back afterward. so, you know, the framers were hobbsian in effect, to protect us from the worst of ourselves. you really do look at what transpired on the gop debate stage very differently. the fact that they had to be asked specifically if they agreed with mike pence's decision to allow the election results to stand? how did we get here as a country where we actually have to debate that? i'm not wont to quote mike pence normally, but it's just amassing we're at this place and time. so, when there is this conversation about, what is going to happen next? how do we ensure that the principles of the people that we care about are protected, i do think about some of the earlier points that over time, particularly as we see donald trump go through all of these trials, just consider the fact this has always been about him. it's not been about everybody else. he sees people as sheep, not as allies, certainly not as peers. if we continue to refer to that and cause that owl, i do think that becomes apparent over time. >> well, just not for nothing, pence does the right thing after consulting judge ludig, so the legal advice is the reason why pence doesn't listen to eastman, who was the judge's clerk. now l. dig says what happened that day and what pence saw happening was insurrection. it makes trump ineligible. thank you all so much for spending friday with us at the end of a historic people. the rev sticks around a little longer. when we come back, the disgraced ex-president wants his supporters to believe he's a victim of a two-tiered system in the united states, but it is the kid glove treatment that he's gotten that's proving the opposite to be true. he's gott tenhat's proving the opposite to be true. go! that's what i'm talkin' about! 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show the two-tier system in america. if you are the president's leading political opponent, doj tries to literally put you in jail and a prison term. if you're trump, it's different. >> this is a said day for the equal application of the law. >> we have two standards of justice, one for people like you and me, and one for the corrupt political class of which there are many. we've heard it so many times. this rhetoric about a two-tiered justice system. they're right, examine exists, but donald trump isn't on the side he think thinking he's on. even if a legal context, he's not a victim of anything. consider the far better position that trump is in than the thousands being held in fulton county jail, many awaiting trial just like he is. accusations and moments of criminality that have so far left donald trump and his entire family and most of his base totally unscathed. rev, even the people who faced accountability were almost pardoned by trump. the two-tiered system of justice is the office of legal counsel memmor that kept robert mueller from charging trump with crimes or saying he should be charged as soon as he left. it kept trump individual one in the campaign finance violation case from ever being charged from anything. it kept him from ever facing any accountability anything for crimes he committed in broad daylight. the two tiers of justice really are the one hi functioning under and the ones everybody else has to contend with. >> now doubt about it. he enjoyed the top tier, until he put too much weight and the top tier couldn't hold him anymore. when you look at the facts, what would be the basis of them discriminating or conspiring or whatever other adjective he would want to use against him. >> he was a person that was wealthy, male, white. he had all the advantages. so the system wasn't after him. in fact, he got a position to appoint those that were over the system, that were the attorneys general, that were those in law enforcement. so there's no basis to even entertain he was targeted in any way. again, we're talking about a man who feels singularly he should have been able to change votes. he wasn't even fighting for his party. he wasn't fighting for those that endorsed him. it's all about him. it's narcissism on steroids. i think people generally in this country get it. i think even his followers will soon get it as the facts come out. what will happen when some of the his co-conspirators turn against him? i think he a beginning to realize in the stillness of the night, i keep saying, that the game is over, and he's played himself into a corner he cannot get out of. >> you know, erin, i showed kevin mccarthy today, because we all know what he thought of trump's criminality on january 6th, because there's some great reporting that had audio tapes of him talking to his own leadership. he talked about how the 25th amendment wasn't a fast-enough mechanism to get rid of him. he talked about how impeachment would take too long. he was talking about removing him. mitch mcconnell had much more public remarks about donald trump. he referred him criminally for exactly this, for prosecution we know what they think about the conduct, they said is out loud, but to hear them recklessly attacking the justice department for a holding trump accountable, years and years after the crimes that were committed in full view, just feels like the complete trump takeover of their minds and spines. >> yeah, you're right, nicolle. it's a two-tier system based on the double standard that former president trump has frankly conditioned the republican party to go along with and now to espouse in their full-throated ongoing defense of him. you can ask anybody who has ever been arrested in fulton county if they were in and out of the rice street in 20 minutes. he is definitely being treated differently. he got to submit his height and weight. they didn't weigh him or mesh usual him. other republicans, what they're all doing is just intended to portray him to the court of public opinion as a victim, as somebody who's being start targeted and really by extension, they can also be targeted, because he's one of the them. that continues to get the finance support. it's interesting those how he is able to fund wray out of this latest booking and appearance and his mug shot. it's intended to portray him as a victim. he's conditioned people for so long that the rules are fine until they have to apply to him. >> no one is going anywhere today. when we come back, how president joe biden is already using the republican presidential field extreme outside the mainstream positions on abortion, health care, to his advantage. we'll show you what his campaign is doing, after a quick break. hn is doing, after a quick break. planning to move? join the 6 million families who discovered a smarter, more flexible way to move, with pods. save up to 30% now for a limited time. whether you're moving across town or across the country. save up to 30% at pods.com today. the first time you made a sale online with godaddy was also the first time you heard of a town named dinosaur, colorado. we just got an order from dinosaur, colorado. start an easy to build, powerful website for free with a partner that always puts you first. start for free at godaddy.com when i first learned about my dupuytren's contracture, my physician referred me to a hand specialist. and i'm glad he did, because when i took the tabletop test, i couldn't lay my hand flat anymore. the first hand specialist i saw only offered surgery. so, i went to a second hand specialist who also offered nonsurgical options - which felt more right for me. so, what i'd say to other people with dupuytren's contracture is this: don't wait —find a hand specialist trained in nonsurgical options, today. i found mine at findahandspecialist.com. if you have moderate to severe crohn's disease skyrizi is the first and only il-23 inhibitor that can deliver clinical remission and endoscopic improvement. serious allergic reactions and an increased risk of infections or a lower ability to fight them may occur. tell your doctor if you have an infection or symptoms, had a vaccine or plan to. liver problems may occur in crohn's disease. control of crohn's means everything to me. ask your gastroenterologist about skyrizi. ♪ control is everything to me ♪ learn how abbvie could help you save. after the responses offered at wednesday night's republican debate, there can be no doubt that any of the candidates on that stage and the one who obviously was not there, will continue the republican party's all-out assault on access to reproductive health care, should they prevail. the biden campaign quickly turned around. take a look. >> announcer: they're among the most personal decisions a woman will ever make, choices that should be made by you and the doctor. the last people who should be involved are these guys. >> first of all, i'm the one that got rid of roe versus wade. >> governor desantis, you signed a six-week abortion ban in florida. >> i believe in a culture of life. >> if i were president of the united states, i would sign the most conservative prohiv life legislation that they can get through or no, as a principle? >> the answer is that there has to be some form of punishment. >> for the woman? >> yeah. >> that is who they are. that ad, though, is part of a huge new ad campaign. nbc news is reporting that the campaign has put $25 million behind that spot you just saw, targeting women and men living in battleground states. it will run online and on-air in arizona, georgia, michigan, nevada, north carolina, pennsylvania, and wisconsin. we're back with errin and the rev. actually, i may have misspoken. it may just be an online ad. i'm going to ask them to check me on that. errin, this is a message that has been underestimated in terms of its impact not just on women, not just on democrats, but on all americans. you've got some of the reddest states in the country rejecting abortion bans. >> yeah, absolutely. and so you saw republicans onstage on wednesday night at that debate really trying to paint democrats as extreme, talking about the specter of late-term abortions, something that we've written about and debunked frankly at the 19th as something that is not happening with the frequency that republicans are suggesting or is something that, you know, the country needs to be so concerned about or acting on. and you saw nikki haley kind of desperately trying to say that, you know, pushing for a federal abortion ban that is just not going to happen in our current political climate is not a winning strategy for them. and yet, you know, that was still what we saw on that debate stage, and certainly president biden and democrats are seizing on that because they know. i mean we saw that abortion was on the ballot for women in 2022, and the same thing is going to be true in 2024. democrats and republicans know this. as more than half of the electorate, women are going to be the deciders of who the next president is, and this is an issue that's going to be right up there with democracy, with education, as women head to the polls. >> rev, i have a physician friend who doesn't pay a ton of attention to politics, but she said all americans are going to become fluent in a language of maternal mortality. we're going to become a country that for the first time in a long time, everyone, everyone is talking about our rates of maternal mortality because they're going to be a stain on the country, an embarrassment. of course we like to focus on the women. we've given a lot of air time to the plaintiffs in the texas case. but just the numbers and the trends will be inescapable for all americans. >> no doubt about it. and it's clearly something that drives women of all races and all economic data shows us that it does not matter when you're rich or poor. you really want to see women's right to choose to maintain itself. but at the same time, the mortality is higher among blacks and higher among those that aren't poor. but i think that errin is right. when you look at the '22 midterms and how what was supposed to be a big win for the republicans, they went down on the issue of abortion. women are saying clearly that they do not want to lose this right. when i look at the fact that young girls are growing up with less rights than their mother had, that will energize the vote. and i think that when the biden campaign comes out with that and the biden/harris strategists decided to do that, they are fighting for people's rights, not their individual maintaining of power. they're saying the way you maintain your right over your own body, if you're a woman, is by voting against those who have vowed that they're going to take your right of choice of your body away from you. and they're only debating whether they're going to take it in 6 weeks or 15 weeks. that's outrageous to the majority of women in this country. >> rev, i want to switch gears a little bit. i know you've got some news about the march. tell us about it. >> well, the march is tomorrow. people are already coming by the thousands. people are on buses. but it is the 60th anniversary weekend of the march on washington in 1963 when dr. king made that historic speech that was known as "i have a dream." but we're not commemorating the march. the march is being co-convened by martin luther king iii and andrea waters king. we have anti-defamation league. jonathan is the head of that, jonathan greenblatt, who is a co-convenor. we have the entire labor movement, afl-cio, and others because just like 60 years ago, it was an inclusive move to deal with the issues of rights and freedom and equality at that time. we are at a time now where women have lost their right to choose. affirmative action is gone. lgbtq rights, there was a supreme court decision that hurt them. so we're saying that all of us, we may not agree on certain subjects, but all of us agree we must have these rights restored. so 60 years later, we're saying that just like they gathered 60 years ago to confront those that would impede their having an equal right and freedoms in this country, we're dealing with the issues that are relevant and prevalent now. and we're going to do it the same way they did in the '60s, and that's a large gathering and peaceful march. and the other thing that i would say, nicolle, is we want to show that we can come to washington en masse and act with dignity. yes, we're angry. yes, we're concerned. but you should contrast tomorrow night with the video of what happened january 6th for those that want to destroy the government with those that want to uphold the government to behave in a way that is fair for everybody. >> that's so profound, and the picture will tell the whole story. thank you both so much for spending time with us on this friday. rev al will have much more on the 60th anniversary of the march on washington on "politics nation" tomorrow at 5:00 p.m. eastern here on msnbc. quick break for us. we'll be right back. at farmers, we offer both quality insurance and great savings. 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"the beat" with ari melber starts right now. >> i'm going to let you leave, not hold you over as we sometimes do in the tosses. but i will see fact check true as to your word "extraordinary". >> right? right? have a good show. >> have a good weekend. thanks nicolle wallace. welcome to "the beat." we begin with the visual news that most americans, most news

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