>> lots and lots. i will be watching. >> thank, you alex. we now have the first mugshot ever taken of a former president of the united states. here's donald trump's mugshot, which will instantly become the most famous mugshot in the history of photography. the mugshot of the 45th president in the united states will go from tomorrow's newspapers into our history books, where the only presidential mugshot will live for ever. american high school history students will be looking at that photograph for hundreds of years. that mugshot will define the low point in the history of the american presidency. that mugshot will soon be everywhere in our lives. it will be on t-shirts, coffee mugs, napkins, toilet paper. this christmas, you will see people give and receive gifts with that mugshot on them. artists will create their own andy warhol like renditions of that mugshot. we are still publishing biographies of abraham lincoln, 158 years after he was assassinated. we will still be publishing biographies of donald trump 158 years from now, and 300 years from now. and each of those books will contain that mugshot. that mugshot will eventually be seen by more people than any other picture of an american president. most of us carry pictures of american presidents in our pockets every day. george washington, on the $1 bill, abraham lincoln, on the five dollar bill, 100 years from now when we might live in a basically cash free society, what almost all payments are electronic, people will see donald trump's mugshot more often than they will see those pictures of george washington and abraham lincoln that we carry in our pockets now. hundreds of years from now history students around the world will be staring at that mugshot, staring into the eyes of donald trump and wondering what they see was. what they should see is fear. donald trump's fear of what can happen in a country where no one is above the law. what they should see is stupidity, the stupidity that made donald trump a criminal defendant. and they should see hatred, donald trump's hatred of the integrity of the institutions and the people who forced him to endure the humiliation of that mugshot. unlike his predecessor, president obama, and most other presidents, donald trump is not chosen a presidential portrait artist to paint his portrait. like the mini portraits of previous presidents that hang in the white house now. tonight, in a snap, a booking camera, in fulton county, georgia, created donald trump's presidential portrait. donald trump's surrender to district attorney fani willis for his arrest and booking today, was not the most significant legal event of the day. 11:43 am, former georgia secretary of state brad raffensperger subpoenaed to appear at mark meadows hearing to remove his case to the federal court on monday. 12:45 pm, mark meadows agreed to a 100,000 dollar bond agreement. 12:56 pm, distant tierney willis filed a motion responding to defendant kenneth chesebro's request for a speedy trial by agreeing to a speedy trial for all 19 defendants and asking that that trial be given on october 23rd. 1:37 pm, defendant jeffrey clark's bond was set at $100,000. to 15 pm, defendant mark meadows surrendered, was arrested, booked, and his mugshot went public. 2:27 pm, defendant harrison floyd was booked at fulton county jail, 2:31 pm, donald trump filed, and his defense file, his new defense lawyer, filed an advisory to the judge, the georgia judge, saying that he will oppose a speedy trial, and saying that donald trump will make a motion to sever his case from defendant chesebro, who has demanded a speedy trial. for 15 pm, georgia judge scott mcatee set a schedule for defendant chesebro's speedy trial, with the trial set to begin on the date suggested by district attorney willis, october 23rd. leading off our discussion tonight, when he's fleming, former just tourney of neighboring dekalb county florida emily copeland, criminal defense deter attorney and formal federal prosecutor, also to former defense attorneys, now professor university of a balloon rule of law, and harry litman, former deputy assistant attorney general. he is a senior legal affairs analyst for the los angeles time. gwen keyes fleming, let's begin in october 23rd. i want to begin by thanking you for explaining to me the speedy trial rules of georgia many months ago, which, in your explanation, indicated the reason why just journey willis wise pausing or waiting as long as she did to bring the indictment, because she knew she was going to be living under this speedy trial rule. what do you make of the latest developments today in the speedy trial motions and what the judge said about speedy trial? >> the law in georgia is very clear. when a defendant asked for a speedy trial or makes emotion or makes it a band, he or she must be tried either in the term of court where the motion is filed, or in the succeeding term, the immediate next term. if they are not tried within that timeframe, the case is automatically dismissed. and so by filing the motion at the end of this term, the term only goes through the end of august, that means the dea must try mr. chesebro by the end of october. and so what you saw her do was set a date in time that allowed them to strike a jury and join issue, before that deadline would come to pass. >> what happens if the district attorney does not meet that speedy trial deadline? does the case against the defendant just get dismissed? >> the statutes is the case is dismissed. >> joyce vance, the georgia speedy trial law is a force to be reckoned with and now we're going to see donald trump saying i want my case severed from that. fani willis, the last thing she said about it today was great, let's do all 19 of them on october 23rd. >> right, so donald trump and other defendants who want to sever will have to come into court and they will have to explain to judge why they are prejudiced if they are forced to go to trial on this early date with kenneth chesebro. usually that involves defendants talking about the kinds of evidence they can be introduced against codefendants and how that can prejudice them. you can see how with 19 defendants, that could quickly become a very messy situation. but as glenn says, the law is clear in georgia. once this demand is made, chesebro is entitled to his vast fast trial, that's likely to take place on that timeline unless he alters his request. so it's likely we will get the benefit of cameras in the courts in georgia and this early view of the evidence in this case. >> amy lee copeland, what about defendant chesebro? can he change his mind about the speedy trial? >> i think, lawrence, he's in. i think he is asked for it, i think he's going to get it, and as i have been waiting to say all day, the cheese stands alone. everyone's trying to distance themselves from chesebro's election. >> what about those defendants who want to sever from chesebro's speedy trial. what is the likelihood of them being able to sever themselves? >> typically defendants were indicted together get tried together. that's just attorney say, it's what judges say. it's interesting to read judge mcafee's order. it seems to contemplate that not everyone is going to be tried with chesebro. it's clear that at this time, this order applies only to defendant chesebro. the deadlines apply only to that defendant. i don't know if this is preemptive, whether this judge will entertain motions to sever, or if he's putting everyone on this docket now. that was notable language for me. >> harry litman, do you see any incentive for any other defendant in this case to be asking for a speedy trial? >> look, the general point here is the incentives have now come apart. then there are chasm's between different defendants. one georgia elector just move to remove tonight saying i get to remove my case because i was ordered to do what i did by federal officials, meaning the trump campaign. there are, yes, strategic reasons you might want to go sooner rather than later, technically it's kind of a chicken game, saying do you have -- you're going to have to prove this and get it together very quickly. i don't think you can. but the general point that things are accelerating and coming apart among the defendants in ways that are dangerous and ominous for trump, is, i think, the big story now. >> harry, just go back over that point for a section. there was a pleading today, one of the false electors who is a criminal defendant in the case filed a pleading saying that he is case should be moved to federal court because he was acting at the direction of the president of the united states. so there you have, already, donald trump codefendant pointing the finger at donald trump, saying he made me do it. >> exactly right. and you have mark meadows moving the first day for a movable when trump would want to take longer, you have chesebro now doing exactly what trump doesn't want. everyone is being sobered up and quick by the experience of being booked, arrested, and their self interests are coming to the four as against the interests of the big mob boss. >> gwen keyes fleming to go back to the speedy trial, it is two months from now, october 23rd. what do you think the likelihood is of that first trial, at least one of them, of one defendant, beginning on or about october 23rd? >> at this point they would have to be extraordinary circumstances for it not to start on that day. as amy said earlier, the defendant always has the option of withdrawing his demand emotion. it appears as though, since it was filed so early, this could be a strategic move, which he is entitled to do as part of his defense. but this is not something the dea could ask for a continuance. if she did she would risk dismissal of the case. it seems unlikely that the judge would entertain continuance is. so the only way for the case not to go at that time, is if mr. chesebro decides to withdraw his motion. >> so how does the judge treat that if this defendant suddenly comes back in accord at some point saying i withdraw my motion for a speedy trial? does the judge just accept that and move on, and just throw him back in the pile with everyone else? >> usually, yes. and again, this is one of those constitutional rights and statutory rights that defendants have. so judges usually try to be differential to what a defendant wants because they may, after seeing discovery, or perhaps as they are building their case, they may realize they need more time. and so, to protect due process and other rights, a judge would seriously consider a motion to withdraw by that same defendant. so, really, the timing is in mr. chesbrough's hands along with his attorneys right now. >> and joyce, if you're looking for any kind of sign of confidence in a defendant. a motion for a speedy trial is one of those indicators of confidence. >> you know, that's typically true, but in this case, it may more have been an effort to catch fani willis out of school. prosecutors usually take a little bit of time after they indict a case to line up all of their ducks for trial. and maybe mr. chesbrough's attorneys thought that they would be able to use that to their advantage here. but it looks really not to be the case. willis was very quick to respond. she even moved up the day that she hasbro asked for by a few days. that may reflect the reality. i think when was referring to this. she'll need to have time to strike a jury, get the jury in the box and start the case in time to avoid the penalty that georgia speedy trial act would impose if she fails to meet that deadline. but what we've seen here, i think regardless of what chesbrough intended to ulises listed here is a remarkable show of strength by fani willis. all of those months where people were complaining that she was taking too long to get this case indicted, we see what was going on during that time period. she was lining everything, up she's ready to go to trial. >> amy look copeland, do the other defendants and the other defense council see and advantage to them and having at least one defendant, one other defendant, get a speedy trial so that they can see what the prosecutor has and how the prosecutors intend to prosecute these cases? >> absolutely, lawrence. i suspect that, if the trial goes forward on october 23rd, you look at the audience and you'll see 1830 attorneys with no patent pens scribbling furiously as this unfolds. today, we'll definitely give an advantage. we'll know what some of the evidence says based on the documents, but they'll really see it come to life. how convincing are these witnesses going to be? do they testify well? do they hold their heads high and go for it, or do they stem earnhardt no idea what they're talking about? it will be invaluable for the other defendants to see what happens. >> harry lippman, it seems to me that it would be especially valuable for the other lawyers who are codefendants, like rudolph giuliani, because this first trial on october 23rd is for one of the lawyers, the lawyer who apparently originated the idea that the choice of the next president of the united states is up to the vice president of the united states. but, if you are giuliani and you are watching that prosecution, and if that jury comes back, you know, quickly or otherwise, with a guilty verdict, what does that do two other defendants thinking about the question, which they still will be two months from now, should i cooperate with the prosecution? should i flip? should i plead and slim and work with holly willis? >> it scares them to their soul, but it's certainly true. and remember, all 19 here are charged with a vast rico enterprise. so that might be one thing and chesebro's head. you can't isolated, just to me you're gonna have to put on much of your case. but of course, if things come back, they've seen the sort of shock and awe. and they will be looking, it may be too late by then, but they'll be looking very much to cut a deal. it goes both ways. but, generally, chesebro, as joy says, this kind of betting that chesebro can't get it together so quickly. willis had to make the response she did, i think. but, if push comes to shove, she will do it, and -- just with hasbro, is gonna be a pretty big, sprawling proceeding. >> gwen keyes fleming, if we do have one defendant out of a group of 19 codefendants sitting there in front of a jury, what will that trial jury no under georgia criminal procedure. what will they be allowed to know about the status of the other defendants? will they know that donald trump is actually a codefendant in this case, and will they be wondering, where are the other defendants? >> well, that's going to be an interesting question that i think will be resolved by a series of pretrial motions, what we call motions in limine. those are sort of the motions that outline the guardrails with info that both the dea and the defense can operate, in terms of how they question witnesses, cross examine witnesses, how they lay out their arguments. so, if you have a motion in limine from the defense team, for example, that bars or attempts to bar the d.a. from talking about any of the other codefendants, then that would make the case a little bit difficult for the prosecutor to go forward. because, obviously, this is a rico case. it is a conspiracy case. it is something that, by definition, involves more than one person. and so, i'd anticipate that she and her team would argue very vigorously that they do not have to go forward with one hand tied behind their back, that they be allowed to tell the whole story or as much of it as relates to mr. chesebro as possible. so again, in terms of what the jury will hear, all of that will probably be, at least attempted to be well scripted by the parties outside of the jury's presence before they go forward. >> joyce vance, could that be part of defendant chesebro's strategy at the moment? thinking that the only way or the best way for me to try to win is to be alone in that courtroom, because i don't want to be affected in a negative way by the other defendants. and i want the sympathy of the jury being there alone and what that jury will wonder where are all the other people who were part of this conspiracy? >> yeah, i think that's exactly right, lawrence. it could easily be his strategy, and it's not a bad strategy for that single defendant to point his finger at the empty chairs and say, it was these other people. i wasn't the president of the united states. i had no stake in the outcome of this election. i was simply giving legal advice. that might have worked for chesebro entail we learned a couple of weeks ago that there is actually video of him at the capitol at the insurrection in the company of some of the folks who were pushing the big lie. and so, while he may try this defense, the facts may not be very friendly to him here. he may have exceeded his dual role as a lawyer and become more of a participant. and that's something that willis will be able to use against him at trial. because she has this large rico claim. a lot of evidence will come in, and what evidence comes in that trial is ultimately a left to the discretion of the trial judge. and so, as gwen says, there will be a lot of pretrial notions trying to define that. and then once those notions are decided, chesebro will have that final moment where he will have to decide, do i go to trial or do i plead guilty. how do i feel about where we ended up? >> any copeland, any georgia defense attorney like yourself i'm sure would rise to object if the prosecution tried to introduce that photographic evidence that chesebro was at the capitol on january six since it's not included in any way in the charge against him. what might happen, what might the ruling beyond that evidence? >> so, lawrence, you look at whether something is inextricably intertwined with the actions themselves. georgia's criminal codes, it's evidence code, follows the federal evidence code. and i fear for mr. chesebro sake that it may very well be part of the scheme. it might be part of it. it might be something that you can't untangle. i don't think that criminal cases are like fine wine. they do not get better with age. and i remember reading a few days ago that mr. trump's prior attorneys said at a press conference, or said to the media, that mr. trump was simply relying on advice from his attorneys. you see that in mr. still's removal motion, and so part of me wonders if mr. chesebro is trying to get out in front of all of that. maybe he reads the writing on the wall that at some point, everyone is going to start turning and point fingers at him. the footage sure doesn't help him, but some of the language he used in the emails in december of 2020 doesn't either. the best way to do it is to try and disrupt the electoral college. this isn't good for him, and perhaps he's just trying to get out before everyone starts looking at him. >> a, harry litman, that brings us back to your first point, which is the fingers being pointed at each other among the codefendants. so, any copeland raises a very important point of donald trump, who is donald trump going to point the finger at? well, he said, he has basically said publicly, i'm gonna point the finger at every single lawyer who was a co defendant in this case. i'm gonna say they told me i could do it. >> i think that's right. and chesebro and the others realize that's the point. so i agree with gwen and others. defendants often want to sever cases, and they want to be able to say, it's the people who aren't here that did it. it's not necessarily easy, and i think the speedy trial motion really could be thought of as a sort of de facto way to sever his case. what he really got, yes he's gotta roll the dice because she may say, okay, i will see you october 23rd, but he gets to be on his own, he gets to be first, he gets to tell his story. and his story is sort of in the background feeding some information. yes, that one memo which also figures and jack smith's indictment as a sharp departure is gonna be tough. but he gets to try to tell his story without others dirtying him up. he thinks that's his best shot. >> all right, we're gonna squeeze in a quick commercial break. what i think is maybe the first commercial break of this network of the evening. the crew is very grateful for that. everyone, please stay with us, there's so much more legal ground to cover that happen just today. we'll be right back. dove invited women who wanted their damaged hair trimmed. yes, i need a trim. i just want to be able to cut the damage. we tried dove instead. so, still need that trim? oh my gosh! i am actually shocked i don't need a haircut. don't trim daily damage. stop it with dove. ♪ the thought of getting screened ♪ ♪ for colon cancer made me queasy. ♪ ♪ but now i've found a way that's right for me. ♪ ♪ 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at xfinitymobile.com. >> we are back with our team of former state and federal prosecutors. gwen keyes fleming, emilia copeland, joyce vance, harry litman. and i said at the outset of this program tonight that there would be t-shirts with donald trump's mugshot on them. and of course, donald trump is the first to be selling those t-shirts tonight for $34. he has sent out a solicitation to sell those t-shirts to the most gullible political contributors in the history of political contributions in america. donald trump said a few words about what he experienced in atlanta just a few minutes ago. and of course, he lied. >> we were going through tremendous crowds in atlanta. they were so friendly, so friendly. but this is a radical left district eternity as we have in new york and as we have in all the other places. >> just, note to the audience if you're wondering where our video is of the tremendous crowds, the video doesn't exist because the tremendous crowds don't exist. gwen keyes fleming, we are entering the space of -- where donald trump has to live under a multiple set of conditions under what he can and cannot say publicly, who he can and cannot talk to. in the georgia case, there is the condition that he cannot talk about the facts in the case. that's the phrase used in the condition. cannot talk about the facts in the case to any codefendant. right after that condition was imposed on rudolph giuliani and donald trump, donald trump announced a fund-raiser that he will participate in for rudolph giuliani's legal fees where they will be together and speaking together yesterday after he was arrested and booked. rudolph giuliani said it, i spoke to the president today. so they can talk to each other, they're just not supposed to talk about the facts of the case directly or indirectly, according to the conditions. that seems like an impossible condition to actually enforce, because of course, these codefendants could secretly talk to each other about the facts of the case, and there's no way the court would know it. >> so, it's a very important condition. all of them are. and i would guess that each of the defendants council has talked to them very candidly about the risks of not following the conditions of bond. again, bond is a promise to abide by certain rules of the court so you can stay out of jail. if you break those rules, then usually a district attorney will try to have your bond revoked. and so, if there is evidence over anything prohibitive of those conditions been violated, then both parties would risk the possibility that the dea would seek to have bonds revoked. obviously, that would be another hearing. and so, i think it can be done, but i think it's going to be -- going to take due care to make sure that the lines are respected and not crossed. because crossing them would have some very serious consequences. >> and joyce vance, he's under similar behavioral can restraints in the washington d.c. case with jack smith, as a special prosecutor in that case. but donald trump's never indicated that he has the slightest respect for anything like the kinds of conditions that they're imposing on him. >> no, he never has. he has continued to make comments that are right on the border of threatening witnesses, making comments about the judge. this is behavior that he has displayed throughout his entire presidency, so it's no surprise that he has been unable to strain himself so far. lawrence, i think this first tweet that we've seen from trump since right around the time of january six tonight is remarkable because it is so very vanilla. it is not the typical trump, sort of, social media outrage. full of this desire to condemn people, almost to put a target on their back. he always has plausible deniability when he does these things, but we know exactly what he means. and this tweet tonight suggests that perhaps he has listen to what his lawyers have said, that he appreciates that there are consequences. because, as glenn says, there are real consequences, even for a presidential candidate who goes too far. judges and courts will give him a lot of latitude to conduct his campaign, but ultimately, he remains on bond pending trial at the pleasure of the court. and if he displeases the court in a serious way, he may well find that that bond can be revoked, or additional conditions can be imposed upon him if he wants to stay out of jail pending trial. >> i think the control room has the tweet, if so, let's put it up so the audience can see what joyce is talking about in terms of it being vanilla for donald trump. he just puts his mugshot out there as if he's proud of it, and he says election interference, then he says never surrender, and that's it. so that is a very good point, amy lee copeland, that that's as far as he went tonight. it is that very simple thing. of course, it is his first tweet since he was banned from twitter. i think he was, tonight, trying to go for some sort of record on twitter. but, amy lee copeland, how strict do you expect judge mcafee to be in the supervision of those conditions? >> it's going to be difficult for any judge dealing with the former president of the united states. but there will come a point when the judge isn't going to take it anymore. i was reading about mr. trump's other troubles. how did other judges handle situations like this? because he's a person who seems incapable of not talking to people, of not putting out what he's saying on social media. i did read in the course of the trump organization's financial records subpoena that the judge in new york state court imposed a civil contempt fine on the organization of $10,000 a day until the organization complied. and, eventually, it got up to $110,000 of sanctions before the trump organization complied. i'm not sure about the availability of civil contempt for finds like that in this case, but it may be something to explore. when mr. trump that -- it not if mr. trump does this, but when he does this, we're all expecting these gabon conditions to be breached. >> harry litman, how do you see the federal judges involved? certainly, judge cannon in florida, we can expect to be extremely lenient about any of these issues. but judge chutkan and washington d.c., and jackson's case there, she has a set of conditions to enforce to. >> she does, and they are similar. and i think it's clear she -- nobody really wants to be in the position of ordering him to jail, but look at that mugshot, lawrence. it would've seemed impossible, or at least implausible, a few weeks ago. and it happened. and the point that miss copeland just made is that, judges will say at some point, next time mr. trump. and by the way, it's one thing to make borderline questions and comments, it's another to if you have a straightforward violation like speaking to a witness, that will make it harsher. but i think it was important, people thought it was maybe just as spectators when the first hearing occurred before judge chutkan, there were many other members of the court there, including the chief judge. i think that court is going to have a certain solidarity, and she's going to have counselors and people with her to, sort of, has one. the courts prestige and authorities on the line. i think she will forestall as much as she can, but the time can come where there is literally no other choice. and, just as we see a mugshot that we might have never believed we would, we might see that the jailed or killing keen behind him for a couple days. >> joining our discussion now is georgia state representative tanya miller. she is a former fulton county assistant district attorney and former federal prosecutor. tell us what you saw today in the way fani willis in fulton county process this arrest, the first arrest in history there of a former president of the united states. >> well, i can tell you, lawrence, that the former president probably was processed in and out of the jail faster than any person that i've ever seen in my 20 years of practicing law in this jurisdiction. i think there was a lot of coordination. obviously so, for how to do this in a manner that is safe and efficient. i think we saw the best hour professionals at the fulton county jail and our law enforcement partners, who secured the scene. there were several roads that were shut down, so that the president, the former president could matriculate to the jail without much fuss and safety for him. and other folks involved. he was in an out and what, 20 minutes? so, i think that is a testament to our county being on high alert, our being prepared and communicating with each other, and trying to temper down this circus atmosphere and really just conduct the business of engaging in a criminal prosecution and treating this president, as best we can, like we would any defendant been robbed for the court. >> with your experience, representative miller, as a former assistant district attorney in fulton county, when you saw defendant chesebro file his speedy trial motion, i think yesterday, it's all happening so fast, i imagined you anticipated what district attorney willis's response would be. was her response when you anticipated? >> absolutely, lawrence. when i was a prosecutor in fulton county alongside amanda va, one of our models was the state is always ready. and that's for our run-of-the-mill cases. you better believe that all of this time, as your guests have already pointed out, that this office has been investigating this case has spent organizing and preparing for trial. this isn't funny wells's first rodeo. she has done several high-profile cases. she tried one of the longest cases in georgia state history. she understands how to move a big case through the system. so, i would guess that even before they indicted this case, they were prepared with that schedule. they understand all contingencies, and they're ready for those contingencies. not surprised at all by her response. >> so, it's not every day that a prominent defendant switches defense council on, basically, the very day of his arrest after two and a half year investigation that he knew about. donald trump's new georgia defense lawyer is steve saddle. i don't know if you had any experience with him. as an assistant attorney yourself. what did you make of that changing of attorneys right at that last minute before the arrest? >> i think that that could mean a lot of things. i won't speculate about what was going on in terms of the relationship between mr. trump and drew findling, who was his first defense attorney. i will say this about both drew findling and steve sadow. they are two of the most experienced defense lawyers in this jurisdiction. it's somewhat a pot and a cattle, if you just talking about their experience and their abilities in this jurisdiction and in a courtroom. perhaps there was some personality conflicts, we don't know, that's sheer speculation. we know there were some comments about mr. findling. his feelings about some of the presidents politics, and his ability to separate that in doing his job as a defense lawyer. so, i guess we will see. i know that mr. findling does not like to try his casings in the media. he will not be a good defense lawyer for you if you want to do it reality tv star style. he is focused on what needs to be done in the courtroom, and perhaps that was a source of some contention, but again, that's sheer speculation at this point. >> georgia representative and former fulton county district assistant attorney tanya miller, thank you so much for joining us we are with your invaluable perspective tonight. >> thank you, lawrence. >> and, gwen keyes fleming, what was your reaction to the sudden switch of defense lawyers for donald trump? >> well, i would have to agree with representative miller. both of these gentlemen are outstanding defense lawyers. i tried cases against them as i was coming up in the fulton county district attorney's office as a young prosecutor. and so, i anticipate that they will be able to launch a very fulsome defense strategy in support of their client. in terms of the transition, that is always a personal decision that it defendant gets to make. it's not just about someone who understands the law. that relationship is usually, that client attorney relationship, is usually a very close one. and things really should click in order for the strategy to work to the defendants best advantage. i'm not surprised that there are changes at this level that happens often in cases where the stakes are so high. and i'm sure mr. sadow will get up to speed very quickly, and we've already seen him file's emotions, and we can no doubt expect to see more. >> copeland, when you see a switch like that in this situation, it might also indicate a change of mind or understanding of the defendant himself, some kind of realization that okay, this is real, this is heavier than i thought. i'm not happy. i need -- i want somebody better. certainly, if donald trump was making the change, you never know whether the lawyer quit or donald trump fired him. but if it's not making the change, don from has to believe he's upgrading. >> that would be, i think, a fair inference. but i agree with what gwen and the representative said, they're both stellar. sometimes, the break between an investigation and an indictment is an actual break for people to change defenses journeys. sometimes, i think there might be some concern that if you represent somebody during investigation, you didn't successfully prevent an indictment, that perhaps the criminal defendant blames the attorney about that. i'm just not sure. my gut reaction is that perhaps mr. findling to told mr. trump something he simply didn't want to hear, or didn't like. but i know steve sadow by reputation, and i know he's a powerhouse. and i know he will talk honestly to his client. so it's tough to know exactly what happened. >> joyce vance, we have seen the other criminal defense lawyers representing donald trump have absolutely no control over their client at all, to the point of abject unprofessionalism. one of them was asked on meet the press, is jack smith deranged? and he refused to answer the question. and so, the question of how these lawyers all interact with donald trump also includes another question of how they interact with each other. is this case separate enough from say, the documents case, that there doesn't need to be in right action there, separate enough from manhattan so that are there doesn't have to be an interaction there. it clearly is not separate from the washington d.c. case that jack smith has brought, and what kind of interaction does the georgia criminal defense lawyer have to have with the team in washington? >> it's a really interesting question, and it sort of brings the choice of steve sadow to help this defense in georgia into focus. because he's the kind of lawyer who has been around for a long time. he's been doing this since decades ago. he has handled a lot of complicated cases. he is involved in another rico prosecution that is ongoing in georgia. so he will likely have pre-existing relationships with some of these other lawyers and inability to interface in a way that they may have to as they begin to realize that there is an overlap of witnesses, and something that's very important to criminal defendants is understanding where there might be inconsistencies in witness statements that can be exploited. so there's a lot of fertile territory there for lawyers representing mr. trump to work together. but trump comes to this new legal relationship as a very different defendant, lawrence. he is no longer the president of the united states. he is no longer someone who has never been indicted. we have seen so many of trump's lawyers run into problems, including those who now stand as his codefendants. steve sadow, i think, will set a very different set of rules for his client. he will make playing that he will represent him for as long as he abides by the conditions of his bond, and that saddle will be honest with him as he discusses the risks involved with going to trial. but something that i know about steve, having ironically -- he is not afraid to go to trial. even one of the tough case, when it's an uphill battle, he's the kind of lawyer who will go to trial, try to exploit missteps by the government, some of the technical sorts of mistakes that can give his client in advantage. and he will be unafraid to vigorously represent his client here. >> oh harry litman, a lot of focus on donald trump's criminal defense trial lawyers, but we may be a year or so away from donald trump's appeals lawyer is being the most important lawyers in his life. >> yeah, i mean, eventually, it's very possible that one or more of these cases will end up in front of the supreme court. i do just want to go back to sadow. he's a strong lawyer, there's no doubt about it. but i would have a slightly different tag. i do think we are seeing trump getting nervous. the plain vanilla statement that joyce talked about, he has begun to actually push in his statements in terms of i believed we had one. rather than outright line. he canceled the monday press conference. look, however glowering anti job he looked in that picture, i think he's scared. and that kind of change, yes, he's erratic, but it also shows he is really worried about what kind of trial council he will have. your point though is extremely well taken, because under any scenario, people are worried about finishing by december. there is no scenario in which any cases run through appeals by november 2024. and if he becomes president, that means at least federal cases he can make stand on. so really, the best hope is for a trial to be completed and a jury verdict. but things can go all the way to the supreme court. >> oh gwen keyes fleming, what is a rough time table for an appeal of a case like this in georgia, leaving out the question of whether the appeal tries to reach outside of georgia to the united states supreme court? what would that appeals timetable look like? >> well, again, i think with a speedy trial demand on the docket, the judges of the court of appeals or the justices of the supreme court will try to rule as quickly as possible. i certainly think you are trying to see that from the federal level with judge jones. and so, again, i think now that we have a speedy trial demand, that is going to force all parties, or at least encourage all parties, to come to decisions quickly. so it's really hard to say how long things may take. >> joyce vance, the speedy trial issue is so fascinating to juxtapose to the trump lawyers saying, we're going to be getting this massive amount of discovery that we need a very long time to study. one would think that chesebro needs time to study that same pile of discovery material. is it possible that, down the road, there could be discovery that emerges after chesebro's trial that is actually relevant to them? >> so, it's an interesting question. and it's a risk that gets run in every case. something that prosecutors are obligated to do is to turn over to defendants anything that could be exculpatory. anything that could help a defendant establish that they're not guilty. and prosecutors also have an obligation to turn over evidence that involves the veracity, the truthfulness of witnesses. a failure by prosecutors to do that can lead to a reversal of a case downstream, so that something that everyone involved in these sorts of cases takes very seriously. asked to other evidence, you know, it seems likely that willis has used her grand jury and her time very thoughtfully to compile the evidence that she intends to put on a trial. and so, although you do see from time to time a defendant who comes forward after the fact and says look, there is evidence that through no fault of anyone's, was not known at the time that i was tried, but it's devilish is that i'm not guilty, they make a claim of actual innocence and try to have their conviction overturned on that point. that is extraordinarily rare, very unlikely to happen here where an investigative grand jury has exhaustively spoken with witnesses. and i suspect that willis will do what we saw jack smith do in the federal system. rather than having piecemeal discovery, she will have a package ready, and she will be turning that over to these defendants shortly after they are reigned. >> amy lee copeland, do you think donald trump's criminal defense lawyers know want to see a speedy trial for defendant chesebro? >> i think it would help them. i don't think it would be terribly bad for him, especially if he gets convicted. if he can say, listen, i listen to this guy and he has been convicted by a jury. and clearly, this was terrible advice. but, you know, there's that old sane, may you live in interesting times. and here we are. this is just unprecedented. i do think one of the things to kind of go on what joyce was saying about steve sadow and the other trump attorneys, it will be nice to have a sounding board. because nobody knows much about this, because fortunately, we've made it through 44 presidents without this ever happening. so, this will be a real benefit of having other counsel for him to talk to. >> amy look copeland, gwen keyes fleming, joyce vance, harry litman, tank you very much for joining us on this important night. we really appreciate it. we'll be right back. we'll be right back. that's me before dawn powerwash. 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