the republican party is, -- this isn't editorializing -- no longer a normal party. the front runner for the nomination is a twice impeached ex president who's been indicted four times in the last four months, in four different jurisdictions. that same front runner has a little respect or voters and election process that he refuses to even participate in this debate, and no other candidate with a real shot of winning the nomination is willing to take on that front runner. no one is up to the task of condemning him. in fact, they are more likely to embrace a potential criminal -- potentially criminally actions. this debate is about far more than winning votes. we will see on full display a party that has all but abandoned democracy and our countries small d democratic values. this week, we need to know whether these candidates will adhere to the rule of law. whether they will accept the results of free and fair elections, and whether they will allow us to uphold our institutions. so that's what we are discussing tonight. not who is up or who is down. we are way beyond that. and we will be doing a disservice to you if we try to make it seem like this upcoming debate is anything less than a critical test for the future of the republican party. i'm joined by my colleagues, ayman wyden, elicit men and, as mehdi hasan, reverend al sharpton, and for this first conversation, jen psaki sticks around with us because she has just been having some of this conversation, on your show. you are, as we should, as journalists, being respectful of the fact that there is a process here, right? there are some fair minded republican primary voters who are going to watch this thing to try and make a decision. they maybe don't like joe biden, or they just like to think there is a real political process, and something akin to a debate may occur. but how you get your head around the fact that this is just weird? >> first, it's important you stated that, as you did in your opening their, ali. i try to talk about that over the last hour as well. but you are, right there are a number of candidates who seem to be going to the debate on wednesday prepared to talk about a range of issues. some of them could actually be kind of interesting. where do they stand on social security, abortion rights? they have some differences on issues like the war in ukraine that i know you've covered and talked about. so that is going to be happening, but there is no question, and the debate moderators, martha mccallum and frank barrett, also said this. all this goes through trump. trump is the front runner by far. there are new polls out today suggest that. this question of how they are going to move through him, none of these candidates seem to have figured it out quite yet. >> jen, you mention brett bexar and martha mccallum. do you think it is weird that we will be seeing republican candidates talk about the election to the rule of law on a fox host a debate with two moderators who in the dominion lawsuit did not seem that interested in the will of the people? >> i, mean i think you answered your own question there, mehdi, right? but i think it is going to be, this week is very weird for a range of reasons. what is interesting, and i will believe it when i say it, and you, mehdi, and others are more skeptical than i, am martha mccallum, they've done a bunch of interviews she is sort of alluded to this possibility that she might ask the candidates whether they think the 2020 election was legitimately won or won by joe biden. again, i will believe it when i see it. but that would be a very interesting moment. i don't think it makes all of them defenders of democracy, but it would certainly be a moment on that stage. >> and, janelle sharpton. when you look at the center for the debate, obviously chris christie is expected to be pounding on donald trump. but do you think any of them will start going after each other? for example, when you look at governor desantis, who has done things in terms of trying to censor parts of history for blacks, lgbtq in his state, or his firing of two state attorneys. couldn't some of them are one of them go after him, saying in many ways he has done things that are against the interest of the people that voted in the case of the states attorneys a vote? do you think any of that may happen that night? >> reverend al, i think we would all love to see that happen. and that is some of his, many of his actions are so outrageous. that is fertile territory. there is no question, i'm going to quote karen, done a very experienced debate prep or and legal eagle who i just had on the last hour, who said that desantis is likely going to be mauled by all these candidates. and the reason, why i don't know that they will bring up the very sensible argument you just made, i think it's probably unlikely, is that desantis has long been the obvious alternative to trump. the person who many people thought at some point, since november, december, could overtake trump. but even beyond that, he still has hung in second place in the polls recently. but there has been movement, there has been some movement. vivek ramaswamy has moved up a little bit. chris christie has moved up in new hampshire. they smell above in the water. i expect a lot of them will go after desantis. >> jen, you are familiar with the way that party infrastructure works. i am so struck by the fact you've already -- rnc chair ronna mcdaniel's practically begging donald trump to come to the debate, after putting in place what is a really wonky set of criteria that these candidates need to -- the fact that you have multiple candidates saying, i've cleared that hurdle, i can be on the debate stage, and the rnc is like, well, we are not so sure, we haven't figure that out yet. what does it say, not just about the party, but about the institutions? the infrastructure of the party itself that you have them, a few days out from the debate, begging him to be onstage. >> that it is trump's party. all of these candidates, you know, about four of the candidates running for president now in the republican side have been critical of trump and all of the things he's done including trying to overturn the will of the american public and also withhold classified documents and obstruct justice. only four of them have. but it is still trump's party. it is still a party run by the maga wing of the trump republican party. think about, this pledge that the rnc is trying to get them all to take, chris christie basically said, sure, i will try to send a pledge, but i'm not going to abide by it. so, what does that even mean, right? it is still a party that is dominated and run by trump, run a mcdaniel knows, that i think. people going to the bag on wednesday know that. >> jen, can i ask you a slightly broader question about how the rest of the media should cover what happens on wednesday night? because i am looking at it in the context of this week. donald trump is not going to be there, thursday morning donald trump is supposed to be turning himself over, or surrendering himself to the district attorney in georgia. that is going to suck a lot of the wind out of the coverage. and the media is going to be focused on donald trump, either not being at the debate or on thursday not enough room to be talking about what actually happens on wednesday. what is the bigger conversation that should be had for journalists? you've been on both sides of this now. now as a, host previously as a communications expert at the white house. what should the media be doing in talking about in the run up to wednesday night? >> well, look, i think there are some realities here. it is still a political election. donald trump is still far and away the front runner on the republican side. that may defy gravity and bend our minds, given that he's been impeached twice, as ali opened the show talking about. indicted 91 counts here. but he is still far and away the republican front runner. so he still, i think, warrants a fair amount of coverage in that regard. there are still some interesting substantive debates that could be a part, maybe not the front and center part of this debate, but a part of the discussion and debate on wednesday night. they have all -- a number of these candidates have been a little wiggly on things like abortion rights. we all raise their hands and say they support a federal abortion ban. that would be a moment. they are in different places and things like privatizing social security. they have been in different places as it relates to aid and assistance to ukraine. i'm not naive enough to think that is going to dominate coverage or should, but that is an interesting backdrop of what could also happen on wednesday. but i think there is no question, having been on all sides of, it as you said, the story this week is, yes, the republican debate is happening, but the story is also that a republican, a former republican president and the front runner has to turn himself in to a courthouse this week, reportedly maybe on thursday. and that is still going to be the photo from history from this week, regardless of what happens on wednesday night at the debate. >> and of, course vivek ramaswamy's main goal, as he thinks about his own performance this week, is to lose yourself. [laughter] sorry, i couldn't -- all of you have not been falling, vivek ramaswamy at one of the state fairs turned out to be eminem fan and gave a little wrap of lose yourself. >> ali has said on that wrap at some point -- >> that's right. >> he did it much better. >> jen, good to see you. thank, you my friend, for sticking around. you have a great show of your. own camp ahead, ruth -- joins us. she is an expert on authoritarianism, and she says authoritarians and goal is to control the judiciary so his legal troubles can permanently vanish. i wonder who she is talking about? we will talk about it on the other side. ♪ ♪ ♪ utubetv, on them. (hero fan) this plan is amazing! (josh allen) another amazing plan, backing away from here very slowly. (fan #1) that was josh allen. (fan #2) mmhm. 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[sfx: gasp] [sfx: spilling sound] nooo... aya... quick, the quicker picker upper! bounty absorbs spills like a sponge. and is 2x more absorbent so you can use less. bounty, the quicker picker upper. wow, you get to watch all your favorite stuff. and is 2x more absorbent so you can use less. it's to die for. and it's all right here. streaming was never this easy, you know. this is the way. you really went all out didn't you? um, it's called commitment. could you turn down the volume? here, you can try. get way more into what your into when you stream on the xfinity 10g network. >> our next guest is someone goli, taste your goals. with whom it wouldn't be expected that you be familiar, except you are, because we talk to her an awful lot. and that's not necessarily a good thing. ruth ben-ghiat is a professor of history at new york university, and she says donald trump's refusal to appear on the debate stage is straight out of the authoritarian playbook. hungary's viktor orban skipped his presidential debate. ruth, good to see you again. i would say get to see, you and it's true. we love talking to you. but i wouldn't have guessed five years ago, ten years ago, 15 years ago, and that you and i and my colleagues here would be talking to you with the regularity with which we do. you've been sounding an alarm for a long time about authoritarianism, and you've been warning people it is not just donald trump, this party of which he is a member or he is the leader, has embraced this business of authoritarianism. a lot of people say that is hyperbole. tell me why it's not. >> well, you know, it is now a party that is dependent on lying, on corruption because election denial, a third of the house, republican members are election deniers. election denial is not just, you know, denying a fact or a believe, having a false belief. it's an act of corruption. it is refusing to recognize the rule of law and the rules of democracy. they are also dependent on violence. the point is that when a party becomes yoked to the destiny of a lawless authoritarian, his goal is to debase them and bring them down to his level. and he makes them complicit in his crimes. and so, a kind of spiral of radicalization happens where the party, and now the party elites some of them are under indictment, under investigation. they become more extreme and they take positions they never would've imagined they would take. this is why seeing the journey of this party, that's why i am calling gop 2024 a race to the bottom. >> ruth, ali makes the point you've been talking about for a long time, and i remember i think i spoke to you in 2015 or 16, when we talked about mussolini, and you had an analogy between trump and mussolini, not just with the lies, but the fake humor. it is so interesting what you say about power and the debasing of voters with dishonesty. there's a poll out today from cbs which shows, four gop voters who say honesty matters most of them, donald trump gets more than 60% support. and 70% of the republicans i think say they trust him over their own friends and family. that's not because they think he is george washington university,. they know he is a liar. it is to do more with the fact that this is about power, right? this is about the followers and the cult leader. >> some of them do believe him. this is why he started so early with the loyalty oath. i have a line in my book, strongmen, which trump is in it, so is mussolini, they believe him because they believe in him. what trump has managed to do is create this alternate reality and to set himself up as the only arbiter of truth. there are those people. then there are other people who don't believe him, and there are studies actually showing that some people like the fact that he's, like, a rogue figure and that he is kind of not telling the truth. that's part of his lawless appeal. there are many reasons people will say they trust him over their own friends and family, but from where i sit, the success of trump as having a real personality cult that rivals those of other leaders i've studied. >> ruth, isn't it so, though, that the fact that the country did deal with not sharing the right to the democratic process to large segments of the country at its growing stages -- it was over a century and change before women could even vote, blacks could even vote. in many ways, there was a broader sense of authoritarianism before we centralized it in an individual like trump. and does that not feed, to some people feeling that they should have decisions over others and why not have an individual have that kind of authoritarian power? >> absolutely. what these figures do when they come on the scene, they end up having kind of a tenth, where all the different types of extremism and racism that that country has had in its history. and they legitimize, it they give it value, and so trump was very, he was very scientific about this. i doubt that the neo-nazis who were in charlottesville ever thought that a sitting president would tell them that they were very fine people. so there he was playing to all races, to all extremists. and all these people feel they have a home for the first time. this has happened in many countries, and it was our turn. i saw him doing what others have done before with great success. >> it always takes my breath away when you say it's our turn, because we want to imagine it was never going to be our turn. i'm struck by the fact that not only is donald trump not going to be on the debate stage with all of the other republican hopefuls, but there is the possibility of his doing something else, right? of choosing to sit down, whether with tucker carlson, weather with someone else in the right-wing echo chamber. in what way is that we pulled from the authoritarian playbook? >> i wasn't at all surprised that he is not going to show, up although you never know. he could kind of want to shake a few things up and come at the 11th hour. but, you know, debate is a kind of mock exercise in democracy. you have people onstage who are considered as equals, and they are banned by rules that all of the must follow, and there is a third party, you know, a moderator and arbiter. and this is and at the much of the authoritarian playbook. trump has invested a huge amount of time in trading himself to be the man above all other man, and the man who is not only lawless, who doesn't care about the rule of law, but he bends the law to suit himself. and so being on the debate stage, just like all the other people and subject their questioning is bad for his brand. that's also why putin, when he ran for office the very first time, in 1999, 2000, he refused to debate. viktor orban in victory -- in hungary refuses to debate. these quote strongman which i write about, they are actually very afraid of looking weak. they can't submit to a debate. >> ruth, let me ask you about the process of how quickly this has happened. in other countries, when you compare donald trump, perhaps, to dictators elsewhere, there is always an element of violence with which they bring about fear to the institutions or the parties they are trying to take over. obviously, that type of violence has not happened here. but what is donald trump has been able to do with lightning speed, i would argue, in trying to transform the republican party in just five years from being, at least by american political standards, a normal party, to now an undemocratic authoritarian party? >> i'm so glad you asked that, because we are going to look back at this and be astonished at what he has accomplished. when people say he is lazy or just a clown, that's not at all the case. he's extremely effective. just taking his ability to work his magic and propaganda, i actually don't know of another case where someone convinced, what, 50, 60 million people that he won an election, a national election with working inside a democracy. he wasn't working like the fascists with a one party state, with a closed, you know, press environment. we had a pluralistic, free press. we had a democracy, and he still managed to do this. as we were talking before, even three years, you know, later, people believe him more than their own family members. this is an enormous accomplishment, and it happened very rapidly. >> and you point out in your book, and you've said many times, when you just say the lie over and over again, it takes root. one of the most surprising things, people said, what did you get out of reading the indictments that you didn't know? it is the degree of sophistication, the idea that this was not bumbling, this was not, what is the image so many of us have of rudy giuliani with makeup sweating from his hair or hair dye dripping at the four seasons landscaping place in philadelphia, and what a clown cart it seemed to be, but when you read these indictments, jack smith and fani willis's indictments, it's not a clown car at all. it was a very sophisticated operation that came within the hairs breath of overturning democracy in america. >> yes, so it is very scary to think that. and that's why, in part, people, they need the humor and the relief of saying that they are clowns. but people thought that mussolini was a clown. they certainly thought hitler was a ranting lunatic, and how could sophisticated germany, which had the highest, the most sophisticated engineering, science, medicine, graphic design in the world, how could they have a hitler? and so, we are always technologically unprepared for these things, which is why i have been trying to speak out over the years to say it can happen to anyone, given the right circumstances. >> but isn't it also true that the sophistication, i agree with, how it was done, but it's also true that donald trump didn't create a lot of the fervor that we are seeing in -- and the misogyny, homophobia, and racism. he brought it out and gave it legitimacy. you said, in homes resided at 1600 pennsylvania avenue. they felt that they finally came of age with a feeling that many of them already had. >> that's right. and in fact, you, know it is very striking that fans of the original fascists, they would say that mussolini or hitler, when they spoke, it was like they were saying something, they were expressing something that people didn't know how to express, and a demagogue was doing it for them. these showman, many of them have a past with communications or journalism. they know how to bring out people, a feeling and make it part of a larger movement. it's interesting that, originally, trump used to say he was building a movement. but it doesn't work unless these things are already in the culture. and just look at the toxic masculinity and who do we have? we have someone who, you know, right before the 2016 election came out, his kind of sexism and boasting about sexual assault. i had a feeling, unfortunately this would make him more popular. because once these energies of lawlessness in all areas are unleashed. it is very difficult to kind of put them back in place. and if the whole party converts itself to a lawless operation, a criminal organization, which is what the indictment out of georgia was kind of saying it was, it is very difficult to contain that. unfortunately, it has to burn itself out sometimes. >> ruth, thanks as always. we appreciate you being with us and letting us understand these things through your lens. a very important lens that really shines bright right now. thanks so much for. that ruth ben-ghiat is a professor at nyu. many, you and i, you were talking about how long you spent talking to ruth about these things. you and i were in hungry, where they are not very democratic leader is sort of in cahoots with the republican party here. fox news has gone over and done shows in hungary, viktor orban comes and speaks at cpac. nobody is hiding from this. >> no, this is a party white phenomenon. this is will be on trump now. trump's, and whatever you want to call, it fascism, and this is a party infected by its. and when orban comes and speaks and gets cheered, that's a reminder. also, by the way, ali, a lot of these fascist movements around the world, it's a lot of older people. in the united states, you look at some of these young conservatives, some of the people who are pushing the stuff online, it's a lot of young people. it's very scary what they are saying at some of these rallies. i think we have to expect, even donald trump was run over by bus tomorrow, just disappear from the political, seen this is here to stay. that is why it is so important that we discuss this in the context of a gop reckoning. >> and, yet if this were a normal debate, something would happen on wednesday. someone other than chris christie, maybe asa hutchinson, if he shows up, will say, this is not the future we want, this is not the party that we are. this is not what we were built. on this is not the party of lincoln. i'm not holding my breath. >> then you also have to accept the frame that this isn't just about donald trump. >> yes, yes. >> if he were no longer a viable candidate, they would still have his positions on immigration. they would still have his positions on america first. they would still have his positions on using the supreme court to continue to have protections for reproductive freedom. he is their, whether or not he is there. and they have not reckoned with that. they have not reckoned with a trump hangover. >> the criminality, the grift, that whole stuff, that's what i wonder about. if without donald trump, would there be that? senator tim scott since he wants the most primitive abortion laws in the country. you saw mike pence who that's all he's got, relying on the fact that he speaks to god regularly and wanting to make sure sodas ref, i've got my own guy for that. with their b this criminality? this indictment shows you that this was a criminal alleged enterprise. >> a short answer is yes. when i fear the most is the playbook for the criminality has been written. we came within a harris breath in 2016 of having our democracy overturned, as you mentioned. one of the things we learned since then, through these indictments, is a lot of the things that we took for granted in this country were not actually rules and laws that were put in place, and they were norms politicians abided by, and donald trump showed you do not have to abide by these norms anymore. you can have a more versus harper case that could overt overthrow and up and the way we understand the constitution by saying state legislators, they can do whatever they want. they don't answer to the judicial branch when it comes to deciding electors. you could have lawyers, you know, high-end lawyers, constitutional lawyers, smart lawyers argue that it is actually up to the governor or to whoever to decide which electors go to the electoral college. and so you realize how much we took for granted on so many of these norms. >> that they would just do good. >> right. what you will have next time, you might not have a mike pence is a vice president saying i will abide by my interpretation of the constitution. i'm not trying to heap praise on mike pence as being a great american statesman, but the way he interpreted the constitution on january 6th made him decide not to go along with trump's plan. you may get somebody else. and maybe on wednesday night, some of these guys that are vying for second place, a vivek ramaswamy, or a ron desantis are applying to be the vice president. so that in four years time from now, if this situation happens, again they are willing -- >> i will be loyal to you. >> exactly. >> mike pence failed you. >> but it doesn't go against american history. they used to call it states rights. we had a civil war about this. >> right. >> i think in many ways, if the debate is just about donald trump, like it's an individual, and not that he represents what it has been a strain throughout american history. that is what they ought to be debating about. what does america really stand for? i doubt that any of them want to do that, because many of them, ideologically, agree with that hole process. >> rev makes such a good point. ron desantis was going to be at the center of that they john was a. night he has, as you pointed, out five attorneys gone against the constitution, then lots of anti-democratic things of florida. they will pylon to run the sentence, but i suspect they won't belong to him over his anti democratic behavior, we will pylon to about the lack of personality or charm, but i won't go after him for his actual anti-democratic policies, which will be a reminder that they are all fine with it. >> after the break, there's a lot more to discuss. he's been impeached twice, indicted four times, and yet none of the main republican candidates will actually stand up to this wannabe authoritarian. more shopping? you should watch your spending honey. i'm saving with liberty mutual, mom. they customize your car insurance so you only pay for what you need. check it out, you could save $700 dollars just by switching. ooooh, i'll look into that. let me put a reminder on my phone. save $700 dollars. pick up dad from airport? 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[voice vibrating] ♪ ♪ ♪♪ voltaren. the joy of movement. ♪♪ ♪ ♪ voltaren. with artificial intelligence, groundbreaking transparent hood technology, and intuitive design inside and out. ♪ ♪ this is the all-new glc. completely reimagined. ♪ ♪ ♪ >> i think we just have to sit for a moment and think about where we are. the former president of the united states has been invited -- indicted for times now, and invited to court. 91 separate charges in four different jurisdictions, and not one candidate who has a real chance of winning the republican presidential nomination is willing to stand up to him in any real and meaningful way. i'm back now with my colleagues, ayman mohyeldin, alicia menendez, reverend al sharpton, and mehdi hasan. rev, i want to start with you. the rest of us know a lot of things about a lot of things, but you ran for president. you did not run for president as a guy who it was obvious to you that it was going to be an easy road to winning. so you got up there to make a point, to make a statement, a breakthrough in some fashion. what is happening right now? there seems to be a remarkable effort not to address the elephant in the room. >> which is why this is so, in my opinion, significant that they will not stand up to trump, because their basic politics agrees with trump's in terms of trying to deal with the country the way it used to be and many of the movements that pushed it in many different ways. but as we said tonight, unfortunately we input laws and legislations that would cement the way we had moved the country. and then when they could stack the supreme court, they were able to just flip affirmative action, flip women's right to choose. and trump was doing this and playing saint. the man went into the white house and hung in the oval office a picture of andrew jackson. no one saw this man was the biggest slave owner, racist in american history. why would donald trump put that picture up? he is telling you this is what i'm about. no one objected to that. i think going to the debates -- i thought i'd be president, i went to the debates to go against andrew jackson, stand up for jesse jackson kind of politics. i think that is what we are not debating in this country. we are dealing, we are letting them reduce us to the personality of donald trump rather than what this country is going to stand for. >> again, if this were a normal debate, you know, the expert we've got the at the table is mehdi hassan. hasse -- mehdi, you got a remarkable resume when it comes to debating in the most important forums in the world. you had a tv show in the in which that's what you actually did. if people were to read your book and try to determine how to be a good debater, what with the success of that look like in this particular debate? because nobody seems to be wanting to make policy points on wednesday. so what does success look like if donald trump doesn't show up? >> i mean, it's not a debate, because when you go into a debate, ali, you go in to win, right? when i do debates, when i've done debate, i sit and i prepare and think, this is what i want to achieve, i'm going to win. this is how i'm going to win. but they are all running against donald trump. to win, they have to beat donald trump. they have to go after donald trump. they have to call him out. they are not going to do that. maybe chris christie will, maybe asa hutchinson will. by the way, we keep saying maybe chris christie will, he has no credibility when he doesn't. this man was one of trump's greatest -- let's never forget that. the reality is if they don't go after donald trump and they are not really debating, to be honest. >> they are not actually trying to. when >> they are not trying to win. >> they are hoping he comes incapacitated -- >> they are either running for vice president, which some of them are clearly doing, nikki haley, vivek ramaswamy, all of them hoping he will disappear in a legal fog, ron desantis, tim scott, they can inherit his votes. >> i think of it as a multi waved -- multi lane highway, there's chris christie ready to prosecute the case against donald trump in his lane, and in an ordinary population that would be the populist, the full populous, the libertarians, those lanes did not exist here. because all of them are backed up in the donald trump lane. until they are willing to call him out, they exist in that lane together. maybe something happens to, him he gets taken off the map. they are still all there. they have not differentiated themselves. what you are left, with there is rhonda scent is, there's a question whether ron desantis even survives after this debate, you are left with a replica knock off. >> at the end of the day, none of these candidates have offered a different vision than donald trump. pure and simple. >> they've said something, none of them -- vivek ramaswamy and nikki haley have talked about something from a new generation. >> yeah, they make a generational. or in the case of i believe ron desantis trying to cite donald trump is distracted, but really he's a great guy, he's a good guy. but ultimately, none of these people are going up on the stage wednesday to offer americans something different. why? because we are so far removed from that debate in this country. there is not going to be any genuine conversation about policy. to kind of go back to how we started the conversation this evening about bret baier and martha maccallum. they share the stage with these people. how this conversation unfolds wednesday is going to be more about them than it is about these candidates. because if they go up there and try to pretend that they want to ask legitimate questions about policy and what do you think about health care or bidenomics, which is what we think of back ten, 15 years ago, that is different than going up there and asking every single person on that stage the questions about the fundamental identity of this country, and our democracy. and whether you are committed to that or whether you are not. so i think, honestly, i am looking out to see what brett and martha do, as much as i'm looking out to see what these candidates are going to be talking about. they will set the tone for that evening. it'll be interesting to see how much they reign the conversation back to where needs to be, and not let the people like vivek ramaswamy take the mic and run with it. >> he's given us the best reason to watch this thing on wednesday night. we will take a quick break. then we will talk about how to see through the gop's lies and misrepresentations, because we have got the great mehdi hasan with us. he's going to give us an important lesson. ♪ ♪ ♪ ent bleeding gums. try saying 'hello gumwash' with parodontax active gum health. it kills 99% plaque bacteria. and forms an antibacterial shield. try parodontax active gum health mouthwash. try killing bugs the worry-free way. not the other way. zevo traps use light to attract and trap flying insects with no odor and no mess. they work continuously, so you don't have to. zevo. people-friendly. bug-deadly. moderate to severe eczema still disrupts my skin. despite treatment it disrupts my skin with itch. it disrupts my skin with rash. but now, i can disrupt eczema with rinvoq. rinvoq is not a steroid, topical, or injection. it's one pill, once a day. many taking rinvoq saw clear or almost-clear skin while some saw up to 100% clear skin. and, they felt dramatic and fast itch relief some as early as 2 days. that's rinvoq relief. rinvoq can lower your ability to fight infections, including tb. serious infections and blood clots, some fatal, cancers including lymphoma and skin cancer, death, heart attack, stroke, and tears in the stomach or intestines occurred. people 50 and older with at least one heart disease risk factor have higher risks. don't take if allergic to rinvoq, as serious reactions can occur. tell your doctor if you are or may become pregnant. disrupt the itch and rash of eczema. talk to your doctor about rinvoq. learn how abbvie can help you save. ♪ ♪ ♪♪ voltaren. the joy of movement. ♪♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ >> to see through the lens of misrepresentation of the current republican primary field. it's helpful to understand how they argue and if you want to understand how someone argues and how someone wins an argument we know someone. >> a new york times bestselling book. >> mehdi has on. >> you win every argument, the name in the book it came out earlier this year, it's fantastic. it's must reading for anybody who has any relationships with anybody in the world. [laughter] >> or to end. them. >> most of the book says on my bookshelf at this it's on my desk all the time. mehdi, let's talk about this. we've all acknowledged something weird, it's not normal what's happening, this race is not normal, that said there are people who like to end theory when the republican nomination. it's something that a lot of people are running against donald trump, 50 points ahead of everyone. there's doubt about donald trump. timely about how this argument to go? >> when we were talking before the gate of what is the purpose of the debate, you go to when you should be aggressive. you should be -- have your facts. you should be able to address people's feelings, all that stuff. the desantis memo came out last week where his advisers in the pack is saying, give a positive vision, hammer ramaswamy, come up with silly nicknames, fake vivek, everyone's thinking along the same lines but they don't know what to do about donald trump as we've been discussing this hour. what's interesting is people's chances can be decided in these. things i think sometimes we think that debates, they don't matter, or we think -- neither of those are true. it can play a real role in the presidential candidate. i saw this example that say the debates matter, talk to michael bloomberg. who turned up in las vegas, february 2020, was standing next to elizabeth warren. we have a clip, she did this. >> i'd like to talk about who were running against. billionaire who calls women fat broad's. and horse faced lesbians. and i know, i'm not talking about donald trump i'm talking about mayor bloomberg. don't take a huge risk if we just substitute one arrogant billionaire for another. >> elizabeth warren there. destroyed michael bloomberg. >> talking about that night -- >> wikipedia -- cause of death along elizabeth warren -- i interviewed him for the book. they practiced all week. that wasn't spontaneous. it was 59 seconds of gold from her. which she, oklahoma debate winner. what g w on a debate scholarship. she destroyed. -- people were talking about him, rising in front of. am he pulled out two weeks after the debate. rhonda santos is in the bloomberg role this wednesday. everyone's been looking to take him down. all those temps taught, nikki haley, vivek ramaswamy, they're sitting with their teams tonight as we are doing the show. they're going through their alliance, their zingers, their moments to go off to desantis. and the thing is it's easy to go off on desantis. he is an awful candidate. >> do any of them actually have the appetite -- to prosecute the case against donald trump? i was re-reading, what's the tactic by which they do that, is a telling the story, is appealing to the emotion, how do you get inside the circle with people, meaning the gop base, with donald trump? >> telling a story is key. telling stories a key for the gop base who love stories, both fact and fiction. tell stories to when them home. i think something donald trump said not so well is the ad hominem attack. if all those candidates, and this is a big f, i won't hold my breath as ali said earlier. if they came together and hammer donald trump for indictment, two impeachments, even if they did it from a whitening perspective that he's a distraction, he's the past, we need to move on, we can't risk -- >> i'm not saying that break through the trump cult. but eight or nine people all hammering trump individually. that has an impact on peoples, on the candidates credibility. no one's willing to attack trump. that's been the problem since day one. ron desantis is running in the ted cruz, remember ted cruz? that was my friend into the very end. he's about -- to late, ted. >> we have to interrupt this for a second. we need to do something very weird and not just the whole debate thing is weird. the fact that this panel breaks up right now. because ayman needs to leave at 8:50 pm. >> i have a show coming up in ten minutes. >> you need ten minutes to prep for your shell? >> no, my producer say need to go and get ready. >> he walked slowly. >> we will allow ayman to leave. what you should watch his show in the next ten minutes. we'll take a quick break to rearrange the chairs. we'll be right back. ♪ ♪ ♪ (hero fan) uh, yea. i have to watch my neighbors' nfl sunday ticket. 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(echoes) shhhh. apartments.com the place to find a place. ♪ ♪ ♪ >> now that he's gone i can actually say, whose idea was it to be one or, it should been to, but that would've involve negotiations with ayman, who watch in five minutes. as for now, there's a few seconds for final thoughts from my colleagues. alicia, let's start with you. >> in mehdi a brilliant book he talked about the appeal to a motion. what strikes me when you think of these candidates is the fact that they'll be appealing to fear. whether it's fear of the other, fair the dry clean, fear of the country that's changing that you do not recognize. it'll be the dominant emotion. and who will that benefit, donald trump. >> you're right. mehdi? >> the gop has a whole, the show is called the gop reckoning. it's a party wide authoritarian movement. the indictment you so beautifully right out over the last few weeks. remind us the way of state officials, that the oj officials, governors, secretary starts, across the country complicit in the big lie, in the attack on democracy. and that's what we should be worried about. >> we should not forget about the reason all of these officials were involved is that there is a systemic problem of really having a democracy at this country. and having people -- and that's what donald trump has become. the representative, and has exploited that, that will not be debated on wednesday night because many of his disciples are the people that are running against him. >> watch to see if anyone actually takes that to heart and says, hey, it is just a moment the republican party changes. it'll have to change one day or it will cease to exist. thank you to the three of you and thanks to ayman, on behalf of alicia menendez, mehdi hasan, and al sharpton, and on behind behalf of ayman mohyeldin. have a good night and don't go anywhere, ayman has a big hour of breaking news happening after a short break. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ for what you need. that's my boy. ♪ stay off the freeways! only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ it's not just designed to look good... only pay for what you need. it's built to command attention. it's not just a comfortable interior... it's a quiet refuge. they're not just headlights... they light the way forward. the new fully electric audi q8 e-tron models... my husband and i have never been more active. shingles doesn't care. i go to spin classes with my coworkers. good for you, shingles doesn't care. because no matter how healthy you feel, your risk of shingles sharply increases after age 50. but shingrix protects. proven over 90% effective, shingrix is a vaccine used to prevent shingles in adults 50 years and older. shingrix does not protect everyone and is not for those with severe allergic reactions to its ingredients or to a previous dose. an increased risk of guillain-barré syndrome was observed after getting shingrix. fainting can also happen. the most common side effects are pain, redness, and swelling at the injection site, muscle pain, tiredness, headache, shivering, fever, and upset stomach. shingles doesn't care but, shingrix protects. shingrix is now zero dollars for almost everyone. ask your doctor about shingrix today. the citi custom cash℠ card automatically adjusts to earn you more cash back in your top eligible spend category. hi. ♪♪ you don't have to keep tabs on rotating categories... this is the only rotating i care about. ... or activate anything to earn. your cash back automatically adjusts for you. can i get a cucumber water? earn 5% cash back that automatically adjusts to your top eligible spend category, up to $500 spent each billing cycle with the citi custom cash℠ card. i love it... [voice vibrating] ♪ ♪ ♪ goli, taste your goals. cash℠ card. >> tonight on ayman, breaking developments on the classified documents came, to form our trump officials are now contradicting the ex presidents main defense. then cash crunch donald trump's massive campaign is drying up as he spends more and more money to defend himself in court. and former republican officials are coming to the defense a special counsel, jack smith. hear why they say a speedy trial is necessary in the election interference case. i'm ayman medina, let's get started. we begin tonight with breaking news. tropical storm hilary has made lionel vallow in the back happen insulin after it was downgraded from

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