donald trump. the way to do that is to actually go after donald trump. that would take some courage between now and then. >> yeah, that is that wishful thinking, to expect these guys to show up with -- courage and nikki haley as. well alicia menendez, great to see you as always. enjoy the rest of your evening off. and we will see you tomorrow, my friend. >> thanks, ayman mohyeldin. >> good evening, and welcome to "ayman". tonight, new developments in the georgia election case. our first indication of when trump might surrender to authorities. and as trump allies push to move that case to federal court, legal experts are actually saying that would be a huge mistake. one of them, former deputy attorney general -- donald ayer will join us live to explain why. and in a landmark victory, 16 young people sued the state of montana over the climate, and guess what? the planet won. i am ayman mohyeldin. let's get started. but first, we want to begin with some breaking news on hurricane hilary. the national weather service forecasters are saying that that has just been downgraded. hurricane hilary is now a category two hurricane with estimated sustained winds at a maximum of hundred ten miles per hour. rain and wind ahead of the storm are already affecting parts of county, that is the eastern part of san diego county. and riverside county, just north of imperial county. those areas could end up bearing the brunt of the storm 's rain. the very latest from the national hurricane center it continues to warn -- catastrophic and life-threatening flooding is likely. we are going to bring you quick updates throughout the night on the trajectory of that storm, and certainly, if we get any more news we will bring that to you as soon as possible. but switching away from hurricane hilary for a moment, and focusing tonight on some new developments and quite frankly, a new timeline in the georgia election interference case. this week, the disgraced ex president and several members of his inner circle were hit with felony charges in connection with their efforts to overturn the 2020 presidential election results in georgia. the fulton county district attorney, fani willis, says that the arrest warrant has now been issued for all defend its, which have until friday august 25th to surrender voluntarily. according to new reporting from nbc news, three senior law enforcement officials say they expect trump to surrender no earlier than this upcoming thursday. that would be the day before that deadline. arraignments are set to take place of the week of september 5th, with a proposed trial date of march 4th. that's just one day before super tuesday. news reports that attorneys for trump or expected to meet early next week with the fulton county district attorney's office, in order to negotiate the terms of the ex presidents a bond package. news of that meeting comes just after trump canceled a monday press conference, you remain remember, he was supposed to unveil so-called evidence of fraud in georgia's 2020 presidential election, setting the advice of his lawyers. though, it doesn't look like that's happening. one look at his 41 count indictment, and you can kind of understand why trump's attorneys advised him to hit the brakes on at that press conference, if you will. now, sweeping 98-page documents really give us a most competitive look at how trump and his allies basically schemed to steal the election, including the quote, criminal enterprise that they built to do so. and at the heart of willis's case is one specific georgia statute. the racketeer influence and corrupt organization, or as it is commonly known if you watch any movies or law and order episodes, rico law. it is a powerful tool that allows prosecutors to bundled together what may seem like unrelated crimes or events committed by a host of different people. if those crimes are perceived to be in support of a common goal. it's also ironically a law that helped a bolster the career of one of the co-defendants in this case, rudy giuliani. >> i do think that the work in my office and other parts of the justice department have changed the definition of the problem of crime in america. >> we're going to attack it as a business, not just as individual crime. >> we followed up with some civil rico cases, and at some point in the future, -- in which we will really destroy the power of the mafia. >> i was the first one to use the racketeering statute, for public corruption. >> so, the very same law that helped the former u.s. attorney for the southern district of new york lock-up mobsters and grab the national spotlight in the process, could now very well land him behind bars. with that same sense of irony hardly applies to donald trump. former trump fixer michael cohen since once said his ex boss quote he's mafia type tactics to battle foes and advance his personal agenda. and i'm sure you may remember trump's so-called perfect 2019 phone call with volodymyr zelenskyy, which he then -- the president asked ukraine's leader, with a dialogue straight out of a mobsters movie, quote, do us a favor. so while trump has been compared to a mafia boss many times throughout this year, this week's indictment as the new yorkers susan glasser points out, marks the first time anyone has done so in a court of law. and it's this rico statute, along with several other factors unique to georgia, that really make willis's investigation perhaps the most challenging legal case for team trump. see, if the ex president does take back the white house in 2024, that job comes with a huge perk for donald trump. he has the ability to pardon himself of any federal charges. at least, that's what most scholars think, but that is still debatable. however, that power does not apply to state crimes. in georgia, unlike in many other states, there's even an added twist. it's not up to the governor of georgia to actually issue pardons, instead, that power rests with a five-person panel. to make matters even more difficult for trump, the board only considers applications for pardons beginning at least five years after an individual has completed their sentence. there's another factor that makes georgia so unique, and it's one that trump may not like. transparency in the courtroom. state law requires that cameras be allowed in judicial proceedings with a judges approval. and that means that over the next few months, americans from coast to coast could have the opportunity to tune in as the sprawling conspiracy case unfolds live on tv. so, if donald trump can attempt to run both for president and from his legal woes, this latest indictment in georgia proves there may be nowhere left for him to hide. here to discuss all of this, david henderson, so rights attorney, and the cnbc contributor, greg bluestein, political reporter for "the atlanta journal-constitution", he's also an msnbc political contributor, and michelle goldberg, a columnist for "the new york times" and msnbc analyst. three great friends of the show. great to have all three of you back. it's quite the week, both politically and legally. we will start with the legal stuff. david henderson, breakdown for us how we go is used by with us here and why the use of the statute could make this case the ex presidents for the indictment and by some assessment the most damaging one. >> ayman, i do think this is the most damaging one. i think the primary reason is because of fani willis herself. i say that because she is going after former president trump the way prosecutors typically go after defendants. -- january 6th indictment basically says, for the good of the country, we have to do this, was funny willis is saying, look, in fulton county, if you create a criminal enterprise and you're stealing, i don't care if it's stealing test scores for teachers, i don't care if it's a gangs involved in violent activity, if you're trying to steal an election, i am coming after you. and it's almost like having all six infinity stones, because it gives her an incredible amount of power inside the courtroom. -- we watched the though the january six proceedings, and if your lawyer like me, you're thinking this evidence is overwhelmingly bad. but how are you going to get you talk about it all in the case. a lot of it isn't admissible. but fani willis said it best herself, the rico statute allows you to tell the jury the entire story of what happened. whereas over acts like giuliani attacking ruby freeman and shaye moss would normally be inadmissible, in a rico case, you can talk about all of it. and the reason that's important is because a jury doesn't need a good case, a jury needs a bad guy to convict. and there are an infinite number of ways that you can prove the former president trump is exactly that when this goes to trial. >> really quickly, david, how does this play out with 19 defendants? obviously the 19 or not going to be on trial at once, or they? >> well, fani willis says she intends to try them all at once. and i have to be honest with you, i've never seen a case like that before. i treat child advocacy and i never tell my students, try a case by yourself. always -- have at least one other lawyer there or get your mom there if you have to take notes with you. that means you're talking about 19 defendants, 38 lawyers, that's 57 people. and 19 people objecting at any given point in time. but this takes me back to my original point, she's treating him like any other defendant, and her expectation is that she's going to squeeze people, people will flip, there plead, will drop out before this goes to trial, so that number will get lower down. >> so, to david's point about the fact that fani willis is really coming at this hard with the racketeering charge, this isn't the first time she's used this expensive law in georgia. she is widely considered an expert, she's even brought on somebody who's even more of an expert or consider to be more of a rico expert. how does the d. a.'s history play into this specific case with this law? >> yeah, she's telegraphed that she would seek rico charges from the very beginning, including -- her own background -- she brought on rico expert but she herself is a rico expert. about a decade ago, she brought rico charges against a group of school teachers and administrators that were perpetrating an atlanta school cheating scandal. and was successful in it. so she herself has used rico charges to go after street gangs, to go after cheating teachers. and now, potentially, after the former president. so she is kind of honed this craft over the last decade, and has the expertise in office to be able to pursue these charges. >> michelle, as i mentioned, donald trump over the years has been often compared to a crime boss from people like michael cohen, from people that have observed him and the way he talks, even the way that he operates, as unnecessarily write things down, gives these orders, takes a step back, other people fall for him. what does it mean for someone like trump who has spent his entire business and political career behaving, speaking like a mob stir mobster to be essentially called day mobster in a court of law? >> -- dare i even say so, satisfying. because we see trump indicted obviously three times before this, but to have trump and his operation, forthrightly referred to as a criminal enterprise, which he's always run his political career as a political enterprise. he ran the white house in many ways as a criminal enterprise. but there is something of affirming after having watched this kind of avalanche of lies and corruption and scandal and 's kind of an anti authoritarianism. to have somebody call it what it is has been such a relief. and i think for trump, even these -- put aside the very real possibility that he could spend the rest of his life in prison, and adjust the fact that he is going to have to sit there every day, in one courtroom after another, somebody who's never been able to sit still, somebody who kind of can't -- has no attention span, who has never been able to be undistracted for any length of time. day after day he is going to have to sit there on television probably, in the case of georgia, listening to the evidence against him. it's as if he had to sit through the january 6th hearings. and i think it's so important that the january 6th hearings, we saw the effect not just -- david spoke about a jury. but in terms of the populace. we saw the effect that the january 6th hearings had on the american population. and now we have an opportunity to recapitulate that, for people to remember just what he put this country through. >> that's such an important point as well, because he plays so much to the public audience. not specifically to the courtroom. so, it will be important that is counter waited by the fact that the american people will be able to see directly for themselves the case made against donald trump. david, let me ask you, just from a legal strategy here, in the doj's election interference case, trump is the only one facing charges in georgia. that is not the case. and because he cannot pardon -- if he's elected or if i republican president is elected in the next cycle -- they cannot pardon any of these folks you get convicted, if they do get convicted. could the stiff penalties associated with rico incentivize these defendants to cooperate in this case, unlike perhaps in another case? perhaps like in the documents case, where you have walt nauta and others that are codefendants? >> absolutely. and this builds on michelle goldberg's point. -- that a federal prosecution wouldn't, not the least of which is, not only are you looking at time, but you're looking at time in the state pen. that tends to make people have an awareness about when it's good to flip, about other kinds of car serration. don't but i think that picture actually gets complex if you think about it, because so far none of these trials have gone to trial very quickly, and they take an incredibly long time to try. the case against the teachers with the test score set a record in georgia, it lasted for eight months. so the real issue is not simply whether or not former president trump is reelected, whether he can pardon himself, but can also make the argument that look, i can't be tried up in a trial that is going to last up to a year, which is more realistic, while i'm running for president. and i hate to say it, but i think he has a chance of succeeding with that argument. the flipside is, he is running for president, to raise money to pay his lawyers. if he is not reelected, i don't know how he can continue to pay these legal bills for any period of time, considering this case and all the legal battle he's fighting, because however that bill is now, it's going to be eclipsed once we actually start getting to trial. because lawyers cost a whole lot more when you are in court. >> yeah, the gift continues. greg bluestein, i mask, you follow georgia politics a lot more than i do. but everyone has been following georgia politics for the last couple of years. you have some new reporting on how brian kemp, the governor down there, and other top republican officials -- they are basically brushing off calls from trump supporters to overhaul the states pardon rules in light of this indictment. i think most americans would find that to be egregious just by looking at, it changing the rules just for trump. but what are the ex presidents supporters asking for? and how is the governor responding? >> yeah, there is such a high bar in georgia to issue a pardon. first of all, as you mentioned earlier, the governor's governor doesn't even have the direct power to appoint a board of pardons and false, and then to be eligible you have to serve your complete sentence and then wait five years and be in good standing. so, that means that even if there was some sort of power to pardon trump here in georgia, you have to serve the sentence and wait five. you're so, there's already calls to review and revamp those pardons legislation. first of all, it would take a constitutional amendment to do significant changes to pardons. and the governor and key state lawmakers have said they have absolutely no appetite for this. there is also a separate call through a special legislative session to review district attorney fani willis and potentially try to sanction her or even asked her from office and, again, key republican leaders in the georgia legislature in georgia government say they have absolutely no appetite for that either. in fact, there was a state senator who made that, call to sign a petition and, as of right now, there is only one line maker on the petition. that is it. >> michelle goldberg, i have to ask you, we were supposed to hear from trump on monday at that planned press conference, where he promised to produce irrefutable evidence that the 2020 election was stolen. him and mike lindell seemed to be the only two people in this country still pursuing that. the ex president has now canceled those public remarks and the release of the so-called report. why do you think he's finally taking the advice of his lawyers, and how long do you think this behavior could last? >> well, look. i think we saw one of his former lawyers on television saying that he is going to give the prosecutors more evidence, with this is going to be another overt act, when he shows up for this press conference. and so, look. i don't think we could say how long he's going to take his lawyers advice, because he is such an impulsive figure. he is going to be on debate stages, it's really going to be able to refrain from either intimidating or suggesting that mike pence, a probable witness against him, not testify? is he really going to be able to go however many months without breaking a law or at least rubbing right up against the edge of it? he's never done that in the past. but i think the fact that he canceled his press conference, a, is a sign that there was nothing there to begin with, which was obvious, but also that he has at least momentary grasp of the seriousness of the charges against him. >> all right, michelle goldberg, greg bluestein, david henderson, thank you to the three of you for starting us off tonight. greatly appreciate your time and your insights as always. ahead, we're going to continue the conversation with an important -- plea. keep donald trump's georgia case out of federal court. one of the men making that plea, former deputy u.s. attorney general donald ayer. he joins me live next to make his case. ♪tell me why♪ because it stinks. ♪have you tried downy rinse and refresh♪ it helps remove odors 3x better than detergent alone. it worked guys! ♪yeahhhh♪ downy rinse and refresh. ♪ ♪ ♪♪ voltaren. the joy of movement. ♪♪ i have moderate to severe crohn's disease. now, there's skyrizi. the joy of movement. ♪ things are looking up ♪ ♪ i've got symptom 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hire. i need indeed. indeed you do. when you sponsor a job, you immediately get your shortlist of quality candidates, whose resumes on indeed match your job criteria. visit indeed.com/hire and get started today. >> this week, fani willis said goli, taste your goals. whose resumes on indeed match your job criteria. all 19 defendants charged with racketeering in georgia have until friday, august 25th, to appear voluntarily in court in fulton county rather than face arrest. one of those defendants, mark meadows, is already asking the court to move his case to federal court. lawyers for meadows said the case should be in federal court because, quote, the conduct giving rise to the charges in the indictment all occurred during his tenure and as part of his service as chief of staff to donald trump. right after that, rudy giuliani said he would follow suit, arguing the case is qualified for an automatic removal to federal court and, again, it is expected that trump himself filed a similar request. my next guest, though, says, the case must remain in fulton county, georgia. donald ayer, deputy attorney general under george h. w. bush and the u.s. attorney under president ronald reagan has coauthored a new piece for the atlantic arguing that taking this case to federal court, quote, wood -- on george's right and obligation to defend its own laws and choose its own presidential electors. donald ayer joins me now. mr. ayer, it's great to have you on the show. -- why is it important for this case to remain in georgia? and what is the probability that it stays in georgia? thanks for having me, ayman. >> i think you have to understand what the purpose of the removal statute is, which has been on the books for over wild in hundred years. the purpose of it is to protect the conduct -- the important conduct of federal officials, in the performance of their jobs. so, the statute has been interpreted and clearly applied multiple times, as-limited by two sets of circumstances. first of all, the actions that are charged must, in fact, be taken in the course of performing your job. it is not enough that someone is, in fact, as mark meadows is, a federal official. the conduct actually has to be in the course of in what they call under color of law, and in doing one's job. but the second requirement, which also has to be satisfied, is that the defendant must be alleging with a call on the statute colorable federal defenses, which is to say they actually have to be raising issues of federal law. now, there is very good reasons, in this case, to believe that neither of those situations is met, either for mark meadows or for rudy giuliani, or, indeed, for donald trump. >> there is, and correct me if i'm wrong -- trump tried earlier this year to get his hush money payment case removed out of new york to a federal venue, which was rejected. and trump argued at the time, i believe, that the case belongs in federal court. the judge in that case said trump failed to show that he has a colorable federal defense to the indictment. do you anticipate a similar defense here? does what happened in manhattan with that decision apply to the georgia case? >> i think the same principles apply, but i think obviously this is a very, very different situation. the claim in that case was really quite laughable. the idea that the president in paying hush money was somehow, in the course of doing his job, and had some federal defense to it. it's really kind of a silly claim. here, it's also not at all a meritoriously claim. but you would at least need to talk about it. so, the first question here, is whether the president has any role to play with regard to overseeing the functioning of state electoral systems. the bottom answer is that he does not, and certainly he doesn't have a role to play in overseeing the presidential election, and obviously not in doing the things that are specific alleged. so with regard to that first requirement, that this is under color of law, that it's actually the president or mark meadows in the course of doing their job, something that they are obligated to do as a federal official. they failed. now with regard to the second requirement, you've got to have both in order to remove, there must be a plausible federal defense. now what could that possibly be? what federal law defense that -- the theory would be that you want the federal court to be deciding this federal law defense, because the sort of background purpose of the statute was the worry that states might somehow interfere with the performance of federal functions. well, the one argument the president has made over and over again in a general way, and has always been rejected, is basically a sweeping claim of immunity. he was the president, therefore nobody could prosecute him for anything, for anything he did while he was president. but again, the conduct that is at issue here isn't conduct that there's any plausible defense too. now, another thing he said lately is that because he has a first amendment argument that he's making. and that's been roundly rejected and really, i think, laughed at by a lot of people. because the line, in fact the indictment jack smith submitted and filed, was one that clearly said, you have a right to say anything you want. but you don't have a right by your words or buy anything else to commit actual crimes. and that's a very, very clear live. line. so the argument that there is going to be a first amendment defense to the specific conduct that's been alleged here, i think, is again not one that's serious and not one that will provide a basis for removal. now, what's important to know is that when the supreme court has interpreted this statute, it's recognized sort of two sides of the coin. on the one hand, the statute really does exist to protect federal officials who in performing their jobs, end up doing something that causes some harm and ends up having them be prosecuted by the state. so it clearly is an important statute in the right case. but the supreme court has also said repeatedly that there is a strong judicial policy against interfering with state criminal proceedings. and that's why they have recognized and they've drawn these lines with regard to these defenses, the need for a federal defense and also the fact that you've got to be performing your job. it's not going to be persuasive to simply come in and say, i was president, and i shouldn't have to be accountable to the state of georgia for interfering with and trying to overturn what are in that case george's processes for handling the election. so i think courts are going to be very sensitive to that important -- respect for the state course. courts. >>, i was gonna say, it reminds me of that famous nixon line, when the president does it, it's not a crime. and i think a lot of donald trump's arguments are what he's doing, it's not wrong, it's not a crime because he thinks he was the president, and therefore above the law. former deputy u.s. attorney general donald ayer, always a pleasure, sir. -- hopefully we will have you back on for more conversations like this. next, the timeline of events over just three short months that brought donald trump to his fourth indictment. we're going to break it down for you. 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[dog bark] what? my back feels better. before advil... new advil dual action back pain fights back pain two ways. for 8 hours of relief. why do dermatologists choose dove? the dove beauty bar, is gentle. it not only cleans, it hydrates my skin. as a dermatologist, i want what's best for our skin. with 1/4 moisturizing cream, dove is the #1 bar dermatologists use at home. -we're done. -what about these? looks right. >> fani willis's criminal nooo... nooo... quick, the quicker picker upper! bounty absorbs spills like a sponge. and is 2x more absorbent so you can use less. bounty, the quicker picker upper. indictment against donald trump and 18 others is the culmination of an investigation that has been going on for more than two and a half years. it is the most wide-ranging indictment today and, despite how much was carried out in the public eye or, has been since reported on, there is an incredible amount of information in the indictment itself that shows just how public actions -- even more behind the scenes scheming. and to understand and fully appreciate this moment and this indictment, we have to go back to the very start, just after election day 2020. on november 4th, one day after votes are cast, as it becomes clear that donald trump might lose the election, he delivers a speech hinting at a constitutional crisis. and the indictment says, the speech was an overt act in furtherance of the conspiracy. days after, on november 11th, president biden is declared the president-elect. georgia secretary of state brad raffensperger announces a statewide hand audit of the presidential results because of the razor-thin margin. and he says, there is no evidence of widespread voter fraud. on november 13th, media outlets project that president biden has won the state of georgia and, two days later, on november 15th, rudy giuliani, one of trump's election attorneys and closest advisers, leaves an 83 second voice mail for an unindicted coconspirator, making what the indictment says are false statements about election fraud in fulton county. on november 19th, election officials complete their statewide handle audit, confirming biden's biden's victory again, and a federal judge dismisses a trump backed lawsuit seeking to block the certification of georgia's election results. that same day, giuliani and two other lawyers charged indicates jenna alice and sidney powell, they made false statements about voter fraud in georgia and other states during a televised press conference. on november 20th, brad raffensperger certifies biden as the winner. david schaffer, the former chair of the republican georgia republican party, who is also indicted, sends an email -- that very same day -- seeking assistance for scott graham hall, an atlanta area bail bondsmen who is looking into election fraud on behalf of donald trump. luis alleges this guy, schaffer, like the others, knew there was no such fraud. and over 25th, sydney powell files a lawsuit in georgia alleging a massive anti trump conspiracy involving rigged voting machines. and then you've got to fast forward to december 3rd. attorneys for trump make the first of three appearances before state lawmakers making what prosecutors say are false claims about election fraud in an effort to persuade them to reject the states duly elected qualified presidential electors that were going to joe biden. on december 5th, trump calls georgia governor brian kemp, and urges him to order a special legislative session to overturn biden's victory. georgia's governor, brian kemp, rejects that. on december 6th, trump calls individual legislators hoping to, quote, find elected georgians willing to step across a constitutional line on his behalf. and then, on december 7th, brad raffensperger recertify's biden's win following a recount requested by trump's campaign. the final tally shows that biden won by 11,779 votes. and that's an important number to remember. because the very next day, on the eight, trump and others call rnc chair ronna mcdaniel to seek the organizations help to coordinate the alleged fake electors scheme. they would end up involving pro trump electors in georgia as well as six other states. they are arizona, michigan, nevada, new mexico, pennsylvania and wisconsin and then, on december 11th, the supreme court rejects the trump backed lawsuit seeking to invalidate millions of ballots in georgia. on december 14th, members of the electoral college, they meet. and they actually award georgia's 16 electoral votes to joe biden. at the same time, a group of 16 trump supporters -- well, they are meeting at the georgia state capital. and they are signing fake certificates falsely proclaiming that donald trump the winner of georgia's electoral votes. and that's not the case. those fake certificates are sent to the national archives, and thankfully, they aref geor eventually rejected. december 23rd, trump calls francis watson. she's the chief investigator for the georgia secretary of state's office, and he tells watson that she would find dishonesty if she scrutinizes absentee ballots in fulton county. and then on january 2nd, obviously not pleased with his call to watson, trump makes that now infamous phone call to brad raffensperger, pressuring him to quote, find 11,780 votes. that is one more vote than he needs to overcome biden's margin of victory. january 3rd and fourth are incredibly consequential days here, on the third, harrison floyd, director of black voices for trump, calls and texts rudy freeman, who was the fulton county elections worker and, floyd also calls trevian kutti. a publicist who has worked for kanye west. the next day kutti. and floyd pressure ruby freeman to lie. members of the enterprise travel from out of state to harass freeman. they intimidate her to falsely confessed to election crimes that he did not commit, all of this according to the indictment and then ruby freeman later testified to the january 6th committee about the amount of harassment that she had to experience and endure. now, all of that is going on, also on january the 3rd, u. s. attorney -- byung pak -- learns of -- investigators that it was clear trump was ignoring doj reports, on the lack of election fraud. trump uses about firing at an oval office meeting, the same day calling him a never trumper. and on january 4th, byung pak resigns. and then there is of course january 6th. trump mentions georgia 20 times at that infamous rally near the white house. he cites conspiracies about alleged irregularities, and says election officials should find those votes needed to overturn biden's victory. an angry mob then storms the capitol, and as we know, despite the attack, joe biden's 2020 victory is eventually certified by congress. but six of georgia's eight house republicans, well, they vote to invalidate election results in other states. and the next day, kathy latham, republican party chair in rural coffee county georgia, brings the bill bondsman, scott graham hall, to the county elections office to breach election equipment. latham, hall, sydney powell and misty hampton, the counties elections director, they agreed to copy software and data from the equipment, according to prosecutors. over several more days, unindicted coconspirators download that data, and then just one month later, february 10th, fani willis launches a criminal investigation into these efforts by trump and his allies to overturn georgia's presidential election results. and this timeline is far from over. as we mentioned, it is been two and a half years into an investigation that still ongoing. and the very next day to look forward to, august 25th, that is the date by which fani willis wants the defendants to voluntarily surrender. we'll see where it goes from there. up next, the people in montana sue the state over climate change, and they won. the ruling, the first of its kind. it's now reverberating worldwide. when you smell the amazing scent of gain flings... 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shingrix protects. shingrix is now zero dollars for almost everyone. ask your doctor about shingrix today. these suits are here to make sure that anything i say is legally indisputable. like... we got more spaces than space! that's entirely incalculable. oh, i think that's legalese for... for true! apartments.com the place to find a place. >> let's go back to the breaking news that we have been following throughout the day and night for you. senior california officials are telling residents it is not too late to prepare for hurricane hillary, which is just been downgraded to a category two storm. locals are being urged to sign up for alerts, have a go bag ready in case evacuations are required, and to stay in touch with family and friends. the tropical storm has made landfall in southern california since 1939, you get a sense of how significant this moment is. this summer has quickly showed us the brutal reality of climate change, and as we see the impact of climate change in real time, kids in this country, who will live through much more of the climate crisis then we will, well, they are not taking it lying down. back in march of 2020, 16 young people of montana came together and sued the governor, free state agencies, and the public service commission. they argue that montana's pro fossil fuels laws infringed on their constitutional right to a clean and healthy full environment. and this week, believe it or not, they actually won their case. we -- versus montana is the first climate case to ever go to trial the united states, and the first to link climate change to a constitutional right. the state attorney generals office is planning to file an appeal, but as it stands now, montana, the state that gets one third of its energy by burning coal, must consider climate change when approving or renewing fossil fuel projects. joining me now, not julia olson, chief legal counsel at our children's trust. that is the law firm representing the montana youth. this was a remarkable case, i was just fascinated by the story and the legal basis on which this case and this argument was built. first, let me just get your reaction to this historic win. i know you've been working on this case for years, it actually dates back to 2011 when your law firm petitioned i believe the montana supreme court to rule that the state has a duty to address climate change. what does it feel like to have seen a victory that set a precedent for such an urgent cause? >> thanks for having me on, ayman, it's been an amazing week. we've been working for 13 years to secure a ruling like this. we have brought about 20 plus cases, and this is the first one to actually go to trial, to be able to present expert testimony to have the youth plane to take the stand, and ultimately to get a really incredible ruling from judge seely in montana. >> are you at all worried about the state's promise to appeal this case? i mean, this would then ultimately send it to the state supreme court, and what confidence do you have that legislators in a deep red montana will abide by the judges ruling? you've got presidential candidates who are running on the platform of denying climate change, basically. it's hard to imagine that the republican party, which is the dominant party in montana, is willing to accept that climate change is real, based on this ruling. >> it's a really important reason why children and youth need to be heard by courts. because, when you are in a court of law, politics are not at play. and there is a really strong -- right in the montana constitution to clean and healthful environment. it also protects children's right to dignity, health, safety, and equal protection of the law. and the lower court, who heard all of the evidence over several days, she found an 100 plus-page opinion with the evidence supported finding that those fundamental rights are harmed when our climate system is being so integrated by fossil fuel pollution. and so, we're really optimistic, going up to the montana supreme court, that when they apply the constitution in this case, and look at the facts that were found in the lower court, this these youth will prevail. >> you brought up a very important point about the judge 's ruling and how it declared that montana had violated several of its constituents constitutional rights, including equal protection, dignity, i believe liberty, health, and safety. talk to me a little bit about how all of this could be used as a blueprint for other states. how do you see this case reverberating across the country, based on the legal arguments that you successfully made? >> i think judge seely's opinion, and ultimately hopefully an opinion by the montana supreme court, will be very persuasive to judges in other jurisdictions. we have active cases pending in states like hawaii, utah, virginia, we have a federal case pending in julianna versus united states, and judges, they look to each other on these issues of life and liberty and the really dangerous climate situation we're in right now. we have a trial date set and our -- state of hawaii case for june of next year. we are beginning to prepare for that, and what's key, ayman, he's getting these cases to trial. because when the evidence is presented, it's overwhelming. i mean, the state of montana, they couldn't put forward any evidence to contradict the overwhelming science that was presented in the case. and it's why governments are fighting so hard to keep us out of court, including the biden administration and the department of justice. >> can you talk a bit more about that, and why they want to keep you out of court? i think for all of us who follow this closely and are very nervous and anxious about the future of our planet on one hand we want more allies and we need to have more allies in this fight -- but as i mentioned, you are also seeing politicians standing in that way who, some running for office on the basis of denying climate change and wanting to legislation be passed in -- more fossil fuels use, not less. >> yeah, and it is why we need courts looking at constitutional rights in this context, because if a court says that continuing to permit promote fossil fuels is unconstitutional because it's destroying the climate system on which life depends, then no legislature can continue to do that. that would be declared unconstitutional. and what we're doing is really similar to what the young students were doing in the cases that led up to brown versus board of education. finding that segregation was unconstitutional. we're now at a point in time where our courts need to say that fossil fuel energy is unconstitutional, and we need to wean ourselves off of that. and you can see the importance of constitutional rights, i think when the dobbs decision came down and overruled roe v. wade, everyone could see how overnight our country changes. because it put the question of abortion back in the hands of politicians and legislatures. and we need climate protection and fossil fuels, and those decisions to be taken out of the hands of politicians, so that we can actually protect the planet for our children and future generations. >> very important point, and very important comparison. some of the other pressing issues of our time. julia olson, thank you so, much i really pray shaded and best of luck to you going forward and all your other important cases. thank you. >> thank you so much for having me. >> next, an important update on access to a widely used abortion medication. we are going to tell you about that. bout that more shopping? you should watch your spending honey. i'm saving with liberty mutual, mom. they customize your car insurance so you only pay for what you need. check it out, you could save $700 dollars just by switching. ooooh, i'll look into that. let me put a reminder on my phone. save $700 dollars. pick up dad from airport? ohhhhhh. only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. 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original fda approval of mifepristone in place, but their decision reverses recent regulatory changes that made that drug more widely available. and would now require patients to make three visits to a doctor to get their prescription. it would also ban mail delivery, and it would roll back eligibility from ten weeks of pregnancy to seven weeks and a justice department spokesperson says they will file an appeal. but it's important to note that this week's decision does not immediately hinder access to the abortion pill. the supreme court this year issued a statewide law case goes through the appeals process, and that will continue to apply until the court takes up the case, either this year or, perhaps, in 2025. stick around. we've got the second hour of "ayman" beginning right after quick break. quick break. neighbors' nfl sunday ticket. 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