and you are watching velshi on msnbc. i am charles coleman jr. filling in for my friend ali velshi. like so many different places across the country, july saw record breaking temperatures in the state of georgia. well, for donald trump, the last two weeks, it's about to get hot as fish grease. and with that, we begin this morning with the latest details out of fulton county, georgia, where a possible fourth criminal indictment of the former president could be filed in a matter of days. the state's former lieutenant governor geoff duncan confirmed just yesterday that he received a notice to appear before a grand jury on tuesday. additionally, independent journalist george chilly also said he received a call from the office of fulton county district attorney fani willis that also asked him to come in on tuesday to give his testimony. these are the clearest signs yet that willis will present her case to the grand jury in the coming weeks in pursuit of criminal indictments in the states election interference case. security measures and law enforcement for essence noticeably increased in and around the fulton county courthouse in recent days as well. all of this is fueling further speculation that an indictment is imminent. willis has previously said that any charting decisions regarding this matter would be announced before september 1st which is just about two weeks away. also, this morning, cnn is reporting that georgia prosecutors have evidence that the former president's's legal team was directly involved with a voting system breach shortly after the 2020 election. i said it again. hot as fish grease. according to these cnn sources, prosecutors have emails and text messages that directly linked trump's team to the attempt by local allies to access voting systems in coffee, georgia early january 2021. abc news has not yet independently verified this information nor have we seen the messages cited in this report. meanwhile, donald trump spent his saturday doing what any other person who is facing a potential indictment will be doing and the iowa state fair. when he was asked whether he defends the actions of his allies in georgia he did his best to deflect. >> in georgia, do you defend the actions of your allies following the 2020 election in georgia? >> which allies, i don't know. i should be honest with you, i have so many allies. i don't exactly know what you're talking about. i'll tell you this. these people want to see democracy. they want to see a nation be great again. right now, our nation is going down to hell. so we have a lot of allies that don't know. we have a lot of allies that don't know, but nevertheless -- i can't speak to that. nobody can answer that question. >> here is something i want to break down very quickly. of all the cases that donald trump is currently facing, this is the one that he probably should be most concerned about. and i will explain why. now, donald trump has a lot going on, so this may take a second. but if you are looking at carole or letitia james in new york, those are both civil cases. he's not going to lose his freedom of reality because of it. he may face financial penalties, but that's about it. alvin bragg in new york, it is a felony but it is a local case and not something that is likely to face jail time for even if convicted. as far as the two federal indictments bought by jack smith, donald trump has a very novel path where he could potentially become the president or solicit help from any of the republican hopefuls in such a way that he ultimately pardons himself or select an a.g. who was willing to pardon him and dismissed the case. but with fani willis, he can't do any of that. with her bringing and indictment and with her indicating that it's going to be a legal case, basically, what that tells us is that there are going to be a slew of other defendants who like donald trump, have never been in this position before. and what's likely to happen, it's going to open the door to a last man standing, royal rumble of everyone throwing everyone else under the bus. more importantly, there's no pardon that he can do with respect to the charges in georgia. and that's why his next two weeks are so important. let's break this all down with someone who knows everything about trump world. joining me now is hugo lowell, political investigations reporter for the guardian. it's so good to see you, my friend. good morning. your latest reporting, hugo, is about how some of trump's allies and georgia could potentially be indicted along with him. i was just talking about that with respect to it being a legal case. what can you tell us about who these people are, and the roles they played with respect to the election interference scheme? >> so, the case in georgia is again a particularly expansive based on everyone we spoke to adjacent to the fulton county d.a.'s office. by the sounds of it, there's gonna be a case in rico. but there's gonna be a bunch of stand-alone crimes. the difference in georgia, some of the stand-alone crimes led can be indicted separately, they are also what we call qualifying crimes under the rico act, then that can be forwarded into a racketeering case as well. what we are trying to see is one of the biggest qualifying crimes that exist in georgia, continue to trespass, could be one of the crimes that voted trump and is love alice can be hit with. and some of the allies include people in the local republican party, people who are connected to the coffee county elections office, who are involved in this breach, as you were saying, in january 2021, when they go in trying to find supposed evidence of election fraud, but in doing so, copy vast and mounds of data, basically illegally accessed the dominion voting systems network in coffee county that use statewide in georgia, and then upload it into website where election deniers can access it. >> i just want to be clear, this is why the notion of a rico charges so important because donald trump, if it's being bought under rico, it doesn't actually have to touch a computer to be indicted. and that's the beauty of what it does as a law enforcement, and how fani willis will use it. you go, tell me your thoughts about the comment we just played of trump, where it seems like he is distancing himself from his allies in georgia, very quickly, hugo. >> look, he's gonna try to distance himself, and he has to. it's part of his defense. and as you write and you point out, the way that racketeering case, prosecutors have to show an enterprise of racketeering activity. you have to show a criminal enterprise web where there is a common goal that everyone is working to. all the defendants don't necessarily have to interact with each other. but the final goal here that prosecutors are trying to show is that trump tried to gain an unlawful benefit. they were trying to show that he was trying to overturn the election. and there were allies and groups working together in concert trying to get to that end result. and that is gonna be, expect to be trump tried to distance himself from more of those people in the coming days and weeks. >> hugo lowell, thank you as always, my friend. with me now is melissa murray, she is a professor of law at nyu, and host of the podcast trick scrutiny. and joining us also as u.s. attorney carole lamb, both of whom are msnbc legal analysts. so good to have you with me today. melissa, i want to start with you. it's been reported that fani willis is looking to charge donald trump under the rico statute. we've been talking about that this morning. if that happens, what do you think, basically, is going to be the difference between the election interference case in georgia and what we are seeing at the federal level with jack smith and the special prosecutor? >> charles, there will likely be charges that stem from the same locus of events, obviously what happened on january 6th obviously has repercussions for what happened in georgia and the lead up to that. but they're obviously very different. and what will happen likely in the state level rico charges will be there will be more people identified, people who maybe outside of the millions that have already been identified in jackson it's indictment. this has a potential to open this wide up, introduced a whole new cast of characters from georgia that will also perhaps have some overlap what the federal case as well. again, as hugo said earlier, this is a very important case because it's at the state level. these are georgia laws that are being prosecuted here, not federal laws. and that means if he is actually convicted under these charges, these are charges that cannot be pardoned by the president, the only person who can grant clemency would be the governor of georgia himself. and obviously doing that would have severe political consequences for brian kemp if he were to do that at this point. >> very interesting. and i do appreciate that breakdown because a lot of people have been wondering, why bring them in separate jurisdictions, your breakdown clearly explains that. carol i want to turn to you. let's turn back for a moment. this entire investigation started after a recording, it was a recording of trump's phone call with the secretary of state in georgia. how important is that piece of evidence going to be? and how much exposure does it give to donald trump here? >> charles, it's very important evidence because in all of the evidence that we've seen, this is actually a taped recording of donald trump's voice, where it's very clear it's a telephone recording and they are very clear. and the former president is saying finally the votes. so, when you have tape recorded evidence like that of the defendant actually talking, it's obviously very persuasive. now, there would be all sorts of defenses, he was sure that those votes were out there, and he was just asking people to find them because he knew they ere.we again, a jury is likely to find that kind of evidence much more persuasive. i will also add that with respect to the difference between jack smith's indictment and fani willis's anticipated indictment, one important fact is when you charge rico in georgia, it's a five year minimum mandatory sentence if you are convicted. and even putting aside how complicated that would be in donald trump's case, it does put a lot of pressure on those who are also looked at as coconspirators in that case to flip and cooperate with the government because it is a minimum sentence that is required. >> that is that royal rumble i'm talking about, i suspect it's going to turn into every man for himself. melissa, trump is still on truth social, and he is still attacking fulton county district attorney fani willis. in his newest post, he called her a racist, surprise, surprise -- and he alleges she's a phony. and he also has made illusions that, to the notion she tweeted gang members with kid gloves. he also made false assertions about important relationships with her client, one of them was a gang member. all of this, what do you think is going to play to his base and his supporters? >> it's worth noting that the former president has been especially vocal about anyone who's been involved in prosecuting him. so, jack smith has certainly gotten some of this. you are right. this is incredibly the trial like, it seems to be especially pronounced when it's directed at d.a. fani willis. and perhaps it's unsurprising. she's an african american woman in a position that traditionally has been occupied by men. and she's prosecuting him. again, this may play to his base particularly, especially those who are perhaps nerve or unsettled by the prospect of a woman of color being in positions of authority. but again, this is part of the course. it is pronounced in the case of this particular black woman. >> but, melissa, why is it that when it comes to jack smith, he is just deranged. but when it comes to alvin bragg, when it comes to laetitia james, when it comes to fani willis, they are not qualified. like, there is a very different type of criticisms, criticism that we see donald trump wage against certain people even though they're both prosecuting him. >> i think you are answering your own question, charles. it doesn't really take a detective to figure out what unites all of those individuals nor what unites this particular base. i mean, this is a base that very much is undergirded by strain of racial a grievance that this particular former president has been able to tap into very effectively. again, it is worth noting here that all of the individuals that you have named, alvin bragg, laetitia james, fani willis, they're incredibly qualified, whether donald trump or his case was to admit that. and, again all the charges that have been brought, both under the criminal law and those that proceed under civil laws have been incredibly well founded. so these are not situations or circumstances where individuals are proceeding lightly. they are weighing this carefully, knowing that they will have the full blast of public scrutiny on them from donald trump and his supporters. >> carol, you've been on the bench. you are a former judge. donald trump has already been warned, special counsel election interference case, that he should be careful about what he says. and possible witnesses. what kind of consequences, tell us, could he face if he just continues to blow off the warnings from the george and keep this type of behavior. >> donald trump is not used to this. he's not used to having a figure of authority tell him he can't say things. and he is having some difficulty with that. this is a power struggle. it's a battle for control of the courtrooms. and donald trump is not going to win that battle. if you are a judge, your kingdom is the courtroom. and it is your responsibility to keep control over that courtroom and over the proceedings leading up to the trial and during the trial. it is your responsibility to protect the parties, the jurors, the court staff as well. so, what is going to happen here is if donald trump continues in his march of saying things that could potentially endanger court staff or jurors or witnesses, it's just going to keep ratcheting up until ultimately penalties are imposed. now, what can those pay? they can be financial penalties, and they can be large financial penalties. they can be custody, and it doesn't necessarily have to be custody until the trial, it can be custody to essentially serve a sentence if the judge finds the former president in contempt. it can be one day, two days, five days, a week. and what i think is very interesting here is that judge chutkan in manhattan has actually but the attorneys themselves, his defense attorneys on the hot seat a bit. she said i putting responsibility on you. i want you to look over his notes after he refuse discovery from the government to make sure he is not writing down identifiable information about witnesses. if he ends up doing things that are potentially going to endanger witnesses, or down the road jurors, judge chutkan is going to hold his attorneys responsible to an extent. so they're in a bit of a hot seat and they're gonna have to exercise some client control here. >> melissa murray and carol lam, always get smarter by talking to you both. thank you so much. we are just getting started. stay right there. on the other side of the break, joe manchin versus the democrats. how a potential third party run by the west virginia senator could put donald trump back in the white house. plus, new calls for an ethics investigation into clarence thomas following a brand-new reporting on lavish gifts. and then, we will head to hawaii, where at least 93 people are now confirmed dead in what is now the deadliest wildfire in modern american history. a live report from maui is next on velshi. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ but then i found quviviq, an fda-approved medication for adults with insomnia. and i'm glad i found it. you wouldn't believe some of the things people suggested to help me sleep. nature sounds? 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senator joe manchin proudly standing by at the signing of the landmark inflation reduction act, with his buddy, president biden. this year, manchin will be a no-show at the anniversary celebration. it might have something to do with the senator's 2024 aspirations. we will talk about that and much more on the other side of this break. this is velshi on msnbc. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ i'm a veteran of 23 years. i served three overseas tours. i love to give back to the community. i offer what i can when i can. i started noticing my memory was slipping. i saw a prevagen commercial and i did some research on it. i started taking prevagen about three years ago. i feel clearer in my thoughts, my memory has improved and generally just more on point. prevagen. at stores everywhere without a prescription. subway refreshed everything. and now, they're slicing their meats fresh. that's why this pro proffers the new grand slam ham. so does this pro. i just love a grand slam... ham. and if we proffer it, we know you'll proffer it too. i knew he'd love that sandwich. frustrated by skin tags? 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he does want to openly discuss leaving the democratic party. he does want to talk about hanging out with a third party group, no labels. and he does generally want to flirt with the idea of now running as a potential spoiler candidate for president, no surprise there. i am joined now by a lot of people who have a lot of thoughts about this. and i'm looking forward to a great conversation. rick wilson as a former republican strategist, the cofounder of the project, and host of enemies list podcast. as well as the author of the book running against the devil, a plot to save america from trump and democrats themselves. also here with me is former republican congressman joe walsh of illinois. he ran for president against donald trump in 2020 and is host of the podcast while flag with joe walsh, and also author of the book, of silence, calling trump out for the cultish, moronic, authoritarian con man that he is. gentlemen, good morning. thank you so much for joining me. joe, i want to start with you because i know you have a lot of thoughts, a lot to say about those labels, a lot to say about joe manchin and third party candidates. now that we are hearing this news from joe manchin about potentially stepping into 2024, under a no labels banner, what are your thoughts? >> my thoughts, charles, and it's good to be with you, and it's always good to be with rick, that joe manchin like so many others, utterly selfish at this moment in time. joe manchin has decided to place his own personal ambition above what is best for the country. let's be clear, donald trump is an existential threat to our democracy. he can never ever, ever be in the white house again. the way to stop that, the only way to stop that is for all of us who believe in democracy to support the democratic nominee, which is joe biden. charles, i'm not a democrat. i'm a conservative. but i care about our democracy so i am supporting joe biden whoever the democratic nominee is. manchin is not alone. he is placing his own ambition ahead of its what's best for the country. >> he always has. i want to follow up really quickly on that point, joe. for your republican colleagues, the ones who are also conservative, but also support trump, what do you say to them, when they are still on the trump bandwagon, and refuse to get off, even at the cost of what could be our democracy? >> look, any republican, and rick knows this, any republican or conservative who's not all the way they're on trump, if they care about our democracy, they have to support the democratic nominee. i mean, i'm in the trenches every day, charles, trying to convince people in the maga world to fight for our democracy. that's a tough left. but when you take all the rest of us, conservatives, independents, democrats, and progressives, if we all come together at this moment in time, we can stop trump. >> rick, you were one of the first people who came out in the never trump republican party group. do you think that joe manchin is ever going to be the one to appeal to never trumpers and be able to capture that section of the rhetoric that wants to stay conservative but potentially doesn't want to vote democrat, let's not fool with joe biden. but, you know, looking for somewhere to go. could this be their answer? >> the problem here, charles, is that no labels is very carefully crafted. as my friend joe said, the convincing maga voters is the hardest thing in the will. but no labels has crafted a plan backed by $70 million of republican donor money including harlan crow who is clarence thomas's sponsor. they built a plan that is designed to do one thing, that is to throw of conservative democrats to a guy like joe manchin, so that joe biden loses in key elections states, and the guarantee that trump will be president again. every time nancy jacobs, the head of no labels, and the strategist of no labels are confronted with us, they absolutely lie about it. they say, oh, no, it's not what's going to happen. even though their own publicly released polling says that trump would be the one who gains advantage in the electoral college based on their third parties can. and that's what this is. and joe manchin, whether it's ego, audacity, or some other combination of character flaws, as joe said, this is a guy who put money and ego well ahead of the country because the absolute end result of the no labels third party candidate, especially given the stakes, getting on the ballot and, which is a strategic decision on their part, they're going to hurt biden and help trump. >> joe, you ran against trump when he was the sitting incumbent president. he's out of office now. he has led republicans during the midterms and everywhere else, through loss after loss after loss, for at least under performances in the past, three different elections, now, he's under a bunch of different indictments. we may see something out of georgia. he's got to at the federal level and counting. and there is still what's going on here in new york. why is it that none of the republicans who are currently running against him are making any traction? >> because it's trump's party. look, this was always an impossible road for these guys. you cannot -- there is no lane in the republican party to be anti trump. chris christie, will hurd, these guys going after trump, they can't win. the only lane is the trump lane. all of these other candidates have to help trump, and just hope and wait that he can't win. but this is trump's party. it is trump's nomination. i think it's a foregone conclusion. i think it's always been his nomination as long as he is in it. >> rick, i want to talk for a second about no labels. one reason that the lincoln project has been very critical is that they haven't really disclosed who is fronting them. we don't know where this money is coming from. but beyond that, like, tell me what the specific concern about funding them -- are we thinking about the scooby-doo cartoon where you pull off the hood from the ghost, and you realize it's all man winter from the convenience store. is that what we are worried about -- >> it's not that we are wondering where it is. we know where it is. we've seen now, some of the latest reporting, that people that are maxed out to ron desantis are also getting to no labels. there is something here that, you know, you follow up this thing, and this all leads to a dead fish. this is an organization that is being funded, almost exclusively, by oil and gas guys, hedge fund bros, equity types, this are not exactly who your profile in progressive, democratic, or centrist circles. these are republican donors. a major donor to trump and to rudy and all these other people, one of the biggest funders of no labels. all the people giving the money, they are not on sophisticated politically. they know what they are doing. they don't want to show up on trump's report but they would be happy to have trump back and get the tax cuts and their regulatory relief. he's gonna provide them with that. and so, no labels is a show game. is a con game. nancy and mark are con artists in the political face of america. and they refused to say, where their money comes from. they also say that they are not going to have a primary for the no labels party, when it runs a candidate. they're gonna have a secret meeting where nancy's donors all come together in a room and they pick the candidate. that doesn't sound much like a democracy jimmy. this is like a middle path or an insurance policy -- it sounds more russia than america. >> rick wilson and joe walsh, thank you both so much. i should note that i identify joe manchin at one point a republican. my apologies for getting his labels wrong. he's always been a democrat albeit a conservative one. so i have mislabeled the senator who now wants to flirt with no labels. [laughter] >> still to come on velshi, this weekend, we are celebrating the 50th anniversary of mind loving hip-hop. for decades, wrap years it has served as a platform that quantico's the black experience with the criminal justice system. and ironically, there's been a consistent attempt by people in that system to criminalize music. in just a bit, i will be joined by professors imani perry and mark joseph neil, and my friend pioneer and rapper -- also head to msnbc.com to check out my latest piece, hip-hop and the criminal justice system, repeatedly put one and another on trial. i am charles coleman jr. in for ali velshi. and we will be right back with more velshi, on msnbc. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ to raise your glass and reconnect. to reel in the fun and savor every bite. to help you get ready your aspen dental team is celebrating 25 years of affordable care with an epic summer of smiles event. don't miss enjoying a moment, with our onsite labs to help you, fast, and 20% off your denture care. so, whether you need a new look or a quick fix, you can celebrate with a smile all season— always at aspen dental. book today. 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(vo) subaru is the national park foundation's largest corporate donor, helping expand access for all. what if your entire day glided like dove men? it's made with a plant-based moisturizer and glides on without irritation. so you can glide through your entire day with confidence. ♪♪ feel the dove men glide. ♪ ♪ ♪ >> welcome back to velshi. i am charles coleman jr. in for ali velshi today. a police investigation is now underway after a three year old died while riding on a bus full of migrants traveling from texas to chicago. texas authorities confirmed that the child's death had been, happened in a statement that released on friday. and this is the first time that state officials have announced the death of a migrant since it began shuttling thousands of migrants from the u.s. mexico border to the northern cities just last year. the circumstances surrounding the child's death remain unclear. let's get right to it with nbc's george solis who's been following the story from our chicago bureau. george, what more do you know, what can you tell us? >> good morning, charles, good to be with you. even we know this ongoing investigation, as you said, this is the first time texas has announced the, death when it began busing migrants from the u.s. mexico border to cities like chicago, philadelphia, new york. this is so much a bigger picture, this is part of operation lone star which governor greg abbott has started, busing migrants to some of the cities. we know according to the texas division of emergency management at all the passengers on the bus from brownsville on their way to chicago were processed by u.s. customs and border protection, which included things like temperature screening, medical screening, the agency says no passengers showed any signs of fever or medical concern. now, in a statement, officials say, quote, part, every every loss of life in tragedy. and once the child is presented with health concerns, the bus pulled over and security personnel called 9-1-1 for emergency attention. now, the child whose age or gender or nationality has not officially been released, taken to a local hospital where they unfortunately later died. now, we should note nbc news is also reaching to the illinois state police. the agency is calling it an open investigation at this time. the illinois department of health also releasing a statement to nbc news saying in part, quote, the agency is working with local health officials, state police, and federal authorities to get answers in this tragic situation. charles, back to you. >> nbc's george solis in chicago, thanks. still to come on velshi, new reporting about the lavish billionaire funded vacations taken by justice clarence thomas. but let me be clear -- this is not just a clarence thomas problem. this is a supreme court problem. more on this, after the break on velshi. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ you can have nice things. um kelly? we have champagne taste... on a hard seltzer budget... wayfair's got just what you need! what... y'all this is nice. salad plates? kelly clarkson? i'm fancy now! i have always wanted statement lighting. get nice things at nice prices at wayfair! ♪ wayfair, you've got just what i need ♪ mr. clean magic eraser powers through tough messes. so it makes it look like i spent hours cleaning, and you know i didn't. it makes my running shoe look like new! it's amazing. it's so good. it makes it look like i have magical powers. magic eraser and sheets make cleaning look easy. this is a bombas performance sock. for such a small item it performs big in so many ways. big on comfort. big on durability. big on breathability. bombas gives you big comfort for all your athletic pursuits. from pep in their step to shine in their coats, when people switch their dog's food to the farmer's dog, the effects can seem like magic. but there's no magic involved. 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what that law is? why does it make certain gifts more important to disclose than others? >> yes, so, it is the ethics and government act, charles. it was passed after watergate. and it pretty much says that government officials, most government officials, including the justices, have to disclose on their yearly financial reports. most gifts that they received, now, there are some exemptions. but those exemptions do not cover things like private plane travel, yacht cruises, expensive sports tickets. the ethics experts we spoke with, including some former federal judges, said that by not disclosing the fact that he accepted those gifts, those are the violations of the ethics and government act. >> just to be clear, again, we are not just talking about clarence thomas. and this is not something that breaks down along conservative or liberal ideology in terms of the judges. we know for example that justice alito, when he passed, he was actually one of these trips at a ranch. we know that justice ruth bader ginsburg had actually taken a trip to jordan for a two, that was also criticized. but historically, justices have accepted these lavish trips and gifts. mark, what do you think is the precedent that is being set with respect to the supreme court, and how it handles these ethical dilemmas? >> well, right now, the court is setting a precedent that essentially says we don't handle these dilemmas. we simply ignore them. when congress probes us, we fight back. the chief justice sent a letter to the senate saying i will not testify this operation of powers give me the right to essentially blow you off. i think there is a serious problem here that does apply to justices of both ideologies but has historically been much more of a problem on the right flank of the court. you know, you mentioned judge ruth bader ginsburg troops, including to israel and jordan, we can questioned the propriety of those. but she did disclose them. and i think it's important to remember that this is really fundamentally about an existing federal statute that says justices must disclose certain gifts, and things like private flights do not fall under an exemption. and so, you know, it's important to separate out this federal law which if anyone else violated it, they get slapped with a 50,000 dollar fine. clarence thomas does not because he's a justice. and then, this broader question of imposing an ethics code on the court, which is even, if it were a voluntary thing for the justices to follow, a huge hot potato for the justices, and they seem not to want to do it. so we have like, two layers, i think, of impropriety here. you not only have justices like thomas violating the actual law as it exists now, but you also have justices like john roberts saying, well, we do not answer to congress. we cannot be regulated by congress. so, congress can't even tell us to adopt our own ethics code. it is a huge mess. and it is not the way that you would ideally want to see public servants with lifetime tenure conduct themselves. >> brett, to that point, is it a bigger issue here, the appearance of impropriety, in as much as you get access to the justices on the supreme court, when you are someone who is affiliated with an organization with power, influence, money, and status. isn't that really the big issue here, the problem in terms of what it appears like to the public and the faith that we can have as to the impartiality of these democratic institutions? >> that's exactly the point of the ethics and government act disclosure requirements, charles. they are transparency laws so people can see when you have accepted certain gifts. and, you know, it doesn't come down so much, i think, according to experts we talk to, about the fact that justice thomas had accepted these gifts, because as we were talking about earlier a lot of the other justices have as well. and you can question the propriety of that. but they were not disclosed, and those were the violations of the law. and even if these people don't have -- the people taking them on these trips, even if they don't have direct business before the court, the people we spoke to said, yes, but they work in industries that are impacted immeasurably by many decisions coming out of the court. we are talking about oil, power utilities, international shipping. these are large, large industries, and they depend a lot on, you know, their ideology being spoken for at the court. >> brett, really quickly, before i give mark the last word. this piece focused a lot on clarence thomas. can we expect additional pieces that are going to broaden the scope and get to the same level of detail as to other justices on the court? >> yes, we are gonna keep floating the evidence as it comes in. we can only do so much, as journalists, you know, if it's true and we can prove it, we are gonna report on that. we are reporting on all the justices and following all the credible tips as they come in, charles. >> mark, last word to you, very quickly. is the confidence from the public in our democratic institutions, like the supreme court, in jeopardy? do you think that is something we should be worrying about when these types of stories come out? >> absolutely. we have to remember that the supreme court doesn't have an army to enforce its decisions. it really relies on the public believing that what it says becomes the law. and when the public stops believing that, the court is actually risk of losing its power. but i would also add, you know, this latest story shows a very troubling trend. you see this group of billionaires essentially constructing a cult around clarence thomas, trying to lift him as a civil rights leader, paintings, museums, writing songs to pay tribute to him. and then, selling that to the public as though it is some kind of organic grassroots love of the justice, when in fact it was engineered from the top down. the public is smarter than these billionaires are giving them credit for. the public sees that there is a well funded, dark money campaign to paint justice thomas as this unimpeachable and brilliant hero of the judiciary. and the public is not buying it. so, i do think not only is this a problem for the court, but the reporting from propublica has shown that the billionaires were behind all of this, had a plan. it hasn't worked very well. in fact, it's backfired because the courts approval reading today has never been lower. >> propublica's brett murphy and slates mark joseph stern, thank you both for being here. coming up, new charges against donald trump for his attempt to subvert the 2020 election in georgia, and that could come as early as tomorrow or this week. what we know about that investigation in fulton county? 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