illegal clarence thomas exception of luxury gifts and travel might finally force the court to take action. and, breaking developments in the georgia election probe, our strongest indication yet that a grand jury could indict donald trump in a matter of days. i am ayman mohyeldin lets, get started. >> and we begin with that breaking news out of georgia this hour, fulton county's returning fani willis will begin presenting her election interference case against donald trump and his allies to a grand jury early next week. the atlanta journal-constitution is reporting the timeline came into sharper focus when former georgia lieutenant governor jeff duncan and independent journalist george shady separately confirmed they had received notifications they will testify on tuesday. now, this means the public might know by tuesday whether jurors indict the ex president. tuesday evening, to be specific. willis is expected to begin her presentation to grandeurs on monday. we're gonna have more on this breaking development later in the show. but we first began with a reality check for the now the race undated ex president. donald clump trump, quote, as a criminal defendant. he's gonna have restrictions like any other criminal defendant. those were the words of judge tanya chutkan. the federal judge overseeing special counsel jack smith's election interference case against, trump and hearing yesterday that she rejected trump's request to be able to speak more broadly and publicly about the investigation. in a new productive order, chutkan limited the ex president and attorneys from publicly discussing, any, quote, sensitive material -- that includes, quote, any personally identified information concerning witnesses. information that had emerged from a grand jury. and any materials turned over from other government entities. during that, hearing trump's legal team argued that too strict of a protective order would stifle the candidates constitutional rights. but judge chutkan, well,, she basically shot that down. quote, mr. trump, like every american has a first amendment right to free speech. but that rate is not absolute. it is an early blow to what is george expected to be the centuries of trump's defense in the trial. since this lays indictments dropped in june, rather -- well it's kind of making the runoff. they've been arguing that the government's entire case is simply nothing more than a brazen attack on trump's first amendment political speech. >> this is a free speech killing indictment. killing free speech, that sort of. this >> criminalizing speech for this reason. what the president saw in the 2020 election was all these irregularities going on. >> he had every right to comment on that and act politically. you are entitled to question whether it was honest about. that was the uniqueness of the first amendment. that is the uniqueness of america. but you know what? you shouldn't be prosecuted for your thoughts. >> yeah, so here's the thing with that, according to legal experts, that's not actually a defense that will hold any water. legal experts say that there is little legal merit to that argument, particularly since the breadth of steps taken by the ex president and his allies to overturn the election transformed near speech into action. trump isn't being indicted for what he said about the 2020 election. he's actually being indicted for what he did, allegedly engaging in a criminal conspiracy to overturn the will of american voters. trump's first amendment fallacy isn't just a shaky defense in the courtroom, there is actually a growing risk that his views will term silent could derail candidate trump and all of this could be before it even gets to hit the campaign trail and current. earlier this, week prosecutors from the special counsel's office put forward a proposed trial date, landing on january 2nd. however, during friday's hearing, judge chutkan cautioned that the more either party makes, quote, inflammatory statements about the case, the greater the urgency and the speed of the trial date. the judge warned that even, quote, arguably ambiguous statements could be construed as intimidation or harassment of potential witnesses. judge chutkan ended the hearing with this promise, quote, i will take whatever measures are necessary to safeguard the integrity of the case. so there you have it, plain and simple. judge chutkan has laid it out in black and white. the exact parameters by which trump must abide. which leads us with this question. will the ex president actually listen? will the judges warnings fall on deaf ears? right now donald trump is fire.g with and with every new speech on social media post he makes, he runs a risk of getting burned. let's bring in my panel for the evening, jennifer todd is a professor at western new ofland university school .aw she's really author of big money. paul john passes a special correspondent for vanity fair and the host of fast politics podcast -- bloomberg opinion -- this evening, jennifer, i'll start with you. our own lucy reuben was inside that courtroom yesterday. she noted that the judge chutkan used the trump lawyers markup of the protection order us as the baseline of the -- making mostly opportunists based on their proposed added's. and this order isn't nearly as restrictive as the government had hoped. but how do you view the unresolved. is this a win for team trump or not? >> i don't see it as a win for team trump. what this is is a fair and balanced protective order which is designed to make sure that donald trump can't intimidate witnesses. and i expect that he will have trouble following guidance here. because i think he is going to take notes, i think he's gonna write down personally identifying information. and i think it is gonna be very hard for him not to attack the key witnesses when he is on the campaign trail. and then i think judge chutkan is going to have to find a way to enforce, and i think he is already hinted about what her remedy will be. >> ali, there are two courts that this trial is taking place in. one is the actual court itself, d.c.. the other is the court of public opinion. i mentioned that legal experts may view trump's first amendment defense when it comes to his election interference efforts. then pretty much dismissed. that -- is not really a legal argument. but with that argument play in court of public opinion? >> so i think it's interesting, because you are seeing trump world -- they have decided they are gonna work through, after a? they're gonna try to get the basic slated, they are gonna say this is not a case. they're running against me. they are running to hurt me. not a legal case, but really a political case. and i think that that is going to run counter to what the judge is ordering. but i do think you are going to have a problem where it may end up being that the judge -- blocked a local, can't local. there's no mechanism for a case like this against the political candidate running for president. i think she's gonna get into some trouble there. >> yeah, it's either the cheers boxer self in, i, mean lafayette, but obviously the doctors open if you wanted to take severe measures against trump. what we saw a little bit, they approved a cause that the protective order prevents trump from having access to electronic devices while reviewing this discovery documents. that came after one federal prosecutor told the judge the trump, who, as shown a tendency to hold on to material which he should not. how do you think the ex president will react these restrictions? what are the chances that he gets reprimanded going forward? >> stone said, i think he will completely ignore them. don trump was a 77 year old man who has been squarely in the public eye for about five decades. and he said whatever he wants to say, where he wants to say it. the differently now that she is a target of a very robust federal investigation. criminal investigation. he has never encountered before. he hasn't been in this situation before. and the sort of methods that has developed around him that he has known legal lives, and you can escape the -- the reality is that this is new territory, and is untested. but he isn't actually gonna fall back on his own troops. to try to poison the public's view of the court system, of prosecutors, and essentially of the rule of law. once an insurrectionist, always an insurrectionist. in terms of, you know, the judge. i don't think that she, she is exercising her proper duties as a judge. i don't think she is boxing, i would disagree -- with you boxers off in. she has to deal with a defendant who is ignoring the rule of law and ignoring court orders. the reason this corpus exist so he can't intimidate potential witnesses. can't poison the views of potential jurors, demanding that legal process every time we think about the evidence -- and she's not going to want him many times, i think this is the last time she is gonna want him. but ultimately she's gonna have to decide whether or not she puts him in jail for ignoring court order. and i don't see that it's boxing yourself in. i think if push comes to some of she should put him in jail. >> all right, just to be clear, that was me who made that comment that she might be boxing yourself and. and i totally appreciate you, you know, having a different opinion. but what could she possibly do, jennifer? i mean, let's say trump does file this protective order by discussing sensitive material in public or making inflammatory statements about being a witness. she has promised to take whatever measures are necessary to protect the integrity of the process. proceedings. but to molly's point here, he is the front runner of the republican party, and yet she still has to abide by the rule of law to make sure that he is not treated any differently. so could be potentially see donald trump breaking these rules and ending up in jail? >> so she hinted, or she always explicitly said, here is what i'm gonna do. if this information gets out there, and hence the jury pool or undermine's integrity of these proceedings,, he will speed up the child. now, i don't know if that is her way of saying, hey, i hope you stay quiet. because we are coming back here on the 20th to set a trial date. or if she would actually be willing to, you know, if the data reset, let's say january 2nd she would be willing to say, no, we're gonna go sooner. i'm not sure. i agree that right now, it looks like he can't and won't comply. but i think we have got a couple of weeks to see. i also agree that it will be similar to judge couplet in terms of escalating before she gets to the point of incarcerating, just like he did with -- fried yesterday. >> earlier, today the ex president was on the campaign trail in iowa doubling down on his election lies once again. watch this. >> you know, we did great in 2016, we, when we did, machete to say this, we did much better in 2020, the election was rigged. so we'll be back and will be taking any chances. will be up over the country. over 50 points, that's a lot. but we don't want to take any chances. we'll be back. >> so as i was, saying there is an interesting dilemma here. i mean, if the judge does sign off on the prosecutor's proposal date for this trial, january 2nd, it could affect his ability to campaign ahead of the states caucuses, which are scheduled written for january the 15th. how do you think the trial will play generally, well to disrupt trump's campaign. is this going to have an actual material impact on his ability to campaign? even if it doesn't necessarily impact his standing with voters? >>, right and this is just one of many. right? i mean, there is the -- this is the second -- one state indictment, and another one probably coming next week. so yeah, i mean, look, he is going to play this politically. it has worked with the gop base so far. the other candidate, you know, with the person who was his sort of competition, what, 30, 40 points behind him? i mean, he can barely get 20 points. we know, barely committed 20 points of desantis. and so i do think ultimately that it has been quite, you know, it has been quite good for trump. he has used these to sort of make a case against -- keith against biden as opposed to what they really are, which is, you know, him being held accountable for things he did when he was in office. i do think that, this is gonna be hugely expensive. -- legitimate concern, people, you know, to have four of these going at once while running for president and being 77 years old, it's quite a lot. but again, you know, you -- think he is really a danger, and i think he is quite smart and weaponizing things that he's done and making them seem like -- it's a problem. >> tamales, point him, what about his rivals. i mean, as this race heats up, more indictments against the front-runner appear to be piling up. do you see the tidal turning? do you see anyone finally besides asa hutchison or chris christie actually taking the gloves off -- and a punch on trump over these inme? >> chris christie is already taking the gloves off. i think nobody else in the field stands a chance right now, displacing the front runner. i think he owns the gop, the gop is essentially a hostage video with him right now. it cannot escape them, they don't want to be with him. and they are stuck together. sanders tried to be trump light, he wore trumpism on his sleeve. the reality is that donald trump was an unusually charismatic person. and other people in the gop can't emulate that, even if they try to emulate all of his dark arts. >> i was gonna, say hostage videos exactly the best way to describe it. and who would have thought that this is where the republican party would be in 2023. jennifer, todd tim o'brien, thank you to the both of. you please stick around, we will catch up with you a little bit later on in the hour. after the, break we are gonna continue the conversation which harvard constitutional law professor laurence tribe, whose scholarship was misrepresenting trump allies in their attempts to overturn the 2020 election. we are gonna explain that. ...because t-mobile helps pano ai innovate, so they can stop the spread of wildfires. now's the time to see what america's largest 5g network can do for your business. detect this: living with hiv, i learned i can stay undetectable with fewer medicines. that's why i switched to dovato. dovato is a complete hiv treatment for some adults. no other complete hiv pill uses fewer medicines to help keep you undetectable than dovato. detect this: most hiv pills contain 3 or 4 medicines. dovato is as effective with just 2. if you have hepatitis b, don't stop dovato without talking to your doctor. don't take dovato if you're allergic to its ingredients or taking dofetilide. this can cause serious or life-threatening side effects. if you have a rash or allergic reaction symptoms, stop dovato and get medical help right away. serious or life-threatening lactic acid buildup and liver problems can occur. tell your doctor if you have kidney or liver problems, or if you are pregnant, breastfeeding, or considering pregnancy. dovato may harm an unborn baby. most common side effects are headache, nausea, diarrhea, trouble sleeping, tiredness, and anxiety. detect this: i stay undetectable with fewer medicines. ask your doctor about switching to dovato. i'm saving with liberty mutual, mom. they customize your car insurance so you only pay for what you need. you could save $700 dollars just by switching. ooooh, let me put a reminder on my phone. on the top of the pile! oh. only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ (vo) ninety-two percent of students in high-needs schools can't only pay for what you need. afford essential school supplies. subaru and our retailers are there to help by giving millions of dollars in funding along with school supplies students need. we call it “the subaru love promise” and we are proud to be the largest corporate supporter of adoptaclassroom.org. it's just one of the reasons forbes ranked subaru the number one automotive brand for social impact. subaru. more than a car company. sweet pillows of softness! this is soft! holy charmin! oh! excuse me! roll it back, everybody!! charmin ultra soft is so cushiony soft, you'll want more! but it's so absorbent, you can use less. enjoy the go with charmin. bridgett is here. she has no clue that i'm here. she has no clue who's in the helmet. are you ready? -i'm ready! alright. xfinity rewards creates experiences big and small, kenneth cheever, a trump ally and once-in-a-lifetime. and if you -- coconspirator five, first -- electors to support the 2020 election in a previously unknown -- came to light in last week's criminal indictment. prosecutors are portraying that memo as a crucial length in how the trump team's efforts involve into an actual criminal conspiracy. according to a copy of the memo dated december six, 2020, which was obtained by the new york times. she's burrowed lined that plot with detailed instructions and a messaging strategy that cited the work of his former harvard constitutional law professor, laurence tribe. professor tribe is gonna join us in just a moment. but she's burrow was working as tribes resources and while he was a law student. and later helped him represent al gore during the 22,000 election. the times reports that enamel, and a previous memo drafted weeks earlier, chesebro quoted a clause from a law review article, by mr. trump about bush v. gore, asked for supports that only real, only real legal deadline is january the 6th. in an essay published this week on the legal website just security, professor tribe says she's burrows were, quote, relied on a gross misrepresentation of my scholarship. i think that chesebro a setting my work in support of the very opposite conclusion to undercut the constitutional status of the electoral counts act. professor of constitutional law amherst -- harvard university, lawrence tribe joins me now. first, drive it is great to see you again. thanks for coming back. i'm back on the show. we can't speak to a better person about this than you. as i mentioned, kenneth chesebro played a key role in this fake electors plot. could you expand for us and our viewers on how he misrepresented your work in his nose? how he used to how you misrepresented it? >> to put it in perspective, my work it's really not all that important. what is important is that the former president has been indicted for conspiring with six corrupt lawyers who helped him engineer an attempted coup to take over the government of the united states by preventing the lawful transition of power. yes, one of the lawyers that helped do this was kenneth chesebro, and yes kenneth chesebro did it partly by saying in these memos that what i had said about florida in the case of bush v. gore could somehow be extrapolated to all the states, wisconsin, michigan, pennsylvania, arizona. new mexico, he completely twisted everything out of shape. and to get into the weeds of how he did it, it's really basically piling on. i don't think i need to do that, the indictment makes it clear. a lot of other steelers have now gone into it. there is an essay on msnbc.com by norm eisen and fragile wartime or today it. explains it all. i don't want to make it look like, oh, i am offended that can trust burrow did something to my work. that's really not what the important point is. the important point is that a number of lawyers unlike the great tradition of making even pretty bold arguments in court, in open court. just an adversary and a judge to weigh things. a number of lawyers and secret or waiting openings, twisting law with nobody on the other side. it's a lot liquid alanreed in the senate. although, that was in, you know, in the wide open. there was really nobody who was going to make a judgment except for the senate, which had already decided that it would quid trump. so he could just, you know, to make up all the arguments you want, likewise, jesper and john eastman and giuliani and sidney powell and bush epstein, these people could just tell trump what he wanted to hear, and then he would then bring them into the fold. they would devise elaborate strategies for doing things that were absolutely fake, counterfeit electors. forged certificates. no, you know, it's not legal advice. this is using the tools of law to dismantle the country. that's what's important. it's not so important that a former research assistant of mine evidently didn't have any moral compass or conscience. >> so speaking of dismantling democracy, i, mean in the jaw security article you write, quote, removing the guardrails of electoral counts act as trust burrow sought to do could ravenously endanger our entire system of self government under law. do you feel that chaperoned other trump allies have now leaked the groundwork for another future attempt to overturn unfavorable election results. but they may have learned where the safe valves are. and next time around know how to manipulate the system and exploited loopholes? >> absolutely. this was a dry run. and it is true that next time around, trump is not going to be president, not in november of 24, he won't have the tools of the presidency to work with. but if notwithstanding that, he manages to win the election. or manages to foment chaos and make it look like he has won the election. if he manages to get into power and people like jesper and eastman and giuliani and powell have not been in prison for what they did, they will have every reason to join back into the sort of fleet of conspirators. and who knows when, if ever, someone like trump will leave office again. this is really a set up for a dictatorship. and that is not just an unfortunate thing because, you know, we know dictatorships are theoretically bad. every one of us, our freedom, our liberty, it's on the line. if there is someone empower who cannot be held to account, who even if he is voted out of office can hold on to power. then none of us of safe. so the narrative that trump is trying to tell when he says, i am being that for you, you are in danger. it might come through you next, that is just projection. the person who might come for you next is trump. and those under his command. that is what is at stake. and that is why it is so dangerous that lawyers like chess burrow and those who co conspired with him and with trump are still on the loose, haven't lost their law licenses yet, although they are being investigated. and they might be disciplined by the bar. it is entirely possible that they won't be held fully accountable. now i do think that they are likely to be indicted by fani willis next week. i would expect some of these lawyers will be, maybe they will be indicted by jack smith in separate indictments. but it's very important that they be held accountable so that they can't do it again and others undeterred. seeing that you are one of the most prominent constitutional scholars and lawyers in this country, i want to get your thoughts on trump's legal defense in this indictment. trump and his lawyers have cited his first amendment rights as a defense strategy against the criminal charges that he is facing inspiring to overturn the election. in your expert opinion, is that a viable strategy? >> completely bogus as a legal strategy, because he is not being punished for his thoughts, his speeches, it was entirely free to say. and he is entirely free to say it. as long as he lives, that he thinks the election was stolen from him. what he is not free to do is to conspire with others to commit various crimes. like submitting false electoral states. orchestrating an overthrow of the government. that is not speech, that is action, that is conduct. and it is, there is no basis at all for this legal offense. but it plays well on tv, that is the point. when a guy like john moreau appears on tv and he is well dressed and he has got a suit and he has got a tie and he says my client is being punished for free speech, an awful lot of people have no way of knowing whether that is true or false. and certainly the people who will believe anything that trump and his advocates say will think, well, yeah, maybe that's what's involved here. that's also dangerous, and it's dangerous because it cheapens the meaning of the first amendment. if people think the first amendment gives you the right to rob a bank as long as you do it with words and holdup notes or to commit fraud as long as you use words, to think of it, it's impossible to do blackmail without words. it's impossible to have a conspiracy, almost impossible to have one without speech. the fact doesn't mean that speech in the form of the freedom of speech is a shield. and if people think it is, then that is gonna make for. -- very smart point to end on, that's exactly why i wanted to get your thoughts, and professor laurence tribe, it's always a pleasure to serve, thank you so much for your time and your insights, as always. >> thank you for having me. >> thank you,. after the break jackson's latest indictment reinforces that the threat to our democracy goes well beyond donald trump. owerful, easy-to-use tools, power e*trade makes complex trading easier. react to fast-moving markets with dynamic charting and a futures ladder that lets you place, flatten, or reverse orders so you won't miss an opportunity. e*trade from morgan stanley. life, diabetes. each day is a unique blend of going, doing, and living. glucerna protein smart with 30 grams of protein to help keep you moving. uniquely designed with carbsteady to help manage blood sugar response. glucerna, bring on the day. 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to justice via this prosecution. but that act alone won't protect the constitutional order. trump will turn this indictment as he has done so with his previous indictments into yet more proof that he is the target of a corrupt and nefarious aim to destroy the country. so that means that if trump were able to harness this anger again and turn it into electoral winds or votes, his second term would be designed with one goal and one goal only. to make his legal troubles disappear. as david frum writes in the atlantic, the entire term would be consumed by the battle over trump's project to use the power of the presidency to protect himself from the consequences of his election crimes. for me, now ruth -- professor of history at nyu and author of strong man, mussolini to the present. molly joint fast is back with us. proof, i want to get your reaction to this argument from david corn. that this third indictment details the start starkest threat to our democracy. because trump enlisted so many efforts in his to overturn the election. and they believed the big lie. >> yes, i think that's right, i was very pleased to see so much attention paid not only to what we call the elite enablers, the lawyers, the coconspirators, and of course the recourse to violence. but propaganda. and they're all connected. this is it, they worked together in the authoritarian playbook. and we have a kind of emergency of disinformation now. because new polls show that 70% of republicans believe that trump won the 2020 election. and one in six republican voters think that all of the indictments are just a ploy to keep him out of the white house. and this works together with the violence that is being incited by people like congressman matt gaetz, who said, oh, it's only through force that we can change things. >> so that's how the pieces fit together, which just makes it such a threat for our democracy. >> i am so glad that you brought up that point but matt gaetz's comments today. because, you know, if this was on the other side, if this was somebody who was a liberal or a progressive or democrat who said that the only way is through force? the right would be up in arms, this country would be talking about it, fox news would be going into a tailspin. and yet here we are, it's almost as if it has been normalized. and i think molly, that is what is so dangerous about it. about a second trump term. but he could just, you know, normalize this behavior. clean house at the justice department, attempt to pardon himself. but is in a constitutional crisis in more ways than one, and, you know, that's a very real fear going into this presidential election. but i am not sure every american recognizes this. >> yeah, for me, what i find the scariest, is that donald trump has all of these other republicans who are supporting him. if all these other republicans who are saying the things that markets is saying, or the things that ron desantis is saying. we really are seeing a republican party as we've taken over by trump. so there are very few adults in the, room very -- harshly we have a group of republicans who really are turned against democracy. have embraced authoritarianism. hold up countries like hungary as the model of how they want to live. and that is a quite scary for american democracy. and -- using the term, from term, i don't think trump thinks this is a term. i think trump thinks of this, as i don't know what he needs. >> more for him a coronation -- as we've seen with other democratically elected leaders in the past. even if he's not reelected,, there's something -- we have republicans who don't really talk about defunding the police, constantly talking about a deep state conspiracy. republicans have followed trump's, lead urging for the doj, the fbi, -- even if trump were to get out of politics, trumpism -- it is here to stay. >> it has really come in autocratic party that is -- proving it doesn't work. but taking down america as a global democratic party abroad. that's why rand paul, who so pro putin, is holding up all the diplomatic appointments. that's why tommy prevail was one of all the military appointments, there is a friend of desire to sabotage american democracy. what i want to go back to matt gaetz's comments. which is part of this, but some pockets. he said it is only three fourths that we can clean up a city as corrupt as washington d.c.. what he's saying is that they are not going to have change their elections or legislation forward through. they will change through violence, that's a fascist stop. so even if trump is out of the picture, these are people who have adopted methods very familiar to me as a historian of fascism. that violence and corruption and lying, that is what the party is today. >> and as we have seen, or some they may dismiss it as rhetorical, but there are people out there who will hear that and take it literally, and we have seen what has happened. people showing up at former president obama's house with guns. or doing something else. with india, malaysia impasse, always a pleasure and thank you to the both of you for joining us tonight. next, at the esper say clarence thomas appears to have violated the law. again, we will tell you about that. that holy charmin! oh! excuse me! roll it back, everybody!! charmin ultra soft is so cushiony soft, you'll want more! but it's so absorbent, you can use less. enjoy the go with charmin. age is just a number, and mine's unlisted. try boost® high protein with 20 grams of protein for muscle health versus 16 grams in ensure® high protein. boost® high protein. now available in cinnabon® bakery-inspired flavor. learn more at boost.com/tv ♪♪ open talenti and raise the jar to gelato made from scratch. raise the jar to flavors from the world's finest ingredients. and now, from jars to bars. new talenti gelato and sorbetto mini bars. ♪♪ when i was diagnosed with h-i-v, i didn't know who i would be. but here i am... being me. keep being you... 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previous suites at sporting events. and sent their private jets to functions. including on more than one occasion an entire 7:37. thomas's long list of generous gifts include at least 38 destination getaways. 26 private jet flights. eight more by helicopter. he doesn't a dozen vip passes to professional college sports games. and one standing invitation to an uber-exclusive golf club situated on a bluff over the atlantic coast. and these generous friends of thomas, friends who have become close with him after he is handed to the nation's highest court, include david sokol, a former top executive at berkshire. the late age when was in, got a florida billionaire, paul tony novelly, a literal oil baron. another names appear on promises financial exposures, which could be a violation of the law. according to ethics experts. joining me now, -- partly traditional into the dirtied -- berkeley and a former u.s. structure judge for the northern district of california -- 's former federal judge, would you have unable to keep your job if you keep engage in conduct like clarence thomas. >> let me say this. there are two different regulatory scenes here, one of them is the ethics and government act, which is the one that requires that reporting. and the other is the code of conduct for united states judges, which applies to all federal judges, except for the justices of the supreme court. to answer your question, i would not have been able to do this on a number of levels. one, i doubt and i really don't know that time will tell, but i doubt that all of the gifts and in question here were not reportable. and the other point i would make is that under the candidates that apply to all the other judges in the country, both stay in federal -- the volume of the gifts would create a problem of an appearance undue influence -- people are entitled, judges are entitled to have social life. but in the scope of the large is given to a judge, gets so noticeable. and then it creates an appearance that the judge is subject to influence. and i think it is particularly true if the relationships develops -- really are those who oppose -- biden sexually, think while, that's got about, why would every judge in this country be held to a certain standard of ethics but not the supreme court justices? is there, from your expert opinion, any valid reason why supreme court justice are held to a different standard. do not have to abide by the same ethics standards as other federal and state judges in this country? >> well the historical reason the court has given is that they are unique from a constitutional point of view. that the constitution creates one court, that's the supreme court. and it gives congress the power to create other courts, which is all the other federal courts in the country. and the court is always taking the position historically that congress and the supreme court are coequal branches of government, so congress is not in a position to prescribe how the court regulates itself, or how the court, certainly how they decide cases. it's an issue of judicial independence. i have said now for some months and i continue to believe very strongly that a lack of a code of conduct for the supreme court is a real problem, it's a problem of legitimacy and at the problem of transparency. because we don't know what rules the justices are supposed to follow. you know, there is a lot of focus on what happens with one justice or another. it can be justice thomas or justice alito or justice moderate, or some of the justice. there are justice throughout history of our country who have other ethical questions raised. but the lack of a code of conduct where you can see here, here are the rules, here's what you need to do, here are the standards that apply to everyone, that we all have accepted, governor behavior. the court doesn't have that. and whether or not it is constitutionally required, i think it's a mistake for the court not to go there voluntarily. i think the court ought to simply do it as a way of saying to the country that we take ethics seriously, we care about our fix, we care about our legitimacy, we want to be transparent. the court of conduct for the court might look a little different, some issues around accuses, for justice refuses -- to replace them in our system. but there is really no reason why they can't have a publicly adopted and visible code of conduct. and i feel quite certain that if they did that we would at least begin to restore some of the confidence that has been eroding over the last several years. >> would you say, and i don't know to what extent you have been following all of the reporting around clarence thomas, what would you say based on the public reporting that is out there, that clarence thomas violated either lost four at the very least ethics? >> all, the loss, at that for national caucus in the united states and the committee of financial disclosure, of which i was a member for seven years. they were the ones who are charged with that responsibility. they need to look at each instance has been reported in the propublica report. also, decide whether disclosure was required. and so i don't have a opinion about that, because i haven't really investigated all of the facts. >> can i ask, can i ask, when is disclosure required? maybe that will help answer that for us? >> oh, okay, sure, no, i'm sorry. disclosure is required if you get a gift. there are some exceptions for gifts between social friends. there are some exceptions for gifts of minimal value. but what i think is the problem here is more a problem of ethics, it's a problem of appearances. that the volume of the gifts that were reported here by propublica, if that volume of gifts is confirmed by investigations, and those facts are established, in my experience, and i've been doing ethics for 40 years, i started doing it in the 1980s when i was a state judge in california. this is an unprecedented situation. never personally seen a situation where a judge or a justice cannot receive this kind of riches from everyone. whether it's happened, before i obviously don't, know i have not studied every judge and justice whoever served. but it certainly in my experience is never happened before. >>, yes as i was, saying 30 destinations, 26 private jet flights, eight more by helicopter, a dozen vip passes to professional college sports games. i wish we had friends like these. but not if you are on the supreme court. >> i want to say one thing though, and i really appreciate you for giving me the time tonight. i think if we spend all of our time looking at justice thomas or justice alito or any other justice, and we make it about them, we are missing the larger point. which is, you know, the supreme court is a really important institution in our country, it has so much influence on our lives. we are a divided country. the courts decisions are extremely important and consequential. they need to be legitimate. >> yes, absolutely. >> the lack of a code of conduct is real proud of problem. >> that's a really important, point i'm glad you made, former federal judge, thank you very much, we're very we'll be right back. back -it's a nail fungus infection. -...that's gross! -it's nothing, really... -it's contagious. you can even spread it to other people. -mom, come here! -don't worry about it. it'll go away on its own! -no, it won't go away on its own. it's an infection. you need a prescription. nail fungus is a contagious infection. at the first signs, show it to your doctor... ... and ask if jublia is right for you. jublia is a prescription medicine used to treat toenail fungus. its most common side effects include ingrown toenail, application site redness... ... itching, swelling, burning or stinging, blisters and pain. jublia is recognized by the apma. most commercially insured patients may pay as little as $0 copay. go to jubliarx.com now to get started. when migraine strikes, 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