election detailed a new trump indictment. and the detroit news, donald trump made knowingly false claim about michigan election indictment. the milwaukee journal sentinel, wisconsin fake electors scheme is at the center of donald trump indictment. the philadelphia inquirer, what to know about the pennsylvania fake electors mentioned in trump's third indictment. the criminal conspiracy alleged in this new indictment of donald trump had the biggest and gravest national ambitions to hold on to the presidency against the will of the voters. but the conspiracy itself played out in localities across the country, in what we now call the fake elector scheme, the scheme in which republican electors in states that joe biden won signed their names to forged documents pretending that it was actually donald trump who won the presidential election in those states. at the time, as it was actually playing out in december of 2020, it mostly looked like sort of sad theatrics from a bunch of pro-trump dead enders in a handful of states. there were the trump electors in michigan, kind of pathetically trying to talk the way into the state capital even though the real electors, the biden electors, were already inside certifying their votes. in georgia, while the real biden electors were certifying their votes in the state capital, the trump electors found themselves in some room somewhere else in the building to cast their fake votes. in arizona, the trump electors proudly posted video of their fake signing ceremony to twitter. in the words of the washington post, at the time, the gathering seemed to be a slapdash desperate attempt to mimic president donald trump's refusal to concede. but what now appears to have taken place according to jack smith's indictment wasn't something that was slapdash. it was not just mimicry. these efforts were the culmination of a complex and very deliberate plot described in great detail in this new federal indictment, a plot that was devised by two lawyers who are referred to in the indictment as trump's coconspirators. the alleged criminal plan here begins with this gentleman, john eastman, seen here in that fetching hat, riling up the crowd before the capitol attack on january 6th. john eastman started out by trying to convince republican state legislators to overturn the election results in various states that biden had won. as the indictment puts it, those efforts met with repeated failure. so, eastman and his coconspirators, including then-president trump, according to the indictment, they came up with a new plan. if they couldn't get the election results overturned in republican state legislatures, they would get the results overturned in congress. instead of getting republican lawmakers in these states to replace biden electors with trump electors, eastman advised they could create their own states, their own slates of fake trump electors. and then, when vice president pence presided over the congressional certification of the election results, what happened on january 6th, pence could use this fake slates to claim that trump had won. to implement that plan, they turned to another alleged coconspirator, kenneth chesebro. chesebro drafted memos basically, fake electors for dummies manuals. he drafted those memos for republicans to fall on each of those targeted states. but as cheseboro started disturbing these memos, these fake electors for dummies memos, from the people on the ground were not sure about this plan. one arizona attorney thought the plan was kind of a wild, creative. and while he gets wrongly that it was legally harmless, he recognized that the plan was exactly what it was, we would just be sending in fake electoral votes to pence. in pennsylvania and elsewhere, the electors themselves were getting nervous about this proposed plan. rudy giuliani allegedly lied to them, telling them their fake elector certificates were just a fail safe. they would only be used if trump managed to win the election in court. chesebro worried that the fake electors might be getting cold feet and drafted new memos. it removed references to the actual plan, which was deliberately overturning an election. internally, inside trump world, this plan was so obviously illegal that nobody on trump's uc it. trump's deputy campaign manager said, quote, here's the thing. the way this has morphed, it's a crazy play. i don't know who wants to put their name on it. the fake elector planners very clearly not a fail safe too be used only if trump prevailed in court. that was clear because in at least one state in new mexico, they were gathering fake electors, even though trump had no pending litigation challenging the election in that state. so, to prop up the fiction that these electors were a fail safe, the trump campaign filed an election challenge suit six minutes before the deadline for the fake electors vote. i guess you had to hand it to them for the hustle. after all of this, on december 14th, the fake electors voted. all that remained was for john eastman and president trump to convince everybody, including and especially mike pence, that mike pence had the power to use those fake electors, to hand the election to trump on january 6th. we know happened from here. pence rejected the idea, he launched a pressure campaign against pence, and then it all culminated in his speech on january 6th, and trump supporters attacked the capitol to try and stop vice president pence from certifying joe biden as the winner of the 2020 election. and donald trump and john eastman and kenneth chesebro are all alleged criminal coconspirators in the landmark legal case of the modern political era, which rests in large part on a detailed description of the fake electors scheme that puts all of these men put into motion. as much as we've thought the crime here being the insurrection, the capitol attack, one of the central crimes of this indictment played out in public. it played out its state capitals across the country. sometimes on television, sometimes on twitter. what at first appeared to be a series of a strange and sad theatrics, turned out to be an alleged criminal conspiracy of the most serious kind. joining us now is andrew weissmann, one of the senior prosecutors from robert mueller 's special counsel investigation, and co-host of the podcast "prosecuting donald trump." andrew, thank you for being here tonight. >> it's good to be here. >> as the dust settles, the way in which jack smith went about, and his fellow prosecutors, going about constructing this indictment, it seems more and more brilliant to be honest, in the way that it automatically refutes some of the defenses that we're starting to hear from trumpland. the first one that i would like to talk to you about is this idea of structuring the indictment around actions, not words, effectively leaving the insurrection itself almost as an afterthought. and really focusing on the conduct of the fake electors, john eastman, donald trump, and the actionable things that they did to steal the election. that seems very purposeful. >> absolutely. there was a lot of focus when this first happened on the ellipse, what happened on that moment, and everyone is really focused on the first amendment issues on that, which is that ncitement? will it meet the supreme court standard and hold back and forth? people, including myself, they were like, that is fraught in terms of a criminal case. they avoided all of that. one of the things when i was reading this, was an eye towards those kinds of decisions, keeping those very focused on conduct, not buying into a lot of those legal issues, knowing where the courts have been solid, where that courts have raised issues in avoiding all of that. i completely agree that this is really well thought through. it did not stop the wall street journal, the national review, people saying, oh, this violates their first amendment. just to be clear, that's wrong, it will not prevail in court. the first amendment doesn't make it legal to -- i mean, the first amendment makes it legal to speak. it does not make it legal to take actions that are illegal. you can say i want to rob a bank, but if you don't do anything about it, that is fine. if you go in and we agree, we talk about it, then do it. we were robbing a bank, it's the same way that in mob cases, people talk about the boss, they say i'm ordering you to murder someone. you can say, well, they were free to speak. that doesn't make it their language any less illegal. here, they really focused on specific conduct at issue. i think you're going to be steering way clear of those kinds of first amendment issues. >> i want to play a little bit of sound from trump's lawyer, john lauro, speaking with savannah guthrie on the today show this morning. it's like they haven't gotten member the first amendment here's what they said, let's take a listen. >> this is the first time that the first amendment has been criminalized. it is the first time that a sitting president is attacking a political opponent on first amendment grounds, basically making it criminal to state your position. >> i just don't get it. is this what they prepared in their defense and they are loathe to let it go? >> it's a talking point. this is a defense for the court of public opinion in terms of his base, that it's just not legally something that is going to pass muster. i think that the reliance on council, it still doesn't work. that was the other thing that eastman talked about. >> he basically said, you can do this, sir. >> and that's when you're worried, is something that people are allowed to rely in good faith on their council after they have told their counsel all of the relevant facts. thatt happens all the time you can have a good faith disagreement. there are so many problems with that issue here, for one thing, is there really going to be the president of the united states taking the stand and saying that i relied in good faith on these people, they weren't part of the conspiracy. if that's true, why did he say to mike pence, you're being too honest? why did he threaten mr. raffensperger with criminal prosecution if he didn't go along with the scheme? those aren't things that a lawyer says, and by the way, i think it's okay for you to threaten criminal prosecution for the secretary of state who said there is no fraud. it is just going to be a lot of issues if they go down that road, in terms of saying that they're relying on council. i really do think that those things that we're hearing now are -- they are defenses for the court of public opinion, not for a court. >> in your must listen to podcast, you interviewed judge michael luttig this week. one of the things that michael luttig, who's a conservative judge and is -- and in a way, de facto council of mike pence to not to throw away the election. but michael luttig suggested that trump's best defenses have already been tried in federal court as part of the january 6th investigation. do you think that's true? the privilege thing has already been litigated. the best avenues he has to manage a reasonable defensive already tried and failed. >> one of his points that i think is really relevant, and is so appropriate to raise right now, and i'm really glad that you're raising this. he was saying that in the context of a question to him about given your experience as a seasoned federal judge in the fourth circuit, do you think that it would be consistent with due process for any defendant, including donald trump to have a trial before the general election? remember, the rule of law requires people to have enough time to mount a defense, to look at discovery, to make motions. that's required by our rules. he said, absolutely. one of his points was that the issues that were raised, that have already been dealt with, executive privilege, attorney-client privilege, those are all things that the president has had an opportunity to litigate fully. and also to john lauro's point today, where he sent is it fair to rush this to trial? remember, the president has had all of the material from the january 6th committee, as we have. this isn't suddenly surprising him that he has been charged. if i were a judge, i would sort of listen to what luttig said. i would listen to the government about how much discovery is new to the defendant as opposed to the material that was already in possession. >> one last one, in terms of the appeals process, if for example, former president trump is convicted, which the appeals will look like? lawrence o'donnell said last night this could be a four -year-long struggle. >> appeals can take a long time. the one thing i would say is that we have actually in the trump cases, seen appellate courts act very quickly in connection with aileen cannon. we saw the 11th circuit act very quickly twice. we've seen that in the d c. circuit, which is the circuit that oversees where this trial will be, dealing with executive privilege and attorney-client privilege. there will be obviously they have to take enough time to understand the issues, et cetera. it is fair to say that while it might not be four years, but it could be a fair amount of time. by the way, it doesn't mean that if the judge sentences somebody to jail, that they would be out pending appeal. that's an issue that the district judge can decide. >> and that's an important thing to be decided. potentially down the road, not going to put the cart before the horse. andrew weissmann, i've 1000 things i want to talk to you about. thank you as always for your time. we have a lot this evening, including an interview with the top prosecutor in one of the states at the center of trump's 2020 elections schemes. michigan attorney general dana nessel. she is making some criminal indictments of her own. first, a state level plot to swing the 2020 election that you probably haven't heard of, but oh, man. it is wild. we'll bring 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about brand new indictments in one of the wildest attempts to overturn the 2020 election that we saw anywhere in this country. in early 2021, investigators who were working with the berry county michigan sheriff's departmen started making unannounced visits to offices of local election officials. they then allegedly used their roles with the sheriff's department to convince them to hand over their voting machines. the clerks said these investigators used scare tactics to get their way. around the same time, county clerks also started to get calls from a michigan state legislator named dare rendon. ms. rendon was saying that the house of representatives at the state level were doing an investigation, and that they needed the clerk's voting machines. the state's house wasn't doing an investigation. a group of nine trump allies were. they allegedly went around michigan, successfully convincing clerks from three different counties to hand over a total of five voting machines. they then allegedly took these machines to hotel rooms and to airbnbs, where they allegedly broke into the voting machines and ran what they believe to be forensic twists. forensic tests. they were looking for evidence that some have these voting machines might have thrown the election to biden. there are a lot of bonkers details in the story. i'll treat you to just a few. for instance, how this group of trump supporters told the clerks that they would only take their voting machines for a few days, but then those days turned into weeks, and the clerks started understandably freaking out, asking repeatedly, um, where are our voting machines? or how when that equipment was eventually returned it was handed off at malls and carpool drop-offs, which is just a totally normal way of conducting business. going up to the mall, dropping off a voting machine. even just the cast of characters involved in this alleged plot isn't to be believed. for instance, this guy, jeffrey lindberg, an alleged member of this plot, who you can see her, quote unquote, testing voting machines in michigan. that's the test. you can also see him in surveillance footage on his way to inspect put emotions in coffee county, georgia. now, this is interesting. in fact, five of the nine people allegedly involved in this plot and michigan were also allegedly involved in a similar plot in the state of georgia. that georgia plot is a key part of fulton county da fani willis ' investigation into trump's attempt to overturn the results of the 2020 election in her state. that is the plot in which trump attorneys lake sidney powell and rudy giuliani allegedly coordinated the repeated breaching of voting equipment in that state. lo and behold, a couple months later, five of the people involved in that georgia plot do this incredibly similar thing in michigan. what a coincidence. i should state that number none of those five individuals they were also involved in the alleged georgia plot, none of them have been indicted for any of this, or at least not yet. so far, only two members of this alleged michigan plot have been indicted. dare rendon, the now former state legislator that allegedly used her position to retain those voting machines and a man named matt deperno, the former republican candidate for attorney general in michigan. for the record, mr. deperno ran for office after allegedly playing a key role in this scheme. and while it was already in the news. as an election conspiracy pushing republican running for the highest law enforcement position in the state, deperno still managed to get 44% of the vote. because of the history that deperno i don't see the democratic attorney general, because of that, the case had to be handled by a special prosecutor. and that special prosecutors has been quite clearly very busy. at the top of the press release about yesterday's that special prosecutor wrote in bold, this process is still ongoing, and not over. so, they're very well might be more to come 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free the 16 electors poolside party, snakc provided, please bring drinks to share. proceeds will be used to support the legal defense fund for the 16 michigan electors fighting the politicized attacks from the evil a.g. dana nessel. michigan attorney general dana nessel indicted those 16 michiganders last month on felony charges for their roles in designating themselves to dually elected and qualified electors for the president in 2020 when they most certainly were not. they will appear in court next week. before that, pool party! to which one might imagine attorney general dana nessel is not invited. joining us now is michigan's top law enforcement official, attorney general dana nessel. thank you so much for being here. i'm not going to comment on the pool party, but i will ask you about the indictment that was just released. jack smith special counsel's indictment, in which michigan is a major focus. i think michigan appears 39 times in the indictment. and i'm sure you've read it. given the work you are doing on the fake electors in that plot, do you see overlap between what is in the indictment at the federal level, and what we're doing at the state level? >> absolutely. absolutely there's overlap. a lot of the information that was in the indictment was information, obviously, that was in the january 6th report. and that was already well known to us. there were a few things here and there, i think, that were newly discovered pieces of evidence that we didn't know about. but for the most part, we were operating under the same set of facts as the special prosecutor was. and to answer your question, no, i was not invited to the pool party. >> [laughter] >> but i will say this in my many years of being a prosecutor but also doing criminal defense work, one of the things that i generally advised my clients is don't call the prosecutor evil. it's not ever going to be favorable for you in your case. but that's what we've come to expect now. and that is just how criminal defendants talk about their cases. but it's unfortunate for the entire country, i think, as all of this plays out. >> it's a hot legal pro tip not to call the prosecutor evil. apparently, that's gone over their heads. let me ask about the voting machine indictment that came out yesterday. it doesn't seem like it's coincidence that some of the people who have not been charged but nonetheless we know to have been involved in the plot to seize voting machines and run forensic tests unlawfully on them, those people were also involved in the plot to do the same thing in the state of georgia. you think this all goes back to, including the michigan efforts, do you think this all goes back to trump and potentially rudy giuliani, who oversaw a lot of that election machine interference? >> well, clearly this is a coordinated effort that started at the very top, involved all these same actors that we have been hearing about, all the way throughout the course of these investigations. and it shouldn't surprise anyone that they had attorneys and many other individuals that were operating at the state levels as well. so, this is all coordinated. it truly is the definition of illegal conspiracy. i think that before the special prosecutor is done, whether it's federally, jack smith, or the special prosecutor who's working in michigan, i think we're going to see a lot more indictments generated. >> i have to ask on that level. we know on the state level, fani willis may be gearing up to defeat trump. and if in fact, the michigan plot does go all the way back to trump, does it for close the possibility that the special counsel in your state might also indict trump? >> well, i will say this. i'm not gonna foreclose any possibility. i don't know what the special prosecutor here has planned or doesn't have planned. i will say that one of the reasons why in the very beginning i initially referred our false slate of electors case to the federal government is because of jurisdictional related issues. in michigan, i, as attorney general have state wide authority. i can charge in any county. i can execute search warrants in any county in the state of michigan. but i am limited. it is much more difficult when you are talking about reaching actors that operated outside of michigan. that's true for most of the state a.g.s. that's why you rely on the federal government to do their job. their jurisdiction is the entire nation. >> i have to ask about this, because at the state level, states have been clear about the malfeasance that was occurring at the state level and standing in deference to the feds, to wait for that indictment. i sense that there has been some amount of frustration at the pace at which the feds have been working. and now we are running into the calendar for campaign season. what do you make of the timeline with which the doj has operated, in terms of issuing this indictment and completing, or at least, the initial stage of its investigation? >> i will say this, that it's inescapable that the vast majority of the evidence that we have seen in the indictment, i think it was work that was frankly done by the january 6th commission, and perhaps prior to the special prosecutor getting involved in any parts of that, and then running with what the j6 committee had already done. for me in michigan, i think it's very important that as we moved along, that there was a sense that when people had committed crimes, obvious open crimes, many of which these individuals had openly bragged about, there was some feeling of accountability. when you commit crimes, we prosecute those kind every day in state of michigan, you not be treated differently because your crimes were committed in behest of this scheme to have the person you are choosing reelected as president of united states. you're not any less culpable of these crimes because you did it for that purpose. that was one of the messages that i think needed to be sent. if you committed these crimes, you are just as guilty as anyone else who committed similar crimes. the only difference is, these crimes would've resulted in the overturning of a lawful election in which 5.5 million people voted in my state. >> i want to ask on that, really quick, about that question of accountability. there is some sense that at the federal level, there are options for trump to derail all of this should he become the nominee, should he become president again in 2024, and that once again the onus may return to the states in terms of holding people to account. is that something you think about as this all moves forward, that if all else fails on the federal level, it will be the states in the united states of america that hold trump and his allies to account? >> quite honestly, if we get to that point, or we have a situation where donald trump becomes president again, irrespective of all of these different indictments, and then puts a person like, for instance, a jeffrey clark in as his attorney general, we're going to have a whole lot of problems, much worse, to think about than whatever the accountability is or isn't for what occurred during the 2020 election. my hope is that people will be held accountable in these current prosecutions and that that is not gonna be a concern for us. >> michigan attorney general dana nessel. thank you for your time and thoughts. we'll be following everything you're doing. >> thanks for having me. >> when we come back, what one of the new federal criminal charges against donald trump owes to history, specifically, the rise of the ku klux klan. we're going to explain, coming up next. ♪ ♪ ♪ pops! ay son! ya got a little somethin' on yuh face. needed a quick shave. quick shave? respect the process! it ain't my dad's razor, dad, it's from gillettelabs. gillette...labs? gillette's ultimate shaving experience. this green bar releases trapped hairs from my face. gamechanga! while the flexdisc contours to it. lookin' smooth. 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most voters in those places are black and brown. at the heart of trump's alleged plot over turn the 2020 election is an unrelenting effort to disenfranchise black and brown voters specifically. and as it turns out, that is a felony. yesterday's special counsel smith charge trump under section 241 of the u.s. criminal code, the ku klux klan act, the kkk act. the act dates back to the 1870, when the klan was on the rise, harassing black people and preventing them from exercising the right to vote, including the right to have their votes counted. count four of this new indictment accuses trump of violating section 241 by conspiring to injure, oppress, threaten, and intimidate one or more persons in the free exercise and enjoyment of the right to vote, and have one's vote counted. joining us is maya wylie, civil rights attorney attorney, and president and ceo of leadership conference on civil and human rights. maya, no better person to talk to about this. i was very fired up about this yesterday, because to me it did not seem like a coincidence that there is a distinct racial project at the heart of the kkk act. and there seems to have been a distinct racial, that is to say racist, project at the heart of trump's efforts to disenfranchise votes. this was not a coincidence, they were black and brown votes he was trying to get discounted. >> look what donald trump had to do to try to steal the 2020 election from joe biden and kamala harris. he had to go to places where he had to try to find votes or get folks to say, oh, no those weren't the votes, we won't count or certify those. we have our own electors. but they were concentrated with people of color because trump was not going to win a lot of people of color. and that is why we have georgia. that's why we have detroit, which is prominently in the indictment. >> maricopa county. >> maricopa county, remember that in arizona he kept saying all of these aliens, these undocumented immigrants, which is another code word for people who are mexican and living in the state. so, this is something we have seen from trump and heard from trump. it is critically important to understand that frankly all the big lie, which is not even a new lie, it's an old lie, donald trump just kept pulling it out, dusting it off and using it for his own ends, was always to make it harder for black and brown people to vote, and people in indian country, because they were predictably democratic voters. and so, if you didn't have the numbers the way you could get them, make it harder for the brown folks and the black votes to vote. >> yeah, 92% of black voters in the 2020 election voted for joe biden. that's a political reality that trump was aware of, but also the trump project is centered on white grievance, which doesn't leave much room for people of color. it's a snake eating its own tail, to some degree. i wonder if there's something, if this can be talked about explicitly. i think it's in there, a statute, and it is generally depriving people of rights, generally depriving them of having their votes counted. but because of the history with this law, because of the reality of what trump is doing in terms of targeting communities of color, can we connect those two dots? and do you think that was the intention of special counsel smith, an easter egg of sorts sitting in that indictment? >> i can't speak for jack smith, but i will say that the legal defense fund, where i used to work back in the day, that thurgood marshall, first black supreme court justice, founded, filed this suit and called it out explicitly, starting in wayne county, starting in michigan, saying donald trump is actively trying to prevent black votes from counting. that was very explicit. they expanded it to philadelphia, to georgia, to other cities. that lawsuit is still moving forward in the courts, district court, federal court in washington, d.c., would not allow it to be thrown out. they have been explicit as a civil rights litigating organization, as my former organization is a member of leadership conference of civil and human rights, we are glad and grateful. but to your point, it's one of the things we've been trying to make very clear about the importance of this indictment. we have constitutional rights more perfected in this not-so-perfect union because we have fought for civil rights for black people, for mexicans, for people who are native american, for people who are asian, for all kinds of people who actually deserve to be protected in their rights to participate in our democracy, because they are lawfully allowed to vote. but it protects everyone. and this is the point about accountability in this indictment and calling out that this was about stealing voters voice. but also the fact that we have a statute that comes from the need to protect the voices of black people because they were being killed or beaten up for or threatened just because they were trying to go to the polls and vote or hold on to their electoral office. >> and i would say this is not the first time a trump ally has been, i think, charged, and in this case, convicted of disenfranchising black votes. in 2023, a trump supporter was found guilty of a scheme on twitter telling black voters to vote for hillary clinton by text in 2016, which of course you can't do. this person explicitly wanted to limit black turnout. this is a strategy employed, i'm not gonna say at the highest levels, although it seems like we have some evidence to that end, but it is part of the trump project to explicitly disenfranchise black voters. >> there are very fine people on both sides, alex. didn't you know that? and proud boys. >> yeah, stand back and stand by. yeah. they say the quiet part out loud. maya wiley, think you for your time and expertise, as always. when we come back, it was a tradition that started withdrawing washington, and is a tradition that almost ended with donald trump. we will have more on that, coming up next. baby: daddy. sinex. breathe. ahhhhhh! detect this: living with hiv, i learned i can stay undetectable with fewer medicines. that's why i switched to dovato. dovato is a complete hiv treatment for some adults. no other complete hiv pill uses fewer medicines to help keep you undetectable than dovato. detect this: most hiv pills contain 3 or 4 medicines. dovato is as effective with just 2. if you have hepatitis b, don't stop dovato without talking to your doctor. don't take dovato if you're allergic to its ingredients or taking dofetilide. this can cause serious or life-threatening side effects. if you have a rash or allergic reaction symptoms, stop dovato and get medical help right away. serious or life-threatening lactic acid buildup and liver problems can occur. tell your doctor if you have kidney or liver problems, or if you are pregnant, breastfeeding, or considering pregnancy. dovato may harm an unborn baby. most common side effects are headache, nausea, diarrhea, trouble sleeping, tiredness, and anxiety. detect this: i stay undetectable with fewer medicines. ask your doctor about switching to dovato. (ambience of room, crickets, scrolling content on phone) they're off from school, but not really home. images and videos. social media, fine-tuned to suck them in. and steal them away. alone you can't stop it. together we will. we have a plan. join us. ( ♪♪ ) the chase ink business premier card is made for sam who makes, everyday products, designed smarter. genius! like 2.5% cash back on purchases of $5,000 or more, so sam can make smart ideas, a brilliant reality! chase for business. make more of what's yours. >> the central point of special counsel jack smith and his latest indictment against donald trump, is the trump refused to cede power. that idea that presidents transfer of power peacefully or something we have basically taken for granted here in united states, perhaps because it has been customary for more than two centuries. it started with george washington, the first president of the united states. something i think everybody owes who set the president of voluntarily stepping down after two terms. and then john adams, who set the precedent of peacefully conceding and transferring power after losing his bid for reelection. so he was a one termer, and he stepped away from the mic. but for much of the world in the 18th century, that practice was uncommon. as peter baker writes in the new york times today, it was a fairly radical innovation in its day, an era when kings and emperors generally gave up power only upon natural death or at the point of a weapon. turning me now is douglas brinkley, presidential historian and professor of history at rice university. doug, thanks for being here. just to give us a bit of context about this moment we find ourselves in, how novel was it for a fledgling republic to say, you know what, people aren't gonna kill each other to gain power. we're gonna have a peaceful transition. take us in the wayback machine, if you could. >> george washington, everybody wanted him to serve a third term, because he was cohesive for the nation. he's what kept everybody glued together. really, his greatest achievement as president was probably abdicating power, stepping down, saying no, i'm going to be a citizen in virginia, going back to mount vernon, and allowing this democratic process to unravel. and nothing was a sure thing. he went to adams, to jefferson, madison, monroe, we can count them, and pretty soon it became the great tradition of free and fair elections in the united states and the fact that you didn't cling to power. you served the constitution. it's what made america such a special place, and united states presidential history the envy of other democracies around the world. >> when adams basically ceded power to jefferson, what it was was it considered weird at the time, or is it accepted because the president washington set, saying i know when enough is enough. >> it was weird. remember, john adams and thomas jefferson had a great dislike for each other. later in life, wanting to send a unifying message, they began an incredible correspondentce about the american revolution, then they kind of became friends. but cut to the election of 1800, it was brutal as it is now, of trump versus biden. the fact is that we just kept turning it over. we just kept turning it over. any time a group does election monitoring in the world today, that's what we tell countries, the key to democracy is, if you lost, you lost, admit it, and leave. otherwise, you are an authoritarian regime or you're running a dictatorship. the first president that has tried to be a dictator is donald j trump, and it's now trump versus the united states government, with jack smith's four felony charges this week. >> the other word for it maybe king. and in fact, the judge who is overseeing this case at trial has already issued a ruling in which he said presidents are not kings. and speaking of trump, sorry, speaking someone else, not trump, and plaintiff was trump, and the plaintive is not president, the presidents are not kings, and the plaintiff is not president. this is in his post presidency. she issues a ruling effectively calling trump a wannabe king. do you think that that, i mean, his behavior, yes, it's autocratic, in some shades. fascistic, but is it king like? it's almost a monarchical sense of the presidency that he has, that everything that he says about it and his power, which he sees as un-circumscribed and undiluted, seems to be monarchical in the way that king george probably thought he was the be all, end all of the british empire. >> precisely. i think of all when he was president, trump's great journey was too prudent to meet the royals. to him, that's the penny of world leadership. the problem is, it's not just the monarchy. it's a fact of putinization of trump. and remember all the moments of his admiring putin. he doesn't have to step down. the writer norman mailer used to say sometimes american politicians have castro envy, because they have to leave every so often, where castro could stay and stay. so, take trump as a combination of king and putinite and add to that the fact that he has been hawking snake oil forever in america, one of the worst being the trump university scam. and you have a recipe for disaster in the making. donald trump has no fidelity or loyalty to the u.s. constitution. it's only to himself. and if you get in his way, he will destroy you. there is a road of bones everywhere where anybody who does business with trump, or interacts with him, because at heart, he's anti-democratic and small d in spirit. >> well, doug, it feels like, and i'm not a historian, but we maybe in an inflection point where the concept of a peaceful transfer of power might be in jeopardy for the first time since john adams. that's where we are. >> and least vice president pence stood up and is standing up right now and he is going to be quite a menace for donald trump, because pence is speaking the truth. >> pence on the witness stand. we'll see you it when we see it. it double spring, thank you for your insight tonight. that is our show for this evening. now it's time for the last word with lawrence o'donnell. good evening, lawrence. >> last night at this hour, i gave andrew weissman his toughest question of the day, i think, which is, looking at this from a defense lawyer's perspective, how would you defend donald trump? he couldn't come up with anything. but we will give him a chance during this hour to react to what the trump defense lawyer said today about it. and more importantly tonight, we have speaker nancy pelosi joining us, and i'm not sure where this story would be

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