we are following the money. and republican candidates are getting ready to the debate stage, where the front-runner might not even show up. as if he 11th hour gets underway on this monday night. ♪ ♪ ♪ >> good evening once again. i am stephanie ruhle. donald j trump is already facing serious legal trouble on multiple fronts, but he may soon be fighting a whole new battle, as other criminal investigations move closer to the possible indictment phase. there are signs that special counsel jack smith and georgia prosecutor fani willis could be closing in on charges relating to efforts to overturn the 2020 election. today, trump posted this about smith, quote, i assume that an indictment will be coming out any day now. and while campaigning this weekend, he escalated his false claim, also known as a lie, and that any potential charges against him would be politically motivated. >> they waited two and a half, almost three years, so that they could bring them right in the middle of my presidential election because its election interference. it's a great badge of honor because i am being indicted for you. >> meanwhile, the classified documents case is moving forward. it has now been four days since that superseding indictment was filed. this morning, trump's newest codefendant, mar-a-lago property manager carlos de oliveira has had his first court appearance down in miami. nbc's garrett haake has all the details. >> reporter: indicted mar-a-lago employee carlos de oliveira three tonight on $100,000 bond, entering notably during a first hearing in federal court in miami. prosecutors say he sought to delete surveillance videos subpoenaed as part of the classified documents case. de oliveira allegedly telling another mar-a-lago staffer, quote, the boss wanted the video deleted the. mr. trump who now faces 40 separate counts and the case posted mar-a-lago tapes were not deleted. they were voluntarily handed over. i never told anybody to delete them. >> as for fulton county d.a., fani willis, her election interference investigation has survived donald trump's latest attempt to just make it go away. today, a judge flatly rejected trump's push to toss out the case and disqualify all. it's this weekend, she spoke out about the investigation and what her next steps could look like. >> i've made a commitment to the american people, but most importantly, the citizens of fulton county. we're gonna be making some big decisions regarding the election investigation. and i will do that before september 1st, 2023. and i'm gonna hold true that commitment. the work is accomplished. we've been working for two and a half years. we are ready to go. >> with that, let's get smarter with the help of our leadoff panel. beyoncé was in town this weekend. i had to stay with an all-star, all women panel to start the show off this evening. my good friend carol leonnig is here, pulitzer prize-winning investigative reporter with the washington post. former missouri senator and msnbc political analyst claire mccaskill. and tali farhadian weinstein, a former federal and state prosecutor in new york. she cleared for merrick garland and justice sandra o'connor. madam mccaskill, i turn to you first. trump's codefendants are facing, like, how do i say -- major, underline it, highlight highlighted, put your exclamation point, major charges in the documents case. how big is the legal threat for them and how hard do you think prosecutors are working to try to flip them against trump? >> this superseding indictment is pretty extraordinary because what we have in the very first time is we have clear evidence that jack smith has witnesses that tie the effort to delete security tapes, which by the way, would be illegal. just an effort to do that is illegal because they have been subpoenaed directly to donald trump. we have a 24 minute phone call with the property manager within a day of him getting the subpoena. subpoena. withingettwe then have nauta gon there to talk to the property manager. they are scouting that like some kind of bizarre crime novel going down always with flashlights. and then, the most important part, we have the property manager talking to somebody in the i.t. department, explaining to him, this is between us, but the boss wants the security tape deleted. this is the very first time, we wonder if there's any other witnesses that can give us direct evidence of donald trump and what he was doing and saying at the time these crimes were alleged to have been committed. but this is the first time we have a clear indictment with a direct witness that clearly has implicated donald trump absolute low directly. >> well, tali, at this point, it seems like donald trump's clearest or maybe best defense is to just keep delaying these things. and it's not actually working. his property manager somehow couldn't find himself a local lawyer. so, his arraignment has now been delayed until august 10th. to me, this seems crazy. am i wrong? >> you would think so, stephanie, except it happened with nauta as well that he had some trouble finding a local lawyer. and some delay was costly because of. that ultimately, there's just not that many moves left for delay. and the thing about de oliveira it is that the charges against him don't seem to implicate the need to see the classified documents, which is really what makes this case take some time. that is sort of the ingredient that leads to the most slow down. and he doesn't seem to need that. so, i don't expect him coming into this case will be catastrophic in terms of the delay that it's going to bring. there will be some, but it seems manageable to me. >> all right, carol, talk to us about this mar-a-lago i.t. manager, right? the other person in the indictment. what do you know about him? >> i think that this person is really critical, actually, steph, because this feels like the person that breaks, like, when they get the target letter, what we have learned based on looking at the timeline of everything jack smith did, everybody he question, and what he learned, according to what he's revealed in his bleeding so far, is that once yuscil taveras got this target letter, saying, you know, you are now the subject, a key subject of our investigation, you are in our crosshairs, that target letter basically communicates one of two things, either we think you could be a co-operator who hasn't cooperated yet, or we are giving you a final count down to tell your story before we charge you. and in this case, it seemed like both things apply. and that person, that i.t. person, appears to have revealed exactly the nature of the conversation with carlos. and that conversation was one of the, boss wants this material, this tape deleted. that he can point to carlos de oliveira telling him that is pretty powerful. and that will, as every mob scheme has been unveiled, as every single one is a roll up situation in which prosecutors put pressure on the small guy, who puts pressure on the medium sized guy, who then puts pressure on the next high-level guy, and finally to the boss. in this instance, we have the i.t. individual who is basically providing information that is very incriminating for a series of people above him. and it appears that the next person to potentially fall, and definitely the person they are pressuring to cooperate, is carlos de oliveira. >> claire, let's talk about how this whole process works in the election investigations. we are now waiting for both jack smith and fani willis. willis says she is not coordinating with his office. does that surprise? >> not really. i'm sure there has been some contact between their staffs. but this is now going to be, it is hard to say which case would come first. it appears to me that both jack smith and fani willis are going to indict at around the same times for crimes actually around the election fraud. and i am sure there will be some overlapping of witnesses, so at some point, there will have to be some cooperation. there might even be other defendants coming in because clearly, fani willis has indicated she has indicting more than one person. so, and there is a number of targets letters that have gone out in georgia to people like rudy giuliani and all the other cast of clowns. so, i do think that it is possible that the federal case, the documents case that we tried first, i think it's possible, sometimes state charges can go much more quickly than federal charges. and my experience, they usually do. so, in this instance, it would surprise me if fani willis gets the first crack, and actually convicts donald trump. >> but they both interviewed some of the same witnesses, tali. wouldn't the feds be interested in knowing what's happening in georgia? >> absolutely, steph. and i found that statement from fani willis about not knowing where what jack smith is up to, and not being able to pick each other out in a crowd, actually kind of concerning. and i say this having been a state and federal prosecutor. if you have two jurisdictions that are investigating and contemplating charges for the same incident, you don't want to end up in a situation where the defendants, who are common to the two cases, no in the entire universe of discovery and of evidence, and the two prosecutors only know about their own universes. so, i hope that at some point there is going to be some coordination and some sharing agreements and arrangements. and so, it's really not just about coordinating timing, it is as you say, coordinating on the substance, so that they don't give defendants an advantage that they themselves don't have. >> carol, what sticks out to you about fani willis's comments over the weekend? they are getting close to a decision on charging donald trump. >> you know, fani willis has not been shy about giving dates. you know, i've never seen a prosecutor say, hey, in the first three weeks of august, we will make our announcement. that is pretty specific. and i couldn't agree more, by the way, with what tali said about it being concerning, that there is the allegation by fani willis that there is no coordination or discussion between the two teams. i find that striking for a number of reasons. one, the feds usually do desperately want to go first. and they usually do have coordinations with other state investigators, either using their big federal shoulder to say hey, buddy, we are in line first. or coordinating in some way, not how you prosecute, but knowing what the information is that is at your call and making sure that your witnesses don't have any discrepancies about what they've said. that can really be problematic. but i think fani willis's been toiling at this, since basically february of 2021. and the department of justice did not pick up this ball at that time. they did not pick it up in 2021. they rebuffed doing so in february of 2020, when a senior department of justice leaders said, yes, we're not gonna look at these trump allies right now. we don't see a link between january 6th and the crime here. they rebuffed it again, and the fbi did in november of 2021. so, fani willis has a very good justification for wanting to go first. she's been toiling while the department of justice was trying to decide whether or not there was evidence of a crime here. the first time there was any prosecutor really digging into this issue was not until april of 2022. and so, that's a pretty significant distance that she has on them. she's lapped them, and just by basic rights, she has a reason to want to go ahead and proceed. >> claire, let's do a compare and contrast, just to stay on that -- fani willis in some instances feels like she's been giving us a play by play over the last few months, carole just said, in the first three weeks, i'm going to do x. over the weekend, i'm getting close to potential charges. meanwhile, jack smith, he wouldn't tell you what he ate for lunch yesterday. why is it, or does it, why would she share so much when he certainly doesn't? >> first of, what you have to understand the difference between the doj and the culture and state prosecutors offices. state prosecutors offices respond to 9-1-1 calls. they are dealing with the press day in, day out on violent crime. the vast majority of violent crimes in this country is handled by local state prosecutors, not by federal prosecutors. so, they are much more fast, pastor in terms of interacting with the press because they have to. people want to know what's going on when someone is murdered, or there is a shooting. so, i think she's been more open. i think the point that carroll made about how long she's been working at this, certainly comes down her's out of the ledger. the problem that we're gonna have, regardless how much they are talking to each other, whoever goes first, those witnesses are going to take the stand. and they are gonna give their testimony the next trial. all that testimony is available to the next prosecutor for possible cross-examination on any slipup, any discrepancy, any misstatement that might be made. so, it's really gonna be who fani willis if she does go first to make sure that her witnesses are very prepared, gone over the previous statements they've made, and have been comfortable on the stand so they don't get nervous to make a mistake that in fact jackets mid may have to own in the next trial. >> tali, what do you think? what do>> i agree with everytht claire said. and i would also add that state prosecutors are almost always elected. so, they are also more in the habit of selling themselves and interacting with the press to do that. so, that might explain some of the different approaches here. and, you know, we are talking a lot about who starts first, but it is, it seems to me that trump is almost sure to make a motion in the georgia case to remove that case to federal court. and he is trying to this and other places. i think it might have a better chance of success in georgia, but whether or not it succeeds, it could have the effect of slowing her down, such that if she is tied up in that litigation, it would make sense for the federal trial to have been first. so, i don't think it's just about who gets out of the gate. we would have to see how each of the litigations play out. clare, what do you think mark meadows is really doing right now? how does he fit into all of this? >> well, that's what i'm waiting for. that, what i want to see, is the witness list. for fani willis, and jack smith. i think chris christie, said the other day, that mark meadows was behaving like a federal witness, when he was declining to talk to anyone when he was talked along the street, by an nbc reporter. and, it is hard for me to believe, that mark meadows had not cooperated and given them what actually was going on. both with the fake electors, with trying to fraudulent overturn the georgia election, with everything trump was doing and saying and i think, mark meadows, frankly, mark meadows and mike pence are the ones who have the most information about the culpability of donald trump. and, if they were really threatened with potentially going to prison. especially mark meadows, i think, he was really vulnerable. and it's not going to surprise me, if he ends up being the star witness, at all. >> i just want to know, what does mark meadows spend his days doing? he spent, years as power five -- influential, republican in the public, and i want to know where he makes his money now and who he's spending his time with. carol leonnig, claire mccaskill, weinstein, unfortunately for you. clarios. does we're going to follow the money. there's a new legal defense fund for trump's allies and legal bills. and, the former presidents path has already spent millions of dollars to defend him and others this year alone. just more than halfway through the year. and, later, more bad news for ron desantis means the debate stage could make or break his campaign. robert gibbs, mike murphy, here, at the 11th hour just getting underway on the start of a big, big week. ah, these bills are crazy. she has no idea she's sitting on a goldmine. well she doesn't know that if she owns a life insurance policy of $100,000 or more she can sell all or part of it to coventry for cash. even a term policy. even a term policy? even a term policy! find out if you're sitting on a goldmine. call coventry direct today at the number on your screen, or visit coventrydirect.com. sleepovers just aren't what they used to be. a house full of screens? basically no hiccups? you guys have no idea how good you've got it. how old are you? like, 80? back in my day, it was scary stories and flashlights. we don't get scared. oh, really? mom can see your search history. that's what i thought. introducing the next generation 10g network. only from xfinity. bridgett is here. she has no clue that i'm here. she has no clue who's in the helmet. are you ready? -i'm ready! alright. xfinity rewards creates experiences big and small, >> donald trump's team is and once-in-a-lifetime. getting ready to launch a new way to help his allies have been caught up in his legal troubles. the new york times reports trump team is creating a legal defense fund to cover some of the legal bills involving his up lawyers and associates. this is on top of trump's pac that has reportedly spent at least $20 million on legal bills for trump and others this year. let's welcome pulitzer prize investigator reporter and tax expert david cay johnston, he's also distinguished visiting spectator at syracuse's college of law, and wrote three books on trump himself, and former missouri senator claire mccaskill. we would not let her leave, so she is sticking around. senator, you're also a former prosecutor. here is what i need you to help me understand, these trump allies, i'm guessing, these individuals are people that the prosecution would like to flip on trump. is it not a massive conflict of interest that he's basically, like, yo, yo, yo, buddies, i'm gonna pay your legal bills. we're talking about potentially just employees at his company who might not have a whole lot of free funds for giant legal bills. >> well, first of all, it's perfectly legal for a corporation to pay the legal bills for their employees. it's legal. it doesn't mean that it's not fraught with potential ethical problems, and it doesn't stink. we all remember cassidy hutchison. when she was represented by people who want it a certain outcome in the case, she actually shaded the truth in a deposition. and remember, she got her own lawyer and she came forward and said, hey, here's exactly what happened. so, you can be influenced if you have lawyers who care more about the guy who's paying their bill then what happens to you. not ethical for a lawyer to do that, but it happens. so i would, if i were ever in trouble, i would certainly want to be sure that my lawyer was only worried about me and not worried about the guy who potentially was facing the most criminal liability in the whole thing. >> david, if i were to give money to a politician, in theory, i would think, yeah, it's because i want them to get reelected, it's because i care about this campaign. do you think that the people who are donating to trump's pac, do you think they know or care that the money is just going to pay this guy's legal bills, a guy who touts himself superrich, and now his donors, small dollar and big, are paying his legal bills? >> no, i don't think they're worried about it one bit. and you know, the latest report from one of trump's arms shows that they spent $108,000 on milan's hair pressure. a little hard to connect that to the costs. it's listed, by the way, as a payment for political strategy. but you know, it wasn't that long ago that donald claim to be worth over ten billion dollars, which if he only earned a 5% annual return, which would mean it has an income over $500 million a year. and why would he need to raise money for his own or anyone else's legal defense if he had that kind of money? of course, he doesn't. [laughter] >> well, then, is there an argument to be made that this legal defense fund is the one time that trump is actually being straight with people about where their money is going? >> well, you could make that argument. let me suggest a new idea here. the newest defendant, carlos de oliveira, is someone who clearly is not a sophisticated person, not a wealthy person. donald is paying whatever lawyer is going to represent him in the case, at least so far. but you know, people could donate to a fun for him if he decides to turn states evidence. and just like you see gofundme campaigns, and he wouldn't have to rely on donald's lawyers, who as senator mccaskill pointed out, are not likely, despite the requirements of the professional code of ethics, to put the interests of this low level employee ahead of donald trump's interests. >> well, claire, what about saving face, right? trump loves to surround himself with 24 karat gold of awesomeness. doesn't it look cheap or chumpish that his own team is turning a legal defense fund for these guys? if he's such a baller, wouldn't he write the check himself? just doing this and creating this conflict of interest has to be annoying or upsetting to jack smith? >> listen, i adore you, but i gotta tell you, have you, have you followed donald trump? this guy don't want to pay anybody. he doesn't want to pay the people who worked on his buildings in new york. he doesn't want to pay anybody. he is all about just himself. he would rather grift and skate of his daughters. and by the way, jack smith has looked at this, whether or not he is committed fraud in some of the ways that he has solicited funds, talking about a big lie, and talking about how the election is stolen and whether or not there was fraudulent inducement to give him money. and you know, if you look at the list of things that this pac has paid for, i mean, he's right. melania trump won't even be seen with him. but his donors are paying for her hairstylist. that's crazy town. that's just crazy town. >> david, what do you think? claire is exactly right. donald trump, and it is, it's not being insulting, he has a long history of not paying. but does this make him appear so small, to be going to the public, a guy who touts himself so rich, you know, rolling in it, to say, hey, open up your checkbook, and write a check for my voice here? it makes him look -- >> well, one of the things i learned writing about inequality in america for the last 30 years is a lot of people can't distinguish between people who make a quarter million dollars a year and a quarter billion dollars a year. it's just the numbers are so big, they're meaningless to people. but i do think politically trump's vulnerable on this very point. why are you raising money like this? we thought you were worth ten billion dollars. you are supposed to be the modern midas, everything you touch turns to gold. and on the other hand, the low level employees in the mar-a-lago case, the documents case, which, remember, started out not so much as obstruction of justice as stealing national security documents and lying about the possession of them, these are not people who know where to find lawyers to represent them. they'd end up, you know, probably opening up the yellow pages. so, if there is a public interest here, it's in people finding a way to get lawyers for these low level people, who it's unlikely to have any idea that they were committing crimes, they were doing what they boss wanted. >> his boss, he's not a supreme leader. we all have to be responsible for our own actions, or perhaps donald trump would say, yeah, i'm so rich and i want to stay so rich, so i'm going to ask all you people to open your wallets, and alas, his donors do. claire mccaskill, i adore you as always, great to see you, david cay johnston, thank you for being here. when we come back, we are talking trump's 2024 rivals tiptoeing around attacking the one person they have to defeat, donald trump. so, my question, why are you even running if you're not going for the guy in front? we are going to get into it, when the 11th hour continues. ♪ ♪ ♪ >> the republicans just don't fight the way -- they're good people, but they don't fight the way they're supposed to fight. the others are dirty sick players, and the republicans are very high class. they've got to be a little bit lower class, i suspect. they sit back, and they say, they have other priorities, we have to look at other things. any republican that does an act on democrat fraud should be immediately primaried, and get out, out! >> in pennsylvania this weekend, donald trump made time to threaten members of his own political party, saying if they do not back him up aggressively, they should be primaried. well, recent polling indicates the republican voters have the former president's back in that thought. trump has a 37 point lead over his closest challenger. back with me tonight, robert gibbs, former obama campaign senior adviser and white house press secretary, and michael murphy, veteran republican strategist and co-director of the center for the political future at the university of southern california, both host the podcast hacks on tap. okay, this is what i desperately want to know, and michael, i ask you first. donald trump has this huge lead. but aside from chris christie, asa hutchison, and a little bit of will hurd, none of his rivals will even criticize him. so, if they won't, are any of these people even running? because he's the person they need to beat. >> right, but a couple things quickly, first, careful of these summer primary polls nationally. most of these polls don't mean anything until after the first contests, which will be the iowa caucus. right now, hillary clinton was beating barack obama in the national summit polls. the cake isn't baked. yet but you make a good point, they gotta beat them in iowa in new hampshire. if trump wins iowa new hampshire, he's the nominee. right now, they're saying with a ginger touch, because they don't want the tribal backlash it sounded like in the new york times, which is posing a republican primary, they're saying, look, he can't beat biden. time to move forward, which is the right thing, but they have to sharpen that attack. if he goes down like chris christie, who i'm thoroughly enjoying, you might do a little damage to trump. but in the modern republican primary, you do nothing to win yourself. so, i think you will see it start to notch up. and it will never be the direct assault that i think people emotionally want who don't like trump, but the argument that he is a loser, he's the one guy biden can beat, and he's got flaws, it's time to move on. that message will be sharpened, i believe. it has to be, for them to win iowa and new hampshire. >> robert, what do you think? >> well, mike and i have had this argument now for about a year and a half. and i think in the new york times polling, i'm winning that argument. look, mike is right about don't get too enamored with national pulling this far out. but we should understand, nobody, nobody in the history of primaries, has lost a race they were this far ahead in these polls. are there hurdles? yes, mike mentioned them. in 2016, donald trump didn't win iowa. he really, you know, iowa is a big test for him, it's a big test for anybody. but to be clear, donald trump was weakest coming out of the 2022 elections, and he's gotten stronger each and every day since then. his competitors are falling farther and farther behind. to your point, stephanie, i don't know, at some point somebody is going to have to decide they're going to take this nomination from donald trump. because right now, they're trying to out-trump trump, and that hasn't worked in 2016. and i doubt that it's going to work this year, either. >> and meanwhile, michael, when you talk about this first republican debate, trump's out there basically saying i'm going to watch it. i'm not going to show up. and i'm going to watch it so i can look at them all and figure out who i'm auditioning to be my vp. if they do -- if none of them come back and punch him between the eyes, he is making them look like absolute punks, and they're taking it. >> yeah, no, they have to show more edge. again, it's bad strategy in a republican primary to go for trump's throat. what the message is is is grandpa needs a gold watch entertainment, we can't let him go lose to joe biden. and that message does have some traction. in iowa and new hampshire, where the republican voters are starting to learn a lot more about the tim scotts and the ron desantis's and the other candidate, maybe doug burgum, those are on television, trump is not at 50%. and a lot of the private polling and seeing, he's got a third of the vote, and everybody knows it. so if your dog food that every dog has tasted, a one in three year meeting, you've got the most big share. but it's a dangerous time. still, there's gotta be a star coming out of the debate. my guess is trump will hold a rally at the same moment, and try to compete with the debate. but i'm not writing off that trump's ego will not let him let this go by. and if they're all afraid to take him on, and trump shows up, that is the bigger win for trump, because he does look a little chick and not being there. so, i'm not sure he will be there, but you're right, something has to happen as a debate. and if you're one of the candidates without a lot of money, like nikki haley, you really need something to happen, or you're going to wind up like scott walker did in 2016, starting in front. heck, he led iowa pulls in the start of the summer in 16 in the caucus, and in even make it a christmas. so, there are a lot of high stakes for these contenders to get in the race now. i agree with robert about that. >> robert, do you think trump believes he doesn't need to be on the debate stage, because he doesn't need to be shoulder to shoulder with second right candidates? or do you think he's afraid to be on equal footing, i. e., he only likes to do interviews in rooms filled with adoring trump fans, or speak at rallies that are packed with maga? >> well, i agree with mike that there's probably a part, probably a large part of trump 's ego that wants to be there, and wants to be on that stage and wants to be the center of that stage. i think though that he's smart enough to understand that right now, he's so far ahead, that he'd be a pincushion in this debate. so, why not skip this debate and let your next closest opponent, that quite frankly has had at best uneven time in this race in ron desantis, who continues to lose altitude from where he was six months ago, let him be the pincushion. let him catch all the arrows. because quite frankly, to get to trump, somebody's got to be in second place. and there's going to be a lot of people that are going to be in third or below try to jump ahead of ron desantis, trying to land that blow, trying to get that one or two viral lines that come out of this debate. i think trump is smart to skip this one. it's sort of he thinks of it as the minor leagues, let these guys go attack each other, and i'll be ready in october and beyond. i think it's a pretty smart strategy, and it's one that's probably going to get ron desantis a lot of action, whether he likes it or not. >> we're out of time. but i don't know about that pincushion. this, by the way, the way most of those candidates are behaving right now, it seems like if they were onstage with him, they would be french braiding's hair, not attacking him. maybe not chris christie. robert gibbs, michael murphy, great to see both of you what. when we come back, we're going to get very serious, russia launching a very deadly attack on president zelenskyy's hometown. that is no accident. we're going to look at where ukraine's counteroffensive stands, when the 11th hour continues. him. maybe not chris christie. robert gibbs, michael murphy, great to see both of you what. when we come back, we're going to get very serious, russia launching a very deadly attack on president zelenskyy's hometown. that is no accident. we're ♪ ♪ ♪ >> the kremlin is retaliating against ukraine, after a new wave of drone attacks in russia. nbc's richard engel has more. >> with two missiles launched ukraine tonight, russia destroyed much of an apartment building full of civilians, killing a ten year old girl and her mother and president zelenskyy's hometown. it's unclear if the strike, which ukrainians described as terrorism, was retribution, but it came just 24 hours after drones exploded in moscow for the third time in days, hitting high-rises in downtown and making president putin look weak and the capitol vulnerable. russia blamed ukraine. zelenskyy, while not claiming responsibility, gave his most direct admission yet of cross border strikes. >> [speaking in a non-english language] but >> gradually, the war is returning to russian territory, he said. and ukraine, russian troops are battling an intensifying ukraine offensive, and doing it without some of their most experienced troops. [sound of artillery] mercenaries from the wagner group are off the battlefield after their leader, yevgeny prigozhin, launched a short-lived mutiny. putin branded prigozhin, once a trusted date, a traitor. but then cut a deal with him. the potential reasons why are now becoming more clear. tonight, prigozhin posted that wagner troops are, for the moment, in belarus, awaiting orders. and video from belarus shows the mercenaries training special forces. poland, a nato ally across the border, is on high alert, just in case. >> with me now to discuss, retired four star u.s. army general barry mccaffrey, a decorated combat veteran of vietnam and a former battlefield commander in the persian gulf. general, talk to us about these drone strikes. are they symbolic, or are they a real threat? >> well, i think the war is on a vast scale. we're talking about 1000 kilometer front. the russians have run out of ideas, they've run out of leadership. they've now reverted to terrorism attacks. they're attacking essentially the green production facilities. they destroyed 60,000 tons of grain, went after president zelenskyy's hometown. none of this is even vaguely likely to change the course of the real struggle. and zelenskyy, i think, properly has said russia's no longer off limits. remember, moscow is only 310 miles from the ukrainian border. so, he's been hitting their capital and in broad daylight with very slow moving sort of fundamentally uncomplicated drones. it's a very dangerous moment. but i think the big problem, stephanie, that you and i need to talk about is the counter offensive is stalled. the ukrainians have committed their reserves, many of them, they've poured thousands of troops into the battle. the russians are fighting more effectively. they've used millions of minds. they're using drones, so, there is very little opportunity to achieve any kind of tactical surprise. and they're using massive artillery. we need to step up the fight and support ukraine with -- missiles, or deep strike operations. >> what are your thoughts on these missile strikes on presence lynskey's hometown? six people were killed there. and it seems like we have seen this tactic many, many times, and it always proves to be the deadliest for civilians. >> yeah, well, i think part of it is we've got to remember a lot of these cruise missiles being fired from russian air force bombers well back in russia. they used to be fire from over belarus. a lot of them are coming out of the black sea off of russian naval vessels. they're not very precise. they're using anti aircraft missiles for some of these attacks. so, i think they're basically aiming at population centers. but there's no pretension they're going after a strategic military strike. this is sheer terrorism, violation of the laws of war. and ukrainians have taken a tremendous pounding. 350 some odd cultural sites have been destroyed since the war started. as you mention, it's primarily been a tremendous lethal cost to civilian populations. >> you said in the past that ukraine must have major military success this summer. what happens if they don't? >> well, i think it's going to be a huge problem for russia also, we should underscore that. you know, if i had to bet on who is going to come out of the lone horse race and when, it's going to be ukraine. the russian economy is still in terrible safe. they're an international pariah. he's got tremendous dissension on the home front. hundreds of thousands of russian boys ran for their lives during the last mobilization. we've added finland and probably sweden to the nato lineup so that the area in which they have to be concerned as broad and enormously. putin is in trouble. and his allies are north korea, to a limited extent china, iran, and that pretty much sums it up. so, they're in trouble. but ukraine, politically one would argue, the european union, nato, the united states, as to maintain massive economic humanitarian and military support. over time, we tend to lose interest. and of course, you've got this massive threat of growing opposition from trump supporters to supporting the ukrainians. >> general, you always make us smarter on a very, very important topic that we must keep in focus. i'm really grateful you joined us tonight. >> good to be with you. >> when we come back, i'm just going to say, you must not go to sleep, you must not go to the bathroom, you must not get a drink, you must stay up for this one, a wave of support for dozens of special needs kids. and it wasn't just magic for those kids, it's a reminder, that by doing good, it's good for all, when the 11th hour continues. ♪ ♪ ♪ we're here today to set the record straight about dupuytren's contracture. surgery is not your only treatment option. people may think their contracture has to be severe to be treated, but it doesn't. >> the last thing before we go visit findahandspecialist.com today to get started. tonight, waves of strength. every day in the news, we hear about the worst of people, people looking out for themselves and serving only their self interest. but that is not the only thing that you make headlines. and it's certainly not the only thing we cover on this program. this weekend, i got to be part of something that epitomized what we talk about here all the time. if you need help, ask for it. but if you can give help, please give it. and the beach community that i live in gave the best of what we have to people who deserve more. i had the honor of participating in the fifth annual waves of strength serve therapy day on long beach island. the event gave more than 100 children with special needs a safe and therapeutic serving experience. most of the participants are unable to be in the ocean unsupervised. so, for many of the parents, this is the only time they can bring their kids to the beach. my little team was led by the spring beach serve school, but it wasn't just us, we had specially trained surf instructors from all over the jersey shore who empowered these amazing children to leave behind any physical and mental limitations and just ride the waves for a day. and that experience isn't just fun, it can have a profound impact. one father shared that after a past, event his non verbal child became verbal for an entire week after the serve therapy session. and for the first time, for their family. this day was pure magic. and i want you to know, it wasn't magic just for these children, but for all of us in the water, just experiencing for a day, a morning, the best of mother nature and humanity. if you would like more information on surf therapy at future events, you can visit waves strength. org. it is the perfect reminder. if you need help, ask for it. if you can give help, please give it. it is worth it. and on that note, i wish you a very good and safe monday night. for all of our colleagues across nbc news, thanks for staying up late with me. i'll see it tomorrow. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪

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