that we've together a narrative of what led to the insurrection. democratic congressman, and january six committee member jamie raskin said, quote, it will really blow the roof off the house. the committee is setting the bar high for what people can expect to come out of these hearings. especially, as more bombshell to revelations continue to leak about the conduct of the key gop figures. in the past week, audio recordings and text messages between republican members of congress, members of the trump administration, and other conservative firebrands have exposed the extent of the right-wing coordination to deny joe biden the presidency. they have also exposed disunity and rancor within the republican party in the days after the insurrection. that was most apparent in the comments made by house minority leader, kevin mccarthy. this happened just days after trump supporters breached the capitol. listen to this. >> let me be very clear to all of you. i am very clear to the president. he bears responsibilities for his words and actions. no ifs ands or buts. tension is too high. the country is too crazy. i do not want to look back and think we caused something or we missed something, and someone got hurt. i do not want to play -- >> for a fleeting second, kevin mccarthy had clarity. he gave some logical conclusions, thinking that the violence that he and hundreds of his colleagues had just experienced at the capitol. we all witnessed at. he linked to the violent rhetoric of a select group of members of his own party. quote, i don't want to paint politics with any that. and quote. that was his exact words. his statements had a short shelf life. he is back on good terms with the man he said bore responsibility for the violent insurrection at the capitol. he has done nothing to rain and the outlandish to behavior of members of his own pirated. one congressman faces calls for an ethics and investigation due to various things that would take us too much time to list right now. another one is marjorie taylor greene. enough said about that as well. the public has received a lot of new information in the 15 months since the insurrection. it has come from a wide variety of sources. it might still pale in comparison to the amount of information the committee has gathered. to date, they have met with more than 800 witnesses. they collected tens of thousands of documents. their work is continuing. on top of that, the justice department continues to pursue the prosecution. hundreds of people took part in the insurrection. yesterday, a second member of the far-right extremist group, oath keepers, entered a guilty plea for seditious conspiracy. brian all right is one of the 11 oath keepers charged with committing them -- with the peaceful transfer of power. i'm joined now by hugo lowell, congressional coverage of the january 6th happening. hugo, thank, you we finally have a date for the january six panel long awaited public hearing. it will be on june 9th. we are going to start then. you have a report of the committee is not done yet. it is still looking for the cooperation of more gop members. tell us about that. >> i think the recent revelations from mccarthy and from other members of congress being in touch with mark meadows, who was that then white house chief of staff, has put the committee into a new gear. they now want to capitalize on the public pressure on mccarthy, and these other house republicans. they think now is the time to call them in. once more, to see if they might cooperate with the investigation. it will be voluntary letters that are sent out to mccarthy. a number of other prominent trump defenders on capitol hill, including people like marjorie taylor greene, and andy biggs, and moe brooks, and people who are connected to mark meadows in the days leading up to january six. the final yes is not yet completed. i should say that can still change. the letters are expected to come next week, now. it is going to be a precursor to what may come next. if these members of congress refused to participate with the community and these letters, the next thing on the agenda maybe subpoenas. this is the final chance to do this. >> you have studied this very closely. you were reporting on it any day. is there any chance the people whose faces we just had on the screen are likely to voluntarily agreed to cooperate with the committee? >> i would say no. but, this is the calculus they now have to look at. this committee has amassed so much evidence. the reality is, a lot of their text messages, their detailed records, their emails, may and probably are in the communities procession. when all this evidence comes out and public hearings, and in the public report, they will have to think hard. do they want to let this narrative go out without any input from me? do i want to have some role in this so i can shake the final narrative of the committee in case i want to tell my side of the story? i think this is what they will have to grapple with. i do not think they will come forward voluntarily. probably, because some of these materials or incriminating, or damning for them. they have their choices to make in the days ahead. >> what do you think the committee members mean? they have all had some version of it. jamie raskin, obviously, used the term blow the roof off the house. they all have some version of what is going to happen in these public hearings. i am curious as to whether you think there is big material coming out, and even if there is whether or not it will have any impact on anybody in america? i do not know if there is anyone in america who does not have a view about what happened on january six 2020 and what is responsible for it. 2021, i am sorry. >> i think the information is going to be big. these text messages with sean hannity and mark meadows are just a slice of the evidence the committee has. i think a committee member put it to me, and under 10%, which is pretty significant. i think the story of the public hearing, the story that comes out, it will be trying to connect trump and the white house to the various boardrooms of the political offices. they were screaming in the weeks after the election all the way up to january six, down to the militia groups. the oath keepers, the proud boys who actually stormed, and the justice department actually believes they coordinated and assault with people around trump, and possibly even trump himself. we do not know with the story will be at the public hearing. that is the route they are going. they are going to show the coronation top-down. and then from bottom up, they're going from both directions to paint this picture of what was happening. as to whether anyone will pay attention to this, this is the problem of the community has had from the start. i think some of the country voted for trump. they will not be interested in hearing with the committee set. it does not fit their narrative. the other 50% who already dislike trump and think january six is a horrible reaction, we believe the committee. i think with the committee is trying to do is a, leave historical record for prosperity. the second thing they're trying to do is convince people in the middle who do not follow politics, or january six, and make them go wow, this was really bad. i might reconsider voting for trump if he is on the ballot in 2024. >> hugo, thanks for your great reporting. as always, hugo is a congressional -- reporter. and, now the co-host for the sisters in law podcast. you have had this discussion with other very smart legal minds, many times. let's take what hugo said at his word. there is a historical record. that is always important. you want to get to the bottom of the investigation and have a thick but that tells everyone what actually happened. beyond that, though, joyce, beat democracy itself is at stake right now. there are some people who believe the only way we can deal with this is to get the justice department more directly involved. they would go after some of the key players and hold them legally responsible. something that this committee, beyond the scope of the committee, should do. what is your take on? that >> we sit in this moment where there is a lot of uncertainty. that, i think, has created a mood in the country where we have bought into miss. we believe that the truth cannot persuade people who previously supported trump, or continue to support the republican party. i am not sure that is true. that is the challenge the committee faces. how do you become effective communicators in an era where there is a lot of disinformation floating around? i think we see a little bit of the method the committee may take with these checks that have now been selectively leaked. they have established that mark meadows and others in the republican leadership lied. they lied to the american people. they did not disclose their fears about violence, and risk to other members of congress. they did not say it to law enforcement authorities. you don't see kevin mccarthy pick up the phone and calling the capitol police or the fbi and saying that he is concerned about the risk of violence. i think this narrative, they lied, you can't trust them, it may be the prelude to these eight days of hearings. that is the committees opportunity. perhaps, they will have a different thing for each of those days. eight themes to the american people about what the truth is about the insurrection. and, what congress needs to do. remember, congress has charges to craft new laws to make sure we are stronger and it cannot happen again. it will evolve as we get those details. >> that might happen. it might be that they come up with enough ideas about what they can do, and what congress actually does have a short amount of time. although, if democrats lose control, kevin mccarthy has implied that this committee will not continue investigating what it is doing. it does not seem that a lot of republicans in congress are motivated to change any underlying laws that could help the election. once again, i ask you, is there a role for the justice department and the attorney general to be moving at a pace that is faster than what most people seem to think they are moving at? >> the attorney general has said that he is investigating at all levels, regardless of other people were present at the capitol on the day of the insurrection or not. and so, deede oj tea leaf readers have read that as an indication that he is willing to look all the way into the oval office. the speed of the investigation, ali, and we have talked about this before, is a little concerning. we saw very little, if any in defecation of progress during the first year of this administration. no witnesses protesting grand prix subpoenas. it is what you would've expected if they were subpoenaing witnesses into a criminal grand jury. that pace seems to have picked up since this year, since the 2022 anniversary of the insurrection. they are now making signs that there is activity at doj. i think people are never pleased with the speed of justice department investigations. something i reflect on's public approach in cases that are inherently messy. they are tough, no one is happy with you or if you are a prosecutor to get the case together. you are always judged, in hindsight, by the outcome. if you brush the case. if you brush the evidence. if you shoot at the king and miss, that is the metaphor prosecutors use. if you put together your case with too much haste and miss key evidence or steps, and you do not lose, that is the real miscarriage of justice. now we see a new plea in the case. one of the members has acknowledged that they were involved in a seditious conspiracy. they are cooperating with justice department prosecutors. whether this ultimately leads to a significant step in a significant place for doj to bring its next indictments in these cases, that might alter the mood. if that happens on the same timeline as progress of the january six committee is making, we could see accountability. there are a lot of ifs here. there are no guarantees. that is why i say it is a tough moment to live in. >> thank you as always for your great analysis. joyce vance is a former united states attorney from alabama, and an msnbc contributor. and the co-host of the sisters in law podcast. another day, another media company acquired by another billy near. elon musk's twitter takeover is different. he says he plans to let the company loose. all under the guise of free speech. except, that is not what is actually in jeopardy on the platform. retaliation over the ruble. russian gas cut off deliveries to poland and bulgaria for refusing to pay in russian currency. right after the break, we are on the ground with ukraine on an update on the war. i've been looking forward to this all week. tomorrow, margaret atwood joins us on the velshi banned book club. on her magnum opus, the handmaids tail. there is still plenty of time to send your comments, questions, and reactions to my story at fell dot com. this is velshi. this is velshi ur car insurance, so you only pay for what you need. 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for most of us, paying in rubles would be changing your dollars or your pounds into rubles. >> it means a lot more to the russians, obviously. it means that their strength of their economy, they see more currency coming to them in that form, and helps break the sanctions. the essential bank, for example, is sanctioned. there are some several hundred dollars worth of currency reserves that are frozen. the russians cannot get to them. the bottom line is, it is about the sanctions. that is what the european union does not want members to recede to this demand. that would break a contract that various countries have with the russian gas providers. they want to pay in euros or dollars. that is the way they are structured. i think the simple way of thinking about all of this is it is the beginning of another step in the russians trying to leverage their strongest industry. one of their strongest cards, the energy industry, against the european union. the european union is heavily dependent on russian gas. about 40% of it. there are several big countries like france, italy, and germany, they get a lot of their gas and their individual countries, 27 in the eu. yes, you are right, putin is trying to break them apart. he is trying to break the resolve of nato as well. the united states is trying to keep things together. here's what president biden had to say after the russians issued this decree, and decided to try and use energy as a weapon. take a listen. >> these actions prove that energy is not just a commodity. russia will not just meet other countries means, but it is a weapon to oppose those who get stand against their aggression. i want to be clear, we will not let russia intimidate or blackmail their way out of the sanctions. we will not allow them to use their oil and gas to avoid consequences for their aggression. >> the bottom line, of course, is that this impacts people on the street. gas prices, natural gas prices, gas at the pump, all these prices are going up. they are all subject to these global markets. uncertainty in these markets creates tension, pressure, and inevitably, creates prices rising. that is another card. that is another aspect of this that is important. yes, you can talk about currency and all kinds of other things, but the bottom line is that the russians are trying to use energy to gain some advantage. it is going to be something that consumers will pay attention to. we will see it at the pump. >> obviously, that is the big issue. you just showed us the reliance that these european countries have on russian gas. in a place like poland, they have the ability to get gas from other places. they have these liquefied natural gas imports ports. germany has zero of them. so, what is the likelihood of a united european response to embargoing russian oil or gas, one for some of these countries they do not have a viable option right now to get it from somewhere else? >> they are saying a number of things. they are saying they have reserves. they are saying there are other options that they are exploring. thank you esophagus coming. this is not a surprise. not just because of what is happening in ukraine. for the last number of years, they have been pushing europe to ease its dependence on fossil fuels from russia. this has been cheap for the europeans. it will help their economies flourish and do much better. and so, in a broad sense, in the long term, there is a push to get away from fossil fuels and move toward clean energy. this is the war that is having an unintended side effect of pushing europeans to do that. the polls, the bulgarian's who had their supplies cut off for example, said that they have enough storage to deal with this. the other thing is their contracts will end at the end of this year. they were facing this out anyway. this will be a tougher question. especially for germany, the biggest economy, they have been the ones who have been difficult to convince to go along with these energy embargoes. particularly, with oil for example. it is the next frontier. there is talk about an oil embargo. oil is a much, much bigger revenue producer for the russians. it is a much bigger commodity that the europeans are dependent on from the russians. that is a really dicey area that the eu is now taking steps to try and see what they can do to try and limit the flow of russian oil. there are billions, and billions of dollars flowing to russia from europe which is fueling the war, of course. that is what the russians have. you are in peons are trying to figure it a way to stop that. the united states definitely wants them to figure out a way to stop. at the u.s. has an embargo against coal, oil, and gas from europe. again, it is about trying to keep the allies, the alliance they have with nato, and the eu on the same page. when they have different interests on many issues. >> ron, it is always good to see you my friend. thank you for this. nbc correspondent ron allen in london for us. we will continue this discussion. joining me now is a member of ukraine's parliament. vasylenko, miss vasylenko she is a host of a party of legal hundred. a non governmental organization that provides assistance to ukraine service people and veterans. miss vasylenko, good to see you. thank you for being with us. i want to ask you about some of the latest news you've got. first of, all in the situations and ukraine. particularly, in mariupol. we are having a hard time getting information out of their. there is a last stand that is being made by members of the ukrainian military and some civilians in that azovstal steel plant there. vladimir putin said, they have control of the city. this is with conflicting reports of whether or not that is true. have you heard anything out of mariupol? >> at the moment, mariupol is still standing. you are absolutely right. it is getting hard to get information. it is extremely difficult. we know that the azovstal steel plant has been bombed. that has happened already, a couple of days ago. the hospital, which is located in that steel plant, was completely destroyed. that means civilians and military alike have been wounded. they are now unable to get basic medical care. as you can see, from mariupol, it is absolutely devastating. apart from the military you are seeing in the streets, there are still civilians trapped there living in the most horrendous conditions you can imagine. >> i have to ask you about this. one of the fears is that if the azov steel steel plant, if that last infill's in the russians to take control of mariupol, we have heard estimates from city councilors, and males, and non government organization that maybe 5000 people have been killed, that 10, 000, than 20,000. one of the dangers, unlike bucha or places like that, are if the russians remain in control of it we may not get the full story of how bad things became. >> if the russians gain control of it we will never know what's really happened in mariupol. we will be left with stories that people tell, and retail for generations and and. we will be unable to gather any true proof. russia is very good it's concealing that's proof. we know, already, they are station and mariupol. wherever they are occupying next, they are coming with crematoriums. that means they are willing to destroy any evidence of the killings of rapes, of tortures, that they have been committing. this is the kind of barbaric harm we are dealing with. this is nothing like the world has seen in decades. this is something that we need to exert maximum, unified efforts to stop. >> i want to ask you about these discussions that we just had with ron allen. about russia asking for poland and bulgaria to pay for gas in rubles. they say no, russia says we're switching off your gas. poland and bulgaria can actually deal with that. poland's in a fantastic position to get its gas elsewhere in the world. germany is not. italy has problems with this. the baltic states have made decisions that are positive for ukraine. but, for its citizens around europe in the world, they are paying more money at the gas pump because of this war. how do you keep everyone onside keeping the pressure on russia? >> while, about the gas, i mean, i hate to say that, lake look, we told you so, but ukraine has been pushing for the stream project to be an opened, and for the stream project to be shut. we were warning that if europe is not prepared to do it themselves than russia will do it for them. anytime they make themselves a dependent on russian gas, anytime they are vulnerable to russia, they say they will turn the top off, and this is exactly what we are seeing happen right now. the question is, how quickly will they find, countries like germany and so on, find alternative sources of energy? my bet is to develop the green energy. the second point is to negotiate with the other countries. they are doing this. some more successfully than others. >> miss vasylenko, thank you for your time today. let's give us let -- is a member of ukraine parliament and is joining us live from ukraine. one tennessee representative must have missed the class the day they covered fair intake for 51 in school. he is suggesting that we burn the books that he finds objectionable. literally. objectionable. literally. poise under pressure and poise in her pants. it takes poise. subject 1: st. jude affects all corners of the world for good. i mean if you think about organizations that affect the entire world, it's a short list. taking care of kids. kids as a priority. taking care of the families as a whole. subject 2: without donations, without people that care for st. jude and for the kids at st. jude, our max wouldn't be here. subject 1: you are making a difference, not just in a hospital but an entire world. this week in tennessee, the republican-led state house passed a bill that would require all public school librarians to submit a list of book titles for approval. a librarians have to submit the list through a state run commission which will decide if the books are appropriate for the school bookshelves. what happens to all the books deemed too controversial to read? republican jerry sexton, a state tennessee state representative, had an answer to that very question. >> let's say you take the books out of the library, what will you do with them? are you going to put them in the street? light them on fire? where are they going? >> i do not have a clue but i would burn them. >> i would burnham. burn the books. burning books that do not fix -- that do not fit your political narrative is reminiscent of the history's darkest times of ruthless on authoritarian regimes that whitewash history. taking a page, literally, from nazi germany's playbook. in 1993, students in german universities said five or two more than 25,000 books that were deemed quote on german. every day, the world in which we live a feels like a dystopia cooked up in a margaret atwood novel. her novel, the handmaids tale, which is what banned in schools and libraries across the nation show scenes of book burning. margaret atwood will join me tomorrow to discuss her widely banned, the handmaids teal, the dystopian it protests hailed in 1945 when she wrote it. -- you have time to dust off your copy, buy a new one, or catch a few episodes of the collude tv series by tomorrow morning. and you know we want to hear from you. email us your thoughts, questions, and comments for the author, margaret atwood, to my story at a velshi.com. this one is going to be great! do not miss it. coming up next, elon musk says his 44 billion dollar twitter purchase was made in the name of free speech. perhaps elon musk lost his copy of the constitution. free speech is not the issue here. taking the guard rails off of twitter could be catastrophic for democracy. i will explain. hi for democracy. for democracy. wow, first time? 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[whines] only pay for what you need. ♪liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty.♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ we believe there's an innovator in all of us. ♪ ♪ that's why we build technology that makes it possible for every business... and every person... to come to the table and do more incredible things. well, twitter will soon be under new management. i'm sure you have all heard by now. on monday, the social media giant agreed to be acquired by the tech mogul, elon musk. for about 44 billion dollars in cash. musk is currently the richest man in the world with a net worth of nearly 239 billion dollars, according to forbes. it is just a fraction, or he is just using a fraction of that for the steal. if the acquisition goes through, twitter will be added to musculature and of companies. this includes tesla, spacex, the brain implant stored up, neural link, and a tunnel construction firm called the boring company. in recent, years we have seen more companies get acquired by billionaires. they are their pet projects. media companies are now lakes professional sports franchises. every billionaire has to have an. unlike buying up a sports team this most recent deal could be catastrophic for democracy. elon musk wants to buy twitter. it is a private company. he claims he is a promoter of free speech. he believes there is too much censorship on twitter, as it is now. he tends to relax the platforms rules on content moderation. in a press police, he said free speech is the bedrock of a functioning democracy. twitter is the digital town square well matters vital to the future of humanity are debated. and quote. for a smart guy, elon musk is either missing the point or has lost his copy of the constitution. free speech, which i support, is guaranteed by the first amendment. it has nothing to do with twitters issues. if twitter were being censored by the government, that's where the issue of free speech, in which congress shall make no law prohibiting the free exercise there of, or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press, or of the rate of the people to piece of the assemble, and quote. would come in. that is not what this is. twitter is a private platform. a corporate entity. they are titled to make rules of its own for the safety enjoyment of its users. choices that has often not made well. elon musk gets a lot right. on this issue, he may be wrong. the government has done patently nothing to regulate speech on twitter, or any other social media platform. the constitution is intact, though democracy itself is not. thanks in large part to social media. let me say, i do think elon musk is a great thinker. he really has moved the needle on many important innovations in technology. he has done more to make electric calls viable reality than anyone else. his work in outer space is exemplary. he is trying to get us to mars for crying out loud. what he intends to do with twitter, while possibly well intentioned, is misguided. as a private company, a place he wants to be the real digital town square, some rules are in fact necessary. especially when bad actors can now spread falsehoods and incite violence with the velocity that did not exist before the advent of social media. what musk needs to think about is the fact that our society needs to rely on informed electorates, which have always been a problem for, us historically. social media is certainly not helping to achieve that goal. what twitter needs is to consider how it can remain being a farm for open dialogue. to do so, without contributing to the erosion of democracy. after a quick break, i have to leading experts on social media and the dangerous opposes. roger macclenny, and some man morale join me next. ma morale join me next. ♪i've been everywhere.♪ ♪♪ ♪ ♪ bonnie boon i'm calling you out. everybody be cool, alright? we've got bonnie right here on a video call. we don't take kindly to video calls. oh, in that case just tap to send a message. we don't take kindly to messages neither. in that case how 'bout a ringcentral phone call. we don't take kindly to no... would you can it eugene! let's just hear her out. ha ha ha, i've been needing a new horse. we've got ourselves a deal. ♪ ♪ ♪ ringcentral ♪ this is not the stallion i was imagining. what's it like having xfinity internet? it's beyond gig-speed fast. ♪ ringcentral ♪ so gaming with your niece, has never felt more intense. hey what does this button do? no, don't! we're talking supersonic wi-fi. three times the bandwidth and the power to connect hundreds of devices at once. that's powerful. couldn't said it better myself. you just did. unbeatable internet from xfinity. made to do anything so you can do anything. whoa. (heartbeats) introducing icy hot pro. with 2 max-strength pain relievers. ice works fast... to freeze your pain and your doubt. heat makes it last. so you'll never sit this one out. all right, let's get into elon new icy hot pro with pro-level contrast therapy. rise from pain. musk's twitter takeover with her old friend roger mcnamara, who is a early facebook and google investor. he is the writer of sucked, we came to facebook and testify. also, my friend cnn morale. author of the hype machine. how social media disrupts her economy, our health, and how we must adapt. you two friends are the smartest minds i go to. you do not always have the same perspective on this. we do not care about that because we love you have different ones. you both have a view here that may be that this whole conversation is getting mumbled. the idea of the free speech conversation getting marked up with different conversations, sedan, i will start with you. you quoted someone in where you said, if the free marketplace of ideas is to prevail, we must deal with harmful actors within the bounds of the law. their vitriol destroys participation. there is no perfect solution. let's dispense with the rhetoric and talk honestly about the trade-offs. i suspect you share that view. >> 100%. thank you for having me, ali. i think that is the point. obviously, if you do not moderate content to have misinformation problems. that has direct democracy -- for democracy, for the public health and covid misinformation, there are many implications. it has implications for war propaganda. you have an incitement of violence problem. we have seen it happen over social media with the capitol riot, with the plot to kidnap and kill the governor of michigan, and over facebook. the key point is the one you just raised. content moderation is essential to free speech. the reason for that is because of crowding out. if you have people that can bash, badger, and beat down others online, without moderation, the speech of minorities and those who do not have as loud a microphone is curtailed. that is the problem. >> there is a velocity issue. it is an algorithm issue. roger, you talk about this all the time. the people who put in free speech context are muddying the water here. twitter does not have a first amendment problem. no one has told twitter to do anything. although, in europe they are starting to come up with regulation that is causing social media companies to have to moderate some of their content. that is not what elon musk is doing. he hung his hat on something else here. i think you think it is the wrong thing. >> yes, ali, i think the fundamental problem here is that twitter is the place where politicians, and journalists, builds their brands and spread their messages. it has a disproportionate, and punches way above its weight. it is less than tenth the size of facebook or google. and yet, because that is where politicians are, because that is where journalists are, it gets much more attention. the problem, also, is that twitter has a business model that, like youtube or facebook or instagram, is based on amplifying the content that grabs our attention. sadly, the stuff that does best is has hate speech, disinformation, conspiracies. when you amplify that stuff it does precisely what's the dan just described. the key thing you want to understand is the way twitter works. the way it works is that harmful speech crowds out everything else. it does great harm to these communities that were just described. what is really unbelievable is they have never been able to make much money doing this. and so, the big excitement is that maybe elon musk will make twitter more successful than when it is. if it does not get rid of algorithms, if it does not become a real place where voices are treated equally, i think the whole thing is, as you say, another step down the road to destroying democracy. >> so, let's talk about how we solve this. there is no question about elon musk evil to by twitter. he comes up with the money, and he buys. it that is all there is to it. what does success actually look like? if elon musk were in this conversation, you would probably both agree with him that all four of us would say that free speech is a really important thing that should be protected in this country. ideas that are not the ones who agree with should be protected. what is the solution? what does select success look like for twitter in the word town square. >> from a democracy perspective, and business perspective, any successful twitter has to have content moderation. yes, the board would have been negligent to not accept this offer. he is essentially offering 44 times the price per share. that is an offer they cannot refuse. in terms of a business strategy, he has leveraged his tesla stock to buy this company. tesla lost 12% last week. that is almost a netflix in market cap. that is because of what tesla investors are thinking twitter will do. in terms of the business strategies. what is the business strategy. ? the deal was announced in the same week that europe passed the digital services act. that levees hefty fines for platforms that do not moderate content. in other words, if you do not moderate misinformation, or hate speech on twitter, you are going to pay 6% of revenue as a penalty to europe. if you do not comply, you will be banned from europe. that means there is no business strategy without content moderation. i think, in the end, what he will do is have certain high-profile free speech events. maybe bringing donald trump back to the platform. you cannot run a profitable twitter. you cannot have twitter that supports democracy without content moderation. it is impossible. >> so, roger, how do you square content moderation. how do you keep it away from censorship? how do you walk that line? how do you say, if you really want to hear the ideas of others, and you want platforms that give equal weight and space to ideas that otherwise don't get amplification, how do you do that without becoming a sensor? >> to be clear, i do not think that content moderation will work here. i do not think it works at the scale it does not on any of these social media platforms. the business model rewards the exact content you are trying to moderate. in that paradox, it cannot be resolved. i think the only way to do it is to force them to change the business model. our mutual friend, scott, and and why you, has proposed a subscription business model for twitter. i think that really would solve the problem. i do not think there is any way, with all due respect, i do not think there is any way the technology or the human power to do moderation is going to work at the scale and velocity these products moderate and work at. we have to be honest, the business model is the problem. if you want to fix this, if you want safe democracy, you have to do something about surveillance capitalism and algorithm application. >> we have a minute left. let me ask you this, you have also suggested to tears. and an moderated tear, and moderated here. how did that work? >> well, i think that twitter tried the subscription model. it did not work very well. that is not something they have not tried in the past. the problem is, i agree with roger. we do have many instances of advertising run businesses that are moderated successfully. at the scale of these types of companies, i also agree with roger that at the level of the algorithms, it needs to happen. dealing with algorithm application in a way that moderates content at scale is possible. subscription models don't work. if you are able to do some tort a two tiered system, i think that would be extremely difficult. you might give people choice about whether they want a moderated version or not. i do not think that is feasible in any way. everyone wants the same microphone. it is all part of the same conversation. i think we have to get a lot more serious about dealing with the transparency of these algorithms, and writing them such that they are capable of amplifying content that supports a healthy conversation, and moderating content that does not do that. i do think that is possible. i just don't think there have been any incentive to do it. >> i think we're both right about that. it is a point you brought me to me for years. thanks to both of you, the cofounder of elevation partners, and early facebook and google investor. a professor at mit, and both offers of important books on this topic. i suggest to read them. a quick note, you can hear the latest news and updates from your favorite msnbc host anytime, anywhere, on any device. all you need is the tune in afghan. but q r code on your screen will help you start listening right now. but does it for me, thanks for watching. catch you back here tomorrow morning from eight to 10 am eastern on velshi. remember, i have margaret atwood tomorrow. my great friend tiffany cross will begin right now. begin right now good morning everyone. welcome to the cross connection. let's say it is the epitome of mess around and find. out of the january six committee is set to begin public hearings on june 9th. members say they could blow the roof off the house. this is