Transcripts For MSNBC Deadline White House 20240708 : compar

mccarthy really think of the most extreme members of his own caucus. the audio reveals that mccarthy was worried that the rhetoric coming from the likes of matt gaetz would get democratic colleagues hurt or even killed. it reveals that the number two house republican, mr. steve scalise thought that comments by gates could be potentially illegal. here's a bit more from those tapes. take a listen to mccarthy saying, he can't put up with inflammatory rhetoric from his members. >> what did mo brooks say down at that rally, though? >> it's the kicking [ bleep ] and taking names thing is the one that i've seep the most from people. i didn't watch the speech, but that's a number of members said he heard that term. >> and louie said like we need to fight or something, right? didn't he say something a couple of days out that was horrendous? >> it was something like that. yes. it was incendiary. >> i mean, you got the maxine waters and all that stuff, too. so, i mean, i know the dems are in a very strong position right now to drive a lot of things and our members have to got to start paying attention to what they say, too and can't be saying that [ bleep ]. >> brooks apparently said today's the day american patriots start taking down names and kicking [ bleep ] which i would say to you is a step further than a kind of rhetorical takedown. >> it's like if you think the president deserves to be impeached -- >> it goes further than that which is impeachable is, quote, horrendous, and quote, incendiary. news of the tapes earned mccarthy an angry rebuke from one matt gaetz who called scalise and mccarthy weak men as well as these comments from fox news' tanning advocate tucker carlson. listen. >> can't they take their twitter accounts away, too? those are the tape recorded words of congressmen kevin mccarthy, a name who in private sounds like an msnbc contributor and unless conservatives get their act together right away, kevin mccarthy or some of the highly liberal allies is very likely to be speaker of the house since january and that would mean we have a republican congress led by a puppet of the democratic party. >> really? this morning's caucus meeting, house republicans by and large brushed off all of the dramatic and revelatory things we all heard on the tapes. axios, rank and file affirm their support for mccarthy by giving him a standing ovation when he defended his last comments which include calling comments from his own colleagues incendiary, horrendous and potentially illegal. it paints an incomplete picture of the call says he was speaking in hypotheticals and he never trashes his members publicly. i guess just privately. scalise also defended himself against gaetz's criticism arguing there were more death threats then, than there are now, i suppose. let's be clear on what is happening here, we all know. mckarthy is unlikely to pay a price for privately agreeing with liz cheney who is a political pariah inside her own party because you not only refused to do anything of the things he talked about doing on the tapes, he went on pursuing the office strategy instead of telling donald trump to resign he rehabilitated him and the rhetoric that he thought being get someone killed. it comes at a time when threats against members are still at an all-time high. mccarthy has promised to give two of those members their committee assignments after the democratic-led house stripped them of their assignments for encouraging violence against their fellow members. unlike the republican caucus whose members are ignoring the inconvenient truths, the january 6th committee sees the audio as yet another reason why kevin mccarthy should testify. committee chairman bennie thompson told nbc news that he may be called to come before the panel again. listen. >> do you want to hear from kevin mccarthy? >> yes. we've invited him to come earlier before the latest revelation that was reported on tapes. so in all probability, he will be issued another invitation to come just like some other members. >> if he does not respond to that invitation, the second invitation would you subpoena him at that point? >> that's a consideration for the committee to decide. >> that's where we begin today with some of our most favorite reporters and friend, jackie is here. congressional investigation for "the washington post" and tim miller is here, writer at large for the bull work. they are all, much to tucker carlson's chagrin msnbc contributors living inside his head. tell me what came to pass today on capitol hill. this is really the first week they're all back in light of these oddio tapes coming out which are whatever ends up happening to any of these folks in leadership, everyone has to live with what was said on these tapes which clearly any rational person understands to represent the true feelings of mckarthy and scalise about their own republican members. >> that's exactly right, nicole and house minority leader kevin mccarthy has been able to get away with papering over a lot of the sharp concerns that him and steve scalise shared about the former president and several of his own members in that phone call that jonathan martin and alex burns reported, but you know, despite papering over it again, it's something that a lot of the members appeared to accept. we caught them on their way out of the house gop conference meeting this morning and many of the members, most of them stayed on message said that they supported mccarthy, that he would remain speaker and that it was time to move on. the dust had settled and that media was, in fact, the ones to blame to focus on something that happened a year and a half ago that y this was where the conference was at the time and everyone moved on. there were two people who did express some anger throughout that meeting and that was marjorie taylor-greene and matt gaetz the two people who were called out by scalise and mccarthy in this tape. marjorie taylor greene asked steve scalise to apologize for his comments. he did not do so and matt gaetz was pretty angry, standing up after mccarthy had received a standing ovation from all of his members and said basically that, you know, the comments from mccarthy and scalise were unacceptable, but we'll see how much longer this continues to drag on and how many more tapes continue to play out, but right now we are seeing members just try to swep this all under the rug. although it is something that they'll continue to grapple with especially as the january 6th committee starts their public hearings in june and all eyes will once again be on january 6, 2021. >> they're either talking about mo brooks or louie. louie gohmert, i assume, when they say louie and they discuss the conduct of one of those two men as, quote, worse than what he did that was impeachable. i want to play more of what was clearly coming from law enforcement, from the fbi briefings mccarthy was bringing and let me play this where mccarthy thought he was living in. >> later after this call i'm going to get another briefing from the fbi, and it doesn't matter which side of the position you were. i respect it. i respect why you did what you did. but what we're saying on television when we say a member's name, when we incite or we -- in our hshths maybe we think we're not doing it, but if you go back last four years, everybody is doing something. this is not the moment to do it. the briefing that i'm getting you could incite something else. let's not put any member. i don't care who they are, republican or democrat or any person not even in congress. watch our words closely. i get these reports on a weekly basis. i've seen something i haven't seen before. so i'm asking all of you, i've called some of you personally, and i want you to know what i'm hearing. be careful. >> the threat environment included a de, domestic violence extremism with dhs that sat at this fulcrum grievances about election results and public house measures and he's right there, it was a dicey threat situation. the only member that he sanctions a rebuke for is liz cheney who is on the call with him who he purges from leadership i think within weeks of saying these things about how dangerous words could be. he then uses his microphone and his words to purge her. tell me what life is like for liz cheney in light of everyone knowing what she's now known for 15 months. she's on these calls. she's heard this kevin mccarthy. >> yeah. i mean, she's heard the evolution of mccarthy from how he was talking that day, how he was talking on those other calls. when he was talking about donald trump, and to how he's speaking now, and you know, she's probably frustrated. she's very frustrated. she was a leader in the republican party and she's now a pariah. she's been pushed out, like you said and purged from the party. this whole thing is really fascinating. you hear there that mccarthy is telling folks to watch what they say. they have not listened to him, right? for the past year and some change we have seen some of the republicans that he's even talking about matt gaetz on louie gohmert, mel brook, continue to say things about liz cheney and about other republicans, rhinos that they say, but also folks on the democratic side. folks not in congress, things that he talked about himself because he was so worried. he has not publicly castigated those people in any way, and i think what we're seeing as people basically forgive him after we heard what he said in that standing ovation is he's been working overtime to shore up and win over the right-wing of his party because in his mind he has his eyes set on one thing and that's the speakership if the republicans have the house in november, and so this proved that it worked all of the work that he's been doing and not talking about them in public badly, no matter what they said, bringing them into the fold and bringing folks like jim jordan and our ranking members and raising a lot of money for them for republicans and that is what we're seeing today is that plan worked and also as long as donald trump is on kevin mccarthy's side, there will not be consequences for him. the only person who has had consequences so far is liz chain. >> want to play for you something that adam kinzinger. martial law insurrection act, i want to read it for our viewers under your byline and your colleague josh dawsy and tom hamburger. "the washington post" has broken this story, three days after joe biden's inauguration marjorie taylor greene texted chief of staff mark meadow, some believe the only path for donald trump to change the outcome of the 2020 election to stay in power was for him to declare martial law. texts from greene brought to the fore republicans whrp publicly and privately for donald trump to use the military to strong arm his way past an electoral defeat. discussions involving the trump white house about using emergency powers have become an important and little-known part of the january 6th committee's investigation into the 2021 attack on the capitol. tell us more. >> yeah, nicole. so basically, in light of the marjorie taylor greene text that came out this week where she misspelled martial law, her own -- her own take on the marshal plan, we decided to really look at months' worth of records requests and court filings and text messages that have been released showing the committee's deep interest in the all of the ways these fringe figures and established figures, elected officials were trying to advocate for the president to strong arm his way into overturning his electoral defeat. in the court filings released just last friday something that didn't get enough attention was a proposal that we had previously reported on by phil waldron, and hadn't seen in its totality and it was sent directly via email to mark meadows who was seen as a conduit by members and the fringe figures like sydney powell, waldron, patrick burn to get these things in front of the president and the former president and waldron himself was trying to leverage these conspiracy theories to allow there to be an investigation into foreign interference using the treasury department and the office of national intelligence and again, all of the differing arms of the federal government to then create a rationale to seizing these voting machines. it's a bit more complicated than some of the other schemes less covered to overturn the results of the election, but just as dangerous and the committee's task is going to be figuring out just how far these proposals got. we know that the former president did entertain some of these people in the oval office and what expressed an openness and at times even agreed with some of these people about these plan, but did he ever actually consider them in all seriousness and did he line up any of these players that he had installed in really important positions in the last month of his government to actuallies execute some of these very concerning and dangerous plans. >> there's an incredible quote from judge michael ludig that says trump's emergency powers would have been unprecedented in all of american history. hard to say it more powerfully or chillingly than that. >> nicole, definitely, and michael ludig is someone who we might potentially hear from come june. he was someone who was advising former vice president pence during this time on constitutional matters and was weighing in and you know, conveying that he did not believe that john eastman's plans or any of the legal plan, quite frankly, were viable in any way to stop joe biden's electoral victory and overturn the results of the election and you know, he again, very -- we should clearly state he's a republican and we could potentially hear from him in the coming months lay out all of these different legal theories and splice through them about why they were not viable and just -- give some context on how dangerous they were. >> yeah. tim miller, it's an important point and what george ludig, i think, the prism through which i think people should think of him is in normal times he's a conservative judge with an unimpeachable -- and jackie makes a great point and only if you look at the text would you catch what she said about the marshal plan. this is what marjorie taylor greene texted mark meadows. this story just broke. marjorie taylor greene texts mark meadows this on january 17th, 11 days after the insurrection. >> in our private chat with only m the only way to save our republic is for trump to call marshal, m-a-r-s-h-a-l-l law and she thought martial law was name would after marshall. and extra judicial and constitutional conduct under deep consideration of the highest levels of the trump white house, tim. >> yeah. and i just want to -- on judge ludig, i want to drive home this point of just how conservative this man is. he was with scalia. he was a clerk for scalia when he was in the supreme court. this is not a moderate, never trumper like, you know, one of our friends, nicole. ludig in my opinion didn't go far enough. i've been reading jonathan martin's book that the revelation comes from and ludig was one that gave mitch mcconnell the cover to not purchase and not convict trump and he was the one that came up with this legal theory that you can't convict a president that's out of office and if they stalled long enough they can convict him and they were rung cover for trump with that legal theory and providing some cover for mcconnell, really, to make a political decision that benefited mcconnell. so this is a guy that's on the trump wing of the republican party, a very conservative judge and if he is out there talking about that this is an unprecedented danger to the republic, that needs to be taken very, very seriously because, you know, that means everybody is to the middle and everyone concerned about democracy in a bipartisan sense, obviously, should be extremely alarmed by that, as well and just really quick on the cheney question that you had, eugene and also in the martin book. the best friend of kevin mccarthy and jeff miller is quoted in the book after they run chain out. "f" that -- can't say any of those words on tv. i noted to highlight that to give you a sense for what cheney was dealing with. she was saying all of the exact same things that kevin mckarthy and steve scalise are saying on this tape and mitch mcconnell are saying. the only thing she did was stick with it when it became inconvenient. the politics are more important than the people who died at the capitol and the existential threat to our republic and all decided their careers were more important than that and they were bitter and mad and you can see that when you see them lash out at her in a personal way like jeff miller did in that book, and i just -- they shouldn't be allowed to get away with that, and when we public size what is happening. this is why the public conversations between january 6th or the 17th or whatever are important because they reveal that they all knew what liz cheney was doing was the right thing to do, and now they're all lashing out at her and punishing her and covering their tracks and lying about it because it's not politically convenient any longer. >> let me just add one more thing. first of all, you said something important about the real victims and i always want to bring it back to this. this is michael fanone reacting to what he heard on the mccarthy tapes. >> kevin mccarthys and mitch mcconnells of the world don't care about americans. they care about their political careers and they've repressed any, you know, ability to experience real, like, human emotion and that's unfortunate. the other thing of note in that conversation, kevin mccarthy was speaking to steve scalise. i would have liked to have seen steve scalise speak out a whole hell of a lot more after january 6th being that like myself, he's also a victim of political violence and again, gop leadership possession and we just didn't see that. >> tim, your reaction? >> he said it better than i could and as an actual victim i think it's important that he's listened to. remember, this is how despicable these people are, that the mccarthys of the world, they now are -- are running cover for the types of people that called, you know, officer fanone a crisis actor. that's what the margely taylor greenes of the world were doing and all of these people who were insulting and mocking the officers who were there to protect them and who were injured. some of them have later taken their own lives and those people are being degreated and insulted by fellow members of their caucus and a few weeks after all of that happened and the people who were supposed to be lead e the guy that wants to be the speaker of the house, kevin mccarthy decided that -- that those folks are okay. that he will apologize for them and welcome them with open arms into their caucus, but liz cheney is the one that needs to be expelled. it's sick. >> it is sick. eugene, i -- you know, we put the politics over -- our brains need to understand. we need to understand how mccarthy and scalise being possibly have done what they did days after being briefed by the fbi and viewing their own members as potentially life-threatening threats to other members of their caucus. so we put a frame of politics around it. are we sure that r the politics are so great to being lying hypocrites who were too weak to stand by their own words? are we sure? are democrats sure that the politics are not in our favor here? are democrats looking at these tapes and trying to make the case to the american public that not only are republicans in different law enforcement officers like michael fanone that they're too weak and hypocritical to lead? >> yeah. i think democrats have been hoping to use what happened on january 6th and hoping to use the revelations from these tapes like alex burns and jonathan mart to inmateriel the story to the american people and that's parts of what will happen in june by this committee and also individual democrats. the problem is and you talk to democrats behind the scenes, they don't see it breaking through. so how you get the american people, normal voters who are dealing with gas prices going up and who are still in the middle of a pandemic. how do you get them to care about the things that are happened in the past especially when there's not been any legal or political ramifications with the folks like they did on january 6th and before pushg the big lie and trying to overturn the will of the american people. i think the republican party at this point they seemed pretty sure that barreling ahead with their blinders on, with any kind of consequences for these folks for talking about people in this way and it would have been the script just days later and moving forward and continuing to stay on task focused on power and they think it will work out for them. the question is about the long term, right? it is about the long term health of party and one of the main parties in this country, and also to our democracy in this country. >> jackie, alemani, eugene, thank you very much for your reporting, as well. when we come back with u.s.-russia relations at arguably a low point, historically speaking, news today of a surprising diplomatic deal. russia has released trevor reed after more than two years of imprisonment. we'll speak to state department spokesman ned price about how the negotiations came together and when his family can hope to have him back home. plus, the war is still ongoing though russia, in an apparent sign of retaliation is cutting off the gas supply to two european nations and we'll discuss the implications of that move and later in the show, the lies and hypocrisy out of the republican party know no bottom, sending the signal to some observers that the gop be's singular focus is trying to sub jert democracy again in service of the 2024 election. all of those stories and more when "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. stay with us. continues after a quick break. stay with us ♪ and kenny on the koi ♪ ♪ and your truck's been demolished by the peterson boy ♪ ♪ yes -- ♪ wait, what was that? 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how much of this has to remain secret and how much can you share with us about how this came to pass? >> sure, nicole. what i can say is that every day here at this department ask throughout this government there is a flurry of activity to secure the release of americans that are detained unjustly against their will around the world. we've done that in cases in afghanistan, in burma, in venezuela and haiti and now as of today, russia. the release of trevor reed was a culmination of months and months of intense discussions with russian officials, but i should add, these were discussions about one thing and one thing only. the safe release of trevor reed. these were not broader negotiations or discussions about anything other than what we like to call hostage diplomacy. the person responsible for this on the part of the state department, his name is roger karstens. his title is the presidential envoy for hostage affairs and that's the key word, hostage. we are able to do things and talk about things with governments we otherwise wouldn't when it comes to securing the safe release of americans unjustly detained and today we are very fortunate that trevor is now with ambassador carstens on the way back to the united states where trevor will be reunited with his family. >> for all of the joy that trevor's family feels on these days, for the families of those not released, paul whalen's family and others who were not part of this deal, the pain is more acute usually. what can you tell us about paul whalen or the basketball player miss griner who is still detained in russia. is there anything of note with any of those negotiations? >> well, each case is unique and in each case we are working and doing everything we possibly can to secure a successful outcome. the pain of families separated from their lovered one, sometimes for years is unimaginable. we are often in contact with these families and we were in contact with paul whelan's family and we were in contact with brittany griner's network with the wnba and others and we're doing everything we can to see a successful outcome for both of these cases and in the case of brittany griner, support her to provide her what she needs including in terms of consular access. an officer was able to visit her in detention in moscow. we continue to call for access to americans who are held in pre-trial detention around the world, frankly. >> when we are calling for the russian to reless him and our business today, our job todd was not finished and we have a lot more work to do and we'll continue to do it. >> so trevor reed is with the u.s. embassy personnel. can you tell us how he's doing? >> he's in good spirits. as you might imagine, he was relieved to have this ordeal ask he was able to speak to his family before he boarded the flight. i know we've heard from his fleem and they, of course, are e lated and they are soon to be reunited with trevor and this is the outcome that we've worked for the entirety of the administration releasing americans that are unjustly detained and secretary of state blinken has had discussions with the family and president biden has met with them in person and spoken to them on the phone, as well. we are all elated about this outcome. i want to switch gears and ask you about your boss' trip to kyiv. the former adviser to zelenskyy described secretaries austin and blinken as heroes for taking the risk to take that trip. i wonder if you can or if in the secretaries' view there are tangible outbut thes that come from that trip other than the specificity with weapons and what to send and what they've been able to garner for ukraine from other european allies. >> a couple of things on that, first, the trip was pretty remarkable and secretary of state blinken and secretary austin as they were taking an 11-hour train ride, they passed through territory that the russians thought they would have been able to conquer within hours and barring that, days. they were able to take that train to arrive in kyiv because the russians have been prevented from achieving their goals. they have lost the battle of kyiv. secretary blinken remarked that the city looked like it was coming back to life and the streets and boulevards were full of pedestrian, but that is because the russians have been thwarted in achieving their near-term aims and they've been thwarted for a couple of reasons and determination and the grit and the bravery of the people and the security assistance that our partners around the worlds have provided and $3.8 billion since the start of the invasion and thanks the key point of discussion with president zelenskyy and his team. what more we can do, what we can continue to do now that the battle is shifting from urban centers and the west and the north to places like the south and the east and the donbas, and the type of equipment that our ukrainian partners need for this battle is different than what they would have needed and what they did need to win the battle of kyiv. there was a discussion of that and also a discussion of what we can continue to do to hold russia to account with our export control measures and with our financial sanctions and those were the key topics of discussions and precisely because those were the elements of the strategy and provide support and unprecedented levels of support to ukrainian partners just as we mount unprecedented and economic and financial pressure on russia and everyone who is backing this war effort on the part of the kremlin in ukraine. >> price, thank you for spending some time with us today and always grateful. we know how busy you are. thank you. ? happy to do it. >> a quick break for us. we will be right back. we will be right back. we need to reduce plastic waste in the environment. that's why at america's beverage companies, our bottles are made to be re-made. not all plastic is the same. we're carefully designing our bottles to be 100% recyclable, including the caps. they're collected and separated from other plastics, so they can be turned back into material that we use to make new bottles. that completes the circle and reduces plastic waste. please help us get every bottle back. way day, wayfair's biggest sale of the year is here. right now for two days only, april 27th and 28th, get the lowest prices on thousands of items for your home. shop outdoor furniture up to 65% off... rugs up to 80% off... and lighting up to 65% off... plus, get bonus savings with a wayfair credit card and free shipping on everything! shop way day deals now for two days only at wayfair.com. ♪ wayfair you've got just what i need ♪ in an apparent sign of retaliation today, russia has cut off all natural gas supplies to poland and bulgaria. that's a major escalation in its standoff at the eu, nato and global diplomatic efforts to support ukraine. what is more, this from "the new york times" today about what happens next. quote, president vladimir putin warn happened of further retaliation against adversaries telling legislators at a meeting in st. petersburg that he would release unspecified counter strikes against anyone who would create a strategic nature. cnbc senior intelligence analyst and ellen barkus senior intelience. director brennan, again, from the outside, two schools of thought that one, vladimir putin is most dangerous when he's cornered and losing and humiliated and, two, some other intelligence officials say such as his grip on his own country that they don't even think he's in a war and they think he's engaged in a military operation and there aren't clear objectives that they should achieve there. tell us how we should view putin's views in the context of weakness, strength and context in between. >> nicole, i think he's clearly reacting to the ongoing developments many of which have been setbacks to russia, so he's been adapting on the military battlefield in ukraine by consolidating and repositioning forces along the east and south of ukraine. because of the pummeling that the russian forces took and also now he's reacting to the strength of nato's support and particularly the ongoing supply of weapons and ammunition to the ukrainian forces and so therefore he's trying to put pressure and intimidate poland and bulgaria by cutting off natural gas. i can see him continuing to do these things because he realizes that his initial game plan has completely collapsed and therefore he has to adapt and react, and so it will be a combination of saber rattling and rhetorical flourishes. he's trying to threaten the west and also taking these types of steps to try to appeal to those sympathizers in europe and also in the united states, unfortunately, as a way to again, split the nato alliance and to weaken the resolve and to the determination of nato it continue to support ukraine. >> yeah. evelyn, the cutting off of natural gas and i want to read some details and it was labeled as gas blackmail by leaders in poland and bulgaria in the european commission and it was ostensibly about refusing to pay for the shipments in rubles against the russians need to deal only in rubles these days, but i want to ask you on the heels of sergey lavrov talking about a nuclear response and there is this gas blackmail by european allies. how do you assess russia right now? >> nicole, i think that they are growing increasingly desperate and the rhetorical flourishes and the oil embargo. they cut both ways. first of all, if you're going to cut off oil that means you're not going to get the revenue from oil and you will provide the opportunity for the europeans to more quickly wean themselves off of your energy. with regard to the saber rattling, let's not forget that america is a nuclear power, france and britain are nuclear powers. we have a nuclear umbrella that we extend to europe and asian ally, as well. the russians need to be reminded if they use nuclear weapons it will hurt russia, as well. so we can't let russia scarin and intimidate us, these statements from putin demonstrate his weakness. >> i want to ask about the news reports and they remain, i'm sure, by design, pretty murky here, but there have been some fires and explosions deep inside about 100, 200 miles from the border with ukraine inside russia. this is some reporting. explosions nearly 200 miles from the ukrainian border, a downed drone suggests ukraine is striking targets deeper inside russia. president zelenskyy said they were payback against launching the invasion and not the ukrainian military for the responsibility. director, what do you think is going? >> i do think -- i don't know who is responsible for those explosions, but clearly the ukrainians are going to do everything that they can in order to repulse these russian military incurrings inside ukraine. the devastations that the russians have done in the beautiful country is something that has encouraged the ukrainian people and the military forces to use all of their might, all of their capabilities to strike back against russia, and i wouldn't be surprised if there are sympathizers inside of russia proper, whether they are ukrainian nationals or even russians who are trying to demonstrate their opposition to this very, very needless and tragic war. and so therefore, i'm not surprised that we've seen some things. i wouldn't be surprised if we'll see a step-up in that type of activity because i do think there are a lot of pockets of opposition and resistance including inside of russia again by ukrainian nationals or russian nationals who will try to demonstrate and signal their strong, strong opposition to putin's war. >> yeah. evelyn, if you go back to some of putin's words to purge, one is that it's harder for us to see from where you sit and you and director brennan have unique insights and knowledge and sources in the region, and i think to the outside world who may have relied on the western correspondents who were still in moscow, that is part of what we don't see. what is your understanding of what's happening inside russia? >> yeah. i mean, it sounds like there is a big bulk of russians who consume russian television, and frankly, don't want to know the truth. they may, in the back of their minds in the soviet days have mistrusted the government and realized they were fed a lie and that's the bulk of the russian people and over time increasingly, certainly in the cities where economic conditions mean that they're going to be suffering, increasingly and the fact that many russian men are not going to return. i mean, it looks like they're not sending the bodies back so these people will be disappeared including the krus of the moskva, the ship that was sunk by the ukrainians and that will be increased unrest there. one other point that they would do on the ukrainian attacks on the russian fuel depots and other targets of that nature is that it's very strategic. the ukrainians are gearing up for a large-scale combat with the russians, and they're moving into their back area. the logistics of the russian military to take out any fuel and any other support -- you know, resources that they can. so it's also very smart militarily speaking. >> i want you to stay and ask you where you see the military battle that you've seen at this point with the weapons with the visit by the defense secretary and the secretary of state over the weekend and more announcements of more weapons going into ukraine in the wake of that visit. a quick break for us. we will be right back opinion a quick break for us we will be right back opinio ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ we believe there's an innovator in all of us. ♪ ♪ that's why we build technology that makes it possible for every business... and every person... to come to the table and do more incredible things. this is vuity™, an fda-approved eye drop that improves age-related blurry near vision. and every person... so, wait. i don't always have to wear reading glasses? see for yourself. use vuity™ with caution in night driving and hazardous activities in poor light. also, if your vision is not clear, do not drive or use machinery. contact your doctor immediately if you have sudden vision loss. most common side-effects are headache and eye redness. ask your eye doctor about vuity™. and see for yourself. learn how to sign up and save at myvuitypoints.com motrin works fast to stop pain where it starts. like those nagging headaches. uncomfortable period pains. and disruptive muscle aches. you can count on fast, effective relief with motrin. mr. putin can do the right thing right now by ending the war. moving his forces out of ukraine, sitting down in good faith with president zelenskyy and coming up with a negotiated settlement. clearly, he doesn't appear interested in doing that because they're still fighting in the donbas and in the south. short of that, raising the specter of nuclear confrontation does nothing for the peace and security of the region, much less the people of ukraine. >> we're back with director john brennan and evelyn farkas. this has been in the news in every briefing, in every interview i've done either from ukraine or from washington this week, the specter of nuclear sabre rattling is what the defense secretary called it. how should -- how should -- right now today i know this could change. but from russia's end what is the strategic value of them threatening to use nuclear weapons, director brennan? >> well, again, as evelyn said earlier, it's designed to intimidate and threaten nato countries. i don't think we should be dismissive of that nuclear sabre rattling. but i do believe that vladimir putin is still hoping to win this battle, this war in ukraine conventionally and not to escalate to tactical nuclear or chemical weapons. to do so would invite a nato response. president biden has already said there would be serious consequences. so, therefore, with the very poor performance of his military forces in ukraine, i don't think he wants to pick a battle with nato forces which are qualitatively heads and shoulders above russian forces. therefore, i think he will continue to use these various messages and signals to try to raise the specter of a nuclear confrontation. but at least at this point i think he'll concentrate as john kirby said on the donbas and southern ukraine. he'll take strikes against the weapon supply lines coming into ukraine from the nato forces, into western ukraine. i can see him taking additional strikes there. but again i don't think at this point he's going to opt for that nuclear option because to do so would signal his real concern that he is going to lose this war and, therefore, will reach for these desperate, desperate measures. evelyn, the five strikes on ukrainian rail lines and rail stations came one day after the u.s. secretaries of defense and state were there. do you think they were meant to say we could have done grave harm to america? why do you think that was? >> yeah, nicolle, it is likely that they were intended for us to look at those strikes and think, oh, russia could have struck our secretary of defense and our secretary of state. but again, elaborating or just adding to what director brennan said, vladimir putin is not likely to use nuclear weapons or likely to kill our secretaries of defense and state because he does not want nato. he doesn't want a war with the united states or nato directly. he understands we have an indirect war and it's a war that he picked, we did not pick this war. but he does not want a direct war with the united states. if he, god forbid, assassinated our, again, two cabinet officials or went to chemical or nuclear weapons, then he would be looking at a situation where we very likely would use u.s. military forces and u.s. military personnel, which doesn't necessarily have to include boots on the ground but could certainly change the military calculus for vladimir putin's russian military in a heartbeat. >> john brennan, evelyn farkas, thank you for spending time with us today. next for us, how the republican party and republican leadership have capitulated to the extremists in their own ranks, allowing lies and threats of violence to spread. more right after this. stay with us. spread. more rhtig after this. stay with us ♪ ♪ bonnie boon i'm calling you out. everybody be cool, alright? we've got bonnie right here on a video call. we don't take kindly to video calls. oh, in that case just tap to send a message. we don't take kindly to messages neither. in that case how 'bout a ringcentral phone call. we don't take kindly to no... would you can it eugene! let's just hear her out. ha ha ha, i've been needing a new horse. we've got ourselves a deal. ♪ ♪ ♪ ringcentral ♪ this is not the stallion i was imagining. i experienced a group of individuals that were trying to kill me to accomplish, you know, their goal. i experienced the most brutal, savage, hand-to-hand combat of my entire life. >> never forget, right? hi again, everyone. it's 5:00 in new york. for the law enforcement officers who lived through and survived january 6th, that's how they describe it, and we should never forget. it was brutal. it was savage, hand-to-hand combat. it's a reminder of just how bad, how brutal the attack on the capitol was, as trump supporters have been standing trial for their actions on that day. take, for example, the case of former nypd officer thomas webster, seen in this video, which was played during opening arguments of his trial yesterday. he's beating an officer with a flag pole, pushing through a barricade and then tackling the officer. webster is the fourth capitol defendant to face trial. the three who have come before him were all found guilty on all counts that they were charged with. today officer noah rathbun said webster grabbed his helmet and started pulling him forward. he was not able to breathe. he continued saying i struggled to get him off me. i felt like i was being kicked. images like that of a former police officer going after active duty police officers with a flag pole. of officer michael fanone being beaten and tased, ultimately suffering a heart attack in what was described as medieval combat experienced by officers defending the u.s. capitol and everyone inside it. it was fresh in minority leader kevin mccarthy's minding as he spoke candidly and openly to his closest advisers and allies in republican leadership in four days after. he voiced concern about the threat that members of his own caucus posed. here he is from that audio obtained by "new york times" reporters jonathan martin and alex burns, describing congressman matt gaetz calling out liz cheney and people he felt were anti-trump by name. listen. >> he's putting people in jeopardy. and he doesn't need to be doing this. we saw what people would do in the capitol, you know, and these people came prepared with rope, with everything else. >> everything else. mccarthy acknowledges the danger lawmakers' fiery rhetoric posed amid the volatile state of the country. listen to that. >> tension is too high. the country is too crazy. i do not want to look back and think we caused something or we missed something and someone got hurt. i don't want to play politics with any of that. >> until i do, just that. "new york times" reports mr. mccarthy's remarks represent one of the starkest acknowledgements from a republican leader that the party's rank and file lawmakers played a role in stoking violence on january 6, 2021, and posed a threat in the days after the capitol attack. publicly, of course, there was none of this, no acknowledgement and the kevin mccarthy you heard on those tapes is unrecognizable now. in the 15 months since january 6th, he has cozied up to the crazies, in his words, the extremists of his own party as he pursues the speakership and has continued to allow his party to spread the lies that provoked the violence on january 6th in the first place. that's where we start the hour. david jolly is here, national chairman of the serve america movement, also joining us msnbc legal analyst joyce vance, former u.s. attorney, now a law professor at the university of alabama. and nbc news justice reporter ryan riley is here. do we have one more person joining us? in a moment we'll have congressman madeleine dean. he's not there yet. i apologize to all three of you in advance. we may interrupt when she pops up because it's a chaotic day up there. ryan, i want you to take me inside this trial that is under way. and again, the victims of the violence. one of the victims was obviously america's democracy, but the real victims of the violence were the capitol police officers. tell me about today's testimony. >> yeah, the real thing that stuck out to me about this officer's testimony today is that that wasn't the worst attack he had that day. he actually talked about how after this initial attack, he went into the rotunda and ended up trying to push some of these rioters outside. he got his hand cut open and had to go get a bunch of stitches so that was what he was focused on after this initial attack that he suffered through where he was being joked wasn't even the worst of what he went through that day. but it was very calm, sort of stoic testimony from this officer. he frankly said it's something that he doesn't like to think a lot about. january 6th is something he tries to put out of his mind. when you watch that body cam video, you feel like you're inside his perspective, inside his head for a moment as you see this angry mob yelling at officers and really just trying to take over the capitol building. he got tackled in this incident. >> david jolly, i want to play something that congressman adam kinzinger said to garrett haake. >> what do you make of the fact that he seems to be getting such blowback from some in the conference for saying what sounded like imminently sensible things to other people? >> i think it goes to show how lost the republican party really is right now. i mean, you know, on the one hand he's probably more concerned about the far right being upset that in essence the week after january 6th he was concerned. we have tried to reinvent history here. we've tried to reinvent the truth. the day after january 6th, everybody was -- at least most people were quiet. they were trying to figure out where this was going. they were concerned and that's all changed. again, it goes to show not just what time does but what power does. power is an attractive thing. and unfortunately that's where we're at. >> so something that just -- i've watched that interview a couple of times and something that stays with me, we've tried to reinvent history, we've tried to reinvent the truth. if there were a new slogan for the republican party, that would be it, david. >> it would be. and i think your analysis, adam's comments are exactly right, because i think we too often almost give kevin mccarthy a pass, that his behavior is simply out of trying to stay close to donald trump and not do harm to his own political fortunes. that's true, but there's something much graver about kevin mccarthy's behavior. consider the imagery we just saw, the violence on the capitol in realtime that week. he knew what hung in the balance, he knew the threat to our democracy but he was still willing to lie and cover up and do whatever he needed to do for his own political fortunes. it is more than just kevin mccarthy trying to stay close to donald trump. kevin mccarthy suffers from the same political narcissism, the same vanity, the same ego, the same conniving personality and manipulation that donald trump does. they are the same political animals. we almost weaken kevin mccarthy by saying he just wants to be close to donald trump for his own political fortunes. that's not it. kevin ccarthy suffers from the same deficiencies of leadership that donald trump does. we have to start to look at kevin through that lens because this was not just a normal tour at the capitol. we've witnessed the violence. we know of the death. and in an environment where there was violence and death and the integrity of our republic hung in the balance, kevin mccarthy was worried about one thing, kevin mccarthy. that is donald trump. >> i want to bring in congresswoman madeleine dean of pennsylvania, the member of the judiciary committee. someone we have turned to since the hours after the january sexth attack and follow up with you on something david jolly is saying. don't we also -- in one of the black boxes with donald trump has always been his intent. it was what stymied the robert mueller investigation. it is what perhaps got him off of being convicted in his two impeachment trials. but what you have with kevin mccarthy is we know his intent. we know his knowledge ahead of time, of the lethal danger that his own members posed to other members. so what he does is what trump does with the knowledge of the danger it poses. >> well, it's good to be with both of you, thank you, nicolle. i'm standing in the halls where you remember on january 6th rioters, insurrectionists incited by the former president came to attack and kill anybody who got in their way, including mr. mccarthy. mr. mccarthy suffers from a lack of trust within his own conference, certainly a lack of trust in this congress. and leaders who truly lead have to have that quality of trust. mr. mccarthy can't be trusted to tell the truth in two different places in two different minutes. and so you can see his conference is flailing. there's blood in the water. i have said for months i don't think he will remain the leader. if they should somehow take the majority, which i don't believe they will. but he's -- >> i think we lost the congresswoman. i want to bring you in, joyce vance, and put the same kind of question to you about whether there's something about kevin mccarthy and steve scalise admitting on tape in the one instance what one of the members does is worse than what trump did which they view at least in the call as impeachable and describe their own member's conduct as going farther than what was impeachable in the case of donald trump. steve scalise saying he thought matt gaetz' conduct was illegal. what does that knowledge and speaking freely about legality say to people in the justice department looking at the events of january 6th. >> well, i hope merrick garland is paying attention. you know, teasing aside, nicolle, the criminality issue is obviously a serious one. there's been a lot of speculation whether people crossed over into criminality and that's a decision only the justice department can make. but the fact so many people on the republican side of the aisle thought that was a risk really tells us all we need to know about their subsequent decision to just give everyone a pass for this conduct. you and i sat together during the second impeachment. i remember, and i know you remember, adam schiff's really remarkable words where he implored the senators. he said you must convict. if you do not convict, trump will do this again. and what's become increasingly clear this week is it's not just trump who will do it again, it's not just trump who got off, it's people like kevin mccarthy, the would be speaker of the house, who will permit people to engage in conduct that's dangerous for other members and dangerous for democracy in the name of his own power. that's the opportunity that the senate missed when it failed to convict an impeachment. that's the future of this country if republican control returns this fall. january 6th is not over. and so the justice department obviously needs to ask with all deliberate speed to indict people who are appropriately indicted. much of the responsibility is ultimately political responsibility and that's going to be up to the voters because it's clear that one thing the republican leadership on the hill won't do is hold its own folks accountable. >> congresswoman madeleine dean is back. i know you're juggling a lot and we appreciate you taking the time to talk to us on what we know is a busy day. you made the point and joyce has made the point about this ultimately being a question for voters. i worked in the white house in 2002 where homeland security was very much on the mind of the voters. it's a year that that midterm history divide the pattern of a president's party losing seats. the president's party actually gained seats because the question is, is the homeland safe. democrats have an opportunity to say it's not safe. but don't take our word for it, listen to kevin mccarthy. matt gaetz, mo brooks are singleded out by name. i wonder if that's an argument democrats are willing to take to the country ahead of the midterms. >> i think it is and i think it must be. i talk to my constituents daily and they're very concerned about the threats to the homeland as well as to democracies around the world, look no farther than ukraine. i was trying to say earlier that i attended the funeral of madeline albright today. we shared the spelling of our first name and gave me the opportunity to work with her on some important issues. and what she warned us about was the protection of democracies, here at home and abroad. she said as a little girl her father, when they came here she was 11 and he was a diplomat. and he said i am so worried that americans do not realize how precious and precarious and fragile their democracy is. it is a gift that must be taken care of and grown. and so she reminded us of that throughout her work. but especially now at the end of her life with her final book, sadly we are living that threat to our own democracy. we must take that to the voters. if we don't get that right this election cycle and every other one, none of the rest will matter. this is about the world we will leave our grandchildren. if we don't protect our democracy and don't have leaders that actually lead, tell the truth and lead, i don't know where we're going to go. as i sat there, mr. mcconnell was there in the front row. in speech after speech and eulogy after eulogy, it was all about how do you use your power to tell the truth, to lift up others, and to protect our democracy. >> it's so amazing to listen to you say that about mccarthy -- or about mcconnell who has said he'll vote for donald trump again. i wonder other than the january 6 committee how important does it become having a justice department willing to look where steve scalise told them to look, criminality of matt gaetz. >> it is essential that the department of justice do their work. the 1/6 committee is doing extraordinary work and i look forward to the public hearings so the public will understanding the gravity of what we're talking about. of course what we're learning is no surprise. these are shocking because they are really unamerican, the things that are being said, the lies that are being told, but they're no surprise. so the department of justice has important work to do. i look forward to them doing it. i'm sure they're doing it very deliberately because they're going after the ultimate atrocity to our democracy, which is january 6th. they can't afford to get that wrong. so i look forward to their work. i look forward to the work of the 1/6 committee. we also have other important work to do and we'll continue to do that. >> i have one more question. have you heard any color or anecdotes what it's like to be up there after the world heard kevin mccarthy and steve scalise talk about their own colleagues? i heard he got a standing ovation from his colleagues but has anyone run into anybody in that caucus or have you heard anything about tensions today? >> i've seen, i've witnessed the tensions, i can tell you that, but it's not new. i know it feels like it's new, but it's not. the weakness of kevin mccarthy, the flip-flopping of kevin mccarthy is simply nothing new. and i want to make this point. we need a strong republican party and we need a strong republican conference, we just don't have that right now. >> madeleine dean, with everyone going on today, we are really grateful for you making some time for us. thank you so much. >> thank you for having me. david jolly, to the congresswoman's point, wanting the members to share their thoughts and the truth about 1/6 and this whole conversation about whether or not republicans will be subpoenaed isn't about punishing your colleagues, it's about getting to the truth of january 6th. i wonder how you think the substance of what's on the tapes -- we should also remember liz cheney is on those calls. when they happen, she's the number three, right? she's the third highest ranking republican. it goes mccarthy, scalise, liz, and that's what she was purged from. why are we debating whether or not they should be subpoenaed? why wouldn't they go, man up, sit and share with the committee what we've all heard with our own ears on the tape? >> yeah. so it is about getting to the truth, unless you look at it through the lens of kevin mccarthy and his republican colleagues. it's about hiding the truth. that's why they will not cooperate with the january 6 committee. it's why it's become increasingly clear that kevin had such caution and fear when liz cheney said i'll going to accept the role because liz cheney knows what kevin mccarthy was saying and doing in those moments. liz cheney knows the truth about kevin mccarthy. i think there's a common thread about kevin mccarthy and mitch mcconnell. we often say donald trump will do this again. but the truth is the republican leadership, the republican party would let all of this happen again and they would play their role in ensuring it would all happen again. even in an environment where kevin loses his quest for the speakership for a second time, this is not a republican party in the house that would elevate somebody that is a consensus-healing figure. i don't know what happens if kevin loses the speakership because it throws the caucus in disarray. the likelihood of getting someone who will do even more bidding for donald trump, his authoritarian tendencies and willing to cover up the crimes january 6th and the ongoing crimes the republican party is willing to tolerate, the risk of somebody even greater than kevin mccarthy willing to play a role in that becomes much, much higher, mccarthy does not get the speakership. >> and it is this sort of vice that is the threat of the pod earn gop. joyce, i want to read something a little wonky on the legal front. this is a piece in cnn opinion called the republican blueprint to steal the 2024 election. and who wrote it is as notable as what it says. it's from michael luddig, appointed by president george h.w. bush, formerly served on the u.s. circuit court. he advise it mike pence on january 6th. he had some really striking comments in both "the new york times" and "the washington post" about the efforts to subvert democracy. he writes trump and the republicans can only be stopped from stealing the 2024 election at this point if the supreme court rejects the independent state legislature doctrine, thus allowing state court enforcement of state constitutional limitations on legislatively election rules and elector appointments and congress amends the power to reject elector votes. a, what does that mean? b, is it an acknowledgement that republicans came way too close to overturning the twekt 20 -- 2020 election result? >> second question first. it means exactly that. they came far too close. judge luddig graduated from the university of virginia law school a few years ahead of me. it's a conservative law school. he worked in the white house counsel's office and ended up on the fourth circuit court of appeals. this is a conservative's conservative. one of the reasons he was called upon, i assume, to work with the vice president in the run-up to certifying the electoral vote is that john eastman, one of the pro opponents of this crazy plan to overturn the election had clerked for judge luddig. so this is a smart, scholarly person who leans far right. for him to right these words i think is a very serious wake-up call to people in the republican party, but also for all of us to understand that past here is prologue. and this failed effort in 2020 may well be a precursor to an all-out assault on democracy if trump runs again and loses in '24. >> ryan reilly, if you could just take us inside the doj strategy with these jury trials. this is the fourth one. the first three resulted in all of the trump supporters who faced trial being found guilty on every count they faced. how closely are folks inside doj watching these results, and what is your sense of what comes next for them? >> well, i can tell you there's definitely some supervisors in the room during opening arguments and closing arguments in a lot of these cases, something they have taken a lot of interest in. i think they're strategizing and working with one another, the different teams prosecuting these cases as they go forward. essentially what you have right now is a number of different defendants trying various different legal strategies. we had the defendant try the trump made me do it legal strategy before. now we're trying this defense, this self-defense argument in this trial this week. so i think that they're basically trying to throw spaghetti at the wall and see what will work with a jury here. but really the best luck you can have given the amount of video evidence is, if you happen to get a certain judge, trump-appointed judge and happen to be charged with something you can go to a bench trial with. that's the only acquittal we've seen where a man with a security clearance walked through the door and a judge found that, oh, maybe he might have actually believed that the cop was letting him into the building or it wasn't completely unreasonable to believe that the cop was allowing him into the building. that's the only acquittal we've seen so far. so i think the justice department has a pretty good track record in these cases and their work is cut out for them because they already have -- they already have so much video evidence they have to pore through. but in this latest case we had all of this video evidence of the same incident. you can see it for yourself. jurors can see it with their own eyes. there's never been cases like this where you have multiple angles of a crime committed on videotape and it's still going to a jury. >> it's so amazing and also speaks to the brazenness. david jolly, joyce vance, ryan reilly, it's great to see you of you. thank you. when we come back, we turn to the war in ukraine and battles raging in the east of that country. residents are returning home to find absolute horror. we'll have a live report, next. plus, why some democrats are still feeling the burn. the author of a brand-new insider account about bernie sanders 2020 presidential campaign and broader movement will be our guest. and dr. anthony fauci says the united states is out of the full-blown pandemic phase of the coronavirus. that's good news. but he's decided not to attending the white house correspondents dinner over concerns for himself about the risk of covid. we'll help all of us make sense of that split screen america when it comes to covid later in the hour. 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>> yeah, everyone's good. >> well, again, this place has come under attack. they have managed to get everybody out of the village, but we need to leave now too. >> unbelievable reporting going on alongside the victims of that russian brutality. let's bring in our friend and colleague, nbc news correspondent cal perry who has now moved to kyiv, ukraine. my god, i worry about all of you when i watch everything that comes in. tell me what -- i know you were out for a reporting assignment when we spoke 24 hours ago. tell me what you've learned. >> reporter: well, so we wanted to explore, as humanitarian groups are exploring, as the united nations will and the united nations secretary general is now on the ground here. we wanted to explore the suburbs around kyiv because this is where the russian army was stood up and stopped. we heard from general austin and the u.s. secretary of state over the weekend this battle for kyiv and their impressions on it. so we went to the suburb of irpin. some may remember that bridge that russians bombed. we founding widespread destruction there. house after house completely destroyed. there are 7.7 internally displaced persons persons and we followed this woman elena to her house. this is her house. one of the other things you see everywhere is death. people buried still in the gardens of these homes. it is something that everybody is sort of faced with. you see one of the graves in her neighbor's garden. it's something everybody is faced with, the bodies that are buried in the gardens of these homes. the night it was bombed sounded horrific. >> translator: at first i had hysteria and then i felt indifference, you know, like a zombie. and when they were shelling us, there was such a feeling that they are preparing a base area and just how to say. honestly, there was nowhere to hide. i asked god to kill me straightaway. what did i take? i took documents in a plastic bag. i also grabbed a sweater and wool blanket. i don't even know why i took it. after that, when our house was burning, we were sitting on it, near the house in front, and i left it there somewhere. oh, and there was a bottle of water, but i prepared it in advance. >> reporter: and so we have now a country faced with this impossible task of fighting a war in the east, a war that is picking up. you saw that package. and the shelling continuing. we're hearing now reports in that area and bombs being lobbed into civilian areas. in parts of the country where i am, you have an effort to try to resettle millions of people whose houses are destroyed, people who are literally shell shocked. on top of that, we're wondering if there's a new front to this war. in the past 24 to 48 hours there have been a series of explosions on the russian side of the border, on infrastructure targets. these are oil infrastructure targets. and you have this very cagey response from the ukrainian government. we can put up that tweet. this is from a senior advisor to the ukrainian president who writes these sites. skpangt production incidents he writes. how can we not believe in karma for the murder of ukrainian children? it is not taking credit for these aattacks, it is not deferring credit for these attacks but it is something that is continued. we heard from the russian president yesterday in response to these explosions in russia and he said if these explosions continue, if these attacks continue, an he's blaming ukrainian forces, he will start striking in kyiv again. you have the fear level rising but at the same time the people who live here are quite happy for things to keep exploding on the russian side of the border. >> can you help us understand some of the geography. bucha is pretty close to kyiv and irpin -- i remember richard engle's reporting from there. one of the bridges came down and people were carrying their large dogs over that river and evacuating with as few items as the woman you interviewed there did. tell me how face to face everyone is with the horror and brutality of these very fresh wounds from this war just days and weeks ago? >> reporter: it is something surprising to me because it's so close to the capital. so bucha and irpin are suburbs of the capital. i was talking to our local journalist who travels with us. i said what were these towns known for before the war? because in so many of these places where you have wars, the identity is lost. the identity becomes a place of mass killings, a place of mass graves. when before this, these suburbs were known as places where there was cheaper housing, where there was more green areas, there was more green spaces. it's like anything else in the world. if you had kids, maybe you moved out to bucha or irpin. there was a little more room there. you had a backyard. sure, the drive was 30, 40 minutes into the capital, but it was suburban living. now you have the tragedy of these places defined by their worst moments in history, defined by the unexploded ordnance in the ground. we were walking through a parking lot and found a mortar round that landed in the cement that was still unexploded. you have the russians pushed back but a whole other task and how many times have we said this, to try to ensure that people are not dying from things other than combat. not dying from all of these other things that war brings to ukraine. and so you have this two sides of the conflict now. >> and you still have so many people fighting off in the east fighting the war. it's more incredible reporting, cal perry, thank you for bringing it to us. please stay safe. >> thanks, nicolle. ahead for us, how bernie sanders won even by losing. the author of a brand new, super duper inside take on the vermont senator will be our guest after a quick break. stay with us. e our guest after a quick break. stay with us cash) ♪ i've traveld every road in this here land! ♪ ♪ i've been everywhere, man. ♪ ♪ i've been everywhere, man. ♪ ♪ crossed the desert's bare, man. ♪ ♪ i've breathed the mountain air, man. ♪ ♪ of travel i've had my share, man. ♪ ♪ i've been everywhere. ♪ ♪ i've been to: pittsburgh, parkersburg, ♪ ♪ gravelbourg, colorado, ♪ ♪ ellensburg, cedar city, dodge city, what a pity. ♪ ♪ i've been everywhere, man. ♪ ♪ i've been everywhere, man. ♪ ♪ i've been everywhere. ♪ entresto is the number one heart failure brand prescribed by cardiologists and has helped over one million people. it was proven superior at helping people stay alive and out of the hospital. don't take entresto if pregnant; it can cause harm or death to an unborn baby. don't take entresto with an ace inhibitor or aliskiren, or if you've had angioedema with an ace or arb. the most serious side effects are angioedema, low blood pressure, kidney problems, or high blood potassium. ask your doctor about entresto. wayday! or high blood potassium. wayfair's biggest sale of the year is here. right now for two days only, april 27th and 28th. save on all the upgrades you need to refresh your space your way. that's why we carry a large selection of kitchen faucets. so that your little update can make a big difference. wayfair has all the easy upgrades. from cabinet hardware to peel and stick tile. and with the lowest prices of the year on everything from bathtubs to vanities. even your big projects are no big deal. ♪ wayfair, you've got just what i need ♪ at vanguard, you're more than just an investor, you're an owner with access to financial advice, tools and a personalized plan that helps you build a future for those you love. vanguard. become an owner. for a decade now, one of the most influential and intriguing leaders inside the democratic party technically and in american politics has been bernie sanders. the independent senator from vermont who over the course of the last two presidential elections has waged campaigns on policy that have moved the democratic party and the entire conversation to be centered around more progressive ideas. a brand-new book by the insider's insider, sanders' deputy campaign manager for his 2020 presidential campaign entitled "the fighting soul" gives a behind-the-scenes look at his time on the campaign trail and his attempts to answer this question. who really is bernie sanders? he writes this. sanders relentless focus on his core agenda blinds him to the desire of most people to truly know him, in the way they hope to know the politicians they elect to high office. to bernie, that's all gossip. issues are what matter, not personalities. the author of that book joins us now. ari rabenhoff. it's so nice to have you here. i want to disclose that after bernie sanders won the nevada caucuses, i found my way to you and said please explain this movement to you and you did in ways that, as you say, are hard to understand if you're watching the man on tv because he doesn't want to reveal himself. he doesn't want to be read like an open book. explain who bernie sanders is. >> that's the thing, he's one of the most famous, and he hates that description, important, influential people in america. very few people know who he is. i had the privilege of being on the road with him for basically four years straight. getting to know him, getting to see him and i wanted to bring that to people. who is he? beyond the politician, he's somebody who is very funny. he has a wry sense of humor that can really dig in and just makes you laugh outloud. he really likes to dance. when people ask me for the thing they don't know about bernie that would surprise them, it's that he loves dancing. there was some viral video that came out of one event where he got down and boogied. he's somebody who is deeply connected to motown and that era of music. in fact i discuss two kind of what i consider book-end moments of the campaign in this book. one was before the debate in detroit where he was sitting in the green room with the campaign manager and i looking kind of dour. he didn't look like he was ready for the debate. we read him a press release from another candidate kind of bashing him. he turned to us and he said you know that charlie brown song, why is everybody always picking on me? faz started playing it on his phone and bernie started dancing around the room like air boxes and he went on to this stage and it was one of the his best performances. the last day of the campaigning, you didn't know what was going on with covid. we had an event in ohio. we were in detroit. we were trying to figure out what to do with covid advancing. we didn't know whether we were cancelling the event or not. we had this hour free. and one of the things we did was go to the motown museum and seeing bernie's joy. in his final moments of the campaign, sitting in the original motown studio singing "my girl" with the tour guide. it was this incredible moment. >> ari, i have not read every book written by every politician but i've read just about every book written by campaign staffers. i mean your book is up there with the sort of candid soul-bearing stories an tales of a relationship between a staffer and a candidate. and i've always felt like a candidate who has the tightest bond with their staff, who understands the mission, is usually the most likely to be successful. i want to read what you write in the book about what brought you to bernie sanders. you are write this. my decision to work on the sanders campaign was a personal one in the end. i came to bernie's campaign for much of the same reason others did. pain. what do you mean? >> what i mean is there were points in my life where my family had some economic struggles, where we -- where we faced some economic problems, and, therefore, i experienced that firsthand. and it was that kind of pain and acknowledgement of that pain that in a way led me to bernie. and the other piece of that is i noticed that among a lot of other staffers. they had stories of personal struggles that really did lead them to bernie and this ideology. >> and bernie's tie to his supporters was this emotional one that you're talking about. and you never beat an emotional tie with an intellectual argument. i wonder if you can just talk about how his tie with his supporters and with the democratic party in your view has changed the democratic party and its agenda. >> you'd see this with bernie where you'd stand up at an event. tell me what's going on in your life. tell me about how your family is struggling. tell me about what is happening. and people would tell these incredible stories about what brought them to bernie. i mean there was one story that's completely heart breaking in the campaign where a guy stood up and said i lost my tri-care and i'm going -- i'm thinking of ending my life. bernie was like don't. he and some other senators worked to make sure his health care was restored actually, thank god. but people would bring these enormously painful stories. bernie had this belief that if we get people to tell their stories, if we get people to explain their pain, we'd have a sense in our society that our problems are alone and our fault in our system. but if you recognize that it's not just you who can't afford college, it's everybody. it's not just you having problems affording medical care, it is a societywide problem, then we have to start tackling those problems as a society. >> i remember watching the day that he ended his campaign. i remember -- i've worked on a winning campaign and a losing campaign. those days are so painful as staffers. i wondering if you can just tell me what the day was like for you, and if you think bernie sanders would run for president again? >> the day -- having been on winning campaigns and losing campaigns too, the end of a campaign, i think only a staffer can describe it. in a way it's like the end of the world. you've been fully immersed in this world forever. the campaign ends and it's the end of the world. this campaign ends not only because it was bernie but as our campaign ended, literally the world was ending. we were in the midst of covid. you never have an emotional release. you go out, you drink with your fellow staffers, you remember the good times, you toast, you get drunk. you kind of like absorb it all. you job hunt. in this case the campaign is ending and the world is falling apart so it's a double emotional bang. will he run again? there was a memo widely covered last week. if you ask me would i finish the book? i'd say no. but here's the thing about bernie. he's a guy that's kind of unstoppable. this weekend on sunday he's in new york with amazon workers and then flies to richmond, virginia, with starbucks workers. now he's in d.c. today at 8:00 a.m. outside the white house protesting for free college. you know, he is unstoppable. and if he says he could do it, very specifically in the case that joe biden wouldn't run. i think they were very specific about that in the memo. but if he says he could do something, i have no doubt he has the energy to do it. >> the book is called "the fighting soul, on the road with bernie sanders." if you care about bernie sanders or care about what it's like to work on a campaign with someone that you believe in with your whole heart and your whole soul, pick it up and read it. ari, thank you for spending some time with us today and congratulations on the book. >> thank you so much, nicolle. when we come back, dr. fauci says the full-blown pandemic phase of covid is over here in the u.s., but not after a staggering number of american adults and children have already contracted it. that story after a quick break. . thatto sry after a quick break the lows of bipolar depression can leave you down and in the dark. but what if you could begin to see the signs of hope all around you? 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>> yeah. i think, ni kell, nicole, unfortunately his comments were spot on. you're not going to an event because you're not in a pandemic. we are leaving it up to individuals for assessments and we are struggling to make sure everyone who needs to gets boosted gets boosted. we're not dealing with so many deaths a day. i am still uncomfortable with the number of cases that we are seeing and they're not as severe. that's good. i'm still struggling with long covid and what this means to people. even myself when i heard that i thought is he trying to tell people that, quote, we can get back to normal? he's not. we are just in a different phase in this country, but what that means for an individual, nicole, hasn't changed in a radical way. we are still having calculated risks and make these decisions and go to dinner and go on a plane that doesn't have masks and how do we deal with weddings and children that can't get vaccinated. >> there's so much more information available to us now about the mental health picture for young people and some of it is adjacent to the pandemic year. some of it is caused by the pandemic years. it will probably take another two years to unpack all of that, but how do you balance sort of the risk reward in light of all of the anxiety and the impact that the isolation had on young people? >> yeah. i think the risk especially in the beginning when i had duct tape on the counter and washing boxes of produce on one side to move it to the other side. >> right. >> we've come a long way from this and we understand a lot more about the risks. i have parents every day and it's growing because of the clamor for vaccines for under 5. i have parents who reach out constantly and they have very real concerns because they've had a child. they're one of those people that have had the 75% infected and they're struggling to deal with their other children or repeat infection and they see something in their children and they say i want to make sure they can do anything possible for decades to protect them because i'm worried and it's hard to say to that parent, the reward is greater than the risk for this individual because you're not in that moment and you're not in that family and you don't know. so i know it's been difficult and i don't think they've been dealing with those rewards in terms of isolation and mental health. we had to deal with this before the pandemic and we've done no service and we had to invest back in our education system and we lost teachers and wooe losing students and it's not because we don't know how to assess risk and a multitude of things. it's a much larger conversation and we should have it because two years in is sort of an inflexion point of all of that and the risk, and every parent and every grandparent and every mom and dad wants to protect all of their kids. dr. kavita patel, thank you for spending time with us today. a quick break for us. we'll be right back. k break fors k break fors we'll be right back. pssst caesar! julius! dude, you should really check in with your team on ringcentral. i was thinking like... oh hi, caesar. we were just talking about you. ha ha ha. ♪ ringcentral ♪ for investors who can navigate this landscape, leveraging gold, a strategic and sustainable asset... the path is gilded with the potential for rich returns. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ we believe there's an innovator in all of us. ♪ ♪ that's why we build technology that makes it possible for every business... and every person... to come to the table and do more incredible things. i know there's conflicting information and every person... about dupuytren's contracture. i thought i couldn't get treatment yet? 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