the presidential primary that year, he wasn't just a random candidate among them all, it was clear by the time those comments were made by mr. mccarthy that trump was going to win the nomination. by the time mccarthy said that, "i think putin pays trump," trump had basically cleared the field of the other competitors, he was just a month away from formally clinching the nomination. so for that reason alone, this headline was kind of a double take thing. stunning. that one of the top guys in leadership, one of the most powerful elected officials in the republican party, was going around saying out loud, at that time, that he was pretty sure that this guy who was about to get the republican nominee for president, he was on putin's payroll. but what made kevin mccarthy more unsettling and potentially more explosive is the context in the remarks and what the "washington post" reported at the time is that what happened right before mccarthy said that, right before mccarthy said trump was being paid by putin, he and speaker paul ryan had just come out of talks with the prime minister of ukraine who was visiting washington. this is in 2016. kevin mccarthy and paul ryan, apparently met separately with the prime minister of ukraine, it wasn't even a single meeting they both had with him, but even so he in both meetings the ukrainian prime minister reportedly made a point of telling each of those republican leaders in congress about sophisticated propaganda tactics that the russians were using to mess with ukraine. specifically they described to them how russian had found all sorts of sophisticated covert ways to support specific populist politicians that russia believed could weaken ukraine's government, could weaken ukraine's democracy and thereby benefit russia was was trying to undermine ukraine. those meetings with paul ryan and kevin mccarthy, who told the members of congress, that the kremlin had been quote financing people in our governments to undo our governments. that was the conversation that the house speaker paul ryan and the republican leader kevin mccarthy had behind closed doors with the ukrainian prime minister. the kremlin had gotten really good at this business of paying for and supporting divisive, corrupt populous candidates to try to get them into office in countries they were trying to mess with, so if those candidates go the into office, they would effectively mess with good government, democracy and weaken those countries that russia saw as an enemy. that's what mccarthy and paul ryan heard from the ukrainian prime minister. after they heard that from the ukrainian prime minister they walked out of those meetings, they head to go speak with fellow members of the republican leadership in congress, and not surprisingly what they had heard from the ukrainian prime minister is still ringing in their ears, it was still very much on their mind, so much so that they relayed to the republican house leadership what they had just heard, and apparently, that led kevin mccarthy, the house republican majority leader, to tell his fellow republican members of congress his opinion, that quote, there's two people i think putin pays. pro russia congressman rhrabacher and donald trump. as the "washington post" put it at the time, some of the lawmakers who heard this laughed at mccarthy's comments and mccarthy added i swear to god. and paul ryan instructed the lieutenant to keep this conversation private, and this is how we know we are real family here. that's how we know we're a real family. i'm sorry, i love my family, i love my family, but if i told them that i was pretty sure the guy about to be nominated for president was a paid foreign agent, and i was in a position to know that, i would want them to leak that, i think. and knowing somebody in the family, maybe the right thing to do is leak. it in any case, somebody did leak it, not right away, it took about a year, those comments about kevin mccarthy saying that he believed that he believed trump was on putin's payroll, that came out may 2017 by which time trump was already president, so when that "washington post" story with that astonishing headline dropped, that's an issue, right? because trump is now president. and in may 2017, when that story drops, house speaker for house speaker paul ryan and kevin mccarthy denied that this had ever happened. a spokesperson for mccarthy went even further said quote, the idea that mccarthy would assert this is absurd and false. it's absurd. it's false. you're making fools of yourself "washington post" by reporting something like this, as if any like this has ever happened. it's crazy. but then the tape turns out it was on tape, told that the "washington post" reporters had actually listened to an audio recording of the actual remarks in question. the spokesman who had previously deflied that this had ever -- denied that this had ever happened, they had to do some quick thinking and back pedaling and come up with a new line and stop denying that kevin mccarthy had ever said this and pass it off as a misunderstood joke and no longer insist that it was absurd and false to suggest that kevin mccarthy had said that trump was on putin's pay roshlg the new line was that the way he said it wasn't being fully appreciated. the spokesman says it was a quote failed attempt at humor. so, you know, one thing for journalists to report in print that you said putin is paying trump, it's a whole other thing for them to say actually we heard the tape of you saying that. so that story was amazing when it came out in may 2017, and evolved over time, and stuck with me, as has the premise of mccarthy's quote in the first place, but keep that story, keep that in the front of your mind tonight, given the news that we are about to break right here on this show. we have just obtained a copy of a new book that was written by two "new york times" reporters, alexander barnes and jonathan martin, and their new book is called "this will not pass," trump biden and the battle for america's future. now, mr. martin and mr. burns' book is not out yet, it is not out million may 3rd, a week from -- out until may 3rd, a week from now but we obtained a copy and the book is incredibly well sourced and draws on hundreds of interviews with elected officials, and other government officials, as well as tons of contemporaneous records from the 2020 presidential campaign, and what followed in the early, early aftermath of that election and the contesting by the republican side. and among other things, the book recounts for the first time that in the days after the january 6th attack on the u.s. capitol by trump supporter, the top republicans in the house and senate, congressman kevin mccarthy, by then the top republican in the house, and senator mitch mcconnell, the top republican in the senate, according to this new reporting from alexander burns and jonathan martin, mcconnell and mccarthy both had quite a few private conversations with other republicans and their own advisers, in which they harshly, harshly criticized president trump for having incited the attack on the capitol and each of these republicans leaders vowed that they would run trump out of politics. among other things, the book details how receptive senator mitch mcconnell was to the idea of having president trump impeached. this is from the book. quote, on monday, january 11th, 2021, five days after the attack on the capitol, senator mcconnell shared a chick-fil-a takeout lunch with a pair of long time adviser, terry carmack and scott jennings. in jennings louisville office, mcconnell outlined what he saw as trump's imminent denies. he said quote, the democrats are going to take care of this son of a, the sob for us, referring to pelosi's determination to bring impeachment charges against trump that very week. the house had the votes to impeach trump, likely with a meaningful stamp of bipartisanship and during that lunch senator mcconnell told these advisers that there would be at least 17 senate republicans ready to affirm trump's impeachment, meaning ready to vote to convict him, that would supply the two-thirds vote needed to convict. trump would already be out of office by the time the senate vote took place, but a conviction in the senate would mean trump could be barred from running for office ever again. trump's role on january 6th, mcconnell said, was clearly impeachable. he suggested that he would be among the republicans who would vote for conviction. he said quote, if this is an impeachable, if this isn't impeachable, i don't know what is. >> nice words from senator mcconnell, right? principled sounding words. but of course senator mcconnell did not vote to convict trump in the senate and because he didn't, 17 republicans never were going to. so trump wasn't convicted. so he's not barred from running for office again. senator mcconnell's office did not respond to multiple requests for comment today about this new reporting. but even beyond what jonathan martin and alexander burns reported about senator mitch mcconnell, it's their recounting of kevin mccarthy's reaction, house republican leader kevin mccarthy's reaction in the days after january 6th that are perhaps even more striking. and this is where we're going to make some news here tonight. here's what mr. burns and mr. martin say about kevin mccarthy. quote, on january 10th, kevin mccarthy convened a small group of house republican leaders to share his thinking. speaking with just three other top republicans on a private call, mccarthy said he might call on trump to resign. he conferred for more than 45 minutes with steven scalise, liz cheney and tom emmer, the minnesota congressman who led the house republicans campaign committee. the usually upbeat mr. mccarthy was audibly anguished. the gravity of the attack was still sinking in. and it seemed increasingly clear to him that he had to break with trump. it was finally time to end they're lines. his plan, mccarthy said on that january 10th call was to approach president trump and tell him it was inevitable that congress would impeach him, and it was time for him to go. he envisioned telling trump of an impeachment resolution, quote, i think this will pass. and it would be my recommendation you should resign. i think this will pass, meaning the impeachment resolution will pass, meaning you will be impeached, quote, it would be my recommendation that you should resign. mccarthy said near the end of the call, quote, i've had it this w-this guy. what he did was unacceptable. nobody can defend that and nobody should defend it. now, it is one thing to know that kevin mccarthy once thought that way and once told his colleagues that he intended to do those things that he described. and of course, now, you couldn't slide a sheet of paper between him and trump and decided to apparently jetson those concerns and pluj pledge his loyalty to trump and that tells you something about mr. mccarthy. in their new book, mr. martin and mr. burns call it simply surrender by mr. mccarthy. that's the word they use. but you know, it's another thing entirely for him to deny that this all happened. when in fact it happened. in a statement to the "new york times" earlier today, a spokesman for kevin mccarthy issued a flat denial that mccarthy ever said he would push trump to resign, that spokesman said, quote, mccarthy never said he called trump to say he should resign. he never said he called trump to say he should resign. to further clarify, you should also know that nbc news reached out to the congressman's office following that statement, specifically asking again, and drilling down, on the question of whether or not mr. mccarthy said he would push president trump to resign. his spokesman responded saying, quote, no, he did not. mccarthy issued a statement himself, saying "the new york times" reporting on me is totally false and wrong. the problem with these denials from mr. mccarthy and his office is that we have now obtained audio of that january 10th phone call that leader mccarthy had with other top republicans in which he in fact said he's going to call trump and tell him that he must resign. the you a thors of this new book, jonathan martin and alexander burns from "the new york times" have shared that audio of the call with us so we can share it with you and so you can know when kevin mccarthy denies that this happened, he is not telling the truth. here it is. >> are you here? >> i'm here, mr. chairman. i just heard the question, when we talked about the 25th amendment resolution, and you asked, you know, what happens if you get there after he's gone, is there any chance, are you hearing that he might resign. anything that that might happen? >> i've had a few discussions, my gut tells me no. i'm seriously thinking that conversation with him tonight, i haven't talked to him a couple of times tonight, you guys all know him, and do you guys think he's ever going to -- this is what i think. we know it will pass the house. i think there's a chance that it will pass the senate even though he's gone. and i think there's a lot of different adaptations from that. now, i haven't had a discussion with the dems that if he did resign, that that would happen, and this is one personal fear i, have i do not want to get into any conversation about pence, and again, the only discussion i would have with him is i think this will be pass, and it is my recommendation that he should be resign. i think that would be my take, but i don't think he would take it, but i don't know. >> a discussion i would have with him is that i think this will pass, meaning the impeachment resolution will pass, and it would be my recommendation you should resign. i mean that would be my take. it would be my recommendation, mr. president, that you should resign. that's what kevin mccarthy told other house republicans on january 10th, 2011, that he was going to call president trump and tell him that the impeachment was going to pass and he needed to resign. mr. mccarthy flat out denied that today. he denied he said he would tell trump would resign. he in fact said exactly that. joining us "new york times" new york political correspondents jonathan martin and alexander burn, the author of the book "this will not pass, trump, biden and the battle for america's future," mr. burns, mr. martin, thank you very much for joining us and congratulations on the book. >> thank you. >> and give you a chance to chime in, if i got that wrong or if i put the emphasis on the wrong place or got any of it just the wrong way around. >> no i think you very much captured it, and i would say for the book-buying audience out there, for people who work in politics this is only the start. we have captured some of the most intimate and extraordinary conversations in the extraordinary period following january 6th on tape. and there's more to come between now and when the book is out, on may 3rd, but what you played there really does capture, rachel, where kevin mccarthy was, he was looking for a way out. he thought trump had become toxic. he was trump's biggest ally during the four years of the trump presidency. here he is, looking for an escape hatch. how do i get rid of this soon to be former president. and what we have to do to sort of make myself cleanse from him, somehow, some way, he comes to maybe i have to ask him to resign. which of course famously is what, barry goldwater did with president nixon during with the water gate situation, and what is different here, in the subsequent weeks, kevin mccarthy realized there was not the will in his caucus to make such a call to president trump and his members were deferring to their voters who did not want to move on president trump, they weren't angry with him over january 6th and mccarthy is down at mar-a-lago before the month is out and patching his relationship with trump and now we know they're back together again. >> thank you both, i have to thank you for allowing us to hear and to play for our audience the recording that backs up your reporting here, i have to ask what you make of the fact that mr. mccarthy and his office are denying that this ever happened, and denying explicitly to nbc news today, when we followed up with him about their denial, and that explicitly clarifying that he never suggested he was going to make this kinds of a call to donald trump, it really does appear to not be the truth, from mr. mccarthy. >> that's a pretty diplomatic way of putting it, rachel. it was a totally bogus denial as your audience just heard. and i think what this moment captures in addition to everything jonathan just said, and with this tape in particular captures, and just the staggering gulf between what republican leaders say about donald trump in public and to his face, and what they will say about him in private and i don't know that anybody should find it tearily reassuring that kevin mccarthy is -- terribly reassuring that kevin mccarthy is more clear eyed about donald trump and the dangerous force that he represented in january of 2021, that he is more clear eyed about that in public than he is in public because rachel this is an ongoing story, we all know donald trump is preparing to run for president again, we know what happened about in the 202 election and what he talks about what should happen in the 2024 election and if past performance is any indicator of future results, what you heard on that tape, and then what kevin mccarthy did subsequently to hold donald trump to account, which was nothing, is a pretty ominous story about the future. >> and i don't mean to be polyanna about this at all, or naive but it seems to me i sort of expect a certain level from politicians in particular, you know, that of saying one thing in public and saying it another way in private, certainly speaking more harshly, less diplomatic terms in private, what i don't expect is for even public officials, even politicians to flat out lie about what they have said. when it is on the record, when they have reason to believe it might have even been recorded, and they just deny that it happened, i think this creates a real problem for mr. mccarthy, i think he must at least apologize and i would not surprise if there were not calls for his resignation, for him lying and denying that he did, this when in fact, he did it. but of course he answers to his caucus, and jonathan, let me ask you about another bombastic allegation, or at least bombastic reality that you have in the chapter of the book, mr. mccarthy, according to your reporting, called for more members his caucus, other republican members of congress to have their twitter accounts cut off, the same way that trump was cut off from twitter, he is also denying that he said that. what is your reaction to that denial? >> i can't quite do a mad house style justice here but i'll try, if you take yourself back to this period, january of 2021, remember, president trump was widely seen after january 6th potentially inciting a second attack on the capitol, so twitter took action and removed him from that platform. and so what mccarthy is talking about is, he's hearing from his fellow gop leaders on this call about sox more bombastic -- some of the more bombastic tweets from far right members of the house caucus who were looking for any rationalization about the attack of january 6th. and mccarthy says out loud on this call, you know, can't they take their twitter accounts away, too? because it is striking given the tough talk today about taking on high-tech company, big tech companies, in this private conversation, that we have on tape, he is suggesting that those big tech companies, he wants to crack down on, actually should crack down on members of his caucus. the very members who he is now courting assiduously to try to keep happy so he has the votes to become speaker next year. and it's a striking moment in this conversation, because he's pulling his hair out, you can sort of hear the anguish in his voice as he's talking about what else do i have to deal with beyond my own member, and he is deeply frustrated in that period. and once again, the mccarthy office denied that fact. and it is a fact. it's on tape, that he said this, for pining away, hoping that twitter could strip some of his own members of their accounts. >> so just to underscore this, just to be clear, mr. mccarthy and his office have denied that he said he was going to call trump and tell him to resign, you have it on tape, we just heard that he in fact said, that he's also today denied that he called four members of his own caucus, other house republicans to have their social media access cut off, you've got that on tape? >> that's correct. and we have a lot more on tape, from this period, which is at the highest levels of american politics, it is sensitive, it's delicate, and it's high stakes and we have it all on tape, and it's going to i think tell a very different story about this period than the story that many people are trying to tell right now. >> mr. burns, one of the things that we've been talking about for months, more than a year now, is accountability and telling the truth and making sure that the history isn't lost about this incredibly difficult period ha we went threw as a country including the physical attack on the capitol including the other efforts to try to throw out election results and keep a candidate in office after he had lost the election and i think that some of the story is told by journalists, some of the story is going to be told by the congressional investigation, some of the story is going to be told in court, as prosecutors try to prove crimes, do you believe that any of these things that you are first reporting in this book is stuff that is going to be of interest to the january 6th investigators or indeed to prosecutors and have you been asked for any of your material? >> well, i think we have very good reason to believe that some of this material could be of interest to members of the january 6th committee. without getting into too much detail on that. it's obviously an investigation that is looking very, very closely at president trump's frame of mind before and after the jab ry january 6th event, his private conversation, the extent to which people in and around the white house, and senior levels of the republican party were aware of what he intended to do, and perhaps any awareness on the then president's part, that what he was doing was wrong, or fraudulent. and so when either kevin mccarthy alluding on that tape, i haven't spoken to president trump in a couple of days, he did speak to him a couple of days ago, right, so there are indications in some of the materials that we have that certainly leader mccarthy has more insight into what president trump was thinking and doing during that time than he has publicly disclosed. >> fascinating. and consequential. and gentlemen, i thank you for this reporting for sharing it with us. particularly for letting our viewers hear this incredible tape. i know the book is not out until may 3rd but i hope you come back when it launches and appreciate you being here tonight. >> thank you. national political correspondent, their new book is "this will not pass," trump biden and the battle for america's future. it is not out yet. it is out in a week and a half. but boy is it making news already. much more to get here tonight. do stay with us. ready. much more to get here tonight. do stay with us. ugh... they found me. ♪ ♪ nice suits, you guys blend right in. the world needs you back. i'm retired greg, you know this. people have their money just sitting around doing nothing... that's bad, they shouldn't do that. they're getting crushed by inflation. well, i feel for them. they're taking financial advice from memes. 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[ding] e*trade now from morgan stanley. and it's easier than ever to get your projects done right. with angi, you can connect with and see ratings and reviews. and when you book and pay throug you're covered by our happiness check out angi.com today. angi... and done. at xfinity, we live and work in the same neighborhood as you. and when you book and pay throug you're covered by our happiness we're always working to keep you connected to what you love. and now, we're working to bring you the next generation of wifi. it's ultra-fast. faster than a gig. supersonic wifi. only from xfinity. it can power hundreds of devices with three times the bandwidth. so your growing wifi needs will be met. supersonic wifi only from us... xfinity. former president barack obama spoke today at stanford university in northern california, talking about disinformation online. how bad it is for democracy, he put forward some ways that social media companies and public policy should change in his view, to try to mitigate some of the harm of disinformation, and he also found a way, in making that argument, to use the word sewage. sewage. in what i thought was an absolutely pitch perfect way. >> democratic backsliding isn't restricted to distant lands, right here, in the united states of america, we just saw a sitting president deny the clear results of an election, and helped insite a violent insurrection at the nation's capitol. not only that, but a majority of his party, including many who occupy some of the highest offices in the land continue to cast doubt on the legitimacy of the last election. and are using it to justify laws that restrict the vote. and make it easier to overturn the will of the people in states where they hold power. authoritarian regimes and strong men around the world, from china, to hungary, to the philippines, brazil, have learned to conscript social media platforms to turn their own populations against groups they don't like. whether it's ethnic minorities, the lbgtq community, journalists, political opponents, and of course, autocrats like putin have used these platforms as a strategic weapon against democratic countries that they consider a threat. people like putin and steve bannon for that matter understand it's not necessary for people to believe this information in order to weaken democratic institutions. you just have to flood a country's public square with enough raw sewage, you just have to raise enough questions, spread enough dirt, plant enough conspiracy theorizing, that citizens no longer know what to believe. once they lose trust in their leaders, and mainstream media, and political institutions, in each other, in the possibility of truth, the game's won. >> people like putin and donald trump adviser steve bannon, know that you don't need to win the argument, you don't need to convince everyone of everything, you just need to pump enough raw sewage into the discourse that people don't believe it's worth trying to find something true here anymore. a salient point and one very well put. as president obama speaking today at stanford. meanwhile today, the aforementioned sewage flow around steve mannen actually got a little bit stinkier today. you know what, sticky, is it grocer, for me to stay sticky or stinky in this context? i don't know. slipperier. i don't know. while trump was still president in 2020, you might remember steve bannon was arrested, hiding out on a yacht of a chinese billionaire and arrested and charged with carrying out a multimillion dollar fraud scream which stole more than $20 million from gullible trump supporters. i love that this doesn't even bother the trump folks at all. he was literally hiding out on a chinese billionaire's yacht and arrested for stealing millions of dollars, specifically from trump supporters so he could spend their money on himself. just before he left office, former president trump pardoned steve bannon for those federal charges, but it wasn't just bannon, it was four guys, including bannon, who got charged with that fraud back in 2020, it was only bannon who got pardoned, well today, of the three other guys, three other codefendants who got charged in that same scheme, two of them pled guilty. they pled guilty. they admitted stealing millions of dollars in owe dations from trump supporters who thought they were paying for one of trump's border wall schemes, when in fact these guys were stealing the money for themselves. you would think that trump supporters might hold it against trump, right? you would think they would hold it against bannon. you would think they would particularly hold it against trump that he pardoned steve ban in that scheme to steal from trump supporters but apparently nobody holds it against bannon, nobody holds it against trump, it is kind of a masochistic thing, thank you, sir, may i have another, and also do you want the security code on my credit card now or the billing address? what else would you like? that happened today. interesting question as to whether or not steve mannen might get called as a witness in the trial of one of the other defendants who is actually going to go on trial for this next week. we'll see. but there is another big story that has just broken today about the criminal law, about federal prosecutors, and whether they are ever going to have anything to say in court about the effort to throw out the results of the last election, and put trump back in the white house even though he lost. we've got that story here next with a reporter we've been dying to have on the show forever. we finally got him, that's here next, stay with us. that's here next, stay with us the sleep number 360® smart bed is on sale now. why choose proven quality sleep from sleep number? 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prosecution would work of people higher up the food chain, people who tried to overturn the election results. mr. foyer quoted that way, one possible avenue for moving up the food chain is the case of owen shroyer the right hand man of the far right conspiracy theorist alex jones, he was arrested months later on disorderly conduct charges. both men had connections to the trump white house. alex jones, the right wing talk show host, and snake oil supplement salesman, has said in fact that he had been in touch with white house officials in the days before the january 6th attack. he said he had been in touch with them about leading a march to the u.s. capitol. jones said he spent the night before january 6th, at the so-called trump war room at the hotel along with steve bannon and mike flynn and rudy giuliani and others. alex jones in fact helped organize the january 6th rally, and he encouraged his followers to attend. and he helped secure over a half million in funding to pay for that event. mr. jones also has known ties to the oath keepers and the proud boys, including their members who would later be charged as part of an alleged seditious conspiracy, to stop the counting of the electoral votes and the transfer of power from one president to the other. just bottom line, on january 6th, a lot of people who were in the crowd that day were there that day because of alex jones. well, reporter foyer's inkling about how the justice department strategy might unfold on this issue, his reporting in january would later prove to be correct. late last month he was first to report the very big news that the justice department was no longer just looking at individual rioters, people who went through the door of the capitol, he was first to report that the justice department had quote substantially widened its january 6th investigation. quote, seeking information about people more closely tied to trump, and the quote push by some trump allies to promote slates of fake electors. that reporting from foyer in "the new york times" in marched ifly changed our understanding of how -- fundamentally changed our understanding of how the justice department was going to pursue the investigation, cases of the attempted coup. and mr. foyer has continued to be a spigot of news on the subject. one week later, he reported an federal grand jury subpoena seeking information about members of the executive branch and legislative branch who might have been involved in the effort to delay congressional certification of the election results. then earlier this month, he had the scoop that alex jones' fellow rally organizer, ali alexander has offered to cooperate with the justice department's expanded criminal inquiry or at least intending to comply with their subpoenas. and now, we have foyer's latest piece which reports on two highly significant and previously under reported developments. first, as allen foyer predicted back in january, the food chain thing has kind of worked when it comes to alex jones. his sort of right-hand man, his info wars media empire, was arrested for being one of the, allegedly being one of the capitol rioters but now mr. jones himself is reportedly in talks to testify, in talks with justice department prosecutors, about him giving his own testimony. alex jones in fact is reportedly seeking a deal whereby he says he will share what he knows with prosecutors in exchange with him, giving him immunity from prosecution himself. the first big piece of news from foyer today. the second big piece of news is that the justice department has brought on a veteran career federal prosecutor, specifically to oversee the investigation into the big effort to keep trump in power, after he lost the election. this prosecutor is a career prosecutor, his name is thomas wyndham, he is reportedly in charge of investigating criminal activity outside of the violence that physically transpired at the capitol on january 6th. as foyer reports today in "the new york times," quote mr. windom is looking into the politically fraught question of whether a case can be made related to other efforts to overturn the election outside the january 6th attack itself. that is a task that could move the investigation closer to mr. trump and his inner circle. so if there was any doubt before, there isn't any now, according to this exclusive reporting from allen foyer at "the new york times," the justice department is criminally investigating, not just the riot that happened at the capitol on january 6th but the overall effort to overturn the election by president donald trump and his allies. the question is, how rigorous will this investigation be? how well resourced is it? how high up will it ultimately go? "the new york times" reporter allen foyer joins us next. he ne allen foyer joins us next. i'm jonathan lawson here to tell you about life insurance through the colonial penn program. if you're age 50 to 85, and looking to buy life insurance on a fixed budget, remember the three ps. what are the three ps? the three ps of life insurance on a fixed budget are price, price, and price. a price you can afford, a price that can't increase, and a price that fits your budget. i'm 54, what's my price? you can get coverage for $9.95 a month. i'm 65 and take medications. what's my price? also $9.95 a month. i just turned 80, what's my price? $9.95 a month for you too. if you're age 50 to 85, call now about the #1 most popular whole life insurance plan available through the colonial penn program. it has an affordable rate starting at $9.95 a month. no medical exam, no health questions. your acceptance is guaranteed. and this plan has a guaranteed lifetime rate lock so your rate can never go up for any reason. so call now for free information and you'll also get this free beneficiary planner. and it's yours free just for calling. so call now for free information. allen foyer covers courts and criminal justice for "the new york times" metro desk and he has been the lead by line on many, many, many of the most important news stories about the investigation into the january 6th attack. his latest reporting is about conspiracy theorist alex jones seeking immunity in exchange for his testimony to federal prosecutors who are looking at the january 6th attack. he also just had the latest scoop that the justice department has put career prosecutor in charge of the potential cases, not against the low level rioters who went into the capitol on january 6th but on the people who were organizing the effort to overthrow the transper of power. i know you don't particularly relish being on tv to talk about your reporting, it makes me all of the more grateful for you being here. >> thanks for having me. >> let me talk first about the prosecutor who is in charge of this january 6th investigation part, and what you can tell us about him and what exactly is he looking at that is different than all of the other prosecutors who have been at work on these cases. >> sure, so he was, his name is tom windom brought in from maryland, a career prosecutor, and although i don't know him personally, by all accounts, he's a kind of classic, you know, federal prosecutor type, he's been described as diligent, yet aggressive, and sort of like forceful, but cool under pressure, and his mandate is essentially to look at the question of whether or not there was criminal activity related to january 6th that took place outside the grounds of the capitol. as you said in your introduction, the justice department has been focused almost exclusively, for more than a year, on people who physically stormed the building. they went in, they broke windows, they just trespassed and entered restricted areas. but there's a whole other group of people who were involved in the political rally at the ellipse, donald trump's ellipse event, that preceded that, these are political organizers, speakers, sort of people described as v.i.p.s, members of congress who were involved in that event, people within the trump administration who were involved in that event, and the question is, did anything that they did help to kind of shape or inspire the violence and chaos that ultimately erupted? and that's what thomas windom has been brought in to look at, to answer that question. >> are these, is this a seditious conspiracy question? is this the kind of potential prosecution that we have seen around for example the oath keepers and those guys? or is this a different set of potential charges? >> i don't know, frankly, but if i had to say, the seditious conspiracy charge that the oath keepers are facing, i think is specifically related to the issue of the weapons that they had stored across the river in virginia, allegedly waiting to be brought in to play, when needed. if you look at things that say representative liz cheney has said, on the floor of the house, about the behavior of former president trump and others, the idea is that perhaps the charge here that may ultimately arise is a conspiracy to obstruct congress, the work of congress, and that has been the justice department's kind of go to charge to describe the very unique political crime that was committed on january 6th. which is simply that by obstructing the peaceful transition of power, that was the crime that was committed. so look, we don't know what charge, if any, may ultimately be brought, but everything kind of points towards the notion of was there an effort to kind of obstruct the work of congress, right at the moment, when lawmakers were doing the very crucial work of certifying the final results of the election. >> does mr. windom have a team? does very considerable resources for this work? >> that's a good question. the short answer to that is there doesn't seem to be a big team yet. that said, we do know that, you know, at least one subpoena has gone out, and he's kind of overseeing that, alexander, as you mentioned in your introduction has been subpoenaed and windom is kind of shepherding that subpoena. whether or not there will be more people assigned to his particular team remains to be seen. don't forget there are 140 federal prosecutors sort of assigned to the investigation writ large. and so the job here is to see if, what is the nexus between the people who are on the ground, and the people who were away from the capitol ground, you know, like i kind of think of it like suits and boots in a way, and so a guy like thomas windom is presumably working closely with other federal prosecutors who are kind of steeped in the boots on the ground basis, so you know, we'll see kind of where that goes as the days and weeks go on. >> we just got about 90 seconds left here, which i regret greatly, but let me just ask you about what i described as the sort of cynicism, the sort of healthy skepticism about the attorney general saying that everybody involved, at every level will face accountability here. what's your bigger picture view as to whether or not the justice department is willing to make even politically fraught determinations, if that's where these, if that's where the suits part of these suits and boots investigation, as you described it, might lead? >> look, you quoted attorney general garland in your introduction, you know, he has said he's going to follow the evidence where it goes, if you look at the case filings, right, it's very, very clear, and has been, from before the emergence of this kind of, you know, expanded vision of this case, that the justice department is very honed in on what effect former president trump's words and actions had on people on the ground. it's apparent in charging documents, it's apparent in what are called statements of offense, when people plead guilty, it's just very clear, if you pay attention to the paperwork, that the justice department is aware of the effect that trump's words have on people on the ground. so you know, whether that results in a criminal case, that's just in the something that we can tell at the moment. i would be surprised if the justice department knew at the moment, but in terms of whether or not they are paying attention to it, it's very clear that they are, and now, we know for certain that the justice department has kind of expanded its gaze, so to speak, and like looked beyond people who were on the ground that day, to those who were off-site, but may have some sort of culpability. >> alan feuer, who covers courts and criminal justice for "the new york times," i appreciate you being here tonight. thank you. >> thanks, rachel. all right. a big show, a big night, i'm well into lawrence o'donnell's territory, i am going to, that's going to do it for me for now, ali velshi will be here tomorrow. "way too early" with jonathan lemire is up next. as minority leader kevin mccarthy is backed in a corner, he denies reporting that he wanted donald trump out after the attacks often january 6th. the new audio obtained by msnbc shows otherwise. we'll play it for you here. plus a horrific discovery outside of an area with a mass grave, and it may be the biggest war crime of the century. new pressure on president biden when it comes to securing the border here at home. this time, from members of his own party.

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