turn in one of the country's two political parties. the party opposes a dire threat to marginalized groups in america. starting here because on tuesday someone tried to do something about it that's michigan senator mallory mcmorrow with a blistering rebuke of a republican colleague's ability to smear her accusing her of grooming children because of her support of lgbtq rights. we'll play a large chunk of it for you to see. watch. >> i didn't expect to wake up yesterday to the news that the senator from the 22 pd district had overnight accused me by name of grooming and sexualizing children in an email fund raising for herself so i sat on it a while wondering why me. and then i realized because i'm the biggest threat to the hollow, hateful scheme. you can't claim that you are targeting marginalized kids in the quote of parental rights if another parent is standing up to say no. so then what? then you dehumanize and marginalize me. you say that i'm one of them, she is a groomer, supporting pedophilia and wants children to be responsible for slavery. here's background about who i am. i sang in the choir. my mom taught ccd. the priest called a meeting with my mom and said she is not living up to the church's expectations. my mom asked why. she was told because she was divorced and because the priest didn't see her at mass every sunday. where was she on sundays? at the soup kitchen with me. she taught me that christianity and faith about being part of a community, recognizing the privilege and blessings and being of service to others, especially people marginalized rkt targeted and had less. i learned that service was far more important than performative nonsense like writing christian in the twitter bio. i am a straight white christian married mom who knows that the very notion that learning about slavery or systemic racism means that children are taught to feel bad or hate themselves because they're white is nonsense. no child alive today is responsible for slavery. but each and every single one of us bears responsibility for the next chapter of history and how we respond to history and the world around us. we also cannot change the past, can't pretend it didn't happen or deny people the right to exist. i want to be clear. call me whatever you want. i hope you brought in a few dollars and helped you sleep good last night. i know i am and what favorite and service means and calls for in this moment. we will not let hate win. >> i love it so much i almost don't have words for it. too early no know right now as we sit together if the speech will change anything but it's my hope that it's the start of something. because instead of ignoring the smears she took them on as a tidal wave of lies and misinformation by the right is sweeping the country. a wave linked to the threat of violent extremism. critical race theory, the accusations that lgbt people are grooming children. served as fuel for a nearly unprecedented new phase and led to book bans. nearly half of all math books were prohibited in florida as well as the rise of don't say gay bills. there's an alarming spike in online harassment and abuse going with it. what can be done about it? matt dowd is here. tim miller is here for the bull work and maya wylie joins us. they've all been picked, not just for experience but compassion and souls and ability to articulate what it is that we need. i think this is what we all needed to hear today, maya. >> we need to hear it, hear it again and again. but equally importantly we all need to recognize that we need to say it. all of us need to say we heard mcmorrow say. one of the things she did that's so important is she humanized herself because the reality of the way the lies and disinformation work it's a fearmongering that paints people in ways that they aren't. and the power of that is to drive fear and use feefr to manipulate and control and therefore enable authoritarianism to rise. she said i am a straight white christian suburban mom and repeatedly because what she wants to say is for all of you who are white, who are christian, who parents, who are suburbanites and feel threatened by a people with a history that are terrible and trying to identify who they are and scares you that we don't have to live this way epa i will challenge it. i am going to stand up and challenge it and do it in all the right ways. do it in a way that makes us a us. not allow anyone to make a us and a them. and that was so important for us all to hear. >> tim, these things on the right and we did the tucker testicular tanning yesterday not as a glib look how crazy they are but they're so far down the rabbit hole on the right to catch it and correct it. this attack about groomers is going on for a while but it is now in the same way that the lie about voter fraud is fueling hundreds of suppression laws predicated on a lie is a force behind ligs legislation that puts kids at risk. talk about the importance of what she tried to stop in the tracks yesterday. >> look. i think what was so strong about that speech and important in pushing back on this is to really demonstrate just how outside the mainstream and how cruel and how inhuman these republican efforts are because here's the thing. what some of these folks are smart. can't treat the republicans that are doing this like they're wild eyed radicals that don't know what they are doing and ron desantis is benefiting politically because he has a short term message we don't want the kids overly sexualized and might be a few examples that we need to protect your kids from and if that's all people hear that's a popular message. calling the friends and neighbors, calling people in the family and that you know who are gay parents or transgender calling them pedophiles and the cruelest thing to think about, that's not going to land well in the suburbs. this is in louisiana right now going further telling teachers to bring back don't ask don't tell and if you're a gay teacher in the classroom you can't talk about the spouse going to the park over the weekend with the kid you have. banning the mart books in florida. there's one math book allowed in florida. dear leader desantis said there's one appropriate math book for the state. they didn't like a line about something related to race or one word problem. a legislator in miami said we can't have a math word problem that said that johnny has two dads. say you're my kid in that class and being told that you can't write as an example in the work book my two dads because a legislature in tallahassee say that you can't. that is very, very radical and unpopular. so the democrats need to take a lesson from the senator there and go on offense and focus on the unpopular elements of what they do and not let republicans define the debate around protecting your kids from sexualization. what they are doing is unpopular and a fight that needs to be had. >> tim, you and i fall into a tradition of profession of focusing on what works and had a conversation about mitch mcconnell. it's a political reality. i worry in covering youngkin and the politics is how well it worked and about desantis how well they serve him. the truth is dehumanization as a tactic for politics is from war. dehumanization is a tactic -- speaking right now. russians get the soldiers to rape children by dehumanizing them. it is a tactic of war. it is being deployed in politics and we sometimes lose the plot and not acceptance but the analysis loses sight of what this speech brings us back to which is dehumanization has a cost right now. right now as it's deployed. kids will die. how do we bring it back to the substance of the harm that's done by a strategy in war and politics of dehumanizing people? >> yeah. i think that's right. i bring up the strategy because what is a counter strategy that works? right. >> yeah. >> the cruelty and inhuman behavior is inexcusable. right? but look. what senator in michigan is bringing up, what are the specific examples of human harm done by this? already. looking in texas, a teacher in dallas who is a gay teacher and might be fired objecting to the fact that the principal taking down rainbow stickers in the classroom. you're going to see examples of real families teachers being harmed, kids bullied. kids who are depressed. maybe self harm. there will be real life examples of this. the senator humanizes herself and we have to humanize the cases of this happening and while hateful people in this world and country and people who are going to like that harm is done to the enemies there are a lot of people to be reached by this in florida and going along with desantis hearing about the wrong things and need to hear about the harm caused. >> matt, i want to show you what mcmorrow said this morning on "morning joe." >> we have seen this rise in trend of hatred and targeting of gay kids and trans kids and black people, then they came from me. it is disgusting and vile. it is a hateful thing for a mother to say about another mother. i'm a mom to a 1-year-old. we have to push back against hateful garbage. everything that i felt the day that i was accused of being a groomer is that much worse for a trans kid who's getting attacked every single day who just wants to go to school and have friends and get through the day. and the response is overwhelming. and my hope is that other white women like me who are doing okay are the ones to stand up and put an end to this because it won't unless we do it. >> what do you think of that? >> i'm going to say i have gotten to be friends with mallory. i was able to have after elected the first time as you know i grew up in michigan. i had breakfast with her after she was elected to the state senate in detroit. her district is the district i went to school in and grew up in. the state senator she is talking about representing two of my brother that is live in michigan. in the course of that, i will pile on. i thought the speech was brilliant, powerful, passionate. this is something that i have been talking about. >> i know. >> this is a tactic of war. we are in a culture war. this is a culture war launched by republicans against the country and the democrats. you don't win a culture war by talking about build back better. you don't win a culture war by talking about you fixed a road. you win a culture road by presenting an argument on the opposite side of the cull which you shall war and win the day and what her message is, is supported by a majority of the country. her message not only relates to all of the suburban voters in this country but shows the marginalized group. somebody is willing to stand up who is in power and have a passionate message that speaks for them. that's what motivates people, persuades people and if the democrats continue on a campaign we are going to ignore the culture war and not have a conversation about guns and marriage and how the kids are pushed around in school and talk about the other issues then we lose. as i said you can be passionate. moderation and the center of the country can be passionate. it is what drove the elections in 2018. what is a pushback of donald trump and i would hope and the views of that video have gotten 10 million views. i hope every democratic strategist understands this is the way we are and ignoring it and not presenting the argument is the way to lose the election. god bless her. she is a friend. she represents the area where i grew up. it is fascinating to me that you now see four women in michigan who are all moms who are all white moms, the governor, the attorney general, the secretary of state and now the state senator mallory mcmorrow located in one state fighting this fight as best they can. >> matthew, something she said about faith, my mom was pulled aside and they disapproved out heifer not being in church. she said we were in a soup kitchen. >> well, obviously that struck with me. this is something that i have tried to talk about. being a christian and been an altar boy and all of that. how the faith is captured by the society who have tried to define it in a way that jesus never defined it and the opposite. and you will note that that state senator that did that to mallory mcmorrow, did it on east every. over the easter holidays and the easter holidays, the message of the gospel was love one another. i have said this before. i'll say it again. if jesus christ was alive today he would be called a groomer, woke and he would be called a socialist if alive today and speaking the message in the gospels today about treating everybody with dignity he hang around with prostitutes and tax collectors. he spoke on behalf of the most marginalized people in the middle east and the segment of the population trying to corrupt a message that i'm a follower of and confirmed and served on the altar in the course of this is something i think all of us -- not just people of faith but whether christian, hindu, buddhist or don't have a faith, the message of love conquers hate is a message we should be pushing but especially christians in the country that can't stand what happened to our faith. >> maya, you're running for office. want to come back to you. not just the power of words but the argument and making it across the country as a counter to the republicans are pushing. we have to bring in a quick break and also learned from the january 6 committee how the ex-president's allies were desperate to get him to unleash the military to keep him in power. now some lawmakers are considering rewriting how that power and act should be used by future presidents. later president biden is meeting with top military leaders why the administration is kring putting even more arms in the hands of ukrainian fighters. after a quick break. don't go anywhere. ♪ ♪ we believe there's an innovator in all of us. ♪ ♪ that's why we build technology that makes it possible for every business... and 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[baby spits out milk] i'll get my onesies®. ♪ “baby one more time” by britney spears ♪ e*trade now from morgan stanley. the bad guys is the winner of the truly moving picture award. oh, stop! you making me blush. it's an action packed animated adventure. show the world that you're more than just a scary stereotype. everyone will love. is this wagging? - good right? we are back with the panel. maya, james carville made a similar point to the argument of matthew dowd. he says this. she spoke english carville told me. not defensive. mcmorrow drew a sharp contrast to republicans andeded in an argument about roads and schools. i'd show this clip as an instructional video. i'm going to start talking that way. do you agree? >> oh, absolutely. i agree with matthew, too, that this is critical for democrats to confront. part of why it was so important to look at how she did it is that you have to have that moral outrage but it also has to be felt as true. and the fact that she personalized it and it's a way for her to say i'm telling you who i am. i'm not pretending to be something different but in doing that she is also actually telling us who we can be. one of the things -- i don't like to call these the culture wars. i don't think it's about cull which you shall by identity and power and the fear of the fact that this plural democracy is becoming much more plural. already a majority of young people are people of color. that we have one marriage equality across this country and seen the fear and the pushback that has come because of it and saying to me that i think is so politically effective is because it's authentic, true, moral and grounded but she is also saying, we, too, belong. i'm a white woman christian mother. i belong. and there's a way for us all to belong so it is a moral outrage calling the question. but it's also positing a view of america is the value that hold dear. it matters politically to confront the lies and disinformation because if you look at hillary clinton and pizza-gate. right? the lie that she was a pedophile and part of a ring operated from a pizza shop but 32% of donald trump voters with respect sure if it was true. they were unsure whether to believe it. it does mat every to stand up to the lies from a place of morality, moral courage, clarity and authenticity. >> she says this. you dehumanize and marginalize me. she goes on, tim, to say i know how that feels for me. i'm sure maya's in the arena. matthew's been in the arena. tim, we have been through a process of disentangling from the party that we once served and believed in. dehumanizing the opponent is a playbook and putting what that is like for her and then called out and the context of trans kid trying to go to school and have friends and fit in, it really i think drives home the consequences of this moment in the politics all across this country. >> yeah. look. i think this is really important. combining carville arguing for with what mallory is saying. i think he said yesterday on the network that republicans are weird and need to call them weird. there's a humanizing on the side and plus going on offense a little bit on the other side. if youngkin is elected because parents are uncomfortable with the school board do you want the people charging the capitol deciding the math books? weirdos talking about mickey and pluto making love and nobody wants them deciding the math books either. there's a way to push down and limit the strength of their argument by pointing out just how odd and extreme it is and then humanizing yourself and pointing out the families that will suffer from this. 5-year-olds -- i have a 4-year-old have she is asking, tommy has one dad. the grandma -- what's the deal? you know you can't ban discussion from a classroom. these kids are learning about the world. thinking about a kindergarten that feels scared to talk about two dads or two moms or divorced parents nobody wants that. that's not poplar. humanizing the people suffering from this and the extremism and how bizarre the efforts are can be a winning message to take on the fight directly. >> the other sort of gift of this speech i think is recentering the conversations. they are harder and get at the essence of who we are and want to be. but the truth is that the people that need to hear it -- i didn't play this but in short order pulled together and could have had it go on for people on fox news attacking groomers. they call it propaganda. laura ingram. when did the schools become grooming centers? tucker carlson, that's creepy. should be arrested. arrested. it goes on and on. i could have aired 30 minutes of jit the fear or the anxiety about who we are as a country is being addressed by the most reckless actors. >> i think to me -- i agree completely. obviously maya, tim and i are in agreement on much of this. the issue i think we have today that leaders and political people and all of us need to recognize is that the fox news and the crazies and the world and the republicans benefit from a fragmented from america and without a shared human american story about who we are and represent. they benefit from that. what they do is this is who we say we are. there's a counter argument to highlight who the republicans are opposed to the fundamental value that is we were raised on, love one another, welcome the stranger, feed the hungry, don't judge people. look at the beam in your own eye before the speck in another. i think this highlights the absolute necessity in america today to convey a story that we as americans can agree with in our heart and head and the american story is we help people in need. we allow far diversity of opinion. we come together to do what's right for america. we don't push our faith on another person. the founding faith is we don't push a faith on another person. part of what democrats do badly is they think elections are about issues. here are the ten issues that are important and americans at the polls and conversations with the neighbors trying to relate to a set of values and there is a set of values shared by a vast majority of the country why tell the truth. be kind. be loving. be compassionate. welcome other people. the shared values. we have to do that in a way to present a unified story because that's the only way out of this mess. because the longer fragmented and the longer tribalized the more successful the hate and the lies of fox news and the republicans will succeed. >> maya, she also has a sort of way to unite the conversation around race. she says no child alive today is responsible for slavery but we have a role to play in the next chapter. move it is whole thing to the future and to matthew's point should be something to agree we want to be better. >> yeah. i think one of the things that we have to be honest about in this conversation though is part of the success of this kind of trumpism within the republican party is the extreme gerrymandering and voter suppression in the republican paefrt that created a structure that's supported and incentivized for crazy. that's what we see in florida. desantis going to stuff black people, separate them so there's less representation and call that democracy. we have seen it in the fact of a lack of republican support for voting rights acts that used to be bipartisan legislation in this country why she is calling on something that -- does it so well. it's extremely important. one thing to remember in this conversation unless we are also working on the actual mechanics of democracy and on the sharing of participation in it, this is going to -- even with good messages if it's gerrymandered out of the process. as the numbers rise. because when i say it is about identity, look at the demographics. white population is shrinking in this country and that insecurity is why we see the attack on bipartisan agreement of owning and sharing the levers of democracy. >> and all those -- a lot of bills target just that. matt, tim, maya, thank you all so much. announcement. mallory mcmorrow will be joy reid's guest here tonight. don't miss that. fearing a repeat of attempts to seize power, lawmakers look at responding to a rebellion to be used in the future. stay with us. every year we try to exercise more, to be more social, to just relax. and eating healthy every single meal? 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there's debate on both sides and perhaps some believe there should be a consultation with congress before the invocation of the act or a stronger definition and these are the discussions that are ongoing right now. >> carol, your book report that is the extremists not the only people checking social media about the donald trump state of mind. you write this. general milley said he believed trump stoking unrest to invoke the insurrection act and call out the military. january 2 milley got a heads up that all ten living former secretaries of defense reached the same conclusion. he was monitoring an app. milley checking it looking for sign of protest, plans for siflt unrest that mike flynn may have stirred up. so this isn't just a concern of the committee but at the highest levels of the u.s. military. >> absolutely. what we have learned in the reporting around the time of that book was that mark milley said that when michael flynn, remember, president trump's most loyal enabler and the people that used to be the national security adviser until he had to be fired for lying to the fbi and facing possible criminal liability and shivers through the defense department brass because on december 17th and 16th flynn was publicly saying that the president of the united states should invoke the insurrection act, quote/unquote re-run the election by seizing the voting machines and basically in all swing states running it over again. this is the kind of thing you hear in countries where dictators are in charge and why people like milley and many others worried about this. they were not ill advised in being worried about flynn's public commentary. they had personally spinsed the trump efts to pressure them saying it's time to invoke the insurrection act. donald trump throughout the summer of unrest had said, look, this is a way to look strong. i will come out against the black lives matters protesters and look tough. the insurrection act is the way to do that. mark esper basically threw his body in front of that. mark esper being the former defense secretary and at the time publicly gave a public news conference infuriating the president saying he was opposed. i think luke is right in describing two views on all of this now about whether or not the panel that's investigating the insurrection should or should not recommend changes to when a president can invoke the act. you can take aimportant power from a responsible president while trying to take power out of the hands of the potential future rogue president. >> it's such a fascinating balance to watch them try to strike and, luke, i guess in normal my question would be irrelevant. is this bipartisan? do the republicans recognize how close esper and milley not leftists in the conversations, do the republicans understand a problem hire? are they participating in efforts to tweak the act itself? >> i'm told any recommendation from the committee will be unanimous and will reach agreement. there were die verging views on the committee in 2020. there were some republican votes, one republican vote for reforming the insurrection act and a handful of democrats that voted against a change to it on the floor of the house. that said, the end of the donald trump presidency presented new dangers in the minds of many that were not present for that vote. when you think about mike flynn and others sitting in the oval office advocating for the seizure of voting machines and know that donald trump tried several different avenues to see if different agencies would be willing to seize voting machines, the trump presidency presented new troubles for democracy that probably were not anticipated for previous presidents so you have a set of laws and a person who doesn't necessarily fit the normal mode of a presidency so it is a difficult question for congress to legislate to ensure this doesn't happen again especially if donald trump is returned to office. next for us, an update to the men accused of impersonating federal agents and duping secret service agents that work for the first lady. more on that story next. we got the house! you did! pods handles the driving. pack at your pace. store your things until you're ready. then we deliver to your new home - across town or across the country. pods, your personal moving and storage team. way day, wayfair's biggest sale of the year is bigger than ever! for two days only, april 27th and 28th, get the lowest prices on thousands of items for your home. shop outdoor furniture up to 65% off... rugs up to 80% off... and lighting up to 65% off... plus, get bonus savings with a wayfair credit card and free shipping on everything! shop way day, our biggest sale of the year. happening april 27th and 28th at wayfair.com. ♪ wayfair you've got just what i need ♪ (all): all hail, caesar! pssst julius! you should really check in with your team on ringcentral. oh hi caesar. we were just talking about you. yeah, you should probably get out of here. ♪ ringcentral ♪ okay everyone, our mission is to provide complete balanced nutrition for strength and energy. woo hoo! ensure, complete balanced nutrition with 27 vitamins and minerals. and ensure complete with 30 grams of protein. ♪ ♪ at vanguard, you're more than just an investor, you're an owner with access to financial advice, tools and a personalized plan that helps you build a future for those you love. vanguard. become an owner. an update to a story we've told you about before. new charges for the two men accused of impersonaing department of homeland security agents. a grand jury indictment includes two counts of unleaful possession of a large capacity device. the men duped secret service agents including ones that protected the white house and first lady jill biden with false stories about working for dhs. four secret service agent haves been placed on leave while the incident is being invest gated. we're back with luke and carol. carol, what's your understanding on the significance of these new charges? >> i guess it means essentially federal prosecutors are not playing. while the secret service leadership continues to say that this is not a major deal, it's not a huge national security problem because in their view no evidence has emerged yesterday, that either of these two take cops, these impostures, neither had special access or secrets the special service was holding particularly about vice president camilkamala harris an president biden and their personal security. federal prosecutors are plunging forward finding there is no evidence of new things that worry them including this ammunition device that was in their possession illegally in their possession for a glock and sigsour and the pistol of choice of the secret service is glocks. it has been for many years. that is interesting in and of itself they're carrying around a secret service weapon. i still feel pretty strongly as a reporter that the unexplained and huge mystery behind all of this is what was the motive of these two individuals? were they part of something larger? or were they two guys who simply wanted to get close to cops and be cops? if so, it was a very expensive hobby that they had giving free rent to secret service agents who just so happen to be people who had regular access to the white house, regular access to the president and the vice president. >> and it's just amazing if you look at -- carol, you know more than anybody, other scandals involving the secret service, it's about the security questions and it's always about the optics of someone that may have not been, you know, on the up and up that close to the most powerful people in the world. what -- does the secret service acknowledge the questions need to be answered at least? >> you know, what they've said to me privately over the last several days is they care deeply about the fact that these four individuals, two agents and two uniformed division officers who helped protect the white house, that they care deeply that all four of them appear to have been so gullible and so naive and so wrongheaded in terms of ignoing their training to look out for people who want to befriend them because of their access to these national security secrets and their access to the core of the leadership of our democracy. so they're worried about the integrity and the sort of core qualities and characteristics of these four individuals but they have insisted to me they do not see a major risk here. meanwhile, their peers and their formers believe strongly and have told me this is a big deal that people who were hired by the secret service went along with accepting things of huge value from people who turned out to be complete phonies. >> and now alleged criminals. thank you both so much for spending some time with us today. when we come back, the war in ukraine pleading for help and what they say is their last chance as russia looks to over take them there. a live report is next. o over take them there. a live report is next. this situation in mariupol is worsening unfortunately. so far we're not able to achieve positive result there. our war, our troops are now defending hundreds of wounded and civilians. i would like to say that everything will be easy and we will have tomorrow to our troops and to our say vil yips in mariupol but i cannot say this. >> hi, again, everybody. it's 5:00 in new york. the crack is ticking and the battered city of mariupol saying they only have hours to live as russian troops pummel that city. take a look. city. take a look. >> days if not hours, that's what they said. that was the commander of ukraine's 36th brigade making that appeal the last stand for ukrainians against russia's advance in the city. the commander said 500 wounded troops and many civilians are with them in the plant and it is for safety he pleads for in the clip this afternoon the prime minister said efforts to open a humanitarian corridor to evacuate thousands of civilians in mariupol did not work as planned. they will try again tomorrow. meanwhile, rattling from vladimir putin that announced the test of a new ballistic missile which nato calls satan two. putin is trying to send a signal to the west but the defense ministry notes the weapon needs more testing before it can be deployed as the russian on slot in the donbas region continues, they say russian soldiers continue to pour into eastern ukraine as they face heavy artillery. this as the west continues ef efforts to punish russia for the atrocities in ukraine. germany's foreign minister said berlin will end russian oil imports by the end of the year and this afternoon the biden administration announced sanctions against russia. these targeting a russian bank and sanctions evaders including those using crypto currency. that's where we start the hour. ally is live in ukraine. the ukrainian commanders in mariupol have turned to these very public appeals in an interview with the new york times i think they asked for help from the united states directly. still working for humanitarian corridor. they've tried this before, this situation was so dire with little success. what is the prospect for evacuating any civilians at this point? >> reporter: hi, nicole. it a truly horrendous situation there and as you said in the introduction, there was a convey of buses heading from the region trying to get into mariupol today up to 60 buses. they wanted to get up to 6,000 people out of there but again, the russians didn't honor that corridor, which they said they would. they left and forced people to stay. the hopes are not high to get them out again until that city finally falls into russian's hands because they're using the civilians as pawns to gain traction in that city, which they have devastated over the last 56 days and it's a desperate situation for the tough fighters that have been fighting so hard against the russians there. you can see the desperation on their faces and video messages. we saw a video message from different to one of the marines you showed now. those are the guys saying they're going to fight until the last drop of blood, until the last bullet in that city. they have some family members in that city because they live there and we saw a video from the deputy commander of the brigade. he was saying look, if a peace deal can be made, if some sort of agreement can be made with a third party because they don't trust the russians, it has to be broken by maybe the turks or somebody to get them and their families and the rest of the residents of mariupol out of there, they'll take it because they know time is not on their side. they're out numbered. they're out gunned and it's only going to be time before the russians kill them all so that's how desperate these guys have become to vow to fight to the death. they say listen, maybe it's time to get out of here because all of us will get killed in here and at least it would give them a chance to get their family out and for those very hardened fighters, it will give them an opportunity to live and fight another day in this very brutal battle but the reality is, nicole, all the signs are mariupol is probably going to fall into russian hands pretty soon and that's going to be an unmitigated disaster, a disaster for the ukrainians and just what vladimir putin wanted leading up to the 9th of may, which is victory day in russia where they celebrate the nazis surrendering in 1945. >> you and i talked about mariupol because it's been the site of some of the most brutal and blatant targeting of civilians from the largest scale we know about since the war began and when you hear we started with the press conference from president zelenskyy saying we can hope but even president zelenskyy is trying to guard his country for what? what are the fears? are the fears about the toll paid by the civilians or what is sort of anxiety in the country if what you said comes to pass? again, i think we've all learned better than to count any ukrainian fighters out. nobody is doing that. in their own words, they're saying we probably have days left to live. >> reporter: exactly. look, mariupol is such a pivotal city in this war. somewhere the russians have been trying to get since day one and because it's so important, that's why those fighters have been fighting so hard there and they didn't want to give vladimir putin that victory. it creates a land corridor from the russian mainland up to the donbas region. it gives them control over the sea of azof and the black sea and will give vladimir putin a victory in the war, which hasn't happened. it would be the most major city to fall into russian hands. they would probably have an ods victory parade there and we've seen them taking down ukrainian flags and places they captured and would probably have a big military parade in a city decimated by the russians. this is a city that's been completely destroyed, burned, bombed and raped by the russians. there are dead bodies laying all over the place and now vladimir putin can celebrate that as a victory. >> thank you for your reporting today. please stay safe. >> thank you. joining our coverage, national security reporter for foreign policy magazine and bobby, editor and columnist for bloomberg opinion. we have shifted in someways too clinically into what everyone is describing as a new phase. it does come with a new way of talking about russian failures and successes and we want to pick up bobby on something i was saying to ally. there were these presumptions about russian superiority that have fallen by the wayside and talking about mariupol, they feel they may only have days to live and that's why they're asking for a third party to mediate and aid the civilians. it's only in that context we talk about a potential russian victory there but it has been a lot longer for the russians to have what they thought would be, you know, sort of the russian propaganda, a layup for them military and here we are. what do you make of that? >> well, we have to go back two months to the start of the war, the start of the invasion and the russians thought they could win and take kyiv in a matter of days. at most a couple weeks, two months later they failed to take kyiv and withdraw from kyiv and the only thing they can do is basically try to destroy everything standing in the city. there is no question of trying to win hearts and minds and no effort to preserve anything in the city they themselves might use later. they're lobbying as much ammunition as they possibly can, which is devastating to the city and creates enormous pain and human trama but also a sign of desperation, it shows that nothing else is working. remember, this is for decades we've been encouraged to think of the russian army, russian military as a sophisticated military machine that's capable of taking on major western forces and here up against a very small ukrainian opposition, they have basically been forced to resort to group tactics for another generation from another kind of war, this is squuls trud crude bombing of the city. >> this is a topic of a piece you've written on this. i want to read what you're reporting. you write this, ukrainian officials estimate that some 100,000 civilians remain trapped in this city. david beasley head of the world food program warned they were being quote starved to death. an update on the war issued by the ukrainian embassy in washington noted more than 1,000 civilians including women and children remain in the basement of the steel plant. quote, this is what hell on earth looks like. that's major commander of ukraine's 36th marine brigade, which is still in the city. he wrote that in a letter to pope francis this week published in english later. i have little time to describe the horrors i see every day. women with children and babies are living in bunkers at the factory. they are hungry and cold. you also report on the military significance of mariupol still being in ukrainian control, not yet falling to russia. i wonder what you make of the final pleas by video to the united states and the west to help with the civilian population that remains there. >> it's been so heartbreaking in the past couple of days to see those remaining forces that have so bravely defended mariupol and now for several weeks as bobby said, against a much better arm than what we all thought would be a much more formidable power in russia. it really been heartbreaking to see the pleas coming out and just the desperation that many saying that they have days and if not hours to live. one of the other things that i wanted to kind of note in that piece that we published today is there's a lot to say about what the fall of mariupol could mean for russia tactically and strategically in this war but another factor is we don't know what exactly what has gone on in mariupol in the seven weeks. we know it quite probably something horrific based on what we're hearing from people leaving the city and of course, when those revelations came out about what went on in bucha, everybody's next thought is what does this mean for mariupol, which is bigger than russia. in the event this city does, is beginning to see inevitably fall, that will block human rights investigators, forensic investigation tors from going into the city to use for a potential war crimes case to bring the perpetrators of this to justice. there is a lot of questions how will we piece together and how do we ever fully know what went on in this city over the past several weeks and how are you people responsible going to be brought to account in the future. >> amy, i want to read from this section of your piece because it's just haunting. i'm sure it will haunt all of our viewers for awhile. this is the description of what should happen. bodies found could be taped off until there is a recovery and analysis of the remains. this is deputy director of the division at human rights watch. ballistic experts would assess the types of weapons used, the direction from where launched and any signs of disproportionate use of force. quote, there is a serious concern that aside from the need to recover bodies to get an estimate of the numbers of civilian casualties from the bombing and shelling, there would need to be a forensic examination of the bodies of people who died as a result of some execution and other types of violence. this fear of not being able to hold the russians accountable seems to be, you know, to what i was asking ali about, what is gripping the ukrainian political leadership and civilian population as much as sort of the psychological impact that would be to see mariupol fall after such valient fighting. weinvestigators on the ground. this is an entirely different circumstance if russians control it. does the global community get involved? do satellite images get involved? what does it look like? >> we just don't know at this point. in terms of satellite imagery, even commercially available satellite imagery from groups from organizations such as maxr did show in the case of bucha quite physically there were bodies lying of the ground and so, those have not come to light yet from mariupol, we do have some satellite images from the city showing just the extent of the devastation there but it's -- we haven't yet seen that granular level. the other thing of course is what this means for the families. families that have relatives left in mariupol who have had difficulty getting in contact with them, communications have been cut off. you know, there is been great difficulties getting food and fresh drinking water into the city and so even for the families in all of this, it's finding out what is happening to the relatives, where are they and what is going on? i can't imagine the heartbreak that so many current and former residents of mariupol are going through right now. >> bobby, i'm coming to you. i want your thoughts on just how quickly the horrors came to be the reality. eight weeks ago, they were going about their lives. we talk about the war on the donbas going on for years. taylor talks about a hot war. but that's not the circumstance in mariupol and when you see the president sort of speaking with this characteristic optimism and drive and unrelenting ability to tell the story over and over to get help, you start to see despair. >> well, yes, i mean, mariupol is city that will come crashing down when and if it falls. on investigations, the one thing that modern investigators are used to looking for is cell phone photographs and videos taken by survivors, people fleeing. the russians are trying to conceal atrocities. in some cases, they themselves are taking pictures and publishing them and sharing them. we have seen other places that radio intercepts russians are using open channels to boast about some of the horrific things they've done. so there is hope that investigators will be able to piece together quite a lot of evidence in this manner. but yeah, i mean, none of us can begin to imagine the horrors that the people were still civilians were still in mariupol have endured. to months ago they were a beautiful port city and now they're not only have many of them been forced to flee, not only are those who are still there now sort of in danger of losing their lives and limbs, but also the knowledge at the back of their minds even if and when all of this is over, they're going to have to rebuild their city. their city, if you've seen from the images is levelled. nothing that is still standing can be rebuilt without having to be taken down and started up from scratch. so the pressure, the psychological toll from that is enormous not just on the folks off mariupol but all ukrainians including zelenskyy himself and because this brigade held out so long, there is a boy standing in the burning deck quality of this. the whole world willing them to succeed, willing them to hold out. that, you know, heaven forbid but if that finally ends in tragedy, there is a bit of a toll on all of us even those looking from the comfort of our homes in new york and washington even we will feel a sort of psychological blow from that. again, let's all hope that doesn't happen but that's how it looks most likely to play out. >> to your point, someone made the observation this week that when we show pictures of what we have of mariupol, they look like they're in black and white. they're not. we're not showing black and white footage but everything is reduced to dust. some of that is the dust and some of that is just the -- what the city looks like bombed out, shelled to near oblivion. thank you both so much for being part of this conversation and for starting us off this hour. we're really grateful. after the break for us, a steering look at the human suffering among ukrainian refugees from one of our friends on the ground today in poland plus, confusion over the white house path forward after a judge said that all americans, all travelers could shed their masks on public transit and a peek into president joe biden's plans for 2024. what he's telling president obama. we continue after a quick break. don't go anywhere. r a quick bre. don't go anywhere. 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what does a picture look like in terms of support and sort of a new normal and a new support network for just one child who lost a parent in the war? >> yeah, so, you know what the normal reflex, of course, it's understandable when they get -- when refugees come across to poland or moldova, wherever it may be is make sure they're fed and sheltered and protected and there is a lot of things going on. in terms of the psychological effects, nicole, there is something that must be done immediately and the restoration of stability and normalities is really what this is all about so getting kids into a stable home, making sure the moms and parents are themselves stabilized and helped so they can parent appropriately and then getting kids back into school and back into some routine with enough support, most children will be resilient and they will be able to get better but what happens now will make all the difference with what's going to be happening with them months and years to come. so it's a question of getting those initial services in place so that no child is left behind. there is kids sitting at the reception centers in poland drawing pictures sitting on the floor, pictures of bombs coming on their houses and bodies in streets. and you can imagine if that is what they're expressing externally, what must be happening internally. they're delicate and fragile but it won't take all that much to get them stabilized and seeing a future possibility if we can provide the appropriate services right now. >> every single child and if they're with their mothers, every single woman has likely left behind a husband, a father, a son. what is this support like for what is an influx in poland and other counties of all women and children? >> well, the whole thing is extremely difficult and there is two fundamental problems that are presented to the people that are trying to help the refugees. first is, there is very little appropriate coordination among the agencies and there is issues that are not resolved because people don't know what other people are doing in terms of programs. the second thing is scale. so you'll have some very good programs that may be dealing with a couple hundred, even a few thousand but we're talking about millions of people that are now in jeopardy here and the other thing, i spoke with one of the senior officials at the usa id yesterday who told me that we've never seen the velocity of this disruption since world war ii. in other words, yes, there are scale problems. yes, there is coordination problems but how fast this has developed because of the verocity of the war in ukraine overwhelms the agencies. there is a lot of work that needs to be done. i think it will happen. the question is, you know, later, may be too late for many children especially and for the moms even coming without their husbands now 90% of the refugees have recently been people without their husbands and that is very difficult. it's a whole other level of stress. it's bad enough to be disruptive. it's much worse if you don't have your support system with you, which is the spouses of these people plus they're terrified that their husbands will get killed in the violence that's on going in ukraine. just a horrendous situation obviously, most of the people in ukraine but the people being able to leave and get at least basic protection, it's really horrible as well, nicole. >> so when you get back, i'd love for you to sit around this table and we'll get a good group and talk about i think a lot of people are helping. i know a lot of people in their places through schools are helping. i would love your thoughts about what other ways people can reach out and support especially these kids and these young moms and vulnerable populations who as you said are all on the run. doctor, thank you for spending some time with us from poland. we're grateful. thank you. on friday, our own richard engel will be reporting on the ground in ukraine. he'll be shining a light on the resiliency of the ukrainian people in the face of this horrible war. you can catch "on assignment" here on friday at 10:00 p.m. eastern and streaming on peacock, as well. after the break for us, strong albeit funny words from stephen colbert on the florida judge that overturned the public transit mask mandate. that is next. transit mask mandate that is next ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ we believe there's an innovator in all of us. ♪ ♪ that's why we build technology that makes it possible for every business... and every person... to come to the table and do more incredible things. my a1c stayed here, and every person... it needed to be here. ruby's a1c is down with rybelsus®. my a1c wasn't at goal, now i'm down with rybelsus®. mom's a1c is down with rybelsus®. 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(♪ ♪) ask your healthcare provider about rybelsus® today. out of the blue a federal judge struck down the mask mandate for planes and public transport, which is great news for anyone whoever rode public transport and said this is way too sanitariry. no surprise. the ruling comes from a tampa based federal judge. you can't let florida make health decisions for the entire country. the judge clarified her ruling explaining wearing a mask cleans nothing. at most, it traps virus drop lets. that's the mask job you dummy. so my droplets don't get on you. that's like saying this diaper is useless. every time i put one on my baby, it fills up with poop. that's not doing anything. [ laughter ] >> oh, what a week, tanning and now poop. we can laugh but sweeping in unexpected nature of the court order did catch a lot of people by surprise and caused anxiety. the biden administration said it would appeal only if the cdc decides that an extension of the federal mask mandate is necessary. in the meantime, people are free to take off their mask when they are on airplanes or trains or buses or in airports in train stations. even uber and lyft have changed therequirement. when you call one you don't have to attest to wearing a mask. videos of people celebrating far and wide, there is a study conducted that suggestion the majority of americans, 59% favored an extension of a mandate for masks on public transit. let bring in msnbc medical contributor, pulmonologist and global health expert and white house correspondent, co-author of politico's playbook and the host of the on brand podcast. what should happen? >> nicole, good afternoon. it's important this is an important time and i hope the white house decides to push back as informed by the cdc's policies because sanitation, this concept, this word here that's been used by this federal judge has been distorted and it's important now that we modernized definition of sanitation to be cleaning the air around us in whole because the dirt in front of us as cleaned by a clorox wipe might have been our concept of sanitation for the last -- for the entire part of the 20th century. clean things with a disinfectant because sewage and the problems related to just making sure surface bacteria were cleaned, that's been the concept of sanitation. now it's air sanitationsanitati. making sure the air around us is clean because of the pandemic or air pollution. if there is not deterrence now, it will spell trouble down the road. the air around poses a risk to global public health so we have to push back now. >> ukraine, the white house seems to be trying to balance the science as they always have and expertise with public sentiment. tell me where that lands them in determining whether or not they will appeal this mandate, this knocking down of the mask mandate on public transportation. >> yeah, so the white house is saying that that is something that the cdc is going to decide. the doj has said and made very clear that they are ready and willing to appeal this ruling if the cdc tells them that they want to do that and kind of the calculations within administration, the conversation happening within administration are twofold. one, we have to -- administration believes they have to defend the authority of the cdc and maintain the authority of the cdc to make these kinds of decisions in the future because this is likely, i'm not a doctor but likely not the only type of public health emergency that this country will see from now into the future so they want to make sure the cdc has that but they know if they do appeal and they lose, does that chip away at the authority of the cdc? they're trying to walk a tight rope here because there is difficulty in trying to make a decision on that piece of it. but they say they are ready and willing to do what the doj if the cdc gives them the go ahead. administration, the white house is continuing to say they recommend that people wear masks, the cdc continues to say that people should wear masks on planes and trains and buses. because it's not just about what is happening in the vehicles but how are people behaving before they get on there? not just how the air is circulating on the train but what was someone doing before they got into the airport? they have a huge concern and politically, there were folks hoping that the administration themselves would be able to say at some point after the 15 days were up that extension that the cdc put forth, would be able to pull that and say we were the ones to be able to give you freedom from the masks so to speak but hoping to get information on how the covid variant was going to play out because it's been playing out differently in europe. >> so donnie, i mean, the clear victims are the vulnerable americans among us and i understand the trepidation that someone with a child is immune compromised or a child under 5 who isn't vaccinated feels. i also understand that this administration is really clear eyed about public fatigue with all efforts to mitigate the spread of a deadly virus. where do you see that analysis? >> i see it more on the ladder. i think it's interesting. it's hard to give something to americans whether it's health care and take it away. it's hard to give people the freedom and take that back. i think they would be best served to move on and let somebody else deal with this. if they get in the way and they're like okay, we want to put the mandate back, i think -- this is my gut. i know the poll doesn't say this. my gut says people are ready to move on and let people make choices. by the way, it was interesting joe was talking about it this morning he was on a flight and said 80% of the people had masks and no tension. i think the country doesn't mean the country is right but i think the country sentiment is ready to kind of move on and it's going to be hard to i think put the tooth paste back in the tube now. he's got bigger fresh to fry, particularly inflation so i'd leave it alone. >> dr. gupta, do you want to offer a counter point from the medical community. >> to donnie's point there is fatigue. the precedent sensing and providing a deterrence in the future for the cdc, for another judge to do something similar down the road is easy to do this again down the road if the cdc recommends a mandate come winder 2022. you're probably going to see some reimplantation of pressures because we expected that surge. half of the precedence now is a dangerous expectation we're building in. i also say there will be arbitrariness. there will be some arbitrariness to when this mask mandate was going to end anyway. it's probably going to end some time in may anyways. there is some combination are hospitals at a place now they're comfortable plus, nicole, are vaccines available to under 5 as you mentioned and is there a rising supply of anti viral. we're not there yet but i do think pushing back to provide deterrence for this happening again will be key. >> thank you for spending time with us. what president biden is telling former president obama about his plans for reelection. stay with us. plans for reelection stay with us okay, snacks and popcorn are gonna be expensive. let's just accept that. going to the movies can be a lot for young homeowners turning into their parents. bathrooms -- even if you don't have to go, you should try. we all know where the bathroom is and how to us it, okay? 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(camera shutters) or the places we didn't go. ♪ ♪ . there is a presidential election coming up in 2024 -- >> you're kidding? >> yes, it's true. and there are wide spread concerns in europe that a figure like your predecessor, maybe your predecessor himself might get an active president again. so are there any steps, anything you're trying to do and nato is trying to do here these days to prevent what you're trying to do becoming undone two years from now? >> no. that's not how i think it is. i've been dealing with foreign policy for longer than anybody involved in this process right now. i have no concern for impact. i don't blame or criticize you for asking that question, but the next election i'd be very fortunate if i had that same answer. >> president joe biden about a month ago in brussels, clear confidence on display in his own leadership at home and abroad and a possible second round against the guy he ran against last time, donald trump. this week, "the hill" is reporting sources say biden wants to run in 2024 and he's quote clearly letting everyone know and he told former president obama that he plans to do so. sources tell "the hill" they believe the biggest factor sources told the hill that biden is still the only person in the democratic party who can defeat donald trump. we're back with eugene and donnie. eugene, he did beat donald trump two years ago. i question the dismissing -- i mean, this has been reported from our european allies since the transition, since the period in which joe biden won in november and donald trump was still there and now we know he was fulmenting the deadly insurrection. this is a very real concern that trump and trumpism remain virulent and descendent in the united states of america. was he trying to soothe the waters among the international press or do they not see donald trump sort of persistent and enduring power in the republican party? >> i think this administration, i think that joe biden himself would say that they themselves have concerns about how the party -- the republican party is still the party of trump, right? >> yeah. >> evidence after evidence has happened over the last few months and that will continue through the mid terms, right? so they know that. i think president biden was trying to soothe folks saying just because you see trump, there is another side in this country that doesn't believe the election was stolen, that wasn't trying to overturn an election. biden will tell anybody it seems behind the closed doors, talk to anyone who's talked to him that he is going to run, especially and they say especially if trump runs. in biden world, president biden himself, they do believe that he's the only person that can beat donald trump. so far that's the best evidence we have but they also -- you know, there's the age question, which is what is under girding all of the questions about whether or not he's going to run in 2024 but i will say age is not that different. 75 and 79 with trump being 75 and president biden being 79. that's something folks will point out when you ask them whether or not age is a factor. president biden is going to run again especially if president trump runs. >> democrats have nobody else. >> biden did beat donald trump. >> he did. there's two ways of looking at biden at this point. you can look at the numbers, which are horrific lately, particularly with the numbers underneath the numbers. particularly in the latest quinnipiac numbers. 18 to 34 he has 23% approval rating. i still think though biden is the best chance because he's still the anti-trump. when people didn't vote for biden the first time embracing him, it was just like anybody but trump. and i think when trump comes back, if he does come back, you and i were talking off camera, probably he will -- >> because i said off camera, what else is he going to do? wasn't anything astute. >> i believe the numbers are very much for trump and trumpism. i believe his act will seem a little tired. biden beat him last time by 7 million votes. you have january 6th on top of that. you don't have any of the wow trump factor. his bits are the same. i'm not saying they don't appeal to republicans. you have 70% of republicans who think the election was rigged. his message gets back out there. i keep fast forwarding. when you talk about the swing states and the states swang for biden, i don't see them swinging back to trump. >> i forever imprinted by a line by aaron sorkin. on election day people care about what i tell them to care about. why can't the democrats think about that. inflation causes families pain and despair. donald trump can't condemn biden as a war criminal. >> he doesn't seem to be delivering the message in a strong way. it's a visceral thing. you have the best job numbers you've ever had in our lifetime. you've got what he's done in ukraine. you can't do a better job. you look at the alternative in trump. he still doesn't deliver it in authority. even that clip you delivered, it's a month old, he doesn't seem to be that old. something is not translating. the more people i talked to, even democrats seem to feel that. why is he not punching harder. come across with more strength and bravado. he can use a little bit of what trump had frankly. >> you would say in that forum he was trying to be a states man, trying to be reassuring. but to all the things we're talking about, what's your sense of where the white house is in changing -- widening the conversation. >> especially as we get closer, i'm told we're going to see a more aggressive biden. the white house receives the lack of want to legislate. we're going to see if that's something they're going to do and if president biden is able to do that they have a much better chance and they see the stamp right now. >> thank you so much. it's great to see you here. >> come. come any day. >> i'm going to bring cold cuts. >> i'm in here by myself for hours and hours. and we need more time. so, 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"the beat" with ari melber starts right now. >> thank you, nicole. we begin with this news on the republican assault on civil rights and free speech. this is all part of florida governor ron desantis's attack. his turn on disney after going after equal rights. it started with the so-called don't say gay bill. that was signed into law last month. today they have a bill punishing disney financially because the company stood by what it calls its values as well as many of its employees who may identify as lgbtq who may want to visit