Transcripts For MSNBC Deadline White House 20240708 : compar

brand-new blockbuster reporting in "the new york times" pulls the curtain back on this new push by the stop the steal movement, which is based on the completely baseless idea that the 2020 election, which of course took place more than 15 months ago now, can be in the words of that movement's leaders, desert fied. quote, allies of mr. trump including the lawyer john eastman are pressing for states to pass resolutions rescinding electoral college votes for president biden and to bring lawsuits that seek to bring baseless claims of large scale voter fraud. some of those allies are casting their work as a precursor to reinstating the former president and even though there is no chance, zero chance, that the election will be decertified, this election has the potential for seeding more chaos, especially as the ex-president plots another run from the white house in mmxxiv. democrats an somes have raised concerns about the efforts. they warn of unintended consequences including the potential to incite violence of the sort that erupted on january 6th. legal experts worry that the focus on decertifying the last election could pave the way for more aggressive and earlier legislative intervention the next time around. as former judge michael ludwig who made those startling comments about a clear and present danger puts it, quote, trump and his supporters in congress and in the states are preparing now to lay the ground work to overturn the election in 2024 where trump to lose the vote. among the people peddling this version of the big lie, some of the same people who are being investigated by the committee. include john eastman himself. steve bannon and former national security adviser to donald trump, michael flynn. the role of these people in fomenting the deadly violence on january 6th is one of the most crucial questions right now. new reporting brings top trump allies closer than ever to some of the biggest instigators of violence that day. text messages show members of the oath keepers discussing providing security for a number of figures. from politico, top members now facing conspiracy charges chatted for days about providing security for some of the highest profiled figures associated with donald trump's effort to overturn the election. that's according to a newly released trove of text message the founder and top allies like kelly megs discussed plans to provide security for figures like roger stone, alex jones, ali alexander and michael flynn on january 5th and 6th, describing potential partnerships with other groups and security details. the continuing threat posed by the big lie amid new revelations about the insurrection is where we start the hour. jackie is here, "washington post" congressional investigations reporter. also, charlie sykes and with us onset, mike schmidt, "new york times" washington correspondent whose byline is on the times reporting about the national desertification efforts. all msnbc contributors. mike, obviously what jumped out at us was the quote from the judge. explain who he is and the significance of his comments. >> so he is a leading conservative legal voice. he was someone who was considered by george w. bush to be the chief justice of the supreme court. he was an appeals court judge. he is someone that people on the right look to on major legal issues of the day. it was significant that around the time of january 6th, he came out and said that there was nothing to the eastman claims that pence could essentially pick whatever president he wanted or whatever they were cooking up and such. so what he is saying is look, the band is back together and it's coming to a state legislature near you and that is a huge problem. that's what he's saying in that quote. he is saying look, the fact that this is continuing not only has the impact of undermining the election in 2024, but it erodes democracy all together. >> you know, jackie, it's very much the sort of ideological underpinning behind liz cheney's conduct on the committee. it's not just about looking backward and understanding how the u.s. capitol became the sight of a deadly insurrection. it's about preventing the destruction of our democracy moving forward. how does that stay alive, if you will, and how is it that there are still only two republicans interested in participating in that effort? >> i think, nicolle, as we get closer to these public hearings and lawmakers on the january 6th committee investigating the attack on the capitol are owning and sharpening the central argument of this presentation that they're going to be giving, we are going to hear this point made exactly over and over again, that the insurrection happened, but it's still going on in various different forms and has really taken hold of the entire republican party as a rationale for a lot of the legislative changes potentially and proposals that we're going to see come out of this committee. for example, something that has already garnered some bipartisan support are some changes to the electoral vote count of88 something that has become a rallying cry for these constitutional scholars like john eastman because no matter how many people have dismantled eastman's constitutional theories, he does, at the end of the day, you know, know the law inside and out and is going to continue to argue in circles around some of these things that he's continued to propagate until there are some actual legislative remedies that are at least in the hopes of lawmakers serving on the panel, are ultimately passed as a result of their work. >> he's also accused of breaking the law. felony laws by a federal judge who looked at his conduct and donald trump's and said it's more likely than not that john eastman and donald trump committed felony criminal acts. my question for you is how is john eastman, and he's in your state, you live in the state where it happened. how is he sort of lifted up still by this version of the republican party to continue to spread what the judge describes as the clearest and gravest threat to our democracy? >> first of all, this is really a hell of a story and that's a hell of a story from the judge, who as mike said is very well-known in conservative legal circles and very, very well respected and measures his words. so when he says this is a clear and present danger, people ought to pay attention. and the fact is that it reminds us this an ongoing coup. yes, it's preposterous that you were talking about decertifying the election, but this is feeding those doubts and it is laying the groundwork for future action. also, it is providing more oxygen to this vast network of grifters, charlene la ton and demagogues who continue to push these big lies. for your listeners, if you spent any time in this alternative reality of the right, this is a very big deal. here in wisconsin, you have a republican candidate for governor who is running very explicitly with donald trump's personal encouragement on the platform of decertifying the election here in wisconsin despite the fact there is no evidence whatsoever. whatever's been happening since january 6th, you have these folks who are escalating it. they have no sense of shame whatsoever. they are getting encouragement from mar-a-lago and this is becoming, i think, the new litmus test for many republicans. i do think that it poses a real danger going forward in undermining confidence in elections. i don't think it's overstated at all. >> i want to read what you report about what's happening in wisconsin, mike. mr. eastman wrote a memo and mr. epstein sent an e-mail to the legislature late year pushing a bill in wisconsin laying out a legal theory. mr. eastman met last month with the speaker of the state assembly, an activist working across the country. meeting with this reporter earlier by the milwaukee journal sentinel. aligned with the guidance of its own lawyers. what's amazing is that these movements, mike, are extrajudicial even in the states where they're happening. who's providing the legal architecture? >> well, it's eastman, but i think that when we look at this, we have to think about two things. what if this work had gone in in the year leading up to the 2020 election. how much more successful would trump have been? and because we walk so close to the edge, i think that you have to think well, if they have just done more work on the front end they may have been more successful on the back end. >> that's the judge's point. this is an advance of 2024 and this is a ploy by trump. >> and do you think that if the election is close after state legislatures have been indoctrinated with this stuff from eastman, that they are going to easily certify the elections and that the post election period will be seamless? i think that, i mean, as we've said here, it is not only does it undermine the public's confidence in the election, but it puts the political situation in place for something in 2024 to be much easier to contest and i think that public confidence in the elections is one thing, but to actually upend the election process in a greater way than 2020 is even scarier. >> well, and jackie, not to put this all at the feet of the 1/6 committee on the democrats, without the two republican members, but is there a sense that asymmetry that all of the audacity and norm busting and all of the effort to do something totally corrupt and anti-democratic is on the trump side and the effort on the side is very slow. it's very bureaucratic and in some ways, at least in the case of the merrick garland justice department, very timid in terms of the audacity in terms of the conduct on the other side. >> yeah, well i think there's a bit of a conservative effort amongst some democrats and at least in the justice department to sort of regain and rebuild some of these institutional norms, but that does really go out the window when then bad actors continuing to bust these norms and normalize that. i also think there's potentially a bit of a legal case like john eastman and bannon who were all embroiled in various legal problems at the moment are making as they continue to argue that this case, overturn the results of the election. they note this in their piece, that you know, by continuing to make this same argument over and over again, it potentially makes his case that he wasn't defrauding the american people because he truly believes this. this is something the committee argues over and over again. we've seen them try to, person by person, show that trump was systemically told that he was not, did no have a constitutional basis to overturn the results of the election and they've been trying to prove that trump was acting corruptly by continuing to spread these lies about the election after he had lots of reason to know that he had already legitimately lost. but john eastman on the other hand is sort of playing devil's advocate there and continuing to make the case that trump was acting with some sort of legal basis and that you know, potentially invalidating this fraudulent case. >> we've been over what his intent was. charlie, i want to go back to a point about what is main lined into the trump base and to the right of american politics because most of our conversations about disinformation are about the disservice to its adherence. whether they're taking steve warmer, whether they believe putin is great when he's, you know, a homicidal war criminal. but in terms of what they believe about our democracy and about our elections, it seems to have very dire consequences for the country. this is steve bannon on desertification. watch. >> the return of trump and it ain't going to be in 2024. it's going to be in 2022 or maybe before as we start the desertification process in arizona. >> we know from the judge there that, we've talked to reince priebus. wisconsin is the most provable in the certification of biden electors. >> we are going to fix 2020. i hope that we're going to desert fi 2020. how about you? >> it sounds whacky. we don't talk about this every day, but this is happening every day on the right. this desertification effort. >> it's insane and deeply dishonest that this is happening here. there is no prospect that they're going the overturn the election in the state of wisconsin. let me just amplify mike's points because i had thought about this a lot. that if you play the tape back and imagine this was all taking place before 2020, what if the people voting, the handful of election officials that basically block the attempt to steal the election were not in place. what if you had had months and years of prepping the ground for legislatures to think that they ought to overturn the popular vote. how might 2020 have turned out differently? well, that's exactly what's happening for 2024. so this is happening in every single one of the cases. donald trump is focused like a laser beam on targeting the elections officials, the positions that in fact protected the integrity of the 2020 election to make sure that they are replaced by people who would be more loyal to him. so this is, this is very, very dangerous and i do think that after 2020 when this came up, the possibility of overturning the election, it was a completely novel, crazy idea for most republicans. now republicans understand that they have to address this. that the base demands it. that they will be hammered on it. and you know, here in wisconsin, robin voss, the speaker you mentioned, i know him quite well, who said there's no chance to desert fi the election, he's responsible for running this sham investigation into nonexistent voter fraud. even republicans who understand this is dishonest are going along with this. going through the motions. in and of itself, that's dangerous for setting the table for what might happen after the 2024 election. >> asked about the league architecture, because everything that happens in trump world is somehow, we've talked about as the chaos and mayhem. the forethought that's going into an election four years away, is there an effort that donald trump has engaged in that's been more sort of focused and targeted with a longer term goal? he's going to have four years of a jump-start of putting big lie adherence into election offices of having john eastman in wisconsin and i imagine this is going on all over the country of we call them fraud its. but in the context of what is being seeded, it seems the efforts to keep counting and recounting certainly serve the larger cause of calling out the results of 2020. >> it does call into account 2020, but it also has the impact of potentially creating things that we cannot see. if i said to you or to many folks in the aftermath of the 2020 election after biden was declared the winner that a bunch of outsiders who don't work in the white house, who do not have strong establishment reputations were going to work with donald trump on a bogus legal idea to overturn the election and that was going to end up with thousands and thousands of people massed at the steps of the capitol to try and stop this certification, you probably, most people would probably say the chances of that are low. so what i'm saying is that once you start to inject these new variables in, who knows what's going to happen. so the election's not going to be desertdecertified, but what this mean to those in wisconsin who oppose this? we could not have necessarily predicted january 6th, but it was an outgrowth of this stuff that we would normally think wouldn't work. bogus legal theories. people that don't have establishment reputations and a president unbound by norms. so what happens, what else could happen? we can't predict the future, but the chances of something else happening i think are only increased by the more that they push this. >> and charlie, i want to give you the last word on this sort of realignment. the realignment is complete, right? so trump hijacks the republican party. we think it's about grabbing women between the legs and people like rob portman sort of giving that a place inside a party that we once thought he held up in a different way. it's really not what it's about at all. it's about dismantling the pillars of our democracy itself. of casting so much doubt in institutions that only a doj that punishes donald trump's enemies is non-corrupt and one that investigates his family is corrupt. anything that results in anything else is corrupt. where does this end? >> i honestly don't know. that's the key question. where does it end? it could end very, very badly. you know, no one saw january 6th coming. the, i think the chances for violence surrounding an election have gotten greater rather than lesser since then despite the investigation. because this, they continue to stoke this. they continue to throw the kerosene out there. and we're finding out there's no limits to the demagoguery and to the deception of people like steve bannon and donald trump himself. the worst elements of this are being encouraged by the man who leads the republican party and once again, i know this is an old story, but the refusal of the republican leadership, the grown ups in the room to stand up against him and say you know, this is irresponsible. this is untrue. we can't do this. will pay tremendous, you know, we'll pay a tremendous cost for the country. i don't know for the party. they don't necessarily think this is a political liability for them now, but the impact, the impact and implication for the country is incredibly grave and you wonder at some point the cycle. of doubt, of lies, of violence. where does it end? because right now, it all seems to be escalating. >> truer, more ominous words have not been spoken in a while. charlie sticks around. thank you for starting us off today. after the break, thousands of russian troops unleashed on ukraine in a barrage. one reporter on the ground describes a staggering new scope. plus, the mandate for wearing masks, public transportation has been overturned, leaving some of the country's most vulnerable people very concerned today. and how one fox news host bizarre takes on masculinity may actually shed light on an insidious anti science movement that is rampant on the right. all those stories and more when we continue after a quick break. stay with us. when we continue after a quick break. stay with us [sound of helicopter blades] ugh... they found me. ♪ ♪ nice suits, you guys blend right in. the world needs you back. i'm retired greg, you know this. people have their money just sitting around doing nothing... that's bad, they shouldn't do that. they're getting crushed by inflation. well, i feel for them. they're taking financial advice from memes. 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(motor starting) the most fun we have on the gator is just ripping around the property. it's a springtime tradition. yeah, who needs tv when you have... ...decoys and the dogs. there are millions of ways to make the most of your land. learn more at deere.com. xfinity mobile runs on america's most reliable 5g network, but for up to half the price of verizon, there are millions of ways to make the most of your land. so you have more money for more stuff. this phone? fewer groceries. this phone? more groceries! this phone? fewer concert tickets. this phone? more concert tickets. and not just for my shows. switch to xfinity mobile for half the price of verizon. that's a savings of over $500 a year. switch today. the bad guys is the winner of the truly moving picture award. oh, stop! you making me blush. it's an action packed animated adventure. show the world that you're more than just a scary stereotype. everyone will love. is this wagging? - good right? the monday russian barrage has remarkable. this is kharkiv, 250 miles north of mariupol. 700 miles east of the attacks in lviv. ukraine's second city still being bombarded. still resists occupation. but here's the cost. the victim is her father. >> horrible. that reporting from sky news is mark stone in kharkiv. that's part of the brave ukrainian military and civilian resistance, of course. 24 hours now into russia's long feared and long expected now all out assault, brutal assault, on nearly the entire eastern swath of the country of ukraine. kharkiv sits just outside of the donbas region where russia has increased strikes. unleashed thousands of troops and today, according to news reports, has seized control of kremmina and nbc news has learned from multiple u.s. officials that the biden administration is preparing to announce another substantial military aid package for ukraine this week, similar in size they say to the $800 million package announced last week and expected to include more artillery and tens of thousands more artillery rounds likely to be critical for this war over the donbas. joining us now, former u.s. ambassador to russia, michael mcfaul. how are you feeling today about not just what ukraine is suffering at the hands of russia, but how they are sort of situated as this battle commences in earnest in terms of what they have asked for and what we have given them so far in military assistance? >> first, the preamble is remember putin has lost the war for ukraine. i think before we got donbas and think about the next battle, we need to remember that his original intention, which was to swallow up all of ukraine, because ukrainians are just russians with accents. he failed at that. he failed to chase away zelenskyy. he failed to take kyiv. battle of kyiv will be a historic moment in ukrainian nationhood and ukrainian history books and even as you just showed, he has not taken any major city yet. little ones like you just mentioned and maybe mariupol soon, but so far, he's failed at his major objectives in this war, but that doesn't mean he won't fail in the battle for donbas. from what i understand from talking to both u.s. and ukrainian officials, everybody's gearing up for it. they're ready. they think it will be a big fight. ukrainians want more weapons. the u.s. is trying to provide them with more weapons and they have a very different concept of time, but this will be a big battle and as we've been reporting, you've been reporting, it will be a much more conventional style battle than this slaughtering of innocence we've seen so far. >> there's no indication that those features will diminish as the brutality has been rewarded in russia, the soldiers who carried out the atrocities in bucha have been recognized by putin himself. i'm sure that doesn't tell you anything new, but what should the rest of us take from that? >> honestly, nicolle, it does tell me something new. i wrote my first piece about putin becoming an autocrat 22 years ago. i did not expect him to be as evil in the way he is fighting this war and that he has been. let's also remember, they could have cleaned up bucha. they could have hid that. they didn't do that. they left those bodies on purpose as a way to terrorize the ukrainian people. so you're absolutely right. we keep talking about the conventional war that is already begun or is about to begin. i think we're already in the early stages of it around donbas, connecting crimea to donbas. that's putin's objective. but simultaneously, he will continue to terrorize ukrainian people as he did in lviv. as he did in kharkiv as you just showed. he will continue that part of the war as well and that's by design. those are not mistakes. he is designing, he is doing on purpose this terrorist actions against ukrainian innocence civilians. >> my colleague, rachel maddow, who's back on mondays now and accused last night and interviewed ann applebalm. of course, rachel being rachel pulled out the essence of what president zelenskyy said that haunted her and should haunt all of us. i wanted to ask you about it. it was his comments about not being too overly optimistic. you know, we see this in the west and we're cheering for the good guys because it's so obvious who's good and evil. but that the russians have militarily at their disposal the capacity to still do immense harm to ukraine. can you just sort of push this moment through that lens? >> yeah, zelenskyy's a realist. he's a fantastic communicator, heroic leader and a great communicator to the outside world as well. i think it's been very brilliant what he's been doing, but he also knows that the russians outnumber him. they have greater weapons. we continue to send to them mostly, although we're changing a little bit now incrementally, but we're mostly sending them old soviet weapons. we're not sending them the best stuff. and remember, we don't really know the full extent of ukrainian casualties in the battle of kyiv and other places, right? ukrainian government tends not to publish that and my sense is that zelenskyy understands that this is going to be a major, difficult battle to repel these russian forces that are amassing, already are amassing inside his country. >> we're so eager to talk to you about what's happened in this moment between your appearances, but my last question is about what this is like for you. these players. i know you share with us sometimes when president zelenskyy zoom bombs some of your interactions with ukrainians. but this has to be emotional to see someone that you've warned a lot of the west about. you've counseled presidents on how to deal with putin and putin carrying out his evil. his terrorism of a democracy and american ally. what are your thoughts? >> the first thought is always just horror and tragedy and i wish i could do more. i follow the war very closely. i see the things you're showing. it's a constant part of my life and it's horrible. it's the most horrific thing that's happened in my lifetime to people that i know. and their relatives, right? the second thing, i am amazed at the heroism of my friends, the ukrainians that are in this fight that work for zelenskyy, that work for parts of the government. some of them now have weapons. the former prime minister, he spent last fall out here in stanford with me. we had him on a zoom call last week. he's the former prime minister. he's an economist, right? we remember that. and there he is with his gun in his camouflage. he's now working in special operations. i admire those people deeply. i worry also about russians who have fled. friends of mine who are stuck in countries all over the world that decided they couldn't live in putin's russia anymore. what happens to them and their children in the future. and finally, i'm inspired by renewal. obviously it was easter, at least in my faith, on sunday. this is a time of renewal. one of the mts, a fellow at stanford, she spent a year at my institute. she went back to ukraine and became a member of parliament. she's been on many of our programs lately. she was stuck here because she was pregnant. she couldn't fly back and she just had her baby and she said one more brave ukrainian little girl into this world and so all of those things conflicting are the way i live my life 24 hours a day, nicolle. thanks for asking. >> you made me cry. i just keep thinking of the way we try to shield our kids from anything horrible and when your kids are having to run into a bomb shelter, there's no more shield. there's nothing you can do except try to keep them alive and so thank you for sharing that. >> you just captured one thing. i want to end on this. you just captured exactly how zelenskyy feels. so they're not his personal children. but they're his citizens. and that's why he feels so frustrated sometimes with the west. he wants to be appreciative what is you know, his mind is working, but when his heart, when he sees those things, he says we need to do more and i just think we need to do more. that's the suffering he's under. we should help him in this, you know, this tragic moment when he can't protect the children of mariupol. >> and we should do more. we'll figure it out. ambassador, thank you so much for your time today. >> thank you. after the break, new warnings following the reversal of that mask mandate for public transit. that's next. transit. that's next. riders! let your queries be known. yeah, hi. instead of letting passengers wrap their arms around us, could we put little handles on our jackets? -denied. -can you imagine? i want a new nickname. can you guys start calling me snake? no, bryan. -denied. -how about we all get quotes to see if we can save with america's number one motorcycle insurer? approved. cool! hey, if bryan's not gonna be snake, can i be snake? -all: no. when you join ihop's new rewards program, the international bank of pancakes, and start stacking pancoins toward free food, you get a smile on your plate. download the app and join the rewards program today. you're a one-man stitchwork master. but your staffing plan needs to go up a size. you need to hire. i need indeed. indeed you do. indeed instant match instantly delivers quality candidates matching your job description. visit indeed.com/hire (johnny cash) ♪ i've traveled every road in this here land! ♪ mat♪ i've been everywhere,ion. man. ♪ ♪ i've been everywhere, man. ♪ ♪ crossed the desert's bare, man. ♪ ♪ i've breathed the mountain air, man. ♪ ♪ of travel i've had my share, man. ♪ ♪ i've been everywhere. ♪ ♪ i've been to: pittsburgh, parkersburg, ♪ ♪ gravelbourg, colorado, ♪ ♪ ellensburg, cedar city, dodge city, what a pity. ♪ ♪ i've been everywhere, man. ♪ ♪ i've been everywhere, man. ♪ ♪ i've been everywhere. ♪ the biden administration announced that the transportation security administration will no longer enforce the federal mandate requiring masks in all u.s. airports and non foreign aircraft. >> finally! >> effective immediately, masks are optional -- u.s. airports. >> so that was the spontaneous reaction in flight to major news yesterday. a federal judge in florida struck down the cdc's mask mandate for public transportation. the tsa and at least eight major u.s. airlines enacted the policy over their loud speaker that wearing the mask would now be optional. maskless selfies from the sky went viral instantly. others learned the news as they waited to board their flights, where they undoubtedly expected to wear a mask. then images like this. maskless images from atlanta. the cdc still recommends masks while traveling. here was president biden this afternoon after his administration called that ruling disappointing. >> mr. president, should people continue to wear masks on planes? >> that's up to them. >> the ruling the judge made striking down the mandate? >> i haven't spoken to the cdc yet. thank you. >> let's bring in dr. patel, former policy director for the obama white house, now fellow at the brookings institution. dr. patel, what is, well, take our viewers through how you see yesterday's news and tell us what people should do. >> yes. so i'll get a little policy at first then practical, but from a policy standpoint, my reaction was dumbfounded. particularly because the claim that the cdc didn't have a basis, the government and the secretary of hhs, public health services act, which gives the authority to the federal government to be able to put into measures to protect our country, that that was overstepped and not legitimate enough to uphold a mask mandate based on claims around masks being related to panic attacks and anxiety. i do not want to minimize that, but i want to state what has happened has been an undermining of a very legitimate public health organization and its recommendations. that alone should cause everybody to pause because this is something we've seen with reproductive rights, cracks that are opening across the country. doing this mid flight was so unfair and inequitable to people. but even people who had plans to go somewhere like i do next week are sitting here wondering how do we assess risk? how do i trust the person next to me has the personal responsibility to not come on the plane sick? this is what's going to unfold and i think you're going to see, as if america wasn't divided enough, it's further divided. but to be incredibly pragmatic, if you are seeing loved ones, you have people in your household that can't get vaccinated under 5, immunocompromised, wear a high quality mask. it doesn't prevent anything, but it will protect you. airplanes when they're moving have pretty darn good ventilation because of what they do for filtration and air circulation. buses. transit. places like that can get really crowded really quick. either avoid those situations and do what i do. wear a high quality masks. i'm always traveling with extra in my bag and if you're seeing something that's immunocompromised and you're about to make a trip, make sure you're on time with your boosters. get them before you make these big trips. i want people to have a normal life, but you have to remember that there are ten million plus people who are paralyzed by this. i had a liver transplant patient today as me if she can wear a special pin to justify why she's wearing her n 95 and not be looked at like she's crazy. this is where we are. we can protect ourselves, but it's hard. >> you know, i listen to that biden sound a few different times to try to hear what he's saying in that. i think it's a lot of what you're saying. that for the people who can't protect themselves, this was a layer for the most vulnerable, but you're speaking to the real problem, which is that people are afraid to ask their neighbors to protect them. hey, i'm a liver transplant recipient. do you mind wearing a mask on this flight? what about the fact that, you know, it's impossible to know who was cheering, but it seemed pretty universal. people do have fatigue and that is not fair and is certainly not fair to the 10 million people, but it seems to be the reality of our country at this moment. >> it is. and if it makes any of us feel better, this is historically what happens. pandemic in the early 20th century, the flu, it was about two to three years then there was like a switch. people were like, we're done. we're done. it does feel where our country is at, but just to levels set right now is not the time to just kind of pull back anything. we are enjoying better numbers. hospitalizations and deaths coming down, good trends, but we don't want to just turn everything upside down and have a surge later that causes us to see more people hospitalized. i wish that we had done this in layers. if we had let the mask requirement go on april 18th, but said we recommend that people inside of boarding areas have masks. people just need guidance. to say do your own thing with no ability to assess my individual risk, i mean, i have a better sense of whether i could go out in a thunderstorm and get struck by lightning than i do if i know the person next to me can give me covid. that's not what we should be doing as a country. we should be giving people education, making it accessible. if people are positive, seek out treatment. i have more paxlovid and oral antivirals on shelves than i do people asking for them. people don't realize they're there and doctors don't realize they can prescribe them because we have been told for so long, reserve them for the sickest people. advocate for yourself if you test positive. ask the questions, ask them early if you test positive. >> so nice to see you and get that practical advice. thank you so much. we're going to switch gears and talk about not so great science. after the break, the latest tucker carlson fear mongering strategy has to do with manhood in america. you heard that right. don't go anywhere. merica you heard that right n't go anywhere. the world is full of make or break moments. especially if you have postmenopausal osteoporosis and a high risk for fracture, it's time to make your move to help reduce your risk of fracture with prolia®. only prolia® is proven to help strengthen and protect bones from fracture with 1 shot every 6 months. do not take prolia® if you have low blood calcium, are pregnant, are allergic to it, or take xgeva®. serious allergic reactions like low blood pressure, trouble breathing, throat tightness, face, lip or tongue swelling, rash, itching or hives have happened. tell your doctor about dental problems, as severe jaw bone problems may happen or new or unusual pain in your hip, groin, or thigh, as unusual thigh bone fractures have occurred. speak to your doctor before stopping, skipping as spine and other bone fractures have occurred. prolia® can cause serious side effects, like low blood calcium, serious infections, which could need hospitalization, skin problems, and severe bone, joint, or muscle pain. don't wait for a break. call your doctor now and ask how prolia® can help you. >> tech: when you have auto glass damage, trust safelite. in one easy appointment... ♪ pop rock music ♪ >> tech: ...we can replace your windshield and recalibrate your advanced safety system. >> dad: looks great. thanks. >> tech: stay safe with safelite. schedule now. >> singers: ♪ safelite repair, safelite replace. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ we believe there's an innovator in all of us. ♪ ♪ that's why we build technology that makes it possible for every business... and every person... to come to the table and do more incredible things. bipolar depression. it made me feel trapped in a fog. this is art inspired by real stories of bipolar depression. i just couldn't find my way out of it. the lows of bipolar depression can take you to a dark place. latuda could make a real difference in your symptoms. latuda was proven to significantly reduce bipolar depression symptoms and in clinical studies, had no substantial impact on weight. this is where i want to be. call your doctor about sudden behavior changes or suicidal thoughts. antidepressants can increase these in children and young adults. elderly dementia patients have increased risk of death or stroke. report fever, confusion, stiff or uncontrollable muscle movements, which may be life threatening or permanent. these aren't all the serious side effects. now i'm back where i belong. ask your doctor if latuda is right for you. pay as little as zero dollars for your first prescription. ♪ ♪ bonnie boon i'm calling you out. everybody be cool, alright? we've got bonnie right here on a video call. we don't take kindly to video calls. oh, in that case just tap to send a message. we don't take kindly to messages neither. in that case how 'bout a ringcentral phone call. we don't take kindly to no... would you can it eugene! let's just hear her out. ha ha ha, i've been needing a new horse. we've got ourselves a deal. ♪ ♪ ♪ ringcentral ♪ this is not the stallion i was imagining. a plot twist for us. we're talking manhood and let us be clear right from the start, this is not a story about tucker carlson. as much as he might want it to be. it's not really even about what he said either, although we will admit a story about boosting testosterone levels in man by tanning down there is almost too bizarre to completely ignore, but we will for the most part. what the story is really about is the dangerous intersection between toxic masculinity and a willingness and eagerness even to accept junk science and push it on others. remember, these are the folks who introduced and pushed hydroxychloroquine, ivermectin, suggesting falsely both those drugs were miracle cures for covid. in a similar fashion, tucker carlson's so-called fitness expert on the tanning subject says full-body red light therapy, quote, isn't being picked up or covered, which might actually be true, but not for the reason they think. as he has in the past, tucker carlson is taking advantage of a widespread distrust of expertise and using it in this bizarre instance to stir up self-pity, longing, maybe? for when they say, men were men. we're back with the only person who i could possibly hope to talk about this topic, charlie sykes. over to you. what's going on? on a serious note, this is a big -- a lot of airtime and a lot of very prominent people on the right spend a lot of time talking about this stuff. why? >> yeah, well, it's -- there's a virility panic out there, so tucker carlson has moved from stoking a white backlash to stoking a male backlash and this has been a theme that somehow we have become an excessively feminized society, that men are being wimpfied and throughout history, there have been moments where this has become a big political issue. you know, that we need to prove our manhood by doing what? it's kind of odd, of course, coming from tucker carlson, the bow-tied trust fund baby who's now become the avatar of masculinity, but again, on the right, this emphasis on super manliness has become -- has become ubiquitous, but again, when they talk about manliness, what's important is they don't talk about sportsmanship or character or raising children to be responsible. they don't talk about men as being the kind of people who will admit when they've made a mistake. it's more of the super-muscular, oiled-up, you know, testosterone-fueled bully image. now, why tucker carlson, you know, wants to be associated with irradiating testicles, i don't know. maybe he would prefer that we're talking about that version of junk science rather than his praise of vladimir putin. but this is -- this has been a real theme for the right, and it's, again, rather odd for a movement that looks to donald trump of all people as the manliest man in american politics or tucker carlson as the manliest man on the right. but they're tapping into real anxiety there. and they're trying to encourage it. you know, there was a time when men were men and they were powerful and they were more respected and other people are taking it from you, and this does relate to the kinds of things that tucker carlson has been trying to create these wedges and convince people that somehow they are losing their position in society, that it's being taken away from them and they are all victims. >> well, and you don't get to white replacement theory, is that what tucker calls it? and a warm embrace of vladimir putin without coming at it from fear. i mean, i think the reason that editorially it was an important thing to put together is the three most prominent excuse makers for vladimir putin's war on civilians and war in ukraine are putin himself, donald trump, who's refused on two occasions on fox news to condemn vladimir putin as a war criminal, and tucker carlson, who even wants the war commenced refused to say that real leaders, strong leaders don't decimate civilian populations. they don't target women and children fleeing one part of the country. they, you know, stand up and sort of fight for what they believe in. this is a piece of the kinds of people that his -- i mean, he has massive audiences on the cable channel, at least. this is part of the conditioning, and this seems to be the most base and primal recruitment tool to tucker carlson's world view. >> but think about this. you know, think about any of you that are parents out there. if you're raising a young man to be -- a young boy to be a man, what are the values you want to instill? and is that what they are instilling? is that their definition of manliness? you know, are they talking about being a good loser, about sortsmanship, all of those things, treating people with respect. that's not the kind of manliness that you are seeing pushed. it is the, you know, bare-chested vladimir putin on the horse. it is donald trump bragging about who he can grab or tucker carlson talking about how you need to put a laser beam on your testicles in order to raise your testosterone level. this is not what it means to be a man, but this is the image that they are selling, and so it is the intersection of this politics of victimization with junk science, and unfortunately, tucker carlson has made the judgment that this is good business, this is good politics, and this is something that he wants to be associated with. which, again, reminds us that just when you think things can't get worse in 2022, they do. >> yes. i guess, you know, happy and safe tanning? i mean, it's like -- it's like cringy even for its adherents. good lord. charlie sykes, really, really smart and brave insights. thank you for spending some time with us today. the next hour of "deadline white house" starts after a quick break. don't go anywhere. starts after quick break. don't go anywhere. i'm mark and i live in vero beach, florida. my wife and i have three children. ruthann and i like to hike. we eat healthy. we exercise. i noticed i wasn't as sharp as i used to be. my wife introduced me to prevagen and so i said "yeah, i'll try it out." i noticed that i felt sharper, i felt like i was able to respond to things quicker. and i thought, yeah, it works for me. prevagen. healthier brain. better life. looking to get back in your type 2 diabetes zone? 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ask your health care provider today about once-weekly ozempic®. ♪ oh, oh, oh, ozempic®! ♪ you may pay as little as $25 for a 3-month prescription. ♪ ♪ when you order the all new deluxe three cheese and bacon omelette, you get a smile on your plate. only from ihop. join the rewards program and earn double pancoins with any omelette purchase. >> translator: you can't even imagine how you can hold a kalashnikov every day for 55 days, one after another, fall asleep and wake up with a gun in their hands, without food or water. how do they feel? they feel that they are defending their land, that they are defending their wives, their children, their home. and they're doing everything to stop the enemy today. >> hi again, everyone, it's 5:00 in new york. it's the city of mariupol holds on in the face of russia's brutal and persistent attacks there, for weeks, civilians have suffered in horrendous conditions, unthinkable at this point, forced to live without food, without water, without power. that was the city's mayor speaking about the strength of the ukrainian forces still there, still defending their homeland. today, those forces refused a second ultimatum posed by russia's defense ministry to be kept alive if and only if they surrender. mark stone from sky news has reporting from a massive steel factory in mariupol, which has become the last ukrainian stronghold in the city. watch. >> reporter: released late last night, this video, it is claimed, shows the last remaining civilians in mariupol. they're in a makeshift bomb shelter at the steelworks in this key port city. the video was filmed and released by the ukraine military's azov battalion. it is their soldiers who have been holding out for weeks against the russian forces here, and they are now cornered in the steelworks. we can't yet independently verify when it was filmed or precisely where, but azov commanders are using it as an appeal. i am the commander of the azov regiment, he says, and i call on the leaders right now, mariupol at the steel factory, hundreds of civilians are sheltering. they found their only available shelter was next to ukrainian soldiers who were still defending the city from russian invaders. i urge the politicians of the civilized world to organize a proper green corridor to ensure safety and provide immediate evacuation for everyone. >> mariupol on the brink of possibly going one way or the other, right? possible collapse as russians today confirmed the announcement yesterday by ukrainian president zelenskyy that the next phase of russia's war, the battle of donbas, has officially begun. it's a phase focused on the eastern part of the country. one ukrainian official says it will be more methodical, more targeted. a concerning thought considering the atrocities we've already witnessed in the war. today, we learned those horrors are being well received, rewarded back in mother russia. putin awarded honors to the same russian army brigade that ukraine has accused of committing -- war crimes. at war with one another. one calls what happened in bucha a genocide, which it clearly was. the other rewards the soldiers who carried it out. it's where we start the hour. joining us now, npr white house correspondent live from central ukraine. we have some of the pictures you've taken from your twitter feed, and i want to start by putting up this one. this is, thank you, u.s. taxpayer, what can i say? it looks like a ukrainian after a russian tank is blown up. explain what the sort of sense is about the -- what the u.s. taxpayer has contributed so far and what else is needed. >> yeah, i was out on the outskirts of kyiv covering some war crimes, and in the town i was at, there were just a lot of tanks like that, just riddled across the roads, and it was just some of the remnants of the chaos and destruction that was really wreaked on the area and i was there with some ukrainians who were, you know, looking at that russian tank and just made kind of that comment about thanking the united states, presumably thinking that that tank was destroyed by a -- perhaps a javelin missile that was funded or donated or given by the united states. i mean, i think it really shows how much of a need the ukrainians have and how much of a desire they have for the west to do more. we just heard that officer pleading with the west to provide a green corridor. one of president volodymyr zelenskyy's was making kind of the same type of plea for the west to do more. calling specifically on western leaders and religious leaders to do more. going so far to say that if they did not do more, that blood would be on their hands as well. so, i mean, the rhetoric is really going up, and that is because there are real lives at stake. mariupol's city council says there were a thousand people, families, children, sheltering in that steel plant that you were showing. underneath there, that is really under siege, and like you said, it is really a city that is on the brink of collapse to the russians. >> i wonder if you can sort of take us through the country because i've spoken to my colleague, ali arouzi, about how the strikes over the weekend in lviv shattered that city's feeling, even if it wasn't a reality, but a feeling that it was relatively safer than, obviously, the brutality that we've been covering, really in horror, for weeks now in mariupol. can you sort of -- can we start in the west and then we'll move through to the east? >> yeah, sure. i mean, you're absolutely right. i mean, lviv is an area that really has kind of escaped the violence of the war that is really permeated the east. tens of thousands of families from the east were fleeing to lviv. my colleague spoke to one family, a mother and a young daughter, who actually fled yesterday from donbas, pardon me, from the dnipro region. they were on the plane -- pardon me, on the train going to lviv. the bombing landed by the train station, and she was telling my colleague that if her train was not late, if they had arrived on time, which i think was maybe an hour earlier, they could have been killed. i mean, this was the type of violence that they were trying to flee, and they're arriving at the place, the so-called safe place, and you're seeing this black plume across the city. i do think the mayor of lviv put it very well that it shows that there really is no safe area in ukraine right now. the danger is across the country. >> and obviously, the men have to, by law, stay and fight, so the only people fleeing are largely women and children and older people, right? >> yes. i mean, there is a lot of rules that only women and children can get out. that family i was just referring to, their husband and father had to stay in dnipro in order for them to get out. i mean, it's a really -- it's a really difficult situation. i mean, because men, it's martial law and because men can't get out, even members of the parliament in ukraine are doing a lot of the lobbying of foreign governments, like going to visit french president macron, visiting british prime minister boris johnson, urging them to do more, asking for more weapons, asking for more sanctions. it's really kind of an all hands on deck effort here. and you know, it's just getting -- we're entering this new phase and it's getting more and more concerning. >> you have also posted some pictures near kyiv where the defeat that the russians suffered there, it feels like allowed some people to cautiously and still with some trepidation return to something of a new normal. is that right? >> yeah, it's very -- you know, being in kyiv is very interesting. i have been here about two weeks and i was -- you can see the increasing number of people coming in each day, more and more. i mean, i think there is really just such a desperation to get back to some form of normalcy. you go to -- you can go to a few restaurants now where they're pretty much bustling. you hear sirens. the war is never far away. there are a lot of checkpoints, sandbags across the city, these anti-tank barricades that you really don't want to get too close to. but at the same time, there are a lot of citizens of kyiv and other parts of the country as well that are desperate to get back to their lives, that they don't want to live in fear, and they don't want to give the russians the benefit of creating this image of fear, because some feel that that is what the russians are trying to do by sending these, you know, attacks to all these different places of sending missiles that maybe are shot down. it's intimidation that they're attempting to do. and i feel like a lot of residents tell me they're trying to fight back. >> we appreciate you staying up for us and sort of taking us through the horrors, really, all across that country. franco, please stay safe. thank you so much. >> thank you. joining our coverage, pete, also katty kay, bbc news u.s. special correspondent, also an msnbc contributor. pete strzok, ambassador mcfaul surprised me in the last hour when i said that maybe -- i made the assumption that vladimir putin's brutality would be familiar to him and the horror i felt when i read today that the soldiers who carried out the atrocities in bucha, where bound civilians were shot and murdered in front of their families, and left in the streets, that they were rewarded back in russia and offered special military awards for their conduct there. must not shock him, but it shocked the rest of us. he said, no, that shocked me too. in your view, has vladimir putin changed? >> i think so. i think there are a couple of things that may be driving that change. one is his increasing isolation in terms of the people advising him, in terms of his perception of his grip on power. i mean, the reality is that, you know, may 9th, which is victory day, where russia and before that the soviet union celebrates the victory over nazi germany is coming up very soon, and in the eyes of the russian public, very little has been going well. they had their, you know, their flagship "moskva" sunk, they had massive losses and casualties in the north, so when vladimir putin as an authoritarian leader, the first goal of most authoritarian leaders is to maintain power, and so he desperately needs a victory in the eyes of the russian people, and one of the ways he can do that is through what is perceived, certainly within russia, that he can present as a military victory. now, i think for all of us, we look at the methods that russia and russian military is using and see atrocities, just across the board, but that certainly isn't the way many russians' televisions and radios, that's not the way it's being presented so i think what you're seeing vladimir putin doing is increasing the aggression, focusing his forces on the east, trying to drive towards mariupol so that he has a land corridor to crimea that he can turn to the russian people on the 9 th of may and say, look, i have achieved success. i have maintained russian greatness. i have reclaimed this past russian territory. but it's going to come at an extraordinary cost, and with extraordinary destruction. >> katty, do european leaders view putin as changed? do they view him as more isolated, perhaps because of some of the pandemic practices and traditions he's put into place? do they view the defeats as having a correlation to the atrocities that have been carried out by russian soldiers in ukraine? >> yeah, everyone's seen the pictures of putin sitting at the end of his table without people. we've seen it over the last couple of years, him being very isolated during covid. there were reports that he didn't leave his dacha at all during covid. you had to take a kind of long, underground tunnel of security but also of covid protection just to get to him. so there is a sense that he has become more isolated. i did ask a european official who knows putin quite well, in fact, somebody who's had a sauna with putin, i'm not sure i would want to get in a sauna with vladimir putin, but he has done, and he's familiar with him, and i've asked him, over the ten years that you have been knowing putin, following putin, meeting with putin, do you think he's changed recently? and he said that he thought in the last couple of years, putin had got more bitter. that was the word he used. more bitter. and you certainly hear that in his speeches, rights? you hear this sense of victimhood that is even more pronounced now than it used to be, the sense that it's russia that's under attack from the rest, that he is the leader of a country that is being oppressed and harassed by nato. and this european diplomat felt that it was personal, that putin has become more bitter and i guess if that is the way you're feeling, if you really are feeling that you are the victim here, you perhaps don't stop at anything to reassert your control, and certainly -- we saw some of this in syria. i mean, i thought it was interested what mike mcfaul said because we have seen some of this in aleppo, just in aleppo, russia was slightly at a distance from what was happening on the ground. it was russian weapons and russian enabling chemical weapons attacks but here it's russian soldiers up close and personal, committing horrendous atrocities in-person against people, some of whom even speak their own language. >> right. to your point of bitterness and putin's bitterness and maybe tapping into some bitterness among his population, i wonder how this sort of amps that up, katty. this is from the a.p. president zelenskyy has formally submitted ukraine's answers to a questionnaire from the european union, the first step in his campaign to obtain accelerated eu membership. the european commission president said when presenting the questions to zelenskyy in early april that a preliminary decision on ukraine's candidacy could come in weeks. what impact will that have on not just putin and his bitterness but on ukraine? >> well, look, i mean, it's a preliminary decision, right? and when ursula van der leyen made this presentation, i think people misread that as saying actual admission to the european union would be weeks. it's just that preliminary decision on the questionnaire. this is still going to take a long time, too long to make very much difference to ukrainians. nato's now pretty much off the table, at least for the foreseeable future. eu membership would make a difference to ukraine, but we have a massive battle right now in the east. what ukrainians need right now is more offensive weaponry. european union membership will be lovely but there's no illusion that in ukraine, that this is going to come within a time frame that is particularly going to help them in this battle. >> on that note, pete, the nbc is reporting that the biden administration is preparing to announce another substantial military aid package for ukraine this week. five officials telling nbc news the official said the package is expected to be similar in size to the 800 million package the administration announced last week. most notable, i think most analysts would say, are the kind of weapons that are being sent. that they're getting heavier artillery, these offensive weapons that some reporters noted earlier in the conflict, there was some hesitation. it seems that some of those lines between offensive and defensive weapons systems have started to fade. is that your sense? >> yeah, absolutely. i mean, you see the united states providing weapons that are needed to combat what the russians are doing. i mean, just the fact that they've shifted the offensive to the east, certainly many of the longer range artillery systems the russians are using are based in russia. the supply lines that are providing them ammunition and food and oil and fuel are all within russia. so, if you're going to combat that, whether you're targeting it with counterbattery artillery fire, whether you're trying to cut off the supply lines, you've got to have weapons that reach not only the border but certainly into russia. so, that implies larger systems, systems that have a deeper reach, and systems that can take the fight by the ukrainians into russia. so, i think you're going to see the next two weeks a rush on both sides to get weapons but also to get all the logistical support that it takes to maintain those weapons. you know, after this massive russian artillery barrage they've been carrying on for days now, they're going to need to resupply that ammunition. they're going to need to continue to provide everything from fuel to the tanks and the armored personnel carriers, all of that is going to need to continue to flow, and that is the sort of target opportunities that these heavier weapons can -- the ukrainians can use to attack. so it's necessary. it's vital. and i think the next two weeks, not only because of this, you know, sort of pending may 9th celebration but actually the way the battle may flow, these next two weeks are absolutely going to be critical. >> you know, katty, something that you certainly heightened our awareness of here is this balance that the sanctions have to strike between not being so extreme that they catapult pro-putin political figures within a country, putting those sanctions in place. i wonder if you could just sort of update us on how that is playing and i ask that because all the reporting is that as the russian tactics are revealed as more brutal, and as the battle in the donbas is framed as this battle for the future of civilization, which is how president zelenskyy and other ukrainians have framed it, there seems to be an appetite for doing more on the sanctions front, and i wonder how those debates are going within the different european countries. >> yeah, i mean, you know, still the big sanctions would be sanctions on russian natural gas, particularly, and russian oil. the eu has already put sanctions on coal, but that was a relatively easy one, and it doesn't -- because of german objections, actually, even that doesn't come into effect until the summer. you've got some segments of the european union that are very firmly calling for those sanctions, particularly those european union countries that are up close to russia. all of those ones that are in central and eastern europe definitely want those sanctions, and they want them to go into effect immediately, but you've still got opposition from the german government and it's the german government that zelenskyy and zelenskyy's officials have been calling out very starkly. you had the ukrainian ambassador to berlin saying, there are too many putin supporters within the german government, close to the chancellor, and that's why they're not getting sanctions. we're all still watching france, and that's what we spoke about, nicole, last week, the french elections, because that's a place where the opposition candidate, marine le pen, has been campaigning very firmly on cost of living and particularly cost of energy. it's a subject that americans are very conscious of. it's a subject that europeans are very conscious of. if there are sanctions on oil and gas from russia, those prices are going to go even higher and marine le pen was getting some traction there. the second round of that election is next weekend. it looks like emmanuel macron has pulled ahead pretty firmly so maybe, you know, younger members of the population, more european countries will start to say, look, we are feeling public pressure to put on those sanctions, it's what the ukrainians are calling for, but there's still concern. you put a big sanction on oil and gas, and you crash the german economy, potentially, what happens then? how do leaders balance their own publics with the desire to punish vladimir putin? >> pete strzok, katty kay, thank you so much for all your wisdom and expertise. thank you so much for spending time with us today. when we come back, a former navy helicopter pilot and member of the house armed services committee on the big questions facing the biden administration. how far should america go to help ukraine defend itself against russia? plus, the paranoia on the far, far right over critical race theory is so high that the state of florida is now banning dozens of math books. math textbooks. we'll explain later. why a group of citizens in georgia is now one step closer to knocking congresswoman marjorie taylor greene off the ballot. 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we've had a lot of pentagon reporters report over the weeks that there's a diminishing distinction being made by the biden administration between offensive and defensive weapons systems. >> well, nicole, i'll be quite frank with you. i've always had a little bit of trouble desiefing between offensive and defensive weapons, but we certainly have been in talks with the ukrainians about what they need, and that list has changed over time, as they've worked through this fight, and now we're looking at a fight in the eastern area of ukraine, flatter, more amenable to tank war, so i think you've also seen -- and this was changing the calculation too -- the atrocities committed by the russians, i think, have really made the world and the united states and our nato allies more willing to consider other options for the ukrainians so they can keep up this fight. we don't want to see that kind of behavior, the horrible atrocities we've seen, people being brought out into the street and shot, maternity wards being bombed, women being sexually assaulted in front of their children. we don't want that behavior to go forth and to be unpunished in any way, and i think that has also provided us, the united states, with more comfort in supplying more weapons to the ukrainian people. >> the behavior you just described, rape as a weapon of war, indiscriminate targeting and killing of civilians, and perhaps things that we don't know about, things that may not be public at this point, seem to be the kind of evidence that president zelenskyy mustered in a call on friday when he reportedly asked the biden administration to consider designating russia as a state sponsor of terror. is that a debate that should be had, and where do you come down? >> so, as a veteran and somebody, you know, i went to the naval academy. we certainly studied war and the law of war, and i'm also a lawyer. so, i look at what is happening in ukraine as war crimes, and i think they should be prosecuted as such. and i know that international bodies are continuing to gather that evidence. certainly, the acts being conducted by the russian military, and there seems to be some evidence that this is coming from the top. rewards for the units that perform those atrocities in russia. that has to be punished. now, the way we want to move forward and punish that, there are different options. i think, again, as somebody who was a service member, i look at this as war crimes under the geneva conventions and would probably look to it being prosecuted in an international body. but there are other ways that we could handle this and i know the state department is having discussions on exactly what that might look like going forward. >> i want to switch gears, because you were one of the first people after the insurrection of january 6th to say to your constituents that what you saw in the other side of the aisle in your own chamber disturbed you, that republican members may have been in communication and in contact with people who would become insurrectionists the next day on january 6th. i wonder if you would like to see the january 6th committee subpoena any republican members who are of interest to them who don't voluntarily sit down and share what they know? >> well, nicole, i think what the january 6th committee has done to date has been very impressive. the documents that they have gathered, the people that they have been able to interview. as you know, congress does have subpoena power. it has been a slower process than i would like to see in enforcing that subpoena power, because that certainly is the critical aspect of it. so, i am hoping that we see the january 6th committee move forward, get as much information gathered, have hearings, and then, at some point, it seems to me like the doj will have to pick this up to continue this investigation. the doj has better subpoena power, better means, actually, of enforcing that espn power. subpoena power. >> i think a lot of people are looking for that chain reaction that the evidence mustered, either with or without any sort of referral, puts that kind of process in place. congresswoman mikie sherrill, a pleasure to talk to you. thank you so much for spending time with us today. >> well, thank you. when we come back, we'll try to explain why, why, why -- it's the million dollar question, right? why the state of florida is now banning dozens of math books over critical race theory. that story is next. don't go anywhere. that story is next don't go anywhere. grillin', chillin', spillin', dillin'. bec-ing. never brie-ing. smokin', yolkin', flippin', dippin'. if you're not oozing, then you're losing. tater totting, cold or hotting. mealin', feelin', pie-ing, trying. color your spread. upgrade your bread. pair it. share it. kraft singles. square it. if you've been living with heart disease, reducing cholesterol kcan be hard,. even when you're taking a statin and being active. but you can do hard. you lived through thirty-seven red-eye flights in a middle seat. eleven miracle diets... forty-two college campus tours... four overseas postings... one minor stroke... and four citywide blackouts... and now, with leqvio, you can lower your cholesterol, too. when taken with a statin, leqvio is proven to lower bad cholesterol by over 50% and keep it there with two doses a year. common side effects of leqvio were injection site reaction, joint pain, urinary tract infection, diarrhea, chest cold, pain in legs or arms, and shortness of breath. with leqvio, lowering cholesterol becomes just one more thing life throws your way. ask your doctor if leqvio is right for you. lower. longer. leqvio. your record label is taking off. but so is your sound engineer. you need to hire. i need indeed. indeed you do. indeed instant match instantly delivers quality candidates matching your job description. visit indeed.com/hire i'm dan o'dowd matching your job description. and i approved this message. you are watching actual videos of the tesla full self driving technology as recorded by the drivers. from turning too tightly and hitting a pylon... [ expletive ] to swerving toward a pole. jesus. watch the bicyclist on the right almost get hit before the driver takes over. sometimes it seems the tesla doesn't want the driver to take over. i'm trying. this driver had to hit the brakes when the tesla didn't understand a detour sign. ok. here it almost hit a truck. obviously, i had to take over. and here it swerves into an oncoming lane. look at that! often, the tesla doesn't know what it wants to do. what is it doing? or just doesn't know how to turn. jesus, oh my god! tesla's full self driving software for drivers and pedestrians, it's unsafe at any speed. tell congress to shut it down. the florida department of education announced that the state has rejected dozens of math textbooks because among other newly banned subject matter, they claim some of the books make reference to critical race theory. if you don't know what critical race theory is, neither does the governor of florida, ron desantis. >> this weekend, we learned that florida rejected 41% of new math textbooks. at least, they think it's 41%. for some reason, they suck at math. >> florida is banning math textbooks because the state says that they teach critical race theory. don't get me started on the violence inherent in math. i'll never forget the day seven ate nine. scarred me for life. >> late-night hosts having a field day, justifiably so, after the florida department of education announced on friday they had rejected nearly half of all math textbooks submitted by publishers for containing references to critical race theory or other prohibited topics. despite touting the department's, quote, transparent instructional materials review process, the department of education declined to specify how exactly the materials referenced critical race theory in a math textbook. let's bring in kimberly atkins stohr, co-host of the hashtag sisters in law podcast and jonathan lemire is here, white house bureau chief for politico, both msnbc contributors. i don't know if your kids are old enough for you to struggle through their math homework. my son is. and i do a lot of math homework, and there are a lot of numbers. math is sort of stacked and boxed and rearranged in all sort of ways that it wasn't when i was young, i'm that old, but it's still just math. i mean, what on earth is in these textbooks in florida? what is this even about? >> nicole, math never my strong suit. my fifth grader, thankfully, is pretty proficient at it. he's pretty proficient so he doesn't need much help. it's a very different math than when you and i were grappling with it in school. this is not about the math. let's be clear. the florida offered no examples. there is no illustrations as to the reasons why they banned the books outside of this vague notion that they taught critical race theory and they didn't support that claim whatsoever. what this is about is governor ron desantis. governor ron desantis, who has -- is seen as a white house hopeful in 2024 and one of the few republicans who some in the gop think might still run, even if trump jumps in, seizing upon another cultural wedge issue, critical race theory, you know, inappropriately defined, inappropriately applied, but became certainly a buzzword, a buzz phrase in the virginia governor's race last year, which republicans won in somewhat of an upset. republicans feel like it's an issue, a wedge issue, they can use this year in the midterms. and certainly there are parents in this country who want to have more say in their children's education, but critical race theory has become shorthand and often incorrect shorthand for republicans trying to turn it into a political attack, and desantis wants to grab that issue as he is seen staking out territory to the right of most in the party, including trump, on a number of issues, education here. he's also done the same with the pandemic. >> kim, it's a depressing and a cynical and most likely an accurate description of what happened to 50% of florida's math textbooks, but it's also this sort of perversion of the glenn youngkin strategy for how he sailed to victory in his governor's race in virginia, and i covering it like a -- solely as a political tactic because it has a whole lot of victims. victims in the students, victims in the debate, it moves the goal post from, you know, critical race theory wasn't being taught in elementary schools in virginia, but now several states over, several states down, you've got a governor trying to out sort of politic the politics of critical race theory. where does this end? >> well, this just happens to be sort of a perfect political storm for this, nicole. i mean, you have, under the guise of protecting education, protecting children, right, that's something that every parent would want, all it takes is a couple of anecdotes that can go viral on twitter, and then you have a governor who, you know, as lemire correctly states, never met a culture war he wasn't thrilled to wage. taking that and using that as a political cudgel. you know, for a long time, there has been this idea that republicans can win by convincing people that america is changing, it's not the same, they're teaching you things that you shouldn't want, that america isn't exceptional, that your children should be ashamed, and it really caught fire, and i think that virginia gubernatorial race really was a wake-up call for some republicans that this is a tool that they can use as their numbers keep shrinking, as they're trying to figure out what donald trump might do, they're doing everything they can to score political points and this seems to be an easy and effective way for them to do that. >> from the bottom, we'll go lower. kim and jonathan are sticking around. when we come back, marjorie taylor greene is a step closer to being barred for running for re-election over january 6th. we'll explain next. for re-election over january 6th we'll explain next exploring the heart of historic europe with viking, you'll get closer to iconic landmarks, to local life and legendary treasures as you sail onboard our patented, award-winning viking longships. you'll enjoy many extras, including wi-fi, cultural enrichment from ship to shore and engaging excursions. viking - voted number one river cruise line by condé nast readers. learn more at viking.com. ♪ ♪ can a company make the planet a better place? 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(all): all hail, caesar! pssst julius! you should really check in with your team on ringcentral. oh hi caesar. we were just talking about you. yeah, you should probably get out of here. ♪ ringcentral ♪ congresswoman marjorie taylor greene may be facing a tougher re-election bid than even she bargained for. yesterday, a federal judge cleared the way for a lawsuit seeking to remove greene from the ballot to proceed. the lawsuit was brought by georgia voters who say greene is ineligible to run for office due to her actions around the january 6th insurrection. greene had requested a preliminary injunction, which the judge denied, writing, quote, this case involves a whirlpool of colliding constitutional interests of public import. the novelty of the factual and historical posture of this case has made resolution of the complex legal issues at stake here particularly demanding. a hearing in this case is scheduled for this friday. we're back with kim and jonathan. jonathan, is it possible that she's disqualified, and is this lawsuit one that's specific to the laws in georgia, or is it something on the books in other states? >> it varies state to state, and we saw recently a case in north carolina that was decided the other way, that it did not apply to former president trump and his eligibility in the ballot down the road. but it is and it remains to be seen whether or not this will prove successful and whether the congresswoman would be removed, but it does -- it's worth examining all the same, because it is a watershed moment here, that this is someone who is potentially going to lose her ability to run for office based on what she did on january 6th, and let's remember, marjorie taylor greene, as we all know, is one of donald trump's most steadfast and loyal supporters. she was a firm believer that the 2020 election was stolen from then president trump. she deemed january 6th, quote, our 1776 moment, which many people point to as a call for violence, and she has been nearly on a daily basis engaging in some sort of controversial action or statement in her time in congress, but yet, at the same time, is certainly a favorite in the maga set, has raised a lot of money and certainly stands likely to win re-election were she able to run again. but i think this goes to show just that we're still in an uncharted territory here in terms of lawmakers, public officials, and their roles in january 6th. it's reflective of the frustration democrats have about the department of justice moving slowly to bring charges against some of those at the january 6th select committee has found in contempt of congress, and it's a reminder as one democrat put it wistfully to me recently, that if donald trump had been impeach fd and then removed from office the second time in the wake of january 6th, he wouldn't be able to run for office again. we know that didn't happen and he stands as a threat, democrats say, in 2024. >> you know, kim, i welcome any legal insights in this case, but i also want to give you a two-part question here. to me, all the stories about marjorie taylor greene are not stories about marjorie taylor greene, they're stories about the impotence of the republican party to stand for anything other than the corrupt and malign accumulation of power for power's sake. in the old days, and not so long ago, the republican party -- either party would purge anyone like this. i mean, she's represented threats to her colleagues. she's a colleagues. she's menace on the floor of the chamber in which she serves. she's a stain on any normal functioning. but that's not what the republicans are these days. >> no, and there's no better evidence of that other than the leader mccarthy saying if the republicans take back control of the house, she would be returned to the committees she was stripped from by the democratic leadership. this case is very interesting. this ruling is interesting because what she's trying to do is to say there's nothing to see here. they can't win this suit. and a judge said we don't know that. this is something that's never happened before. this is a case that was made as a part of the constitution that was meant to prevent confederate officials from taking office, from taking office after their attack on the united states in the civil war. what essentially says if you participate in an insurrection or rebellion, you can no longer hold office. away this judge is saying is that is an open question. we don't know if they can win. let this play out. and then we'll have some answers. i think jonathan is right. it would be helpful if there were answers from the justice department or even a final report from this committee giving some facts as to what exactly the insurrection entailed and what pop's role including the congresswoman's role was in it to help guide the courts. but right now, they are still figuring this out. this is a constitutional issue that could have remifications in all states depending on how this shakes out. >> so interesting. we'll keep watching. thank you both so much for spending some time with us today. another quick break for us. we'll be right back. break for us we'll be right back. you feel like a big deal. ♪♪ priceline. every trip is a big deal. 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"the beat" starts right now with ari melber. >> thank you so much. welcome to "the beat." and this is one of those days we're tracking lots of stories right here in america. including the problems that extreme candidates are posing for mitch mcconnell. james carrvill joins me live on that midterm challenge. plus i'll get his take on the easter meltdown at fox news. later we have an update on how and marjorie taylor greene is going under oath. a lot of heat on hr. she faces all kinds of problems with being on the ballot in the first place. there's also new clues about whether president biden will run for reelection. so we dpet to all that pont. but our top story right

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