president. could criminal charges be next? we will get into the debate of that as well as the lucrative deal with the saudis. what is ahead for trump's once favorite form of communication, after elon musk refuses a seat on twitters board. all of that as the 11th hour gets underway on this monday night. good evening once again, i'm stephanie ruhle. tonight, the pentagon is warning there may soon be a major escalation in russia's war in ukraine. moscow still bombarding cities and towns as we enter day 48 of the conflict. there are new sides. russia preparing for a significant assault in eastern ukraine donbas region, after failing to capture its capital of kyiv. the latest satellite images show an eight-mile long russian military convoy that is now on the move. >> we believe these are the early stages of a reinforcement effort. they are trying to organize themselves better for a now more geographically can find and more specific set of target objectives, now in the donbas specifically and the south. >> and ukraine's president says russia, now amassing tens of thousands of troops for its next offensive. putin is also reportedly tapping a new ground commander to lead his forces in ukraine, a general who oversaw troops in syria and who has a history of using ruthless cruel tactics well targeting civilians. some have referred to him as the butcher of syria. >> there's no question about this individual's brutality, this has already been a brutal campaign in ukraine, and we could expect to see more of it. >> russia's continued assault on mariupol is a big part of it strategy to try to change the direction of the war. nbc's gutierrez is on the ground in ukraine for us tonight. >> this body camera video shows a firefight in the besieged southeastern seat of mariupol, or ukraine's president zelenskyy now says it is likely tens of thousands of people are dead. though, that number cannot be verified. after its defeat around kyiv, russia is now shifting its assault east. the country's largest city in the east, kharkiv, has seen more deadly airstrikes. in the suburbs of kyiv, after russian forces retreated, a clearer picture of the destruction is emerging. the death toll is rising, now topping 400. here in bucha, a painstaking recovery is underway. forensic investigators are still exhuming the bodies from this mass grave, and war crimes prosecutors are on the scene. today, sacha came to pay respects to his good friend who was buried here. he tells us his father in law died of hunger. >> i want the world to know that this is genocide, he says. >> our thanks to gabe gutierrez. at the un today, the focus was on the ukrainian women and children who have been driven from their homes, and the dangerous they are now facing as refugees. it is estimated more than 4 million people have fled the country altogether, about 7 million are displaced inside the countries. officials say reports of rape and sexual violence are on the rise. >> 90% of refugees from ukraine are women and children. one man, like president putin, start wars, women and children get displaced. women and children get hurt, women and children get raped, and abused, and women and children die. >> a war against women and children. with that, let's bring in this evening's experts, jason beardsley, a decorated u.s. military veteran with over 20 years of experience in the army and navy. he is now the national executive director for the association of the navy. julia davis, columnist for the daily beast, the founder of the russian media monitor. she watches russian state tv every day, so we don't have to. jason, austria's chancellor had a very rare meeting with putin today, for what he said were very tough talks. i want to share how he described russia's next moves heading to eastern ukraine, saying this, quote, the battle being threatened cannot be underestimated in it's violence. that is tough to hear. i mean, things have already been horribly violent. so, what do you think comes next? >> well, we are going to see a lot more of what we've seen. really atrocious activities by the russian military. we should be clear with the audience that these are not normal habits for a military professional, professional military does not do what we've seen in bucha and other places. reporting on the ground, that is the kind of thing that signals vladimir putin lost control of this invasion early on. he's got a lot of pressure from the inside, and now he is trying to save face. they are going to resort to repositioning in the donbas area. look for this to get about as ugly as it's been and more. here is the challenge, and we should be clear about this as well, the military russia has field it does not have good command and control, their notes are not together, they don't have good logistics. there are opportunities here for ukrainians to turn the tide once again. it's going to require amplified logistics from the united states and the west. i've got to tell you, stephanie, a little disappointed it has been this slow going so far. >> i want to talk about that. president zelenskyy and others, jason, said they need more military aid and they need it faster. we heard from the pentagon today saying they're trying to get long-range defense air systems there. is that the right move? what would change things, what would satisfy you? i hear your disappointment. >> it's a great move, but it's very late in this campaign. meanwhile, we maneuver capability of the ukrainians on the ground really beg and plead for the javelin type anti missiles. in the same breath, they need communications and cryptic communications. that allows maneuver elements that are smaller than the armor elements to move around them, harass a victim in the rear, and also those switchblade drones that will lure over a target and blowup. the ukrainians need an advantage here. the united states has got supplies and logistics down, we have done this over and over again. for my money, i am not sure why it is taking so long. >> julia, there is reporting putin may be may 9th as a critical point in this conflict. what is the significance of that date for russia? >> stephanie, the significance of that is great. it is the victory day. they were anticipating there would be a victory by that time. they were expecting to march in kyiv, a lot of their troops have arrived with their dress uniforms, expecting just that. a lot is determinative of the outcome of the next defensive in donbas, like jason said. this is crucially important that the ukrainians have everything that they need. i am hearing from the state media and their military experts that a lot will be dependent upon how this goes, and whether or not putin will continue marching further into the rest of ukraine from here. >> julia, you've got new reporting that is definitely going to get our audience out of bed. putin and his allies are hoping to fight back by disrupting the upcoming u.s. elections, and possibly putting trump back in office. tell us about that. >> well, they are pursuing to follow objectives with making this kind of information come out in public, and having their experts discuss that in the open. one, they know that trump never met anytime and he wasn't willing to side with as long as they sided with him first. they want to remind trump that putin is still on his side. the second thing, you can't quantify the importance of the releases that they are doing to help trump. for example, with releasing hunter biden information. since putin doesn't believe in favors, and the russians have an expression that the only free cheese is found in the mouse trap, they are trying to cause trump to believe that they are helping him, and if he were to get back in the office, they will expect a lot of things in return. the other part of this information war is to, again, create conflict, and division, exacerbate our divisions politically, and make the public doubt the ferocity of the election results, making russia seem like it is omnipotent, omnipresent, it is participating in everything, whether or not what they are doing has an actual impact on our elections. g has anso they are stirring upe on these two fronts. >> jason, let me ask you about this new ground commander that putin has put in place in ukraine. nicknamed the butcher, for what he did in syria, how big of a deal is this? >> well, let's put it in context. he has been on the ground as the third senior in this military action so far. so, let's give him a report card and great him as an f for failing. he was instrumental in syria, but it's a different kind of warfare. russians are always violent, the use mass, mercenaries, recruit minorities, they use a lot of people to throw at a problem and don't care how they get it done. again, the real advantage here lies in the ukrainians taking advantage of, one, repositioning of the russian forces while they are repositioning, and out of communications, you've got to hit them. number two, you've got to be more mobile than they are. that eight mile convoy you talked about earlier is a demonstration that russia has not got this right. you don't lineup tanks, ducks in a row, on elevated paved highways. that is just begging for a target. i will say one final thing on the information from russia coming out to disturb the election, i think julia gets it right in the end, by saying, look, the russians are trying to mess around. they will take credit for anything. they hope to sow dissension among us. the real frank truth is, they aren't going to be able to impact the vote by vote election coming up this fall. let's not take them too seriously, the russians, we could have the maligned. >> julia, take us to the russian living room. as we are watching this russian convoy move, and we are bracing for the upcoming attacks, what are russian people seeing on tv? what do they know about it? >> on their regular plain vanilla news channels, they are basically sticking to very simplistic portrayal of what is going on. the russian troops are supposedly doing great, they don't have many casualties, most casualties are on the ukrainian side, and everything is going according to putin's genius plan, which is the only way they would ever dare to talk about it. on their talk shows, where they discuss the news in more detail, and bring on military experts, they are starting to admit that a lot of information is getting through, and how or are demanding more censorship, which they say in a time of war is reasonable. i found it interesting, this one top propagandist mentioned that he was having a conversation with one of the wounded russian soldiers who complained to him about the western portrayal of this war, and the propagandist responded to him, don't worry about it, history is written by the victors. after we win, we will write it our way. to me, that was a telling glimpse that they are aware of what is really happening, they are aware of the way the media in the west is covering it, but ordinary russians are told not to read it, not to watch it, because it is enemy propaganda and, once they win, the west will move on and they will portray these events in whichever way they like to. >> rewriting history. julia davis, thank you so much for joining us, jason beardsley as well, thank you both. few americans know the dangerous up blood and we are putin better than our next guest, bill browder. i am honored he is with us. he is the founder and ceo of hermitage capital management, he became a political activist and one of the kremlin's biggest enemies after his tax lawyer was tortured and later died in a moscow prison. his advocacy led to the passage of the global magnitsky justice, dozens of countries which imposes sanctions on russian oligarchs, and those post close to putin himself. his new book, freezing order, a true story of money laundering murder, and surviving vladimir putin's wrath is in stores tomorrow. bill, thank you for joining us tonight. someone you know very well, russian opposition activist, vladimir kara-murza has been detained yesterday. i want to share with you what he has told us on this show a couple of weeks ago. watch this. >> this is not only about restoring international stability, and restoring peace in the middle of europe, but it is also about saving our own country, saving russia from this paranoid, deranged, and dangerous man. >> our own ali velshi spoke to him yesterday. how significant is this potential arrest? >> well, it is hugely significant. what america remorse is one of the major voices criticizing putin from within russia. almost everyone else is scared to do that. he is trying to show that they should all do that. and being arrested is a very scary thing. we know bad things happen to people, enemies of the putin regime who were arrested. i have big fears for what may come next. the power of putin's wrath is on the world stage. you know first i noticed like to be targeted by him in the wartime. given where he is now, how concerned are you? >> it's terribly concerning, i was like having dinner with vladimir kara-murza two weeks ago when he was in london. i begged him not to go to russia. and he said, i have to go because if i'm asking the people of russia to stand up to putin, how tightly afraid to go? and i said, it's a war. we're at war with them. there's nothing anyone can do. if you are arrested, and they decide to go after you. but he chose to go. and it says a lot about him as a brave individual. but it's also extremely scary for those of us who know him and care about him. >> another boon expert told the new york times that american presidents from george bush to barack obama never fully understood who putin was or what he's capable of. do you get with that assessment? and if so, i would not facing the consequences of that today? >> i completely agree with that. yeah george bush he said, he looked putin in his eye and you saw a soul. you saw president obama who said we have to set restrictions. and trump said he's a good guy. and here we are. and by the way, all these presidents look the other way when putin did that rubble stuff. when he invaded georgia, no consequence. he took crimea, no serious consequence. he bombed civilians in syria, no consequence. poison use in in england, no consequence. and putin got to think, he can do anything no consequence. so if there had been consequences before, i don't think we would be in this position right now. >> when you think about will redoing now? >> it's too little too late. once wind get started on these things, he came back down. he has no reverse gear. he doesn't know compromise. he has to show strength. so we're in a battle to the end. either he gets defeated by the ukrainians, or he wins and he ends up coming for us next in estonia with nato, or poland, or something like that. >> then, if you are advising president biden, and nato, what should we do right now? >> we should do is give ukrainians everything they ask for. more military quitman. >> they want a no-fly zone. >> yes, and they should give a no fly zone. >> even of this escalate set into world war iii type scenario? >> we are already in a three world war iii type scenario. if we told putin we want to back down because we're so afraid of a world war iii type scenario, then he will continue to threaten until we are in a world war three times scenario. he only understands strength, and we have to demonstrate strength. >> and your new book you write this about him, quote, the magnitsky act put all of his wealth and power to risk. and made him a very angry man. his crusade against the magnitsky act wasn't just philosophical, it was personal. we had genuinely had vladimir putin's achilles heel. explain that in how all of these sanctions are hurting him. and even the magnitsky act, putin has become one of the richest man on the entire world. >> he is the richest man in the world. he has stolen an enormous amount of money from the russian people. and that money is held by oligarchs and the list. and so, as we look at this war, we say, how do we stop him? one of the ways we can stop him is by cutting off a supply of money. and how do we do not? we freeze the central bank reserves. we freezes offshore money by going after the oligarchs. and the third thing we have to do is stop buying oil and gas. does something for the europeans, because every day, we sent him a billion dollars to fund his war with ukraine but buying his oil and gas. >> then let me ask you about the sanctions over all, do you think we are really punishing putin or the oligarchs? or have they had plenty of time to figure out where to scroll them on your way so when i even touching their wealth. to sanction's daughters last friday, i'm pretty sure over the course of the last seven weeks, they figure out where to hide their though. >> there's no question that they've had in there though. but the key is to go after the oligarchs. they're the rich ones. they're the corporate sized individuals. at the moment to sanction them, even if they've had in their money away, they can move in around. no bank will except their money. they can transact. it becomes like, the bloodstream or the blood stop slumping. you put them on the sanctions list, it's devastating. don't let anyone tell you otherwise. >> are they feeling pena? >> oh my god are they feeling pain! serious pain. this is a good thing, we should do more of it. we're going to sanction two dozen of these guys. we should go for the full 100. >> all right, bill, thanks so much for joining, us i really appreciate it. bill browder, again, his new book is called freezing order, a true story of money laundering, murder, and surviving latimer putin's wrath. and source tomorrow. coming up, investigators say the evidence of the january six is there. so what does that mean? the dilemma for those looking to hold donald trump accountable, and later, following the money. how did an 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but we welcome one of the reporters on that very story, chuck rosenberg, former u.s. attorney and former senior fbi official. luke, break this down for us. the arguments from those in favor, and those against the criminal referral. because a civilian like me would, think a civilian -- a criminal referral, no debate, the crimes a crime. >> the january six committee is a legislative committee. and the primary function, the primary duty is to write the authoritative report about january six. and to recommend changes to laws that can prevent something like this from happening again. that said, in the course of their duties, they have said that if they pick up information about crimes, they will consider referring them to the justice department. we now know from the committee, from top investigators, from the vice chair herself on cnn that they do have that evidence. they do have enough evidence to make that referrals. the question now as a political one. is it in their interests to look like they are encouraging the justice department to make this prosecution? or should they simply lay out that evidence in a report. and then let the justice department take it from there. so, in some ways, the referral may be a semantic issue where you have a report saying something very similar to what referral could be. it just wouldn't come in a letter directly to the justice department. but this is the type of discussions that are underway right now. >> chuck, despite looks excellent reporting and laying out so eloquently, it's still dizzying for the american people. i got that the committee is worried about looking partisan, but it's not something that should concern the attorney general or the doj? >> well, stephanie, imagine your that tony general. you want to play down the middle. you want to be a political and nonpartisan. you want to follow the facts and apply the law. i don't see how a criminal referral from the house helps you at all. here's why, stephanie. first of all, the department of justice doesn't need a criminal referral. they have the thorny that is already inherent to bring criminal charges if they need to. also, referral has no evidentiary value. it has no legal value. it is no president potential value. it's a political act. so if you are in a political attorney general, and you get a mostly partisan referral asking you to do something, will you know why, that could be counterproductive. and so, i heard what he said at the beginning. i disagree with you rarely, and with some trepidation. but i think that making a criminal referral is a very bad idea. >> but does it tell us of the department, of the tiny general has not acted but the committee says they have something, does that mean that there isn't something that reaches the standard for the doj to act? >> possibly, that's one explanation. you can make a criminal referral on a letter as described simply because you think you have enough information. that would be of interest to the broad portman of justice. that's all well and good. to bring a criminal charge you need a reasonable probability of conviction. that's our standard and the department of justice. and that means convicting a jury unanimously of proof beyond a reasonable doubt. so there could be a chasm between white house thinks they have, and that they believe insufficient, and with the department of justice believes it needs in order to ask a grand jury to return a charge against somebody. >> so, it for the january six committee is doing has no influence on the department of justice, could the department of justice be investigating the former president and we just don't know? >> absolutely, in fact if they argue that, maybe using a federal grand jury. and the rules of criminal procedure where prosecutors and agents did not disclose publicly the work before a federal grand jury until and unless they bring charges. that could absolutely be the case, stephanie. >> look, your reporting says that the committee has now interviewed more than 800 witnesses and has another hundred interviews lined up. how close are they to lap wrapping this up? >> it's described to me that they are coming to the final stages of their investigatory change. and the senate answer what they calder public facing stage. so then the next month or so, they should be done with their interview. mostly done with their interviews. they leave the door open that they could bring in people again, or if you evidence comes up they can keep investigating it. but then they will shift delaying out sort of a public education phase where there will be a series of hearings starting in may or june. and then a public report scheduled tentatively for september. those things can always get shifted as evidence comes in. but, they're getting close here to finishing up their work. they are still some of the questions left. there are some of a key witnesses who have not yet come in. there's a couple that is been scheduled that could be quite revelry. we're gonna have to make decisions about whether they ultimately call for donald trump himself and vice president mike pence himself to come in. and those are decisions that are still an open question for the committee. >> chuck, switching topics, the white house cracking down on those untraceable ghost guns they are now requiring serial numbers on the parts. a serial number seems like common sense, but congress are saying that this is government overreach, which is it? >> it is common sense, it is not overreach. if you were to buy a gun by a licensed dealer stephanie, you would give that person your name, your date of birth, your social security number, your address and on that form would be the list of the weapons or weapon that you are buying with the serial number. with the make, with the manufacturer. so if we find that gun at a crime scene, we have a lead we have evidence. we know who we need to talk to. we are finding lots and lots of ghost guns. coast guns without serial numbers at crime scenes. and that makes it more give the occult to find the people responsible for the crime and how hold them responsible. >> before you go chalk, you know the presidents choice to head up the 80th. what should we know about this man? steve double back, a man we are not familiar with. >> good man. career federal prosecutor in cleveland ohio. served as a u.s. attorney. and an important office in cleveland ohio. i know him, i like him, i trust him. i think he will be an excellent head of the atf. i hope it gets confirmed. >> i know him, i like him, i trust him. if that is not the chuck rosenberg seal of approval. chuck, always good to see you, luke, you as well. great reporting tonight. coming up, the two billion dollar investment raising all sorts of ethical red flags, maybe some financial wants to, when the 11th hour continues. hour continues it's hard to picture the future when you're not sure how to get there. it's more like...a feeling. a free plan from 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despite doubts from the crown prince's own investment team. the times reporting the following, quote, the full board, led by crown prince mohammed bin salman, saudi arabians de facto ruler and beneficiary of jared kushner's support when he worked as white house adviser, overruled the panel. for more, let us get in one of the reporters on that very story, kim kelly, she covers money influence and policy for the new york times and is a cnbc contributor. >> this is quite a story. jared kushner has only ever worked for his parents and for his father in law. he has never managed money for anyone, how unusual is it for the saudi government to give someone with no background in investing two billion bucks tibet manage. but >> i think it is pretty unusual i think about soft bank group which started the vision fund and did not have direct experience in this area even though there are a multinational conglomerate. it is very unusual. as you will see from our story staff and from the documents that we looked at, there were a lot of reservations expressed at the senior official a level in this public investment fund which manages 620 billion dollars for saudi arabia's people. they talked about unsatisfactory due diligence, i.e. research and potential investment in all respects. they talked about the lack of experience by the principal, in this case jared kushner. they talked about fears that the p.i. f would bear the bulk of the risk and responsibility for helping this fund to succeed. and also bearing the downside if it did not but. >> what happened, they just overrule them and said he's -- >> we do not have all the details. but we know that this official panel that is charged with reviewing investments on behalf of the bumpy eight but my on june 30th of 2021 and that the majority of them were not comfortable proceeding at that time. however, about a week later, the full board, which is chaired by mbs approved the investment. a little bit of a gap in terms of our understanding of what happened between the one and the other but. clearly the board found differently. >> but they did not just give him money, they are paying higher fees than other people they are invested with. they are also invested with another former trump administration official, treasury secretary steve mnuchin and you reported this. saudis agreed to pay mr. mnuchin's firm only a 1% asset management free, compared to one and a quarter percent for mr. kushner's. so on a two billion dollar investment, that would pay kushner's firm 25 million bucks a year. 25 million bucks a year before he even makes one single investment, he gets to take that home. now steve mnuchin, like him or not, actually has a good track record as an investor. how can i explain this, jet gets an extra quarter point kiss? >> as you know stuff, first of all, these rates are actually lower than your typical two and 20 model 2% management fee for a private equity fund, but yes, even within that, you have a clear contrast between mnuchin and kushner in these documents that we are reviewed. with mnuchin they say, due diligence, very satisfactory, where they are especially happy, not only with his past track record, but his future interest, which includes cybersecurity, media and entertainment. his treasury experience is very jermaine, we will give him a 1% management fee at one billion dollars to work with. in jarred's case, as we have discussed, they were concerned, they were not satisfied with the due diligence and yet, they give him two billion dollars that a one and a quarter management fee. so yes, if you talk to folks in the region about these interactions with jared kushner and why the sovereign wealth funds might invest with them, not all have by the way, david kirkpatrick and i have reported that the emiratis for example were hesitant to invest with jared kushner, because of the lack of a track record, but those who do, it is hard not to see it as a potential wielding of power. trying to keep relations cordial between the folks that they knew and trusted in the trump administration, who after all, may be empowered again if the former president chooses to run again in 2024 and is successful. >> and then even if this stinks to the high heavens, even if this is just a thank you note for all of the help and support that kushner game, especially around that greenlight, after u.s. intelligence confirmed the responsibility of green-lighting khashoggi's killing on the part of mbs, jared kushner overruled that and supported mbs. so could this all just be mbs saying thanks jarred and it is legal? >> well, i mean, there is no doubt that there has been a report between those two leaders. prince to go mohammed and jared kushner. whatsapp bodies, spent a lot of time together. kushner was there numerous times during the trump administration and has been in the past year is my understanding. and you are absolutely right, i think kushner was a revolved in negotiating deals with american companies to the tune of 110 billion dollars in weapons purchases by the saudis from american manufacturers and he urged a soft touch when it came to his father in law responding to the intelligence reports suggesting very strongly that mbs directed the killing and dismemberment of jamal khashoggi. and of course there is the war in yemen and the fact that little or nothing was done to try to delay that, or put a stop to it in terms of the saudi's involvement in the american influence potential over the saudis. so yes, you've got a lot of steps there that suggest that kushner in particular was soft on mbs. now, right now, whether this is a thank you, whether this is regarded as a down payment on for a future political capital, ethics experts would tell you they're worried. what's interesting though, it is not illegal, there is no law or even a rule, even a right house rule for echoing staffers that would prevent this kind of situation from happening. i >> know i am out of time, but i have to ask, any comment from team jarred to your reporting? >> i do not remember the exact words, but they told us something to the effect that we are proud to have investors that carry a thorough due diligence like the pdf. and they did not elaborate beyond that. >> did you ask for an interview with jarred? >> of course. and they were proud to say no thank you. >> that's an important thing for our audience to take away. proud to get investors, not so proud to sit down with the stellar reporting led by kate kelly, kate, thank you so much, appreciate you joining. coming up, what elon musk could end up being a even bigger headache for twitter if he is not sitting on the board of directors, when the 11th hour continues. inues. a hideous curse. uhh, i mean the whole turning people to stone thing was a bit of a buzz kill, right? so she ordered sunglasses with prime, one day delivery. ♪♪ clever girl. people realized she's actually hilarious once you get to know her. eugh. as if. ♪♪ 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tell your doctor right away if you have new or worsening symptoms, including breathing problems, cough, chest pain, a change in your heartbeat, dizziness, yellowing of the skin or eyes, dark urine, tiredness, loss of appetite, abdomen pain, bleeding, bruising, fever, chills, or other symptoms of an infection, a severe or worsening rash, are or plan to become pregnant, or breastfeeding. avoid grapefruit during treatment. ask your doctor about living longer with kisqali. that oddly satisfying feeling when you don't do it yourself. there are more questions tonight about the future of twitter. the world salute richest men and largest individual shareholder of the company backed out of bonds they joined its board of directors. that means he is not free to expand the stake even further. twitter ceo released and will to stop saying this, in part, there will be distractions ahead, but our goals on priorities remain unchanged. decisions we make and how we execute is in our hands, no one else is. i don't know about that, so let's bring in to discuss, casey neumann. he's a founder and editor of the platform news and contributing editor to the verge. casey, you know this man very well. you long mosque. a lot of people saw the news that he wasn't joining the board. and there were relief saying, it's not gonna shake things up. but isn't the exact opposite going to happen as a result of him not joining the board? he's got a bigger stake than anyone. >> that's exactly right. i'm not only that, but he's no longer bound by the rules he'd agreed to as -- joining the board. early, when some of the company have to pledge to honor the fiduciary responsibilities of the shareholders. and then of course, immediately after saying he would do that, elon began tweeting all sorts of crazy things. so, now he can keep on doing that. and you won't have to worry about show how the lawsuits. >> so now he's going to get anything you want. this is a huge shoulder, and he will use the twitter platform to push all of his demands. to hate tweet at them as much as he wants, and get the millions of people follow him all wound up. isn't his dream outcome? >> it seems that way to me, but i think it's worth noting that we don't really know what's elon once. i think the best theory of the case that i've heard is that this is the world's richest man simply trying to have some fun. he clearly loves using twitter. i think the idea that he would want to own a huge chunk of it and sort of make it more fun for him personally to use makes a lot of sense. but with this you want beyond that? is their financial outcome that he's looking for? does he want to own a lot more of the company that he does now? these are all big question marks that so far elon hasn't really said anything about it. >> does it seem like this is an investment he's looking to make money on? or is this an investment he's using as a disruptor. he has an awful lot of fun on twitter as is. >> he does, and what's interesting is, when elon musk's likes something, those top price just goes up. on paper, i think is already made about a billion dollars on his investment into twitter. for most investors, that would be an incredible outcome. for elon, is just kind of another day in the market. so, he remains a fascinating figure, but i think not one that many of us fully understand. >> any reason to believe the fcc is taking issue with how he acquired the stop on the timeframe in which he did? >> there is. if you require 5% of a public company, you're supposed to file something with the scc letting people know. sort, of giving other shareholders a heads up about what's happening. elon didn't do that. he filed behind schedule. and as a result, the washington post reported that he had been able to acquire his shares on twitter at what wound up being a discount of 100 and $56 million. so, that is the sort of thing that the fcc generally takes an interest and. and i think it will be somewhat surprising if he doesn't face at least some kind of fine for the way that he won about this. >> the question will be, will define be greater less than 156 million? most likely, less than. casey, great to have you, and elon musk expert in the house. thank you, and coming up, president zelenskyy's gut wrenching plea to the world to stop using russian oil. when the 11th hour continues. when the 11th hour continues when the 11th hour continues here we go... remember, mom's a kayak denier, so please don't bring it up. bring what up, kayak? excuse me? do the research, todd. listen to me, kayak searches hundreds of travel sites to find you great deals on flights, cars and hotels. they're lying to you! who's they? kayak? arr! open your eyes! compare hundreds of travel sites at once. kayak. search one and done. i have moderate to severe plaque psoriasis. now, there's skyrizi. with skyrizi 3 out of 4 people achieved 90% clearer skin at 4 months, after just 2 doses. skyrizi may increase your risk of 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that note, i wish all a very good night, and from all of our colleagues across the network of nbc news, thank you for staying up late with us. i'll see you at the end of tomorrow. end of tomorrow it's really nice to be back. if this faces not seem familiar, if you are not quite used to seeing somebody else at this hour, hello, it's nice to meet you, i'm rachel. i've been away from the show for a few weeks. i took a hiatus to give myself a little reset and also to work on some other msnbc projects that i've got cooking. i gotta tell you, the hiatus has been fantastic. i am really grateful for it. i know it is an unusual thing to get in this business. i'm very grateful to msnbc and the president for letting me do it.

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