and world leaders want to know, is putin bluffing or is an invasion of ukraine imminent? we will sort through all the questions facing the white house, pentagon and the cia with a guy who has worn all of the hats and worked in all of those buildings, leon panetta. ♪♪ . good day, welcome to "meet the press daily," i'm chuck todd. the one-year anniversary of the january 6th insurrection is almost here. senate minority leader has made it clear democrats are hoping that they can affix eyeballs on voting rights. >> insurrection of january 6th, the flurry of new voter restriction laws and state level efforts to subvert democracy are not isolated developments but manifestations of the same anti-democratic poison of donald trump's big lie. and they all demand the same solution. the senate must advance legislation to protect our democracy and safeguard the right to vote. >> but when democrats talk about saving democracy and preventing another january 6 from happening again are they talking about combating republican efforts to subvert future election results? are they talking about expanding and protecting access to the ballot box? are they talking about campaign finance reforms, voting rights, election administration? pro democracy advocates will say you have to address all of it. it's all important. it's a huge legislative task for congress. a congress that hasn't been able to do many huge tasks. democrats right now are struggling with how to tackle the problem both legislatively and politically. even whether they're meeting the actual moment that we're facing. it's unclear if chuck schumer is trying to sell legislation to address the issue or trying to sell rule changes in the senate so democrats don't need republican support to pass legislation on this issue or is it both? >> there are different proposals out there -- >> senator, the specifics matter here. >> i'm not -- i am not going -- there are a variety of different proposals, we're discussing them, we have a discussion today, seven or eight senators and me are meeting with senator manchin to discuss the different types of proposals, but there are a variety of them. the bottom line is this, they must allow us to pass these two vital pieces of legislation even if not a single republican joins us. >> so it goes without saying in this 50/50 senate the democrats aren't going to make any progresses on rules changes on legislation without the support of joe manchin and likely kyrsten sinema. this morning manchin reiterated his opposition without bipartisan support calling the filibuster carve out a heavy lift and unsustainable. where does this leave the democratic party on this issue? we will speak to a democratic senator in a moment but we will begin with shannon letty piece and leigh ann caldwell on capitol hill. shannon, the president of the united states in july of last year, actually -- why don't we remind voters of the imminent alarm he had for the country about the concern of democracy. i would like to play that now. >> i've said it before, we're facing the most significant test of our democracy since the civil war. that's not hyperbole. since the civil war. the confederates back then never breached the capitol as insurrectionists did on september 6th. i'm not saying this to alarm you, i'm saying this because you should be alarmed. >> shannon, when they address it, they address it with urgency. but you and i know how they've spent the last six months and it wasn't on how to try to figure out how to get this voting rights law passed. what is their strategy now and is this just another speech because this is the week of january 6 or they're serious this time? >> reporter: well, we have heard the president echo that similar message several times, but voting rights advocates, people close to the white house, allies of the white house as you noted for the past year have been criticizing this administration for not doing enough, for putting the focus on infrastructure and this build back better social spending bill. we have not seen the large bipartisan groups brought to the white house to try to hammer out something on voting rights. we have not seen the president go across the country doing a sales pitch type tour for voting rights legislation like we saw him do heavily for infrastructure and the social spending bill. those are all things that the white house could do. of course, they're starting off the year with the overhang of covid and this pandemic and not really seeming to be on the forefront and the front burner. once, again, voting rights has that risk of being placed on the back burner by more pressing issues, but, chuck, as you know very well we are now officially in 2022, an election year, and democratic strategists i talk to say that this is one of the biggest issues for democratic voters, particularly black voters, who came out in very large numbers to get this president elected, to give democrats the senate. when i have talked to some of these voting rights groups, talked to some of the civil rights groups they say there is an enormous amount of apathy among black voters because they are not seeing a focus on voting rights. so the white house i know is certainly hearing that message from sources, but i guess the question remains what can they actually do about it and is it going to be able to move itself to the front burner in 2022 like it couldn't in 2021. >> shannon, do you have any sense that the white house has got -- wants to be more involved with this issue, are they going it continue to let congressional democratic leaders try to handle themselves and we've seen how that's worked out with build back better, for instance? >> reporter: i mean, it's a new year. i think there's going to be some reset going on. i certainly know there's reset going on with regards to build back better. it's according to what people in the white house are saying they're coming and trying to figure out what they can do on that front as well as on voting rights, but, you know, the indications if past is any pro log have been that the president's priority will be on this border social spending rights bill and this is something they view as an issue for schumer and democrats to work out amongst themselves and having the president there to back up and support it. >> shannon, that means we're putting the ball in leigh ann's court. is there a plan here or is this just a january 6th pr stunt that's going to disappear as soon as they decide to focus on build back better in two weeks? >> reporter: well, there's a couple things, chuck. first, what shannon just said, senate democrats are going to be extremely frustrated if the white house thinks that this is a senate problem because before the holidays they were expressing their frustration toss me privately that they think that president biden needs to do more on voting rights, more on the rules change and including vice president kamala harris who this is supposed to be one of her issues and so they are expecting a lot from the white house on this issue. now, as far as if this is just going to be a two-week blip where they're going to focus on this issue, we will wait to see, but schumer did indicate in his letter to his colleagues yesterday that once as we expect republicans block the voting rights legislation, once it comes to the floor as early as next week most likely, then senator schumer will force a vote -- i'm sorry -- a debate and perhaps action on changing the senate rules. we don't know what that's going to look like, but what it could do at a minimum is put every single senator, including democrats, on the record on where they stand. so he is trying to call senator manchin and senator sinema's -- i won't call it a bluff because i don't think they're bluffing on where they stand. >> right. >> reporter: but put pressure on them, devote separately from the rest of the party on this issue. senator schumer has two weeks to get these two on board or have a very potentially very embarrassing vote on the senate floor. and then manchin's gaggle, one thing that i did hear from him or i did not hear from him is completely closing the door on changing the senate rules. now, i'm extremely skeptical that he is going to come around to it and he might just be leading us on again like he does so many times, but he said he's still talking and he did lay out a couple of options, chuck. >> i hear you there, but let me ask you this, is senator schumer trying to pass a bill or change the rules? meaning is there going to be a negotiation to actually put a bill on the floor that meets the moment of january 6, or are they going to continue to try to pick a fight over campaign finance and all of these other things that are worthy goals but frankly are things that get partisanly debated, or are they going to try to narrow this bill and actually focus on the problem or face it? >> reporter: well, they think that this bill does deal with the problems that we are facing, of course, there's a lot of skepticism in that, especially one of the biggest problems that we're seeing around the country is that these election deniers are placed in these ceo critical roles and election roles in these states across the country, and that could perhaps be one of the biggest problems that this bill doesn't necessarily address directly. so schumer is trying to pass legislation, but he also is trying to -- or perhaps change the senate rules to do so. i think they are hand in hand at this point, but, you know, are the senate rules going to change just on this one legislation, something bigger or more legislation? it's just a big discussion and we don't have a lot of clarity on what he's going to do yet. >> no, we haven't. look, he holds a lot of cards close to his vest. he didn't inform a lot of people about what joe manchin had said to him in july on build back better and somewhat argue created five months of the world that we lived in covering congress the last five months. shannon and leigh ann, thank you for getting us started. i want to turn to a lawmaker who would like to see new elections legislation, joining me a senator chris van hollen. senator, it's been hard to get voting rights to be a focus, 100% focus of the senate, 100% focus of the presidency, 100% focus of congress, and that was in 2021, which is an odd-numbered year. what's the realistic chances you will be able to make changes in an even-numbered year? >> chuck, it's good to be with you. this is a moment of truth for protecting the future of our democracy, as you say, we're coming up on the anniversary of the notorious attacks on our democracy of january 6th and since that failed to overturn the presidential election you have seen these republican-controlled state legislatures putting up barriers to voting and in some cases putting in place provisions that would allow partisan elected officials to overturn the count. so we've got to do that, this is a now or never moment. senator schumer said we're going to take this up and vote on it before january 17th and we're going to push forward to have that vote. >> what are you pushing for here, though? a piece of legislation that will meet the moment or changing the rules of the senate to do it with 50 senators or is this one and the same conversation? >> well, we already have all 50 democratic senators on the freedom to vote act, which is already a somewhat narrowed version of the bill that came over from the house, the for the people act. so now the question is reforming our senate rules and senator manchin has said that he wants -- wanted time to get republicans on board, either enough to support the freedom to vote act or republicans to reform the rules. it looks very clearly like that's not happening now and so now is the moment that we have to move forward as senator manchin said today, earlier today, the american people need to have faith that their votes will count. and the only way to do that at this point in time is to pass the freedom to vote act and the only way to do that means reforming our rules to allow the senate to actually debate, which is the original vision of the senate as a place where people will debate at length, but at the end of the day where majority rules, and you don't have the minority that can block the will of the american people. >> senator, what do you say to someone that says, you guys have been -- you have had the majority for a year, january 6th literally the day january 6th happened is the day that the two georgia senate seats were declared for the democrats, so you knew the majority was yours. i could understand approximate voters because i've heard from them who say what the heck have you guys been doing for a year? how this is a priority? where is the urgency? what would you say? >> you're right, this has been an urgent matter for the entire year. we have been working and had focus on this in every one of our senate democratic caucus meetings. what's different now is time is running out because as you point out we are in the election year, state legislatures, republican-run state legislatures continue to put up barriers so we've got to get this done. these would establish national standards to protect people's voting rights. republicans used to be in favor of this until they were taken over by the big lie and so we've been pushing to try to get the votes to get this done for over a year, now we're going to have the vote, senator schumer has been very clear, we will have that vote, everyone will have to go on record in the light of day and in my view it's a referendum on whether or not we want to protect our democracy or not in passing the freedom to vote act. >> i guess what i'm asking is, you know, with the bipartisan infrastructure deal the white house convened republicans and democrats and had meetings about this. maybe i missed it, but have i seen -- why haven't we seen meetings like that at the white house on voting rights? there are supposedly 3 to 15 republicans, you know who they are, they showed up for the bipartisan infrastructure talks. why haven't we seen that take place in the last year, six months, three months? >> well, chuck, there has been an effort and as you've seen one republican senator, senator mccal ski has indicated some possibility of supporting the john lewis voting rights act, which we also want to move forward on, but with some changes. we've not gotten anywhere close to republicans supporting the freedom to vote act to establish these national standards, and mitch mcconnell, who in the end supported the bipartisan infrastructure bill, has made it very clear to his caucus and to the country that he adamantly opposes this voting rights legislation and this legislation to protect the right to vote. he thinks it's a matter to leave to state legislators, even when state legislatures are stripping away people's ability to have their vote count. >> look, i know -- >> that means we have to do it -- that means we've got to do it with the 50 democrats and that means we need to reform the rules in order to protect our democracy. we should not allow an archaic rule to prevent us from protecting the right to vote across the country. >> there's no doubt the rule is looking more archaic every day. i guess my attitude is i wish more people would get caught trying. we keep talking about some of these problems and sometimes it's sort of like -- it's a lot of talk, it's a lot of rhetoric and there's a lot of inaction, senator. >> that's why, chuck, you will see a vote. you will see a vote, whatever the results is, the american people will have a chance to see where people stand on this issue. >> all right, sir. i really appreciate you coming in. i know, trust me, traveling or doing anything around here these days very, very dfkt. senator van holland, thanks very much. coming up, we are going to talk more about these trying times for the democracy with a man who has had a seat at the forefront of u.s. elections for more than 45 years. new hampshire secretary of state bill gardner who just announced he's retiring. he joins me live. up next, and after that, a new year, new negotiations. we have just heard from a key swing state senator, joe manchin, for the first time this year. congresswoman pramila jayapal joins us with her reaction to where build back better may be headed. you're watching "meet the press daily." headed yoreu' watching "meet the press daily. where build back better may be where build back better may be and there you have it. woah. wireless on the most reliable network nationwide. wow. big deal. we get unlimited for just 30 bucks. sweet, but mine has 5g included. relax people. my wireless is crushing it. that's because you all have xfinity mobile with your internet. it's wireless so good, it keeps one-upping itself. take the savings challenge at xfinitymobile.com/mysavings or visit an xfinity store to learn how our switch squad makes it easy to switch and save hundreds. as election officials we personify democracy, so to the extent that democracy itself is under attack right now as it is, those who personify it the election administrators whose job it is to make sure people get their ballots, that they are securely counted and the results are accurate, we are the ones, we are the people being targeted by those who want to target and dismantle democracy. welcome back. that was michigan secretary of state jocelyn benson raising concern that election officials who count ballots are continuing to find themselves in the cross hairs as democratic institutions are being undermined particularly by right wing propagandists led by the former president. joining me is new hampshire secretary of state bill gardner, he announced he will be stepping down after 45 years as new hampshire's top election official. if there is anybody who is an expert on election administration, it is you, mr. gardner. it is good to see you. congratulations on making that next -- on creating a new chapter in your life, but i don't want to close it yet. so let's put your expertise to work. write the bill you think senate democrats should be pushing right now when it becomes to protecting the integrity of this democracy at the ballot box. >> well, i can speak for new hampshire and what we have done here to protect the integrity and in this state the people in this state survey calls that were done after the last presidential primary and this -- the last presidential election actually trust the accuracy of the vote more than they do the powerball, and those are unh ground state polls of over 1,000 random new hampshire -- we -- and the ease of the vote. the people who actually vote, whether they feel it was very easy, somewhat easy, very difficult or somewhat difficult. after both the presidential primary and the general election, people were -- it was easy in the high 90 percentile. often a poll will be thrown out if it's like that because it can't be right, but -- so i -- i think that the u.s. senate should consider the election procedures that we have here because when the u.s. senate and the house back in 1993 passed the national voter registration act they were doing it because people believed it was the government's fault that people weren't voting because the government made it too difficult to register. so they came up with all these changes of how people can register and to make it as easy as possible. well, here we are seven presidential elections later, new hampshire became exempt from that law and we are also exempt from the help america vote act, the provision -- we don't have provisional ballots. we got exempt in '93 because we decided to keep election registration on a personal basis and so we had to have election day registration at the polls and since then the facts are the facts. new hampshire has been in the last seven elections since 1996 when that federal act was in all the states, new hampshire has been in the top ten the last four presidential elections, we had the third highest turn out in the country in each of the last four, the one before that we were fourth and the one before that we were sixth. the arguments that were made back in '93, my arguments, were totally refuted that, no, there's no way if you keep making these here you're going to get fewer people to vote but the statistics will show that. you see where the country have been in the last seven presidential elections and where we have been and we're not like the rest of the country. we don't have -- we are not under the national voter registration act and so -- >> well, let me -- let me try to summarize something that i think you said. it sounds like you said if the u.s. senate did one thing, which was created -- if every state replicated same day voter registration, it might eliminate all these other problems that come with election administrating when it comes to at least the voter rolls. is that your contention, is that that's the new hampshire example? >> that's part of it. the other part is that they would have to get rid of the other things that they have made the other states do. we don't have -- >> gotcha. >> our registration is a person to person registration and we were willing to have it on election day itself at the polling place to keep that person to person. you can't -- you can register by mail if you are out of town or if you are physically disabled, you can, but that's it, and our constitution cites those two examples. that's how you get the vote by absentee and that's how you get to register not being present. so they would have to get rid of -- but the facts are what they are and if they -- and i'm not saying that everyplace should be like new hampshire. >> right. >> but i also am saying we should not have to be like california. >> right. >> and our turnout is proof that what we have here is unique and we don't want to lose it. >> all right. let me get you out on this, speaking of unique, if you are not there in november of 2023 to set the state of the new hampshire primary, who is going to be saving the first in the nation new hampshire primary? with you gone -- why do i feel like you're walking away at a time when you realize it's going to be harder than ever to protect it? >> well, i can understand why you feel that way and you know a lot about my primary era and that always helps to experience it, but the genius of the new hampshire primary is the law that has tasked back in 1975 that provided for the flexibility to be able to keep it. and we had had it for over half a century before that. >> right. >> and we had to decide whether we are going to protect it in the future and we did and there's a person who has been in the office with me who will be replacing me and i have as much confidence in him as i have had in -- >> i tell you this, you know this -- you know my political -- my political reporting team, we're going to miss working with you, we're going to miss covering you, but i have a feeling your next chapter is going to be interesting as well. secretary gardner, it's good to see you. congratulations on such a long run. >> thank you, chuck. all right. up next we will be speaking with congresswoman pramila jayapal on her response to senator manchin making it pretty clear he's not interested in talking about build back better right now. omicron is sweeping the nation, we will look at how the path of destruction looks different. you're watching "meet the press daily." different. you're watching "meet the press daily. so you won't have a medicare in the world. ♪ ♪ plus, 90-day refills and same day delivery. larry? that's even less to medicare about. fill your medicare prescriptions with walgreens and save. ♪ ♪ ♪ i'm chi lan, i am a mom, and a real estate agent. after having a kid, everything that you used to do for yourself goes out the window. the lines that i was seeing in my forehead were getting deeper than i 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democrats continue to look for a path to get the build back better legislation passed. we heard from west virginia senator joe manchin a few hours ago fort first time this year, he said he has not restarted negotiations with the white house and doesn't seem inclined to get back to the table anytime soon. >> i'm really not going to talk about build back better anymore because i think i've been very clear on that. there is no negotiations going on at this time. okay? and there's an awful lot of things that had a lot of -- a lot of things that were very i think well-intended and there was a lot of things that was pretty far reach on some things and the most delicate times that we have right now and our country is divided and i don't intend to do anything that divides our country anymore. >> i'm joined now by the chair of the congressional progressive caucus congresswoman pramila jayapal of washington. congresswoman i won't start with a question other than react to what you just heard from senator manchin. >> well, chuck, happy new year, first of all, it's good to see. >> you happy new year. thank you. >> look, i think that there are two things happening right now, two pieces of legislation that are absolutely critical, one is voting rights and you've been talking about that on your show, and the other is build back better. i know from my conversations with the white house recently that the focus for the immediate week or two weeks coming up is on voting rights legislation because it is so critical. voter suppression is absolutely voter fraud in my opinion and there are over 400 voting rights bills that have been introduced in state legislatures just since january 6th. now, that does not mean that we are not also going to push forward on build back better and i know that senator manchin is key to both of those efforts. i know that the white house has told me that they are not in any way letting up the gas on build back better, and it is why the congressional can a progressive caucus and board put out a statement saying while we intend to push forward on legislation for build back better we are also pushing for the white house and the president to take executive actions on any number of things that are possible. i want to be clear that that is not going to achieve all of build back better. it would be a massive failure if we don't achieve all that is in build back better, but we also think that it's time to up the ante and make it clear to all the corporations pushing back against build back better that we need to get it done and it will get done. we will do prescription drug pricing executive action. we will do chang, fossil fuel executive action if we do not get the legislation done. so which would you rather have, the legislation or the executive action? because one way or another we are going to deliver for the american people. one last thing, chuck, i will just say senator manchin says he doesn't want to divide the country but i want to be clear that build back better is extremely uniting. republicans, independence and democrats support the vast majority of this bill and the critical provisions that lower costs for american people. >> how close are you to having to be resigned to the fact that maybe build back better is going to have to be split up? it was interesting to me what you put in the category of where some executive actions could be taken, you talked about prescription drugs, you talked about on some climate issues. you can't executive action your way around the child care tax credit. so given the importance of that lifeline to so many people, start of the year, gosh only knows how the -- you know, what we're dealing with i disrupting a lot of lives again, here we go again. that may be a lifelinele do you think you're going to have to split that off and deal with that independently? >> well, chuck, in my conversations with senator manchin and the president's conversations with senator manchin he has actually agreed to a whole bunch of things. the child tax credit, to be fair to him, was not one of them. he only agreed to a one-year extension in the framework. >> right. >> that is going to be a challenge for us no matter what. doesn't meep we're going to stop pushing for t i want to talk about child care, universal pre-k, elder care. he has agreed to all three pieces of the care economy part of the bill. he has agreed to housing. he has agreed to a lot of the work around health care subsidies, medicaid expansion and the aca subsidies. those pieces have been agreed to and i think that there are some pieces that haven't and we did put some things into the house bill that he had not agreed to, but that is why i'm urging us to go right back to the framework that he did agree to as a bottom line and then get as much else as we can get in there, but i really do think that these are -- we're very close and with tremendous respect to senator manchin he does say different things on different days. so i believe that we can still get a lot of build back better done and i believe it's actually the president's responsibility now to deliver on that because, as you remember, the president made a commitment to us based on president manchin's promise to him. >> it sounds like, congresswoman, you will take anything he will say yes to. i mean -- >> no. >> i'm bottom lining it too much. you're pretty close. >> no. >> that whatever he is a yes on you'll take? >> no. what i've said consistently is that he said yes to the framework that was unveiled before the president went -- we endorsed that framework. there were some things in the house bill that were more than that framework. i want to go at least to that framework because that is the place where there was tremendous negotiation, led, you know, in large part because the progressive caucus insisted that we were not going to let one bill go without the or the. so we now have the text, it should be pretty easy for senator manchin to go through and make sure that the text agrees with that framework that we all endorsed, that we all agreed to and that was the basis of the promise on which the president made his promise to us. so, you know, this is a critical moment, i'm not saying we're going to take anything he will agree to, i'm saying go back to what he agreed to because we endorsed that and it contained the vast majority of our priorities. >> has it turned out to be a lot more difficult to get the party to walk and chew gum? and i say this in this respect, both the income inequality issue in this country i think could eventually tear this country apart long term, and the current issue with the democracy is something that could tear us apart even quicker than that. i don't want to sit here and say one is more important than the other, right? one may be coming to a head sooner than the other. should there be more urgency on the voting rights situation right now? given the current state that we're in. >> i think both of these issues that you've mentioned rest on an ephemeral idea that we are supposed to do things in a bipartisan way. that obviously is what the founders intended, it's what we all wanted, but we have to understand that we are dealing with a republican party that has done everything they can to destroy our democracy. that is part of the plan, 400 voter suppression bills introduced since last january 26 following an insurrection is part of a coordinated plan to destroy our democracy. similarly, wealth inequality is part of a coordinated plan by the largest corporations, the wealthiest individuals who have done everything they can to stop progress. so i think that we need to stop thinking that somehow this ephemeral idea of bipartisanship that manifests with the filibuster and, you know, some ability for people to block things from even coming to the floor for consideration. we're not even talking about voting no on a bill, we're talking about voting no on a motion to proceed on the final bill. >> right. >> and that's what i think we have to get rid of. listen, if we don't have the votes ultimately to do that then i think we do have to put the legislation up for a vote and the people that are opposing that, whether it's senators or anyone else in the country, have to think about how they're going to respond when we do not have a democracy because of some ephemeral notion of bipartisanship. >> congresswoman pramila jayapal, the conversation that we could dive deep into, spend 30 minutes on, an hour a day, you name it, but unfortunately i have a motion to proceed to my next segment. i appreciate the time. >> and i won't filibuster you. thank you, chuck. quick programming note, congressman adam schiff will join haley jackson to talk about the january 6th investigation, that will be today at 3:00 p.m. eastern right here on msnbc. and we will be right back. eastern right here on msnbc. anwed will be right back. ♪ babk by sir mix-a-lot ♪ unlimited cashback match... only from discover. at vanguard, you're more than just an investor, you're an owner with access to financial advice, tools and a personalized plan that helps you build a future for those you love. vanguard. become an owner. welcome back. the cdc just released some new data on the omicron variant showing omicron now accounts for, ready for this, 95% of new cases in this country. this as the u.s. surpasses 100,000 covid hospitalizations for the first time in four months. that's a 40% increase in two weeks, a quarter of all icu beds this this country are now occupied by just covid patients. yesterday the u.s. reported more than a million, yes, one million in one day, covid cases. that's a global record that pushed the nation's seven-day average upon 500,000. for context, more than 3.5 million americans tested positive for covid last week along. now, that's more covid in seven days than canada has reported in two years. by a lot. the staggering numbers come as states report holiday backlogs and test results from over the weekend. millions of students return from winter break to school systems under enormous strain, also they are doing a lot of tests. there is so much strain that more than 2,100 schools are expected to have to close amid record positivity rates and chronic staffing short annals according to our latest reporting at nbc news. turning to an ongoing dangerous story in the d.c. area that in some ways arguably has a tiny covid connection because you don't have enough staffing anywhere these days to deal with problems and that is thousands of people have been stuck in traffic on i-95 for more than 20 hours. drivers have been stranded since last night after yesterday's winter storm caused several accidents. it shut down a 40-mile stretch in both directions and created a traffic nightmare. many drivers ran out of gas, forced to deal with freezing temperatures and complicated efforts to get traffic moving again. among those stuck in the gridlock senator tim kaine who tweeted this photo. said he started his normal two hour drive to d.c. yesterday and he has yet to get near the capitol. we reached out to the senator's office who tells us he is still on the road 21 hours later. and we will be right back. roadr and we will be right back. . welcome back. nato has just scheduled a special meeting for friday to discuss the growing tensions along the russia/ukraine border. it's the latest sign that the u.s. and our nato allies are growing increasingly concerned about russia's actions which include amassing more than 100,000 troops along the border. president biden ended 2021 by warning putin not to invade and afifrmd the u.s.'s support for ukraine with a call to that country on sunday. i'm joined by the cia director under president obama and president clinton's white house chief of staff. good to see you. glad to see you're healthy and well. let me start with this issue with putin in this respect. i'm amazed at the number of people that are assuming he's going to back down yet again. what say you? >> well, chuck, let me also extend a happy new year to you, my friend, and you know, this country obviously is facing a series of crises abroad, but most importantly is being threatened by putin right now, who is basically using his old strategy of building up a lot of pressure here on the united states and our allies to try to force them to agree to his terms with regards to the ukraine, which isn't going to happen. but at the same time, you know, i don't think you can underestimate putin. if he senses weakness on the part of the united states, then i think he'll take advantage of it. i think that's the whole key, whether or not the united states is going to negotiate from strength or whether it will appear to be weak. that will determine what happens in the ukraine. >> there are some that argue that there already should have been consequences for him basically doing this little hostage taking scheme because that's what this is, right? amass troops at the border, see if you can force our hand, force us to pay attention, and create a concession to get him to back down. just by having the dialogue he's already gotten something of what he wants, shouldn't we already be punishing him for this move? >> well, frankly, we should have punished him a long time ago, not only for invading the crimea and taking advantage of the ukraine but going into syria, going into libya, and also conducting a pretty bold cyberattack against the united states in our election system. i'm a little concerned that we didn't make him pay a price for his aggression in the past. >> have we already shown weakness? are you concerned we've already shown weakness and that's what he's making a bet on? >> i don't think there's -- i don't think there's any question that putin has operated on the basis that he thinks he's dealing with a weakened america, and the real challenge for president biden is to make very clear that he is going to pay a price if he tries to invade the ukraine, and a heavy price at that, both in terms of his economy, the potential of using cyber against his infrastructure and his economy. the potential that we will continue to strengthen nato and deploy our forces to nato, and the fact that we'll provide military assistance to the ukraine. i think we've made pretty clear that he's going to pay a price, and that, frankly, is our leverage in trying to negotiate with this bully. >> i hear you, but that leverage, if you're in putin's shoes, you've withstood all the other prices. you've been able to afford it or at least, you know, what is the price that's bigger than sanctions, and let me ask you this. is the cia ready run another covid war because there's no doubt president biden -- we're not getting involved in a hot war here. it's going to be on your former colleagues at cia to do something. are they up for yet another covert war? >> there are a lot of ways we can go after the russians, and very frankly, you know, you're not dealing with a power that has both a strong economy and a strong political situation. russia's in trouble right now, and putin understands that. i mean, if -- you know, i guess, it was john mccain that said russia is largely a gas station combined with a state, and the fact is if anything impacts on his ability to provide oil and be able to impact on that delivery of oil, it will seriously injure russia. and putin knows that. i mean, he's already complained about what price russia is going to pay for these sanctions. so i think right now the whole push has to be to make very clear that we are not backing off of making sure he pays the price. that's going to be the key. >> are the european allies going to be there or how concerned are you? i mean, you look at this current -- you know, big fiver or six leaders of nato, president biden's under water, prime minister boris johnson is under water, there's a new german leader and there's always a new italian leader. how concerned are you about that situation? >> it's always cause for concern. frankly, it's the united states and our allies that represent the threat to russia, and if it looks like our allies are weakened for some reason and concerned about really being tough here, then it's going to hurt the united states' leverage in negotiating, so the real test is going to be, frankly, whether president biden can keep his arms around our allies, keep them tough, make them recognize that neither the united states or our allies can stand back and watch the ukraine being invaded by russia. if russia goes into the ukraine, it will send a terrible message to the rest of the world. >> it sure will. leon panetta, as always, sir, appreciate you coming on and sharing your experience and perspective. and thank you all forring with being with us this hour. msnbc's coverage will continue with my friend katy tur right after this quick break. quick bk people with moderate to severe psoriasis, are rethinking the choices they make 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begin an aspirin regimen. good to be with you, i'm katy tur. president biden is about to get briefed by his health experts, and after that he's going to speak to the public on the dizzying spread of omicron, a spread so far and wide now it is forcing shutdowns a

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