hospitalizations is actually outpacing the increase in adults that are hospitalized with covid. all of this poses a challenge for this president an his administration and unfurling human tragedy of incomprehensible proportions, difficult challenges with testing, particularly of school age children. and bedevilling politics around those life saving vaccines, masks and vaccine mandates. at a gathering of republican and democratic governors yesterday, president biden raised some eyebrows with his comments. an acknowledgment of the problems with testing while also calling for members of both parties to step up to the plate to help americans weather the pandemic. >> look, there is no federal solution. this gets solved at a state level. my message to the governor is simple. if he needs something, say something. and we, we're going to have your back any way we can. seeing how tough it was for some folks to get a test this weekend shows that we have more work to do. the bottom line is we want to assure the american people we're prepared. we know what it takes and as this group of bipartisan governors has shown, we're going to get through it by working together. >> that is where we start today with white house chief of staff, ron klain. the floor is yours. please add any necessary context you feel has been lost from those comments from president biden. >> i think what the president was saying is this is an effort that the federal government is leading in close partnerships with the state. the federal government provides the vaccines to the states. the federal government is massively expanding testing. we're standing up federally funding testing centers all over the country. federally funded efforts to help hospitals. so i think what you heard the president emphasizing yesterday in a conversation with a conservative republican governor from arkansas who opposes our federal vaccine requirements, none is less who's worked closely with this administration to try to make sure we're getting the help we need to the states. so this is a joint federal state effort led by the federal government. we have responsibility for the overall response. we're working closely with both democratic and republican governors without regard to partisan affiliation to help tackle the problems that this virus is spreading. >> i guess it's a sign that people hear what they want to hear. "wall street journal" editorial page liked the comment that there's not a federal solution and they went so far as to call on you and the president to drop the case before the supreme court about the mandates. i assume there's no chance of that. talk about that and its importance. >> look, when the president first announced we were going to vaccine requirements, we had 90 million americans who hadn't even gotten the first shot. since we started to put these requirements in place, that number's been cut by half. fewer than 40 million. we have to get more americans vaccinated. we have to get those who are vaccinated their booster shots. these vaccine requirements and the one before the supreme court to be heard on january 7th is a requirement that people i've worked with in large workplaces, exposed to many other workers and customers and consumers, that those people have to either be vaccinated or tested once a week. that is not that burdensome to say if you don't want to be vaccinated, you have to agree to be tested once a week. that's going to save a lot of lives, protect a lot of workers, keep our economy going and growing. we're not going to drop this requirement. we're going to argue the case before the supreme court on the 7th of january and hope the court will agree that the requirement imposed is lawful. >> is there a plan b? >> well, look, i think plan b if the supreme court strikes down that requirement is to continue to work with private employers to ask them, then it would be voluntary, to impose those requirements. many private employers have done it. why? because they know it makes workers safe. it makes our country safe. it's good for the economy. it's why we've been able to keep people employed and the economy growing during this past year. it saves lives. that's the bottom line. getting people vaccinated saves lives. you talked about the rising number of cases and that is obviously a challenge but you have not seen a commensurate increase at the same levels you saw last winter in hospitalizations and certainly not in deaths. why? because so many americans are vaccinated and so many americans are boosted. we've now gotten booster shots to almost two third of the people over 65 who are eligible for them. so we are protecting our vulnerable citizens, citizens with vaccinations and boosters. that's why we hope this rise in cases is not going to see the same kind of increase we saw last winter. >> let's turn to the new guidance. i saw the president say yesterday at that event that we played a little clip from that he would back whatever advice he got from the scientists and the docs and the advice was to shorten isolation from ten days to five. what do you make of the backlash from healthcare workers, nurses union and flight attendants? >> dr. fauci backed up the decision of the centers for disease control that five days is an appropriate time to isolate people if they return to work masked after that. why? because as you said, the sign is becoming clear that people are their most contagious really early on when they acquire the virus. sometimes before they're symptomatic and in the early days of their symptoms. we're going to let science decide this. we've let science decide this all the way through. that's been our touch stone in this response. sometimes that response makes people on one side angry, but i think a science-based response is going to save lives and make this country a better place. >> is the president open to or interested many moving toward a vaccine requirement for domestic flights? >> you know, as dr. fauci said and something we always look at, we have got these two vaccine requirements headed to the supreme court on january 7th. i think our plan is to see what the court does on those. i think that you know, there's little evidence that the virus is being spread by people while they are on airplanes. people are masked on planes, but we'll continue to look at this and see if it's something we need to do to fight the virus. right now, i think our focus is on those two vaccine mandates requirements coming before the supreme court on january 7th. they cover about 100 million people. i think it would be a significant step forward in protecting the public. >> omicron feels like this nightmare scenario and i take your point about hospitalizations. it gives me a great deal of sol larks but the news about pediatric hospitalizations is shocking and saddening and terrifying for everyone. and the pace at which omicron seems to take down, i don't know how many folks are out of your workplace, but at mine, it feels like designated survivor to be one of the humans walking around these halls. i wonder if you can just take me inside the early days of really your beginning to understand sort of the size and scope of this country's omicron wave. >> yeah, i think right after thanksgiving, right when we got the word about omicron being identified in southern africa, we got to work on stepping up the things we would need for a challenge of this scale. what you haven't seen, you saw last winter, reports of hospitals without masks or gloves or key gear. we've gotten that gear to the hospitals. also as the president announced, stepped up deployments of military doctors and nurses to hospitals all over this country to help them deal with the increase in cases and of course we're ramping up testing to deal with this surge. so we've been taking steps to prepare for this surge. the most important thing i can say to your audience, to every american is as we announced right after thanksgiving, it's important for everyone to get that booster shot if they're eligible. that is the best defense we have against omicron making you sick. there are people testing positive. people with both vaccinations and the booster testing positive, but very, very, very few of these people are winding up the serious illnesses or with serious consequences because they have the vaccination and the booster. that's the most important message i can get across today. >> are there any changes to sort of continuity of government or just less serious than that, of white house operations because of the fact that being thrice vaccinated and wearing a mask may not protect you from a positive in terms of the president and vice president? >> as always, we've been careful with the president and vice president. we've disclosed publicly when ever anyone is a close contact with them tests positive. we've seen that with both the president and vice president the past few weeks. they are obviously fully vaccinated and boosted. we mask up around them. we mask up inside. outside, that's why i'm not wearing a mask. we're going to have positive cases here. we're dealing with it. for the people who are fully vaccinated and boosted, the risk of some kind of serious illness is extremely low. >> why is the testing still not up to scale? >> well, look, we've rapidly ramped up testing and when we got here, there were no at-home tests. zero. none. zero. and about 5,000 sites where you could get a test. now we're over 25,000 sites where you can get a test and we're adding more every day. the federal government's now providing testing sites. in addition, we've gone from no at-home tests to getting them approved to go up from 50 million in october to over 200 million in december. between the ramp up of at-home and in-person tests, we've gone from a million and a half a year ago to almost 9 million today. as the president said yesterday, we need to do more. we're continuing to do more. as the president announced in next month, we'll have a site where you can go online and get free tests, but for people who want tests now, they're available at the major e-commerce retailers. we've required insurance companies to start to reimburse people if you buy one f those tests online. so we are ramping up tests and we're doing it, look, we test more than canada, germany, japan, other major industrial countries, but we need to do more. >> i know you have to go, but there's something the vice president and president have really found time even amid this omicron surge to give voice to. the push for federal voting rights legislation. is the president working behind the scenes to make sure that joe manchin maybe in return for delaying passage of build back better is a champion for a filibuster carve out on voting rights? >> well, you heard the president speak to this right before the holiday. i'm not going to talk about his private conversations with individual members of the is that the, but he is working with very much behind the scenes. he's talked to the senators involved in the voting rights issue. talks to senator schumer a couple of times a week. so we're looking forward to the senate coming back after the holidays and getting to work on voting rights. you can expect to hear the president and vice president do their best to try to get that very important bill passed in the senate in january. >> white house chief of staff, ron klain, whose desk holds every problem facing the country and world, thank you for taking some time to talk to us. >> thanks. for more on this conversation, let me bring in donna edwards, also jonathan lemire. and former chief spokesman for the justice department, matt miller. dear friends of this program. jonathan, let me start with you. the omicron wave is hitting this really sort of fatigued and agitated country maybe for the first time settling back into the concept of a return to a new normal. what do you make of the precarious spot we find ourselves in and the task of the white house who i'm sure would like nothing more to turn the corner on the pandemic? >> it's a herculean task. i talk to white house officials all the time and of course they're fatigued, too, but they also recognize this is the central premise and promise of the biden administration. he was elected, sure, to get rid of donald trump, but to also gain control over this virus. and now this is the second time where the nation just as it seemed like we were starting to return to some normalcy, first over the summer and now we've been crushed by a new variant. delta and now omicron. they are, the white house is of course privately recognized they were caught off guard by just the pure speed of omicron and how that's why the testing still needs to be ramped up. they're lagging behind where they should be they'll privately admit. you've heard from the president talk about the need for vaccines and boosters. that still remains the top weapon in their arsonal. the chief of staff provides comments there, that raised some eyebrows. something more like we heard from donald trump last year and not from president biden earlier this year, but instead, he's basically challenging the state saying hey, you need to do your part, too. we see the scenes at airports. we've seen unruly passengers. worry about schools closing. everyone's tired of masks. everyone's testing positive. we're setting record levels for cases. this is a nation that the virus is everywhere. >> yeah. i mean, and that's the backdrop and again, every problem comes to a white house. every problem comes to a white house chief of staff on top of all that. today, donna edwards, ron klain adding i think what they feel is necessary context to what john is talking about, about there not being a federal solution. it's clear what the president was trying to convey is that the government, federal government, needs partners out in the states. obviously we cover a whole lot of where that isn't the case. mostly in republican-led states that are defiant around the few things we can do to protect kids, to protect citizens. mandates for masks or vaccine requirements. i wonder what you make of those comments about the importance and watching this supreme court before they move or even consider a vaccine requirement on domestic flights. >> well, i mean, i think it's important that what ron klain was saying is that they really do need to tread cautiously here. why go into another mandate when you've got these two cases hanging before the supreme court and at the same time, i think he was saying that in a partnership with the states, there's the ability to amp up all of the tools that we have and i think as families, i know our family plans were disrupted over christmas because of covid and i think that we have become accustomed to the fact we're going to use testing and vaccines and boosters and masks and social distancing and all the tools that we have to be able to engage with each other and to be able to get on with our lives and i think ron klain made really clear that the president is looking to the states for a partnership to ask for what they want the president even said that. he's getting that kind of cooperation even among red state governors to make sure that we can try to get a handle of this. but as the american public, we're going to have to do our part, too, and use every single tool available to us to continue to combat this virus and to continue to live our lives. >> matt, it's clear that the success story is around hospitalizations, around this explosion in cases resulting in a very minimal peak or spike in hospitalizations. as ron pointed out, scant numbers of vaccinated and boosted people in intensive care units in this country. that said, we are seeing here in new york tragically pediatric hospitalizations with covid. i wonder what you make of where the vaccine conversation, whether there's still people to be convinced and persuaded at this point. >> it really seems like there isn't. you know, it seems like any progress we're going to get on vaccines is going to come from an expansion of those who are eligible. the children, younger children. i have an almost 4-year-old at home and i look at those pediatric statistics and worry about them the same way every parent of a young child does. or upholding the supreme court of a mandate that's rolled out and put into widespread use in the early months of next year. because it does seem we have hit a wall. i don't think it's the white house's fault. i think they did an incredibly effective job of rolling out the vaccine, of imposing this mandate when it was clear there was widespread cultural resistance, but the white house can't solve all the problems in this country. it's unfortunate that things that ought to be non-controversial get caught up in the same culture war currents that everything else does. so i don't blame the white house for that. and when you look at their overall response, the one thing i'll add to what ron said is the way i judge the white house is not that they get everything right because you can't expect any white house to get everything right. they're going to make mistakes. i judge him by minimizing the number of mistakes first off then when they do make mistakes, recognizing them and quickly correcting them. not saying there's not a problem when there clearly is one, but reacting to the reality that they've reacted to this omicron surprise an increased the number of tests available at both testing sites and at home. i think that's obviously critically important. both for what it means, but also in the kind of leadership you see from the white house, that they are willing to adjust to an adjusting scenario and not just get dug in and pretend there's not a problem. >> yeah, i mean, jonathan, i wonder if you're surprised by where they landed on the isolation guidance. this is my sort of political life sort of coming back as an echo. damned if you do, damned if you don't. if they had stuck with the ten days, they would be accused of trying to grind the economy to a halt. do you have insight into how they, not just landed at the five days, but how they feel about it? >> they're aware of the backlash. officials i talked to today. it caught them by surprise. it went from ten to five and not say to seven, which is where the united kingdom landed. there have been health officials on this air who really questioned a number of things about this decision. first of all, the reduction to five days. second of all, at the reduction of those days, the isolation period can end without a negative test. if i know someone who's tested negative, i'm not sure if i'd feel comfortable sitting next to them wearing a mask five days later. also, makes no distinction between the vaccinated and unvaccinated. we know the virus is more severe in those that are unvaccinated. yes, of course it's healthcare workers and staffing shortages at hospitals can't be overstated how important that is, but also think of all the airlines that have been grounded in recent days. airlines are having trouble getting crews because of the ten-day isolation period and the white house certainly right now is worried about the nation when it's already battling inflation and the like. so there's a lot of factors involved here, but people i talk to inside the building, those behind ron klain there, they're aware. taken aback by the backlash, but at least for now, not adjusting. they're still having conversations behind the scenes. >> you're all sticking around. when we come back, the january 6 select committee reportedly moving toward a new, much more public phase of their investigation. after 52 subpoenas. speaking with more than 300 witnesses and poring over tens of thousands of documents, they plan to make sure everyone hears what they're learning. plus, according to the ex-president, 5,000 dead people voted in georgia in 2020. another trump lie about his loss debunked by state officials and investigators. this as the criminal case against the ex-president in georgia comes along. the very latest in the state taking democratic institutions very seriously. later in the program, trying to adjust to some kind of back to normal life amidst a pandemic that is inching close to entering its third year. the toll it's taking on all of us. don't go anywhere. us 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choose proven quality sleep from sleep number? because every great play starts the night before. my sleep number 360 smart bed tracks my circadian rhythm, average heart rate, and breathing rate so i know how well i'm sleeping. it's also temperature balancing so i stay cool. and it senses my movement and automatically adjusts to help keep me comfortable all night. sleep number takes care of the science so i can focus on other things. the sleep number 360 smart bed is on sale now. only from sleep number. the january 6 select committee is reportedly entering a new stage in its investigation. one that involves making its findings about the capitol insurrection public. quote, the house committee investigating the attack on the capitol plans to begin holing public hearings in the new year to tell the story of the insurrection from start to finish while crafting an ample interim report on its findings by summer as it shifts into a more public phase. in addition, it is examining whether the justice department will pursue charges including former president trump and whether proposals are needed to prevent valid election results from being overturn. the committee is trying to finish their work. "washington post" reports this, quote, the rough timeline being discussed among senior committee staffers includes public hearings starting this winter stretching into spring. we're back with donna, jonathan, and matt miller. donna, judging by what has been public for this committee, it is what most white houses consider roadblock coverage. the four officers who testified act finding the hit man, not just the person who carries out the crime, dominated headlines so triggered those fox news hosts. we know the ex-president watched from that. then the reading of all those text messages just a teeny, tiny peek at some of the documents they have. again, such a public event that really broke through in a climate that doesn't feel like everything does. so for this committee to say they will enter a public phase stretching from winter to spring could be a real game changer. >> well, i think it could and i mean, americans rely so heavily, we all do, on story telling and i think one of the things that we haven't had is an understanding of what happened you know sort of before, during, and after and doing that in a sequential way. i think it's going to be important, the witnesses who are called before the committee that we get to watch and to assess their credibility and to gain knowledge of the facts. that's going to be important. but doing it in a way that the american people can begin to understand more sequentially what happened. who was involved, who did what when. those are all essentials i think to telling the story and you know, also to understanding what we need to do to make sure that it never happens again. i think that's going to be an essential component of the way in which this committee rolls out its public testimony and the reports to entering a really important moment then it will become a larger question of what to do with all of that information. >> on that sort of one area that they're focused on, how to make sure that doesn't happen again, "the washington post" writes this. committee investigating january 6 attack plans to begin more public phase. the same article, investigators have consulted with experts as they attempt to understand what might have happened if the electoral count wasn't completed that day and we end up in a institutional gray area. according to a senior staffer. with this in mind, the panel will recommend changes. they have been reviewing the law that dictates the procedure for counting the votes. in addition, members of the panel said they plan to review laws that provide the president with emergency powers so those powers can't be abused if a future election is contested. matt, we've had so many conversations around this table about the norms. i think you've sort of been dismissive of democrats that bemoan the loss of norms. feels like the committee understands that norms don't matter. they don't restrain someone like donald trump or the people around him and so they're looking to put in place new laws. what do you think of that? >> i think it's absolutely critical. one of the things we realized in the aftermath of the election, although i will say there were a number of people in the democratic party who were working on this before the election who realized there was exactly this problem. some kind of vagaries in the law. lack of precedent that could lead to chaos on january 6th. but people in the senate and house were committed to trying to overturn the election and it's absolutely critical that the law be clarified and be changed and the only thing i would say that worried me is exactly this piece because if you're going to roll out an interim report sometime in the late spring and summer then a final report around the time of the elections, that doesn't give you a lot of time to actually pass legislation if you assume and it may not happen but if you assume control of congress might change by january of 2024. if there was one thing that worried me reading that article, they ought to speed up the reforms of those laws now. we know what the things that need to be fixed are, and let's front load this next year. let's try to work on those changes while we know we have democratic control of both the house and the senate. >> you know, jonathan, something i think is interesting is we don't know what we don't know in terms of what this committee has and how it will be perceived and i look at mitch mcconnell's changing tone about the committee's work and one that they see. what about the notion of hours and hours and days and days of hearings in donald trump jr.'s voice over texts sent to mark meadows or bill steppian testifying about whether the money fraudulently raised money. what about bernie carrick coming and telling, these are all people, not just aligned with donald trump, this is trump world. these are his people. and not all of them are roger stone or paul manafort willing to thumb the criminal justice system. what about the possibility that when they get to story telling, it's a doozy for the ex-president. >> first of all, that mcconnell remark really raised a lot of eyebrows across washington. mcconnell usually doesn't acknowledge the house exists and made clear he's paying attention there and thinks the work is consequence shl seems to matter and perhaps reflective of the progress being made by the committee and how many threads they have to pull. as you just outlined, you mentioned the who's who of trump world. all of them have vital information the committee would love to get. obviously it's waiting for the supreme court to make a decision about whether or not he'll have access to the records at the national archives. hoped that would be resolved by late winter, early spring. there's this series of phone calls trump made from the white house to the war rooms at the willard hotel. i guess rooms were readily available that night. and the committee is looking to them according to new reporting from the guardian and elsewhere. they know the power of a story as donna said. and as you know, a veteran of campaigns, that's how the best politicians make their case. they tell stories and it seems like this committee has moved into a far more public phase with some of the rhetoric from the committee both liz cheney and bennie thompson from their public statements and they seem to be ready to tell this story, to once again, shock the american people who will be focused on the events of january 6th as the anniversary approaches. >> it's amazing it's been a year. everyone is sticking around. even before the tragic and deadly insurrection of january 6, we all learned and heard donald trump's pressure call to quote, find some votes in a state of georgia. that call and his lies about his loss there are being quietly investigated as well. where that stands, next. investigated as well where that stands, next. everything you've seen me do was made possible by what you don't see. cause when you're not looking, i go to work. ♪♪ strength isn't a given. it's grown. it's earned and tested. ♪♪ we all have the strength to see what's possible. it's up to us to unlock it. tonal. be your strongest. (upbeat music) - [narrator] this is kate. she always wanted her smile to shine. now, she uses a capful of therabreath healthy smile oral rinse to give her the healthy, sparkly smile she always wanted. (crowd cheering) therabreath, it's a better mouthwash. at walmart, target and other fine stores. i'm so glad we're finally on vacation. yeah, and kayak made it so easy - searching hundreds of travel sites to find us a great flight. my ears still won't pop after the flight but i don't even care.... what? kayak. search one and done. three days before the insurrection, donald trump's call to georgia's secretary of state was released publicly. investigations into that call and the president's effort to overturn his defeat in georgia has been humming along largely under the radar. here was trump on that call to georgia's secretary of state. >> so dead people voted and i think the number is in the, close to 5,000 people and they went to obituaries. they went to all sorts of methods to come up with an accurate number at a minimum, it's close to about 5,000 voters. >> minimum of 5,000. quite a round number. dead people voted. so about those 5,000 dead people. atlanta journal constitution writes this, quote, election investigators found just four absentee ballots in the 2020 presidential election from voters who had died. all that returned and one was a vote for donald trump. another day, another lie about trump's imaginary voter fraud debunked, proving once again president biden fairly won georgia and by about 12,000 votes as three state recounts tallies have found. donna, jonathan and matt miller are back. we covered that story here because the lies and the anatomy of those lies and the fact people still believe those lies sits at an intersection of domestic violence extremism threat in this country. it's a security story. but i'm guessing that story and like the rundown on the network where people are beholden to those lies and i wonder if this point, what there's left to do about that, donna. >> i don't know. two-thirds of republicans believe that the election was stolen and there's no amount of convincing them otherwise and i think while it's important for us to continue to tell the story and to continue to debunk the lie, i'm not really sure who we're talking to anymore. you know, you look at georgia, you know, trump's claim of 5,000 dead people casting ballots when it turns out there were four ballots turned out for people turned in for people who died. i mean, there's like, you know, this massive gap between the truth and the lie. and there seems nothing though that can convince at least you know, a mainstay of those voters otherwise. >> you know, matt, i wonder what you make of the really kind of quiet investigation in that state looking at all of the president's conduct in georgia. >> you know, i think it's being conducted exactly the way it's supposed to be. these investigations aren't supposed to be loud and noisy. i do think the bar is going to be very high for prosecution. i think it's going to be tough to show the then president trump had criminal intent when he made that call to the secretary of state and i say that because it's not just, you would have to show that he knew he, that he knew he did not win the election and was trying to overturn that. and look, i think that's very much the case. i think he obviously knew he lost and was breaking the law, but he would be able to present a defense where he'd bring in you know, sydney powell, who came to him and told him, oh, all of these fraudulent votes were cast. rudy giuliani told him the same thing. all of these quacks around him making these drummed up claims. it's the same thing i said privately is what i said public will. so i think the eventual bar is going to be high, but again, to something you said earlier about the january 6th, committee, we don't know what we don't know. we know this one phone call that was released. we don't know what other evidence the prosecutors have found. they're doing their job quietly. >> i'm thinking about her comment, i don't know who we're talking to anymore. the lie is right now the jet fuel behind 430 voter suppression and nullification laws winding their way through 48 states. i guess who we're talking to are businesses in those states, fair minded voters and politicians in those states and democratic senators in washington who have the power to pass legislation. the truth is, the lie was also told by mark meadows. let me show you what he had to say about dead people voting in georgia. >> he said there was only two dead people that would vote. i can promise you there are more than that. and that may be what your investigation shows, but i can promise you there are more than that. but at the same time, i think it's important that we go ahead and move expeditiously to try to do this and resolve it as quickly as we possibly can. >> so there were more than two. there were four. one was a trump vote. but the ease with which the white house chief of staff, and we just heard from ron klain, he's on the front lines trying to protect the country from covid and mark meadows fraudulently trying to overturn the vote loss in the state of georgia. >> yeah, mark meadows fact check. >> sorry. jonathan. >> yeah, certainly saying mark meadows is right in this case, that four is more than two in terms of dead people who voted, but not the 5,000 or so that the then president trump claimed. in terms of the audience, you make a good point here. it's a small one. we know that the idea of whether or not joe biden was legitimately elected is almost a litmus test in the republican party now. if you say yes, you're not a true republican. in at least most states it seems that way. there are of course some republicans who still defy that who seem to abide by the rule of law, but it's a shrinking group. business groups is another that would be an audience. we saw what happened in georgia when business groups really blocked the move to restrict voting access there and i guess though that perhaps the thin slice of independents, those voters who go in every four years predisposed to be undecided. those who broke significantly for joe biden in 2020 who to some degree, went for donald trump in 2016. they'll make the difference most likely in the election in 2024. they'll play a big role in 2022 as well. though midterms are about bis turnouts than the undecides. that's why so many democrats and those few republicans who believe in this say it's worth telling the story over and over. both in interviews and tv shows like this and of course through the work of the january 6 committee. >> donna, coming back to you for the last word. >> well, i think even for republicans who know the difference and know that joe biden won the election, especially in congress, so many of them are driven by whether or not they're going to get a primary challenge and for them, that primary race is the race and it is, i mean it would be sacriledge for them to say joe biden was not dually elected. i think for those republicans, they're going to just dig in because they're concerned about challenges coming from the right. so there's no changing that base, but there's also no changing i think those republican elected leaders who are afraid of losing office. >> we're going to dig around a little bit, too, and try to see if we can figure out where 5,000 dead people came from even in the imagination of the nutty ex-president. switching gears a little bit. capitol police officer harry dunn has become one of the very public faces of january 6th and he wants to make sure there will be more hearings into that day for all to witness. his powerful words on why are next. ul words on why are next there is no place like home y'all! and these people know that there is no place like wayfair. i never thought i'd buy a pink velvet sofa, but when i saw it, i was like 'ah'. and then i sat on it, and i was like 'ooh'. ooh! stylish and napable. okay now. i can relate to this one. i'm a working mom with three boys. 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got anywhere from 10 to 50 projects going at any given time. i absolutely have to be sharp. let me tell ya, i was struggling with my memory. it was going downhill. my friend recommended that i try prevagen and over time, it made a very significant difference in my memory and in my cognitive ability. i started to feel a much better sense of well-being. prevagen. healthier brain. better life. as the january 6th select committee looks to hold public hearings, one of the officers who kept congress and everybody in it safe that day says he doesn't have a lot of faith that anyone responsible for the attack will be punished. listen. >> i'm able to see members of the january 6 committee daily as i work at the capitol. i'm able to tell them while i appreciate their hard work for this and seeking the truth, there's been nothing that's happened, that's been done, that's been assured that makes me feel comfortable that this will never happen again. there's nothing that's been done or said that gives me hope or faith or anything but maybe that's just the kind of person i am. i do believe that they're doing their due diligence, not just because it's their job, because they're personally invested in this also. they were close to being victims that day. if they investigate this and it turns out that, say, hey, you know, the president said some incendiary things or, hey, these people did this but everybody was within their rights to do this, after they investigate it and the truth is all out, and there's no punishment of it or something, i would be extremely disappointed because i disagree with that. but i cannot live with it not being investigated at all. >> we're back with donna, jonathan, and matt. i mean, it's such a powerful interview. everyone should listen to it. it's today's daily, "the new york times." these -- we've been talking about storytellers all hour. these storytellers are exactly what the old republican party thought it existed to lift up and protect, and the fact that they are the victims now of this version of republicanism, i hope comes through loud and clear. that was for you, matt miller. >> oh. i'm sorry. look, when i have heard his words, the first thing i thought was, how hard it must be for him to come to work every day and look in the eye of the people who were responsible for holding donald trump accountable, had the opportunity to do it and voted to acquit him in his second impeachment trial. that was the moment. that was the real moment. it was right after the events of january 6th. everyone in the senate knew exactly what he had done. everyone knew he was responsible. and you know, the vast majority of republicans in the senate, except for a few, lisa murkowski and a few others, decided to look the other way and do nothing about it so for this officer who put his life on the line to protect them, to come to work and see them unwilling to take that step in return must be so disheartening for him. he can't say that. he can't be that blunt but i'm sure it must be very, very difficult. >> what's interesting, jonathan lemire, is the sort of -- i don't even know what the right word is, but the capacity to slice and dice support for law enforcement to not include capitol police officers who protect our lives. it's appalling and i wonder if you think that there's any -- if the committee is sort of pressing on that as an open door, as matt said, people see these folks every single day when they walk in and out. it's hard to imagine any of the republicans, people like kevin mccarthy, even able to make eye contact. >> yeah, these capitol police officers were heroes. that can't be said enough. i know it's a lot of discussion when "time" named its person of the year, that it should have been them for what they did to protect lawmakers, to protect our democracy last january 6th. that can't be overstated, and it shouldn't be lost on anyone that a republican party, and again, not everyone, but a large number of republicans who often will take the phrase "blue lives matter," seem to think, well, maybe not these blue lives, these capitol police officers who were out there that day or metropolitan police officers who helped out who also were wounded and their lives in jeopardy, badly injured, and it's certainly one of the avenues that, yes, that i think we will hear from the committee. this is -- this officer here speaks so movingly about what happened that day. he's far from alone. there are a number who could certainly testify before the committee and certainly continue to give interviews like these where once again, americans will be forced to hear just really what happened that day, and what shame should be brought upon so many of the republicans who want to look the other way. >> i cannot live with it not being investigated at all, donna. that's what harry dunn says in "the daily" today. it not being investigated at all is exactly what every republican in the house of representatives and the united states senate, save for the two that are on the committee, and a few that voted to form that bipartisan commission stands for. the republican party stands for no investigation into a deadly insurrection at the u.s. capitol. it's -- i wish i could stop being galled and shocked by that, but that's where we are. >> yeah, i mean, my heart is just breaking every time i've heard from the capitol police officers and particularly officer dunn because i think that he represents both the courage and professionalism of the police officers on january 6th, but the fact that they show up to work every single day to stand in the gap for these, you know, republican senators and house of representatives members who refuse to even want it investigated at all. and so, you know, i'm glad that this committee has formed. it doesn't matter that the republican party largely rejected it, because i think it's going to do its work and give officer dunn and the other police officers and members of congress the validation that they need for what happened on january 6th and for all of us in the american public who witnessed that, because it was a crime against individual members of congress. it was a crime against the institution, but it was also a crime against the american people, and it's important to be able to see that. >> donna edwards, jonathan lemire, matt miller, thank you so much for spending this hour with us. we're grateful, and it's great to see all of you. the next hour of "deadline white house" starts after a quick break. deadline white house" starts after a quick break. i'm so glad we're finally on vacation. yeah, and kayak made it so easy - searching hundreds of travel sites to find us a great flight. my ears still won't pop after the flight but i don't even care.... what? kayak. search one and done. oh yeah, we gotta take off. you downloaded the td ameritrade mobile app? yeah, actually i'm taking one last look at my dashboard before we board... and you have thinkorswim mobile- -so i can finish analyzing the risk on this position. you two are all set. choose the app that fits your investing style. ♪♪ i want to thank all of the white house team for being such great support to the governors and i want to thank mr. president, your address to the nation last week. thank you for your comments designed to depoliticize our covid response. i think that was helpful. >> hi again, everyone, it's 5:00 in new york. a moment notable only because of the paucity of any public displays of bipartisanship in this country's fight against covid. that was republican governor of arkansas asa hutchinson there recognizing president biden's efforts to protect americans from a virus that has now claimed well over 800,000 lives. hutchinson is a unicorn in the gop when it comes to publicly embracing this administration's efforts to fight covid, which is particularly troubling and potentially dangerous as the highly transmissible omicron variant continues its surge at a staggering pace. today, the seven-day average of daily cases reached a record high of over 253,000 cases, beating the previous high of cases from back in january. as we approach the beginning of a third year in this pandemic, the cdc is out with new recommendations, which we told you about on this program yesterday, reducing the time those infected need to stay in isolation. those new guidelines say people who test positive for covid but have no symptoms isolate for five days, that's down from the previous recommendation of ten and then they should continue to wear a mask for an additional five. dr. anthony fauci said this is a smart decision. here he is on this network last night. >> the sheer volume and number of cases with omicron, which is very much more transmissible than prior variants, we don't want to get into a situation where so many people are out from their jobs, many of which are essential jobs to keep society running smoothly. so, the decision on the part of the cdc is a really prudent and good decision, and it's based on science, because the chances of virus being shed in the first five days is much greater than in the second five days following infection. >> dr. fauci acknowledging there that the cdc's update takes into account science, of course, while simultaneously trying to lessen the major disruptions in life and work caused by this virus. because as we all well know, covid has, in some form or another, impacted nearly everyone's lives in a major way over the last two years. a huge part of that impact, the heavy emotional toll of living through a pandemic. "the washington post" out with an examination of the collective trauma we have all experienced from covid-19. they write this. quote, nearly two years into a pandemic, coexistent with several national crises, many americans are profoundly tense. they're snapping at each other more frequently, suffering from physical symptoms of stress, and seeking methods of self-care. in the most extreme cases, they're acting out their anger in public, bringing their internal struggles to bear on interactions with strangers. mental health experts say some of those behaviors appear to be the result of living through a long-lasting public emergency with no clear end point, experts said. as the omicron variant rages across the country, it is, again, unclear when the pandemic restrictions will end. for some people, this kind of catastrophe strains their coping resources and causes them to act in ways they normally would not. the constant struggle to adjust to life in a nearly two-yearlong battle against the pandemic is where we start this hour. dr. shah is here, matthew dowd, political strategist and msnbc contributor, katty kay, author of "the confidence code." doctor, i want to start with you, and i have said this to you every time you've been on. the twitter feed is the most useful source of information i find and i noted yesterday that it was your recommendation of a five-day quarantine that ended up in the final recommendation, and i want to get to all that in a beat, but i just want your thoughts on that "washington post" examination of the toll on everyone's mental health that the pandemic is taking. >> yeah, it's a great article, and it's a profound issue at this moment. this is the second holiday season. holiday season particularly brings these issues out when we can't spend time with our family and friends in the same way we used to before the pandemic and i think that's why people are feeling it particularly acutely right now. this is also going to factor into our decision making about what's reasonable to expect and want people to do as we go through the third year of this pandemic. the idea that we could ask people to behave in exactly the way we did in march of 2020 is also unreasonable. people just don't have it in them. and the good news is we don't have to. we do have new tools, but the bottom line is we've got to take this collective trauma into account. >> what, dr. jha, should we be doing? i mean, it feels like we have never had a vocabulary or fluency for dealing with mental health in this country. there's a stigma, a lack of resources, a lack of ability to help a loved one if they don't want to help themselves. what should we be doing? what does that effort look like if we all agree it's a national problem? >> yeah, so, it is a national problem, and i think the first thing we can do is start normalizing it, talking about it more openly. i think what you're doing on this show is really helpful. we have got to bring it out of the shadows. that's number one. number two is we have got to figure out how to get more people access to mental health services. it's not just psychiatrists and psychologists and social workers. there's a whole host of different mental health experts and professionals that have -- that we've got to be able to tap into. and i think third, but certainly not least here, is we've got to have a national conversation about the tradeoffs we're willing to make as a country. how much we can continue with isolation, what the cost of that is, and how we mitigate the worst effects of the pandemic while allowing more and more people to get back to their lives that are so important, it's not just about being alive but also about doing the things that matter to us. >> and that seems to have been at least factored into the recommendation, which i want to get to, but i do want to bring matt dowd and katty kay into this "washington post" reporting about the state of america right now. i think under stress is perhaps putting it lightly. if you've traveled, you've seen how that manifests on an airplane. if you're in schools, you see sometimes parents acting in a way that you would hope they wouldn't act. teachers are some of the people who have been on the front lines through the whole pandemic and if you work in a service industry, this whole idea of working from home was never even an option so people lost the thread of the luxury that it is to even be able to go at home. everyone feels like that's a burden without being aware that's a privilege not afforded to everyone. where do we go in this part of dealing with the pandemic and ourselves? >> well, i'm really glad and grateful we're actually having this conversation about trauma, actually. and the experience it has had on people in america. i mean, we know the trauma people that come back from war. we know the trauma of people that are brought up in really awful upbringings and how they retain that and how they react to things, so at least beginning the conversation about what it means, and understanding that people that go through trauma have triggers that may seem irrational, but are directly tied to that hurt and pain and trauma they have in that. i mean, i actually think this is a moment, and i think part of the problem we have is that when we talk about the collective trauma, it's not just -- and we're talking about covid in this instance, but it's a collective trauma that the country's experienced really over the last five years related to covid but also in many people's minds, the loss of the american story and the american democracy as we understood it. that's also a traumatic experience that we all, especially we that are in politics, have experienced over the course of this but even just average voters in this. but i think beginning the conversation to understand the basis level of this, i think part of the problem, i think, from this, as we've reached this almost two-year point of it, is i think the messaging has actually contributed to it to a degree, because what people have been told is, over and over, if you just do x, we'll get back to normal. and then they're told, if you just do y, we'll get back to normal. and i think what we need to do, all of us, especially leaders, need to start saying, we're going to be in a new normal, and those days that we thought existed before as often happens in the history of the world are gone. as we knew them. and take people through that, through their pain, through the trauma, through the loss they may suffer in that, but i think we need to start telling people that we're going to be established in a world that's interconnected, globally and all the ways we're interconnected and covid has raised this up to such a poignant degree, how interconnected we all are. the economy has raised it up, how interconnected we all are. climate change has raised up but if we just look at covid and our reaction to it so far has been division as opposed to the universe telling us, hey, you guys are all interconnected and you need to work together. and so, i think if we can take this and the experience that people all had, whether they were trump supporters or a person that doesn't believe in it, everybody has experienced this trauma in this, but i think part of what we need to do as leaders is to reset, not to go back, but to reset to a new normal because we may have pandemics and we may have viruses and we may have those things extending out for years and years and years, and the constant telling people, if you do x, we'll get back to normal, i think that has contributed to this problem over people healing in this time. >> i mean, dr. jha, i talk about your twitter feed all the time because it does balance these things. this is bad. omicron is scary. the good news is, the vaccines seem to prevent severe death and illness. you certainly have this seemingly intuitive ability to deliver the news, give us some hope, give us the facts. what is your reaction to what matt dowd is saying about the messaging, maybe resetting us to expect never maybe to return to normal but to accept a new reality? >> yeah, so, first of all, i think matt is completely right. we keep doing this. we did this last year when our previous president kept saying, you know, it's going to be gone by april, gone -- just rounding the corner. it's actually really harmful to give that kind of messaging to people, because if you tell somebody, just hunker down for a month, you can hunker down for a month but if you're hunkering for two years, that's a very different thing and that causes hopelessness, which a lot of people feel. pandemics have always existed as far as human society is concerned, and pandemics change societies. how they change societies is up to us. so, we're not going back to 2019, but we can build a much better future where we manage pandemics more effectively, where we manage climate change, where we can do the things that really matter to us. that part is up to us. we're not hopeless in this. but the messaging has to be that we've got to build a much stronger future, not try to pine for a past that's not coming back. >> katty, i want to bring you in on this. the u.s. surgeon general has issued a warning about the trauma that our kids are experiencing. 55% increase in adolescent girls going to the hospital as a risk to themselves, 5% increase in adolescent boys. anecdotally, i know child therapists who can't find psychiatrists to treat children in need, that kind of help, and i wonder what you make of this sort of circling around our -- sort of our own woes and worries and maybe ignoring those of our kids. >> yeah, i had a really interesting conversation with a senior psychiatrist at the colorado children's hospital back in the summer when they declared a state of emergency because they had so many kids coming into the hospital who had attempted suicide in their emergency rooms, and he said that when we went into the pandemic first of all, there was a kind of, you know, fight or flight moment and everybody was hunkered down, and for a few months, there was a feeling of remarkable resilience amongst people, including amongst children, and everybody was in the kind of same boat, and then it was as we came out of the pandemic and we moved into this gray world that matt and dr. jha are talking about, where things are a bit of a yo-yo, right? they seem better and then they seem worse, you're having to reintegrate but not reintegrate fully, your parents tell you you can go to school but then suddenly you can't see your friends over the christmas holidays because omicron is here. and it was that period of kind of reintegration that has been particularly stressful. he thought on our kids. i saw it with my children over this holiday period. we'd all been super excited about getting together. my daughter had come back from boarding school, longing to see all her friends. she gets off the plane, there's omicron, half her friends are in quarantine, her brother is in quarantine at home, so we can't go out either. it's really stressful. i went to cvs to try to pick up covid tests early in the morning and for almost no reason and almost uncharacteristically, i burst into tears when they told me they didn't have any. that's the kind of stress. it was like the holidays and omicron and it's a lot for people, and we have to take a long view. we have to try to draw on all of our resilience. i wish we could be more united. pew has come out with a poll showing we're far more divided during this than perhaps would be healthy for all of us. >> so, with this as the backdrop, and now i want to talk about this five-day recommendation, because i feel like, again, the covid news is just processed with this -- what does it mean for me? give me the whole context, dr. jha, for shortening an isolation period from ten days to five. >> yeah, absolutely. so, ten-day isolation, kind of initially created because we knew that people were most contagious in the first couple days before they developed symptoms and the couple days after. what we know is that by day five, day six, most people are far less contagious and out to day ten, basically, everyone's done being contagious so that's why we had that isolation period. with vaccines, we shortened that contagiousness period so vaccinated people probably are fine after five days and that's why i and others have been saying quite publicly that we should be shortening that isolation period, not so that people can go back to work but people can get back to their families. being isolated, i've known a number of parents who are isolated from their kids, kids -- i have a friend whose 8-year-old has been in a basement for nine days because she tested positive. this is traumatic stuff. if we don't have to do it, it's cruel to ask people to isolate when they don't need to, so i really advocated for shortening that as much as possible so that we can get people back to their lives for all the issues that we've been talking about. i would prefer a negative test at the end of five days. i think that would add a lot more safety. the cdc has gone in a different direction with asking for mask wearing but we've got to find ways to do these kinds of things. >> i mean, and i think maybe the reality is we don't have tests for everybody. and masks seem at this hour to be more readily available. i want to ask you where you think we're going. i mean, i think the number 500,000 new cases yesterday is so shocking and jarring, but maybe if you're an epidemiologist and you've studied omicron it's not shocking at all. how should we feel about these jaw-dropping numbers? should we stop talking about them? >> well, we have to pay a little bit of attention to them, but we have to take a look at the bigger picture. we now have more infections in america than at any point in the pandemic. i think the worst days of last december, we have more infections now. but infections mean something different because we also have more than 60% of our population fully vaccinated, most of our high-risk people fully vaccinated, a lot of people boosted. so in that population, infections don't turn into hospitalizations and deaths, so yes, we need to keep tracking infection numbers and do whatever we can to keep infections low but we have to understand that in a different moment, we're going have people get infected and that's not the biggest tragedy. the biggest issue is we got to make sure people don't die, hospitals don't get overwhelmed. we can do those things and that's what we should be paying attention to. >> how do we protect our hospitals and our healthcare workers from what seems like a potential massive surge from omicron wave? >> yes, so if you think about who's going to end up in the hospital, it's two groups of people. super high-risk people who have not gotten a booster, so the 80-year-old nursing home resident. and then of course unvaccinated people. and if anybody has any ideas for how to get more unvaccinated people vaccinated, i would love to hear them because obviously i think that's going to be one of the most critical things. that is going to be a major part and then protecting the healthcare workers themselves. they're exhausted after two years. and so, making sure that they're getting the support they need so they can continue working is also essential. >> so, you know what you're looking at and what you're looking for and i wonder what scares you when you look at the omicron wave and perhaps what's next. >> yeah, i think what makes me most -- is that we have a lot of vulnerable people still in america, a lot of unvaccinated older people, maybe 15% of older people are still not vaccinated, and a lot of people are not boosted. and what i really worry about is you're going to have hospitals that really can no longer function effectively, can't take care of a heart attack patient, can't take care of a kid with appendicitis because they are so overwhelmed. that will happen in many places. i worry about that immensely, and that's the major reason we've got to keep this under control and stop it from spreading wildly, because we need a functioning health system. >> dr. jha, thank you so much for starting us off this hour and being part of the mental health conversation as well. i'm really grateful. matt dowd and katty kay are sticking around. when we come back, the disgraced ex-president's oldest son has become a poster boy of sorts for the distortion of decency in politics, going as far as suggesting that the teachings of jesus of turning the other cheek have gotten republicans nowhere fast. "the atlantic's" pete wehner writes about that. plus we'll try to untangle a bizarre suggestion from rand paul, who says democrats stole the election by persuading people to vote for them. that really happened. ahead of security talks between the u.s. and russia, an alarming new step today showing moscow's desire to crush all dissent. "deadline white house" continues after a quick break. "deadline ws after a quick break. it's your home. and there's no place like wayfair to make your reach-in closet, feel like a walk-in closet now that's more your style. make the morning chaos, organized chaos. and make sure everything's in it's place. so nothing is out of place. however you make it, make your home a place like no other. psoriatic arthritis, made my joints stiff,... ...swollen, painful. emerge tremfyant®. tremfya® is approved to help reduce joint symptoms in adults with active psoriatic arthritis. some patients even felt less fatigued. serious allergic reactions may occur. tremfya® may increase your risk of infections and lower your ability to fight them. tell your doctor if you have an infection or symptoms or if you had a vaccine or plan to. emerge tremfyant® with tremfya®... ask you doctor about tremfya® today. when you have xfinity, you have entertainment built in. which is kind of nice. ah, what is happening. binge-watching is in the bag, when you find all your apps, all in one place. find live sports faster just by using your voice... sports on now. touchdown irish! [cheering] that was awesome. and, the hits won't quit, with peacock premium included at no additional cost. all that entertainment built in. xfinity. a way better way to watch. how not to be a hero: because that's the last thing they need you to be. you don't have to save the day. you just have to navigate the world so that a foster child isn't doing it solo. you just have to stand up for a kid who isn't fluent in bureaucracy, or maybe not in their own emotions. so show up, however you can, for the foster kids who need it most— at helpfosterchildren.com i'm wondering what one or two of your most favorite bible verses are. >> well, i wouldn't want to get into it because to me that's very personal and when i talk about the bible, it's very personal, so i don't want to get into it. >> there's no verse that mans a lot to you that you think about or cite? >> the bible means a lot to me but i don't want to get into specifics. >> old testament guy or new testament guy? >> probably equal. i think it's just an incredible -- the whole bible is incredible. very much so. they always hold up "the art of the deal," i say my second favorite back of all time. but i just think the bible is just something very special. >> there are no words. the bible clearly is so special to donald trump that in that moment, he couldn't think of a single passage that he liked and it was second only to the art of the deal. in fact, some time later, shortly before the 2016 election, he got another crack at that question and with eight months to think about it, he told a radio station his favorite verse in the bible was the old testament's eye for an eye, something expressly refuted in the new testament. now, whether you're a religious person or not isn't the point. you can see how core messages of forgiveness and mercy and the whole story are inherently antithetical to him and the entire maga movement. those are beta traits, after all. stuff for wussies, not suited for the hypermasculine real men. after all, they show their faith by gassing protesters on lafayette square in order to, for the sole purpose of being able to hoist a bible above trump's head as a photo prop, upside down, i believe, in front of st. john's church. this week, more of the sad, sad same. listen to what donald trump jr. told the crowd at the turning point usa shin dig. >> we have been playing t-ball for half a century while they're playing hardball and cheating. right? we have turned the other cheek, and i understand. i understand sort of the biblical reference. i understand the mentality. but it's gotten us nothing. okay? it's gotten us nothing. while we've ceded ground in every major institution in our country. >> remember those are the guys that tried to steal an election. it's a moment in time, though, so eloquently and perfectly summarized by my friend and former colleague, pete wehner. from his piece in the "atlantic," throughout that speech, donald trump jr. painted a scenario in which trump supporters, americans living in red america, are under relentless attack from a wicked and brutal enemy. he portrayed it as an existential battle between good and evil. one side must prevail. the other must be crushed. this, in turn, justifies any necessary means to win, and the former president's son has a message for the tens of millions of evangelicals who form the energized base of the gop. the scriptures are essentially a manual for suckers. the teachings of jesus have, quote, gotten us nothing. it's worse than that, really. the ethic of jesus has gotten in the way of successfully prosecuting the culture wars against the left. if the ethic of jesus encourages sensibilities that might cause people in politics to act a little less brutally, a little bit more civilly, with a touch more grace, then it needs to go. decency is for suckers. joining our conversation is the author of that brilliant piece, pete wehner, contributing writer for "the atlantic." matt dowd and katty kay are still here as well. pete, i read it twice. it's brilliant. it's shocking, and it's important because what happens on the right matters, and i say this every day. it's at the intersection of an extremist threat and understanding their tactics and understanding the messaging to their base is really important, and your points about brutality and the absence of seeing the other side as humans deserving of grace is part of how we are where we are, no? >> yeah, i agree. it's good to be with you, nicole. thanks for having me on. i very much agree. the way to understand this, in terms of the trumpian movement, the maga movement, is a certain predicates have to be laid in order for them to execute what they want to execute, and some of those predicates are pretty nasty stuff, and i thought that the don junior speech was an indication of that, and i must say, it's not just that clip, but i went ahead and listened to the whole speech. it was about 40 minutes. it's not for the faint of heart to listen to it. it was pretty striking, though. it was just a cauldron of grievances and resentments. he led the crowd in a chant, "let's go brandon." it was filled with anger, aggression, and it really -- the important thing to understand, it seems to me, is not what it says about don junior or his family. we know about them. it is that that kind of message electrifies the base and it's a powerful base, and they know what they want to do. they've signalled it in terms of overthrowing elections t past one and future ones, and we just have to be alert to that. there's a tendency, i think, to want to look away from it, to put the trump family in the rear view mirror. i get that. i have some of the same impulses, but i don't think it's the responsible thing to do. these guys are playing for keeps. >> pete, the white evangelical base, and correct me if i'm wrong, but used to be a force that pulled republicans toward more awareness on climate change, toward getting involved with poverty, toward ending malaria, toward more aggressive action globally. they now, i think, at a rate of 85% support donald trump. >> it's not only that they support donald trump in terms of voting for him. it is that many of them have been his sword and his shield. they've been, in a sense, the tip of the spear for some of his worst things. why has that happened? it's a complicated story. i think the simplified version, the accurate version is that a lot of people who describe themselves as evangelicals have subordinated faith to politics and to partisan passions and a kind of sociology or a cultural attitude, and they've sort of proof texted the scriptures and decided that they want to use the bible to defend things that i think ultimately are indefensible. i think a lot of them have felt a sense of grievances and resentment over decades of being frowned upon and mocked and ridiculed by the elite and the establishment. there's some merit to that. i think a lot of it is overblown. but the combination of -- i would say that they're like eddies came together and now form a roaring river. i think donald trump took advantage of these movements that were happening, but once he became the nominee and especially president, he amplified and intensified all the worst tendencies and now it's pretty much out in the open. people don't make a secret anymore about what they believe, what they stand for, what they stand against. >> you listen to donald trump's speech so we don't have to play it here, for that i am grateful. you make this point that he's usually someone to ignore but not this time because of his standing in the party and i wonder if you take that point of his standing in the party with the revelations brought to us by liz cheney on the january 6th committee of his panicked, hysterical texts about what he was seeing on january 6th. who is donald trump jr.? >> well, i think he is primarily a product of his father. he is a chip off the old block. i think he had a complicated childhood without knowing him but what's, i think, pretty obvious, and it complicated his life, and it complicated, i think, his psychological approach to all things. he's obviously, i think, even from nonpsychologists can see how he's trying to win the affection and esteem of his father. but look, in terms of the public life and why he's relevant, i mean, he has been the emissary of donald trump to the maga world, to the right. he's been involved in corrupt actions. he was, of course, the one who met with trump tower in 2016 to try and get dirt from the russians on hillary clinton, and he's now stoking sort of the worst instincts of the right, and they're pretty bad as it is, and he's wildly popular among the base. and as i wrote in the piece, when donald trump and marjorie taylor greene and lauren boebert are far more popular in a party than liz cheney, then that party has lost its moral bearings, and i think donald trump jr. is an embodiment and an example of that. >> matt dowd, i want to bring you in on this question of this full frontal embrace of incivility, of discarding anything that pulls us toward humanity, even if it means discarding the bible. it's bizarre to even say that out loud. but pete writes about don junior leading a chant of, "let's go, brandon", which means, "f" joe biden. it's not even a code. that is its direct translation in maga world. also something communicated to the president in-person on christmas eve by a supporter of the ex-president who went on steve bannon's podcast yesterday and made perfectly clear that he believes the real president right now today as we sit here is donald trump. where are we heading? if this is what's happening, that the second most powerful sort of figure in trump world, the president's son, is leading "f" joe biden chants, telling everyone, be done with the bible, it's useless, it's for wimps and to the president's face, he's hearing, basically, f.u. >> well, first, i just wanted to say, much respect for pete and he's been a great moral voice over the last 20 years, and he and i have had our disagreements at times but him being a person of faith and me being a person of faith, we end up falling into the same value systems, so bravo to pete for all he's done. i think this piece is an important piece, because it touches on something all of us have been talking about. i actually think we're in a spiritual soul crisis in this country, and this is the most direct evidence of it. the idea that we have an evangelical, who are supposedly, quote, unquote, the most christian people in the country, who practice the most unchristian ways, who are, as the piece points out and we've talked about before, who don't believe in common decency, don't believe in the common good, and the idea now that the ends justify the means, in my view, is the exact opposite of what jesus preached in the gospels. he actually preached, the means justify the ends, which is, forget about the kingdom of god and forget about heaven, just love one another, which every single spiritual faith in the history of the world has taught, love one another, whether it's a muslim, a buddhist, a jewish person, whoever you are, they've all taught and all of us that were brought up in faith were taught the same fundamental thing. they've discarded that. they don't believe in that. but i think it's a huge problem. i think of a microcosm is the graham family. i think about this. that's where billy graham was in the history of our country and our politics, and billy graham had flaws but he was a great spiritual voice in our country. and he was also -- he was -- had pronounced moments of self-reflection when he thought he went the wrong way or got too involved in politics or it darkened his spiritual message. he actually was fundamentally broken by what he discovered about richard nixon. he was a fan of richard nixon and in the aftermath, in the tapes, he discovered richard nixon was not the person and he was fundamentally broken by is that and pulled back from politics. and you think about billy graham's son, franklin graham, who's completely consumed by the trump movement. i thought that the signature point of this -- of this is opening everybody's eyes to where evangelicals or this group is in no belief, really, in the message of the gospels, was when they basically took on donald trump as their savior, probably the most morally reprehensible person to ever run for president of the united states, with his entire history of what he has done to people, what he has done to women, how he's conducted his life, and they took him on as he was the person that was going to save the country or save, in their mind, christianity. but i think fundamentally, yes, we have a political problem in the country, but i think deeper, we have a soul problem. we have a fundamental soul problem when we have an entire segment of our society who no longer believes in the fundamental message of jesus christ, about loving one another and respecting one another and treating everybody as you want to be treated. they don't believe that anymore. and that's a soul spiritual crisis for our country, and pete's put his finger right on it. >> well, katty, it's more than a rejection. it's a do away with it, get this away from here. it will hurt you. it will wussify you, make you weaker, and i heard a direct echo in pete's piece to an earlier "atlantic" piece about donald trump calling those who served our country in the military suckers. so, if you served in the military, if you're a prisoner of war, you're a bad soldier, bad prisoner of war, means you got caught. he had horrible things to say about anyone who had been injured or lost their life serving this country. so if you serve your country, you're a sucker. if you read and adhere to the teachings of the bible, you're a sucker. it's not clear, trump or his kids have ever read it, but this sort of toxic masculinity that leaves on the other side of its tribe the military, military service, and the bible is just an unbelievable sort of twist in terms of the identity of this version of the maga movement. >> it's kind of ironic because people have often criticized democrats for being too soft in politics and not playing hardball enough and here's donald trump jr. saying that it's the republicans who don't play hardball enough and has certainly not been their political reputation over the last couple decades. that stoking of anger is so deliberate, and you know this, nicole, you served in politics yourself, that anger is a very powerful force in politics. we heard -- i went to the trump rallies often during the campaign in 2016 and 2020, and there's a deliberate stoking of anger, it's anger and fear are powerful motivators. there's a great bob kagan piece in the "washington post" back in september which described how democrats often make a mistake, thinking that people vote along the lines of policy and economics, whereas actually, what is much more powerful is emotion, particularly the emotion of anger and fear. and that's what you hear at these rallies. and this idea of, you're a loser if somehow you reach out to other people or you listen to other people, that's also classic trump, right? the one thing that donald trump fears the most is being a loser, which may be why, if he doesn't run in 2024, that would probably be it, because he can not face the thought of losing for a second time but the stoking of anger is a powerful motivator and it's ripping -- you quoted earlier that piece from enid, oklahoma, about mask wearing and it's -- you feel it out there in all of the reporting we're getting from around the country, this sense of anger and division and incivility, and like you, i don't know where we go from here. >> well, pete wehner, it's your reporting and storytelling that will help us know what's coming. i really am grateful to you for coming on to talk about the piece. matt dowd and katty kay, thank you so much for spending time with us today. when we come back, rand paul once again facing ridicule for his, shall we say, misguided idea of what it means to steal an election. seems he's not so into democracy these days. we'll explain next. ot so into dy these days we'll explain next are you taking a statin drug to reduce cholesterol? it can also deplete your coq10 levels. i recommend considering qunol coq10 along with your statin medication. the brand i trust is qunol. finally. our honeymoon. it took awhile, but at least we got a great deal on our hotel with kayak. i was afraid we wouldn't go.. with our divorce and.... great divorce guys. yeah... search 100s of travel sites at once. kayak. search one and done. - love you. have a good day, behave yourself. - like she goes to work at three in the afternoon, and sometimes gets off at midnight. she works a lot. a whole lot. - we don't get to eat in the early morning. we just wait till we get to the school. so yeah. - [narrator] right now, here 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the president's new family addition. just came in. if you have a dog, you know that the president is still getting used to this new pup and there he is running in the sand. commander is his name. moving on to our next big story, as someone big and infamous used to say, he's a real beauty. but today, we're talking about rand paul and his unintelligible effort to articulate what the definition of stealing is. the kentucky senator this week tweeted a piece from the american conservative that explained how democrats strategically and legally won wisconsin by increasing voter participation and messaging to their voters and persuading them to vote for democrats. the senator, though, called it this. quote, how to steal an election, with this quote from the piece. quote, seeding an area heavy with potential democratic votes with as many absentee ballots as possible, targeting and convincing potential voters to complete them in a legally valid way and then harvesting and counting the results. i'm old enough to remember when republicans did that. rand paul, who, as an elected official, is well within his rights to campaign the very same way if he wanted to, is so far down the autocrats election conspiracy theory rabbit hole that he seemingly forgot or has become blind to the fact that trying to get voters to vote for you is not only legal but it is exactly how you should set out to win and hold public office in any democracy, including his own. joining us now is rick stengel, the former top state department official and frank figliuzzi, former fbi assistant director for counterintelligence and host of "the bureau" podcast. lucky for us, they are both msnbc contributors. so, this story matters because the republican slide away toward not just democratic norms but celebrating democracy is intentional. it is deliberate, and it is part of a piece and i wonder, rick stengel, what you make of the fact that it's all out in the open now. voting is bad, making it easier to vote is bad, and we're going to look the other way while 400 voting restriction and vote nullification bills race through state legislatures. >> yes, nicole, i mean, if you ask me, the 240 years of american history is about enlarging franchise and enlarging the circle of freedom for all americans. i mean, remember, that original constitution in 1787 only white males who owned property could vote. every year, every decade since then, we have tried to expand the franchise and what you have now, and rand paul's tweet shows it, is you have one party that is trying to narrow the franchise, and one party that is trying to increase it along the lines of what's happened over the centuries. and if you have one party that's trying to make it harder to vote and one party that's trying to make it easier to vote. i mean, democracy means the people rule, and what we have to do is we have to let the people rule and let them vote, and you know, the rand paul thing is -- it's amusing in a way because, of course, the people who can't persuade voters to vote for them then accuse the people who are able to do that of cheating. that is exactly what democracy is all about, and it's sad, as you say, that folks like rand paul and his party don't realize that. >> well, and what's interesting is how much this is the post-defeat -- i don't know if they see it that way, but the post-2020 reason for being a republican, frank, and what sort of the don junior story has in common with the rand paul story is that the projection is the message. don junior went on stage and accused democrats of cheating. the only people who tried to cheat, tried so hard that they tried to install someone atop the justice department and overturn the results of elections in multiple states was donald trump, and it appears his allies in congress were in on it, according to richard donoghue's notes on a call with the acting a.g. and i wonder how far sort of inside the roots of the republican party this anti-democratic movement feels to you. >> that's why i think this quip of rand paul's is so significant. it would be easy to dismiss this as kind of a great headline for "the onion," right? rand paul accuses democrats of getting people to like them. really funny. that's great on a micro-level but on a much deeper level, there's more going on here because as you say, this reflects kind of the strategy moving forward. it's not only a deflection and a distraction from what they're doing, the gop, in terms of limiting access to votes, gerrymandering, redistricting to the point of illegality, to the point where doj is going to need and is suing states, where we'll need an act of congress to preserve the vote. it's, don't look at what we're doing over here. look over there at what happened in wisconsin where the democrats actually made accessibility of ballots a priority. they took legal donations and funds and poured them into key districts. that's cheating. and so, don't look over here at what we're doing. but there's a second thing here that's even deeper which is what i think is a redefinition of democracy and what a free and fair election is. it's happening before our eyes. they're reshaping and causing us to question what is a fair election. and where do i think this is headed? let's engage in some predictive analysis because this is way beyond rand paul. we're seeing the same kind of mantra repeated over and over again. okay, where's it going? less than a year from now, midterm elections are coming up. there's going to be some extremely close u.s. senate races, whether it's arizona or georgia or florida, and if you reshape americans' thinking about what is a fair election? well, it's not really the vote tally. it's whether you perceive it's a credible vote tally or not. and if somebody perceives there is cheating, we're going to have a heck of a time from a security perspective, which is what i look at, come november, in very tight midterm elections if people perceive the vote tally was unfair. >> and we'll look back at this clip on election night in the midterms and say that once again you were right. we're going to to make another n with rick and frank sticking around from anti-democratic republicans. we're going to turn to an alarming new ruling in moscow as the kremlin looks to crush disent there. to crush disent there a chilling day for human rights and defenders in russia. today russian supreme court ordered the oldest human rights group, memorial international, to be dissolved. the group which has been studying repressions by the soviet union and present day russian government since 1992 was accused of violating russia's law on foreign agents which is used by authorities to target rights groups, independent journalists and activists. the move comes as the russian government has ramped up its crackdown on dissidents. just today, russia detained two allies of jailed kremlin foe navalny. your reaction? >> yes. another example of putin's authoritarianism closing off dissent. trying to make it a one-party state. and of course, you can't help but see the parallels with trumpism here, but memorial international is an important organization because not only does it protest human rights violations now in russia. it goes back and investigates human rights violations in russia during the stalin regime where stalin killed 10 to 20 million russians. and in the supreme court, the prosecutor for the state said, can you imagine they're trying to tar and feather joseph stalin. that's what we've come to. like what we were talking about before. they're trying to rewrite history in their own interests and it is very scary and dangerous. >> your reaction? >> why should we care, if for no other reason than if you want to see the page from the putin play book that trump pulled out and tried to replicate and would continue to do so if left unchecked. look what putin is doing to his dissidents right now. yes, this is most significant human rights organization in russia. they hold the files that make history in russia. he's trying to reshape and rewrite that. and dissidents are being poisoned. opponents are falling out of windows, not so mysteriously in russia. like acorns falling off trees. if you want to see this go unchecked and what authoritarianism looks like in russia, look at this right now. >> it is so shocking that tucker carlson is so admiring that they play him on russian tv so frequently. it bends the mind. thank you. so for spending time with us today. a quick break for us. we'll be right back. ack. people everywhere living with type 2 diabetes are waking up to what's possible... with rybelsus®. the majority of people taking rybelsus® lowered their blood sugar and reached an a1c of less than 7. rybelsus® isn't for people with type 1 diabetes. don't take rybelsus® if you or your family ever had medullary thyroid cancer or have multiple endocrine neoplasia syndrome type 2, or if allergic to it. stop rybelsus® 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"the beat" with ari melber starts right now. >> welcome to "the beat." we have a special show for you tonight. it is che day. if you don't know what that means, we invite to you find out. we'll talk politics and also, believe it or not, some nfl. also later in the hour, dave grohl, the rock legend, is on "the beat." and another surprise for you by the end of the hour. and i don't like to giveaway surprisers. no spoilers. about i get to the serious stuff, i will tell you by the end of the hour, if we're not interrupted by breaking news, you will see both of my parents on "the beat." okay. that's later. we begin though with the serious stuff. what we're all living through together. coronavirus. it is back in a big way and the cdc is trying to

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