everything. we are in reactive mode, constantly. >> there are now growing concerns about sole shortages of health care workers. late today, the cdc revived's guidelines saying, those workers who tested positive, who are asymptomatic can come back to work after seven days if they have a negative says, adding that isolation time can be cut further if there are staffing shortages. in many parts of the nation, lines to get a covid has continued to stretch from blocks, ahead of the holidays. supplies of at home tests continue to run out. nbc news reports the dozen or so companies who are authorized to make those tests are scrambling to step up. the white house is pledged to send out 500 million tests to americans, but that starts next month. today, the administration was asked for more details about that program. >> we're just working to finalize contracts. >> as we understand, it they will be a website that people can go to, starting next. week >> we've been planning for the website to be ready when tests. already >> how many -- >> it's a great question, something we're looking to finalize guidance. on will have that available as soon as it's ready. >> meanwhile, the fda is authorized merck's anti viral pill, to treat covid. it is the second such approval, after an authorization for pfizer's treatment came yesterday. we'll have much more on these, just ahead, with doctor vin gupta. new york city officials, meanwhile, are scaling back news celebrations -- to nearly 15,000 people, and requiring masks for all. this is also important news about former trump's president -- hadn't been turned down by everybody else, trump is now asked the supreme court to block the release of his white house records related to january 6th. trump's lawyers argue that he has a constitutional right to keep congress from seeing those materials, even though president biden declined to invoke president -- president trump is more than ordinary citizen, he's one of only one five living americans who has former president, are granted special authority to make determinations regarding the disclosure of records and communication during their terms of office. late today, the january six committee asked the high court to move quickly on trump's appeal, lawyers for the committee say they will respond to trump's appeal by december the 30th. the select committee is also waiting to hear from ohio republican congressman, jim jordan, they've invited him for a voluntary interview about his conversations with trump on the day of the capitol riot. earlier, today congressman jordan was asked what he plans to do about the committee's request. >> we intend to respond to the letter at some point. here >> are you worried about? it >> well, i mean, it is what it is. like i said, we're going to review the letter we just got it yesterday and our team is in the process of doing. that >> with, that let's bring in our lead off guest on this thursday night, peter baker is the -- donna edwards, a former democratic member of congress, now washington post, columnist and barbara mcquade, a federal prosecutor and former united states process -- she worked for the department of justice, during the biden transition. she's a professor with the university of -- she host the podcast, sisters in, law along with kimberly atkins, and joyce vance, -- good evening to all of you. peter baker, let's start with you. rough week in general for the white house, particularly with the collapse of build back better unexpectedly on the news last sunday, but, the omicron virus in the testing requirements that it calls for our something the white house has been behind the curb on all week. >> yeah, look, the one thing that president biden promised as a candidate last year for office, he would tackle covid, and help us get through this pandemic. now, through fault of his own, or no fault of his own, were not there. a year later, we seem to be back -- at least when it comes to. infections not in terms of the same level of severity, as with the doctors are telling us about omicron, but for a lot of americans, if feels like we have yet to move past this to your crisis that we've been living. and there's a lot of exhaustion. a lot of it has been taken on the president. you see that in his approval rating. i think people want the president to get his hands on it. obviously, there's some things he hasn't done, that critics say he should've done, some things are out of his control, including the resistance of the vaccine that is being encouraged by a lot of people on the right. so, one that he knows he needs to do is help people get passes holiday safely. until we get past the peak that, omicron seems to be heading towards, towards spring when there will be more available boosters, more available, test more ville-able therapeutics. there is a light at the end of the tunnel to get past this particular surge, to a place where covid is an endemic, but not necessarily always fatal disease. that's with the biden ministration is trying to get to. they have a lot of dark days between now and then. >> donald, will you make of it? obviously, we're in a different place than we were for all of 2020, when it was adversarial relationship with the white house, in terms of what it was doing with covid. it almost seemed to be downplaying. and now, we have a private tickle, logistical problem, you would think two years after this thing, we'd have testing, but we never had ample testing in united states. all the sudden, everybody wants a test. >> i think that's true. we've basically went from delivering a vaccine, sort of skipping over that process of beginning to integrate testing with our vaccine strategy. i will say this, we are in such a different place. today, over 200 million americans have gotten a vaccine, so you hear these reports of the experience of those who have gotten fully vaccinated and have boosters, that they are not experiencing the same, very devastating symptoms, that to the unvaccinated are. but, we still have a challenge in this country, because vaccination is become so politicized. i look at the former president, trump, as he's now encouraging people to get vaccines, i wonder what would've made a difference a year ago, if he had been encouraging the same thing, instead of essentially, encouraging the disinformation in the chaos that erupted. now we find ourselves in a situation where a full third of americans are still not vaccinated. or 40% of americans are still not vaccinated. >> it's a strange thing to see donald trump pushing back against right wing journalists, who are criticizing the vaccine. barbara, let's talk about on trump for a second. he is now asked the supreme court to stop the handover of documents to the january 6th committee, would you make of that move? was likely to happen? >> well the lead surprising thing of all, is when he filed this appeal. filing it on the last possible day. i think everybody predicted that part of his game is to stall, stole, stall. in hopes that republicans win the midterms, that they will dismantle this committee, and he'll never actually have to reckon with any decisions, or any disclosures. but, this is a distance asian is already been looked at by -- both of them have said that president biden is the one who gets to control executive privilege president biden -- donald trump continues to persist that the national archives should keep these documents secret. i think, he will lose in the supreme court, in fact, i don't think we'll even get the. case i think will simply let the appeals court decision stand. >> and, peter, the committee and his lawyers have asked the high court to look at this, or deal with this, one way or another, very quickly. they say they have a response by the 30th, and his barber said, the supreme court may not entertain this at all, but the bottom line is, this january six committee is gathering lots of information and evidence. do you know what it is that they need from donald trump's documents to continue to make their case? are they getting stuff by going to all these people around, him and gathering the information that they're gathering? >> well, they are gathering stuff that tells us a lot about president. trump even without president trump's cooperation. but everybody wasn't. no more there are so many documents that they can get their hands, on telephone records, records of the president movements, and actions on the day of. a normal white house, they keep a minute by minute record of what the president does, during every single. day those records are very valuable and recreating what happens on a particular. day in this, case we don't know a lot about what president trump did on january 6th. as you, saw there were a couple tweets, in a video that he put out, that were very belated in half hearted, where he finally said go home, patriots, to his supporters, saying we love. you but, we don't know a lot about who he was talking, two on the phone, who's in the oval office with him, what he was doing and saying during this violence. was he in fact satisfied that is supported putting pressure on congress, in such an extreme way, as some people suggested, was he horrified as his own supporters in the white house claim, we don't really. no i think that's one of the things that the committee would like to know more. of one of the things that they're talking about, and barbara craig know more about this and i would, is the idea that trump may be legally liable for obstructing the electoral college count by not stopping this violence, by not acting more assertively. that is something liz cheney is raised. that's something that you heard that the committee is looking at, they like to know more about what he did indeed into on that day. >> yeah, don, uninterested on your perspective on. this as a former member of congress -- by action, or inaction, donald trump may be criminally responsible. this committee, moving, ahead despite a whole lot of roadblocks in its way, asking to members of congress to come before them and we have evidence. one, pennsylvania scott perry, has said absolutely no way. the other, one jim jordan, interestingly, enough has not said no way yet, but we know these guys both have information. what's your sense of how this committee is operating right now? >> well, i actually think they're acting very deliberately. we noticed that there haven't been a lot of leaks coming out, but the statements that have been made on public records are very deliberate. their intentional, both to send a message and to be clear about what the committee is doing. i think, we're all looking forward to those open hearings -- public hearings crumbling up in the new year, because that will reveal a lot about the hundreds of interviews that they conducted, and about the thousands and thousands of documents that they've been able to go. through so, i think we still don't know where we don't know, but i suspect this committee, even in calling jim jordan and other members of congress, really is beginning to piece together the information that they would hope to gleam in their testimony. i suspect that they know an awful lot about what happened from the other witnesses who come before the committee. >> i would like to get your view on this, barbara, as a former prosecutor, that liz cheney was paraphrasing a law -- which would make it a felony to attempt to corruptly obstruct influence or impede any official proceeding there are some important words there, whether it's done corruptly, and the idea of obstructing, as opposed to simply protesting something. and of whether or not the january 6th -- or the events that were going on january six and congress constitute official proceeding. there's sort of three sad news that need to be met in order to charge donald trump and his associates with criminal behavior here. >> yes. in fact, when liz cheney under those words, they're kind of the magical incantation that every -- and say she just recited the elements of the obstruction of justice stature. it's the way that you might be at a cocktail party and there's a murmur of voices, but when somebody says you name, you snap your head around i, think most of us had as a reaction when she under those magic. words number one, corruptly. that just means that you had some improper purpose in what you did, or in case in this case which you didn't do. most of the time a crime require some action, but for certain people it can also be in a mission. for somebody like donald trump, who has a duty of -- an act bio mission, could also be critical to. instruct or to put a stop impede that to means a stop to or tamper or tamper with with an an investigation in some way investigation. in some way we've had a couple of courts decide on this, saying that this is different, this isn't like lying or intimidating a witness to simply interrupt the proceedings by allowing a protest to go on. courts have now held that this is sufficient for the obstructing of or impeding of an official proceeding. in fact, i've had cases elie, in the past where people pulled the fire alarm in the courthouse, to interrupt the court proceedings for the day, so that they didn't have to have the hearing where the bomb would be revoked to go back to jail. that counts as obstructing an official proceeding, so i think if it's there. finally, is it in official proceeding, i think that one is -- of congress, so it's really just a matter of do the facts support it, that's why congress is so eager to get their hands on this document, to see if he did know that people were dying, and yet he continue to persist in his omission, i'm not putting a stop to it when he had the power to do so. >> >> donna, you actually work with jim jordan and for viewers have this network, they may not know him well but for viewers of the network that sits across the room for us, they know him very well. he's probably on fox every day. what do you make of him and his role in this? as far as you know? >> look, i don't know but i think that his earlier interviews on fox that he has tried to clean up since then sort of speak to what he may have been doing on january 6th. and i do know that jim jordan was actually in my class. i was a classmate. i came in later. but he is belligerent and he will get in the way. and i think that right now he is trying to figure out how he can reconcile what he actually did on january 6th, what his documents say that he was doing and what he said about what he was doing. and he may not be able to square that circle. >> thank you to the three of you for joining us and kicking off this discussion, peter baker, donna edwards, and barb mcquade, we appreciate your. time coming up, dr. vin gupta, is here to talk about the increasing strain the unvaccinated are putting on the health care system. and we will also talk to historian john meacham about the state of our democracy and critical challenges ahead for the president. the 11th hour is getting underway on a thursday night. ursday night new vazalore is the first liquid-filled aspirin capsule clinically shown to cause fewer ulcers than plain aspirin. vazalore is designed to help protect... releasing aspirin after it leaves your stomach... where it is absorbed to give you the benefits of life saving aspirin... to help prevent another heart attack or stroke. heart protection with your stomach in mind. try new liquid-filled vazalore. aspirin made amazing! it's our holiday savings event on the sleep number 360 smart bed. what if i sleep hot? 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she said she would be home in time for the show. don't worry, sweetie. she promised she'd be here for it. ooh! nice shot! thanks! glad we have xfinity, with wifi speed faster than a gig! me too! woah, look! mom is on tv! she's amazing! (cheers) xfinity brought us together, after all! power your whole home this holiday with wifi speeds faster than a gig. click, call, or visit a store today. early research from south sing 2 africa and the united kingdom suggests omicron infections may result in milder illness than earlier variance. but health officials have warned that the unvaccinated are at higher risk and already strained health care workers are struggling with an overwhelming burden of patients. the washington post reports that in new england hospitals are struggling under immense pressure driven by the delta variant. quote, doctors in the region all said that a substantial majority of the patients currently hospitalized with covid -- between 60% and 80% -- were unvaccinated. the breakthrough cases, meaning those who are vaccinated, that end up in the hospital, tend to be milder and are concentrated among older patients and people with other health conditions, they said. back with us tonight, dr. vin gupta, critical care pulmonologist in seattle, he has advised us on the pandemic since its early days. he is also on the faculty of the university of washington institute for health metrics and evaluation. vin, good to see you, as always, my friend. these increased hospitalizations, which we were seeing prior to the onset of omikron, are these mostly delta hospitalizations? or omicron hospitalizations? or do we know? >> ali, great to see you. the answer is, we don't know. of all the tests that ultimately get sent to an advanced lab, it is sequenced, genetically sequenced and most are coming back omicron positive. i think it is fair to say that it has been important, just to emphasize this to your viewers out there, that these vaccines are doing exactly what they should. vaccines against a contagious respiratory virus never were meant to prevent a positive test for mild symptoms. they were only meant to keep us out of the hospital. so the reason why we say, please get the flu shot, flu is approaching pre-pandemic levels, the flu vaccine keeps you out of the hospital. what we are seeing is not entirely surprising. >> vin, what do you know about the degree to which this is behaving unusually? in that it spreads very easily and very quickly? but if you are vaccinated, very few people are, in fact, getting seriously ill. >> you know what is really interesting? what we are learning now from south africa, and scientists out in europe? it is illuminating for the rest of the world, the geography of our immune system in our respiratory tract. probably something we would not have talked about on national tv together two years ago. but here we are talking about it. what we now know is that we just don't have a lot of defenses, ali, in our nose. in our upper respiratory tract. but in our lungs we have t cells, immune system fighters that prevent illness. we have a lot more antibodies. so what omicron has been able to do is that it has been able to overpower our initial defenses in our nose. because there is not as many. but by the time the virus travels down into our lungs, it is facing an armada of immune cells, which is why, yes, you should be triple-vaccinated, but by the time it goes down to your lungs, the virus is going to be defeated. that's why we need to emphasize what is actually happening so that people can make sense of it. >> i saw you tweet that and i didn't understand what it meant until you explained it right now. so i appreciate you helping us understand that better. let's talk about the speed at which omicron starts spreads and takes off like a wildfire. and then we are seeing in south africa where it is slowing down at almost the same speed. doctor fauci says that, look, we don't have enough information to understand what the differences are in population concentrations or demographics. or things like that. but is it possible that this is a different sort of graph of this infection? >> it very well may be. i will say that it is doubly time, it is so extraordinary. those of you watching that are unvaccinated, this version of this virus will come find you. that, to me, seems like it is a foregone conclusion there. whether it is going to spike or come down like it did in south africa, we will see. but my colleagues at the institute for health metrics, they are forecasting 10,000 weekly deaths, week over week, just from covid, whether it is delta and a combination of omicron. so we are not out of this. yet flu season is approaching people pre-pandemic levels. but if you are triple-vaccinated and doing all the right things, travel safe, you are safe. >> by the way, the institute for health metrics at the university of washington is the gold standard in terms of projections and has turned out to be very accurate. talk to me about health care workers, vin. we are seeing health care workers getting sick, we see the cdc changing its guidelines, about if a health care worker but is asymptomatic and they get a negative test and they isolate, they can get back to work soon. how severe is this shortage of health care workers? >> it is acute and chronic, i would say. this has long existed. 40% of nurses are due to see leave the workforce by 2030. now you couple omicron, this is a major problem for system already stressed. what the cdc did today was a great first step. you will see airlines, flight attendants, other places where there are key staff, maybe not in the health care sector, also clambering for policy change. it is good for health care workers and other frontline workers. just like they did in the uk. so this will be more of the same across sectors. >> i want to talk to you about these antiviral pills. according to the new york times, in a clinical trial, merck's drug reduce the risk of hospitalization by death or death by 30% when given to high-risk people. pfizer's pill was found to reduce that risk by 88%. explain this to me. it's 30% -- i guess 30% is better than oh percent. but what do you make of the efficacy of these two drugs? >> you know, the problem with the merck fill, it's that the pfizer pill is dramatically better in performance. high-risk people, early diagnosis, it sends them out of the hospital, and merck does it to the tune of 30% as compared to 80%. it's pretty simple. if you are patient, which one do you want prescribed? the pfizer pill. in addition, the merck bill has some concerning potential side effects. for example, looks like pregnant women may fit this demographic. early diagnosis of covid. they are not advised to get this pill. there are some initial side effect concerns, potentially. when you couple that with the fact that it is all about perception interest, who is actually going to want the merck bill relative to the pfizer bill? so, it is going to be really important to scale manufacturing of the pfizer pill, and if there are no concerning side effects, people are going to want that. that is going to be critical for saving lives here and globally. >> dr. gupta, as always, thank you for being with us, dr. vin gupta, a critical care pulmonologist pulmonologist in seattle. coming, up hearing more about the president about his accomplishments. and he is looking to get as much accomplish as possible in his social spending plan. when the 11th hour continues. h hour continues highly recommend it! zifans love zicam's unique zinc formula. it shortens colds! zicam. zinc that cold! i've been telling everyone... it shortens colds! the secret to great teeth is having healthy gums. crest advanced gum restore. detoxifies below the gumline... and restores by helping heal gums in as little as 7 days. how are you not able to close crest. the #1 toothpaste brand in america. the deal? >> let's talk about what we have done. we have pass more major legislation than anybody in the first year ever. i have not given up on. this i haven't given up on it. >> the main sticking, point it would appear, is a child tax credit. are you willing to take that out, if it means bringing him on board? >> i want to get as much as i can possibly get done. it's extremely consequential. >> president biden had hoped to be heading into christmas with the seventh vote on a signature piece in his agenda. he's not giving up on the build back better bill. well we just heard, he's hoping people will start talking about what he's already accomplished. back with us, victoria defrancesco, the incoming dean of the u2 never city -- public service, and stuart stevens a veteran of the mitt romney, and george w. bush campaigns. he's now with the lincoln project. his latest book, it was all a lie how, the republican party became donald trump. good evening to both of you. thank you for being with us. dean, let's ask you first about what joe biden is trying to message here. he's trying to get the point across that a lot has been done. he talked about the performers on the economy, some headlines indicate that it has been struggling. it's actually been doing better than some people suggest. trying to draw attention away from the build back better fiasco. >> he's framing the message in terms of what is positive. looking at the glass half full, rather than half empty. i think, implicitly and at some point explicitly leading up to the election, there was so much comparison between joe biden, build back better, fdr, lbj. we're comparing apples with oranges. it's so frustrating. the political moments that brought about this big congressional legislative changes that this country is known, in terms of a new deal -- are different from what we have, today. what we need to do is look at build back better. look at joe biden's moment, understand better, the and president hype -- and take stock of what is happening, not always trying to compare it to what we saw 50 years ago, or 80 years ago. i think he's doing exactly what he needs to do. he's drawing attention to what he's done, and not comparing it to others. >> it's an interesting, point. stuart those other big moments of bipartisan, or unity around major legislation, have followed things, in which the country has experienced a shared tragedy. i would've thought that covid might be that share tragedy, but the bottom line is that we are so polarized, that the country doesn't have a shared view of what the country looks like. that seems to be stymieing some of biden's best instincts. >> look, i think, that world is disappeared. perhaps, forever. i don't think we talk about this enough, the majority of republican party believes that joe biden is not a legal president. nobody, since 1860, has been in that position, trying to negotiate a deal with that kind of -- beyond partisanship. they believe that they live in a occupied country. that's so extraordinary, and unique, that i think the biden administration is done a good job of trying to get this stuff passed. how long did it take republicans on infrastructure? even a kid born during the first week of republican infrastructure, you'd be in the -- biden got it done. . i'm a biden optimist on this. i think it's very steady, and they've got a very good pan campaign, they don't panic. i think by the end of january though, how this bill passed. >> victoria, what is the pivot? here is it a pivot? what is biden need to do, at this point, to realizing the barriers that he's facing? particularly, with manchin. >> do it he does best. talk, negotiate, be joe. i think, this is what he sold us on, in terms of -- he has this experience. he's been in the. senate he can talk to federal lawmakers. this is the moment, where he has to come through. joe manchin, knows very well would've needs to take back to west virginia. joe biden needs to meet him where he is. and, he may not get everything that he wants with build back better, but he needs to get something. ultimately, that is going to be what he then pivots and frames back to the american public, in terms of this is what i. did he's not going to get everything in the build back better that he campaigned for, but he is going to get something. let's focus on that something, rather than the shoulder hole shebang might not come through. >> stewart, he's talking about getting something, as victoria 's. there's also a pivot to voting rights, that schumer has made, or at least says the democratic party is going to make. and that a lot of democrats would like biden to get behind. this is the most directly he's talked about options around changing the filibuster. your thoughts on whether that's a nonstarter, or whether they have space to make that happen. >> i hope they do. it's sort of amazing that we're having this conversation, while there is a committee investigating a kook against the government. for -- it speaks to where we are as a country. i think that it is critical. without this, you get republicans who are pretty clear in what they want to do. how many people, how many parties have attempted a coup, -- not many. that's what we're looking at, if the republicans get in power. >> you set is up for the conversation we're going to have next. i appreciate that, stewart. stuart stevens, and victoria, we appreciate your time tonight. -- amid a stalled domestic agenda, and a spike in the pandemic. -- the critical challenges on the administration that lie ahead. when the 11th hour continues. continues what happened was, the omicron virus spread more rapidly than anybody. thought some people think that i don't hold a grudge, but i want to get things done. i still think there's a possibility to get build back better. done senator manchin and i are going to get something done. why would i not run against donald trump -- as a country, we can come together, democrats, republicans, independents, and do big. things >> wall street journal sums up the challenges for president biden heading into the new year, this way, quote, mr. biden will enter 2022 with his narrow majorities in congress at risk and a perilous path to achieve his promises to address climate change voting rights and police reform along with the call moments of the proposal known as build back better now in limbo in the senate. back with us, john mission, -- and the rogers chair, in the american presidency, at vanderbilt university -- on historical matters and major speeches. john, it's great to see you again, at the end of this tumultuous year. i always want to get your first take on legacy and history. joe biden -- but in, fact he seems to come into his own, when it comes to making deals and negotiating, and staring down the barrel of challenges. what do you make of the position he's in right now? >> i think all great presidents are in battled. the fact is not, being embattled, it's way do you do with it. when we talk about biden's bad week, or a rough year, it's not a vocabulary that's commensurate to the challenges we're facing. this is democracies our of maximum danger. we are as close to losing the constitutional republic, that a lot of us have taken for granted for a long time, as we have -- that's not hyperbolic, i think it's self evidently true. the presidents challenge is to keep our republic together, that seems insistent, at least part of it seems insistent, on living according to its own reality. according to its own tribal instincts. not understanding, or at least not choosing to understand, that democracy is about seeing each other, not as adversaries, but as neighbors. this is not a mr. rogers kind of thing, it's a fundamental aspect of popular government. i help you tomorrow morning, not just because i'm a good guy, if i were, but because i might need you, tomorrow afternoon. there's a reason the commandment is love thy neighbor, as thyself. it's not just love your neighbor because it's the right thing to do, it's a covenant. i extend a hand because i might need a hand. that's where we are. i think, if anybody can articulate that, in the public square, to go to what you just, said i do think is joe biden. >> does he have other partners who have that worldview? he has been shaped in the united states senate? he has seen it work over time. but that doesn't work in a vacuum. does he have people -- and maybe he's got one in joe manchin, maybe he see something in joe manchin a lot of democrats don't. but does he have any more partners who are prepared to say, hey, we've got to choose a different road here and get some things done? >> it's a terrific question. and i do think that one of the things we talked about, when we talk about senator manchin, understandably -- there are 50 republican senators who are simply not part of this conversation. and that is a remarkable thing. if, 40 years ago, when president reagan came to office he passed significant economic legislation in his first year, because he got some democratic votes. those democrats ultimately became republicans in the course of things. but this isn't even about -- we are not even talking about getting some republicans to vote for the significant domestic legislation. and they are having to talk about undoing the filibuster to talk about the basic building blocks of democracy. the voting rights stuff here is not just about voter i.d. and the traditional conversation we have. there is a new conversation going on since this time last year, which is about certification. it is about officials in the states. it's about let state legislatures choosing to throw out a result they don't like. there is a gravity to this conversation that is not partisan but it feels partisan and it feels partisan because the republican party has become a wholly owned subsidiary of donald trump. it could recover. it can become a fully functioning constitutional party again. but it is not, as we sit here at the end of 2021. and i think that's the task before that party. and president biden is here trying to do this with the narrowest of margins. and it's as if we can take half the country and say, they are not part of this? of course they are part of it. >> john, stand by, i want to continue this conversation about the degree to which you state that democracy is in peril. you called it democracies our of maximum danger. we will take a look at the state of our democracy as we near the anniversary of january 6th, right after this, when the 11th hour continues. our continues. our friend five bill kristol "the bulwark" writes that the guardrails of liberal democracy are not stronger than they were a year ago. quote, the anti democratic forces seem stronger at the end of 2021 than they were at the beginning. the republican party seems to be more captive to authoritarian demagoguery today than it was a year ago, following trump's defeat. is jon meacham still with us. jon, this article by bill kristol is interesting. this column in which he says, november 3rd, 2020 was more like dunkirk, an escape from a terrible outcome, an occasion to have a huge sigh of relief, but ultimately a success that allows us to regroup and gather our energies and forces for a longer fight. i think he is on to something here. for those who think that this threat is behind us, they are woefully wrong. >> yeah. yeah. as churchill said of dunkirk, wars are not won by evacuations. i think bill is exactly right there. joe biden's election was not the day. it was a critical of battle. it is a sign that there is the capacity for progress in the country. joe biden is president. 81 million people want him to be president. the problem is, so many people who, at some level, must know better, think he is not. i think that somehow or another, the election was stolen. or they think it or they say they think it because an authoritarian has told them to think that. and that is the beginning of the end. to play one more churchill card, churchill once said we are not at the beginning of the end but at the end of the beginning. and so, i think that what we face right now is a genuine crisis of citizenship. this is not -- let me put it this way. joe biden is not on trial here. you know, we pull on him and it's his approval rating. we should be polling about ourselves. right? this is about self government. it is about popular government. it's about all of us making a decision about our habits of hearts and minds. and are we in fact mature enough? are we strong enough to win a few and lose a few? are we able to do that? and part of democracy is being a gracious loser. and saying, you know what, we lost this one. we are going to keep this journey toward a more perfect union going and we will try to win the next time. and that is the way they should be. and interesting lee, for somebody who does what i do for a living, it is highly, highly unusual -- i don't know, you can never use the word unprecedented, because everything is precedent it, from the garden of eden forward -- but richard nixon, in 1960, did not say that john kennedy was a fake president. you would humphrey, in 1968, did not say that richard nixon was a fake president. this is something different. and what we have to do, and it really is about us, is we have to be able to say, you know what? we are not going to follow a cult of personality because when you follow a cult of personality, when you put the will to power at the center of everything, then we are back in a state of nature. right? we are back to what hobbs called the war of all against all. and democracy was supposed to save us from those worst appetites. >> we have work to do, jon, when you say things like democracies our of maximum danger or a crisis of citizenship, i think there are reasonable people in all parties that don't know that that is true. and don't worry that that is true. i hope they hear what you have to say. tonight jon meacham, we always appreciate what you have to say. we are back with more of the 11th hour after a quick break. quick break. the last thing before we go tonight, when we lost when we can show, one of my main goals was to learn how people across the country feel about the many issues that we discussed daily, with experts, in journalists, on this network. -- i was able to do just that. this weekend, i'll be highlighting some of our best discussions, with people like you from across this great country. we visited nearly 20 cities, discussing some of the critical issues of our, time gender, class, race, how those manifest in society. i hope you'll tune in this saturday morning, at 8 am eastern, right here on msnbc. that is our broadcast, for this thursday. thanks for being with us. on behalf of all my colleagues, at the networks of nbc news, goodnight. tonight, on all in. donald trump appeals to the supreme court. jim jordan begins his own tactics, as the night -- legal scholars get loud on over the inaction of the justice department. lawrence tribe joins me on that. then, why the first cooperation agreement for a proud boy could be a big deal. alarming new reporting on the nonstop multi-state -- to overcome the 2020 election. the verdict of kim potter's manslaughter trial surprises. many four months after our last troops left afghanistan, america in the world need to act to end afghan hunger crisis. this