attempt to overturn the election. some of trump's allies were working day and night from a command center. here is our conversation with the author of one of the year's most highly anticipated books took us through what was happening that day. >> let's bring in bob woodward and robert costa. they are coarthurs of the book "peril." you see a lot of washington before but just weeding through what happened the night before this insurrection or the united states government sois chilling and it shows just how pre-meditated that attack was. >> yes, it was all planned out in a key way we found december 30th, this is a week before january 6th, before the insurrection, steve bannon and trump talking on the phone and bannon just steering trump up. you got to come back, this is a day of reckoning in a week, we need to get hands involved and get him off the effin' ski slopes. it's very active and you start interlacing this at what happened at the willard hotel that night on january 5th. my colleague, costa, who always has the news knows was there that night. >> well, i was outside and the whole scene. >> reporters. i wish i had banged a little harder on that door. i remember we talked about it. when you write a book, it tkes months to understand. we didn't know at the time trump was over at the white house pounding into pence on the one-on-one oval office meeting. after it does not go well for trump, he calls into the willard ward. this is the king thing we found for "peril." the president is calling in and trump is calling in, he's coordinating this effort to speak for pence. trump issuing a statement saying trump's agreeing with me. this is all hours before the insurrection. this is building a mechanism for this attack and at the capitol. this is showing it was not just trump rowdying the crowd up. this is as what you guys put it a war room, a calculated set of meetings. >> yes, and phone calls and agitations and there is no agitation than steve bannon. there is a case just in what we know is 18 u.s. code section 371. i am sorry this sounds technical but it is a law that says it's a crime to defraud the government in any deceptive way. that's what they did here. >> that's what we are trying to understand, what's next for the attorney general. a lot of unanswered questions about what else don't we know about trump's activities talking to bannon and rudy giuliani. where does this line cross? at that willard hotel, you had proud boys and oath keepers gathered. i saw them on the street that night. >> bob woodward, i talked about it once or twice before. in 2015 when we were talking to trump and i remember going to -- i am talking about mika and myself not you and trump. i remember going over to trump tower and there had been some incident in one of his rallies and i remember trump saying my god, those people would kill for me. and when he said it and i looked closer and it occurred to me as i walked out, i talked the mika, i told him what he said and i think he saw that as a positive thing and you see five years later, he knocks over the door and the white house and the mob is chanting and everybody is freezing inside and there is trump soaking it in. people shivering. he won't close the doors because he loves the mob violence. it's not just the mob or the violence here. it's to a purpose as we quote bannon in our book saying "this is all designed to kill the biden presidency in the crib." this is a disruption of the functioning of government. if you get into the technicality of this january 6th, it's the only cob in the wheel where the government officially says this is going to be the next president. bannon and trump realized that this is the point they have to blow it up and that's what they did. you can't run away from the consequences of what this was and you get john eastman and his memo and the theory of the case here. it really is let's make it up. one of the elements in 371 is knowing what you are saying is wrong and false and you got eastman out there saying there is seven states with alternative electors and there are zero when you look at it. we spent months looking. >> i am curious to the code that bob woodward cited. who in this scheme that you uncovered and who's accountable beyond the men who hold the highest office in the land, president trump, who could be hold accountable in this type of thing to that quote that you cited. >> well, first of all, the law in the crime is two people, two or more defeat the purpose or the responsibility of the government here. you have trump and bannon. trump's president at this moment and i remember vividly in 1974 when they had this problem of nixon, they made him an unindicted coconspirator. >> it's not vague, it's direct. if we are going to have a democracy and we do, you can't have one side, the losing side in a presidential election say let's work in conspire and deceit. >> it can sound swaggering and too much but think of the intent behind it. they're all working, rudy giuliani and trump trying to push the election to the house of representatives where house republicans likely to keep trump in power. they want to make it impossible for biden to govern. what about mike pence asking questions of how he possibly could make it happen for him. >> well, there is always that pressure we laid out. >> it's interesting to see pence so torn. a trump's loyalist and he realizes and we don't say there are heroes in this book. there are people recognizing the constitution of the united states and you can't go against it. >> jonathan lemire here. >> this terrific reporting in your book on the event of january 6th and how it's playing in capitol hill. how do you see going forward if bannon will be in fact charged and what sort of effect will it have if any on the trump's movement ahead of 2024. he confirmed what we said in the book. the elements are definitely here. somebody makes a cold case that this is a criminal conspiracy, it's so important that trump holds out the invitation to power. hey mike, would it just feel great, would it be cool to have this power to decide who the next president is and if at this point pence will not play but it's in the constitution. it's the 12th amendment that it says the president of the senate who's the president forget this will look at the certificate in the states and count the votes. >> up next for conversation of bob woodward and bob costa. if someone asks you to write a memo on how to overthrow a country. >> a democracy? i remember who it was. >> you remember who did that. >> one key player in trump's failed coup is having a tough time to recalling. >> the corespondent who broke that story, next. corespondent that story, next motrin works fast to stop pain where it starts. like those nagging headaches. uncomfortable period pains. and disruptive muscle aches. you can count on fast, effective relief with motrin. if you have this... consider adding this. an aarp medicare supplement insurance plan from unitedhealthcare. medicare supplement plans help by paying some of what medicare doesn't... and let you see any doctor. any specialist. anywhere in the u.s. who accepts medicare patients. so if you have this... consider adding this. call unitedhealthcare today for your free decision guide. ♪ as a dj, i know all about customization. for your free decision guide. that's why i love liberty mutual. they customize my car insurance, so i only pay for what i need. how about a throwback? ♪ liberty, liberty, liberty, liberty ♪ only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty, liberty, liberty, liberty ♪ this is the new world of work. each day looks different than the last. but, whatever work becomes, the world works with servicenow. (tiger) this is the dimension of imagination. ♪ ♪ welcome back, we continue our conversations with the authors of this year's most talked about book of donald trump. we are back live with bob woodward and robert costa, the shocking revelation of their new book are playing out right now in washington. i am curious for both of you, donald trump reported how upset and in your report he was upset with ted cruz. can you go into details how he was waging against everybody? >> a lot are saying hey, we want to help you out, you have a lot of political capital and with we are your allies. when pence says i am not going to do what you want to trump and trump sitting there on the night of january 5th and his people and crew over at the willard, he's making other calls saying what else can be done and he called cruz on the night of the 5th saying can you object to everything? senator cruz saying whoa, we are going to do what we can but we are not going to go buck wild on january 6th. >> at 1:00 a.m. trump is tweeting, mike, you can do this. all these people are questioning what the states have formally. >> imagine in 2024, if republicans in the states are ready, you could have a constitutional crisis and that to me is the real issue looming ahead f the system in some ways manipulate where a legitimate election is not considered legitimate and an alternate slate is presented. how is the system possible? >> can you link together what happened on the night of january 5th and trump's rage and nobody was willing to overturn the election on january the 6th in congress and then the planning for the speech, the planning for the riot and bannon saying things were going to be crazy the next day. can you talk about the link between those two things and even rudy giuliani's call for combat for justice. how much were bannon and rudy giuliani and trump consciously planning for that crowd to go up and cause mayhem and stop the counting of the constitutional requirements that the votes are counted and the vote is certified. >> i think it's all conscious. there is nothing spontaneous about this at this point because they realized this is the alamo. this is the end. this is the last chance they have and so they ring out everything they have gotten and we know a lot of it and we have a lot of it in the book. there is new reporting that people are bringing to this. and the interesting test is going to be what's going to provide us with the full story. can you the january 6th committee in the house really do this and get to the bottom of it? >> there is a lot of other great reporting going on out there. the new york times and washington post and they're trying to piece it together and to answer your question, joe, where are the other unanswered questions on the rally itself and the oath keepers and the proud boys and the march of pennsylvania avenue. we focused on trump and what he was doing and who was he talking to and that links to the president and the unrest. where do those lines krozed from that war room with rudy giuliani potentially? we don't know the fact potentially to some of what happened at the capitol in terms of the violence. if you look at the federal statue for conspiracy to commit sedition, that linkage is critical of what we hearing what happened on january the 5th, the riots happened on january 6th. if you are apart of the conspiracy and to stop the counting of the electoral votes and a clear reading of the u.s. statue on conspiracy to commit sedition would mean anybody that was in the white house or anybody that was over at the willard and that so-called war room were conspireing to do that and stop the count by this protest and riot. it's clear the doj would take a look at that because they would be guilty most likely or at least be brought up on charges for being apart of a conspiracy to commit sedition. it's very clear. >> i am sorry. we got to connect this. two days later, january 8th as we lay out in the book. this is general millie, anderson sees the chinese are watching what's going on in the united states and they're worried the united states is going to collapse and the iranians are worried about this and the russians. they go on military alert and create this atmosphere of, it's the days before and the weeks before and also that time of january 6th and the realization of the world that america is on the brink. >> trump's adviser had the authority to project electoral college votes on january 6th. the memo does not represent his views. in two recent conversations with the national review john eastman reportedly said his memo describing pence as the ultimate arbiter of the vote was, quote, "not viable." i was asked to outline each of those scenarios would work and present my view whether it was viable or not. joining us now is john mccormick. who could he can't recall, number one and tell us what eastman said in the memo verses what he said he says. >> he can't remember who it was because he had so many phone calls. he does not know who it was. that's what he says. eastman and trump on stage on january 6th, they called for pence not to count the votes and to flout the federal law and delay it and give the states seven to ten days and conspiracy theory of vote machines and changing votes. the idea of who had the -- so eastman tells me this was not a viable strategy and it's crazy to think it would have been viable because republicans just would not held firm. think that's correct. liz cheney is a soul vote for wyoming. no one would know what would happen in authorities claim it? others have said the senate may have overruled pence and possibly speaker pelosi would adjourn the session. we don't know what exactly happened so that's why it was so chaotic. >> what's the consequences if so any if he's facing for this memo. >> there is possible disbarment in california. >> what about alternate slates of electorates being out there on the state when there's clearly not. >> i pressed him on this. they're people who gathered without any authority whatsoever. he says well, there were handful of state legislatures, majority of the senate were asking for this. again, there was no majority whatsoever. well, there were handful and there were claims of voter fraud. . >> just to press that point further, it was essentially the memo in these further conversations with him you had about trying to delay everything so alternate slates can cobble together in the states so trump can win the house? >> that was the final laid out. so first of all, he says yes, this was preliminary. how would it play out? if you look at the texts and the memo itself, this is saying we proposed a scenario and you get no sense of him passing out one idea. >> we are deep in the weeds of what's happening here which is frightening. bob woodward, how do you describe what was happening leading up to not only the assault on the capitol but this attempt to sort of change the outcome? >> i mean it's exactly the deceptive practices that the law says would be a crime for somebody -- they're all working together. it's not straight and we know it's not straight. we knew when we wrote the book and put it together, there is something here that resonates and smells fraud and if we are going to have a system where the losing can date can come in and say oh, wait a minute, fraud here, we got to delay the process. if that losing candidate can win people over in the states to actually implement the deception, come up with, what do we have? this is all built into the constitution on one statement in the 12th amendment. there is nothing else to act it up really except the electoral count wall which was from 1887. there is work to be done in terms of understanding. what happens in 2024, we have to try to fix it. >> john mccormick, final thoughts. >> there is a lot of unanswered questions. i don't know how far that committee will get. >> okay, john mccormick, thank you very much for your reporting, bob woodward and robert costa and thank you both as well. the new book of course is "peril." still ahead, long before the me too movement. anita hill was leading the charge against the sexual harassment. my conversation with the long time advocate is next on "morning joe." t on "morning joe." with age comes more... get more with neutrogena® retinol pro plus. a powerful .05% retinol that's also gentle on skin. for wrinkles results in one week. neutrogena®. for people with skin. ♪ ♪ cases of anxiety in young adults are rising as experts warn of the effects on well-being caused by the pandemic. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪♪♪ ♪♪it's a most unusual day♪♪ ♪♪feel like throwing my worries away♪♪ ♪♪as an old native-born californian would say♪♪ ♪♪it's a most unusual day♪♪ ♪♪it's a most unusual sky♪♪ ♪♪not a sign of a cloud passing by♪♪ ♪♪if my heart won't behave in the usual way♪♪ experience the power of sanctuary at the lincoln wish list event. bogeys on your six, limu. they need customized power car insurancesanctuary from liberty mutual so they only pay for what they need. woooooooooooooo... we are not getting you a helicopter. only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ ♪ feel stuck and need a loan? move to sofi and feel what it's like to get your money right. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ move to a sofi personal loan. earn $10 just for viewing your rate — and get your money right. ♪ ray loves vacations. but his diabetes never seemed to take one. everything felt like a 'no'. everything. but then ray went from no to know. with freestyle libre 2, now he knows his glucose levels when he needs to. and... when he wants to. so ray... can be ray. take the mystery out of your glucose levels, and lower your a1c. now you know. try it for free. visit freestylelibre.us nearly three decades ago, much of the country was trans fixed, in october of 1991, a 35-year-old anita hill testified before an all-male senate panel about the sexual harassment she experienced while she was an aide to clarence thomas who had been her supervisor at the equal opportunity employment. for many it was the first time of a public harassment. thomas was confirmed to the supreme court. hill's testimony left a lasting impact on this nation that's still evidence today. she's now back in the spotlight once again. this time with a brand new book. >> joining us now, anita hill, the author of the new book "believing," our 30 years journey to end gender violence and appreciate you joining us this morning. i would like to start pulling back 20,000 feet and first of all, define gender violence and where are we? >> i am talking about intimate partner violence, some form of incense, sexual harassment and sexual assault and rape. it's a big category. i hesitate to list because i know i am going to miss something but the main point is what i am talking about is violence. directed individuals with sexual gender. >> as i was hearing from people all over including men, i realized that sexual harassment was only one component that gender violence is a range of behaviors and it had tremendous impact because of that range of behaviors it covers. >> tell me about that title, "believing," that's a powerful title. can you talk about why you entitle the book believing? >> the book is about my journey as well as i believe the journey of this entire country as we look at the issue o f gender violence. it's believing that we deserve to do better and believing that we can do better and that we can solve this problem and we can change our way and that we can acknowledge that this is a crisis level problem that's impacting all of us. >> it impacts our families and neighborhoods and our nation. >> where do you think we stand in terms of addressing the issue of sexual harassment in the workplace and as it pertains to quality, equal pay? we know 50% of the women have been harassed and we know 50% of those women have been harassed will either change job or entire career because of a problem. we only begun to address the issue. one of the things that occur to me as a lawyer and scholar and also as a lawyer associated with a law firm is that we can do with the law and court casecase. we can't do everything to make the change. we know the problem is not only a legal problem. many times, the system fails with individuals come forward. it's a cultural problem. >> where does due process stand and the concept of trying to make head way in the issue of sexual harassment? i feel like in the me too age, it's becoming a dirty word. there are limits of what the law can do. >> we still have comments that are gender slurs and we have touching that's going on in the workplaces. >> we need to fix the problem. it does not have anything to do with due process. you are system is set up to protect everyone's rights whether it's our criminal justice system or our civil system. there are rules to protect everyone's right and it should be. we are not doing enough in terms of our processes and procedures the bring people into that could get them help. >> that's a great point, protecting and being able to use your voice. protecting being able to speak out and making women feel like they can without any type of retribution. >> and retaliation is a huge problem. >> 60% of the people who complain about sexual harassment will face retaliation. what we are talking about is people just wanting to do their job. we are talking about people wanting to do their jobs and trying to do their jobs but being kept from doing their jobs because of this behavior. again, that's only one as expect of what i deal with and believing in what i do help us understand how sexual harassment and my experience really connected with the experiences of so many different people, different kinds of behavior, for example, one of the first calls i got helped me recognize this was a man who had been an incest victim. the way the system responded to his complaint was the way his problem was. the connection was there. we don't address all of the problem. i don't think we are ever going to get at any one specific kind of behavior. we got to go to its roots. >> it's a good example of moving forward. the cuomo investigation, how do you feel that went? >> i think that was a perfect example of what i am talking about. what we had with leticia james and who ran what i perceive to be and all the paper work to be independent investigation into the charges that were brought against governor cuomo. she had witnesses come in from both sides and both parties and she detailed her investigation and detailed and articulated what was said and why he reached the conclusion she did and she made a public announcement about it. and i think that did away with so many of these claims and public charges are made. well, it's just a he says and she says, no, what you have is not only a full investigation in the cuomo case but you have a full report, you have disclosure and transparency. and ultimately you have accountability and that's what we are looking for. >> and finally, can you tell us about lilian myers lewis who you really credited being your inspiration? >> she was a dear friend of mine and many people may not know her by name. she was the wife of john lewis who died before he did. you know i met her in 1992, very shortly after the clarence's hearing. she encouraged me to find my own voice and she let me know, have a platform that i had is an african-american woman to be able to talk about this issue and shed some lights on them as a lawyer and teacher was something that i should not take for granted. and so i believe that this book is really attributed to her. had i not had that conversation 30 years ago, i may have decided to go back to being a commercial law professor. the new book is "believing," our 30 years journey to end gender violence. >> anita hill, thank you so much for being with us. up next, a look of a report that does not consist an aircraft but this rules it out either. it's next on "morning joe." either it's next on "morning joe. as someone who resembles someone else, i appreciate that liberty mutual knows everyone's unique. that's why they customize your car insurance, so you only pay for what you need. oh, yeah. that's the spot. only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty, liberty, liberty, liberty ♪ with voltaren arthritis pain gel. my husband's got his moves back. an alternative to pills, voltaren is a non-steroidal anti-inflammatory gel for powerful arthritis pain relief. voltaren, the joy of movement. you get more with aarp medicare advantage plans from unitedhealthcare. like $0 copays on preventive dental care. ♪ wow! ♪ ♪ uh-huh. ♪ so go ahead. take advantage now. ♪ wow! ♪ ( ♪♪ ) what a pain in the... alice? if it's "let's wrap this up" season, it's walgreens season. with further answers are more questions. the "morning joe" team spoke with ufo believers and skeptics. . we came out this way because we do believe in aliens. >> we have seen a cite that looked like ufo. >> fact-checkers have said oh this is not real and now all of a sudden this is real? what else are you lying about? >> people would discount 95% of what they said. we had sonar and radar and took pictures of it. we are not making it up. we know there are more to it than nothing. i was briefed every week by the cia. the only information i have gotten that's not coming from china and russia or france. we need to be transparent and we need to put out to the american people of everything we know. that's what i am worried about. >> i study questions of the nature of life and universe, some of the most difficult phenomenal are those that's not easily reversible. the question is intriguing. as a scientist, what i really need is consistent and ideally what we would have is much higher fidelity and imaging data and ultrahigh definition and video for example, some kind of consistent monitoring of radio frequency, data all taken by the same kind of instruments. i think there are opportunities for the government to seek partnerships with universities and research communities that have not been informed yet. if this is really, the government itself would like to have an answer for for many researchers out there would be interested in trying to help. >> on one hand i can totally agree with putting out the report and pretending were starting. on the other hand it's kind of like, hey, we know a little bit of this and this is the path forward. this is video of 2019 that came through the system of being declassified. we know where it came from because of proper paper work. the problem is we don't know which one is fake or which one just leaked. this is the first time we had a title. the thing people have to realize that this ufo subject they're barely digesting and hearing about now has been going on for a long time. it's a serious, serious thing, this is not some new weird thing that our government is just now looking up and noticing. we had astronauts talking about it and the president talking about it all the way back in '40s. we have been dealing with this stuff for a long time. when the report comes out, is it the right thing to do? maybe. is it not being totally truthful? maybe. one of the things i have learned from working from all of my colleagues from the government was like we can keep a secret. everyone likes to run around and say we can't keep a secret, nothing is a secret, the government can't keep a secret. my guy says yes, we can and hell yeah we can and we do. >> hundreds of individuals, all the way up to having the ear of the president. data is always petition. you see it in the report, everyone inputting some data. what data did we input. intelligence organization and defense department creates machines that are identifiable. disinformation campaign are baked into any discussions of ufos. the best example is testing out of california deserts and the government needed to keep this a secret, we don't want it leaked and so what happens is the technicians go to a hollywood prop house, get a gorilla mask and having the test pilots flying around in the skies of the deserts of california wearing a gorilla mask and anyone sees that and tries to report that is proposperous. o report that is proposperous. full prescription-strength? 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(phone chimes) ♪ ♪ ♪ i jump up on the stage ♪ ♪ and do my money dance ♪ ♪ i throw some money up ♪ ♪ and watch the money land ♪ ♪ i do my, i do my i do my money dance ♪ move your student loan debt to sofi - you could save with low rates and no fees. earn a $500 bonus when you refi... and get your money right. ♪ i do my money dance ♪ it's another day. and anything could happen. it could be the day you welcome 1,200 guests and all their devices. or it could be the day there's a cyberthreat. only comcast business' secure network solutions give you the power of sd-wan and advanced security integrated on our activecore platform so you can control your network from anywhere, anytime. it's network management redefined. every day in business is a big day. we'll keep you ready for what's next. comcast business powering possibilities. welcome back to "morning joe," we hope everyone is having a wonderful holiday weekend. >> how are you feeling? >> i know we are on tape. >> we did it in july. >> did you feel bloated from all the stuffing? >> i ate this piece of paper. >> it's all salts. >> i love salts, i just carry it around with me in my pocket. nobody told me. >> this is how we are going to -- >> is that what you wanted? >> yes! >> are you so entertained? >> yes, i am so entertained. >> we need to watch "gladiator" for thanksgiving. >> no, we need to go outside and get exercised. >> this hour we'll continue to bring you some of the most memoriable. none more remarkable than this instant classic. our next guest written everything on adolescence to feminism to motherhood. some of her most moving pieces hit close to home describing her own battle with cancer. we are talking about the atlantic katelyn flanagan whose work we have been following for years. >> hey, it's a great honor to have katelyn flanagan with us. i think perhaps the greatest writer of the english language since shakespeare. thank you so much for being with us, katelyn, i appreciate it. >> after that sort of grumbling introduction, i don't know if i want to stay around but i guess i have to now a i am committed. thank you. that was extremely a nice thing to say. >> you have to because we need to talk about what we both share and that's addiction to twitter. rarely does he let you get close to it. i notice that you are on twitter right now. what's the status social media you called a pair site that burrows deep into your brain, training you to respond immediate feedback and of likes and tweets. >> you are addicted to this and you are always on it. we are trying to talk to you and you are on it and it's very embarrassing because i am almost 60 so you will think not just as middle age but an old person i would be immune to these dopamine hits. i realized that i have never been addicted to alcohol or gambling or any other things that i have good friends to go out on but this stupid thing at my advance age that i could not stop and i am back on right now that i can't stop now. i am about to have my son change my password again and go off a few weeks. everybody tells me, well, you just do it in a responsible way and have an hour or 15 minutes aday when you check in or post your work. that's what i am trying to say. i can't. i have known a lot of people who are addicted to substances in my life. it's the same thing. i am in l.a. and there is a thing called california sober when somebody going to rehabs in malibu or if they crash their car, they have to do something. they can have a little excellent champagne or some edibles or something. within three months they're back and in trouble again because with those kinds of substances, there is no half way. i seem to be a true twitter addict. i am really embarrassed. >> you are walking through that crack house of social media. it takes only a week or two, human psychology pathically simple to manipulate. you also said something that fascinates me. i think when i am on twitter regularly, it does the same thing to me. it did one thing i thought was not possible. it's still waiting for me. my whole thing in life is not good for me. they sit down and they write, it's the only thing i can do, read and often times good books and sometimes junk. reading is just the one thing. i grew up with real sports and all those things that would have annoyed me. i just found suddenly, are we in a post reading age. i sort of read into the end of the chapter and yeah, i get it. i see where this person is going. i realized and for a while are we in a post reading age and from the second my son changed my password, the second i felt a relief. i picked up a volume of history of california and each one was 400 pages and i picked it up and wandered in the backyard and time just fell away and i was immersed in this world. it was the volume of the 1950s which was so interesting. i realized i have not read this deeply and continuous before you are entering in the dream that the writer is dreaming and you are dreaming with the writer, i have not done that since i got hooked on the crack. >> let's go to twitter, something you have been talking about over the past month or so writing about and that is you battled with cancer and speaking of twitter, i had to immediately i read, i will tell you a secret about cancer and i tweeted the funniest thing you will read about cancer today because it was hilarious. all of this self-help nonsense. you must stay positive and you were talking about everybody coming at you when you got this devastating diagnoses and everybody is saying oh, you got to be happy and it took a while until you get to the right person who said you don't have to be happy. can you walk us through that? >> as people have been watching, i have had a very bad cancer diagnoses and i am incredibly lucky to be in l.a. where they have been doing researches. i am 18 years out. when you first get that diagnose when someone says you have cancer, particularly if you had no expectations and just a regular doctor's appointment, the shock is so intense. you don't realize how intense it is until you are through the shock period. the fear and the sorrow, it is and i would say it's the low point of your life and people come along and say it's time to get positive and it's not just as though of some helpful paradigm thing. it's a true body of belief if you don't have a positive attitude that chemo won't work and you won't be very long and you don't have a very good chance of surviving unless you develop a positive attitude. i remember my first two months going through heavy chemo, i got in despair over it because people keep on sending us these, they thought it would be helpful, they sent these books saying you must do this and do this. i was not upbeat before i got cancer and this has not lifted that crappy mood. i finally i was really lucky at ucla at one of a few places that had a sensor of dealing the emotional consequences of cancer and runs by a psychologist and i said i am so afraid because i can't get a positive attitude. she says katelyn, there is not a piece of literature, there is not one study, it never proven a positive attitude to cure cancer or help improve your survival rates. they study it all the time because people believe it so much. the few study that suggested could not be replicated. you can keep that crappy attitude, you know? i support you in solidarity. you can be cranky and angry and have a crap mood and i don't know if it will make the days so quickly doing chemo but i can promise you it's not going to affect your outcome with cancer. >> when people tell you that, joe, what they're saying is you caused your cancer because you didn't have the right attitude. you must have been despairing and unhappy and negative person which god knows and you caused it and therefore you deserved it and therefore you need to think your way out of it. and, it's a terrible thing and it's as cool thing to say to somebody and it's completely untrue. cancer is nothing more than some self-dividing in a malignant way. there is nothing more than that. >> and we have more from my conversation with the atlantic katelyn flanagan. wow, what a great guest. >> amazing. >> she's just amazing. we'll be right back. she's just. we'll be right back. ovens that flip up and away, grills that bring outdoor flavors indoors, and blenders that spin up healthy eating. ninja foodi, be proud of what you make. when it comes to autism, finding the right words can be tough. finding understanding doesn't have to be. together, we can create a kinder, more inclusive world for the millions of people on the autism spectrum. go to autismspeaks.org ♪ ♪ 'tis the season to break tradition in a cadillac. don't just put on a light show—be the light show. make your nights anything but silent. and ride in a sleigh that really slays. because in a cadillac, tradition is yours to define. so visit a cadillac showroom, and start celebrating today. ♪ ♪ so visit a cadillac showroom, and start 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time. gold. your strategic advantage. i am 58 myself and there are of things -- >> you are a child. >> what are you, 59? yes, i am a child. so there are many things i have learned through the years and i think one of the reasons why when i was reading about your journey about cancer and keeping it from your boys, why i teared up the moment you finally hnded them a book and explaining to them what was happening to their mommy, it reminded me while i was going through divorce, my wife and i kept telling the counselor we have young children, we can't tell them and we don't say the word. the counselor says, say divorce. not that mommy and daddy love each other and they can't live with each other. tell them you are getting a divorce. we can't say that. it will break their hearts. doctor says no, you are breaking their hearts now. you say the word divorce and nobody will disappear and everything will be okay. there will be actually all the tension that's been building up around them will actually dissipate. i started tearing up when you talked about the books that you bought and gave your sons and they ran outside excitedly and they started showing your neighbors. can you tell our friends about that. >> yeah, i have twins. i have to think on the way home on the home from the doctor was my boys, they need me. i came with this and as you said about divorce, i can't tell them my cancer. well, i have a bump and the doctor is going to take it off and he's going to give me a special medicine and it's a silly medicine that makes me lose my hair. a social worker said the next time they have to take tylenol they're going to think they're losing their hair and the next time they fell down and get a bump, they're going to think something happens and they have to go to the hospital. they know something's wrong in the household. when they're trying to put it all together and you tell them what it is. she gave me a book, a children's book, the kind you never want to show your children. it shows a little boy and his mom and she lost her hair and this was happening and sometimes she was tired and somebody would come over and take care of them and she got through her treatment and i thought my boys would just, i thought their childhood would end. the moment i got to the end, patrick grabbed the book and ran out the front door and knocked the door on the neighbor's house and showed them the book and he ran the other way. it was like finally he knew i am not the only person in the world that this has happened to. there is another mom and here is another little boy, they're doing fine. she looks like what my mom looks like now. she's in a scarf in scarf instead of having her hair down. with kids when they are little, they don't know the heartbreaking script. we know. we know oh that can be a heartbreaking reality, they don't know this script. they make up a story about it because they're always trying to figure it out and you know we think that our children are supposed to have - we think that's our responsibility and we think we are the one generation in all of history who can build a safe fence around our children's emotional lives. life is hard. kids are built with the same thing adults are as the incredible ability to survive and a deep need and ability to love. those things together get people through it and i am a big believer and telling an age appropriate truth, telling an age appropriate way and i am a big believer if they are small children, here is who's going to be taking care of you when i am not feeling well. they need to know that. be sure you are age appropriate and the kids need to know. it's happening. i had cancer and when you and your ex-wife getting divorce, you could not hide it. you may have let them to understand it with a children's book or with a certain tone. okay, all right, that's what's happening. mom and dad are not freaking out when they say it. the house is not blowing up or having a change. mom and dad are in control and i can tell they are calm and have a plan. that was about two months out and ever since then it got so much -- before they started wetting their beds again and they have going to their room and one of them would have cry to the other one's bed for comfort. as soon as they have that book and i would read it over to over to them. as soon as they have that, those behaviors stopped and those signs of stress were gone and anxiety were gone. i am a big believer in telling them the truth. small children don't need much when there is a crisis at home. they need accurate information of what's happening and they need to know who's going to take care of them as long as a crisis lasts. your heart is breaking but theirs may not be. they don't know the script and my josh, that could apply to so much, cancer, divorce, a loss job, so many different things. >> covid. >> different realities with covid. yeah, they don't see it as a heartbreaking thing, all they see is oh, mom and dad and maybe in separate household and together -- they have a plan for this. they know what to do about this. that's the stability they need. >> wait, there is more. up next, the conclusion of joe's touching conversation with the atlantic's katelyn flanagan, that's straight ahead on "morning joe." flanagan, that's straight ahead on "morning joe." with voltaren arthritis pain gel. my husband's got his moves back. an alternative to pills, voltaren is a non-steroidal anti-inflammatory gel for powerful arthritis pain relief. voltaren, the joy of movement. ray loves vacations. but his diabetes never seemed to take one. everything felt like a 'no'. everything. but then ray went from no to know. with freestyle libre 2, now he knows his glucose levels when he needs to. and... when he wants to. so ray... can be ray. take the mystery out of your glucose levels, and lower your a1c. now you know. try it for free. visit freestylelibre.us if you have this... consider adding this. an aarp medicare supplement 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cacalledhehe bars s filion and i d d soit was the best call coueouout hii could've made. call the barnes firm aand find out what your case all ccould be worth.uld've made. ♪ call one eight hundred, eight million ♪ i see it and i stop and very excited to read it. i think what you write really does makes such a difference and so i often not only look at what you write but think about why you write it and so when you started writing about cancer, i was wondering if you felt a need of responsibility to talk to other people that have been through the struggle and been through the battle that you been going through for so long and maybe give them some insights. is that is what moved you to do this? >> well, i always not want to write about it, i had a real fear but if i started writing about cancer that people would write me off as somebody to read or think about or maybe she's too ill and she won't be around or she's not someone to promote within the culture or whatever those ideas i used to have. my editor at the "atlantic," you must have known him. >> we know jeff and he's an absolutely terrible human being. we love jeff. >> could not be worse. you had this so long and you know a lot and why don't you write a series. it's a series and i suddenly realize i wrote the first one and i never gotten that much mail in my life about anything coming to my website of people telling me there is stories about what they have been told and how painful it had been that they have this certain attitude and the next one about how to talk with children and anything difficult. i had to admit despite my best intentions, i had done something useful and helpful and i felt that i do have, i have had it so long and i have been through so much and i felt so deeply when norm mcdonald died and it was his choice not to tell others except a few other people and i always respect people's choices. when i went back and heard the interviews, i heard the fear of his death. not telling more people would help, i wish he would have more support so there would have been, i am speaking and i don't know norm mcdonald, i just felt so close to him and finding out he had died that way. i thought yeah it's good for those of us who have those unwanted knowledge to share it and cancer is not the end of the world. my favorite thing he said because he did a lot of comedy around cancer and i never put it together in my mind that he must have cancer, i was like how does he knows these things. >> in my old days, yeah that old man died now, he lost his battle. there is no way to end your life, you know? what a loser that guy was. last thing he did was lose. i am not a doctor but i am pretty sure if the cancer dies, if you die, the cancer dies the same time. to me that's not a loss, it's a truce, you know? >> when i go, caitlin and cancer, each had respect for each other. >> it's like a soccer match. let me ask you about you grew up in california and there is another california native who's such a huge fan. you know you remind me of mika and mika would be sitting and talking and i will bring up china, oh, that reminds me when dun shao peng came to dinner. >> not him and certainly not who your father brought home for dinner one night. can you tell us that story? >> i was in ninth grade. she had been asked that, she was 32, maybe, she's been asked by my father to have this professorship which is to teach for a quarter she was extremely more nervous than usual. we got to get jones out there in hollywood and we got to get her back here. they did not know but anyway, she was hardly joan didion yet. we had writers in the house all the time. my father had an excellent sense, who was a writer and he said to me, cait, you need to be there for dinner, i think you will be interested by this young woman. i was entranced by her because she was so tiny and so articulated and all the things were true and i went to hear her speak a couple of times. i remember my father, what struck me about her was my father coming home and saying during that quarter, there is something weird going on with women. he said her office's hours in wheeler hall. these are not students. these are not necessarily young women that they have felt from that one slight collection of essays that this woman in some powerful way speaks to them and then i that summer read her collection, i was falling in love and there were all these pathways in my brain that i didn't know existed and that prolift them up. i was growing up in berkeley and she's from berkeley and susan santa, i didn't love her but i read her at a young age. you can be from a woman and be from california and you can be -- you can oconee subject you want and you can have total freedom, you can write about women's things and i always kept my eyes on joan. >> that was joe's conversation with the award winning writer katelyn flanagan. >> our next guest was once described as no one's ally. the conversation with the writer andrew sullivan, that 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voice for $64.99 per month with a 2-year price guarantee. give your business the gift of savings today. comcast business. powering possibilities. andrew sullivan. back with us the reverend al sharpton and senator claire mckaskill. i am so excited to have you on. andrew, i have been saying you are the most important writers of america certainly explaining the trump's era. he does not wake up early. we appreciate you waking up early and i just want to read the conclusion. i can see the whole thing. a review of your book was so beautiful. i want to read the last paragraph. he says read out on a limb. the snapshot of recent history, read it to understand the many journeys. most of all read this book to see what it looks like when a thoughtful man tries his best to tell the truth and let the chips fall where they may. and as he says andrew and it's the highest compliment and anyone can pay in this business, you enraged everyone because you are on no one's side. first of all, how much you have to pay for that wonderful review and secondly, seriously your thoughts on his view of your book. it's a beautiful piece. >> you do your best in your career and as you see it. you are honestly trying to get it right and you will get it wrong. in the book i have a whole essay of why i got wrong about iraq and i think that helps tell that it matters. don't look at this news cycle. look at the long-term, look at exactly how consistent a person is feeling and how earnest they are in correcting their own mistakes and subjecting themselves to certain amount of humility and in the faces extraordinary events that we can't understand what's happening and do our best to make sense of. i said all along at the end of iraq that iraq making fools of us all, many people opposed on iraq and opposed the surge of getting out immediately and which quickly and again but you can say that about your entire career and even the most brilliant among us. going out on that limb, fighting the good fight and sometimes getting it right but sometimes getting it terribly wrong. this sort of journey makes fools out of the brightest and best of us. of course, i speak of you. >> it does, many of us got several things wrong in the last 25 years and the consequences of that is with us today. the elites did screw up. if you regulate the economy 2008. people are not wrong to be angry. and to understand where the accountability is. unless we provide accountability people are going to go to someone like trump. i think that's what we have to do. it's easy and dangerous. i agree with people that trump is absolutely a threat to us. to lose sight of everything else and to get too fixated on that is like getting too fixated on defeating this virus as opposed to get back to our lives. that's the question. it's the big long perspective that you are hoping for. readers in the end, they get you. those who like you would like you. and the key is understanding what you do not know. when things emerge, we have a practical answer and we'll figure it out and now it's becoming a cull. >> andrew last night i was talking about a conversation i had with claire. >> this speed that we got this speed that we got were absolutely mesmerizing and still hard to believe how quickly things changed from 2004 when the bush administration was using it to pull people out against against marriage equality in 2013. what's your thought to someone considered the most influential thinkers on this? >> you can see in the first essay, i am not crazy, hold on. don't get too mad at me. here is an idea. and over the years you can see it gets slightly more attraction you want to get your messages across. engaging in fundamentalists and talking to your family. people took some time to come out. this is a triumph of democracy. we didn't yell at anyone. we try to find things we had in common with the majority and unite over that. we try to see we are members of family and wanted to rejoin our families. when you make that kind of good faith argument and you do it sincerely and you do it again and again. people in this country are prepared to change their minds and they change their minds and see it happening in my lifetime, i will never become pessimistic of this country. >> the speed was absolutely staggering and still hard to believe. in 2009, you start warning about the right, you start warning about even though you are a conservative or christian, you start sending out warning flares about where evangelical movement was moving and where the right was moving. let me ask, as a guy who grew up and has been concerned and similarly concerned. are you surprised how forward it moved in donald trump's direction and where it finds itself now in large part fighting vaccinations and medicines and fighting the protection of even their own family members. >> on the one hand i was not surprised and many of us failed to acknowledge how how much immigration policies affected people. we should have understood it better. america is a crazy place. i am from the outside. when you look at this country, things like having an entire bloody civil war. this country bans alcohol for everyone. this country is still alive and young. the idea that in a gridlock democracy that somebody would come along that would say i along can fix it and have the talent to persuade people and exploit people was always going to happen. we have a long way to rebuild that and america is a crazy place. the idea that a black president would be elected and reelected twice in this country. that's astonishing as donald trump. i just look forward to what america delivers next. this is where the future is actually made. yeah, i think the conservatives is starting to go off the rail in the '90s. i had a piece talking about the historical which is when i get off the train and it refused to acknowledge the arabs and iraq, believering that we as americans can torture people and we can double down and borrow money. we have to adjust on questions of immigration and trade and on those questions where the effects of the policies have really hurt people and also in terms of the liberals, this is not working right now. it's not working for most people. if you are a conservative, that should worry instead of defending capitalism. how can we reform it and making it popular and legitimate. i think tackling is also a caus. if you look at britain, where i'm from, the tories have managed to co-opt this right wing feeling and bring it into the existing institutions. that is what tories do. in this country, it is part of that explosion and have no control over it and until they get rid of trump, if they can, that is going to be the case. >> andrew, it is willie geist, congratulations on the book. i think one of the reasons you're writing and thinking has stood out but particularly in this moment is there are so few people willing to go out on a limb on what they write and say and what they think for fear so you get a lot of peoples people looking around wondering what the right thing to say is or virtual signaling on social media. so why in your assessment are there not more andrew sullivans, people willing to upset both sides in our political media culture right now. >> well because even i got fired last year. that the atmosphere in mainstream media and i'll say this with all seriousness, that's been so oppressive. the fear of offending someone is great and the threat of a honest mistake, a single statement that might be faulty and which their entire career is destroyed over this. there is a fanaticism in the newsroom that is chilling the discourse and preventing younger thinks to say what they think and encouraging everybody to uniformity. we should be able to argumentu and we should be able to argue without everybody's feelings be constantly wounded. we can't go forward if we don't have a certain amount of resilience, self-understanding. i remember eleanor roosevelt, no one could make you feel inferior without your consent. so don't consent. believe in yourself. fight because -- of that way. stop putting the own us on everyone around you and start building your life and explain what it is like to be a minority. it is not the worst thing in the world. it has wonderful joys to it. and some wonderful aspects to it. i want to get it out of this mentality in which everything is oppression, which if you look at it the other way around, everything is freedom too. and we can channel that freedom and i think we've lost our nerve because there are bullying and mobs and social media which made this all worse and i have decided i have to keep doing this, because if i don't, who will. i have enough cred at this point to be able to do it myself to encourage other people not to be afraid. it is okay to be wrong. just acknowledge it. it is a good thing sometimes because then you could get yourself right and i think over your lifetime you're constantly adjusting to changing circumstances. and the principles for me, at least, are don't do too much, keep government small, be prudent and encourage responsibility and very reagan-ite and i feel very much estranged from the world right now. >> andrew, al sharpton. i have read you down through the years and you have been controversial to some as someone who is never been controversial. i've admired you going out on the limb. but let me ask you this. the fact that i agree with you even on some of your attacks on what i call latte liberals on the left, on the right, how does cancel culture represent a real threat to our ability to grow and to really understand each other and in this country and not be canceled so immediately if you make one step or one move that can be interpreted in a way that ends your whole career. this whole cancel culure that we're dealing with now, how do you assess its danger? >> it is really dangerous. we're all human. we are going to make horrible mistakes. we're also going to be off moments human as well. the great thing that you and i share in our religious faith in christianity is forgiveness and redemption and that fuels the civil rights movement, this christian idea that we'll forgive the people that hate us and that will make us stronger and we could display our cause more and sometimes we've lost that sense. and the woke movement has no mercy. has no forgiveness and no redemption. it just condemns and ostracised. this happened in salem, with the lavender scare, americans have this moral panic capacity, like they did in the '90s with childcare if you remember. and i think we have to tone the zealotry down. say, look, come on, we're not hateful. we try to act in good faith. there are hateful people. but don't assume everyone on the other side are the worst of their kind. engage the argument. now sometimes engaging in the argument is going to hurt people's feelings and it may hurt them profoundly and in the piece, in the book i have a piece addressed to my old colleague tony coats, saying forgive me because i have raised some difficult issues and i'm sorry and i felt it was necessary to do it but i'ma human an i love you and i don't want to hurt you. and i did. and i think some of that is part of the necessity of being a journalist, that sometimes your principles can have real impact on your friendships. and i'm lucky to have great friends but i'm also aware of the cost of saying things that people really do not want to hear. >> leaving the set with a collection of haymakers to the upper jaw, the new collection is titled "out on a limb." andrew sullivan, it is great having you on. thank you so much. for what i need.nly pay how about a throwback? ♪ liberty, liberty, liberty, liberty ♪ only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty, liberty, liberty, liberty ♪ hi. so you're the scientist here. does my aveeno® daily moisturizer really make my dry skin healthier in one day? it's true jen. this prebiotic oat formula moisturizes to help prevent dry skin. impressive. aveeno® 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[coins clinking in jar] ♪ you can get it if you really want it, by jimmy cliff ♪ ♪ [suitcase closing] [gusts of wind] [gusts of wind] [ding] ♪♪ good morning, and welcome to a special edition of "morning joe." we're on tape this morning. after thanksgiving. we hope everyone had a great holiday and ate a lot of turkey. >> i know we did. >> you gained five pounds. >> just talking about it. >> and we have a number of our top conversations and interviews from the past few months. what are we starting with? >> let's begin with the recent reporting on the links donald trump loyaltyists went and their attempt to overturn the 2020 election. just after the january 6 attack on the capitol, some of donald trump's most loyal allies were working day and night from a command center. here is our conversation with the authors of one of the year's most highly anticipated books which took us through what was happening that day at the willard hotel. >> let's bring in pulitzer prize winning of "the washington post" bob woodward and robert costa, they co-authors of the book "peril." and bob woodward, you've seen a lot in washington, d.c. before, but just again, weeding through what happens the night before this insurrection against the united states government, is so chilling. and it shows just how premeditated that attack was. >> yes, it was all planned out in a key way. we found december 30th, this is a week before january 6, before the insurrection, they -- steve bannon and trump are talking on the phone and bannon is just stirring trump up, saying you've got to come back. this is the day of reckoning in a week. we need to get pence involved here. we need to get him off the f'ing ski slopes where they stashed him away and it is very active and you start interlacing with what happened at the willard hotel, that night, january 5th. my colleague, costa who always has the news knows and was there that night. >> well i was outside. in that the whole scene, i mean banging on the door. i wish i had banged a little harder on that door. because it was a freezing cold night. and i was roaming around and i still remember, we talked about it, because when you write a book it takes months to understand the context of what is happening and what actually happened but that nice was eerie because we didn't know at time that trump is over at the white house pounding into pence in that one-on-one oval office meeting and after it doesn't go well for trump, he calls into the willard war room and this is the key thing that we found for peril, that is not just a willard war room happening in an isolated away across the street, the president is calling in, trump is calling in, he's coordinating this effort to speak for pence, remember latte night as you detailed earlier, trump is issuing a statement saying pence will agree with me and he's taking over the vice presidency and this is all hours before the insurrection. >> and this is building a mechanism, bob woodward, for this attack and assault on the capitol. this is showing that it wasn't just trump rousing the crowd up and sort of the cult aspect of this. this is an actual as you guys put it like a war room. >> it is calculated. >> a calculated set of meetings. >> yes. and phone calls and agitation. of course there is no better agitator than steve bannon. and we talked recently with a republican, former republican head of the criminal division in the justice department who said there is a lay down case just in what we know, it's 18 u.s. code section 371, i'm sorry this sounds technical, but it is a law that said it is a crime to defraud the government in any deceptive way and that is exactly what they did here. >> and that is what we're trying to understand. what is next for merrick garland, the attorney general, there going to be a special council if congress can't force bannon to testify. a lot of unanswered questions about what else don't we know about trump's activity that night talking to bannon and giuliani and where do the lines cross. because remember at the same willard hotel you have a lot of proud boys and oath keepers out in the crowd. i saw that in the streets that night. >> joe. >> bob woodward, i've talked about this once or twice before, but in 2015 when we were talking to trump, i remember by we i'm talking about mika and myself and not you and trump and i remember going over to trump tower and there had been some incident at one of hissal rays and i remember trump saying, my god those people would kill for me. and when he said it, i looked closer and you know, it occurred to me as i walked out and i went back to office and talked to mika and i told her what he said and then i said i think he saw that as i positive thing. and told her how, you know, how frightening it was that -- and then you see this scene five years later where he knocks open the doors in the white house and the mob is chanting over at the willard, everybody is freezing inside and there is trump as you all write, just soaking it in. people shivering. he won't close the doors. because he loves the mob. he loves the mob violence. >> and i'm just not the mob and not just violence here, it is to as a purpose as we quote bannon in our book saying this is all designed to kill the biden presidency in the crib. this is a disruption of the function of government and if you get into the technicalities of this january 6 is so important, it is the only cog in the wheel where the government said this is going to be the next president. bannon and trump realized this is the point that they have to blow it up and that is exactly what they did. and so you can't run away from the consequences of what this was and you get john eastman in his memo, in his theory of the case here, and it really is let's make it up and one of the elements in 371 is knowing what you're saying is wrong and false and of course you've got eastman out there saying there are seven states with alternative lectors and there are zero when you look at it. and we spent months knocking -- >> go ahead. >> i'm curious to the code that bob woodward cited. who in this sort of scheme that you've uncovered, the actual events, the meeting at the willard, who is accountable beyond the man who holds the highest office in the land, president trump? i mean who could be held accountable in this type of thing, to that code that you cited? >> well, first of all, the law and the crime is two people conspiring, two or more, to defeat the purpose or the responsibility of the government here. and so you have trump and bannon. now trump is president at this moment. and i remember too vividly in 1974 when they have this problem with nixon, they made him an unindicted co-conspirator. so you have all of the participants in this. it is not that it is vague. it is very clear. let's kill -- i mean if we're going to have a democracy and we do you can't have one side the losing side in a presidential election saying now let's work and conspire and deceive. >> and that quote kill the biden presidency in the crib, this could sound swaggering and too much, but think about the intent behind it. they are working, giuliani, eastman and trump to push the election to the house of representatives where republicans will keep trump in power but if they can't achieve that goal by smearing the result or they want to make it impossible for biden to govern. >> what about mike pence, asking questions how he could make it happen for him. does that make him -- >> well there is all that pressure which we lay out. i mean -- >> we've done this together and it is interesting to see pence so torn. the conservative republican from indiana, the trump loyalist to his core. ultimately he realized and we don't say there are heros in this book, just people recognizing that there is a constitution of the united states and you can't go against it. >> you can't. jonathan lemire. >> -- he has been in the news, shall we see in recent weeks held in contempt of congress and now this possibility of criminal prosecution. we'll see in the coming days. so link up to this terrific reporting on the events of january 5th how that is unfolding on capitol hill right now and how do you see going forward if bannon will be in fact charged and what effect will that have if any on the trump movement as it starts to revive ahead of 2024. >> he's confirmed publicly, what we say if the book. and of course you don't know where it is going to go forward. but the elements are definitely here. somebody make a cold case that this is a criminal conspiracy and i mean just think, it is so important that trump/pence meeting in this period, where trump holds out the invitation to power. hey, mike, if -- won't it just feel great, wouldn't it be cool to have this power, to decide who the next president is and at this point pence will not play. but that -- it is in the constitution. it is the 12th amendment. it said the president of the senate, who is the vice president, we forget this, will look at the certificates of the states and count the votes. that is it. >> up nexter more from this conversation with bob woodward and robert costa. plus if someone asked to you write a memo on how to overthrow a country. >> a democracy. i would remember who that was. >> i could remember. because one key player is now having a tough time recalling. the correspondent who broke that story next on "morning joe." so they only pay for what they need. woooooooooooooo... we are not getting you a helicopter. only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ ♪ baby got back by sir mix-a-lot ♪ unlimited cashback match... only from discover. ray loves vacations. but his diabetes never seemed to take one. everything felt like a 'no'. everything. but then ray went from no to know. with freestyle libre 2, now he knows his glucose levels when he needs to. and... when he wants to. so ray... can be ray. take the mystery out of your glucose levels, and 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new phone. giving you a fast and easy experience that can save you hundreds a year on your wireless bill. visit your nearest xfinity store and see how the switch squad can help you switch and save. it's the xfinity black friday sales event. learn how to save up to $1000 on select phones by visitng your local xfinity store today. welcome back. we continue our conversation with the authors of one of this year's most talked about books of the administration of trump. and the new reporting just a few weeks back. >> we're back speaking live with bob woodward and robert costa. the shock and revelations from their new book are playing out right now in washington. and i'm just curious, for both of you, donald trump, you've reported how upset donald trump was with mike pence. also you report that he's very upset at ted cruz. cruz said they were going to object to arizona and called for an audit. that wasn't enough for trump. you could go into these details about how he was raging against everybody. >> so a lot of republicans in the final days of trump's presidency are saying hey we want to help you out, you have a lot of political capital, we're your allies and so we're going to take it to the tenth degree, we're going to object to some states and senator cruz said i'll propose a commission and we'll investigate and when pebs said i'm not going to do what you want and his crews over at the willard, he's making other calls, trump is, and saying else could be done and he called cruz on the night of the 5th and said object to everything and senator cruz based on our reporting goes, whoa, we're going to do what we plan to do but we're not going buck wild on january 6 objecting to everything. an this is just part of the story of trump getting more and more explosive as the night goes on. >> and at 1:00 a.m. trump is tweeting, you mike you can do this. all of these people are questioning what the states have formally said their vote is and there is nothing to support this, absolutely zero. and -- >> just to that point, there were noality not slates of electors in 2020. imagine in 2024 if republicans in the states are ready alternate slates of electors you could have a constitutional crisis and that is the real issue looming ahead. if the system in some ways manipulated where a legitimate election is not considered legitimate, and alternate slates are presented, how is congress and the system going to function in that kind of scenario. it is a gap like the possible -- in the system. >> so could you link together what happened the night of january 5th and trump's rage at the fact that nobody was willing to overturn the election on january 6 in congress and then the planning for the speech, the planning for the riot, bannon saying things were going to be crazy the next day. can you talk about the link between those two things and even rudy giuliani's call for combat justice. how much were bannon and giuliani and trump consciously planning for that crowd to go up, cause mayhem, and stop the counting of the constitutional quorum that the counts are counted and the vote is certified. >> there is nothing spontaneous about this at this point because they realize this is the alamo. this is the end. this is the last chance they have. and so they bring out everything they have got and we know a lot of it, we have a lot of it in the book, there is new reporting that people are bringing to this. and the interesting test is going to be what is going to provide us with the full story. can the january 6th committee in the house really do this and get to the bottom of it? and their working on it, but they don't have the strongest hand. >> and just real quick, we've connected in our book trump to the willard war room and those scenes are cited in the subpoena that has led to bannon's criminal contempt charm. but there is other great reportings going on out there, they're trying to piece together that answer to your question, joe, which is where are the other unanswered questions on the rally itself, the oath keepers, the proud boys, the march up pennsylvania avenue. we've focused on trump, what was he doing and who he was talking to and that links the president to the unrest that is then unfolding outside of the willard. but that is what the committee has to answer maybe even the doj. where do the lines cross from that war room with giuliani potentially, we don't know all of the facts, potentially to some of what happened at capitol in terms of the silence. >> well if you look at the statute, the federal statute for conspiracy to commit sedition, that linkage is critical between what we're hearing happening on january 5th and then the riots that happened on january 6. because if you're in a part of a conspiracy to stop the constitutional counting of the votes, of the electoral votes and the constitutional certification of the process, then a clear reading of the u.s. statute on conspiracy to commit sedition would mean anybody that was in the white house or anybody that was over at the willard in that so-called war room, that were conspiring to do that stop the count by this protest androt. it is clear the doj would need to look at that because they would be guilty or brought up on charges or should be brought up orn charges for being part of a conspiracy to commit sedition. just read the language of the statute. it is very clear. >> just to -- i'm sorry, but you've got to connect this. so two days later, january 8th, as we lay out in the book, this is when general milley, the chairman of the joint chiefs enters in and sees that the chinese are watching what is going on in the united states and they're worried the united states is going to collapse. and the iranians are worried about this, and the russians and they go on military alert and create this atmosphere of, you know, my god what could have happened. >> just incredible. >> so we discovered, you don't report on january 6th just that day, it is the days before and the weeks before also that time after january 6 and the realization in the world that america is on the brink. >> so adding to that, the trump legal adviser whose memo claimed former vice president mike pence has the authority to reject electoral college votes on january 6th, now insists that the memo doesn't represent his views. in two recent conversations with the national review,on eastman reportedly said that his memo describing pence as the ultimate arbiter of the votes was not viable and would be crazy to pursue. eastman claims the memo which he and eithers discussed during the stop the steal rally on january 6 was just a preliminary version. he told the national review, quote, i was asked to kind of outline how each of those scenarios would work. and then orally present my views on whether i thought they were valid or not. so that is what the memos did. he also told the outlet that someone else asked him to write the controversial memo but he can't recall who that was. joining us now, the washington constituent for the national review who wrote this story, john mccormick. who could have it been that you can't recall and tell us what eastman said in the memo versus what eastman said he said. >> well he said it was somebody on the legal team but he can't remember who it was because he had so many phone calls. he remembers the date, it was christmas eve but he doesn't know who it was. that is what he said. so what is not in dispute is that eastman and trump on stage on january 6, they called for pence quite publicly to not count the votes to flout the federal law governing the counting and delay it and gives the states seven to ten days to investigate the voting machines an changing votes so who was pushing this idea that pence had the ultimately authority, someone say the near dictatorial and declare trump the winner or toss the election of the house. so eastman now tells me this is not a viable strategy and it is crazy to think it would have been viable because republicans just won't have held firm and that is i think that is obviously correct. liz cheney is the sole vote for wyoming. in wisconsin only two of the eight objected to electoral college votes. so to would have never gotten there in the first place. no one knows what would have happened if pence tried to claim authority to try to do either of these things. one said the supreme court may have weighed in and the senate may have overruled pence and pelosi would adjourn and wait until he was no longer vice president but we don't know what would have happened so that is why this could have been so chaotic and such a -- >> what are the consequences, if any, that he's facing for this memo? >> i believe there are now discussions of possible disbarment in california. >> so what about alternate slates of electors. how does he defend that idea of alternate slates of electors being out there in the states where their clearly not. >> i pressed him on this. not only was there not a set of alternate slate of electors, there wasn't any majority that was requesting this delay. he said well there were a handful of state legislators, i think the majority of the pennsylvania senate that were asking for this. but again, there was no majority whatsoever in any site that wanted this. and he said there were a handful and claims of voter fraud and he's a smart legal scholar who has gone down this rabbit hole of trutherism and believes this stuff. >> and to press that point further, so essentially the memo in the further conversations you with had with him about trying to delay everything so alternate slates could somehow be cobbled together in the states and then trump could win in the house. >> that was his final position. that the memo lays out. if there is enough, if voter proud is proven in seven to day days and so in the first he said yes, he was preliminary and asked to write if this theory plays out, how would you it play out. but if you look at texts or the memo, it said we propose this scenario and pence does have this authority and you get no sense this is him tossing out one idea. >> so we're deep into the weeds of what isp hag here. bob woodward, how would you assess and describe what was happening leading up to not only the assault on the capitol, but this attempt to sort of change the outcome? >> i mean, it is -- it's exactly the deceptive practices that the law said would be a crime for somebody to conspire -- i mean they're all working together. it is not straight. and we know it is not straight. we knew when we put -- wrote the book and put it together, that there is something here that just resonates, smells of fraud. and if we're going to have a system where the losing candidate can come in and say, oh, wait a minute, fraud here, we've go to delay the process, and if that losing candidate can win people over in the states to actually implement the deception, come up with, as robert says, the alternative slates, what do we have? >> right. >> this is all built into the constitution on one statement in the 12th amendment. and there is nothing else to back it up really except the electoral count law which is from 1887. so, there is work to be done in terms of understanding what happened and also what is the remedy as robert said, who happens in 2024? got to try to fix it before that happens. >> joe mccormick, final thoughts, does this go from here? >> i think there are a lot of still unanswered questions, i don't know how far the committee will get in getting answers from them. >> washington correspondent for the national review. thank you very much. and bob woodward and robert costa, thank you both as well. the new book, of course is "peril." and still ahead, long before the me-too movement, anita hill was leading the charge against sexual harassment. my conversation with the long-time advocate is next on "morning joe." 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>> well, it is easier to define by talking and saying what i'm talking about, actually. you know, i'm talking about intimate partner violence, i'm talking about some forms of incest, talking about sexual harassment, sexual assault and rape. and it is a big category. i hesitate to list because i know that i'm going to miss something. but what the main point is that what i'm talking about is that it is violence, really directed at individuals because of their gender. >> and it includes sexual harassment in that? >> absolutely, it does include sexual harassment, of course that is where i started with this issue. but as i was hearing from people from all over and including men, i realized that sexual harassment was really only one component, that gender violence is a range of behaviors. and it has tremendous impact, just because of that alone, the whole range that it covers. >> tell me about the title "believing", and that is a powerful title and think it is very timely. can you talk about why you entitled the book "believing". >> well the book is about my journey and the journey of this entire country as we look at the issue of gender violence. specifically it is believing that we deserve to do better. believing that, you know, we can do better. that we could solve this problem. that we could change our ways. and that we could acknowledge that this is a crisis level problem that is impacting all of us. not just the direct victims and survivors, but it impacts our families, it impacts our neighborhoods, it impacts our nation. >> where do you think we stand in terms of addressing the issue of sexual harassment in the workplace? and especially as it pertains to equality, equal pay? >> well, we know that 50% of women say that they have been harassed in the workplace. and we also know that 50% of those women who have been harassed will either leave their job or change jobs or even change entire careers because of the problem. and so what we -- we've only really begun to address the issue. one of the things that as a lawyer, as a scholar and also as a lawyer, associated with a law firm, is that we can do a lot with the laws and with court cases but unfortunately we can't do everything to make the change. the problem is not only a legal problem, we know that many, many times civil as well as the criminal system really fails individuals who come forward. but we also know that it is a cultural problem. >> where does due process stand in the concept of trying to make headway in the issue of sexual harassment because i feel like in the me-too age, it is almost become a dirty word. but yet in law there are limits to what the law can do. correct? >> well, absolutely. but let me just step back for a minute. what we have still in even with the law that we have, we still have comments that are gender slurs, that are misogynist comments, we have touching that is going on in our workplaces. and we have courts that when they hear claims about this behavior, you know they determine that these are just stray remarks and it is nothing that the law can do about it. we need to fix that problem. that is not an issue. it doesn't have anything to do with due process. our systems are actually set up to protect everyone's rights whether it is our criminal justice system, or our civil system. there are rules in places to protect everybody's right and there should be. but we are not doing enough, frankly, to protect individuals. and we're not doing enough in terms of our processes and polies and procedures to bring people into the systems that could get them help. >> right. and i think that is a really, really, really great point. protecting and being able to use your voice, protecting being able to speak out. making women feel like they can without any type of retribution. >> and retaliation is a huge problem. over 60% of the people who complain about sexual harassment will face retaliation. now, what we are talking about is people just wanting to do their jobs. when we talk about workplace harassment, we're really talking about people wanting to do their jobs. trying to do their jobs. but being, you know, kept from doing their jobs because of this behavior. but, again, that is only one aspect of what i deal with in "believing." what i want to do is to help us understand sexual harassment and my experience really connected with the experiences of so many different people. different kinds of behavior. for example, one of the first calls that i got that helped me recognize that it was a call from a man who have been an incest victim and what he told me was that the way that the senate responded to my complaint was very much the way that his family had responded when he had complained about incest that he was experiencing. and so that connection is there. and if we don't really address all of the problem, i don't think we're ever going to get at any one specific kind of behavior. we have to go to its roots. >> as a good example of moving forward, the cuomo investigation, how do you feel that -- how do you feel that went? >> i think that's a perfect example of what i'm talking about. what we have is letitia james who ran what i perceived to be an seems on its face in all of the paperwork to be n independent investigation into the charges that were brought against then governor cuomo. she had witnesses come in from both sides, both parties, she detailed her investigation, she detailed the standards, she articulated exactly what was said, why she reached the conclusions that she did, and she made a very public announcement about it. and i think that did away with so many of these claims that you hear after public charges are made, like, you know, you hear people say it is just he said/she said. no, what you have is not only a full investigation in the cuomo case, but you also have a full report, you have disclosure and transparency and that is -- and ultimately you have accountability and that is what we're looking for. >> and finally, can you tell us about lillian myles lewis who in your preface you credit with being your inspiration. >> well, you know, she was a dear friend of mind. and many people may not know her by name but she was the wife of john lewis who died before he did. but, i met her in 1992, very shortly after the clarence thomas hearing and what she encouraged me to do was to find my own voice. she encouraged me to have a platform that i had as an african-american women to be able to talk about these issues and to shed some light on them as an african-american woman, as a lawyer, as a teacher, was something that i should not take for granted. and so i believe that this book is really a tribute to her because had i not had that conversation 30 years ago i might have just decided to go back being a commercial law professor. >> the new book is "believing, our 30 year journey to end gender violence." aanita hill, thank you for being on with us. >> thank you for having me. >> and up next, a look into the pentagon's first ever report that doesn't confirm the existence of alien spacecraft. but does it rule them out either? 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what else are you guying -- guys lying about? >> a big object shaped like a football, as long as a football field flying around by the ship and then landed in the water. it used to be we could see things and report them and discount 95% of what was said, but with this incident, it was a sonar, we had sonar, radar, we took pictures of it. it is not as if we're making it up. so we know there's more to it than nothing. i was briefed every week by the cia, all of the information that i had gotten, it is not coming from china, from russia, from france, it is something that we don't know where it is coming from. for the security of our nation, for the development of technology, we need to stay on top of this. right now i'm disappointed. the report will be out from congress, we need to be transparent, we need to be able to put out to the american people everything that we know. we can say if there is no evidence coming from some place else but if it were, the american people can accept that, but what they can't accept is trying to hide something and that's what i'm worried about. >> the director asstrollology. and some of the most different items to study are not easily reproducible. the question of ufos or uaps is intrigues but as a scientist what i really need is consistent data. ideally what we would have is much higher fidelity imaging data, ultra high i definition video, some kind of consistent monitoring of radio frequencies, in other words data all taken by the same kind of sect of instruments. i think there are definitely opportunities for the government to seek partnerships with universities, with the research community, that haven't been formed yet. if this is really a question that demands an answer, the government itself would like to have an answer for. there are many researchers out there who would be interested in trying to help. >> on one hand i can totally agree with putting out the report and pretending we're just starting but on the other hand we should come out and say we know a bit about this and this is the path forward. these videos from 2019 that were, that came through the system, of being declassified, we know, you know, where those came from. because of the proper paperwork. there's a lot of amazing videos of ufos out there. the problem is we don't know which ones are faked or just leaked, so this is the first time that we actually have a chain of title. the thing that people have to realize is that this ufo subject that they're barely digesting and barely hearing about right now has been going on for a very long time. our government knows a held of a lot more about it than they're letting on. it is a serious, serious thing. this is not some new weird thing that our government is just now looking up and noticing, you know, we have astronauts talking about it, we have presidents talking about it, the cia, the joint chiefs of staff talking about it all the way back to the 40s and we have been looking into this stuff for a long time so when a uap report comes out is it the right thing to do? maybe. is it being not totally truthful? maybe. one of the things i learned from working with all of my colleagues from the government is we can keep a secret. everyone likes to run around and say we can't keep a secret. nothing is a secret. the government can't keep a secret. my guys say yes, we can. held yeah, we can. and we do. >> so from my experience of interviewing now hundreds of individuals in the military and intelligence community, very high-ranking, all the way up to being, having the ear of the president, what i know more than anything is that data is always partitioned. we see that in the uap report. it's like everyone inputted some data, but what data did they input? we know from history that intelligence organizations, defense departments, create air machines that are unidentifiable. they are designed to be that way. disinformation campaigns are kind of baked into discussion of ufology and need to be considered and the best example would be world war ii era testing out in the california desert, the movement from planes that flew with propellers to jet engine, the government needs to keep this secret, we can't get it leaked and the hollywoods go to a prop house and get a grl la house and having the pilots fly around in the first jet aircraft being tested in the skies above the desert in california wearing a gorilla mask. anyone who sees that and tries to report, that i mean it's preposterous, they would be laughed out of the bar and that's exactly what happened. as a dj, i know all about customization. that's why i love liberty mutual. they customize my car insurance, so i only pay for what i need. how about a throwback? 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[thud] [clunk] [ding] ugh... hi there. i hope you all had a great thanksgiving, live at msnbc headquarters here in new york city, it is november 26th, black friday. and we have a lot to get to. we begin this hour with the latest on that dangerous heavily mutated covid strain stoking new fears from health experts around the globe. the variant was first detected in south africa in what is called the most significant variant we have had to date. the world health organization is holding an emergency

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