significant subpoenas by the january 6th select committee showing a clear determination on their part to march swiftly towards justice for the individuals and forces behind those. the leaders who played a role in the violence on that day in what appears to be premeditation of those events. the proud boys, the oath keepers and its president, and the first amendment and its chairman, robert patrick lewis. that's an organization that provided security at multiple rallies leading up to january 6th that amplified the president's baseless claim that the election was stolen. bennie thompson sums it up, quote, the select committee seeking information from individuals and organizations reportedly involved with the planning of the attack with the violent mob that stormed the capitol on january 6th or with efforts to overturn the results. we believe the organizations we subpoenaed today have relevant information about how violence erupted at the capitol and the preparation leading up to this violent attack. and of course, open questions remain about the level of coordination between these organizations and their leaders and folks close to the president and the president himself and why those connections are not known to us at this point. we have clear evidence of the ex-president's instructions to at least one of the groups indicted today and how those instructions were received by the group. here was trump in september to the proud boys. >> you want to call them, what do you want to call them? give me a name. >> white supremacists. >> proud boys. >> proud boy, stand back and stand by, but i'll tell you what, i'll tell you what. somebody's got to do something about antifa and the left because this is not a right wing problem -- >> stand back and stand by. as trump and his allies try to frame that as a halfhearted attempt to ask the group to stand down, not stand by, the militias heard him loud and clear. here's proud boys chairman after being name checked by the president. so proud of my guys right now, standing by proud boys. lot of exclamation points. i will stand down, sir. that is of course before they showed up by the dozens on january 6th. the breaking news is where we start today with some favorite reporters and friends. luke is here. also joining us, msnbc legal analyst and former u.s. attorney, joyce vance. former rnc chairman and former lieutenant governor of maryland, michael steel is here and christopher goldsmith joins us. an iraq war veteran who monitors domestic extremism and national security issues. luke, i start with you. the january 6 committee members are not brining turkeys. they are pumping out subpoenas this week in a forceful display, i will read from some of these letters, but it is clear they know a lot about a lot. >> yes, i think if you put these two days of subpoenas together, you get two more pieces to the puzzle we're building of what is either a few separate conspiracies that all come together or one giant conspiracy. what they're trying to do with this last one is perhaps the most important part because it get to the actual violence that engulfs the capitol on january 6th. we now have subpoenas out for the proud boys, the oath keepers and the first amendment tra torian. we know members of those groups have been indicted, charged with violent acts at the capitol on january 6th. we also know members of those groups have connections, ties to associations, meetings, conversations with close allies to president trump. so what the committee hopes to get out of these documents and out of these interviews if they can compel these militia groups to come in and submit to interviews is exactly who was telling them what to do, who were they getting their instructions from and who was giving them their guidance and they hope that that will solve a big, unanswered question here in the, in what happened on january 6th. >> i want to turn to joyce about something you just said. i mean, 34 individuals associated with the proud boys have been indicted by doj and all of them are working on lenient sentences. so we don't know what we don't know in terms of what has been disclosed by them, but i want to come back to you, quickly, luke, because you have done the definitive piece of reporting on extremist groups and their ties to trump's allies. folks like roger stone and his closest members in congress. what jumps out to you from the perspective of having done that reporting about these groups and their role of providing security or the role of republicans appearing at some of their events in this batch today? >> well, i mean, just let's take the example of stewart rhodes, the president of the oath keepers. this is a man who called for john mccain to be hung. he has a long history of violent rhetoric. the build up to january 6th, he makes numerous public statements in which he is talking directly to allies of mr. trump and is encouraging what almost anybody would believe to be sort of violent rhetoric. he tell, he goes on alex jones' radio show and says democrats are trying to steal the election and he promises to put oath keepers out at the polls to help mr. trump. he later says that he has oath keepers standing by in d.c. he's at the capitol on the day of the attack. he's in contact with people who have been arrested before, during, and after the attack. so we just saw a subpoena come out for alex jones just recently. he says that someone from the white house told him to lead a march on the capitol two days or three days before january 6th. so you can start to see how stewart rhodes is talking to alex jones. alex jones is talking to somebody at the white house. you can see why the committee is very interested in getting his testimony. >> i want to make sure you meant mike pence. talking about hanging mike pence. not john mccain, right? >> oh, no. stewart rhodes called for john mccain to be hanged as well. some years ago, but yeah, he -- before john mccain died, stewart rhodes had an event in arizona. andy biggs was the head of the freedom caucus is there with him and he was angry over something that escapes memory at this point, but he said he should be hung by the neck until dead. this dates back a while. obviously we saw it, the thing with some of these groups is for years, they've been saying violent things and nothing came of it. and so now finally on january 6th, when something does come of it, all of a sudden, you look back at all these things in the path and you say why weren't people paying closer attention? so i think that, and certainly in the build up to january 6th, where you have numerous public statements of violent rhetoric, that seems very clear now in retrospect. >> so i want to put a pin in the criminal investigation because it is worth noting that the select committee made a point of presenting this in the letter. that 18 oath keepers have been indicted for the conspiracy and stewart rhodes is person one in those indictments, but i just want to underscore this call to violence and how it circulated and how it swirled around donald trump with you, chris. this is from the letter to elmer stewart rhodes from the 1/6 committee. on november 10th, 2020, days after the presidential election, you encouraged oath keepers to gather for the november 14th, 2,020 million maga march in washington, d.c., stating quote, our men will be standing by, awaiting the president's orders to call us up at the militia which would override d.c.'s ridiculous gun laws and quote, oath keepers will have some of the most skilled warfare veterans standing by armed just outside of d.c., end quote. that same post sought to encourage attendance by recalling when serbians overthrew their own government. under the header, you quoted a patriot from serbia. millions gathered in our capitol. no barriers strong enough to stop them nor police determined enough to stop them. police and military aligned with the people after a few hours of fistfight. we stormed the parliament and burned down state fake television. we won. i want to put up a video of what happened on january 6th. this is the described right here, november 10th. the hand to hand combat. their models were in serbia. this is what the assailants, the insurrectionists did to the capitol police. this is new video released by doj yesterday. this is exactly what was planned and communicated to donald trump supporters and the militias who understood that their commander in chief would quote, override d.c.'s ridiculous antigun laws. my question to you chris, is do these members believe they were operating in some parallel par military and that donald trump was the commander in chief? >> yes. in a word, yes. these people are completely delusional. they -- >> chris has frozen up on, we're going to get him back. michael, i want to come to you. when you listen to and we try to without amplifying the rhetoric on the right, we try to monitor it an cover it as it intersects with the threat to the homeland but when you see the picture on january 6th of what they did, we should no longer be surprised that they did exactly what they believed donald trump wanted them to do. >> yeah, and i think something that luke said should not get lost in this conversation because it is the predicate for everything in how we move forward when he, you know, touched on the point that people asking a question, you know, why weren't we paying attention to this? how did we miss this? and that's because we did not take it seriously. we did not think that this type of activity would lead to the level of violence that we saw because in the past, even when you go back to the infestation of the john birch society inside the gop, you had republican leaders who excised that scourge. who did their level best to clarify for the public what we were, what we weren't, what we believed, and they tied it to the underpinning of our democracy. donald trump came in and snipped all those cords. he, and then tied them to himself. so these individuals began to buy into the lunacy that he was commanding them to be the united states militia that he would call up if despite the district of columbia role in such matters et cetera. didn't matter to them. so it really does boil down to what we've missed so now we know what we've missed, what are we prepared to focus on? i think that's what the january 6th commission is really trying to hone in on. not just by the subpoenas, but by the aggressiveness of it to show that know, we're ready to fight back on this and reattach those cords. those bands that bind up together to our constitution in this democracy. >> well, there are parallels to the work of the 9/11 commission. i mean, i remember reading that report and it is narrative in a way that these are now so narrative. let me read from this letter. this subpoena for mr. rhodes, this section about the indictments and ask you what they're probing at that is separate. according to press reports, you are the individual referred to as person one in the indictment involving 18 oath keepers. the indictment explains that you were in direct contact with several of these members before, during, and shortly after the attack on the capitol. moments after the attack, you gathered 100 feet from the capitol with the oath keepers members who had just breached the building. just gone inside. and written and spoken remarks delivered prior to january 6th, 2021, suggested that the oath keepers should or were prepared to engage in violence to ensure their preferred election outcome. on election day, you declared that a quote, honest election, could only result in a win for trump, called for oath keepers to operate as undercover poll watchers and encouraged your members to stock up on ammo. what they meant is one part of the probe, but what was heard by the oath keepers is being very clearly established by the 1/6 commission. >> these letters that the committee is sending out goes far beyond what we normally see in subpoenas. this is i think become a way that the committee is trying to communicate just how much it knows and precisely where it's headed both to the targets of their subpoena, but also more generally to the public. so this is beginning to look like the search for connective tissue. it's fascinating we've seen on back-to-back days subpoenas sent to people around the president. literally around the president. people who were involved in communications over these rallies at a very high level and now today, we see subpoenas going out to three of the largest white supremacists groups who were involved. all groups with violent ideation. all groups to some extent harken back to the turner diaries, the sort of formative documents for these violent groups that has a very violent and hateful vision for the future of america. that connective tissue exists. the question is what did it look like in advance of january 6th and on that day? were these groups part of a larger conspiracy? are there separate conspiracies? what was communicated to the white house? what caused some of these people who were involved in organizing the rally and with the women's groups involved in organizing the rally to develop a concern about violence that was so pressing that they decided there was a need to communicate directly at least with mark meadows, the chief of staff. so the committee is clearly intent on telling the american people the truth in a way that will be deeply satisfying. we are all to some extent dissatisfied by what's going on at doj. either because they're running a very strong, opaque investigation. you know, whatever they're doing, we don't know. maybe they're not looking at this. maybe they are, but that absence of transparency i think has been very frustrating for people who feel threatened by the ongoing risk to the country and want to know that something is being done. now we're seeing something being done. >> chris is back with us. we lost you, but i want to understand what you understand from watching communications among these groups, among themselves. and to rally more members to their cause and i want to read a little bit more from the subpoena for henry enrique tario. it says this. indictments returned by a federal grand jury in washington, d.c. indicate on december 19th, an event was announced for january 6th. on december 29, you posted the follow. we will not been wearing our traditional black and yellow. we'll be incognito and spread across washington, d.c. in smaller teams. who knows. we might dress in all black. you were arrested for the burning of a black lives matter banner and barred from entering. though you were prohibited from -- have been indicted by doj in relation to the attack on the u.s. capitol. certain indictments returned against proud boys members describe prior planning and coordination including efforts to fund raise for protective gear and communications. further more, video evidence demonstrates proud boys members were involved in the attack. he wasn't even there. he wasn't supposed to be there. he is being examined and subpoenaed solely for his role prior to january 6, organizing, planning and inciting. explain how much of that was going on. >> so, after the election, i was doing things that some other veterans were doing and joining these extremist organizations. now i was joining them because i wanted to know what they were planning. and i joined the three percenters and during the screening, using basically my real profile as an iraq veteran as background, they're asking me questions about my weapon system, my secondary meaning my handgun, how i was prepared too to use it, what i would do in different tactical scenarios. they specifically asked, and i made recordings because these people are idiots, they were explicitly asking would you kill someone from antifa or black lives matter. this wasn't an anomaly. i recorded another session from one joining for their reasons the day prior. and these are what my threat intelligence reports look like in november. ahead of this january 6th insurrection. there were other folks, you know, we've seen alexander, alex jones get targeted by the january 6th committee. what we haven't seen is nick fuentes and the america first pact who were literally riding in an armored fake humvee all around the country and practicing these insurrections at state capitals trying to intimidate members of those local legislators and governors to overturn the election. what we saw on january 6th was again, it was not a one-time event. it was not an anomaly that came out of nowhere. these folks planned it out in the open. before they all got kicked off facebook, like, the average person could get in there without doing any of the, you know, without having to pretend to be a neonazi like veterans like myself do to get close to these folks. what i'm looking forward to is more civil suits like we saw out of the the unite the right rally. the jury decided to hold something like $12 million against these folks. it's going to bankrupt the neo nazis. i'm saying it's our make a nazi cry segment. i'm super excited for everything that's going on today. >> let me just follow up on a couple of things you said. they asked you because they thought you were submitting yourself to be a participant and was it the oath keepers or the three percenters? >> division of the three percenters. there's all of these groups, while stewart rhodes or elmer stewart rhodes, these guys never use their real names. may run the oath keepers in a national setting, groups like the three percenters, all it takes is somebody sees a patch at a gun shop, buys it, it says three percent. oh, i've got a three percent chapter. then they go on facebook or telegram and create their own local chapters. there are highly centralized versions of these organizations. there are also like state level or local chapters, so what i joined was one out of georgia which in the past had been the largest and most active militia in the united states. and thanks to infiltrators like myself who you know, report them to their internet service providers and their website hosts, they keep getting basically starting at square one. so my goal and organizations like we the veterans and veterans for american ideals of human rights are to knock these people off center. they have gone unopposed for years. they've been talking about the violence out in the open and nobody's done anything. well now it's time to engage these people and you know, i'm not going to go out in the street with a weapon dressing like i, you know, did in iraq, because i'm not an idiot. i can do all this from my home and other veterans who are interested, i would encourage them to do the same. what we want to do is make these groups so paranoid that they can't function. i've been pretty successful at that. i've taken down a couple of hate groups just by myself. and if we see more vets doing this, i think it's going to be a great movement and you know, vets, we protect democracy. the oath keepers, they're not keeping any oath. it's folks like me engaging in this work who are really taking our oath to the country seriously and serving and protecting our democracy in a tangible way. >> i guess i need to know then how this was planned out in the open. violence and conversations about what weapons would be used and the belief that they were doing what the president wanted them to do. how did that all go undetected di law enforcement if it was so clear to folks like yourself? >> law enforcement has been convincing themselves that these people have a first amendment right and they have been basically made afraid. and especially with the trump administration and bill barr's department of the justice. law enforcement was afraid to watch these folks like i did. i'm not a law enforcement official. i can go and buddy up to these people online. make a fake profile. a fake gab account. and just copy and paste repeat their rhetoric so they think i'm one of them then you know, a few days go by of silence and the next thing you know, there are conversations that i recorded. handed off to anti-fascist activists on twitter who will make sure to impose economic and social costs on these folks because the reality is you don't want an oath keeper who is willing to take up arms and kill americans working at your duncan donuts. you want to make sure that person is not able to function in our society as they quietly go about trying to undermine democracy and plan to kill americans. you know, again, a lot of folks talk about hyperbolic terms, especially in the trump era. there's no both sidesism to stockpiling arms and planning to kill americans. like that is an exclusively far right thing and elmer stewart rhodes of oath keepers is a huge part of convincing veterans who are in vulnerable positions because of their service in iraq and afghanistan to join. you know, the guy has a degree from yale law school, which to my knowledge, has not been rescinded yet. i was 21 when i got out of the military. was in really rough shape. when i was running into people like the oath keepers, they, you know, they were looking for folks like me. i'm just going to trust the guy with the yale law degree. >> thank you for adding and i mean this in all the right ways, your firsthand knowledge of what these groups are really like. really grateful to call on you. there's much more on today's breaking news. don't go anywhere. news. don't go anywhere. are you taking a statin drug to reduce cholesterol? it can also deplete your coq10 levels. i recommend considering qunol coq10 along with your statin medication. the brand i trust is qunol. ♪ my songs know what you did in the dark ♪ ♪ so light 'em up, up, up light 'em up, up, up ♪ ♪ light 'em up, up, up ♪ ♪ i'm on fire ♪ ♪ so light 'em up, up, up light 'em... ♪ ♪ ♪ there are beautiful ideas that remain in the dark. but with our new multi-cloud experience, you have the flexibility you need to unveil them to the world. ♪ [gaming sounds] [gaming sounds] [gaming sounds] just think, he'll be driving for real soon. every new chevy equinox comes standard with chevy safety assist, including automatic emergency braking. find new peace of mind. find new roads. chevrolet. small businesses like yours make gift-giving possible. find new roads. now, comcast business has an exclusive gift for you. introducing the gift of savings sale. for a limited time, ask how to get a great deal for your business. and get up to a $500 prepaid card with select bundles when you switch to the network that can deliver gig speeds to the most businesses. or get started with internet and voice for $64.99 per month with a 2-year price guarantee. give your business the gift of savings today. comcast business. powering possibilities. extremism specifically on the sort that advocates for the superiority of the white race is a persistent, evolving threat. it's the biggest chunk of our cases for sure. and racially motivated violent extremism is the big u.s. chunk of our domestic terrorism portfolio. the same group of people we're talking about have been responsible for the most lethal attacks over the last say decade. >> and many of those groups also being subpoenaed today by the 1/6 select committee. the chairman writing this, quote, the chairman is seeking information from individuals and organizations reportedly involved with planning the attack with the mob who stormed the capitol or with efforts to overturn the results of the election. joining our coverage, gerry connolly of virginia. one of our earliest conversations, congressman, after january 6th, was the sense and this clarity that you had about a conspiracy that had taken place and it sounded like a plausible theory, but i couldn't see all the pieces. this batch of subpoenas makes clear that what the 1/6 committee is piecing together is clearly a conspiracy of state actors, government actors, extremist groups and donald trump's campaign operatives. tell me how you see this coming together and if you still believe in a theory of a conspiracy to overturn the will of the american voter in 2020. >> i do, nicolle. that doesn't mean that everybody involved was involved in a conspiracy, but no question that was planned in advance. no question far right extremist white supremacist fascist groups planned to do something violent on january 6 at the nation's capitol. they came equipped with you know, scaling ladders. with plastic cuff links, sorry -- >> zip ties. >> yeah, zip ties, thank you. zip ties. and you know, that's not a spontaneous demonstration. that's something planned in advance. we know from e-mail traffic on social media prior to that, they actually made no secret of their intentions. when meadows says these subpoenas are unprecedented, someone needs to remind him so was january 6th. an insurrection on the nation's capitol is unprecedented. >> this batch includes all of the calls for violence. i want to read some to you. this is a letter and a subpoena for robert patrick lewis. it says this, the first amendment pra tor yam provided security to the million maga march on november 14th, 2020. you describe your coordination with mr. alexander as quote, tight at the hip. you later claim that you provided security for general flynn at the jericho march in d.c. on december 12th, 2020, and have claimed to coordinate closely and regularly with general flynn. you've also claimed to coordinate closely with sydney powell. a twitter account suggested that violence was imminent, quote. pray with every fiber of your being that their choices are wise, just, and fearless. i want to put up the video that doj released yesterday. the combat that the law enforcement officials, these were donald trump supporters. perhaps some of these extremist group members themselves, attacking capitol police that day. what is your sense with these letters that go back to all of the incitement of violence back to november and december in terms of how far back this committee is looking at these individuals and their incitement? >> as i said, this didn't happen by itself spontaneously on january 6th. president trump himself was urging people to come to washington on that date as were other of his ak o lights. the proud boys months in advance. after the election urging people to come to disrupt the process. now, clearly they had violence in mind and i think that clip you showed of fbi director wray is very instructive. the fbi, hardly a liberal, has described these right wing terrorist groups as a direct threat to our democratic way of life and institutions. they're the ones perpetrating violence more than any other groups in america. they are something to be concerned about. so i think the january 6 committee is doing it job and trying to get to the bottom of the plan and prepared violence that these groups were engaged in. >> congressman, the two republicans who serve on the committee do so at great risk to their political careers, but their safety and well-being. what does it say to you that being part of a committee investigating a deadly attack on the capitol risks their lives? >> i think it says a lot tragically about the republican party that has not so subtly allowed a violent wing of its own establishment to enter into the temple and to become part of the political environment. that is very dangerous. and the fact that only two republicans can be counted on right now to enforce the investigative work of the january 6th committee says volumes about the state of the republican party and the republican caucus in the house. tragically. it is something that worries me every day in terms of what other compromises are you willing to make that effectively erode democracy and faith in democracy in america. >> let me bring you back in, michael steele. this is the other side of the coin, right? it is clear. the subpoena letters and the footnotes read like the final product of the mueller report with the footnotes and annotations. they have laid over donald trump's twitter feed with the public statements and probably hours and hours and bless the heart of whoever had to listen to these right ring programs, podcasts, shows, whatever they are. they have laid over the statements of all these individuals. they have found the intersectionality with the groups organizing the events and they've laid them over to some sources inside donald trump's inner circle campaign or white house. it's unclear from reading these, but the truth will emerge and i guess my question, to whom will that matter? >> you asked the right question. you would hope maybe even think out of the natural course of things that it would matter certainly to those on the republican side who at least pretend to leadership. they want to govern the nation. beginning in 2023 assuming they take control of the house. but what do you do with it? what's the first thing you do when you take control of the house in 2023? oh, we're going to end any discussion or investigation into january 6th. is that the first act of the new republican congress? so, this really means a lot in this moment. not just for the members of the committee, nicolle, who were poring over those documents and figure out what happened, who was involved, but it needs to matter to the american people because you're not going to be confronting from the next 12 months a very, very important decision about handing the reigns of power of this federal government back into the hands of people who deny anything that happened on january 6th. and who themselves have professed the reinstatement of the man who orchestrated the attack on this great nation. so you know, this work is important, but it has, it runs the risk of ending in the next congress with the leadership that is already professed their lack of care. not even interest. they don't even give a damn about this. i mean, they're penalizing the republican members who served and supported this. they're willing to take out their own. that's how little they care about the american people. what are they thankful for? donald trump. what are we thankful for as we go into this holiday as a nation? thankful that we survived january 6th, dammit. the congressman's right. not out of some partisan configuration. he gets elected like everybody else to serve and represent his people. but that becomes more and more difficult when those being sent to the congress really don't give a damn about the country and they're more interested in supporting and lifting up the proud boys than taking them down. that's why what christopher said in the last segment was so important for how we begin to look at this. we can no longer put the blinders on and keep them on when it comes to this fragile democracy. >> to your point, too, this has been part of what these groups came in since their inception. the variable here is that they were elevated by donald trump to replace the mainstream. michael steele and i used to be the mainstream of the republican party, if you can imagine that. but donald trump, the sort of chemical impact of donald trump was to purge out and liz cheney and adam kinsinger, to purge anyone who refuse today lie. and donald trump said at a rally in 2017, told supporters don't believe what you hear, what you see. only believe what i tell you. he programmed that, to only believe him. but the elevation of these groups was donald trump and donald trump and donald trump. and now the endurance of donald trump's desire to have the white supremacist groups that christopher wray bravely tried to warn people about, march before the election. testified to it again before the election about these groups and again this year since joe biden has been in office. my question is so the committee has now focused in on the state actors. the government people they're interested in. they have focused on the campaign folks they think were involved or might have information. they are focused on the money. they take the subpoena to the folks who move money to the 501 c 4. they focused on the social media advice. on women for trump. on the white supremacists. are the lawmakers next, luke? >> you know, that's a good question because there's a lot of reluctance among members of congress to hold each other accountable. and you know, the members in this committee has said openly that they will stop at nothing. they will subpoena donald trump. they will subpoena members of congress if it comes to it. but to date, we have not seen that. i do know that there's some feeling among some of the staff to the committees, some of the investigators, that if republicans take control of congress, maybe they could be on the end of you know, frivolous investigations into themselves and face some kind of pushback on that. but i do think if there's, the more they discover as they talk to these different groups about who they were communicating with, who they were getting instructions from, if any of that ends up leading to some member of congress, they're going to have to call them in. so i do think that that is still a possibility and it may happen. the committee has at least a year to work on this. i know there's been talk about early spring, but just because they haven't called somebody yet doesn't mean they're not going to. they just may want to have more information in hand before they ask that person to come in. >> congressman, the last word. >> well, i think we need to focus particularly on the enabling of violence in our politics. by one of the two parties. you know, we just censored paul gosar for threatening the life of a member of congress and the president of the united states. marjorie taylor greene was censored because she issued e-mails and texts threatening the speaker of the house. matt gates just said he'd hire kyle rittenhouse as an intern. a young man acquitted who murdered two individuals and shot a third. what is happening? in terms of normalizing violence in our politics? if we go down that road and if the republican party embraces that as a tool of winning campaigns, this country is in for a world of trouble. >> thank you both so much for being part of our coverage. more breaking news this afternoon. when we come back, a jury has found the organizers of the 2017 right wing rally in charlottesville responsible for the violence that day, awarding more than $25 million in damages. we'll tell you about that when deadline white house continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. a quick break. don't go anywhere. i don't just play someone brainy on tv - i'm an actual neuroscientist. and i love the science behind neuriva plus. unlike ordinary memory supplements, neuriva plus fuels six key indicators of brain performance. more brain performance? yes, please! neuriva. think bigger. wayfair's black friday sale is on now! score unbelievable savings with our biggest sale ever! like ge appliances up to 40% off rugs up to 80% off and lighting up to 65% off. plus get bonus savings with a wayfair credit card and free shipping on thousands of products. don't miss our black friday happening now through november 27th. only at wayfair.com. ♪ ♪ ♪ (sha bop sha bop) ♪ ♪ are the stars out tonight? (sha bop sha bop) ♪ ♪ ♪ alexa, play our favorite song again. ok. ♪ i only have eyes for you ♪ instantly clear everyday congestion with vicks sinex saline. for fast drug free relief vicks sinex. instantly clear everyday congestion. and try vicks sinex children's saline. safe and gentle relief for children's noses. ooooh, that's really cool. check that out. bespoke post sends you awesome boxes every month for a great price and i love it. the variety's great, i love how easy and flexible it is. head to bespokepost.com and get a free gift with your first box when you enter code free. we're also following the breaking news out of the charlottesville where a jury there has decided in the civil case involving the white supremacist who organized the deadly unite the right rally. the jury finding the defendants guilty on four of the six claims, awarding more than $25 million in punitive and compensatory damage arguing that they violated the rights by plotting the violence beforehand. the jury deadlocked on two claims centered around a federal law that the the organizers conspired to commit racially motivated violence. joyce, take us through what happened and what this verdict means. verdict means. >> well, this is a very important verdict. it shows us that civil cases can have as much if not more impact than a criminal case can, and the strategy that was used here by robbie kaplan, one of the lead attorneys on the case, harkens back to litigation the southern poverty law center used in the 1980s to bankrupt the ku klux klan. you now have the ability to attach all of the resources of these groups and these individuals and simply, you know, to take away any ability that they have to continue in their current form. the klan, for instance, had to turn over its headquarters to the mother of one of its victims. these are powerful images, but it also disrupts these groups in a way that we hope law enforcement will do, but in some ways has not been able to. and so, this is now a moment where we've identified what these groups can no longer do. they can no longer hold these rallies where they are responsible for violence that takes place or they are at risk of these big multimillion dollar judgments. >> joyce, explain the counts on which the jury was deadlocked, because those -- i understood those to be the ones that emerged from the ku klux klan act and this is from the "times" reporting. the federal charges related to whether the defendants had engaged in a race-based violent conspiracy, which is illegal under an 1871 federal law known as the kkk act. that was designed to prevent vigilantes from denying newly-freed slaves their civil rights. the plaintiffs said they would seek a retrial on the federal charges. explain that and tell us what that looks like. >> the federal civil rights charges are powerful charges that can be used in situations like this. we don't have any indication yet why the jury hung. we do know that the judge encouraged them to try to deliberate through the problems that they were having and ultimately they said they were unable to reach a unanimous verdict so whether that means one or two jurors were having trouble or whether overall there was a concern, we just don't know. but now, the lawyers who brought this case can turn around and can ask if they choose to have those charges retried. i don't know, frankly, nicole, whether they will. they've won a significant victory on the other counts. there's perhaps some marginal utility to going back on these counts, but knowing that a jury has hung in this setting, they may just as well decide they're happy with what they've achieved here and decide their purpose is accomplished. >> michael steele, i know viewers of this program don't forget what the horror was but i want to read from the reporting all the same. the trial brought to life the hatred and anger espoused by the far-right groups, especially on the streets of charlottesville. a torch-lit march on the eve of the rally with hundreds of men chanting racist slogans evoked kkk and nazi marches. the testimony as well as the many videos and social media posts introduced were awash in the aconography of hate with nazi symbols and stiff-armed salutes with admiration for hitler and claims that non-white races were inferior. i am a student of what chris goldsmith talked about, some of the messaging circulating on the far right, and while this victory is significant, it has not abated, and we should not forget that this was a flash point in donald trump's presidency as well. and as memorable as his comments were about individuals on both sides, john kelly's head hung in what only appeared like shame and disgust will also be seared in my mind forever. >> well, and it's too bad that the heads of others inside the gop didn't hang as well in disgust and shame. for that moment. but the silence said a lot, and i think the reality is that when you give license to something like this, it gets bolder. it becomes emboldened. it finds a freshness to its activities that we have spent a very long time -- we fought a civil war over trying to snuff that out. because it is in contravention of the ideals of this country. there are no doubts. you know, 400 years, it's an ugly history, and there's a lot about it that folks -- a lot of folks today don't want to talk about. they don't want exposed, and they certainly don't want to see african americans tell that story in their own words. their own lived experience of how they grew up in this america, dealing with all of this. and to have that moment unfold the way it did in charlottesville was more than just a smack in the face or a turn away from the efforts to repudiate that, but it was an embrace by our political leadership that we're now seeing play out in a myriad of ways, nicole, that i think send out a clarion call to the country in asking the question, is this who you want to be? because this is what we've come through, and now, do you want more of this? and what are you willing to sacrifice as a nation to put it down? and i'm not talking about violence. this is not about, oh, let's meet violence with violence. you know? the gospel for all those card-carrying good christians out there who like to quote the gospel but yet still embrace this stuff. remember, the lord said, turn the other cheek, right? there were other ways to deal with the violent acts of others. and that's what a civil society has to bring itself to. not meet it on that battlefield but to do like king and others had espoused and say, we can take down the ugliness. we can take down the evil, by not becoming ugly and evil ourselves. and when the party stepped into that, by saying that there are fine people on both sides, it was a turning point that we now have to account for, i believe. >> and we're living with the repercussions every single day. >> yes. >> and moving in the wrong direction. in case i don't see either of you before thursday, i am so thankful for both of you. thank you so much for being part of this hour and so many of our hours. we are nothing without all of you. joyce vance, michael steele, thank you so much. the next hour of "deadline white house" starts after a quick break. house" starts after quick break. rtant nutrient for heart health. qunol's ultra purified omega-3, is sourced only from wild caught ocean fish, not farm raised and comes in an easy to swallow mini pill. the brand i trust is qunol. with relapsing forms of ms... there's a lot to deal with. not just unpredictable relapses. all these other things too. it can all add up. kesimpta is a once-monthly at-home injection... that may help you put these rms challenges in their place. kesimpta was proven superior at reducing the rate of relapses, active lesions, and slowing disability progression vs aubagio. don't take kesimpta if you have hepatitis b, and tell your doctor if you have had it, as it could come back. kesimpta can cause serious side effects, including 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[crowd cheering] i'm not a coach, but i invested in invesco qqq. which gives me access to next-gen statistical analysis software. become an agent of innovation with invesco qqq. i was appalled, like you, at the violence and destruction that we saw that day. i was appalled that you, our country's elected leaders, were victimized right here in these very halls. that attack, that siege was criminal behavior, plain and simple, and it's behavior that we, the fbi, view as domestic terrorism. it's got no place in our democracy, and tolerating it would make a mockery of our nation's rule of law. >> hi again, everyone, it's 5:00 in new york. take it from fbi director christopher wray. the january 6th attack was an act of domestic terrorism, plain and simple, the worst attack on the heart of our democracy in more than 200 years, organized and methodically planned, in part, by right-wing extremist groups. now as part of its investigation, the january 6th select committee is looking to understand the role of those extremist groups in the capitol attack. breaking just this afternoon, the committee has issued subpoenas to the proud boys and the oath keepers as well as their leaders, as well as a lower profile extremist group called the first amendment praetorians. the committee warning in court documents yesterday, quote, future elections are imminent and there could be future attacks on democracy rooted in conduct occurring well before the election. the select committee's task to study and suggest legislation to ensure that january 6th is not repeated and that our nation's democracy is protected from future attacks is urgent. the committee making that legal argument in response to an increasingly desperate effort by the disgraced twice impeached ex-president to block the committee from accessing white house files related to the attack. those are housed at the national archives, but the committee is also facing off against a persistent effort by trump world to obstruct their investigation. politico writes today about the ongoing standoff with top trump aides that the committee has previously subpoenaed. politico writes this, quote, two months after the january 6th select committee subpoenaed them, two of donald trump's top white house aides are locked in a standoff with the panel and the indictment of trump ally steve bannon appears to have done little to change their calculus. former white house chief of staff mark meadows and long-time trump social media manager dan scavino, the first trump white house official subpoenaed by the house's january 6th investigators, have yet to provide documents or testimony to investigators. the committee's protracted, ongoing negotiations with both men have yet to yield breakthroughs. in meadows' case, it's led to yet another threat of criminal contempt of congress charges. the january 6th committee racing against the clock to investigate every aspect of the deadly insurrection is where we start this hour with some of our favorite reporters and friends. msnbc political analyst, the former congresswoman donna edwards is here. also joining us, matt dowd, former chief strategist to george w. bush's re-election campaign. now a democratic candidate for texas lieutenant governor. and carol leonnig is here, coauthor of "i alone can fix it." carol leonnig, you are also the author of that epic investigation into the insurrection and i wonder, with your reporting and all of your sort of visibility into what happened, how do you see today's batch of subpoenas into the extremist groups, name checked by christopher wray, and their leaders? >> i think it's pretty interesting, and you hit the nail on the head, nicole, when you mentioned the committee racing against the clock. racing against the midterm elections clock, but also racing against the clock to build a more fleshy and full narrative of what happened. what's really interesting about the last 24, 48 hours, monday and tuesday, two series of subpoenas, is that based on my reporting, there's a interlocking web between the people who were subpoenaed on monday and the people were subpoenaed on tuesday. i'll give you one example. often overlooked is that roger stone, in addition to being a loyal sort of soldier of donald trump's, and a dirty trickster over the course of his history for all sorts of political campaigns, and for trump specifically, was guarded on the time of the january 6th protest by some oath keepers, some of whom were arrested in the course of the actual insurrection/storming of the capitol. i'll let people choose their own words. and that's really interesting. he's also believed to exchanged a lot of communications with oath keepers leader stuart rhodes so keep in mind, roger stone gets subpoenaed on monday by the committee. hasn't complied, i'm pretty sure, in terms of providing any information or documentation, but 24 hours later, you have the head of the oath keepers, the ostensible head of the oath keepers, stuart rhodes, also a huge trump champion and the leader of a group of people, 18 of whom are implicated in this storming of the capitol. the two of them in contact on january 5th and 6th with some calls the day before the storming of the capitol. >> so, i'm not an investigative reporter but i have interviewed carol leonnig enough to be able to pull out the two things she's tying together in her observations and let me share it with all of you. this is from the subpoena of roger stone. the investigation and public reports have revealed credible evidence of your involvement, according to documents provided to the select committee press reports and statements by you, you were in washington, d.c., on january 5th and january 6th to attend and speak at rallies in support of then president trump and his allegations of election fraud, specifically you spoke on january 5th at rallies that the u.s. supreme court held by a group affiliated with the three percenters and freedom plaza, held by the 80% coalition and were originally scheduled to speak at the january 6th rally at the ellipse held by women for america before traveling to washington. you promoted your upcoming appearance at a january 6th stop the steal event and solicited donations from supporters to pay for security by directing them to stopthesteal.org. while in washington, you reportedly used members of the oath keepers as personal security guards, several of whom were reportedly involved in the attack on the capitol and at least one of whom has been indicted. here is the 1/6 committee's letter about the oath keepers. individuals associated with the oath keepers organization were similarly involved in planning and participating in the violent attack on the capitol on january 6th, 18 members of the oath keepers were indicted by a federal grand jury for allegedly planning a coordinated attack to storm the capitol, including by traveling to washington, d.c., with paramilitary gear and supplies. elmer stuart rhodes is president of oath keepers, prior to january 6th, rhodes repeatedly suggested the oath keepers should engage in violence to ensure their preferred election outcome. carol, roger stone picked them. they were very public. they were telling people to arm up and come to washington with, quote, paramilitary gear and supplies. roger stone didn't have any sort of plausible explanation for not knowing precisely what was going to happen that day. tell me how much these subpoenas suggest that premeditation and conspiracy and how far the tentacles go into trump's inner political circle. how much do you think that is in focus, reading these letters? >> you know, i always shy away from predicting, speculating, suggesting that which i cannot publish in the newspaper with the standards of the "washington post," very high standards, but i will say that your sniffer is very attuned. i see behind this as an investigative reporter an effort on the part of the committee to tie and investigate the potential ties to the president and especially the former president's knowledge of what was going on. you know, it's sort of, we use this phrase quite often in news meetings but it sort of strains credulity to think that roger stone, someone who was always trying to help and aid donald trump, chose to be protected by a group that was, in public and private domestic chatter, recommending violence on january 6th, urging its members to come armed to washington, d.c., helping organize and enable the possibility of coming armed to washington, d.c., among its members. it's hard to -- it strains, again, credulity to think that roger stone, accidentally, coincidentally, chose this group without knowing its goals and then, of course, the committee's view has got to be, it strains credulity that the president at the time, donald trump, did not know about this group that roger stone had aligned himself with and that was aligning itself with, as they called him, big daddy. some of these domestic extremists were referring to the president as, you know, daddy has called us to washington. time to saddle up. >> and i'm sure, in some sad, sick way, the state will pay for whatever therapy it takes to unpack that. i'm going to leave it alone. donna edwards, we have so much of what went on -- that went on in public view. so, what the subpoenas add is an -- and i have used this, i'm going to use it one more time. the second volume of the mueller report, the obstruction report, it was really in all those footnotes where you learned that what the mueller investigators did was investigated their witnesses and those interviews were made up the narrative of that second volume on obstruction, but it was clear that they were also laying over donald trump's tweets and the news reports and the way donald trump reacted to the news reports. it is clear from the last 24 hours of subpoenas that what the 1/6 committee has done is looked at everything that happened in full view. donald trump said, come to washington, it's going to be great. his political operations, the women for america first, spent money bringing people to washington. those people included white supremacist groups that alex jones and his fill-in said, come, be ready, it's going to be epic. i mean, this all happened in full view, and what the committee seems to be doing is showing its witnesses, and 150 have already talked to them, we only talk about the ones that defy those subpoenas. we don't know what we don't know about who those 150 include. but what is your sense of what is still missing in terms of their probe? >> well, first of all, i think that we heard from chairman thompson when the committee was formed that they intended to get to the before, during, and after what happened in the white house, what happened on capitol hill, and what happened with these outside players leading up to and after january 6th. and i think what we're seeing is, one, the committee has an array of documents, public statements, and other testimony from other witnesses that it is beginning to piece together. what we don't really quite know yet, although we can suspect it from reading some of the documents, is the direct link between president trump and his team at the white house with their campaign team with the people who ended up marching to and storming violently into the capitol. and i think that the testimony that will come forward is going to fill in some of those holes, and these witnesses may think for a temporary time period that they can avoid complying with these subpoenas, but i think that this committee has made very clear that it intends to enforce its subpoenas, and there are going to be people who are outside of the total inner circle who are not going to be able to just avoid a subpoena from the congress of the united states, and eventually, they will have to comply. now, the question will be, how much of this can be done in time, not just to lay out what happened, but also to do the other work of the committee, which is make recommendations for legislation and get those things in place before the november election and certainly before the end of this term of the congress. >> you know, matt dowd, it was said during both the impeachments of donald trump and the mueller probe that what they really needed, what mueller had to find was a smoking gun. smoking gun of obstruction. he found six. what first impeachment managers had to find was a smoking gun that donald trump abused his office. the transcript was stuffed in, like, the meat locker of servers and it came out because of whistle-blowers and the smoking gun went right next to mueller's six smoking guns of obstructive conduct. the most bipartisan impeachment vote and most bipartisan conviction vote in our country's history, and what the democrats have republicans who impeached trump found and what the democrats and republicans who voted to convict donald trump found was that he clearly incited a deadly insurrection. his mission statement was to, quote, hang mike pence against the u.s. capitol. my question to you is, what does this committee have to find? because three investigations have yielded three smoking guns, and i've lost the thread on what needs to be proven about donald trump. >> well, i actually think -- i mean, my -- i'm glad there's a bunch of subpoenas out there, just add to more subpoenas out there. my problem right now is the -- i feel the lack of urgency about what is actually fundamentally happening in our country today. we're focused on so many different things, but really, to me, the fundamental thing is what occurred on january 6th and then the aftermath of january 6th. january 6th is almost a year ago. a year ago. and not one person in power has been held accountable yet. not one person. and not only have we not done anything to buttress our democracy in the after of january 6th by passing laws encouraging people to practice norms, all of those things. it's actually gotten worse since january 6th. it's now more acceptable to do what happened on january 6th than at least in the aftermath of right after january 6th, there were some republicans that spoke out against it. now they're actually speaking out for that type of activity in this. and so, when we get in this situation, i think we're now so far removed in most americans' minds from january 6th that we're sitting here in almost december and thanksgiving of the year that they're off on some other focus, which the american public is on many different things and now they're thinking about thanksgiving and football and all that, but the lack of urgency, and i think the lack of accountability. i'll give you an analogy to this situation that i think is very apropos. this is like a bunch of people showing up at a bank in a small town and some of the officers of the bank walk outside and lie to them and say, you have a right to go in there and take the money. the money was taken from you wrongly. go in there and take the money. and the people go, okay, great. and they storm the bank and they go in there and take the money. and the only people right now that have been held accountable were the people that were lied to and instigated and told to go do something based on some complete big lie and wrong principle, and they went in there. not a single of the officers of the bank, and i would actually add not a single of the officers of the government, have been held accountable in one iota of this. almost a year in the aftermath. and as i added also, we've done nothing, nothing, and we've actually diminished the protections of our democracy in the ten months that have happened since january 6th. and so, unless we grasp some level of urgency and people are held accountable, we often talk about the line between right and wrong and between peaceful protest and terrorism, but if nobody's held accountable, there is no line. there is no line. we should quit saying there's a line until somebody is held accountable at some level of power. >> well, there are no lines, and i mean, i take matthew's point. things have gotten worse. things are so -- you would understand how bad things are at fox news. brett bayer is calling them out. we cover fox news because a whole bunch of people watch fox news and tucker carlson is one of the biggest purveyors of conspiracy theories and disinformation that sit at the heart of a current and ongoing domestic violent extremism threat issued by the department of homeland security. npr reports this, veteran figures shared their objections with fox news media ceo suzann scott and its president of news, jay wallace. those objections rose to the chairman and ceo of the network's parent company, fox corp., and here's brett baier getting interrogated, questioned by his colleague in what to me sounds like a very awkward exchange. let me play that. >> and you know, i watched the feature with tucker, and i watched it on fox nation. interesting perspective i didn't get before but i didn't get hurt by it or damaged by it. were you bothered by it? that's the reporting. >> there's a -- yeah, brian, i don't want to go down this road. >> okay. >> and you know, i mean, there were concerns about it, definitely. and i think that the news division did what we do. i mean, we covered the story. and you know, i wanted to do all of that internally. steve and jonah made their decision, and it's their decision. >> i watched brett baier's anchoring of the days before or sort of right after the election, and what brett baier is doing cannot be overlooked. he is standing inside the largest purveyor of lies about the election, the largest amplification of donald trump's ongoing lies that are at the heart of an ongoing threat to the homeland and saying, yeah, i'm uncomfortable. i covered the story. and he's talking in that clip about two lifelong conservatives who quit the network, and i wonted, you know, matt's point about there being no lines, a line was drawn by two conservatives this week, donna, who quit fox news. but i tried to draw that line with chris christie, who wrote a book, and the cover of the book is, "fighting conspiracy theories and liars." there's not a word about fox news as a purveyor of conspiracy theories and liars. nobody watching this show is a threat. no one watching this show is trafficking in the grievances of the lies about a stolen election, and i wonder, donna, if we're getting to the point where even if the 1/6 committee proves beyond any reasonable doubt that donald trump knowingly and intentionally plotted a coup with john eastman as the intellectual architect of the whatever, the sort of purr version of the constitution, mike pence, who failed to do what trump wanted him to do, i mean, they prove all the pieces of the president, the justice department, the pentagon, the congress, the allies, the rs that he mentioned, acting a.g. rosen, the extremist groups that came to washington as they were told to do, roger stone, who was in the -- they could prove the whole thing. what impact would it have? >> well, i think it's a good question, nicole. i mean, i think all of us who care about democracy and democratic principles and constitutional governance are worried about exactly the same thing, and it is as matt expressed, that the lack of urgency on trying to shore up our systems doesn't seem to be -- to quite be there yet to match the urgency of the moment. and i guess my concern is that i think that there are going to be a set of people, maybe it's one-third, i don't know what it is, it's very vocal, that will never, under any circumstances, accept any report that comes from the january 6th committee or from the congress. but that doesn't mean that it's not important for us to engage in the exercise of finding out what happened, why it happened, and to try to do what we can to prevent it. the danger for us would be if we just accept that we can't do anything and all sit back and watch our democracy fade away. i'm not willing to do that. >> perfect place to stop. >> nicole, nicole. >> go ahead. >> can i just say one thing? i would just like to remind everybody that from 1933 to 1945, germany rebuilt their infrastructure, germany got inflation under control, and germany's wages went up in the course of that. an economy was robust. and in the midst of 1933 to 1945, they lost their democracy. so, let's keep in mind that we can have all these other things we deal with and in the middle of it, if we don't tend to what we need to tend to, in the garden of democracy, we can deal with all these other issues. we lose our democracy. >> matt dowd, carol leonnig, thank you for starting us off this hour. donna sticks around. when we come back, republicans across the country are working to make it harder to vote and in michigan, they may have found a way to get around that state's democratic governor and their assault on democracy. that story's next. plus, yesterday's batch of subpoenas included familiar names like roger stone and alex jones, but two other conservative operatives who were subpoenaed, a man named duston stockton and a woman named jennifer lawrence, have been described as the bonnie and clyde of maga world and we'll bring you their story. why is the rnc agreeing to pay some of the twice-impeached disgraced ex-president's legal bills? we'll explain. 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[ clicks tongue ] i don't know. i think they look good, man. mm, smooth. uh, they are a little tight. like, too tight? might just need to break 'em in a little bit. you don't want 'em too loose. for those who were born to ride there's progressive. with 24/7 roadside assistance. -okay. think i'm gonna wear these home. -excellent choice. michigan was a major flash point in the disgraced ex-president's attempts to overturn the 2020 election results. while his efforts were ultimately not successful, michigan's now back as a central front in the fight to protect american democracy. republicans in the state are about to force through voting laws that would make it harder for many people in michigan to cast their ballots. they're attempting to do so without democratic governor gretchen whitmer's signature. how, you might ask? well, there's a loophole in the state's constitution that allows them to use a petition drive, which requires signatures of just 4% of registered voters in the state. the detroit free press reports this. quote, michigan's process for approving voter-initiated legislation stands out as a national outlier in allowing lawmakers to enact changes proposed by a minority of voters whose proposals are not subject to either a popular vote or the governor's approval. joining us now is michigan's secretary of state, jocelyn benson. also joining us, charlie sykes, columnist and editor at large. secretary benson, tell us what's happening. >> well, you know, notably, today is the one-year anniversary of our state board of canvassers in michigan certifying the results of the 2016 november election and it's remarkable that here we are a year later, still battling the misinformation about the truth of that election and it's misinformation that's manifested itself in this very un-american, anti-democratic effort to change the rules and the policies that enables so many citizens to vote in record numbers in a very secure election process that over 250 audits in our state have affirmed as accurate. and instead used this very loophole that you mentioned in our constitution to change those rules and do things like make it more difficult for citizens to identify themselves before receiving an absentee ballot or voting from home and make it more difficult for our local election administrators to do things like have churches and schools service polling places by eliminating needed funding sources and philanthropic sources for running our elections, so it's a pernicious effort to make it more difficult not just for citizens to vote but more difficult for us to run secure elections and it's not being presented to citizens in that way, of course, it's being misrepresented. >> madam secretary, were there any instances of voter fraud, widespread voter fraud that would have changed the result of michigan's 2020 election? >> nope. and if there had been any, one would have taken it seriously and held those accountable. but we would have discovered it. this has been the most scrutinized election in our state's history, in our country's history, and i think at this point, my hope is that we spend the next year really looking at how we replicate the high turnout, replicate the high security that led to a successful election instead of battling this misinformation and still trying to find accountability for those who propagated and promoted it, yet here we are, instead, trying to inform voters about the way in which this loophole in the law ises being used to potentially dismantle protections and access to the vote that they have taken advantage of and used to vote in such record numbers. >> do republicans in the state back this, and if they do, is it because they believe the lies? they believe that there was fraud in michigan? what problem do people think they're trying to solve there? >> well, it's a political strategy. it's a political strategy to continue to plant seeds of doubt among citizens that their elections are not secure, even though we know that they are, and it's a political strategy, ultimately, i think, to dampen turnout, to deter citizens from not just being engaged in voting but ultimately holding their officials accountable. there are republican legislators that have found and concluded that our results of our election through their own investigation were accurate and our election procedures were secure, and so there really is no reason to try to mess with the elections process in a way and in such an undemocratic way that will only result in making it more confusing and difficult for citizens to vote, thereby dampening turnout and by making it for difficult for us to run our elections securely, thereby setting the stage, ironically, for potentially more problems and challenges in the future. >> charlie sykes, the threats to democracy are happening every day. they're happening at a pace that we can barely keep up with. and if i thought that i would be anchoring the demise of the american democracy when i first started working here, if you told me that eight years ago, i would have asked you what planet you were from. but that is precisely what is happening. there was no fraud in michigan. these measures are -- and i'm curious whose strategy this was, whose legislative strategy this was. we know a lot of the voter suppression, voter nullification laws are coming from think tanks in washington, d.c. i just have questions about where this one came from. but the demise of democracy is happening in full view, predicated on a lie, designed to make it harder for people to vote and to politicize the people who count the votes. this is just today's exhibit. >> well, it is. and secretary benson did a good job of putting this into context. this is almost on two tracks. i mean, it strikes me that when you look at the actual substance of it, there's a certain cleverness to what they are doing because if this becomes a referendum and a debate over voter i.d., the fact is, the majority of voters support voter i.d. people don't see that as anti-democratic, even large numbers of minority voters support voter i.d. but the other track is that this is happening specifically to advance the big lie, to continue the myth that there was something deeply wrong with the election. so, when you ask the question, why is this being done? is it being done for the specific changes and tweaks to hold down the turnout? maybe that's a side benefit. but i think it's this larger drum beat to convince people that the election, in fact, was fraudulent when, in fact, the evidence is overwhelming that it's not. this is a way of keeping that big lie alive, and you were right, you're seeing this all over the country. i was just reading a letter from legislators all over the country asking for a 50-state audit. the possibility of decertifying the presidential election. the possibility of calling the house of representatives into session to deal with all of this. look, this is crazy talk, but it is to keep the fires burning. and that's what's really dangerous. >> michigan secretary of state jocelyn benson, thank you so much for being part of our conversation. when we come back, among the names in yesterday's batch of subpoenas from the january 6th select committee, two conservative operatives described as the bonnie and clyde of maga world. that reporting is next. e and clyde of maga world. that reporting is next if you're 55 and up, t- mobile has plans built just for you. whether you need a single line or lines for family members, you'll get great value on america's most reliable 5g network. like 2 lines of unlimited for just $27.50 a line. only at t-mobile. ♪ ♪ there are beautiful ideas that remain in the dark. but with our new multi-cloud experience, you have the flexibility you need to unveil them to the world. ♪ as someone who resembles someone else, i appreciate that liberty mutual to unveil them to the world. knows everyone's unique. that's why they customize your car insurance, so you only pay for what you need. oh, yeah. that's the spot. only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty, liberty, liberty, liberty ♪ as i observe investors balance risk and reward, i see one element securing portfolios, time after time. gold. your strategic advantage. what does the future of strength look like? 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nonsurgical treatments. it was a total game changer. learn more about the condition at factsonhand.com each one of the individuals who received a subpoena today apparently had a role in raising money for the rally on the 6th and in some cases, so-called stop the steal rallies earlier, you know, in december, and so we want to follow the money, find out how this whole riot was planned and paid for and the like. >> follow the money. if you follow trump's presidency or you watch crime shows on tv, you already know it is a tried and true practice of any complex investigation and the january 6th select committee's probe into the insurrection is no exception. that was congresswoman zoe lofgren referring to subpoenas issued yesterday. the subpoenas targeted key players in the organizing and financing of the rallies that ultimately led to the attack on the capitol, including high-profile folks like roger stone and alex jones. two of the lesser-known figures who were also subpoenaed yesterday, dustin stockton and jennifer lawrence. they're referred to in a comprehensive profile in politico as, quote, the bonnie and clyde of maga world. from that piece, quote, the january 6th rally was for them the culmination of work they had been doing for the past decade, work that long predated the election conspiracy or qanon or donald trump's political career. they existed on what seemed like the margins of conservative politics until suddenly it wasn't the margins anymore at all. trump was the latest and most powerful vehicle for their politics and ambition, and he was what brought them to washington on january 6th. although you could almost as accurately say they're what brought him there since they were the ones who helped organize much of the rally. joining our conversation is the author of that fantastic piece of reporting in politico magazine, david freedlander. charlie and donna are back. david, i read this piece last night and had to have you on to talk about it. explain who these figures are. >> well, thank you for having me. they're a couple of sort of tricksteres in american conservative politics and they've been at it for about ten years now. and, you know, they're these folks who sort of live off the land. they do antics and stunts and in a world in which politics is kind of lived online with less trust in political institutions, they've really made a career out of that. and as for the election, they organized bus tours that went around the country, rallying folks to the cause of the stolen election. but like i say, they're kind of tricksteres. they do it with a little bit of an arched eyebrow. we're not quite sure what they really believe as they're doing it and they helped organize the rally on january 6th, but they say, at least, that they kind of stopped short of the riot that then went to the capitol, the siege of the capitol later that day. >> let me play some of mr. stockton at the january 5th rally. >> obviously, we know what's going to happen at the capitol and that we need these legislators to do the right thing. we need them to look at the evidence that this election was stolen and then do the right thing, because if our votes don't count, nothing counts. we're going to try to give you guys realtime updates about what's happening in the capitol, if it goes to the supreme court, and where we need people to be. >> so, what i want to understand, david, is, is this from the subpoena yesterday. this is in mr. stockton's letter. according to press reports, you and others working for and with women for america first to organize the january 6th rally collectively communicated with president trump, white house officials, including mark meadows, and others about the rally and other events planned to coincide with the certification of the 2020 electoral college results. you reportedly were concerned, quote, about plans by the stop the steal movement to organize an unpermitted march that would reach the steps of the capitol as congress gathered to certify the election results, so much so that you and others, including amy crumber, wfaf's chair, felt they needed to urgently warn the white house of the possible danger. you were aware of the view, the last-minute march without a permit, that it felt unsafe. tell me whether -- what should we read into that? what the select committee seems to understand about their efforts to communicate and the letter indicates directly with trump and mark meadows. >> well, what they say is that they were planning for this rally on -- first of all, a rally on the 5th and then a rally on the 6th. what happened was then some other figures in this sort of far-right sphere got to the white house, got to president trump, and they're the ones who urged a march to the capitol after that original rally at the ellipse. and so, they say that this thing got away from them and they're ready to tell their story about that, because they feel as if they were doing, you know, quote, unquote, the right thing by having a sort of peaceful rally right where the president was said to be. >> what did they think would happen? they were spoon-feeding donald trump's base a lie. i mean, i guess i'm just unclear on what line they're drawing. that they wanted people to be there, they just didn't want them to engage in what harry dunn called medieval hand-to-hand -- i mean, what line in their heads do they think they have drawn? >> yeah, i mean, they're definitely going -- it's up to and past the line of incitement. when you hear that language that you played and some of the language at the rallies, it's frightening, and it's anti-democratic. it's a reference to your earlier segment, for sure. they would say they were echoing what the president said. they certainly did not intend for anybody to sort of leave where they were and go march on the capitol, let alone sort of surround and siege the building. but of course, there are other figures who were urging that on, who did get to the president, and then the president urged that on. but look, i agree with you. i mean, these folks, they're like -- they see themselves as kind of the hunter s. thompson of the american right. they're tricksters and provocateurs and so you've obviously got to take it with a little grain of salt, whatever they say. >> it's so interesting, david, because you go through this game of relativity. you look at all the bad guys and you're like, well, they're like not as bad as the oath keeper guys, who said, bring your weapons, but they're worse. but you're right. it is an incredible piece of reporting. i'm really glad that we got to talk to you today. david friedlander, thank you so much. when we come back why is the rnc using their money to pay some of the ex-president's legal bills in relation to his businesses? legal bills in relation to his businesses i just heard something amazing! now for the first time one medication was approved to treat and prevent migraines. nurtec is the first and 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"washington post" reports that in october, the rnc agreed to make, quote, two payments totaling more than $121,000 to the firm of trump's lawyer, ronald fischetti, as trump faces dual investigations into his business practices in new york. the committee came right out and said it, as a leader of our party, defending trump and his record of achievement is critical to the gop, and framed the investigations as a political witch hunt. we're back with charlie and donna. these aren't witch hunts and even if they were, they have nothing to do with his time as president, charlie. >> no, and it's extraordinary that a political party would use donor funds in this way for the defense of the private business of the former president. but look, i mean, there's two things at work here. number one, donald trump is the ultimate cash cow for the rnc and apparently demands this as a sign of their loyalty. sign of their loyalty. the folks at the rnc have lost the ability to say no even when it's an extraordinary abuse of trust and a waste of their money. >> donna, i'm of two minds. knock yourself out. less money to spend on campaign ads. two, doesn't donald trump have enough money to pay his own legal bills? >> donald trump never wanted to spend his own money. it's why he charges the rnc to host their gatherings at mar-a-lago. it's why he wanted everybody staying at the trump hotel in d.c. i'm not surprised that donald trump is demanding payment that these legal bills be paid. if i were donors, who knows about gop donors these days. if you're a donor, you're thinking you're giving money so you can run those ads against democrats. i guess not in today's gop. i think they should pay all his legal bills and take up all the money of the party to do that and let democrats have, you know, a little bit of a ride there. >> a former senior white house official in the trump administration had told me, charlie, that these lawsuits and multiple fronts on which they're being raged are draining him from a strategic standpoint and financial standpoint. is there any limit to what the rnc will fund? >> oh, no. i think we've passed every possible line of what limits the rnc will not cross. look, donald trump is allegedly a billionaire himself as you point out. he's -- i mean, how much has he raised for his various super packs. hundreds of millions of dollars. he's insisting that the rnc bank roll this. the rnc could have easily said no. they lost the ability to say no. i don't think there's any limit. >> more money for hamburgers i guess. charlie sykes, donna edwards, thank you for spending time with us. thank you for spending time with us enough, crohn's! for adults with moderate to severe crohn's or ulcerative colitis, stelara® can provide relief, and is the first approved medication to reduce inflammation on and below the surface of the intestine in uc. you, getting on that flight? back off, uc! stelara® may increase your risk of infections, some serious, and cancer. before treatment, get tested for tb. tell your doctor if you have an infection, flu-like symptoms, sores, new skin growths, have had cancer, or if you need a vaccine. pres, a rare, potentially fatal brain condition, may be possible. some serious allergic reactions and lung inflammation can occur. lasting remission can start with stelara®. janssen can help you explore cost support options. the snapshot app from progressive rewards you for driving safe and driving less. okay, what message did you hear this time? safe drivers can save using snapshot? -what's snapshot? -what the commercial was about. -i tune commercials out. -me too. they're always like blah, blah blah. tell me about it. i'm going to a silent retreat next weekend. my niece got kicked out of one of those. -for talking? -grand larceny. how about we get back to the savings? 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