running again from president, reminding trump he could be the biggest loser in american politics. as many experts producted, kyle rittenhouse white house found not guilty of all charges, still, one of his attorneys is striking out at extreme republican members of congress and donald trump jr. will tell you why. good morning, it's a busy morning. welcome to "morning joe," monday, november 22nd, we'll begin in wisconsin where at least five people are dead and many are injured after an suv drove into a christmas parade in wisconsin. a red suv crashed into barricades hitting dozens of people in attendance. the moment of impact was caught on camera. ♪♪ >> oh! >> law enforcement officials tell nbc news police are questioning a person of interest who may have a long criminal history. the person of interest may have been fleeing from an earlier incident involving a knife when the vehicle reached a parade. we'll speak with tom winter. their public schools are closed today. police will hold a press conference this afternoon 1:00 local time and we'll be caring it on msnbc here and covering every angle of the story as it's still developing. joins you now in milwaukee where several of the victims are transported. megan fitzgerald, what can you tell us? >> reporter: mika, what we know about right now that this hospital confirmed 15 patients admitted here. we know more than 40 people are injured at this point. five people have lost their lives. we know that number could increase as several people are in critical condition at this hour. the fact that we are standing in front of a children's hospital get to the heart of this tragedy. we talk about families and children excited to go to this parade at the center of town. something that was cancelled last year because of the pandemic until this red suv came plowing down the street taking out everyone on its path. i want you to listen to what one eye witness told us. >> my daughter is maybe five feet away from me. the suv keeps going 48 or 50 miles per hour and i saw people on the ground, there is blood. it's really bad. >> yeah, this woman obviously among many others who made it out. you got to imagine the trauma that's now setting in these children and these parents watching this tragedy unfold. the arch diocese here in the community tells us among the victims is a catholic priest and parishners. we'll get an update on this when police hold the next press conference. >> megan fitzgerald, greatly appreciate it. what a tragedy, it's unfathomable. let's bring in tom winter to figure out how this nightmare unfolded. a couple of things right now based on your sources. they do not believe this is an act of terrorism? >> that's correct, joe, speaking with several that's been briefed with this at this moment at least what they have have uncovered so far there is no indication of terrorism or foreign-inspired terrorist attack. this has anything to do with the attack tied to kyle rittenhouse's verdict. we are being told this is a chain of event that police best understand at this time. there were some sort of a knife fight or stabbing occur in a near by park and this person of interests was being questioned into the late hours last night is somebody who was involved in that in the course of fleeing that drove into this parade and killed and injured a number of adult and children. a couple of things we are trying to get a hand on why this person chose this crime. it's more than one street, we need to get a better sense why they chose this particular path based on our reporting and public source of information that we have been able to look in to. this person has a deep and detailed criminal his a couple of other things we'll be keeping an eye on was this person being chased at all. if not then why did they choose this route? you can understand why we are being so cautious at this state as far as why we are saying it's still early in the investigation but based on that we are getting some education that this is not terrorism-related. >> the information you have been getting in your reporting and others getting through the night, again, this is where we are right now at 6:07 a.m. on the east coast on monday morning that this was a person with a long criminal history fleeing a knife fight in a near by park and again based on your reporting it just seems like he was finding routes to escape that night fight. it was actually more of a random choice. >> that's what all indications are at this point. i would like to know why he chose this route and indications why he was involved with the law. either way it's a shocking and a horrific crime and having seen the video you played there until its inclusion is very difficult to look at, joe. >> tom winter, thank you very much for your reporting this morning. now this new polling had president biden's rating at 44%. that's the latest u.s. poll. still a six point drop from when the same poll conducted last month on his handling of the issues. the president is in positive territory for only one area. his distribution of the covid-19 vaccine. but now the president has his build back better bill act which passed the house on friday >> on this vote, the yays are 220, the nays are 213. the build back better bill is passed. >> the senate is hoping to vote on the bill before christmas. every democratic senator will need to support the package for it to pass there. let's bring in the host of "way too early," jonathan lemire, eddie glaude jr. and best selling author, katty kay. why don't we start with the last person we saw in that shot, katty kay, nancy pelosi who now was a guiding force in pushing through the affordable care act, guiding force pushing through covid-19 relief and the transportation bill and the build back better bill. you look at her resume of what she's been able to shepherd through the house. i heard this was never going to happen. let's start with nancy pelosi. she obviously ranks up there legislatively as one of the most successful speaker of all time, does she? >> yes, i remember after the affordable act, this was a really tough passage. we saw all of the divisions within the house democrats and those who didn't want to vote on this until the build back better bill was actually linked and didn't want to vote on the infrastructure bill until this bill were going to pass as well. it was not a pretty process but she got it. she got both the infrastructure bill and the build back better bill voted on. no one can count votes like nancy pelosi. even when it was looking rough for her, democrats reminded us when she gets these votes through, people won't remember what it looked like getting these votes through, just remember that they passed. now they have to get out to people and these money have to get out to americans and has to be felt around the country and that's going to take a little longer. let's talk about what happened on the other side of pennsylvania avenue, you have joe biden who came in tempting everybody i can get things done. you look at his numbers that have been dropping and dropping because he has not gotten a lot of legislation done. there is been a lot of democrats yelling at each others and talking to reporters and now a massive infrastructure passes and now this massive build back better bill passes, and at the end of the day the only reason it passed along with nancy pelosi was because at some point progressives put up their hands and said, listen, we don't trust the moderates but we trust joe biden. joe biden says he's going to get this done which is why it got done. >> the white house believes after a summer slump had turned the corner. president biden then candidate biden campaigned on this after four years of donald trump. he wanted to aim high and prove that democracy can still work if you compete across the globe. certainly this summer hit bottom from withdrawal of afghanistan and delta variant and covid cases surging which caused his poll numbers. they acknowledged there is still a way to go for the senate. progressives have sacrificed a lot here than conservatives and moderates. they put their faith on joe biden. he had extracted a framework promise to get it done. it's still going to be a torture of existing process here. this bill will go back to the house, we are not at the finish line yet. it may extend into early next year. we'll see about the christmas deadline. the white house believes those poll numbers will go up again, inflation and covid cases start to tick up again among the unvaccinated. that's something we are watching too during the travel season. >> there are just numbers sitting there right now because of reality of inflation. we have inflation which of course could be predicted, a lot of people were warning about inflation. coming out of covid, people have $2.3 trillion in their staifr savings. >> they'll stay there until inflation washes out over the next six to nine months which it should do. the same thing with the economy, eddie, you look at that 39% is pretty obvious that economy number and sort of a feeling about how america is doing. that's going to go up and down with covid-19 cases. eddie, are you still there? >> he's there. >> there is eddie. i just didn't see you, i kept on saying your name which is a cue that i would love to see eddie right now. eddie, when covid cases went down this summer, joe biden's number were high and delta came up, his number didn't. i suspect when those covid cases wash out those numbers will go backup again. >> i completely agree. as we see some kind of stability as we emerge from the disrupting el effectives of covid. i think those numbers will change. there are some disturbing facts featured. one of things i am concerned about is numbers regarding to african-american. there is a lot here that we have to think about, i think you are absolutely right. we see some kind of stability with regards to covid, we may see those numbers increase. >> you see numbers are down among black americans and hispanic americans and you see him down among democrats. he's at 80% instead of 88% or 90%. i suspect some of those numbers are going to tick backup when build back better bill becomes law. those are numbers that'll go back to biden or a democrat as elections come up. as we turn the corner and go into 2022. i can't imagine anything important than to get the john lewis' voting rights bill passed. >> i agree. what american voters looking for is fight. we heard from kirsten sinema that she's been talking to reporters a lot and her faith of the filibuster, that does not go well. we need to see the democratic party fighting with regards of this issue. we saw indication of what may happen if we don't get some fight regarding to virginia and we worried about that. i am still sleeping because of paris, joe, you can tell. it's amazing. >> don't worry about it, eddie, we know you are tired and that's a good looking guy. you are like wall paper for us right now. >> exactly, just sit there and look pretty. >> president biden and his members told allies he plans to run for reelection in 2024. according to washington post, the message is aimed at tampering down the assumption among many democrats that biden may not seek reelection given his age and waning popularity and freezing the field for vice president harris and other potential hopefuls. >> jonathan lemire, you know mik and i spent a good amount of time in washington last week, here we are, we are not threw his first year and which you are hearing people talking about, is he going to run again? he says he's going to run again. these are little to be early about that. >> oh please, he's running again. >> i think he can start worry about this a year and a half from now. >> you are right, this is what people are talking about. there is always chattering anxiety of the incumbent president. this deserves more examination not just because the president's age but also because while he was running last time in the 2020 campaign. this maybe a one term president, there is an idea that he'll be restoring the dignity of office. the president's inner circle never said that and joe biden never said that. president biden said privately and publicly he's going to run again. we should take him at his point. we should believe he will. even if he were not to run again, you would never admit that, of course you have to look like you are running again because the minute you are not, you become a lame duck and your political capitol vanishes. 2024 is way off. the president have said publicly and his closest confidantes that he intends to run again. >> you have to keep in mind where the chatters come from especially president trump which is fuelling a lot of that. again, never under estimate joe biden. people make a mistake, they always do. as for former president trump, if he plans to run again in 2024 and his ex-adviser had a strategy to convince him not to. he or someone else may need to explain this man's unhappy faith. they'll remind trump that if he were beaten in 2024, he'll joined stevenson as one of history's serial losers. trump hates losers. stevenson wants to be the former president for eisenhower in the 1952 and 1956's general election. he would lose the democratic primary to jfk in 1966. >> katty kay talks to people close to donald trump for several years now, leading up to 2020, and still talking to them as people talk about 2024. of course the hot take is of course donald trump is going to run, he can't stay away from the attention, he loves the attention. those close to him say the only thing that's more driving for him than winning an election is his fear of losing an election. he can't stand the idea of being a two-time loser. the question is will that stop him even if he does not know who stevenson is, will it stop him running in 2024? >> he never knows his history in the 1920s but he knows his history of his father. donald trump's father seems to sit there in his head saying you are a loser, you are going to be a loser, being a loser is the worst possible story, how donald trump goes to the hospital when his son don jr. was born and ivanka trump is saying to him, let's call him don jr. it's the worst possible thing he can think that he is. he may like the rallies and power and the idea that he's still the person that controls the republican party and he can be back in the white house and i am sure he would love the triumph of winning but stack that up against the smallest possibility of losing. the possibility of losing, trump is the possibility of winning. >> and you look at what happened in 2020 and you look from 2016 and 2020, you project that forward and as one potential republican candidate for president in 2024 told me last week, nobody wants him to campaign for him in any swing states. if you are running statewide in pennsylvania, you don't want him there in a general election, same with michigan and wisconsin and same with any swing states. that tells you all you need to know what's happening with his popularity even last year since the election and january 26. still ahead, what is next for kyle rittenhouse, the jury delivered its not guilty verdict. the latest for the search for the passenger whose gun discharged inside atlanta's international airport over the weekend. and protest erupts in europe. covid cases are on the rise across the u.s. we'll be joined by dr. anthony fauci to talk about all of that as we head into the thanksgiving holiday. you are watching "morning joe," we'll be right back. e watching we'll be right back. you get more with aarp medicare advantage plans from unitedhealthcare. like $0 copays on tier 1 and tier 2 prescription drugs. ♪ wow! ♪ ♪ uh-huh. ♪ $0 copays on primary care visits. ♪ wow! ♪ ♪ uh-huh. ♪ and with unitedhealthcare, you get access to medicare advantage's largest provider network. ♪ wow! ♪ ♪ uh-huh. ♪ most plans even have a $0 premium. so go ahead. take 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lunged and grabbed the firearm which then discharged. police are looking for the suspect, kenny wells, he ran out the security line and exited the airport with a gun. let's bring in tom costello. i can't get shampoo through tsa check point, how does a guy have a gun and it's discharged and he grabs it and makes it out of the airport without authorities stopping him? >> reporter: to be clear, he did not get through the check point. it spotted something they should not have. he immediately lunged for it and remember he had a gun in there. thankfully nobody was hit and he grabbed the gun and ran out the exit. he was not on the secure side of the airport. he was still on this side of the airport. as you know at tsa check point, they have tsa officers there but no cops there. the police are within a few minutes of response. they are not standing right there. this caused a massive stampede on saturday, it happened at 1:30 in the afternoon. thousands of people scrambing and afraid of an active shooter. as they search for the suspect, they immediately identified them because he's given his id. they knew who they were looking for. the cop knew this was a wanted felon, kenny wells, he had a history with the atlanta police department and so now they are searching for hem. the other important element of this story is atlanta leads the nation in gun confiscation at tsa check points. they confiscated 450, that's more than one a day at this point. georgia has loose gun laws right now and other states that have high gun confiscation at tsa check points have loser gun laws. so to some extents this is what happens when you have loser gun laws but nonetheless police are looking for kenny wells right now. >> tom, mika and i have been traveling the past three our four months. there were a few empty seats here and there. even before we get into holiday seasons, you get on most flights, they are packed and people are getting ready to move again. i see great news for airlines and airports and all of us. what does this holiday weekend looked like since i guess so many people stayed at home last year, you are expecting a really busy one, are you? >> we are seeing break out traffic and travel we should say. 2.2 million passengers every single day during the thanksgiving period. we are getting back close to 2019 thanks to the travel levels. in all about 73 million people are traveling, keep in mind most are traveling by road. the reasons we are watching the airport, we had several airlines melt down, we had americans and southwest stranding thousands of customers, hundreds of thousands of customers so the pressure is on those airlines to in fact deliver on their promise, they streamline operations they have staffed up and they are ready for this. the big variable is weather. if they get thrown the weather cold ball, that can hammer things. wind and rain in the east coast, things are getting pretty good right now. keeping in mind how much pressure is on the airlines and americans have offered their pilots financial incentives to work over the holidays, the pilots have said no, the problem is not with us, it's management and they say scheduling software. that's why they had so many issues. southwest offered their people frequent flier points if they work over the holidays. the pressure is on for those airlines in particular, guys. >> tom, one final question circling back, pilots were denying the vaccine requirements. what cause that melt down? >> every single person i have talked to from line pilot and airlines, they all say this was not about a covid of pilot protests, zero chance of that. the problem was first of all southwest does not operate a normal hub and spoke program. if they get behind in one airport, delta owns atlanta, if they have a problem in atlanta, they have a lot of backup crews that can jump in and take over the next flight. southwest does not operate a typical hub program. they got behind because of weather in florida, then they had an atc and air traffic control for a few hours and they had military flight ops over that particular friday and saturday. they got behind and it snowballs and snowballs and it took them days to catch up. if this had been another typical holiday that had this program, southwest would have been okay. everybody denied this has anything to do of pilots protesting vaccines. i have been to 30 cities this year, i sat in front of an american airlines' pilot about two months ago, he was dead heavy he was going through another location and he was sitting behind me didn't know who i was and griping and complaining about having to be vaccinated and how this was absolutely against his rights st he should not have been vaccinated. he surrounded by paying passengers who are sitting there with masks on presumably they want to know they are safe. there is a bit of a dichotomy there in terms of the airlines trying to spread the message that you are safe on board and some pilots still specifically american airlines pilots, there is real reluctant there to get vaccinated. >> tom costello, thank you so much for your reporting this morning. thanks for being on. coming up, we know the verdict in the kyle rittenhouse's trial. president biden's reaction and how the defense attorney reacted and what he said how some members of congress came out and support of kyle rittenhouse and some offering him jobs. what the defense attorney thinks about that? that's next. that's next. as a dj, i know all about customization. that's why i love liberty mutual. they customize my car insurance, so i only pay for what i need. how about a throwback? ♪ liberty, liberty, liberty, liberty ♪ only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty, liberty, liberty, liberty ♪ (tiger) this is the dimension of imagination. ♪ ♪ as i observe investors balance risk and reward, i see one element securing portfolios, time after time. gold. your strategic advantage. just getting by. it's an ongoing struggle. that's why president 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states, that's something donald trump would never do. that's what we expect our presidents to do. i don't know what the jury saw. after the verdict comes in, we were not there. we were not there during oj's verdict. we did not hear everything that oj's jury heard. after the jury speaks, that's our system and the president said that and then he went onto say, we have to trust the jury system. we have to trust that it reminds me of what churchill says about democracy. democracy is it is worst form of government in the world other than every form of government that's ever created. but, it's the law and it's the best system in the world. our rule of law is the best in the world and i thought president biden's spoken statements there was exactly what we want to hear from republican or democratic president. >> the second statement, the one that was put out was a non-politics of it because it was the initial statement definitely drew blow backs from members of his own party who were upset at the verdict. what he said there was at the beginning. the president has said ahead of time that was what he was going to say one way or another. earlier in the year we hot some trouble during the floyd's case in minnesota. you are right, his predecessor would not have done that. he was happy to put his thumb on the scale any time he could. there was no norms. this president handles things differently but a later statement was a nod to politics as well. >> the thing is people get upset on twitter, let people say what they're going to say, president of the united states needs to say what joe biden says coming out of the helicopter. i will say that four years or eight years whoever the president is, respect the jury deliberation process. let's bring in charles komen, when i became a lawyer, my mentor says, here is the deal, jury they usually get it right. 10% of the time you are going to get a verdict that you just don't understand. it's going to work against you, you are going to think it's the worst verdict. for the most part it washes itself out. in this case, if people don't like the verdict, charles, i guess you probably agree with me, they need to change the law in wisconsin so there is not open carry of ar-15s. they need to change the law of wisconsin so this sort of reckless behavior is penalized by law. until they do that, jury follow the jury instruction, right? >> i do have to agree with you. a lot of people did not watch all the elements of the trial and all the different things that went on. they may not understand what it was that prompted the jury to make the decisions they made. they may not understand the facts that caused them to vendor the verdict they did. i do understand and i agree with you you have to take your verdict as you get your verdict the same way you take your jour jury. there is one friendly comment i have to say around president biden's comment. on a certain level you have to understand, what we do go forward, when you talk about periods of racial unrest in america, how we have the conversation about what happened to kyle rittenhouse and because of rittenhouse has greater implications because what happens now in a situation of greater periods of civil unrest and someone who does not like protesters decide to protest and decides to take advantage and use kyle rittenhouse. the law in kenosha was not necessary the best, there was an uphill battle the prosecution was facing. all of these things coalesce. from the moment rittenhouse pulls that trigger, he was going to be a martyr or a hero. >> and charles, again, i want to underline the point where people are angry and upset of the verdict, i get it. what i am talking to is what the president of the united states should or should not say and i am glad joe biden said what he said. he certainly understands people being up great and enough said. what frustrates me is they can continue to get angry but unless they start focusing on winning local state house races because everything i hear people complain about, i hear a lot of people complaining about the rittenhouse's verdict, i understand that but it's the law. change the law. elect local democrats to win races in wisconsin. i heard people complaining about gerrymandering, that does not happen. you know it does not sit down from the heaven. you said this last week. you were talking about the actual law for defense. the prosecutor had an uphill battle from day one because the law, because what the law was in wisconsin. >> you are correct. the question becomes what is the plan going forward. when you see a verdict like this when you have an outcome that does not work, that is the plan going forward? in addition to what i talked about last week with respect to the law, i talked about privilege. there is a certain level plays a role in what we saw and how it plays out with respect to rittenhouse. are these laws antiquated? and quite frankly another conversation that was a big part of what ended up happening in wisconsin was are we putting judges on a bench that's going to abide by the rule of law and not make things -- >> meanwhile, rittenhouse's lawyer is slammering republican members of congress say they want to offer rittenhouse a job, at least two republicans trying to hire rittenhouse. richards also reputed donald trump jr. in a tweet that's deleted encouraging people to support a gun rights organization that would award rittenhouse for his defense of gun rights. richards told "insider" he's an idiot. it speaks for itself. the defense attorney says he was following a trial. >> i did not approve of that. i am not suggesting that fox or some other network, i don't think a film crew is appropriate for something like this. >> so eddie glaude, there were really -- i can't even say unfortunate things that were said. i got to say there were things said that sounded like came from members of a fascious party. i want followers to be armed and dangerous. i want to be careful of the exact quotes but that was the general play of it. we don't want to give any of these people the attention. you look at what don jr. said about getting him an ar-15. i think people are dead now which caused enough damage of ar-15s. i can give one example after another. there is a growing list of quotes, republican members of congress calling for acts of violence or having campaign fund erasers where they are holding ar-15s or military style weapons and targeting other members of congress. we know what the arizona congressman did last week, an anime targeting a figure that was supposed to be aoc. we all ask republican leadership to condemn this. kevin mccarthy refused to condemn any of this. it's happening, this is how fascium grows and this is how violence erupts. this is why people stand up at trump events saying when do we get to start using our guns. >> you know joe, we can stipulate to a couple of things, bad law, bad case and even some bad lawyers. we can stipulate to that. we know that kyle rittenhouse has become across a ledge because the trial or the burden of a sense of panic in the country, there is a sense where kyle rittenhouse defended himself against the mob and like him we must defend ourselves because those who believe white americans are under sieged. here we have this young man is the poster child of the sense of panic and grievance that this country is changing. those folks want to defend division of america with violence. we saw january 26th and we hear and see it on television. part of what i think people wanted to hear from the president, at least i want to hear from the president, joe, is not only the kind of words we must respect the verdict of the jury. the jury's verdict enters an environment where violence is on the horizon, the threat of a kind of civil war in the country is real and people feel their lives are in jeopardy, i have a piece coming out of "the washington post" coming out about this. there is a kind of madness at the heart of the country rooted in this instance, that is embodied in kyle rittenhouse. he represents their desires and their angst and their ambitions, it's very dangerous. we have to recognize it as such. >> totally appreciate it. i agree with you. here is my point and i think it's critical that democrats especially take this on board, eddie. my point is this. after the jury comes back, respect the jury and change the laws. if you want to go out and have marches, awesome. the republican in me says what are you doing during those marches? are you getting people's names and taxes and are you asking them why you are marching? are you going to knock on doors in the campaign next year? are you going to make phone calls next year? i understand. here is the thing and i don't want people to get angry at me. i am just telling you what happened. >> right. >> a lot of democrats were marching in 2020, you know what republicans were doing? they were knocking on doors, no, you don't like it because of covid, i understand that. they were knocking on doors and making phone calls and they were doing the things that allowed them to shot democrats in the senate and house and local races and governor's races across the country. i guess what i am saying is organize, organize, organize but that organizing has to be about knocking on doors and making phone calls, planning signs in yards because that's how you change the law and that's how you make sure the next time something like this comes up the jury gets other instructions that actually respect rule and order. >> i hear you, we have been talking about this as long as i have been on the show. what you said is absolutely right. we need to change the law. what have we been saying throughout this trial? if it was a young black teenager with an ar-15 at a maga rally, even with the laws in the books on wisconsin, the law would not have been, it would not apply equally at all. you know as well as i know, even the self-defense law on the books, that young man would be dead or going to practice on prison right now. we have been talking about this for a long time there feels to be of two senses of justice. at this moment when it fails to appeal the process or change the law, does not map on the reality of the felt and live on experiences. what do you think? >> i think it makes sense. you are talking about what would have happened and would likely happen, i am talking about what did happen. let me just go one step back to where you were, i said it on the show if it were a 17-year-old with an ar-15 hanging around his neck, walking into a hot zone like that and going up to a police officer, this story would have ended there. he would have been told to get back in his car and go back where he came from or he'll be arrested for fill in the blank. people have talked about this and charles, maybe you can comment on this, too. people comment about the fact that this kid illegally carrying a gun, he was 17 years old. he walks up to cops and yeah, and walks up to cops where if -- i don't think, i think republicans can agree with this too or unless they want to lie to themselves. if an under age black kid with an ar-15 hanging around his neck and he walks up to police officers, that's the end of the story there. he'll get arrested. that seems obvious. >> that's the point i made on the show last week when we were talking about this in the midst of the trial. i do think that when you talk about the larger conversation, i think that's also what eddie and i are both getting at when you talk about where president biden landed in the discussion is not simply good enough to leave it in the hands of the jury for something that has such greater implications. if we were in a space where we knew that there were not going to be heighten periods of racial unrest in america such that would prompt the type of protest that left jacob blake a footnote in the story that started with him then we may be able to live with the conversation about this simply being about that jury. we know that is not true. you know and i know it. you know and i know that we are just one incident away from another series of protests. we are one car stop from another sort of explosion that happens all over the united states regarding racial reconciliation we have been dealing with for decades now. and so because of that, because we know we are likely to see these circumstances again. we can't say well, it's up to the jury or the law. we have the contextualize this. it was irresponsible for the president to limit his remarks of kenosha just to the jury, yeah, i agree with the jury and that's it. i understand why he came back and tried to clean it up on twitter with a larger statement and being more political. at the end of the day is important that we have these conversations in proper context in limiting this to what happened to rittenhouse despite the fact there was that law. >> that's not good. >> the three of us could sit down in about three minutes and writing a statement that we want the president to say. i think we are saying the same thing. at the same time if you were angry and upset then i understand that and let's change the law. let's organize, let's vote, let's make it etcetera and etcetera, that sort of thing. i agree. eddie, final thought, i think we are all saying pretty much the same thing here as far as respecting the jury but making a difference in changing things as we move forward. >> joe, i think we need to be concerned of what the tucker carlson and the matt gaetz and gosar and what all these folks are doing. don't be surprised if kyle rittenhouse is not speaking at the republican convention, don't be surprise if he's not put out there as a kind of example of white grievance defending itself and as a justification for arming yourselves to defend america. he's going to be the darling of c-pac, you notice this. we'll witness through him through the intensification and you know ahmaud arbery's case is coming. you know where we are coming from. >> in that note, you woke up. >> thank you, eddie and charles, i am sure we'll be talking to you soon with arbery. some developments to get to with covid. ahead of the thanksgiving holiday, the cdc on friday endorsed booster shots for all adults. the recommendation makes all adults eligible for booster shots six months with vaccinations with pfizer or moderna or with johnson & johnson vaccine. more people have now died from covid in 2021 than those who died in 2020. there have been just over 770,000 confirmed covid deaths in the u.s. since the pandemic began. 385,000 people died from the virus in the u.s. last year. the first death confirmed in early february, 2021's number passed that over the weekend based on john hopskin's data. let's bring in dr. anthony fauci. we'll try to get you to say something about thanksgiving like holidays that'll make their hair set on fire and jumping off of roofs attacking you. let's talk about, i was going to say some positive developments obviously, we have 200 million people fully vaccinated and we have like over 450 million shots in american arms. we got the pfizer pills that's coming. that's certainly good news and the infections were dropping and deaths were dropping. that's levelled off a little bit. how are we doing here as we move into the holiday season, 2021? >> we have our tool of disposal and that's vaccines. boosters are now essentially everyone 18 and older who have been vaccinated to begin with is eligible to get boosted. the boosted data of covid striking in the sense of increase in protection you get from a boost over and above the original vaccination is substantial. we are seeing that and israelis just reported they are seeing a dramatic enhancement of the protection. so if you are vaccinated and if you are eligible to be boosted, you can look forward to a holiday with your family with the usual precautions. when you are outside, go into an indoor congregate setting whether you not they are vaccinated, you should be wearing a mask. when you travel or in a crowded airport, wear masks. be careful, there is no reason why we can't enjoy the holidays with our family especially so many people vaccinated. for the unvaccinated, 60 million who are not vaccinated, those are the ones who are vulnerable dr. fauci, let's talk about the unvaccinated right now. i have friends who are unvaccinated. it's hard to move them. they read what they read and it's hard to move them. what can you tell me? what are the latest numbers on deaths and serious effects of covid. what percentage of those that are in icu wards in america that are unvaccinated. >> the overwhelming majority, if you look at the interviews of nurses and icu positions obviously because so many people get vaccinated and because vaccination is not 100% effective, you will see individuals or vaccinated getting through infections some will get hospitalized and have few will die. if you compare vaccinated verses unvaccinated, the people who are in the hospital, the people who are in the icus and people who die are overwhelmingly waited towards the unvaccinated. that's been that way all along and it's still that way. no doubt about that. >> dr. fauci, i would like to ask you about how the delta is doing. i met in my life and seen numbers of people who received the initial vaccines and have gotten a breakthrough i guess -- the assumption is delta variant, i am not sure if they know that for sure. what are the numbers if people who are boosted getting delta or get a break through case? >> great question, mika. first of all, it's delta, it's still 99 plus percent of the isolant in this country. the interesting thing on the data of how well booster protects. if you look at the antibody levels, they go up significantly high after the boost. data coming out of israel says right now unequivocally if you get boosted, the protection against infection, severe disease or what have you is significantly better following the boost than the peak protection following the two doses. it argues so much more favorably than if you are vaccinated, get boosted, if you are unvaccinated, get vaccinated and get a boost. it protects much better. good question, that's the answer. >> morning dr. fauci, i got my booster last night, so far just a sore arm. two questions for you, one would be if you could give us a sense, is there is any sort of geographic trend where we are seeing upticking in cases right now. what's the latest of vaccines for children under five years old. what is the timetable? >> regarding to geographic, remember we were hot in the south for a while, the places that getting colder, the red that you see in the red in the north and northeast which is cooler in the standpoint of hot signifying a number of infection, we are starting to see that. now, you see the map, it's scattered all over as people are going indoors rather than outdoors because of the cold weather. regarding children younger than five years old, right now studies are being done, five down to two and six months into two years, we should have those data sometimes in the first quarter of 2022. it's not going to be before that because you have to be careful and go very slowly when you are dealing children who are vulnerable than adults when it comes to this type of situation. >> dr. fauci, we look to you to see what's happening there and if things go badly we start to go nervous. there are some scenes out of austria and other parts of europe where infections are going up there, can you tell us what's happening there and is that a precursor of if that may happen in the united states for the next few months. >> it could be if we don't do what i have been talking about for some time, we have within our capability the ability to make that not happen. when you are looking at in europe particularly some of the vulnerable eastern european countries, they were much less vaccinated than some of the western european in the u.k., there were still breakthrough infections because they were pulling back on mitigation. they were understandably trying to open up the economy, okay, you don't have to wear masks, you can do things. you can do things when you are vaccinated. you can't just say it's all over, that's it. no more masks and we'll walk away from it and make believe it's not happening. that's what's going on in european country. we got to be careful and we got to continue to vaccinate people. we know boosters really help. if you are 18 or older and you have been vaccinated with moderna and pfizer six months ago or j&j, go get boosted, it really does help. please. >> katty kay, jump in. >> the rule of thumb that you should have six months between your shots, when ever your last covid shot was whether moderna or johnson & johnson, you are due for a booster, is that the rule of thumb? >> if it's j&j, it's two months after because the j&j likely should have been. moderna and pfizer, six months. the reason it is because we want to give immunity response a chance to mature. by mature, we mean the cells that make the antibodies, as you give them a few months, it gets much stronger. the second question, we don't know. we are hoping that booster shot given the increase - mainly have a much more durable response which we are hoping for. if that's not the case then we may have to get it frequently. i am hoping we'll see a much more durable response than we have seen with the original one around six months or so starting to wane. >> dr. fauci, it's always really great to have you on. thank you very much. we appreciate it and we hope you have a wonderful thanksgiving. >> all right, access to the vaccine in africa is getting a boost from one start up company which sent a fleet of drones to drop pfizer vaccines over villages in africa in effort to provide for access to doses. joining us now with more on that riley griffin. it's very good to have outline the show this morning. tell us more about this effort and the use of drones even to get the doses where they need to goes. >> thanks mika, this is a story of equity and access. the virus knows no borders or bounds. to get everyone vaccinated in the world is our mission right now to end the pandemic. turn to ghana where 3% of the country has been vaccinated compare that to the u.s. where we are hitting that 60% threshold. it's critical that the country too keep pace with the rest of the world as well as other low and middle income countries. pfizer turns to a partner zip line, california based start up. what they did was use drones to send out vaccine doses to the most rural parts of the country. it's an amazing story and it's particularly impressive given the challenges that the pfizer vaccine faces. >> riley, right now it feels like we are not from the united states, we are talking about europe. the situation in germany is worst than what we have seen before. beyond this program, can you give us a sense, just to lay the land, what is where the virus replacing rates right now throughout the continent and the vaccination rates elsewhere. is this program and others like it will be able to use to get these doses across conference? >> absolutely. this is about scaling out a model. this is a test drive in ghana. what we see zip line do is hit these challenges head on. the pfizer and biontech vaccine. that's lower than the coldest temperature ever recorded on the surface of the earth. >> pretty cold. >> that's a real hurdle when it comes to infrastructure. when you look to europe and the u.s., a lot of places have the technology and have those ultra cold freezers to be able to distribute that vaccine, it's not just a question of supply, it's about distribution and so what they are doing here is equipping drones with coolers that can ultimately shuttle that vaccine to the places that needed most. we are talking about boosters with dr. fauci a moment ago but this was about the first regiment that people need. >> so with those images of the drones dropping pfizer and moderna but what about getting the actual shots in arms. it's one thing to get it there and then we saw the children, talk about the actual process. once it lands and getting the process. those drones are going out every four minutes and when they get there, they don't land. they're parachute boxes into the ground. you can send a specific number of doses. if a rural clinic needs 37 doses, that's how many are going into the container. that drone is returning back to pick up another 15 or 20. so this is highly targeted and once they drop to the ground, the local clinic can just pick it up and what's amazing is these are being kept at refrigerator temperatures, the lead time is short. they go from these freezers and temperatures of refrigeraors and the hope is you are moving quickly and you are going from doses from a box and doses into arms immediately. >> healthcare reporter riley griffin, thank you so much. >> come back. >> an extraordinary journalist for bloomberg. >> thank you so much for being with us. at least five people are dead and 40 are injured after an suv drove through a christmas parade in waukesha. the moment of impact was caught on camera. >> four senior law enforcement officials tell nbc news police are questioning a person of interests who may have a long criminal history. those sources say the suspect was in another incident. tom winter will join us at the top of this latest of the investigation. >> based on tom's reporting and others, the police right now are saying this is not, they do not believe this is an active terrorism, international or domestic terrorism, it appears someone fleeing another fight and just an extraordinary terrible senseless tragedy. our thoughts and prayers with everybody there. just mika, just absolutely a nightmare. still ahead on "morning joe," building back with budget gimmicks, steve ratner is breaking down the bottom line for the deficits when it comes to the president's agenda. a federal judge is laying the blame at the feet of the former president. those details are next on "morning joe." details are next "morning joe." 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( ♪♪ ) what a pain in the... alice? if it's "let's wrap this up" season, it's walgreens season. what happens if you ever need to miss work for a long period of time? why would i miss work? i don't know. you could sprain your ankle, throw out your back... get hit by a school bus. or a regular bus. get kicked by a horse. fall off a ladder. bathtub mishap. polio. boating accident. stuck by a fork. rabies. wolves. scurvy. talk to us about disability income insurance today. feel comfortable about tomorrow. massmutual. my point is simple. under the constitution congress has the role and a responsibility when it comes to certifying votes. you look at 1876, there was a contested election and serious allegations of election fraud and what congress did in 1876, a point of electoral commission -- >> you know what you are laying out is an argument here is not what people gathered and chanting things like mike pence were talking about. you know that. >> i think the violence that happened on that day was horrific. democrats and a lot of the press decided to engage in insinuaing rhetoric rather than acknowledge voter fraud is real. >> there is no evidence of fraud that would have really drawn the outcome of the election into that. you know that. >> and he said that - in fact, dozens of federal courts, had heard this. federal judges appointed by donald trump heard it. federal judges appointed by everybody had heard it and every single one of those federal judges said there were no fraud that would change the outcome and even the most conservative judges on the conservative courts said, listen, we ought to look at what happened in pennsylvania because they had the same concern i had and a lot of people had, you had the pennsylvania supreme court changing some of the rules instead of the legislatures. even when they said we should look at this case, they said, those changes would not have impacted the outcome of this election. we need to do this for future elections and lay out for the president. it's disengenerous saying oh we want to check it on their merritt and even rudy giuliani was saying he was not talking about fraud because he didn't want to lose his license because there is no example of voter fraud. unless of course you read crap being sent to you on facebook or if you read regularly a website that's run by a chinese religious colts which shockingly a lot of people do. >> meanwhile, a federal judge is blaming former president trump that spread the lie of the insurrection. he didn't come to washington, d.c. to storm the capitol. he and others were called to washington, d.c. by an elected officials prompted to walk to the capitol by an elected official. he said go, there i am going to go there too. people were told lies and falsehoods and told our election was stolen when it was not. >> another federal judge saying that because every federal judge had said that. the judge went onto say you were a pawn. >> mike barnicle is with us, hey, mike, you look at this federal judge who's saying you were lied to donald trump and other election officials. there is no widespread election fraud. this election was not rigged. >> yeah, you tell them the truth, the truth is something pretty rare today by the media, just the electronic media. people don't believe what they hear or see. >> the madness in waukesha yesterday and the idea we have to expose ourselves to ted cruz carrying this madness and false proof of voter fraud, you have to wonder what's going on with this country that people buy into these horrendous false assertions made by people, people like ted cruz or people like too many others and unfortunately republicans. joe, mika, sitting here listen to it and think about it and thinking about your grandchildren is depressing. >> i hear you. there is this, two fox news reporters resigned from the network in the wake of the january 6th capitol riot. they have regularly appeared on the network for a decade saying the three-part series represented a collection of in coherent mongering and having damaging information. they found the two writes in part the films message is clear. the u.s. government is targeting patriotic americans in the same manner and with the same tool that it used to target al-qaeda. they go onto write, this is not happening and we think it's dangerous to pretend it's. if a person with such a platform shares such misinformation, loud enough and long enough, there are americans who believe and act upon it. they go onto write the film was not an isolated incident, it was the most egregious example of a long standing trend. by the reporting of the news division of fox news itself, joining us now the host of the podcast on brand with donny deutsche, what's going on with the creation of these types of production? >> we talk about a lot on the show years ago if i want to put on a kind of detergent to clean faster, i have to go through his or her hoops and regulations. look, this thing right here of fox news, this is why mike was so upset, mike is usually cranky this morning because of ted cruz and also that we now live in a world that we can really get their information and you can find justification anywhere you go. this is a problem without solution. no essential nervous system today. there is just, they live on their phone and they live on the media and this is something the generations have to deal with. there is a devil inside that phone and inside our ability to get news the way we want it and how we want it. this is the world we live in right now. speaking of which let's go to a guide who's a tiktok star and former official, steve ratner, you should see him dance, it's very impressive. the house passed the build back better bill plan last week and you have charts on the cost of the bill and how it could affect the budget. this matters especially about whether their budget tricks or playing it straightforward because manchin is going to want this to be about revenue neutral as possible. and of the effect of inflation and more debt piling on top of $29 trillion of debt. >> sure, first of all, you have to acknowledge, it's a historic piece of legislation and it has an extraordinary range and new programs and important programs from climate change to pre-k to all sorts of things we need for this country. i am all for the idea of leaning in on those issues. the question is how do you lean on them and where is it physically responsible? what happens over the ten-year period and what you can see here is when you break it down year by year, you get spending occurring more and creating more deficits and while the revenues come in in the later years, some of us are old enough to remember that "popeye" cartoon that says i will gladly pay you tuesday for hamburgers today. that's a little bit of what's going on here. we are running a high inflation economy at the moment. to add $150 billion plus or minus to the deficit the next five years is adding to the inflationary pressure to our economy. >> the bigger concern is the next issue which is the question of others. democrats are by no means, a lot of it was in donald trump's tax cut in 2017 but what you do is you basically create a program and you say it's going to expire in a year or two years and of course once the program is expired, they get renewed and the cost gets added back in. what i listed is the child tax care credits and expanding affordable care act in 2025 and so forth. they would have substantial costs totaling $2. trillion above the cost of legislation. if all these programs were extended and washington programs rarely dies, they get extended, you are looking at $4.3 trillion of total cost of this bill relative to the $2.4 trillion which was what the official scorekeeper scored at because of the year's gimmicks. i call them gimmicks because they are gimmicks. if you put these two pieces together, you can see that. you see to use the word, you are essentially seeing deficits going all the way out throughout the full ten years life of this program, $200 billion a year and in most years as much as $300 billion a year and other careers total deficits impact to the negatives. this is a problem we are leaving for future congresses and future presidents and generations to have to deal with. i wish they are paid for in a responsible way. for everybody saying republicans are reckless, we have been saying that the last four years. we can put that aside, yes, they have been extra reckless. let's talk about democrats. a couple of things here, you are saying this bill if signs into law by your estimate will add $150 billion per year to the deficit over the next five years and the total is about $3 trillion overall. is that correct? >> these are not my estimates, these are congressional budget congress. the first part of what you said is absolutely correct. $150 billion a year deficit. congress extends these program are going to expire in a year. you tell me whether congress is likely to take a child care tax credit away. they have to try to figure out some way to pay for it which was not on the table at the moment. >> the next question is given your concerns of inflation and concerns as you said in the new york times you share with this administration that larry summer shares with the administration, what is the impact of another $150 billion in deficits spending short term and long-term over the next five years through inflation? >> i would not want to suggest the size of our economy in a given year will be massive inflation, that's irresponsible of me to suggest. when you have an inflation pressure and as we well do, the last thing you want to do is add to it. if you promise the american people a balance program where you are not going to add to the deficit, this is one of the administration's biggest selling point it's not going to add to the deficit then you have to have a program that reasonable people could look at it's not going to add to the deficit. it's hard to see it does not add to the deficit. you have a modest increase in inflation and i don't want to over state that. >> donny deutsche. >> the good news on this bill obviously and the white house still has not gotten out there properly is the granularity. healthcare will pay for aid. the word spending is being heard on this bill. >> are you concerned of the inflationary pressure? >> i am concerned about it. they said it was up 6%. that's something this generation and you and i and others around here we understand how inflation affects people's psyches. heading into 2022 and midterm and beyond is going to be a problem. steve lays out it, the one issue is inflation, that's something people feel in their pocketbook on a day-to-day basis. it's not the economy, it's their life. >> on inflation, the president is expected to tomorrow to make his choice of fed chair, that role plays a significant influence on interest rates. the president takes his time with certain decisions and the process is sometimes torture and he likes to hear from all sides and angles. the timetable is tomorrow. explain to the audience why and a lot of people may not know what i does. why is it so important and what do you think the president needs to do? it controls the money supply, it has a massive effect on inflation. and this is not and i would not call it a dark choice but the president is facing a choice between two people who have distinct views of philosophy about this, about how much the fed should lean in and keep interest rates lower for longer. and so the president is up against the timing of the confirmation and requires him to make a decision the next couple of days. that's what's at stake here. those of us who would like to see the fed start to dial back its program and do of course raise interest rates believe that chairman powell is the better bet for that assignment. we'll see what the president decides. >> we spent this morning looking at what's in the news today and what's in the news is you got one party talking about policies and how to get through it and what legislation is passed and you have another party who's still defending january 6th and members of congress defending how they contributed to january the 6th and other members are talking about how americans seem to be armed and dangerous and acting irresponsible. it's a striking contrast if only democrats knew how to put that contrast in front of the american people. i know you have a question for steve ratner, it's fascinating, we are talking about congressional budget numbers here and the impact on the federal debt, the impact on inflation and you have republicans who are telling people to go out and be armed and dangerous. >> joe scarborough, you have raised the most two important points this morning. 450 guns confiscated. 450. steve, enough of that, i don't want to go on a rant but my question to you is this, when was the last time if ever a true scalpel, a forensic scalpel was taken to the budget, the federal budget of the united states of america including the defense department looking for waste eliminated and what would happen do you think in your mind if this dream ever came true? >> i suspect my lifetime likely the answer to that question has to be never. there is been talk over the years of things called zero base budget where you start all over again and you have to justify programs why there is an affirmative decision to keep it rather than a negative decision of let's not get rid of it. it does not happen and i think if it did happen, we would find a lot of stuff that we don't need to do anymore that we can eliminate. let me make one other aside which relates to your question. it needs to be recognize as a word of caution, as wonderful these programs are to do all the things that donny was talking about for the american people, we have not created programs on this massive scale probably since the new deal or even if then the list of programs the number of things that have to be stood up in order to implement this plan is vast. for those of us with a slight degree of skepticism of the federal government ability to do that, i worry these will not implemented effectively, they start to read stories of programs arriving and i think it's incumbent on the administration. it will be a bad day if these programs are not well-implemented. >> steve, such a great point. think about all the people that fdr put in charge, a fighting world war ii. and you say world war ii, well, this is nothing like that. if you look at the numbers, you just lifted from the congressional budget office, a 4 $.3 trillion total cost, that's in effect and how much money in adjusted dollars in today's dollars that we spent fighting world war ii. when i hear progressives saying this bill does not spend enough money, just -- it -- i feel like they're -- their just detached at least from budgetary reality. >> yeah, i think there is -- i think there's absolutely that -- put it in another context, the obama stimulus was about 800 some billion dollars. there was much criticism about some of it, the timing of how it got spent, what it got spent on, things like that, and so this is that on steroids. i can tell you from a little community that i go to in the surveillance which got $3 million of stimulus money. i read my local newspapers, i find local newspapers really interesting. they tell you what's going on at the ground level. they got $3 million of stimulus. they haven't figured out how to spend it yet. getting this money into the ground in an effective way is going to be a huge challenge for this administration. >> steve ratner, donna deutsche, and mike barnicle, thank you all very much. we'll be joined by two attorneys general taking part in a huge investigation into instagram's harmful impact on teens and children. 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what's an office? or solving a workplace challenge that's yet to come. whatever the new world of work takes your business, the world works with servicenow. look, if your wireless carrier was a guy, you'd leave him tomorrow. not very flexible. not great at saving. you deserve better—xfinity mobile. now, they have unlimited for just $30 a month. $30. and they're number 1 in customer satisfaction. his number? delete it. i'm deleting it. so break free from the big three. xfinity internet customers take the savings challenge at xfinitymobile.com/mysavings. or visit an xfinity store to learn how our switch squad makes it easy to switch and save hundreds. welcome back to "morning joe." it was the sex pistols that you're hearing. that can only mean one thing. yeah, nbc sports analyst and co-host of men in blazers and the man, the myth, the legend that was reborn in america, i speak of course of the great roger bennett. he's best selling author of "reborn in the usa" an englishman's love letter to his chosen home. so much to talk about from this weekend. we have, of course, mighty liverpool just doing what they always do at home, obliterating arsenal. i'm actually starting to feel sorry for arsenal, and then manu sacking a manager who i really liked. it's a shame they sacked him before i figured out how to actually pronounce his name. and then chelsea, those petro dollars still keeping chelsea on top of the premier league, take us through it all. >> a lot of american story lines this week. let's start with the marquee game, fourth versus fifth, boston red sox in liverpool hosting a game, owned by stan -- of the los angeles rams. it's always a spicy affair. even the managers going out on the sidelines. this is the british version of lebron james and isaiah stewart, let them fight. never poke the bear, especially a scout's bear because liverpool came to life. oh, the head of liverpool with a finish cooler, then a polar bear's toenails. liverpool essentially in this one, the pak of their goals. this the third, a thing of beauty. liverpool unleashing bee gee's level harmony, you come to me on a summer breeze, keep me warm in your love. you need to show, joe, how deep is your love. league leading, god bless the egyptian king. liverpool keeps pace with chelsea and steam rolled the city, an effortless 3-0 turnout, just over a week since he -- he found to deliver a hershey kiss. america, the big news of the weekend, manchester united owned by the tampa bay buccaneers continue -- i don't know how to describe it. a flailing manager, a lovely man, but they faced watford who ran rampant over united caucus. it's the closest mutiny may come to witnessing in our lifetime. united have lost five of seven. they are worse than kid rock, and yesterday they fired their manager, a club legend as a player. hard to watch him humanly. he was a man who loved the club and realized he was killing the thing he loved. we've all done that. it's unclear who will follow him. united are essentially a massive global billboard rather than a football team to lead them, joe, it's one of the hardest jobs in sports. >> especially if you have ronaldo there and nobody really knows exactly what to do with him. before we go, i want to share with you since you're interested in being an american, my gram mom from dalton, georgia, she had three sayings, all right? >> please. >> the first saying was -- well, that just takes the rag off the churn. that's number one. >> that was one of them. >> you've heard that. i say that around here. >> yes, you do. >> number two, no good deed goes unpunished. >> that is so true. that is so true. >> that's some of that north georgia wisdom, and number three, i think the one that i heard the most. never poke a skal spare. >> i think she also said why do we get out of bed in the morning if not for shout and froi da. >> she didn't say either of those. >> god speed, god bless. >> god speed, god bless, roger, courage. >> all right, roger, thank you very much i think. and still ahead on "morning joe," what led to the not guilty verdict for kyle rittenhouse. one of our next guests says it has much to do with the price tag of his defense. plus, we're following the very latest from the police invest in wakesha, wisconsin, after an suv plowed through a christmas parade killing five people and injuring dozens of others. "morning joe" is back in one minute. ning joe" is back in one minute have a plan to lower costs for america's working families. lower costs of healthcare premiums and the price of prescription drugs. pay less for electric bills by moving to clean energy. and do it all by making the ultra-wealthy pay their fair share of taxes. it'd be a win for the everyday american family. right when they could really use one. congress, let's get this done. . at least five people are dead this morning after an suv plowed through a christmas parade in waukesha, wisconsin. nbc news senior national correspondent tom lamas has the latest. >> the cheers and marching of a wisconsin christmas parade, a tradition here for nearly 60 years turning to screams and chaos. >> oh, my god! >> that speeding red suv ramming through a barricaded street and plowing through a sea of people injuring more than 40, many of them children. officials confirming five people have died as they work to notify loved ones. >> we have multiple casualties. we need multiple 10-52s. >> reporter: the terrifying scene unfolding sunday afternoon just west of milwaukee in waukesha, wisconsin. according to witnesses the suv careening down the street at a high rate of speed. one video showing the car nearly hitting a toddler. the vehicle slamming through barriers and striking parade marchers and spectators. terrified onlookers scattering in all directions. >> and i saw people on the ground. there's blood and it was really bad. >> reporter: parents separated from children desperately trying to find them. >> i've got 30 down! >> reporter: one officer opening fire in an effort to stop the vehicle. >> shots fired, shots fired. >> reporter: four senior law enforcement officials briefed on the matter tell nbc news that authorities in wisconsin are questioning a person of interest and that he may have a significant criminal history. those sources also say they believe the driver may have been fleeing an earlier knife fight. officials issuing a shelter in place order as they continue to canvas the streets. >> we question that everyone continue to stay away from the scene. >> reporter: now this beloved holiday tradition on main street marked by ribbons of police tape. >> today our community faced horror and tragedy in what should have been a community celebration. >> our thanks to nbc's tom llamas for that reporting. let's bring in nbc investigative reporter tom winter. tom, was he fleeing police or just driving at an insane speed through this parade? >> it's a great question. it's one of the things we're trying to get more information on, which is why this individual chose the route that they did. essentially what happened is there was a knife fight in a local park, that this person of interest was apparently involved in, according to fife law enforcement officials. in the course of that, he decided to flee the scene and then went through this christmas parade route as you heard killing fife five injuring over 40. a number of them children as well. obviously very tragic. i think a key couple of questions here we would like to get some more answers on, which is was he being pursued at all. we don't know whether that's the case or not at this point. number two, why did he choose this route, looking at various maps in the layout of this city. obviously not the only route he could have taken. obviously was clearly marked out. we saw the barricades he was plowing through. not a surprise there was a parade along this route and obviously not a surprise once he ran into people. based on his criminal history, he was recently charged on november 5th in connection with a domestic violence and domestic assault incident, also resisting arrest. if, in fact, this person of interest who's being questioned turns out to be the actual suspect. that's the reason why we're not naming this person yet. police have not said this person is a person of interest. until they say he is, in fact, the suspect and is somebody they are going to charge or him or charge him, we're not going to name that person at this point. that's just kind of standard procedure the way we operate around here. when we get some more details, we'll be able to get that out. >> so tell me, talked to you a couple of hours ago about what you're learning on the ground there. for people waking up on the west coast or in other time zones, can you talk about police officers and others telling you they do not believe that this is an act of terrorism either international or domestic terrorist. >> right, so all indication at this stage of the investigation, and the reason why we're so cautious saying, look, this is what we have from a preliminary standpoint, and it's still in the early stages of the investigation. say they look at something on a laptop or a phone, they get access to it through a search warrant that helps push them a different way when it comes to motive, that evidence that guides them as to what they should be looking at, as to why this person did what they did. right now we don't know if they've been able to go through those devices. we want to be a little bit cautious in saying that this is early in the investigation. but as you said, joe, there are no indications based on the people we've spoken with at this time that there's any sort of ties to a foreign inspired terrorist attack, something along the lines of isis. we've seen vehicle attacks in the past. we have no indication there's any sort of domestic terrorism attack here, so anything that's tied to, say, racial or ethnic motivations, and we also have not seen anything at this point that ties it to some sort of retaliation for the rittenhouse verdict as well, so, again, early in the investigation we got more details from our law enforcement contacts. but at this point there's nothing that's pushing us in that direction. >> ooh, all right, nbc's tom winter, thank you very much for your reporting on this. we now turn to friday's verdict in the trial of kyle rittenhouse. a jury finding him not guilty on all counts. the teen was on trial for fatally shooting two people and injuring a third during protests in the city last year. here's what president biden had to say when first asked about the verdict. >> look, i stand by what the jury has concluded. the jury system works, and we have to abide by it. >> later in the day, biden said in a white house statement while the verdict in kenosha will leave many americans feeling angry and concerned, myself included, we must acknowledge that the jury has spoken. >> two things can be true at once. election bring in senior editor at the dispatch and columnist for time, david french, and professor at georgetown university law center and msnbc legal analyst, paul butler, so david, i have wanted to talk to you about this case for some time because you and i, we both consider ourselves to be supporters of the second amendment, even though we go back and forth on it. i think i want far more expansive background checks and also want really far more expansive background checks on military style weapons. but be that as it may, we both believe the second amendment says what the second amendment says and agreed with heller. that said, i would think for me at least instead of -- instead of republican congressmen and second amendment rights supporters celebrating this guy, i would think this is the caricature that you and i have had to fight against our entire life about gun owners because all the gun owners i know, every one that i grew up with in georgia, in alabama, in mississippi, in florida would look at this -- and upstate new york, would look at this guy and go, my god. my god, what's this kid doing with a gun? your thoughts. >> well, i mean, when you see smoke rising from your city, you can one, believe, hey, the police need to be implementing as quickly and as -- as quickly as possible law and order, and two, that 17-year-olds should not be running towards those flames with guns. that this is not wise. that this is foolish, that you're risking -- you're risking exactly the kind of incident you had here where he didn't actually end up protecting a bunch of people. he ended up being under siege himself and using his gun to protect himself. so what happened here was not an example of responsible gun ownership. what happened here was an example of incredibly irresponsible behavior. now, does it make him guilty of murder, the fact that he behaved irresponsibly and he shouldn't be there, and this is what a lot of people got confused in which they were thinking about this case, that his irresponsible action meant that he was going to be guilty of a crime, but this was profoundly irresponsible. imposing order in the midst of civil unrest is one of the most difficult tasks of law enforcement. and the last thing you need in the middle of that is a 17-year-old with a weapon that he shouldn't have in a place that he shouldn't be trying to impose order by himself. that is utterly irresponsible and celebrating that is going to mean that some small percentage of people who hear that celebration and see that celebration are going to think that they want to be like him. >> well, and let's, david, talk about this again. and doing this because we probably come from a vantage point on guns that a lot of people that are watching the show don't come at, but this is what i said after "rust," a completely different situation, but whether you're talking about being an actor on a set of a movie or whether you're talking about a 17-year-old kid illegally taking a gun, a military style weapon to a place, know your gun. be familiar with your gun. know it forwards and backwards, don't -- you know, don't pick up a gun. and i know people who have done training to have a weapon in hostile situations, and they tell me, it's extraordinarily difficult training and they go through all the different things they have to do. again, the level of recklessness here is just remarkable. >> it really -- it really is. i mean, this is what you have to -- and i said it before, i'm going to say it again. imposing order in an atmosphere of civil unrest is extremely difficult. this is not something you do with the snap of your fingers. this is something that trained individuals should be doing. tension, the tension is incredibly thick in the air. the atmosphere of threat, the atmosphere of violence, the potential for things to go wrong as they did here, as they did here, is off the charts. and so the absolute last thing you should be saying to a 17-year-old is grab a gun and go downtown. that is the last thing. but we have seen in far right circles when far right circles we have seen this guy celebrated and celebrated and celebrated, and like i said, most people are going to look at that and say that's absurd. that's twitter weirdness, that's online subculture weirdness, but there's a small percentage of people who look at things like that and they look at that celebration, and they say, that's -- i want to be that. that's is what i want to be. that is who -- what i want to do. and that's what makes this extraordinarily dangerous. >> david, i wish it was just twitter subculture. you also have members of congress who -- republican members of congress who were celebrating this guy and actually having videos saying you need to be armed and dangerous. how much concern does that cause you? >> well, of course, i mean, what we have to realize is there's a symbiotic relationship between these far right online circles and some of these members of congress. they feed off of each other. and again, what is often online does not just stay online. i mean, this is -- you know, there were calls for vigilantes to come to kenosha at the time of these shootings. and we have seen this with january 6th, what starts online and what builds in the fever swamps online doesn't just stay online, which is, again, one of these reasons why a lot of these keyboard warriors sitting there posturing boldly in his support, not that he's guilty or innocent. this was a matter for the jury to decide, and the jury reached a decision base ed on the facts that i think is entirely reasonable. what they're doing is they're stoking and they're building a fever out there that we've seen spill into streets on january 6th, we saw it in kenosha. if they keep doing it, we're going to see it again. >> i'm sorry, david, one final question and then i'll get to our other guests before getting back to you, but i'm struck by your comments, again, as an ardent supporter of the second amendment, which i completely agree with, the lunacy of these open carry laws. first of all, if i'm carrying, i don't want anybody to know what i'm carrying. so why carry. the second thing is if -- it's hard for me to figure out what open carry does other than virtue signal and trigger other people when they're walking around with ar-15s hanging around their necks when they go into convenience stores or when they go in the middle of riots. you've talked about this. explain the dangers of open carry. >> well, what we've got here is a situation where parts of the right is sort of open carrying of an ar-15, sometimes to protests, for example, anti-lockdown protests. sometimes protesting outside people's homes into the middle of riots. what it does is it creates an atmosphere of menace. it creates an atmosphere of danger. there's an intentional act of intimidation here that is going on. and in some corners of the far right it's become sort of fashionable. it's become fashionable to carry this around like you're s.e.a.l. team 6, to try to look like you're sort some or the amateur special forces soldier. instead what you're doing is you're creating provocation, you're escalating tensions. you're menaing other people, which has a direct impact on whether they feel free to exercise their first amendment rights, and there's a long history in the united states of laws restricting people from going out armed offensively to the terror or the fear of the public, and you really have to ask yourself are these people doing exactly that? are they going out armed offense ively with the goal to strike fear into the hearts of the members of the public or strike fear into the hearts of public officials. or going openly armed outside somebody's home. this is, again, what we're doing is we're creating an extraordinarily tense situation on purpose menacing people on purpose, and then what ends up happening is sadly is that provocation erupts. that violence erupts. in this case it erupted directly against kyle rittenhouse and he had a right to defend himself. in other circumstances, somebody went openly armed, the mcmichaels went openly armed after ahmaud arbery for no good reason at all, and then gunned him down in the streets. and so this open armed provocative menacing lifestyle is deeply dangerous, and these menaingly open armed actions are deeply dangerous. that's the opposite of responsibility. >> david french, as always, thank you so much for being with us. we appreciate it. hey, paul, let's talk about the actual case itself inside the courtroom. certainly the majority of legal analysts and experts that we were talking to beforehand were saying that the prosecution had a heavy burden to carry and most likely weren't going to be able to carry it. i'm curious what your thoughts are afterwards, and talk about also the piece you wrote about how kyle rittenhouse's legal defense fund helped him a great deal. >> so joe, the jury's verdict does not mean that they bought the boy scout image of rittenhouse that the defense presented, that he had just gone to this black lives matter protest to render medical aid. what it means is they weren't persuaded beyond a reasonable doubt, they weren't 95% certain that mr. rittenhouse was guilty and so they had to acquit him. but the jurors love in kenosha. i can't imagine they're happy about a reckless and dangerous 17-year-old patrolling their streets with a semi-assault weapon. they may be concerned as their verdict is interpreted as inviting other people to do that. and i think it's important to understand and that's why i wrote the piece in today's "washington post" that mr. rittenhouse won his case because he had the best defense that money can buy. his $2 million legal defense fund enabled him to retain o.j. simpson's lawyer and so now in the eyes of the law, mr. rittenhouse is just as innocent of homicide as o.j. simpson. the money also let the defense lawyer put on before the trial two moot trials with fake jurors where they tried out one trial where mr. rittenhouse took the stand, another trial where he did not take the stand. he did much better in front of the fake jurors when he took the stand, which informed the decision that he would take the stand in front of real jurors. and so i think it's important to realize that his money, as much as any other factor, is why mr. rittenhouse walked. >> good morning, paul, this is eddie glaude, i wanted to ask the question now that we've come -- we're past the rittenhouse case, and we're waiting on a decision, well, the arbery case, what do you think is on the horizon there? it's different kind of money, different sort of situation, but it presents an interesting sort of set of challenges. tell us a little bit about what you think we should be prepared for with the arbery decision. >> so, every case is different with different sets of facts, and in fact, i don't think that the defendants who killed mr. arbery have the same quality of defense and probably not the same resources that mr. rittenhouse had, and so we saw when travis mcmichael, the shooter, took the stand, he was not nearly as effective as kyle rittenhouse when he testified. indeed, eddie, when i listened to travis mcmichael testify about how these three white men hunted down and shot an african american man after demanding that he justify his presence on public streets, i was reminded of slave capture, and in fact, the georgia citizen arrest law that the defendants are relying on comes from georgia law passed back in the day that was about letting white civilians capture runaway enslaved people. >> paul butler, thank you very much for being on this morning. thank you for your insight and analysis. and still ahead on "morning joe," a look at how americans are sizing up the white house. we've got a new poll showing numbers on that front. and what some aides are calling a turn point for the president. plus, one former trump adviser has a plan to keep the ex-president from running again. to explain to trump that he could be the biggest loser in american politics. and a note, the new episode of joe's podcast is out now, joe talks to pulitzer prize winning author thomas ricks on the brilliance of george washington, how james madison saved american from the illiberalism of donald trump, why general sherman was the greatest soldier in u.s. history, and what we should learn from 20 years of military misadventures. it's available now on spotify, apple music, or wherever you get your podcasts. we'll be right back. ♪♪ ♪ vo: just getting by, it's an ongoing struggle. that's why president biden and democrats in congress have a plan to lower costs for america's working families. lower costs of healthcare premiums and the price of prescription drugs. pay less for electric bills by moving to clean energy. and do it all by making the ultra-wealthy pay their fair share of taxes. it'd be a win for the everyday american family. right when they could really use one. congress, let's get this done. - [narrator] meet the ninja foodi family. with pressure cookers that steam press. 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[ cheers and applause ] >> the senate is hoping to vote on the bill before christmas. every democratic senator will need to support the package for it to pass there. let's bring in the host of "way too early" and white house bureau chief at "politico," jonathan lemire, professor at princeton university, eddie glaude jr., and msnbc contributor and best selling author of "the confidence code" series, katty kay. good to have you all with us this morning. >> why don't we just start with the last person we saw in that shot, katty kay, nancy pelosi who now has -- was the guiding force in pushing through the affordable care act, the guiding force in pushing through covid relief earlier this year, the transportation bill and now build back better, certainly you look at her resume of what she's been able to shepherd through the house and i heard one cynic after another this was never going to happen. let's start with nancy pelosi, she rates as one of the successful speakers of all time, doesn't she? >> i remember after the affordable care act passed that barack obama owed nancy pelosi flowers for the rest of her life, and i think joe biden joins that now with pelosi's ability to get the votes. this was a really tough passage. we saw all of the division within house democrats, those who didn't want to vote on this until the build back better was actually linked and didn't want to vote on the early infrastructure, the hard infrastructure bill until this bill was going to pass as well. there was a lot of dissent amongst progressives in her caucus. she had to deal with moderates in her caucus at various stages. it was not a pretty process, but she got it, and she got both the hard infrastructure bill voted on and she got the soft infrastructure bill voted on. and we've always said no one can count votes like nancy pelosi, and even when it was looking rough for her, democrats in the white house and on capitol hill were reminding us when she gets these votes through, people won't remember what it looked like getting these votes through. they'll just remember that they passed. now of course it has to get out to the people. it has to be felt around the country. that's going to take a little longer. >> jonathan lemire, we talked about nancy pelosi, let's talk about what happened on the other side of pennsylvania avenue where you had joe biden who came in telling everybody i can get things done, and you look at his numbers that have been dropping, dropping, dropping because he hasn't gotten a lot of legislation done. there have just been a lot of democrats in the halls of congress yelling at each other and talking to reporters. now a massive infrastructure package drops, passes, now this massive build back better bill passes, and at the end of the day, the only reason it passed along with nancy pelosi was because at some point progressives just put up their hands and said, listen, we don't trust the moderates in the senate, but we trust joe biden, and joe biden says he's going to get this done, which is why it got done. . >> reporter: the white house believes after a summer slump that, extended into the fall, that it has turned a corner. president biden campaigned on this promise, that the government could work again, he could restore americans's faith in the white house after four tumultuous years of donald trump. he wanted to aim high, prove that democracy could work, compete across the globe with autocracies like china. and certainly this summer, the withdrawal from afghanistan, the delta variant sent cases surging and then the messy infighting on capitol hill, we certainly saw that the public ran out of patience and said, wait, where are things getting done. the white house aides i've talked to believe this is a turning point for the administration. friday was a huge deal to get this done. they acknowledge there's still a ways to go in the senate. and progressive who have sacrificed a lot more than the conservative senators, they did put their faith in joe biden because he has relationships with senator manchin, he has extracted a framework promise to get this done. it's going to be a process here. there are things that are going to fall in and out. this bill is going to go back at the house. we're not at the finish line yet. we'll see about that christmas deadline. the white house believes they have some momentum. they believe those poll numbers will go up again with two storm crowds on the horizon. the ongoing matter of inflation and that we are seeing covid cases start to tick up again among the unvaccinated. as we head into the holiday travel system, even though the nation is awash in available vaccines. >> coming up with that as a backdrop, what are president biden's plans for a re-election campaign and what about donald trump for that matter? there is new reporting on both of them when it comes to a potential rematch in 2024. 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"the atlantic's" peter nicholas reports, anticipating that trump may not know who adlai stevenson was or that he lost two straight presidential elections in the 1950s, this ex-adviser figures he or someone else might need to explain the unhappy fate. if he were beaten in 2024, he would join stevenson as one of history's serial losers. i think that would resonate said this person who like others spoke on the condition of anonymity to talk more freely. trump hates losers. stevenson, the former governor of illinois was defeated by dwight eisenhower in the 1952 and the 1956 general elections. he would also go on to lose the democratic primary to jfk in 1960. >> katty kay, i've talked to people close to donald trump for years now, for several years now leading up to 2020, and still talking to them as people talk about 2024. the hot take is of course donald trump's going to run. he can't stay away from the attention. he loves the attention. those closer to him say the only thing that is more driving for him than winning an election is his fear of losing an election. he can't stand the idea of being a two-time loser. the question is will that stop him, even if he doesn't know who adlai stevenson is, will that stop him from running in 2024? he probably knows his history with his own father and there was clearly something in that relationship, joe, where donald trump's father seems to sit there on his shoulder in his head saying you're a loser. you're going to be a loser. being a loser is the worst possible thing. there was a story that came out in a biography of trump's during the last election campaign about how donald trump goes to the hospital when his son don jr. is born and ivana trump is saying to him let's call him don jr., and what's trump's reaction? what happens if he's a loser. it is the worst possible thing that donald trump can call somebody else and it's the worst possible thing he thinks he is. he might like the rallies and he might like the power and the idea that he is still the person who can control the republican party and i'm sure he would love the triumph of winning, and stack that up against the smallest possibility of losing. i agree with you, the possibility of losing trumps the possibility winning. the nationwide investigation into instagram, we'll talk to key members of a bipartisan group of attorneys general digging into the physical and mental health issues linked to that platform. that conversation is next on "morning joe." 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no. so general peterson and i, along with a number of other ags are investigating we want answers from facebook and we want accountability. >> general peterson, this really is such a bipartisan issue. mika and i have gone around talking, whether it's at colleges or high schools, civic organizations, we also have teenagers ourselves, and we've seen the same thing over and over again, that anxiety, depression, possibly suicidal ideations sometimes, are attached to this. we've seen the studies, we've seen the articles. talk about what got you interested in this, first of all, and how important it is that facebook, meta, whatever you want to call them, are held to account. >> we'll use facebook for today. i agree with mika. you know, actually, for me, it's been about a year and a half and it started when my son called me and asked me if i had watched "the social dilemma" and he said i can't believe the guys who designed these products won't let their kids go on social media platforms, and that really spoke to him as a father of four young kids. then i got a call from t.j. donovan, the ag from vermont and he has two young sons and his wife is a child psychologist, and he said i'm concerned. and maura was already engaged in this process, also. so he and i and six other ags starting meeting and discussing, and unfortunately a large portion of attorney generals had stepped up to be a part of this investigation. but i think it's a very easy bipartisan issue, because it's a business model that's built on engagement and they'll do anything they can to enhance that engagement and they now recognize or have known for a while, actually, that this enhanced engagement, particularly with young people is actually very detrimental to their mental well-being. so it's frankly one in which we've been looking at for over a year, and as the information continues to come out with the whistleblower, a lot of our suspicions are being confirmed and it's a business model that really is very disturbing. >> so, maura, facebook or meta, whatever you want to call it, wouldn't speak to us directly for a response. told the "washington post" that this all, what you are doing, represents a deep misunderstanding of the facts, and that they're also putting these parental supervision issues in there. they did a statement to nbc news as well. are you clearly understanding the facts, and what is it that you hope to prove in this investigation? >> mika, maybe i'm just an unsophisticated lawyer, but i know enough to know that when i read research from facebook, from its own people, outlining the social harms, the mental health harms caused to our young people, particularly to our young girls, i don't think i need an advanced degree in technology to understand what's going on here. and, you know, facebook will continue to deny, they'll deny to call us ill-informed. the facts will reveal themselves. and, again, we are so engaged in this investigation because this is about protecting young people and this is a company that time and time again has sought to exploit all in the interest of gain and profit. and the worst thing is, it's about exploiting the most vulnerable among us, our young people. it's so wrong, and that's why we're all over this. a year ago general peterson and i had to call for instagram to not go forward with the creation of a platform that was going to be for kids 13 and under. see, facebook actually doesn't want to admit its wrongdoing, it doesn't want to change its ways. it just wants to double down on continued exploitation and we shut that down, we said, no, you shouldn't do that, and so far they've stood down. but this is a company that, through a combination of hubris, arrogance, and outright greed, has done a lot of harm, we believe, and they need to be stopped. >> general peterson, in the comments up on capitol hill, in the hearings on capitol hill and public comments. one, there are other social media platforms that teenage girls are using, snapchat and tiktok, and why is instagram being singled out. the other thing they say is maybe some girls who are depressed on instagram, it exacerbates their depression, but actually on balance, instagram does more good for teenage girls than it does harm for teenage girls. can you answer both of those defenses that facebook is putting out there? can you put your arguments to that? >> one, it's not very persuasive to say, why are you picking on us. they're the largest of the social media platforms. i'm not too persuaded when they say, well, look at the others. we're actually going after the business model and we know what the business model looks like. the business model is all about engagement. the longer you can have a young person engaged on the screen, the average now is about three hours, but it continues to go up, the longer you can have them on the screen, they'll be able to extract more and more data, and with that data they build out the profile. so when they come on and speak to congress or when they make their statements to the media, they always spin it. they've got quite a sophisticated pr operation where they'll spin how we're working with parents. in fact, ag healy mentioned instagram for kids. they're saying they're there to try to help parents, but we know from data that came out with the whistleblower, that's not the intent at all. and you're not going to compromise on the podle. in fact, they incentivize the software designers to dress engagement, and the more you are effective in increasing a young person's time on the screen, you're going to be compensated or rewarded for that. so it's very easy for them to be condescending and say we're not bright enough to understand. the fact of the matter is, we are becoming aware of the business model. it's very concerning and that's why the investigation was instigated. >> good morning, attorney general healy. i know it's an open and active investigation and there's a limit to perhaps what you can say. but in broad strokes, what are the things you're looking for right here? what sort of timeline are you operating under and what are you hoping the eventual outcome will be? >> well, it is an active investigation and we will go where the facts take us. we will move through this as expeditiously as possible because we understand the ongoing harm posed by instagram, posed by facebook in its model. so obviously that involves an inquiry into all of the usual places, and all i can do is assure you that this has gotten the attention of a wide swath of attorneys general, bipartisan, because it is that serious and needs immediate intention from folks. >> attorneys general maura healy and doug peterson, thank you so much. thanks for being on this morning. >> eddie, final thoughts. >> my prayers are with the families in wisconsin, that tragedy, and i'm thinking that we're not alone. xavier bertrand shows us that ill-liberalism is running rampant all over the west. we all have work to do. >> yes, we do. and that does it for us this morning. stephanie ruhle picks up the coverage right now. hi, there. i'm stephanie ruhle live at msnbc headquarters in new york city. it is monday, november 22nd, and we have all the facts you need to know this morning, so let's get smarter. any minute the trial of three men accused of killing ahmaud arbery will resume in georgia with both sides set to deliver closing arguments. we will bring you inside the courtroom when that begins. and while americans are concerned about surging prices and nationwide shortages, there are signs that the supply chain woes are starting to ease up and the ceo of america's largest retailer says their shelves are stocked and they are ready for the holidays. my exclusive sit-down with the ceo of walmart u.s. we have got to start this morning's broadcast in the state of wisconsin where at least five people were killed and more than 40 injured after an suv plowed through a christmas parade in waukesha. nbc news reporting that an individual is in custody as a person of interest. it comes after this red suv crashed through barricades, hitting dozens of people. the moment of impact was caught on camera. we are not going to show that to you, but i want to share the moments leading up to it. and we warn you, it's disturbing.

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