fixed there. when that happens, the opponents say, yes, it is happening, and your member of congress voted against it, voted against the safety of alabama, on and on and on. it's crazy. i think, mika, we'll see more and more of this. >> yeah. because infrastructure is something everybody likes, especially when it's been crumbling for quite some time. i mean, people are going to be very -- it is going to create jobs. i mean, of course he is going to take credit for it, but the voting against and then taking credit for it, that's just another way the republican party looks kind of lost. >> well, let's just say, if you've looked at the poll numbers, there are a couple parties in washington, d.c. that are lost. democrats way behind. we'll get to that on a lot of issues polls especially and much more. willie, couple of bits of news we should talk about. first of all, our dear friends, and they are as much family as much as friends, out at java joes in des moines, we've been going there so long. tim and amy and their entire family, they've been a part of our life since the moment we got out there in, my gosh, i guess 2008. >> yeah. >> tim went through the front door with the snow behind him. said, "hey, mind if i come onto your show?" most of us point to that as the beginning of "morning joe." >> look at that footage. tim still with his coat on around the iowa caucuses, as barack obama was on his way to become a historic president of the united states. i view it, and i think you do too, as the birthplace of "morning joe." java joes open nearly 30 years before it just closed. tim was the most important guy at nbc news at the time. he said, this is where i want to talk politics. i've been watching from a distance, and i like what you're doing. here i am. java joes, from there, every iowa caucus, every four years, for us, it kicked off an important year and was our bread and butter, talking about presidential politics and the election. so sad to hear this news from tim and amy, that java joes is closing. it really has been such a part of our lives for well over a decade. for people in des moines, much longer than that. >> you know, as you look at these images, it takes me back, mika. i remember calling phil and telling him, "hey, we need to go to iowa. we're a political show." he said, "people at nbc news aren't going to let you go out." i remember telling phil, "well, listen, we're going to be in iowa. if you want to send some cameras, you can send cameras." >> yup. >> "but we're going to go. so good luck with that. you'll have an empty set in new york." so we went out there, but they wouldn't let us stay in the main place over there. i don't know what it is because it's like the civic center or something. they never let us inside there. they said, "you can stay at this little coffee house, like evil -- several blocks away, but you can't be in the main area." we're like, "okay." this shows you that they pushed us out of the civic center because we aren't good enough to be there, and we ended up going to this coffee place. after about two or three hours out there, tim russard said, screw the civic center, this is where the action is. he walked over, came over, and talked to us. you see brenda buchanan there, everybody else, brother barnicle, and it was wonderful. it really became the place to be in iowa for so long. it's just an incredible place. we loved being there. >> yeah. it really is where -- i mean, that moment that tim walked in the door, we talk about that as the day our show was sort of blessed and became real. we were really struggling to put together this political talk show, this island of civility, and that was the day that we knew that we were going to be -- well, i don't think we knew we'd still be on 15 years later, which we are. we're all a little tired. but, my gosh, it all started at java joes. it was not just tim and amy but their kids. we took pictures with their kids when they were really little, and recently when we were there, they were all grown up. >> yeah. >> so it has been the home to sort of our political hub whenever there is an election. you end up at java joes. >> by the way, sweetie, we're not tired. we're just old. >> exactly. very old. >> there's a difference. >> so happy to be here. >> very happy. >> you know, for people that maybe haven't played high school sports, especially high school football, it's kind of hard to explain, about the bond you have with people during two-a-days. i'll tell you, still some of the most defining moments of my life, which may sound sad to people but it's not. i learned so much discipline in 98 degree weather, slogging through, you know, hot august days. the coaches that coached me left such an indelible mark on me. i know you feel the same way. you lost a guy that meant the world to you. >> yeah. thanks, joe. coach drew gibbs, an absolute legend in the state of new jersey. head football coach at the powerhouse. back in the day, that's me at ridgewood high school. he was my position coach. we're going back 30 some years now. >> wow. >> truly, one of the great coaches, one of the most influential people in my life. i got the chance -- this is a picture from last month. we had a 30th anniversary reunion of our state championship team. he came back over from ramapo, where he's since won state titles. his team is playing friday for another one. he died suddenly yesterday. he was taken out of practice two days ago with chest pains, and he died during surgery in ridgewood. devastated all of us. we've been in touch with his wife sharon, his family, and the ramapo football family. a guy like coach gibbs leaves a mark on you. he's one of the people who built me. my head coach at ridgewood, coach johnson, and others as well. that group of guys when i was 14, 15, 16 years old, they put things into me that i carry with me today. i'm so grateful for the relationship i've had with coach gibbs and just so sad and so sorry for his family and the ramapo football family, about his death yesterday. >> yeah. and we're certainly thinking of his family. not only at home but also at school. that football team. willie, you know, it's amazing, the impact he had on your life. the impact he's had on a generation of kids. even those that are going to be playing friday night, they're going to be looking back 30 years from now and thinking about the impact that he had on their lives as well. >> yes. >> and, you know, mika, of course, you had the same thing with track coaches. i hear you talking to your girls, hear you talking to friends about those track meets. it just really has such a lasting impact. they're not just games. they really are tests. a great way for, you know, high school kids, college kids to test themselves. >> yeah. >> it really does build and shape character like willie was talking about. >> yeah. mentors for life. with us, we have the host of "way too early" and white house bureau chief at "politico," jonathan lemire. associate editor of the "washington post," david ignatius. member of the "new york times" editorial board, mara gaye is with us this morning. former president trump is rolling out endorsements in an effort to unseat republican lawmakers who voted for his impeachment or supported the bipartisan infrastructure bill. in west virginia, trump endorsed gop congressman alex mooney, who voiced opposition to both the bipartisan infrastructure bill and the creation of the house select committee to investigate january 6th. in michigan, he's endorsed former housing and urban development official, gibbs, running against peter meijer. over the weekend, trump called for primary challenges against several other republicans he referred to as sellouts and, quote, known losers. >> wow. >> yeah. as trump does trump. >> well, i was just going to say though, you know, mara democrats, if you look at the latest poll numbers, they're doing absolutely dreadful against republicans. not only if you look at the generics, issue after issue after issue. this republican party, kind of like donald trump, if they behaved sane and rational, probably would be a shoe in for having a huge year in 2022. but look at the senate candidates that donald trump is lining up against democrats. look what he is now doing in the house. this actually is donald trump, just like he did in georgia, in the georgia senate races, just like he is doing in georgia with herschel walker and all these other people who have been accused of beating their wives or girlfriends in the other states. he's throwing them a lifeline every day. >> absolutely. i mean, the problem for the republican party is that donald trump remains as motivational for democrats as republicans. so as long as he is continuing to stay in the mix, democrats are going to stay motivated, democratic voters. some of these challengers, some of the activity that donald trump has been up to in recent days, especially in michigan, takes me back to the awful moment when he was in the arena at one of his rallies in michigan and started talking about john dzingel and, you know, kind of devastating his legacy. the crowd at the trump rally was disturbed, and i think some of them -- i think they may have booed or kind of groaned. you know, i think that donald trump is going to find that he can continue to motivate his base, but it's actually going to also motivate democrats. the democrats need to get their act together, and there is no doubt about that. but i think their voters are going to be motivated more against donald trump than against some of these moderate republicans. >> and as trump does trump, house minority leader kevin mccarthy is reportedly trying to keep those attacks from spreading across the party. at a closed door meeting of the gop conference yesterday, mccarthy urged members to focus their attacks on democrats and not each other. some far-right members who are closely aligned with former president trump have begun attacking fellow republicans who voted for the $550 billion infrastructure package. he is trying to keep them, joe, from fighting amongst themselves. >> yeah, no doubt about it. david ignatius, here's the problem. kevin mccarthy has sacrificed his political soul to be speaker of the house. donald trump is saying, more and more every day, how little respect he has for kevin mccarthy because he's not siding with the really extreme members of that republican caucus. because he's trying at times to act like a speaker in waiting should act, needs to act. but he can't do that. so what we're seeing is, in the words of my grandma, you don't want to let that horse out of the barn. the horse is starting to get out of the barn, and pretty soon, you're going to see the most extreme members of the republican party inside the house caucus dominating what goes on there. >> i agree, joe. it's painful to watch some of the republicans pledge loyalty to a person they know is wrecking the party they grew up in. kevin mccarthy, it is hard to feel sympathy for him, given some of the leadership he's shown, but many republicans who know better just feel that they cannot break free of trump's influence, his gravitational field. as we head toward 2024, i think there will be more attempts to rebel. you begin to see republicans speaking out a little bit in private conversations with people like me, saying, you know, "don't bet on trump being the nominee." but i think just generally, there is a sense of people feeling constricted. trump, of course, loves the attention. trump will go anywhere, enforce anybody. he just wants to be back in the news. meanwhile, republicans in congress, republican leaders around the country, i think, are just desperately trying to figure out a way. is there a path for the party that has some independence from trump? >> willie, you have, specifically, people that are pushing kevin mccarthy and challenging kevin mccarthy to get on their side. people that are engaging in extreme, rashfascist style imag. people are talking about gosar right now, which as alex said before the show, he goes, "it sounds like one of the ghosts from ghostbusters," but gosar with his violent imagery. you have marjory taylor green with the poster with an ar-15 and had the squad. said she was coming after them. you have other violent imagery, and these are the very people who are saying kevin mccarthy is not being loyal enough to us, regardless of whether it is violent, fascist style imagery or if they're talking about space lasers or the most extreme conspiracy theories. they just hurt the party overall. mccarthy is trying to have it both ways, and you just can't have it both ways. >> well, that's the thing. mccarthy will not criticize crazy members of his party when they say some of the things you just expressed. i'm sure liz cheney will be relieved to hear the attacks on fellow republicans will be stopping soon. she, of course, raised her hand and had the gall to say insurrections are bad and we ought to say so out loud. she's been cast out of the party. we'll see if that holds up. you mentioned gosar. the house is expected to vote today on whether to censure that republican congressman who post td video depicting violence against democrats. arizona's paul gosar could be the first member of congress to be censured in more than a decade for the video he posted to social media last week. the edited clip of an anime tv series showed a character with gosar's face killing ocasio-cortez and slashing president biden with a weapon. gosar later defended the video, calling it a, quote, symbolic cartoon. the house vote will also decide whether the republican will be stripped of his committee assignments. that is according to a source. meanwhile, congressman gosar publicly defended posting the video yesterday in a closed door republican meeting. hedemocrats he didn't intend to promote violence. he said he didn't see it before it was posted despite it being posted by his team. kevin mccarthy reiterated gosar's message, saying, quote, it was not his intent to ever harm anybody. when asked about the situation, house speaker nancy pelosi had a different response. >> he made threats and suggestions about harming a member of congress. that is an insult not only endangerment of that member of congress, but an insult to the institution of the house of representatives. we cannot have members joking about murdering each other, as well as threatening the president of the united states. >> jonathan lemire, gosar talking to his fellow republicans in the conference meeting, defending it, saying, "i didn't see it. i was having fun with anime." he ought to take a look at what he posted. but as joe said many times, it wasn't that long ago in the united states congress where this would have been a lay-up. every republican would have said, "you're censured. you can't do that. we're talking about issues. we're fighting democrats on what is in front of us, on all the issues we think we can win on in 2022. if you do crap like that, we'll censure you." >> it'd be a significant reprimand. the last one was a months' long probe into an ethics violation. this is different. it would be real if it were to happen. but i think it should be noted, in the republican party, there's far more outrage at the gop members who voted for the bipartisan infrastructure bill than towards paul gosar, who put up this video that depicted killing ocasio-cortez and slashing president biden. it's a microcosm, disturbing one, as to where things stand right now. leader mccarthy, you know, we just heard from him. he said he is inclined to believe gosar. he doesn't believe he should be cast out, that he should face intraparty discipline. he also seems like he is trying to tamp down those in the freedom caucus who are turning on those who voted for the infrastructure bill. he recognizes it as a distraction the party doesn't need. it shows how difficult this is going to be for him to keep the party together. look, they're set up historically on polling right now to reclaim the house majority in november, like, they have a good path to do that. but it is going to be challenging for him to keep the factions together. we talk about democrats at war with each other. we might start to see it in the republican party too, particularly as president trump, seemingly by the day, is trying to get his voice to be louder. trying to reassert his influence over the gop ahead of his possible 2024 run. as he tries to manipulate and push those republicans loyal to him to cast out those that aren't. >> being kingmaker is one thing. i mean, republicans would understand if he were trying to be kingmaker and using that position to help the party. but what he is doing is, again, like i said before, the same exact thing he did in georgia at the end of the 2020 cycle. where he went in and actively worked in a way that damaged the republicans' chances of not only winning those two seats but also taking over the united states senate. he's doing it again. he's going from one state to another state to another state, and he is getting candidates who are terribly flawed candidates, that have things in their background that will hurt them politically. but he is doing it simply because they've pledged complete and total fealty to donald trump. mika, just as we talk about kevin mccarthy's house republican caucus, and, again, here's a guy that wants to be speaker of the house, and these people want to take control of the majority. >> yeah. >> you have a party that is punishing people, that wants to put people on the sidelines for voting for an infrastructure bill that they're all running around bragging about. even if they vote against it, it is a bipartisan infrastructure bill. as we saw off the top, even if they vote against this infrastructure bill, they're going home bragging about how great the infrastructure bill is. all right? so they're talking about pushing those people to the side of the party and stripping them of committee assignments or whatever they're talking about doing for punishing them. yet, people who are putting out videos that even symbolically talk about the murdering of another member of congress, those people are fine with the party. >> yeah. >> so, you know, this is your republican party, folks, that wants to take control. i mean, it needs some -- they need some strong leadership. people that are going to speak out against the craziest, most dangerous, most violent, most fascist elements of that party, so they can win the mainstream in 2022. >> it shouldn't be hard. david ignatius, real quick. >> the real issue is whether president biden and his team can show the country an alternative view of what a political party does. it passes a bipartisan infrastructure bill. it doesn't fight about it. it celebrates it. that's been the problem for the democrats through this long summer, is they couldn't get it done. now it's done. now, they ought to go out and say to the country, "we're the people who did this." meanwhile, republicans are beating each other up. we're the country that wants to build roads and bridges. it's a simple message. >> functioning government and a functioning party. >> we're going to make government work. >> joe? >> mara, if you look back at what the democrats have done the last nine months, this will be taught in political science classes, on what not to do when you take over washington, d.c. while inflation has been going up, while afghanistan was blowing apart, while all these -- what is the image americans have had of democrats? going out in the halls of congress, debating each other in front of the media, and talking about numbers. it has been insanity. meanwhile, gas prices are going up at the pump. meanwhile, afghanistan is melting down. meanwhile, democrats just seem like -- you know, the supply chain. they just aren't on top of this. instead, they're just fighting each other. they have to get past this, don't they? >> absolutely. i mean, the democrats also need strong leadership. they need some discipline. they also need a sense of urgency. they seem increasingly out of touch with what everyday americans are facing. whether it's, you know, lingering unemployment, despite all the jobs that are available in certain sectors. whether it's health issues or pandemic-related child care problems. the inflation that's making it really expensive to travel home to see your loved ones at christmas. >> right. >> the democrats seem pretty out of touch at this point. you know, the other day, i booked a ticket home to see my dad in detroit, and it's going to be hundreds of dollars to rent a car in detroit. they make cars in detroit. i have never seen anything like it. so i think the democrats kind of need to kind of go back to square one and understand, maybe talk to constituents face-to-face, as the pandemic kind of wanes, and get a sense for what everyday americans are going through. nobody can buy a home anymore. so there's a lot of problems that they have as well. but i also think pulling back a little bit, the trouble for the democrats is that functionally, they have a much bigger tent, right? they have a much bigger, healthier, more boisterous constituency within their party that they need to satisfy. >> yeah. >> and the reason, of course, is that they are the home, the only home, of american democracy at the moment. and so because of that, they do have a bigger challenge in front of them, but they need to do better. >> yeah. we need, like, a supply chain czar or a supply chain update every week. i mean, this is definitely, like, hitting us in the face every day. the administration needs to -- >> or just a strong president. i'll settle for that. >> we have to stop the bottleneck. it is complicated. ahead on "morning joe," as covid case numbers rise from coast to coast this week, we could see the fda green light booster shots for all adults. this as new york city gets ready to welcome visitors back to times square on new year's eve. but with new rules in place. plus, we're heading into a second day of jury deliberations in the kyle rittenhouse trial, and tensions are high in the city of kenosha. also ahead, a look at the massive, new lawsuit filed in the wake of the astroworld festival's tragedy. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. i've lost count of how many asthma attacks i've had. but my nunormal with nucala? fewer asthma attacks. nucala is a once-monthly add-on injection for severe eosinophilic asthma. not for sudden breathing problems. allergic reactions can occur. get help right away for swelling of face, mouth, tongue, or trouble breathing. infections that can cause shingles have occurred. don't stop steroids unless told by your doctor. tell your doctor if you have a parasitic infection. may cause headache, injection-site reactions, back pain, and fatigue. ask your doctor about nucala. find your nunormal 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>> yes. >> reporter: emily cahill thinks he is innocent. >> he was one of us, going out and protecting the community. >> reporter: for the girlfriend of anthony huber, the second man rittenhouse shot and killed, the trial is about accountability. >> i think that real justice, honestly, would be at least -- at the bare minimum, just some consequence for his actions. >> thanks to gabe gutierrez for that report. just following up on what gabe said, about some people claiming this is a second amendment rights case. it's not. i mean, it's really not. if you support the second amendment, if you support gun safety, actually, the last thing you want are minors having guns they shouldn't be carrying around. carrying around ar-15s because they think they're fun. this is, again, not a case for anybody to rally around on either side. and a person who i thought spoke eloquently to this was david french, who is a huge second amendment right supporter. in fact, we've had debates back and forth on the second amendment through the years. but in david's latest column for the "atlantic," it's entitled "kyle rittenhouse is no hero." this is what he writes. regardless of the outcome of the trial, the trumpist right is wrongly creating a folk hero out of rittenhouse. he has become a positive symbol, a young man of action who stepped up when the police allegedly stepped aside. when you turn a foolish young man into a hero, you'll see more foolish young men try to emulate his example. and although the state should not permit rioters to run rampant in america's street, random groups of armed americans are utterly incapable of imposing order themselves, and any effort to do so can lead to greater death and carnage. an acquittal does not make a foolish man a hero. a political movement that turns a deadly and ineffective vigilante into a role model is a movement that's courting more violence and encouraging more young men to recklessly brandish weapons in dangerous places. and that will spill more blood in america's street. mika, david also said rittenhouse getting acquitted will not be a miscarriage of justice. at the same time, his foolish and reckless actions should not make him a hero to anybody. he should, instead, serve as a warning to people on all sides of the political spectrum. >> yeah. accountability in some way. let's move now to rapper travis scott. apple music and epic records are among those facing a $750 million lawsuit on behalf of more than 120 people killed or injured at the astroworld concert and their family members. the suit alleges concert-goers suffered mental and physical distress from the event due to the organizers and performers, quote, senseless, gross negligence. in court documents, plaintiffs argue the people behind the event did not make an even minimal effort to keep concert-goers safe and cite the death of 21-year-old axel acosta, who was crushed by the out of control crowd. he went into cardiac arrest before falling to the ground and being trampled, the filing alleges. plaintiffs also cite some of scott's song lyrics as evidence of his disregard for concert safety. they are asking for $500 million in actual damages for medical expenses, funeral expenses, and mental anguish, and another $250 million in punitive damages. and, joe, i mean, this is something that i've been watching and following, and i know everybody here has been sort of trying to figure out how that could have happened. an ambulance driving through a crowd is not a sign of distress? i don't know what is. i think it's livenation and the production crew and the performer. i don't know how they can turn away from their responsibility here. >> yeah. willie, the problem is, again, he's got a history of this. he's been charged before with inciting crowds. you look at -- he was in the best position, at least from the stage, to see everything that was going on. seeing an ambulance come up, knowing the past, knowing the trouble he'd been in before for inciting crowds, he should have done something. you also have to look, though, at the houston police department or the county sheriff's department, and just ask what the hell they were doing. if you have a mass casualty event at 9:30, keep bringing up new york city cops because i know new york city cops. i've seen how they operate. you declare a mass casualty event at 9:30. new york city cops are going, all right, this is over. they're going to unplug everything. they're going to shut it down. they're going to clear the place out. i'm sure there are a lot of other places across the country whose police departments would do the same thing. why the hell did the concert go on for another 30, 45 minutes in houston after a mass casualty event had been called? >> yeah. i think i mentioned this when this first happened, but i was at a concert in central park in september. there was weather moving in. there was a little bit of rain, but it looked like there was lightning. the police politely came on and said, "folks, move out. lightning is coming on in the area area." concert goes on. then it was unplugged. they turned it off and shut it down. look at the images, it is devastating. can you imagine what it would have been like to be in the middle of that? awful. we lost a 9-year-old named ezra a couple days ago. he died after a long fight after being at that concert. it's so horrible on so many levels, and i hope everyone involved, the performers, the production companies, and the police, learn something from this tragedy. but, man, it shouldn't have happened. it's so awful. let's turn to the fight against covid. most adults across the united states now could be able to get a pfizer booster shot as early as this weekend. the fda is expected to authorize the dose as soon as tomorrow for all adults who received their second dose of the vaccine in the past six months. pfizer also has asked the fda for an emergency authorization of its covid treatment pill. the drug company says the antiviral pill cuts the risk of hospitalization or death by 89% in high-risk adults who have been exposed to the virus. meanwhile, washington, d.c. will ease its strict indoor mask policy starting monday. the mayor said while infections remain steady, vaccines are keeping people out of the hospitals by and large. masks will no longer be required in most businesses, but people will need them in places like schools, nursing homes, and jails, as well as on public transportation. and the new year's eve party is back on in times square to ring in 2022. here's what outgoing mayor bill de blasio had to say. >> we love new year's eve in times square. we want it to be big. we want it to be full of life. we want it to be a great new york celebration. guess what, everyone? a big, strong, full-strength celebration, it's coming back this new year's eve. times square. everyone come on down. we're celebrating. >> hundreds of thousands of people are invited to times square for the celebration on december 31st, but every one of them will need to be fully vaccinated for covid-19. everyone 5 and older must bring proof of vaccination. adults also will need a photo id. mika, this is what is happening in new york city for people who are worried about their freedom and say it is too onerous. walk into a restaurant and say, let me see your vaccine card. great, have a good meal. that's what they're doing in new york city, and the numbers are down. >> well, we'll be watching that on television. coming up, nbc's -- >> i was going to say, we'll be watching television. >> i didn't say i was going. >> if for some reason i accidentally stumbled into times square that night, they'd say, "have you had a vaccine?" "actually, no, i can't get away fast enough." it's always great to watch times square on new year's eve, but i do wonder, who in the heck has what it takes to stand for, like, 12, 14 hours in 7 degree weather. >> i don't get it. >> yeah, i don't get that. but i'm glad -- >> people wearing the glasses. >> i'm glad they can stand in cold weather for 12, 14 hours. who knows? maybe mariah carey can have another memorable performance on new year's eve. >> wow. >> can you see i've turned joe into a wet blanket, just like me. he used to like to go out. not anymore. stay at home. >> no, i never did actually. >> okay. >> i have been boring and a wet blanket for a very, very long time. >> well, makes two of us. >> my parents used to complain about the fact they had to carry me up to bed at night because i'd fall asleep to "happy days" at 7:30. >> i love "happy days." >> nothing changed through the years. >> it's true. >> you were 18 on those nights. >> now i have to carry him. >> hard to get you up there. >> i've got the guns. >> what? >> i had to carry you up the stairs. >> her arms. >> i'm cut. >> yeah. >> oh, your arms. i gotcha. i was like, wow, wait a second. >> got to love this delay. makes for great television. absolutely nobody likes this. nbc's keir simmons coming up with an exclusive look at the new stealth fighter jet the russians call their checkmate in an escalating arms race with the u.s. plus, the pulitzer prize-winning reporter behind the 1619 project joins us with a definitive account of how race has shaped the nation. 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(music) at aetna, we're putting all other medicare plans on notice. with coverage and services that may include a $0 monthly plan premium telehealth emergency coverage while you travel an over-the-counter allowance plus dental, vision and hearing. because the right medicare plan should make you feel... yeah, like that aetna medicare advantage plans medicare annual enrollment ends december 7th. call today to learn more. for people who could use a lift new neutrogena® rapid firming. a triple-lift serum with pure collagen. 92% saw visibly firmer skin in just 4 weeks. neutrogena® for people with skin. with us now, pulitzer prize winning reporter covering racial injustice for the "new york times" magazine, nicole hannah jones, creator of the 1619 project and editor of the book entitled "the 1619 project: a new origin story." let me say, nicole, congratulations. we've been talking over the past year, sometimes on the sideline. i've let you know i've always been a 1776 guy. i've been fascinated by this entire project. i think what i find most, i think, remarkable about the fact is despite the debates, the differences that all of us may have while having this debate, you have made 1619 stick in the minds, i think, of any american approaching history. whenever you talk about 1776, regardless of your ordering of it, 1619 is now going to be a part of that. talk about that. talk about this year and this book. >> well, thank you for having me on. yes, i've appreciated our many conversations, often over text, and all the times you've brought me on the show to talk about this work. so i'm just really excited that the book is in the world. you're right, that 1619, i think, is now a permanent part of our lexicon when we discuss history. and i think that's critical. i don't think, as you and i discussed, that you have to choose one or the other. and i would never argue that 1776 doesn't matter, that it's not important. of course it is. what i'm saying is let's also shift that lens a little bit. let's think about what leads up to 1776. if we think of 1776 as an origin of freedom, we have to think of 1619 as the origin of slavery. both have been defining tensions in american life. i think we still grapple with those tensions. this project tries to help us understand why. >> and that's what is so important. you talk about the defining tensions. that's why you hear these debates, and it's either/or. it's right/left. we talk about dialectical thinking on this show. two things can be true at the same time. and i remember last year, we were talking to annette gordon reed. i said, how do you get past thomas jefferson? how do you get past the horrible things he did in his life, and at the same time, creating documents that freed more people than anything else? she said, we can hold two separate truths in our mind at the same time. 1776 and 1619. like you said, synthesize them and have the debate. it is supposed to be what america is about. >> of course. i mean, look, my daughter used to always ask me, is this person good or bad, mama? i would have to tell her, most people can do really great things and most people are capable of doing bad things. we can't think of history as all good or all bad, and we can't think about our founders or any one person as all good or all bad. thomas jefferson wrote down some majestic ideals. he failed to live up to them. what we argue is black americans read the ideals, which matter, and said, "we'll fight to make those true." that's a narrative i think we can all be proud of. we have to be able to teach our children and ourselves a complicated history about a complicated nation. i think the belief that if we are more honest about our history, if we are more honest about some of the really terrible things that have happened in this country, that it will somehow destroy the fabric of our country. i actually think that you can't have reconciliation until you reconcile with the past. once we are honest about our history, that's when we can start to move forward and repair. >> yeah. "the new york times" mara gay is with us and has a question. >> nnikole, first of all, congratulations. this is a joy to see you succeed. one of the great things about your work and about this project is that it really has centered the black experience at the heart of american history and democracy. so much of the discussion has been, of course, about the blowback, but i'm wondering if you could just talk a little bit about what you've heard from black americans, maybe in communities of color across the country who are reading the work, children. what has that feedback been? i don't know if there is one story that stands out. >> yes, thank you so much for that question. because, you know, we do focus a lot on the pushback, but the pushback is a sign of all of the people who actually embrace the project. you wouldn't have the level of pushback if you didn't have people who really embrace the project. this feeling of discomfort that we've been hearing around, you know, this critical race theory propaganda campaign, that has been the standard feeling for black children. to feel that the way history is taught the demeaning to them. the way that history is taught really erases them and erases the accomplishment of black americans. so when we tell the story that says black people have always been actors in the american project, black people have been the primary perfecters of our country, that as dubois said, this country wouldn't be what it is without her negro people, her black people, that is an empowering message for youth. i have heard again and again from black students who said, "i feel pride in being an american for the first time. i have an understanding of what my ancestors went through and allaccomplished, and this makes me want to work harder." i talked to students in chicago who were engaging with the project. they were doing their own research. they were looking at things in their community they'd never understood before. they started to do historical research and started to make their communities make sense. their lives make sense. it really felt empowering to them. every person wants to see themselves in the narrative of america. we are a multi-racial country. we've been multi-racial since 1619 when the first africans joined the native people who were already here and the english settlers. we need a history that is reflective of that. >> nikole, your line about black americans being perfecters of american democracy, you see it throughout history. we talk about jefferson and jefferson's declaration. it was used by frederick douglass. abraham lincoln when he finally, after dred scott, decided he was going to aggressively start talking about emancipation. he also used jefferson's words to say that the declaration applied to a constitution that had provisions in it that protected slave holders. martin luther king used those words as well. but this example goes all the way through, talking about perfecters, all the way through to the 2020 election, where black women in milwaukee county and wayne county and fulton county, in philadelphia, made the difference in the election for a lot of us who believe it was an election where everything was on the line. they were the difference. they were the perfecters of democracy. >> that's right. i mean, you know, it's astounding to me when people say that this project is not patriotic. one, i don't think it's the role of journalists to produce work that is patriotic or not, but i don't think you can read this and not come away with the understanding that the most ardent defenders of democracy have been those who had to fight to have it from the beginning. and we see that role again and again. with that said, our democracy is at a crisis point right now. we have states that are trying to make it much more difficult for black americans and other marginalized people to vote. we have maps that are being so heavily gerrymandered that they will have minority vote for decades to come. we can't keep saving this democracy again and again. americans need to decide this democracy is worth it and join and ensuring we all have a legal right to vote. the truth is, we call ourselves the oldest continuing democracy, but we haven't had even the resemblance of a true democracy, except for 50 years with the voting rights act. as you know, the voting rights act has been gutted. we're seeing the largest wave of efforts to suppress the vote that we've seen since jim crow. >> we have david ignatius with the "washington post." he has a question. >> nikole, i want to ask about your experiences as a journalist. for people in our business, this is a dream, to write something that becomes central to our national conversation. there is a flip side to that, because this has become such a target for people on the right. i just want to ask you what that's been like for you. >> thank you for that question. it has been challenging. it's not easy to go from being just a journalist to a symbol. many people have seen me as a symbol, if they love my work or revile my work. we can disagree on the premise of the 1619 project. we can say that we don't buy the arguments of the project. but the effort to really discredit the project and to discredit me as a journalist has been really hard. it's -- it is difficult to be targeted by some of the most powerful people in the world. the president of the united states at the time, donald trump. he was tweeting about my work, giving speeches about my work, and that sends a vile hatred into your inbox, into your voice voicemails, on social. it's challenging. what i'll also say is we don't become journalists to make powerful people comfortable. and we have to expect that when we're trying to do bold, ambitious work that really challenges power, that there's going to be a pushback. luckily, i have a lot of support from people. i know the work i'm doing matters. >> i wanted to ask you, as we're talking about the criticism, some of the most noteworthy criticism came from the letter from the five historians saying there were factual errors in "1619." it wasn't about interpretation, but it was factually wrong and they felt the process was closed and wasn't transparent enough. "new york times" responded, but i'd love for you to respond here to people that heard that, saw the letter from the historians, and because of that, have just sort of discredited the entire project and said, "well, i don't have to grapple with that. i'm just going to move along." >> yes. you know, of course there was going to be critique and criticism from historians. historians actually argue with each other's interpretations all of the time. it's normative to the field. so what i would ask people is have an open mind. there was valid critique to be had of the project, absolutely. where that critique was in good faith, we listened to it. so if you look at the book, joe, you'll see that there are a thousand end notes in the be book that we document where we got the information from. people can go to the original source material. i significantly expanded the section of my essay, which is the most contested, which is about the role of slavery and the revolution. the beautiful thing about this book is, as journalists, we usually get one shot. we print something or produce something, and we don't get to come back and really perfect it and make it better. with the book, we were able to do that. so i appreciated the good faith criticism. i read more. i studied more. i talked to more historians. if you go to the back of the book, you'll see we had an entire additional layer of peer review. some of the greatest living american historians peer reviewed this book. so those who have an open mind, i think they will have their reservations answered. again, ultimately, people don't have to agree with it. but i think it is worthy of respect because we worked really hard on this, and it's really important to us. >> yeah. you know, we all make mistakes. i misspoke a couple of days ago, apologized for misspeaking, and then got hammered by trumpists who would go right past the apology and, instead, focus on the mistake that i had made. at that point, they're just doing it, again, in bad faith. i saw so much of that in your case, on a much larger level. people that just didn't want to confront the truth, that "1619" did go along with 1776, it was much easier for them to disregard the whole project instead of grappling with the truths in here. let me ask you finally, i'm just curious, as you had this time to do the deep dive, and you've lived with this story, this extraordinary story for so long, do you have a hero or two that stick out in your mind throughout this entire american story? >> i love that question. it's not a question i've gotten before. i mean, i think frederick douglass was already my hero before i did this project. but in doing this project, i spent so much time just reading as many of his speeches and works as possible. i think he is this country's greatest american. he is someone who believed ardently in those ideas in the declaration. as he said, we must work to ensure the declaration is not passed as a lie. he was someone who believed in rights for chinese-americans when we were trying to exclude them from society. he was onebelieved in suffrage for women as well as equality for black americans. that was a rare thing at that time. then a woman named callie house, a woman born into slavery. after the end of slavery, she fought to get reparations for the formerly enslaved. she tried to get the federal government to pay a pension to enslaved people who were living in absolute destitution after the end of slavery. she has the moxy to actually sue the federal government to give enslaved people the taxes that had been collected on slave-grown cotton during the civil war. she brings down the full weight of the federal government, and she gets imprisoned. there are these heros who are american history people who constantly stood up for the right thing. we need to learn more from those stories. again, you don't have to be black americans to take pride in these great americans who were really fighting for our highest ideals. >> yeah. i've been spending a lot of time with abraham lincoln over the past year and a half, and you can't spend a lot of time with abraham lincoln without spending a lot of time without frederick douglass, which got me reading the frederick douglass biology. i agree with you, along with -- after a year and a half, i just sit and i look at the life of abraham lincoln, and i look at the life of frederick douglass, and i just ask, how did they do this? where did they come from? just extraordinary, extraordinary americans. the new book is "the 1619 project: a new origin story." nikole, thank you for being with us. good luck out there. mika? >> thanks. great conversation. it's four minutes past the top of the hour. foreign policy news now. russia's top arms executives spoke with nbc news in its first american television interview about the country's new fighter jet, which he says is a game-changer in the arms race with the u.s. let's bring in nbc news senior international correspondent keir simmons, live in dubai this morning. keir, what can you tell us? >> reporter: hey, mika. well, above me you can hear a french fighter jet showing off its capabilities. there are many countries here at the dubai air show, of course, including the americans, displaying their military hardware. but, you know, mika, to be here really pulls back the curtain a little bit on something that we talk about on the show all the time. that is the nature of president putin's power. the helicopter behind me, though, that russian helicopter has already been sold to the egyptians. this top russian executive that we spoke to is close to president putin. he runs rust tech, the biggest arms firm in russia. sergei shows me a stealth prototype chopper. su-75. like america's cutting-edge f-35 but cheaper, the russians say. the key difference between the two, the f-35 is real. this is a model and untested. still, the russians call their plane the checkmate. who are you putting in check, the americans, the f-35? >> translator: you can really only compare our airplane with the f-35. usually, we are competing with the u.s. >> reporter: this is his first american television interview. a member of president putin's inner circle, they were both in the kgb in germany. there is little we know about him then. what was he like? what did he do in germany with you? >> translator: we were both in intelligence. >> reporter: you can't talk about it? >> translator: i would rather not. >> reporter: we meet at the dubai air show. u.s. and russian aircraft on parade in the same air space. russia is the world's second largest arms exporter after the u.s. state-owned rust tech dominates russia's arms industry. this man is the ceo and a target of u.s. sanctions. >> translator: i was also sanctioned because i am a friend of putin. >> reporter: but he is still said to be worth hundreds of millions of dollars. who do you plan or hope to sell the plane to? >> translator: i think that this airplane will be interesting to practically everyone. >> reporter: saudi arabia, turkey. >> possibly, yes. >> reporter: these are american allies. >> translator: turkey is also a u.s. ally. nevertheless, they purchased the s-400. >> reporter: that's an air defense system turkey bought from russia, despite being a member of nato, and earning u.s. sanctions. >> business. >> reporter: it's business? and business, he tells me, is good. does it give you some pleasure to sell the s-400 to a country that is a nato country? [ laughter ] >> reporter: it's driving a wedge between turkey and america. >> translator: we think we won in this case. >> reporter: just last month, a congressional research report said that arms sales are essential to russia's foreign policy. to put that more simply, every deal that russia does strengthens president putin's international reach. willie, just think about this. think about the control president putin, for example, has over gas supplies to places like europe. the control in that report demonstrates president putin has it over the defense industry. that is quite a picture of exactly who president putin is. willie? >> fascinating look inside how that works. keir simmons live in dubai for us. thanks for that report. meanwhile, florida's republican senator marco rubio placed a hold on president biden's nominee for ambassador to china. senator rubio yesterday announcing his hold on nicholas burn, citing concerns about his business relationships with companies in china. the move comes a day after biden held a virtual summit with chinese president xi jinping. rubio also put a hold on another nominee. it'll delay the process. the senate confirmed eight ambassadors so far nominated by biden, including those to canada, israel, and mexico. david ignatius, we're not talking about low-level ambassadorships here. these are the most important relationships in the world to the united states. just for some context and somber -- perspective, how unusual is it to have so few ambassadors confirmed at this point? >> unusual. president trump had far more of his ambassadors and other senior officials confirmed by this point. the same thing with president obama. it's really shocking. there's no other word for me, to see somebody like senator rubio, who talks about the importance of a strong defense, strong foreign policy, to be preventing the united states from having representation in beijing at a time when our relationship with china is really important, is really sensitive, sometimes is confrontational. the idea that we have no ambassadorial presence because rubio wants to score political points, you can't understand that. at a time when we're saying, you know, why doesn't the biden administration amp up its voice on problems at home and abroad, the irresponsibility of republican members of congress, not giving them the personnel they need to do the job is troubling. this shouldn't be the way our system works. when people around the world say what's wrong with america, look, we can't even appoint ambassadors, that's telling you something is wrong. >> also, somebody like nick burns, who everybody knows, and he's been around a long time. one of the most respected hands in washington, d.c. republicans and democrats alike, david. it is so unfortunate. if i'm not mistaken, doesn't chuck schumer have the option, as well, to just say, "okay, you guys want to delay this, make something that should be a quick voice vote a two or three-hour ordeal for each one, okay, we'll start monday before thanksgiving and stay in session all day and all night." i saw, at least in the house, that was the best way to move these things through. at some point, yes, the republicans, some of these republicans, ted cruz and others, are being reckless and irresponsible. but at some point, chuck schumer, doesn't he need to step up and just say, "all right, everybody, we're going to be in session, and if you want to go home by thanksgiving, well, then we're going to get through this nonsense. if you have a reason to really have a problem with an ambassador, okay, let's talk about that. otherwise, we're going to stay here night and day and night and day until america has ambassadors in the most important capitals across the world." >> joe, you're right. chuck schumer needs to inflict some pain on the republicans for this behavior. it shouldn't be cost free to them. he needs support from president biden in doing that. this needs to be an issue that the republicans are forced to own. i wanted to say a word about nick burns. nick burns was secretary of state when condoleezza rice, george w. bush's nominee was secretary of state. if there is a person who represents the bipartisan tradition in american foreign policy today, it's nick burns. it makes it especially egregious, as you were saying earlier, that burns is being held up. china is important, but he is the right person for china. there are so many other key capitals in europe, in asia, where we don't have representation now. more pressure on republicans to say, wait a minute, you're hurting your country is, i think, the way we'll get out of this. >> joining the conversation here in washington, we have congressional correspondent for the "washington post" and author of the "early 202 newsletter," jackie alemany. and editor for "politico" sam stein. congressional reporter for "politico" nicholas wu joins the table as well. good to have you on board. it is funny because you guys work together, and you work together. first time seeing each other in person. "morning joe" brings people together. >> beautiful thing. >> we still stay a little bit apart, okay? all right. at least one house republican is already promoting the good that the infrastructure package will do for his district, despite voting against it. congressman gary palmer of alabama touted funding that will go to a highway project benefitting his constituents. in a tweet, he wrote in part, quote, completion of birmingham's northern belt line has been a priority of mine since elected to congress. new funding for the project has now passed. he doesn't mention that he voted against it. so there's that. after the bill's passage, the congressman released a statement, writing that while he does support some aspects of the legislation, he does not back the climate change measures, calling the programs a, quote, green new deal wish list. is this having it both ways? i mean, this is like -- he's like the chris christie of this legislation. >> oh, mika, please. you're still going after chris, even a day later. >> he's lucky he survived yesterday. i need him to come back just to talk with me. >> no, no. i think he's good. i think he's good. so, you know, this is very simple. in congress, you have to make difficult votes, and you vote for it or you vote against it. the truth is, this northern birmingham legislation, this road, beltway, he said it's been a top priority since he's entered into congress. that's fantastic. he voted no on it. he voted against it. he voted against the people of birmingham. he voted against the project. it's that simple. for the rest of his career, there's a big no around that. i'm sure he'll get re-elected because he is in alabama. but there is no mistaking it, he voted no. he voted against his constituents because he didn't like some of the other things in the bill. well, those are the choices you make all the time. willie, at the end of the day, if you need that project enough, you hold your nose, vote yes, and you move forward. there are no perfect bills. there are no great bills that go through congress. it's usually you sort of balancing things. so if you're going to vote no to kill that bill in birmingham, you need to stick by it. instead of trying to have it both ways. >> this is nothing new this year. remember, this was also true of the covid-19 relief package. people ranting and raving about it, then going back to districts and states and talking about everything they did to bring the relief to the people in the middle of a pandemic. but this was about as bipartisan as it gets these days, with 19 republicans in the senate and another handful over in the house to push this thing over the line. meanwhile, democrats in the house are ramping up their efforts to promote that infrastructure package. between now and the end of the year, democrats plan to hold 1,000 events, they say, across the country to tout the legislation just signed by president biden. the chair of the dccc, maloney of new york, announced the initiative yesterday. >> there will be 1,000 events between now and the end of the year describing why this work that we have now completed on the infrastructure bill and will soon complete on the build back better act will give people better country, more breathing room for their families, and a future they can look forward to. we are going to stick together. we are going to get it done. we are going to tell them we did it. we are going to tell them who the other side is. >> sam stein, this is a ton of money, $1.2 trillion worth of funding from the government to rebuild infrastructure. president biden and members of his team walked across an old rusty bridge in new hampshire yesterday to make the point that this was going to get the relief it needed and bridges like it across the country would get the same. obviously, democrats facing big headwinds going into the midterms, and they're going to go out again and again and again and talk about what they just brought to their constituents. >> yeah. i mean, this is the one play they really have, right? you have to pass the bill, then you have to sell it. 1,000 events is selling it. the question i have, and i actually asked it of the congressman, is what do you do about an ecosystem where viewers are not necessarily getting their news, except fromviewers? how do i couldn't penetrate those bubbles? going out and selling it is one thing, but reaching viewers is another. you know, he admitted, like, he said, "democrats have to reach conservative audiences and be creative about it." the other question, how much can you sell a bill and how effective can the salesmanship be if, for instance, that same voter you're trying to reach is driving down the street and sees gas at $4 plus. will it matter more to the voter than an infrastructure project that's not happening right now in this moment? those are some real headwinds that the democrats have to confront as they go about selling this bill. this is the play they have. they have to pass the bill and sell it. >> i want to jump back to the selling of this in a second. first, in a massive corruption, the bureau of labor statistics says it underestimated job growth for most of this year, including four months this summer. initial reports missed job gains from june to september by 626,000 jobs. according to the "washington post," that's the largest underestimation of any other comparable period going back to 1979. a similar underestimate happened in the spring of 2020. just as the pandemic was beginning, when the bureau of labor statistics revealed that nearly 1 million more jobs had been lost than were initially reported. that was due to many workers listed as absent rather than temporarily unemployed. this time, it's believed employers have been slow to respond to the bls survey about the number of employees they've hired. it's really hard to get a sense of exactly what's going on there, when there isn't the reporting back. back to the selling of the bill, jackie and then nicholas, first of all, are people going to hear the sell if the president and democrats travel the country and talk about this, and also the push for the next bill, but the gas prices are high, groceries are extremely expensive, christmas shopping shelves are going to be empty? i mean, there seems to be some other issues that are really going to hit home for american consumers that's going to counter any sell of some big picture project. >> that's what we're going to hear from republicans on replay. inflation, supply chain issues. but, you know, we actually asked sean patrick maloney some of the questions, the follow-ups you asked, sam, yesterday during the press conference. right now, the polling for the bipartisan infrastructure bill is actually net-net fairly positive, but where democrats are struggling is with the build back better bill. this second $1.75 trillion bill they're trying to pass right now. that's where they're having an even bigger messaging problem. so you had maloney say it's not just these 1,000 events they need to get at, but they need every cabinet member traveling the country, making the pitch here. they need to, you know, cut ads of rob portman saying -- and we talked about this yesterday, mika -- this bipartisan infrastructure bill is actually going to be positive in terms of helping fight inflationary effects we've seen throughout the country so far. make a similar argument, potentially, when it comes to build back better. >> okay. then according to a "politico" poll, a new poll, actually, out this morning, american concerns, the economy and inflation are top, top, top priorities. nicholas wu, how will build back better -- what will it be? is it in this legislation that was just passed or the one they're still aiming for that americans will really feel like the positive results of? because i'm still seeing what they're going to see as consumers out there as so negative, that there might be a great story out of d.c., but, you know, how people feel about their pocketbooks and about their day to day life, it may not be so good. >> exactly, mika. i asked democratic leaders about this yesterday in the press conference. what was their message to people that are concerned about inflation as it hit this 30-year high and as you're trying to push through this $1.75 trillion piece of legislation. they said, basically, that build back better and actions by the president will be the things to address inflation. as congressman hakeem jeffries put it, he thought build back better was going to address things like prescription drugs, child care, that are major cost-drivers for americans. the question is really, are americans going to credit democrats for bringing those prices down? i mean, we saw after the recovery act, after the housing crisis, a sign was put up around the projects saying it was funded by the recovery act. democrats still lost the house. >> joe, jump in. >> i was just going to say, david ignatius, you know, we remember the '70s. i didn't think mika did until i started talking about my dad just complaining every time he would go. over the course of four years, gas would go from 33 cents a gallon to $1 a gallon. we were shocked. >> crazy. >> i was telling mika the story to say that people these days do not understand, these politicians, most of them do not remember the hell of inflation throughout the end of the '70s. it cost jimmy carter the presidency. people talk about the iranian hostage crisis. also, 21% interest rates, not good. mika recounted to me how she remembered going up and down old dominion road, i think it was, and would see a mile of cars lined up, trying to get gas. so here you have, again, parallels with -- much more dramatic then than now, but a shortage on grocery shelves through supply chains. then you have inflation. it is, man, for any party in power, it is a double whammy. >> joe biden does not want to be in that territory. let's urge him not to wear a cardigan sweater the way jimmy carter did back in those days. it is true, once inflation gets embedded, it is just a terrible, terrible problem to wrench it out of the economy. i remember the first house i bought. the interest rate was a floating interest rate, initially above 10%. just amazing to think about just how inflationary that the country was. it was because of expectations that had gotten built in. people are right to worry, that we're beginning to think, okay, we're back to this inflationary period. that begins to be a price driver in itself. i think biden is right to be worried that this could cost him the presidency if he runs again. more to the point, it could cost us the health of our economy. so taking inflation seriously, i'll say one more thing. when the congressional budget office scores the build back better bill and says, "this is, this fact, fully paid for," i think the inflationary argument begins to go away. hopefully joe manchin will say, "i was waiting for this. i now think this is not inflationary." then you get joe manchin saying this is good for the economy, not dangerous. that's going to be important. >> yeah. nicholas, before i ask you sort of to prognosticate about the cbo score, joe, i have another pro tip from the carter administration. if you have high gas prices and, you know, not to, like, force the entire administration to not use air-conditioning, then have a national security adviser that took the lamp shade off the lamp, then put the bulb, i guess, by the thermostat and got his office really cool. everyone got really mad. don't do that. >> i really do think, actually, your father may have been responsible for carter's loss in 1980 because he drove up energy prices so much in the carter administration by rigging the process. >> he did. >> air-conditioning. >> so proud of him. >> in his own office. >> yeah. >> exactly. the thing is, if the bill is paid for, that's what joe manchin talked about. if the bill is paid for and you're not flushing, you know, another $1.75 trillion out of the government into the economy, 7 trillion, $8 trillion has been thrown out there the last couple years, then it is not inflationary, but it has to be paid for. that's going to be the democrats' biggest challenge, to get it paid for, to get it scored as neutral, and, nicholas, if that is, in fact, the case. >> then chances are good you take joe manchin saying it needs to be paid for, and then you have rob portman, bush's former omb director saying that it is anti-inflationary. well, that's a good enough argument for the moderate democrats in the senate. >> exactly. i mean, all eyes right now in congress are on the congressional budget office. they've had they would put out these figures, estimating the cost of the bill by the end of this day, friday. it's still kind of in flux as to whether congress could stay through the weekend or, you know, potentially later. but the key thing here is to watch for whether or not this will satisfy this group of house moderates who really wanted to see, even if not the bill was entirely paid for, to see if the estimate would be in line with their own expectations for how much of the bill would be paid for and how much things would cost. that's something that, you know, a few reporters and i are watching closely. >> "politico's" nicholas wu, thank you for coming on. from "morning joe," seeming straight out of a movie. 52 years ago, a young bank teller vanished with $215,000 in stolen cash. how u.s. marshals finally identified one of the nation's most wanted fugitives. plus, another incredible story. this one about a new york psychiatrist who went beyond those sacred boundaries of doctor-patient relationship. we'll be joined by the veteran journalist who turned the story into a popular podcast and now an apple tv series. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. my nunormal? fewer asthma attacks with nucala. a once-monthly add-on injection for severe 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(phone chimes) ♪ ♪ ♪ i jump up on the stage ♪ ♪ and do my money dance ♪ ♪ i throw some money up ♪ ♪ and watch the money land ♪ ♪ i do my, i do my i do my money dance ♪ move your student loan debt to sofi - you could save with low rates and no fees. earn a $500 bonus when you refi... and get your money right. ♪ i do my money dance ♪ said it was your funeral. >> i have a telegram for ya. >> left early. please come with the money or you keep the car. all my love. ♪♪ thank you. >> mcqueen. the scene from the 1968 "thomas crown affair," in which steve mcqueen plays a millionaire businessman who hatches a scheme to rob a bank because he's bored. classic film that may have inspired the subject of our next story. one of the country's most wanted fugitives has been identified after more than 50 years now. the u.s. marshal service announced last week it identified theodore conrad, who had been living under the name thomas randle, as the man behind one of the biggest bank robberies in cleveland's history. officials say conrad died of lung cancer in may, but not before confessing his crime to his family. joining us now, "washington post" reporter jonathan edwards, who just wrote about conrad's crime, how he pulled it off, and how investigators finally cracked the case. jonathan, this is a fascinating story. i'll let you tell us. essentially, something the fbi couldn't crack solved by an obituary 52 years later. >> exactly. this was a 20-year-old man, young guy who kind of became a little bit obsessed with the "thomas crown affair." like a lot of young men who watch action movies, probably bragged to his friends, "hey, i could do this. this would be easy." difference is, he actually did it and got away with it for the rest of his life. more than half a century. >> jonathan, he steals the equivalent of $1.7 million. it was $200,000 some back then. in modern money, it is almost $2 million. did he tell anyone else in those 50 years, and what was that effectively deathbed confession to his family like? >> yeah. sounds like he did write in a letter to his girlfriend that he had committed the crime and regretted it, but the crack in the case that allowed the u.s. marshals to solve it was the deathbed confession. >> so let me ask you this. what did he do with the money? >> sounds like he spent it. all of it. he filed for bankruptcy. >> sam is not impressed. it is not a big heist. >> i am impressed. i think it's a lot of money. >> okay. >> the fact he was elusive for 50 years is incredible. >> incredible. >> on the pantheon of crimes committed, this seems like, you know, mid tier. there's a lot of really serious crimes. maybe it's not the most serious. i'm glad that he was caught. i guess my question is, do they, like, take the money back somehow? it's already spent. >> how did they not catch him? my gosh. >> well, he had been obsessed with the "thomas crown affair," saw the movie like a half a dozen times. after he stole the money, he left what u.s. marshals called an unassuming life. he literally changed his name from ted conrad to thomas, but thomas rendell, and he didn't rob banks for amusement. he started a family. he was a golf pro. he sold cars for 40 years. he lived in suburban boston. >> whoa. joe, jump in. >> yeah, thank you, sam, for throwing cold water on this story. it is absolutely fascinateling. >> fascinating. >> sorry, sam needs a line of dead bodies before he even pays attention to a story. >> yeah. >> this is fascinating because you have this middle class kid out of ohio. this is one of the biggest robberies in cleveland history. he's on the fbi's most wanted list of fugitives for 52 years. i think a great subtext to this, and i suspect we may see a tv series or movie out of this at some point, which sam won't watch and nobody will care because everybody else will be watching. >> i will. >> but i love the father/son part of this. a father investigates this kid because he lives nearby, and he continues the investigation. he retires in the early '90s. still chasing this guy. his son takes over, begins the investigation. starts tracking him down right before the fugitive's death. then some very moving words that the son says about his father who passed away, i believe, in 2020. tell us about that. >> yeah. you're exactly right. it was this father/son duo. even after he retired in '90, he just never gave up on the case. kept investigating it. even recently, father and son had worked together, john and peter elliott, to match documents he had filled out as ted conrad as a college student in the '60s with documents from a 2014 bankruptcy proceeding in boston. so he'd been retired for more than a decade at that point. >> whoa. >> the dad was still at it, still wanted to solve it. up until, joe, like you said, until he passed away last year. >> yeah. mika, it's so interesting. jonathan's story explains that it was the obituary that cracked the case. because when they read the obituary, they were getting close, but they read the o -- obituary. same date of birth, parents' sc wrote. when people do this, they usually don't go very far from home, at least certainly not in that obituary. they lined those dates up and said, "we found our guy." >> my god. the "washington post" jonathan edwards, if that's your real name, thank you. >> call your agent, jonathan. >> everybody but sam really thought this was a great story. we really appreciated it. >> call your agent. call your agent, jonathan. you may make more money than he stole. coming up, our next guest is touting the infrastructure bill in her home state. unlike a republican colleague, she actually voted for it. assistant speaker of the house katherine clark joins the conversation. first, will farrell and paul rudd teamed up in one of "morning joe's" favorite movies. well, actually no. "anchorman." >> one of the greatest movies of all time. >> i didn't like it. >> citizen cane, gone with the wind, wedding crashers, and anchorman tied with old school for the greatest movies of all time. >> now, the two are back for a new series, "the shrink next door." it is amazing. we'll dig into that true story next on "morning joe." ♪ ♪ so light 'em up, up, up light 'em up, up, up ♪ ♪ light 'em up, up, up ♪ ♪ i'm on fire ♪ ♪ so light 'em up, up, up light 'em... ♪ psoriatic arthritis, made my joints stiff, swollen, painful. tremfya® is approved to help reduce joint symptoms in adults with active psoriatic arthritis. some patients even felt less fatigued. serious allergic reactions may occur. tremfya® may increase your risk of infections and lower your ability to fight them. tell your doctor if you have an infection or symptoms or if you had a vaccine or plan to. tremfya®. emerge tremfyant™. janssen can help you explore cost support options. 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the goal of life is to live. getting hurt is the price of admission, my friend. so what do you want? >> um, okay, yes, i would like to have -- it would be my sincere wish for you to make me, um, yes -- yeah, let's go with the turkey on white bread, dry, with a single piece of lettuce. no, no, no, no. what about the roast beef? maybe roast beef on a kaiser, maybe? what do you think? >> i think you should take some responsibility in making decisions. pick a sandwich, okay? go. just say whatever comes out. pick. anything. don't think. >> turkey. >> that's it. there we go. done. turkey sandwich, bland. >> that's a look at the new apple tv plus series "the shrink next door." based on the popular podcast of the same name tells a truth story of what happens when a therapist crosses boundaries so far that he takes over his patient's life. with us, the host of the podcast is with us. joe, they put the first three shows out, then i did what i suspect everybody did that's watching this great show so far, i said, "wait, is this true? what happened here?" i saw the "time" article, get halfway down, and there you are as the person next door in the hamptons going, "wait a second, something is wrong here." take us through it. >> that's exactly what happened. my wife and i bought a cottage in the hamptons. we were under the impression, as everyone was, that the next door neighbor was this big shot new york psychiatrist. this little guy wearing, you know, a green uniform was the caretaker. come back in 2011, he's gone. the caretaker comes to my house with a woman and says, "joe, meet my woman, phillip. i haven't seen her in 27 years." i'm like, huh? what are you talking about? he then explains. it had been his house. then he said the shrink became president of my company. the shrink co-signed my account, restarted a foundation together. the patient would put the money in. shrink would take the money out. it is an extraordinary example of a psychiatrist manipulating a patient. by the way, marty isn't the only one he did it to. we found examples of -- in one case, a woman willing $20 million to ike's children, for instance, until she came to her senses. marty willed the house to ike's wife before he came to his senses. >> you know, of course, he had such a close relationship with his sister, and the psychiatrist blew that relationship apart. also, i read in the "time" article, and what you've talked about on the podcast, even if he dated somebody, the psychiatrist would never let him get past one date, saying, "they're just gold-diggers, just after your money," keeping him completely isolated. >> that's right. the only person ike wanted marty to communicate with was ike. listen, it got to the point where marty was typing his letters to other patients. marty was typing his unpublished novels. marty was paying for this. he was paying while he was working for ike. i mean, the whole thing is just -- it's unbelievable. you ask marty, why did you do this? he really doesn't have a good answer, why he came under ike's thumb so profoundly. >> joe, it's willie. this is a fascinating story. the podcast version and now the show. you have rudd and will, and it is different from what you'd expect from the two of them, so good. i'm curious why ike saw marty as an easy mark over the years. what was it that he thought, i can manipulate this guy and, over the years, get millions of dollars from his bank account and truly take control of his life. how did he do that to marty? >> well, i think it's two things. first of all, he saw how vulnerable marty was in the beginning. he was having all these problems, and he didn't really know how to solve them. so ike problems. so ike said i'll solve them for you. and instead of saying that you are just my shrink, we should not be taking walks around the block. and marty said okay, great, do it, help me. and so immediately you realize that the patient doesn't understand what the boundaries are. and the second thing is, once ike realized that marty would do whatever he said, he just kept pushing, pushing, pushing until he had him completely under his control. and marty never really had the wherewithal to say -- marty became completely dependent on ike's judgment instead of his own judgment.y and ike relationship reminds me of myself and sam stein. >> who is who? >> no spoilers. no spoilers here. but give us more of a sense of the other examples here where he found other patients that he dominated in this way. >> this is crazy. >> i have to tell you, these are so heartbreaking. but in episode four of the podcast, we have three women who were manipulated by ike. and the worst one, oh, man, she -- ike told her that her mother was -- she fought with her mother a lot. and her mother was a holocaust survivor as was ike's father. and mother. and ike eventually said you have to shut yourself off from your other. and so she didn't invite her mother to her daughter's bat mitzvah. and she lost her uncles, aunts, even in her family. she is completely alone. and she knows what is mistake this was. bond she allowed ike to take advantage of her anger to isolate her from everybody in her family and she never was able to get any of them back. even in the podcast -- all of the people who know her identified her by her voice in the podcast. and even after the podcast, none of them would talk to her. just broke my heart. and then there is another wealthy woman where ike took one of her paintings off the wall in her office, took to his house. and she is the one who did the $20 million will to the daughters. and, you know, they would have their quote/unquote therapy at the fanciest restaurants in new york and he would by $300 battles of wine and that would be called therapy. just beyond belief. >> and can you -- joe, any idea why it took new york state so long to strip him of his license? i know that they finally did. i guess this past year. but why did it take them so long? >> listen, if they -- if we hadn't done this podcast, he'd be practicing to this day. marty had a complaint in for five years. and every time he'd call them, they would say we're investigating, we're investigating. nothing ever happened. and then finally the podcast comes out and, you know, within two weeks, they called marty and they say send us all your documents. you know. and it is just -- you know, it is a bureaucracy. they don't like to turn on doctors. and they do it very reluctantly. >> well, they did it because of you and your digging and your podcast. good job. congratulations. the podcast and the new and the tv series by the same name is" the shrink next door." and you know, we've been watching it and it has been really compelling. we talk about will ferrell and paul rudd, but also catherine hawn as his sister, just -- >> fabulous. >> just a great great actress. >> it is a compelling series. disturbing but you can't stop watching. and now that you know that it is true, i always like true to life docu-series. and this is incredible. what a story. still ahead, former president trump never shies away from attacking republicans. and now gop lawmakers are increasingly turning on each other. so what is kevin mccarthy doing about it? 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christopher miller personally offered then president trump extreme military scenarios in the final weeks of his a presidency to prevent him from choosing to attack iran. but he opted for attacking to the u.s. >> welcome back to "morning joe." it is wednesday, november 17. as we head into the top of the hour, president biden will travel to detroit today to visit a general motors electric vehicle assembly plant and tout his newly signed infrastructure bill. but it comes as he faces new democratic resistance to his much bigger social spending plan. and chief white house correspondent peter alexander has the details. >> reporter: president biden showcasing a decaying new hampshire bridge set for repairs thanks to his newly signed infrastructure package. >> when you see these projects starting, i want you to feel pride, pride of what we can do together as the united states of america. >> reporter: and the president's trip an earth to demonstrate real results to voters whose polls show are pessimistic about his presidency and the economy, amid record inflation impacting everything from gas to groceries. >> your life is going to change for the better and that is literal. >> reporter: still many projects are unlikely to begin for months if not longer ahead offage impending showdown over the 1.75 social and climate spending plan. house speaker nancy pelosi is pressuring democrats to vote on the bill this week. but holdout senator joe manchin remains worried about inflation, unconvinced that the president's massive spending proposal will lower everyday costs for americans. >> i hear it when i go to the grocery store or the gas station, they say are you as mad as i am and i say absolutely. >> david, using the same quote when it comes to these types of issues. you have to put the hay down where the goats can eat it or the horses can eat it. and in politics, you got to get to where people live. they don't live in the hallways of congress. they don't -- most americans that will vote in 2022 don't care whether a bill is $1.75 trillion or $2.3 trillion. and all the back and forth and debate. it is about how much does gas cost, how much do groceries cost, how much more does it cost now than it cost them a couple months ago. when they go to the grocery store or walmart, are there shelves that are empty. that is something that americans are not used to. they weren't used to gas lines as mika and i were saying earlier in the 1970s. they are not used to these shortages. joe biden and the democratic party have to obsess on inflation, the supply shortage, and how a shortage of workers is really damaging small business owners, family restaurants, family hardware stores across america. >> joe, joe biden got elected on the promise that he'd put america back to normal order again. the terrible ravages of covid would be solved, that we'd have good professional leadership for our government, that the disruptions of the trump years would be past. and he's having trouble delivering on that and i think that that is why successful execution of the "build back better" part of his package is crucial for democrats to jointly take credit for a solid country on the benefits of an infrastructure bill, taking inflation seriously, all those things that are part of good government that people i think yearn for, the ability to make washington work, that has to be biden's central message. and we'll see over the next few weeks whether he can get some traction for that. it will be crucial i think to have support from democrats, unified support from democrats, not bickering. >> and so in his latest column for the "washington post" entitled "democrats are on course to lose in 202 and 2024 and we may lose our democracy." max writes in part, that it is still possible that an improving economy and republican stumbles will save the president and his party. but i spy three threats ahead that together could doom democrats. first and most worrisome is inflation. second big threat is no surprise covid-19. those who were longing for a clear exit from the pandemic aren't going to get what they wanted. and the third, the third threat, is progressive overreach. with a year to go before the midterms, it is not too late for democrats to change course. but now is the time to hit the panic button. biden needs to make some dramatic changes if democrats are to have any hope of holding on to even one house of congress and the white house. i am terrified that democrats will lose in 2022 and 2024. and that as a result, we could lose our democracy. so let's start right there with assistant speaker of the house democratic congresswoman catherine clark of massachusetts. nice to have you. in the break we were talking about when we might see the next bill go through and what might be in it. and what do you make of max boots' concerns about progressive overreach? because americans right now are dealing with kitchen table issues and their wallets are being hit hard. >> that's right. and i hear it everywhere we go. people are anxious. this has been terrible for them in the economy. they are looking at gas prices, they go to the grocery store and see increases. >> so isn't that why max boot is concerned about progressive overreach on certain issues when you are listing the issues that they want to see a difference on? >> let me tell you, i'm not sure what he is referring to because what we are focused on are meet being those exact concerns of family. let's look back. the american rescue plan. free vaccines. reopen schools. made investments in people who were struggling. eviction moratorium so people could get back on their feet. not a single republican vote. and then we go to the bipartisan infrastructure that was just signed in to law on monday. looking at ways to modernize our ports, our airports, so that we can protect the supply chain. and this week we will turn to the "build back better" agenda. which will extend the historic tax cut for families. it will bring down the cost of child care and home care that we know is one of the biggest bills on a family's table. it will bring down the cost of prescription drugs. what are my are not colleagues offering? they are offering to kick people off of committees who voted for roads and bridges. when we talk about meeting the needs of the american people, the democrats are the ones stepping up. >> they are. and i hear you. point taken on the republicans and point taken on some of the factors that you listed in these bills being great for americans. i do not argue with that at all. and a lot of women have been waiting a long time for some pieces of what is coming hopefully. but unfortunately, what we're dealing with right now with supply chain crisis, with gas prices and i think that the concern is that democrats and this administration might miss its nose in front of its face because if those issues aren't solved, they may lose in the midterms and in 2024. >> so let's look at -- >> how does it address those issues? >> let's go back to the bipartisan bill. one of the things was supply chain, that for years we've talked about doing an infrastructure bill. president biden got it done. that is billions of dollars in opening into our ports, into our airports, moderniing that, into electric vehicle infrastructure so while we're improing our supply chains we're also making them greener. and back to your comment about women, we know that this is a "she" session. we know women have been hit harder by this pandemic economically. and are still leaving the workforce in record numbers. and that is why we're coming forward with president biden and saying we understand that this is about child care. and we are on the verge of expanding child care to a record numb. and also universal pre-k. we haven't been this close to this expansion of public education which will save families on average $8,000 a year since the nixon administration. >> i don't disagree with that. i just want to point out another clarion call of concern from the editorial pages, this from thomas edsel, his piece entitled "democrats shouldn't panic, they should go into shock." in the rise of inflation, supply chain shortages, a surge in illegal border crossings, persistence of covid, mayhem in afghanistan and the uproof over critical race theory, all of these developments individually and collectively have taken their toll on president biden and democratic candidates. so much so that democrats are now the underdogs going into 2022 and possibly 2024. edsel goes on to note that the dismal poll numbers which tells the tale as things stand, if the midterm elections were today, 51% of registered voters say that they would support the republican in their congressional district, 41% say the democrat. that's the biggest lead for republicans in the 110 year abc post polls that have asked this question since 1981. and he continues, these and other friends have provoked a deepening pessimism about democratic prospects in 2022 and anxiety about the 2024 presidential election. the numbers are even worse for democrats in eight states expected to have the closest senate elections, arizona, florida, georgia, nevada, new hampshire, north carolina, pennsylvania and wisconsin. not only is biden's overall job approval rating in those state 3/3%, 10 pointer lower than the rest of the country, but registered voters in these eight states say that they are more likely to vote for republican house candidates than for democrats by 23 points. joe, this is at this point just the question is, are these bills and you can take it back to catherine clark, do these bills address what is coming at us? >> not inflation goes. but infrastructure is important. when people start seeing the roads and bridges and the water, the impact that is happening over the next year, that will make a big difference. when they read the articles about how many jobs will be created and how roads -- all these things that have been problems in their local areas will be taken care of, that will have an impact. and the "build back better" bill, there are provisions in there that are still popular. overall the bill is more popular. but you look at these numbers and i haven't seen really numbers this dreadful since i brought my progress reports home to my parents in middle school and high school. but that is the thing. they are progress reports. so my parents go oh, he's getting an f, but at least he has a couple d minuses. so you have time to fix things. democrats have time between now and the '22 midterms to right the ship. i think that the economy naturally in some areas, you are going to see a righting of the ship naturally in some areas, the supply chain gridlock that donald trump had to deal with, that joe biden is having to deal with, probably is going to be worked out a bit better. you will see people getting back to work more over the next six months or so. but the big question really is inflation. but jonathan lemire, let's talk about the numbers as they are here. i remember reading the number this is weekend. not only from the abc poll but also from the "wall street journal"/nbc news poll. and i said my god, i don't remember seeing numbers this bad, whether you are talking about this 10 point spread on the generic ballot because as a former republican, i know anytime that we went in even on a generic ballot, that meant that we would win by a land slide. just did. and then you look where democrats are minus 15, minus 20 on inflation, minus 15, minus 20 on the economy. a bigger gap ever between two parties right now on the economy? where democrats have -- are -- have a more negative view of them, a bigger gap with republicans than ever before? in the history of the nbc news poll? again, it is bad all over. does it mean that they will get wiped out next year? no. but this things don't radically change, they are. and the question is, what is the biden white house doing about it, do they understand how much trouble that they are in right now. >> the poll numbers are certainly bad, you mentioned the generic congressional ballot and we have seen repeated polls that show that the president is hitting low broader marks. and the aides that i talk to acknowledge that this could get worse before it gets better. the supply chain issues could snarl the holidays. and covid cases have started ticking back up and there is real worry that they could again. americans will be congregating indoors, they travel, there may be an uptick there but offset by good news about boosters and children vaccinations and so on. but the aides i he talk to are taking a longer view. and in terms of that they have time to fix this. they feel like that as we start to turn to early 2022, that the americans will see the more tangible benefits of the "build back better" and they hope that it will be done and set by then despite other concerns in the senate. and that will give americans things that they can look at concretely and also democrats something to run upon. and they feel up for the midterms and they feel like that that will make a difference, and they will start to see as covid cases decline again in the spring, that they will be in much better shape heading into the midterms that they look at this point. they have time. >> and can i weigh in here? we are going into the midterms and let's look at the contrast between democrats and republicans. every single race comes down to are you going to fight for me, do you see me. that is where democrats are meeting the needs of the american people. we are working on supply chain. the president has made the ports open 24/7. we are in the middle of a global pandemic and these forces are coming to play. but it is much more than working on our supply chain. it is also meeting these crucial needs. this bill that we just passed is 2 million new jobs every single year. we are his tore lick tax cuts for families. nothe wealthy and big corporations. >> but you already told us about those tax cuts. only thing americans have seen is democrats fighting each other in the halls of congress. has that been a dredful mistake by the democratic party to just have fights over numbers in the hallway? do they understand on the -- >> joe, let me -- >> on the house side that they need to get behind closed doors and get that done and start talking about what impacts american people on the grocery shelves and gas stations? >> let me tell you what i heard from a constituent just a few weeks ago about the child tax credit, the tax cut we were talking about. this was a single dad whose wife had been severely disabled with a stroke in child birth and he is raising his daughter on his own. he said that he couldn't even believe that he was getting this help that he never understood the positive role that this could have in his life until it helped him meet the increased cost 6 diapers and milk for his young daughter. these are the real stories that americans are feeling from the work that we are doing. we'll lower the cost of insulin to $35 a month cap. and that is a victory for the american people. what are the republicans offer something they are whipping against investments in roads and bridges. they are saying to american women that you are not welcome back in the economy. we don't care about creating jobs. we don't care about working to address climate change. >> but how do you get that message out? because you look at the poll numbers, and the stories that you are telling, obviously are not breaking through. democrats are getting obliterated on just about every issue right now. even issues where they should be leading republicans. so what is happening and how do you get that message out more effectively? >> you know, let me tell you what the democrats did last week. we fanned out at home. we stood in front of the -- in massachusetts, 500 bridges that are in a state of disrepair. i went to child care centers and some with my colleagues in michigan, and heard from priors who are waiting for this money because they know what a lifeline it is for kids, for families. we are going to take these bills and show the american people that we hear them. we see them. we understand those issues that keep them awake at night, that they talk about around their kitchen tables. and let's talk about what the republicans are doing. nothing. they are just hoping that this pandemic and the chaos that it has brought will usher them back in. that is not a strategy for addressing the economic anxiety. >> thank you very much. and paid family leave, will that be in there? >> yes. >> do you think that it will make it through the senate? >> we'll do everything that we can. >> okay. still ahead, the latest from the courthouse in kenosha, ahead of the start of a second day of deliberations among jurors chosen to decide the fate of kyle rittenhouse by the defendant himself. plus president trump continues to roll out a steady stream of endorsements targeting fellow republicans who join democrats in voting for his impeachment, the creation of the january 6 committee or the newly signed infrastructure bill. how party leadership is trying to keep republicans from attacking each other. and a behind the scenes look at how a bold idea for a subscription service changed television forever. you're watching "morning joe." 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referred to as sellouts and, quote, known losers. >> wow. >> yeah. >> i was just going to say though, you know, democrats if you look at the latest poll numbers, they are doing absolutely dreadful. if you look at issue and issue, this democrat party, kind of like donald trump, if they behaved rationale could have a shoo-in in 2022. but look at the senate candidates and in the house what donald trump is doing this, is donald trump just like he did in georgia in the georgia senate races. just like that he is doing in georgia with herschel walker and all these others who have been accused of beating their wives and girlfriends. he is throwing them a lifeline every day. >> absolutely. the problem for the republican party is that donald trump remains as motivational for democrats as republicans. so as long as he is continuing to stay in the mix, democrats are going to stay motivated. democratic voters. some of these challengers, some of the activity that donald trump has been up to in recent days especially in michigan really takes me back to that awful moment, when he talked about john dingell and devastating his legacy. and the trump at the trump rally was disbushed and i think maybe even booed. and so i think that donald trump will find that he can motivate his base, but it will also motivate democrats. the democrats need to get their act together, no doubt about that, but i think that their voters will be motivated more against donald trump than some of the moderate democrats. >> and as trump does trump, kevin mccarthy is reportedly trying to keep those attacks from spreading across the party. at a closed door meeting of the gop conference yesterday, mccarthy urged members to focus their attacks on democrats and not each other. some far right members who are closely aligned with former president trump have begun attacking fellow republicans who voted for the $550 billion infrastructure package. so trying to keep them from fighting mondays themselves. >> no doubt about it. and here is the problem. kevin mccarthy has sacrificed his political soul to be speaker of the house. donald trump is saying more and more every day how little respect he has for kevin mccarthy because he is not siding with the really extreme members of that republican caucus. he's trying to act like what a speaker in waiting should ask and needs to act. but he can't do that. so in the words of my grandma, you don't want to let the horse out of the barn. the horse is starting to get out of the barn and pretty soon up see the most extreme members of the republican party inside the house caucus dominating what goes on there. >> i agree, it is painful to watch some of republicans pledge loyalty to the person they know is wrecking the party that they grew up in. kevin mccarthy, hard to feel sympathy for him given some of the leadership that he has shown. but many republicans who know better just feel that they cannot break free of trump's influences, his gravitational field. as we head to 2024, i think that there will be more attempts to rebell. you will see republicans speaking out a little bit in private conversations with people like me saying, you know, don't bet on trump being the nominee. but erk i think that there is a sense of people feeling restricted. trump of course loves the attention. he just wants to be back in the news. meanwhile republicans around the country i think are trying to figure out is there a way in the party that are some independence from trump. and coming up, unusual moments in the courtroom in kenosha. kyle rittenhouse randomly selected the men and women who will decide should he be held criminally responsible. ally rese [gaming sounds] [gaming sounds] [gaming sounds] just think, he'll be driving for real soon. every new chevy equinox comes standard with chevy safety assist, including automatic emergency braking. find new peace of mind. find new roads. chevrolet. with relapsing forms of ms... there's a lot to deal with. not just 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your network from anywhere, anytime. it's network management redefined. every day in business is a big day. we'll keep you ready for what's next. comcast business powering possibilities. here is a look at some of the other headlines this morning. the jury in the kyle rittenhouse trial will continue deliberations today. and the judge allowed rittenhouse to decide which juries would decide his fate through random draw. gabe guttierez has the details. >> people come here for reasons that do not bring to this good to this community. we don't want you here. >> you've been retired to consider your verdict. >> reporter: rittenhouse himself picked at random six juror alternates that will remain in the courthouse in a separate room while the other 12 deliberate. seven women and five men including one person of color. >> if the jury finds that rittenhouse provoked the initial attack then rittenhouse may lose the argument of self-defense completely. >> reporter: he is charged with five felony counts. the prosecution portraying him as a then 17-year-old vigilante. >> you cannot claim self defense against a danger you create. >> reporter: and the defense insisting that there was a rush to judgment. >> every person who was shot was attacking kyle. kyle shot joseph rosenbaum to stop the threat to his person. and i'm glad he shot him. >> reporter: the heated case became a rallying cry for conservatives and gun rights supporters, many who raised money for rittenhouse's defense and $2 million bail. >> doyou view it as an attack on the second amendment? >> yes. people say that he was a original planvigilante. but he was one of husband. >> but for the girlfriend, it is about accountability. >> i think that real justice honestly would be at the bare minimum just some consequence for his actions. >> our thankses to gabe guttierez for that report. and just following up on what gabe said about some people claiming that this is a second amendments rights case, it is not. i mean, it is really not. if you support the second amendment, if you support gun safety, actually the last thing that you want are minors having guns they shouldn't be carrying around, carrying around ar-15s because they think that they are fun. this is again just -- this is not a case for anybody to rally around on either side. and a person who i thought spoke very eloquently to this was david french who is a huge second amendment rights supporter. in fact we've had debates back and forth on the second amendment through the years. but in david's latest column for the atlantic, it is entitled "kyle rittenhouse is no heo," he writes that the trumpist right is wrongly creating a folk hero out of rittenhouse. for millions he's become a positive symbol, a young man of action who stepped up when the police stepped aside. when you turn a foolish young man into a hero, you will see more foolish young men try to emulate his example. and although the take it should not permit rioters to run rampant, random groups are incapable of imposing order themselves and any effort do so can lead to greater death and carnage. acquittal does not make a foolish man a hero. a political movement that turns a deadly and ineffective vigilante into a role model is a movement that is courting more violence and encouraging more to have more blood in america's street. and david also said that kyle rittenhouse getting acquitted will not be a miscarriage of justice. at the same time, his foolish and reckless actions should not make him a hero to anybody. he should instead serve as a warning to people on all sides of the political spectrum. >> yeah. accountability in some way. let's move now to rapper travis scott, apple music and epic records are among those facing a $750 million lawsuit on behalf of more than 120 people killed or injured at the astroworld concert and their family members. the suit alleges concertgeconce suffered mental and physical distress due to the gross negligence against. and in supreme 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"game of thrones," "the wire," sopranos, just some of the main critically a.m. acclaimed shows that have called hbo their home since the network launched in 1972. joining us now, award-winning journalist and best selling author jim miller, his new book titled "tinderbox." so great to see you. i hardly know where to begin on that list of shows because there are a bunch that we left out. veep, curb your enthusiasm. so many that hbo has turned out. but let's go back to the beginning of the story. the golden age of television started with hbo. and so what is the impact of hbo, how different was it before and after? >> well, thanks for having me. look, i think that there is no disputing the fact that hbo fundamentally changed television. for the past 49 years, it has the big three networks at the time and later with fox, i think that one of the things that i tried do in it book is identify those moments where there was the proverbial fork in the road and networks would have done one thing and hbo decided to do another. when they shot the pilot for "the sopranos," this didn't do well. they tested it with audiences. something that they decided they didn't need to do anymore. but networks wouldn't have probably ordered to series but hbo decided that they had a lot of faith in this thing, they believed in it and so they went ahead. and "succession," they wanted to today a family show and they had a great script. and they decided we don't need stars for this. we believe in the material. we believe in the creator. and so you can see throughout the history of hbo, and this includes documentaries, and sports, and movies. the movies that they did. they are always trying to be an outlier and they are taking a fundamentally different approach. >> yeah, you mentioned the sort of wisdom of letting creators create. and i have to mention richard pletle represent who said i just want to be the place where i can attract the best and let them do their things. they won't get a bunch of notes from me. hired you because i trusted you. and i want to ask you about the sopranos and what was going on during the making of that shoaf and really what that character of tony soprano did to the real life james gandolfini. he says to friends many times i don't think that you understand what this is doing to me. what did he mean by that? >> well, i think that jim gandolfini was very honest with people and honest with himself most importantly about the fact that there were things about hms as a human being dating back to when he was probably 16, 17 that were dark and difficult for him. so when you all of a sudden inhabit this character of tony soprano, it is hard to not let it bleed into your life. and that is why he sometimes said that he felt like he had to take a shower after shooting some scenes because it was bringing up this dark side in him. and it was a very difficult show for him do even though he did it has masterfully. >> and i want to talk to you you about a couple different periods. first of all, the beginning. i remember our first introduction, my family's first introduction to hbo was the steve miller -- not steve miller -- steve martin standup routine. we had never heard of this guy before. and steve martin through hbo, which was sort of -- it was this new channel, but steve martin exploited and a lot of people don't remember, this was before he became a superstar. but this was like another channel out of like nowhere, from mars, where you have steve martin and this hodge-podge of movies. it was a wild, wild west back then, wasn't it? >> well, you know, i think that it is such a great example because the truth is, if you are a comedian back in the '70s and '80s, if you get to go on the "tonight show," you will have four minutes with johnny and the network sensors will do, you know -- they will do a deep dive on every single word that you say. compare that to hbo where basically they had -- they could show nudity, you could say curse words, no commercials and of course violence. violence. for a comedian like george carlin, like steve martin, liar eddie murphy, one of the things that hbo does is it owns comedy and it owns music. there are incredible music specials. if you're a comedian, you get to go on for like an hour, you get to say whatever you want. through a rodney dangerfield special. all of a sudden there's this incredible freedom from censorship and you have a network that is not only encouraging -- not only letting you do what you want to do, but they're encouraging you to push barrier, and that was a fundamental sea change. >> yeah. and then another fundamental sea change came, one of my favorite stories about hbo and really tv was when jeff bucus decided he was going to take a risk with "band of brothers." he got the final vote from his father, this is going to cost a lot, dad, can i do it. he talked about sitting down with steven spielberg and said how would we do something this big. spielberg got a napkin out, wrote it out, said here's your budget. he saved that, and jeff said maybe he was off a couple hundred thousand dollars, but he said that he envisioned this grand sweeping historical thing that tv just hadn't done yet. and jeff bucus gave it the green light, and it really did change the size and the scope of tv. that's why we have "the crown" and why we've had "game of thrones" and a lot of these other epic series. >> well, you know, the point that you bring up also is that money became something that hbo was is not going to let get in the way of doing what it you wanted to do. when tom hanks wanted to do from earth to the moon, they originally thought it was going to cost about $30 million. it wound up costing more than the movie, "apollo 13." tom was so exacting about paying attention to history that he found out that there was the vowels on the astronaut's uniform and it was on the wrong side of the uniform. we can't have that, so all of a sudden they spent $100,000 going back and changing every single costume to make sure it was on the other side. you try doing that at a network, forget it. yet time and time again hbo made sure that the authenticity and most importantly, as in the case of tom hanks and steven spielberg, these people feel like they have control over the content, and they can be as proud of it as they need to be afterwards. >> hey, jim, jonathan lemire, congrats on the book. let's move up to the buzziest show on the network, at least in circles like this one. talk to us if you will about did they know they had that show that it was going to be this phenomenon. where does hbo go next? what are sort of their next steps? what are the shows they're looking for? what audiences are they trying to reach? >> one of the thing that happens when you cover 49 years of content, you start to realize that goldman, which is sometimes nobody knows anything. a lot of these things, every show that a network puts on or even hbo, they think are going to work. with succession, there's two important things. first of all, they decided to do the show, and they said we don't need big stars. we believe in this material. we think these characters are so great. we think the writing is so great. so we don't need big stars to prop it up. i think at another network, you know, they may have been relying on stars. i think that's a powerful engine. and the second thing is that because they have the freedom and -- to do what they wanted to do, there are a lot of unlikable characters in succession, who do you really root for? sometimes you think wait a second, do i even like any of these people? >> exactly. >> they're not worried about that. they're more concerned with it being compelling, and they're more concerned about showing people in an area that they've never seen before on television. i mean, look, as for the future, look, they're in a ground war in southeast asia with netflix and apple and everything else, those places are spending a ton more money to develop their shows, and they have a ton more money to promote their shows. so hbo is kind of like straddling two era right now, it's still being able to draft off its enormous success of the past, but at the same time it's uncertainty, particularly with a new parent coming in discovery, it's very uncertain. >> it's also changed a good bit, hasn't it, with the movies that it's able to show as they're being released. i think dune was released on hbo max at the same time it was released in the movie theaters. that's a brave new world, and actually, a great version of dune, which is breaking news in and of itself that there's a great movie based on the dune series. >> well, you know, sometimes you know this from politics, joe, like sometimes like five years later we look back and we say, wow, that was really a pivotal time. things were crazy then. now particularly with hbo and technology, we're in the middle of it. we know this is a crazy time. there are no rules i mean, one of the things hbo is doing, they did it with white lotus, with mayor of east town, which is that they're not going to adopt the netflix model. you can't just go home and binge their shows. they want that anticipation. they want that build. they want you to look forward to viewing it that next sunday. so we're seeing that people are doing a lot of different things at the same time they do hbo max, they have the movies come out. it's one big laboratory out there, and i think that over the next probably two years, three years, we're going to see that what happens over the next two or three years is going to determine the next decade because this laboratory that's going on right now can't last forever. >> all right, the new book is "tinderbox: hbo's ruthless pursuit of new frontiers." it's great to see you. i totally agree with you about "succession" i can't tell which character is more putrid than the next, and i love it. that does it for us this morning. stephanie ruhle picks up the coverage after a quick final break. [coins clinking in jar] ♪ you can get it if you really want it, by jimmy cliff ♪ ♪ [suitcase closing] [gusts of wind] [gusts of wind] [ding] johnny: '76 steelers. ray: '78 team was better. ray: we argue like it's our job, but medicare advantage? [gusts of wind] that we agree on. johnny: 98% of the folks who use it give it... johnny/ray: ...high ratings. ray: cause it's got record low premiums...johnny: they check in with me at home, gave you a ride to the doctor. ray: then covid showed up. johnny: but medicare advantage showed up too ray: with that telehealth thing... johnny: food delivery... ray: i bet you like that. it's times like these that show who you can count on. johnny: if you're waiting for me to say i count on you... announcer: medicare advantage. twenty six million seniors count on it. vo: just getting by, it's an ongoing struggle. that's why president biden and democrats in congress have a plan to lower costs for america's working families. lower costs of healthcare premiums and the price of prescription drugs. pay less for electric bills by moving to clean energy. and do it all by making the ultra-wealthy pay their fair share of taxes. it'd be a win for the everyday american family. right when they could really use one. congress, let's get this done. bye mom. my helpers abound, i'll need you today. our sleigh is now ready, let's get on our way. a mountain of toys to fulfill many wishes. must be carried across all roads and all bridges. and when everyone is smiling and having their fun i can turn my sleigh north because my job here is done. it's not magic that makes more holiday deliveries to homes in the us than anyone else, it's the hardworking people of the united states postal service. my nunormal? fewer asthma attacks with nucala. a once-monthly add-on injection for severe eosinophilic asthma. nucala reduces eosinophils, a key cause of severe asthma. nucala is not for sudden breathing problems. allergic reactions can occur. get help right away for swelling of face, mouth, tongue or trouble breathing. infections that can cause shingles have occurred. don't stop steroids unless told by your doctor. tell your doctor if you have a parasitic infection. may cause headache, injection site reactions, back pain, and fatigue. ask your doctor about nucala. find your nunormal with nucala. hi there, i'm stephanie ruhle live at msnbc headquarters here in new york city. it is wednesday, november 17th, and we've got all the facts you need to know this morning, so buckle up. let's get smarter. we've got two possible breakthroughs in the fight against the coronavirus where millions more people could be eligible for the booster in the coming days as pfizer asks for emergency approval of its antiviral drug. all of this exactly

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