not let its guard down because january 6th could happen again. republican congressman anthony gonzales said it looks like donald trump evaluated what went wrong on january 6th. why was it he wasn't able to steal the election? who stood in his way? he is going state by state from state senate races down to county commissioner races trying to get the republicans the rhinos in his words who stopped him from stealing the election. rhinos are what republicans call republicans in name only, not real republicans. now as i mentioned yesterday, at least seven republicans that attended the january 6th rally in d.c. were elected to public office this past election day on tuesday and there are more set to run reelection next year because at least 21 other current state lawmakers attended the stop the steal rally on january 6th that turned into that insurrection. all the while, ron desantis evolves into a mini trump copying mannerisms and style with election integrity. earlier this week, governor desantis announced he plans to create an election police force siting unspecified examples of election fraud, ron desantis on wednesday pledged to create a law enforcement agency to investigate election crimes as part of a new package of voting laws. so all of this is why it remains of vital importance we get to the root cause why january 6th occurred because until we do, supporters of that twice impeached president are going to continue to change our democracy in little ways and in big ways until it no longer resembles the democratic system that actually built this country. joining me now is haze brown, writer and editor for the "msnbc daily." thanks for joining us. i want to start with this investigation into january 6th. before congress shifted its attention to the president's agenda, bennie thompson revealed he's got subpoenas that coming. we got a quieter week ahead. what do you think we'll see out of this january 6th committee's investigation? >> i mean, the whole time that this committee has been meeting, we're trying to figure out what is going on behind closed doors because they don't have have more public hearings or public testimony yet. so it's been a lot of trying to glance behind the curtain and see what is being done. so i'm hoping now that, you know, a big chunk of the biden agenda passed through the house. the house will have time and energy to actually get some more things done. i mean, i'm looking forward to seeing exactly what names are on this list of people going to be subpoenaed. we have, i got to say, from the previous set of subpoenas that from trump's inner circle, they are trying to get testimony out of the people like steve bannon, so i think that it's going to be interesting to see how -- who is on this list and how they respond once they are actually subpoenaed. do they actually come forward and testify since some of these are lower level people? john eastman for example? will he come forward and testify to the committee or is he going to try to hold the line, will he try and raise funds for legal support like many of these people have been doing to give money from trump supporters to actually pay these mounting legal bills as they try to fight against the subpoenas that from congress. there is a lot to watch in the next couple days and weeks. >> we were talking yesterday at great length about payment family leave, it has a chance of surviving or expanding in the build back better bill. as you know, hayes, america is one of six or eight countries in the world that doesn't guarantee paid family leave and if we get the four weeks that's currently in the bill, we're at the bottom of the pile. you wrote something interesting about joe mansion. i get the feeling mansion's biggest fear isn't that americans will reject democrats if that happens again but the biggest fear is they will embrace democrats rendering mansion's shifting criticism obsolete. he's not a supporter of the proposal for paid family leave right now. >> yeah, and mansion on cnn the other day tried to explain it in a couple different ways. he says america is a center right country, we can't go too far left which doesn't make sense paid family leave is popular. a version was pulled in 2016 where it would be 12-week law, there is a fund where people can go and dip into for paid family leave and paid medical leave and a majority of conservatives and republicans polled were in favor of this. and that's way beyond what is currently in the house bill. the second reason is this can be done in a bipartisan way, which i thought was actually very interesting. it really strikes at the fact that mansion really cares a lot about the process more than the outcome a lot of times. his fear i get the read is that, you know, if this is just another part of the build back better act, just another democratic win, that it doesn't really count towards this kumbaya work together vision mansion is pushing and denies him the chance of actually negotiating a bill with republicans and possible stand alone family leave bill that could give republicans support that he could tout as a win. i guess the fact it getting done at all is less important at times than the fact it's not being done in the way he'd like it. that strikes me as troubling. >> hayes, what is your take on tuesday, the republican victory in virginia? you wrote that youngkin's victory in virginia doesn't do midterm democrats. explain that. >> so i mean, a lot of the analysis that we saw the snap instant analysis we saw with youngkin's win of virginia is this is a clear sign the political winds are shifted against democrats and they're doomed to lose the midterm elections and i just don't see it that way. i mean, yes, things are not great for democrats in terms for odd political climate but virginia is a weird place with elections. the fact they have off year elections and the governor can only be elected for one term, mcauliffe was trying to come back and run again. the fact there was this, you know, push and pull with trump where youngkin kind of held him at arm's length and didn't tout him and a culture war playing out. these are factors that contributed to youngkin's win in a way that's really hard to map out on a national scale, especially when you talk about congressional races that are so different than gubernatorial races. there is a rush to analysis that doesn't pan out or won't in the next year so i mean, there are a lot of factors that spell trouble for the democrats but i'm not sure that saying well, this virginia win is a huge warning, clash and sign to democrats. i don't quite read it that way. >> well, you have a lot of reads of a lot of things people enjoy, hayes. appreciate it. for those of you that don't follow hayes brown on twitter. he's one of the most prolific writers we have around here. thank you for your analysis. he's the editor of "msnbc daily." with me now is congressman cheri. it like illinois day on "velshi" today. there is some kind of weird illinois focus this morning. good to see you. you've been working late nights on capitol hill so appreciate you being with us this morning. i want your evaluation on the status of these bills. a lot of people are celebrating the passage of the infrastructure bill on friday night but have a little concern about what that next bill that you're going to be dealing with the week of november 14th, the bigger one looks like. >> well, first of all, i think it should be illinois day every day. that's how we do it here. but no, look, i think that it was somewhat of a painful process if you were either looking from the outside in or on some days and some hours of the past weeks specially in the inside looking out. it was painful at times but we got the job done. and i think this gets down to a matter of trust among our colleagues and the small group that was wanting to hold out a little longer issued a written very specific statement saying they would go along with build back better when we come back on the week of november 15th. we're all back in our home districts this coming week so we're doing to hear from a lot of people and i hope what we all hear is that hey, you got the infrastructure deal passed. we're going to start rebuilding america and now let's make sure that we're finishing this up. >> by the way, i got my states on either side of the lake michigan mixed-up. the other two were from the east part of lake michigan joshua benson and linda. you're on the western side of the state. there was some concern and i want to understand how this goes with respect to what happens next with the build back better build. assuming the costing comes in right, the cbo scores and the moderates who are concerned about it are satisfied that it goes through, what's the danger in the process that it has to go through over the next two weeks and get passed that the bill substantially changed enough you have to go through negotiation? >> we had the essence for the language, we had that for awhile. we made tweaks on it on friday and this past week. there is no doubt there will be changes coming up between now and november 15th. but we have made a decision as house democrats that we are going to send over a package to the senate and obviously, they will make some changes, they'll have to send it back to us where we'll -- that's what we're going to have to accept and make some vote for that when it's all said and done and send it to the president. there will be negotiations. we will not get everything we want. but that is the essence of what being a legislature is all about. in the end, we're going to have something monumental and transformative. i'm confident of that. >> i wanted to pick up on what hayes brown and i were talking about this week's elections and how you're analyzing and thinking about what happened particularly in virginia and the close race in new jersey. you come from a part of illinois in which there are lots of republicans and you understand their concerns and their motivations. how do you evaluate what happened on tuesday and what does it mean for the midterms in 2022? >> well, let me give you the context where i come from first of all. the congressional district that i serve is the vast majority of the towns here, 85% of the towns have 5,000 people or fewer and 60% have 1,000 people or fewer. i'm in a very mostly rural district that donald trump won in 2016 and even by a larger margin in 2020. i'm a democrat whose been able to survive now in my fifth term. so that's the context from which i look at this. in the case of virginia, i would say if i were to sum it up in a sentence, it's that we have to start talking to more people at the tractor supply rather than the trader joes. and what i mean by that, i looked at a map this morning. where do we have trader joes in the state of illinois? guess what, there is not one in chicago land. where do we have tractor supplies? all over the place. so my point there is the ol ed a -- addage of showup and use the ears and base what you do on serving people, getting results. i think that's the joe biden model. i think that's how he's performed as a u.s. senator from delaware and i think that's how he performs as the president of the united states. we've got to show up. we've got to listen and get results and that's a lot easier said than done but that's what we have to do i believe as the democratic party making gains in areas where we're literally tanking. >> you believed that for awhile and that's why you've been reelected in your district but tell me, are you concerned there are some in the democratic party that think absolutely the opposite of what you're saying, that in fact the democratic party has to triple down on where it thinks the strength is and ignore the areas where it doesn't have strength because you're one of those areas. you're the exception to the rule. >> well, i think part of it, too, we have to stop dividing and putting everybody and i'll use the term silo. i have a lot of silos, drain bins around me but we have to stop behaving that way and what i just told you about showing up, listening and getting results applies whether you live in san francisco or new york city or the city of chicago. it applies to that but it also applies to a town like hamlet, illinois where the population is 48 and you show up there. i've knocked on every single door in the little town of hamlet, illinois at mercer county illinois and done that because i would drive-through there and i'm like i just wonder what is on the people's minds here. you have a farmers, hog farmers, beef cattle farmers there. they're literally driving john deere tractors down the road when i went there not too long ago to chat with people. look, ali, it is hard work because you got to use the shoe leather and you've got to -- instead of knocking doors and saying hey, will you support me or the candidate i'm working for, knock on the doors and say what's important to you and your family? that plays well wherever you live, wherever you're talking about policy and politics. >> representative bustos. good to talk to you. cheri bustos from illinois which is different from michigan. it's a big midwestern show. >> it's a big midwestern area. >> that time change thing messes me up a bit. a federal judge has temporarily blocked the president's latest measures that were meant to help americans stay safe during the pandemic and the latest threat posed by facebook and it is definitely meta but first, there is a mystery to solve. tens of thousands of dollars given to state department during trump's presidency vanished without a trace but don't worry, i'm on the case, next. but don't, i'm on the case, next. ♪ ♪ there are beautiful ideas that remain in the dark. but with our new multi-cloud experience, you have the flexibility you need to unveil them to the world. ♪ hello? gordon ramsay? to unveil them to the world. this is a cold call! nfl teams are turning to cold with tide, will you? that will never work! if it works on nfl jerseys it'll work for you. seriously! just perfect! and it'll save up to $150 a year. and it's cold! so you will turn to cold? fine! i'll turn to cold! that guy needs to chill out! this was a cold call! moving is a handful. no kidding! fortunately, xfinity makes moving easy. easy? -easy? switch your xfinity services to your new address online in about a minute. that was easy. i know, right? and even save with special offers just for movers. really? yep! so while you handle that, you can keep your internet and all those shows you love, and save money while you're at it with special offers just for movers at xfinity.com/moving. well, as loyal "velshi" viewers know, i love hats so today i'm dawning my detective coat and hat and magnifying glass. this took place in the dark day of the anti democratic administration while unbeknownst to the american public, tens of millions of dollars given to the trump political appointees at the state department went missing. the state department keeps track of all gifts given to u.s. officials and a gifts of a certain value must be turned back to the government or purchased by the recipient to the government. the missing gifts include a 22 carat gold commemorative join. it's not this particular coin because the one we're looking for is missing. eight porcelain and copper vases purchased for the g 7 summit worth about $20,000. that summit meant to take place at camp david was cancelled because of the pandemic and quote several bags of monogrammed commemorative items end quote including pewter treys, marble trinket boxes purchased for the g 7 summit valued at $680 each are missing and a $5,800 bottle of 30-year-old japanese whisky given to mike pompeo during his visit. the inspector general is investigating the mystery and released a report detailing how following the departure of the trump appointees, the gift vault was in a state of disarray and that no security cameras were in place although security recorded by between august 3rd of 2020 and january 31st of 2021 there were 3,051 key card openings of the gift vault by 77 individuals most of whom no longer work for the government. also, that report reveals that while some of the missing gifts such as the $20,000 vases have been found for many of the missing items, the mystery remains. mystery remains. feel stuck with student loan debt? 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[ chuckles ] well, he may have friends, but he rides alone. that's jeremy, right there! we're literally riding together. he gets touchy when you talk about his lack of friends. can you help me out here? no matter why you ride, progressive has you covered with protection starting at $79 a year. well, we're new friends. to be fair. eh, still. a u.s. federal appeals court in louisiana has temporarily blocked the biden's administration new rule requiring all workers at u.s. companies with at least 100 employees to be vaccinated against covid-19 or be tested on a weekly basis starting january 4th. the ruling came days after the ad minute station announced the rule met with multiple legal challenges brought by business and religious groups in addition to at least 26 states including three that are led by democrats. the white house responded by saying the requirement is a workplace safety issue and not a vaccine mandate. joining me is the hhs secretary under the obama administration kathleen. thank you for joining us. >> nice to see you, ali. >> administration was careful in developing the rule to suggest like every other osha rule, it's an avoidable hazard in the workplace and employers have to take the necessary steps to do that including either getting their employees vaccinated or having them tested on a regular basis or ensure the workers don't come to the workplace. they anticipated there would be challenges to the law. what do you make of these challenges and the state of the ruling? >> well, think this is unsettled federal law so it's very clear states have the authority to move in the supreme court in the early 1900s in two different cases ruled that state and local governments can mandate vaccines. they were dealing with smalpox and that's very clear and the government has a clear authority as an employer to impose various mandates. what is a little unsettled with federal law is what the federal government can do with private businesses just because it hasn't ever been tested. there is no question osha, the occupational health and safety standard agency under the department of labor can mandate ruling dealing with safe workplaces. you can't make workers go into a room full of asbestos. you can't have people in a dangerous fire hazard. they have emergency powers dealing with grave health situations and that's what osha used as the justification for issuing this rule i think it's clear the biden administration feels it's imperative to protect american citizens from death. we still have 1 100 deaths a day from this virus and we're seeing breakthrough infections like the one colin powell had. he had a compromised immune system and because even though he was fully vaccinated, he was more susceptible to an infection from somebody who was carrying covid. workers in a workplace should not be subjected to that in a life threatening situation because a co-worker refuses to get vaccinated and that's what a president is attempting to do, lots of private companies have done this on their own. big companies are moving forward. we're seeing the vaccine rate tick up with vaccine issues coming into place as people go back to work and i think it's the president's duty to protect the health and safety of the american public. >> so in fact, i've spoken to a number of companies, they're fine with this. they generally are appreciating the cover given to them by administration to ask their workers to get vaccinated but you have two interesting hats in this one. one, you were a health and huma going on and the other as a governor. what surprises me is there are three states led by democrats including yours in kansas joining lawsuits. the governor in kansas is not unreasonable with safe at the precautions relating to covid. i'm surprised to see the democratic governors joining the lawsuits. >> frankly, it's the republican attorney general running for governor that joined the lawsuit. it's not filed by the governor or governor's office. the legislator super majority has done everything they possibly can to undermine her efforts to protect the health and safety of citizens refusing to let mask mandates stay in place and refusing to compile with a whole series of issues when you do contact tracing. we had a battle ground in kansas from day one. i think that there are 11 states including kansas where attorneys general have challenged this federal ruling. it will make its way through a court but in the meantime, i think business owners are wise to be cautious. if they don't have a mandate and have workers compile with mandates, they are putting all of their workers in jeopardy. i think the liability issues for putting someone in an unsafe workplace and exposing them to a deadly virus is very, very dangerous. that is what osha is saying, it's a dangerous workplace and we need to step up and have vaccines available. again, this legal issue now is a bit moot because the first deadline is not until the fifth of december. what is happening, though, in advance of the deadline is the vaccine rates are ticking up about a 1,300,000 people a day are getting vaccinated. that's good news to get a handle on the virus. if business owners compile with this, i think we'll be in a much safer situation in the united states and again, people are coming back to work who are survivors of heart attacks and may have gone through a round of chemotherapy and vaccinated themselves, have taken all their precautions, might have a booster shot and yet, they could be subjected to very dangerous conditions if an infected co-worker is at a lunchroom table or office huddle is unvaccinated and carrying the virus. >> thank you for your time this morning. we always appreciate it. kathleen say biel use is a former health and human secretary under the former governor of kansas. up next, the latest from houston, texas where music festival turned deadly. some concert goers describing the experience as hell on earth. l onh ♪ breeze driftin' on 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possible with rybelsus®. ♪ please don't take my sunshine away ♪ you may pay as little as $10 per prescription. ask your healthcare provider about rybelsus® today. houston city police fire and emergency officials are vowing to conduct a robust and fully independent investigation into how at least eight died and many injured during the astro world music festival this weekend. about 50,000 people packed into the venue to see rapper travis scott headline the concert friday night. at least 25 people were transported to the hospital after a crowd of tightly pacted people surged the stage and over 300 attends were at the scene. catie beck is at the scene. >> it's important to ascertain from last night what took place, what happened where missteps may have occurred. >> reporter: as scott took the stage to headline the festival friday, many of his fans were being crushed in a sea of pain. >> pushing, pushing, pushing. >> we just watched the bodies just go past us unconscious. >> reporter: with reports of people being trampled unable to move and breathe. some unconscious and falling to the ground. ems crossing dense crowds to reach them. eight people died in the incident all under 30. the youngest victim just 14 years old. >> we're actually working right now to identify the families so we can help assist them through this tough time. >> reporter: police are also looking into reports of a security guard who was stuck in the neck with a needle falling unconscious and having to be revived by rescue crews. >> could it have been somebody was given some drugs and passed out and trampled or did they pass out because they were trampled? >> reporter: police added more officers on the ground but this icu nurse says the show was too crowded and people were trapped in the crush. >> if you fell over, it would have been a death sentence. >> reporter: she says she fainted in the crowd but her boyfriend lifted her over a fence to medics. >> if he would not have gotten me out of there, i don't think i would have made it. >> thanks for that reporting from catie beck. the transformative build back better package is passed. if it is, it would earmark billions of dollars for improving affordable housing conditions. my colleague jonathan joins me now this could be a game changer for millions of americans. >> good morning, ali. it could and good to see you. the funding for affordable and adequate housing is a central center piece of the build back better plan and necessary as i saw firsthand earlier this week. i visited the bronx river houses in new york with congressman richy torrez and i was shocked at the conditions i saw. rat infestation, massive plumbing problems, inadequate accommodations for the disabled. listen to what richy torrez who represents the district had to say. >> the federal government is the worst slum lord in the united states. >> and ali, we'll show you up close conditions and tell you what congressman torrez wants to see happen now. also, ali, cedric richmond senior advisor to president biden joins me to talk about the social safety net spending plan over the goalpost and in his first television interview since the tuesday election, i'll be talking to dnc chair jaime harrison about the democrats' messaging to voters moving forward after some big losses this past week. as always, ali, we have a packed sunday show for you so i hope you'll be watching. >> i will. looking forwa jonathan. facebook's latest futuristic technology takes the name from a latin word meaning i and the model has it's eyes on you and it's much more than a meta threat. and it's much more than a tame threat ♪ ♪ there are beautiful ideas that remain in the dark. but with our new multi-cloud experience, you have the flexibility you need to unveil them to the world. ♪ bipolar depression. it made me feel like i was trapped in a fog. this is art inspired by real stories of people living with bipolar depression. i just couldn't find my way out of it. the lows of bipolar 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i actually use it to work out. i think that's why nobody believed it because nobody thinks i work out. if you haven't tried one of these, it's amazing the reality of the world it creates when you're in it. somebody likes me thinks this is a real world inside it. i think of possibility when i think about that but i also worry because this is owned by facebook. it started independent in 2012 and bought by facebook in 2014 and given social media and facebook created false fake cocoons in which people live and views get amplified, i worry when it's not just a website or app on your phone but a universe in which you can live. i brought this up in a conversation last week and she had things to say about it. i wanted to talk with her and cecilia. she's the co-author of "ugly truth inside facebook's battle for domination" and a disinformation fellow at the wilson center and the author of "how to lose the information war ." thank you both for being here. a guy like me always thinks about amazing technology and i'm led to believe if companies like facebook are in charge, i worry what that could mean. what do you make of it, nina? >> one thing that concerns me about facebook's use of this technology is the fact that it's all the going to be happening live in realtime. remember when facebook rolled out facebook live and we saw an on slot of suicide and terror attack broadcast live? how is facebook going to moderate this content and ensure the most harmful things we see online aren't affecting people in a much moe visceral way? i don't think facebook demonstrated the capacity to do that and i hope rather than rushing to rollout this technology as it's available. they're going to be thinking about mitigation measures early on. >> this question whether facebook has the capacity and whether they will think about mitigation measures, what the last few years demonstrated is maybe they don't have the capacity, maybe they do. there is nothing in it for them to mitigate the harms here. they continue to make money hand over fist and they continue to sort of say hey, you know what, congress, knock yourselves out and regulate us knowing congress won't new york themseves out and regulate them. >> yeah, i mean, i think that especially over the last several weeks, we've seen this real clear pattern where people internally employees have raised their hands trying to warn of problems and that the company is not doing enough to mitigate hate speech and misinformation and other toxic content on the platform. so the question is as it goes head long into this new up verse, this metaverse and this is hypothetical. it a little ways off. as they go into this new world of technology, who is going to regulate this? who is going to actually make sure the company will resolve core problems that we see even today with its basic apps facebook, instagram and what's app? facebook says they're not doing a good job self-regulating and so it's this crazy messaging where they're saying we're not doing a good job with self-regulation knowing during the last 15 years there have been no regulations. >> we turn ourselves into pretzels trying to figure that regulation out. cecilia brings up an interesting point about positive use cases. for all my life i thought about technology and thought what a great thing the internet means nobody will be able to lie and social media and virtual reality will mean we'll be able to -- kids next time there is a pandemic can learn as if they're in a classroom sitting at home and people can take courses they never took before but i worry about the fact we can plan an insurrection from your living room and play target practice with whatever you think you'll fight with on the grounds of the capitol. how do we not limit ourself for fear of how facebook may wreck the world? >> well, i totally hear you, ali. i worked supporting democratic activist around the world to use the internet to connect with each other and constituents in authoritarian countries where they wouldn't have been able to do that in any case. the internet can be a positive thing. for every cat picture, every baby picture that we, you know, click like on, there is also some really horrible stuff out there. i think we have been not just facebook and other social media companies, but, you know, congress and researchers have been a little bit reticent to imagine the harms that social media can cause until recently. and now we're finding ourselves in the thick of them. as technology develops, we need regulators, policymakers, and, you know, the folks that are working on this technology to actually think more proactively about the harms that it can cause. for every great positive development in the world of tech, there is somebody who is going to use that for harm, whether it is for hate speech, or for violence. and we need to game those out before those technologies roll out in the public. >> stand by. i want to continue this conversation after a quick break. fter a quick break. unlike ordinary memory supplements, neuriva plus fuels six key indicators of brain performance. more brain performance? yes, please! neuriva. think bigger. tonight, i'll be eating a club sandwich with fries and a side of mayonnaise. 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[music: "i swear"] jaycee tried gain flings for the first time the other day... you're weird, man. and forgot where she was. you can always spot a first time gain flings user. ♪ feel stuck with credit card debt? move to sofi and feel what it's like to get your money right. ♪ move your high-interest debt to a sofi personal loan. you could save with low rates and no fees. earn $10 just for viewing your rate and get your money right. ♪ in business, setbacks change everything. and get your money right. so get comcast business internet and add securityedge. it helps keep your network safe by scanning for threats every 10 minutes. and unlike some cybersecurity options, this helps protect every connected device. yours, your employees' and even your customers'. so you can stay ahead. get started with a great offer and ask how you can add comcast business securityedge. plus for a limited time, ask how to get a $500 prepaid card when you upgrade. call today. facebook's bad for you. don't take my word for it. take it from the results of a new company survey. one in eight users or 360 million people engage in, quote, compulsive use of social media that impacts their sleep, work, parenting or relationships. that's according to documents obtained by the wall street journal. back with me now, cecelia kung, nina jankowitz. your newspaper reported they wanted to find the right balance with technology, facebook will delete the face scan data of more than 1 billion users. is that real? is that important? is it facebook misdirection in a month that's been really bad for them? what do you make of it? >> it is a big deal. they're going to delete about 1 billion files with people's facial recognition their facial profiles. and that is a big deal that privacy advocates praise this option. they're not deleting the system, the technology underneath it, they're not getting rid of it, they could start it again later. but it is a move forward because facial recognition technology in these files have been used for bad things, for surveillance, for in ways to violate privacy. let's see what happens going forward. the company in terms of its track record really deserves scrutiny going forward and after they made this announcement, i think that, you know, they deserve the credit for actually deleting these files but tbd on what this will mean and if they start it. >> there was a headline, story mother jones, nina, that said that these ten publishers, meaning publishers that publish on facebook, produce the most climate lies on facebook. facebook and other social media companies make money when they send users down rabbit holes of climate denial. now, how do you think about this? we talk about why we failed to regulate these things, part of it is because there is a first amendment that says facebook allows people to lie. so how do we actually think about that? >> well, i think this is a little bit of misinformation that we need to dispel with here, right? we have the first amendment, but the first amendment does not apply to private platforms and facebook can very easily decide that climate denial, just like they decided that holocaust denial or other harmful hate speech and misinformation is not allowed on their platform. they could also moderate that content more successfully because they are a private platform. they have that ability. but they have decided instead to allow this kind of free speech fairy dust to rain over the platform, rather than taking steps that are helpful for our democracy, helpful for public safety, helpful for our planet. i think that's where we need to see regulation come in. to say that facebook, are you enforcing rules that you say that you're going to enforce? are you doing something that is a positive for society, when you are this huge company that is larger in many cases and more influential than some countries in our world. the onus is on the united states, the country that is the host of facebook, where facebook was born, to put some bumpers on this bowling alley and make sure that facebook is moving in the right direction when it comes to democracy, public safety, and the state of our world and climate. >> valid point, cecelia, that the first amendment does speak about government regulation of speech and religion, not of private company regulation of speech and religion. but the impetus still remains -- belongs to facebook. we have not seen any reason why what facebook would do it. does all the bad press, does the testimony, does the new information, the new information we heard in congressional testimony and the last month is probably not new to the two of you. but it is new to a lot of americans to hear it. >> yeah, you know, during the hearing when facebook's whistle-blower from facebook frances haugen testified in front of the senate, a lot of lawmakers called it a big temperature moment as though this was a major pivotal turn. i have been following these hearings for quite some time. mark zuckerberg's first hearing in 2018 and testified several times since then, and every moment felt big. the cambridge analytica scandal, russian interference in the election. it is hard to see big change coming from the government side and i think about the metaverse where he started off, you imagine the government trying to regulate certain parts of the metaverse, let alone the whole metaverse. what are they going to regulate? the access on to this idea? it is really hard to say. going back to 9 big tobacco analogy, it took 50 years before the first research emerged that showed cigarettes for harmful for one's health before regulation emerged. it is inevitable but it will take some time. every single communications platform in history has been regulated because they're utilities. but it will take some time. and congress needs to understand the technology fully before and the implications for speech. i do think the conversation around speech in some ways is a distraction. >> yeah. well, thanks to both of you. i'm a lot smarter for the conversation, cecelia kung for "the new york times," nina jankowicz at the wilson center, author of "how to use the information war." catch me next weekend. for now, "the sunday show with jonathan capehart." nday show wih jonathan capehart. president biden's win on infrastructure is a big fin' deal. how the democrats plan to rebound from election day 2021. dnc chair jamie harrison joins me with a preview. also, nightmare conditions inside the nation's largest public housing system. rich a torres joins me on an unforgettable tour. and this

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