well, good day. welcome to "meet the press daily." facebook in a phrase has gone viral. keeping up with all the stories, leaked documents and the consequences of it has been trying to drink from a fire hose for the average news consumer. another cascade from the whistleblower documents about at least what this, how staff at this social media company grew increasingly alarmed by its algorithm's impact on media companies. in a nutshell facebook and their decisions to amplify content ended up translating into proverse incentives for media companies that relied on facebook for traffic to do what? pump out, yes, more device of content. there are the revelations about facebook researchers knew that its users were experiencing a barrage of extreme conspiratorial and graphic content. in fact in one case they went ahead and created a test user with interest in the following three things. politics, parenting and christianity only to see facebook algorithm recommend she join groups related to. perils of run away social media ecosystem and as facebook whistleblower puts it puts profits over people. sounded the alarm about the device of content. >> an ad that gets more engagement is a cheaper ad. we have seen that over and over again in facebook's research is easier to provoke people to anger than empathy and compassion. so we are literally subsidizing hate on these platforms. it is cheaper to run an angry, divisive ad to run a compassionate, empthetic ad. >> all because it's what goes viral. >> she's specifically talking about an ad. don't forget, facebook created this system that did this. she could have talked about any content on the platform. remember with three billion users facebook is as much an economy as it is a platform. at the core of haugen's testimony was a warning about facebook's power and the ability to exert that power. >> when an oil spill happens it doesn't make it harder to regulate oil companies. right now facebook is closing the door on enabling us to act. we have a small window to regain people control over ai. we have to take advantage of this moment. >> and while plenty of people, lawmakers, regulators seem to agree that we're facing a major problem here currently no clear road map from our leaders on how to fix it. that's a major problem in and of itself. that falls on congress. as america's lawmaking body, however, congress is moving at a glacal pace and that's fast compared to how they should be moving. you want some proof? believe it or not some version of a basic bill of rights digital bill of rights on your privacy online has been floating around congress since the days of dial-up internet, aol and prodigy. for more i'm joined by "new york times" contributor. so, kara, it seems as if we're all running out of ways to sound the alarm about facebook. we're running out of ways, you know, it is like the evidence is just pouring out here that, you know, i'll be honest, i'm struggling to find the good that facebook ever provided though frances haugen said before algorithms were added there was a good facebook here. is facebook recoverable and what would that look like? >> a lot of stuff on the internet works just fine. the pandemic has shown that we need to use these digital tools and it can work in a positive way for society and all kinds of things that are happening that are good including on facebook. the problem is that this has gotten so big and so unregulated that they're not compelled to do anything they don't want and they have kind of a trust me kind of situation. as you said, as big as an economy. it is a country. with 3 billion people they're not monitoring it correctly and at the very top we have someone who is unfireable, unaccountable and really can do whatever he wants and spectacularly unsuited to the task. >> i guess that's the thing. a feel of powerlessness to all of this here. i look at what it has done to the industry that i'm in and the world of media and journalism. you know, facebook especially changed the incentive structure and particularly for smaller news outlets no choice but to essentially follow the facebook algorithm to maintain traffic, which created this death spiral of news consumption. >> yeah, i think one of the interesting things is that a lot of tech people are like you are mad at us because you ruined our business. we're like, you ruined everything. you decimated it. >> by the way, i don't mind our business being ruined, kara. ruin my business, but make it better. you ruined the business and made it worse. >> i think because they don't care whether it's cat pictures or journalism. i always thought that from the very beginning. the issue is, at this point, i feel two things, one is we kind of owe donald trump a debt of gratitude for being a bad behavior, because she's shown that they don't have control. he can run around and do whatever he wants and no enforcement. that was one of the documents is that there are these special white lists for people that they said was very rare but turned out not to be very rare at all. some people could misbehave and others couldn't. i think a lot of revelations in all the documents that we do owe donald trump a debt of gratitude for misbehaving so clear that they weren't enforcing their alleged rules. the second thing is that we could do something about it. there is a smaller and smaller window as these companies get richer and more powerful, but it can be done and it's been done before. i think one of the things at this point, i'm not blaming congress or facebook other nations have done things. other states have done things but our congress still has not. now, there's some great legislation coming and if they pass it, that would be fantastic. bipartisan support and they just have to get it through. you know, even though they can't agree on lunch, they could probably agree on this. >> what is, you know, it's interesting here. i have been obsessed with the digital bill of rights. i thought this was something that was goegto come after the '06 elections and going to come after the '08 elections and it just never happened. >> no. >> is the goal to, are we protecting the consumer? are we protecting the society? so, i guess what is the specific regulation? is it giving us control of when our data is used in an algorithm? what is it we should be regulating here, kara? >> when you are talking about bill of rights, there's lots of rights in there. so, one of the things that is important is to think about it as a multi-facetted approach. it's not one law, lots of different laws. transparency laws and hacking laws and laws about privacy. laws about data use. it's laws about funding the justice department and the ftc more. it's about mergers and antitrust legislation laws that need to be changed because the courts are sort of hand strung about what they can do given what the anti-trust laws say it's about section 230. what should we do about that? what is the smart thing to do here. and then it's also about fines. if you recall, the ftc fined facebook $5 billion for breaking previous descent decree which i call the parking ticket. they couldn't do anything else because they couldn't win in court. if you add a zero to that. facebook will start paying attention. liability is another issue. so, it's multi-facetted, chuck. not just one thing or the other. >> facebook is going to do and somebody reminded me rj reynolds but the other tobacco company, this name change, is that what they're trying to do here? are they just trying to improve their image by changing their name? >> no, i think it's probably the smart thing to do is move mark zuckerberg out of sight, i suppose. i think that's probably what they're doing. it's not done yet and all these rumors about it and supposedly this week. google did this, not under pressure and no other reason. the problem with facebook they have a lot of otherteresting li financial division and oculous and what's app and they tried to link them together and maybe now not so much. the big blue app, facebook, is causing them some problems. it's probably a smart thing to do to separate them and put mark zuckerberg in this role and then there's the ceo of facebook who could maybe make changes. the problem remains, though, that he's completely in control of everything because of the way they do stock. a lot of silicon valley companies are like this. no matter what he and his children and his children's children are in charge of this thing for eternity. >> kara swisher of the "new york times" and of the podcast, as always, thank you. with me now is someone, one of 100 someones who can do something about this. it's democratic senator ben ray lujan from new mexico. one of the senators who questioned frances haugen earlier this month. senator, i want to start with something on that basic issue. the good news is, many of you and your colleagues believe there is a problem here. the bad news is and to put this in football terms, it seems like everybody has a piece of legislation and in football, you have two quarterbacks, you have none and it feels like we have 100 bills, which means we don't have one. you get my point here. when are we going to see this funnel in to a road map for what realistic regulation of social media looks like. >> well, chuck, to use your analogy it does take a team to get this done. many legislative ideas coming together. most of these are bipartisan. so, the legislation that i've introduced which is protecting americans against dangerous algorithms which also has a house introduced piece of legislation runs parallel to bipartisan legislation that has been introduced by the republican whip of the senate mr. thune empowering with mr. shots, as well, which goes to section 230. mr. markey and bloomenthol has introduced legislation to protect our children. marsha blackburn has important legislation to address these issues. what i have seen with these hearings is how a ranking member republican and richard bloomenthol leading that effort and bringing us together and drawing attention here. and it's my goal to be able to have some hearings here in the coming weeks to look at these legislative ideas and as i've shared in hearings and also with the press, it's going to be incumbent upon congress to mark these bills up and to move these bills out of the united states senate to the house by the end of the calendar year. i'm hoping by early december. we have to make a commitment for floor time to pass these pieces of legislation because of the kids that we've now seen that are vulnerable. young girls that facebook clearly was preying upon. and also the national security threats that began to reveal themselves more and more every day. this is comprehensive and it's the social media companies like facebook that are profiting off of these dangerous algorithms that are pushing out this dangerous content and promoting it. that's just absolutely wrong. and facebook has demonstrated that they are not willing to do the right thing. it's not just that they're being dishonest, chuck. they're outright lying to the american people and i would even argue to congress. >> are you better off just, is the best first step here repealing section 230 and let the courts, let people start filing lawsuits against facebook. let the courts begin sorting out while congress figures out how to regulate? >> several thoughtful pieces of legislation that look at section 230 in a way that still protects free speech but goes directly after these dangerous algorithms and business practices of social media companies that are pushing out this dangerous content that as we have seen and many experts have append that even led to suicide with young people in america and that have continued to promote this dangerous content where there are bad things happening in different parts of the world, including here in the united states. so, i want to be thoughtful about how we're looking at section 230. my colleagues senator shots and senator thune a democrat and republican have offered something called the pack act which is the right approach to look at section 230 and build from there. >> look, this is going to get wonky. but it feels like, we just talked about the issue that sort of really is grinding my gears to borrow a seth mcfarland phrase. is this idea that facebook intentionally created algorithms to elevate divisive content because that seemed to move things around. how do you create a regulation, a law that regulates that algorithm? i mean, what does that look like? is it the government has to look at algorithms before facebook uses them? i understand the goal. i'm just trying to figure out if it's feasible. >> so, what we learned yesterday from one of the witnesses, as well, with snap was that they actually have people that are looking at content before it can be viewed by 25 or more people and that's after the algorithms have been promoting it. i think it will take a layer of not just regulatory equipment and looking at what the anti-trust rules will allow and if not moving legislation to be able to bring the ftc to bear down on facebook. that's also going to be part of the solution. so, many complex layers as you've described, chuck. but it's going to take every one of them in this new world that we live in. this is a part of our lives. we now see more people using the internet and as kara said, i agree with everything she laid out including her frustration to congress for not getting this right and protecting the american people. but we're going to have to use every tool that's out there including provisions within those companies, but also a strong ftc and regulatory structures outside of them. >> i'll admit, senator, i get the bipartisan buy in at the moment. why do i have a feeling when people start to see how this impacts some of the speech issues that the bipartisanship can fade away. >> well, chuck, i think that's where the attention and the hearings that i've been a part of in the united states senate they have been clearly looking at what these social media companies predominantly facebook had been doing to kids. yesterday we saw through questioning of mike lee of utah, as well, with a concern that many of us have which is why the age ratings of apple, for example, are different from the very age ratings that the companies are putting out. there shouldn't be inconsistency here. and if we're able to come together to protect kids across america and children and families, i think that's a good place to start and i hope that the advocacy will only grow from there. >> the same group of people decide what is a rated r movie on paramount plus as it does on hbo max. anyway, senator ben ray lujan, appreciate you coming on. such an important story and it can get wonky, but i appreciate you doing your best with us. >> thank you, sir. thank you for having me. up next dig into the dead heat in the virginia governor's race. what would a glen yungen victory look like? we'll show you what he needs to have happen to pull it off. the contentious school board meetings in loudoun county. if it does seem to help the republicans it will become a big national trend. you're watching "meet the press daily." so you only pay for what you need. 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will be trouble ♪ ♪ ♪ wait, we can stay and go. hpe greenlake is the platform that brings the cloud to us. ♪ should i stay or should i go now? ♪ ♪ ♪ >> extremism can come in many forms. can come in the rage of a mob driven to assault the capital. it can come in a smile and a fleece vest. >> welcome back. that was president biden campaigning on behalf of virginia's democratic gubernatorial nominee taking a shot at glenn who does wear a fleece. so with less than a week to go before election day, another poll is now showing the race essentially tied. last week we walked you through mcauliffe's path to victory. more like 2017 than 2013. let's look at what a youngkin would look like. mcdonnell won by double digits in 2009. this is a virginia that doesn't exist. in many ways you can't use 2009 as a model. starting with 2013 when terry mcauliffe won he won over many who thought were unelectable and made this a very close race. you can see there. 2017 northham thanks to the power of trump here. you see what is notable here is how the republican number was the same. mcauliffe benefited big time at that time by a third-party candidate who got 7%. so, what is youngkin's path? path number one keep the margins in northern virginia down. obviously, if he can keep terry mcauliffe in the 70s here in the key parts of northern virginia arlington and under 60 in fairfax county, he has a boxer's chance. you see what happens here. northhm got to 80 and i don't know how this gets back to 70, obviously, the percentage matters somewhat. but so does the raw number of votes, as well. can he reverse these trends 8 to 10 points in these counties? that's the type of thing he has to do to pull that off. now, let's take you to where he has to do well. this is some of the republican strongholds. fauquier quiet drifting towards the democrats but a small drift. still a republican county. but look at here, trump got less than 60%. youngkin will have to do much better than that there. look at the city of lynchburg, biden carried it. this is the stuff we used to see. he's got to sort of improve numbers here to make it look more like traditional republicans. then, of course, you go to the area that youngkin is trying to make this sort of what i would argue the topic of this race, which is schools. loudoun county this is a swing county that has drifted to become less swingy. biden got under 60% of the vote. if youngkin wins this governor race, i assume loudoun looks like 2013. you are seeing a lot of focus on the school issue there. chesterfield county, used to be considered reliably lean republican. as you can see, mcauliffe lost it by 8 points but drifted towards the democrats. this is a swing area that leans blue. this needs to look, i think, narrowly red if we see a glenn youngkin victory with that. there's your path. so, speaking of loudoun county, the school board and that issue. emerged as a major battleground for cultural flash points that we're seeing play out in the state of virginia and beyond. you could argue loudoun county is the center of this. raucous arguments over gender identity, vaccine mandates, the teaching of race in schools including this idea that somehow being taught in the public schools. latest fire storm over the district's handling over two alleged sexual assaults prompted a walk out of students from three high schools yesterday morning. our own katie beck has been at the contentious loudoun county school board meetings and was at the one last night. this is what youngkin is banking on. suburban outrage about schools bringing former republicans back into the republican column. what we're all trying to figure out is this a loud minority or is this truly a movement? >> well, it depends on who you talk to get that answer, chuck. certainly varying view points. but last night there were more than 130 outraged parents who spoke before this school board. many who were very upset because they say the sexual assault allegations were brushed under the rug because the school administration wanted to promote a transgender bathroom policy. this was an extremely heated night of discussion. many calling for resignations and for people to be fired. but there are other people in the school district who say these are not the majority. these are not the majority of parents. these are people who are disrupters coming from the outside to try to stir up political feelings and influence this election. so as you stated, you know, it depends on who you talk to fwind that answer but certainly some who feel these are legitimate outrageous issues and others who say this could be sort of manipulated. >> katie, i'm curious just in some of the footage that your crew caught. i saw a lot of youngkin paraphernalia on the speakers. how prevalent was that yesterday? were these parents coming in showing their political colors in many cases? >> certainly some of them were. but mcauliffe signs in the parking lot, as well. this has certainly taken a center stage, as you said. in virginia six days until this and neither side is wasting the opportunity to reach their base and try and hammer home some of othe lightning rod issues. campaign rallies over the weekend and obama mentioning it. so, we are seeing this talked about as sort of a central focus point to try to reach parents and reach people in suburbia and motivate that vote to try and potentially have an impact six days from now. >> well, katie, you just brought up an important point that i want to reemphasize here as we close. the mcauliffe campaign has taken this seriously enough and they have to respond. that tells you, i think the youngkin campaign feels good they forced this issue and forced mcauliffe to react rather than youngkin to react. katie beck on the ground for us, thank you for that reporting. we've got a lot more on the virginia's governor race in the latest episode of the chuck toddcast. one and only. we break it all down. up next, deal or no deal. the very latest from capitol hill. what it could mean for president biden's credibility on the world stage if he leaves washington and arrives in europe for the climate summit empty handed. you're watching "meet the press daily." does it get tangled up in knots? or fall victim to gravity? or maybe it winds up somewhere over the bermuda triangle. perhaps you'll come up with your own theory of where the stress goes. behind the wheel of a lincoln is a mighty fine place to start. bogeys on your six, limu. they need customized car insurance from liberty mutual so they only pay for what they need. woooooooooooooo... we are not getting you a helicopter. only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ ♪ feel stuck and need a loan? move to sofi and feel what it's like to get your money right. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ move to a sofi personal loan. earn $10 just for viewing your rate — and get your money right. ♪ [music: sung by craig robinson] and get your money right. ♪ i'm a ganiac, ganiac, 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expectations. telling reporters they're still working on negotiations around the same sticking points of healthcare, paid leave and climate and particularly pressing issues. the president prepares to attend the u.n. climate summit. threw out new ways to pay for the bill. the real sticking point. they're at the beginning of trying to figure out how to pay for this. some options include a new tax on billionaires, perhaps a minimum corporate tax rate and democrats aren't still in agreement on the basics like where the finish line is. >> an agreement is within arm's length and we are hopeful that we can come to a framework agreement by the end of today. >> we're not doing everything today. we're not going to have a complete -- the senate is going to take time. you think it's going to happen today in the senate. we're trying to agree the framework and the has been very clear. he'll go over to the house and basically explain to the house that i have a framework and still an awfully lot of work to be done and we'll have something happen. >> so, for some insight on where these negotiations stand joined now by tina smith of minnesota. senator smith, good to see you. >> thank you, great to be with you. >> so, i want to start with the issue of paying for this bill because it does seem as if that is the last minute scramble here. and i know that in many ways whether you guys like it or not, joe manchin is the pivot point here. i want to play something he said because it actually looks like it's a path to something here. but it was the idea of a patriot tax. here's senator manchin. >> on the taxes people are talking about tax this and tax that and will change that and first of all, i said this. everybody in this country has been blessed and prosperred should pay a patriotic tax. if you're to the point to where you're able to use all of the tax forms, if you can to your advantage and you end up with a zero tax liability but have had a very, very good life and you had a lot of opportunities, there should be a 15% patriotic tax. that's me speaking. i'm not speaking for anybody else. but we said and we all agreed on 15% corporate tax. >> so, senator smith, when he said that you thought, okay, i'm going to guess that there is at least philosophical agreement with that idea. i'm old enough to remember having to pay something, i don't think i ever had to pay it but i wouldn't make the amt which people used to hate. the alternative minimum tax. is that where we are going to have to head for wealthy people because changing the tax law is so difficult? >> i think what senator manchin saying, one thing i hear him saying is let's try to figure this out. let's come up with an agreement that all 50 of us plus the u.s. house can agree with. this is what it looks like as we try to find that solution. he's also saying something that i agree with. i mean, you have what is it 700 americans who are billionaires who pay no tax. and that is wrong. we can't afford for them to not pay any tax because when they don't pay anything, it's not fair to the rest of us. so, i interpret that as like a good sign and we're going to keep on plugging and we're going to figure it out. >> would you say the sticking point is what's in the bill or is the sticking point how to pay for it? >> i think that as best i can tell there is a lot of agreement on a lot of this and also details that still need to get worked out. everybody is describing how close this deal is. this agreement is in terms of how long your arms are. but i think the point is that there are still a handful of things we haven't agreed on. i am not trying to minimize the challenges we have. it's both. how we pay for this. the good news is it going to be paid for and be paid for by asking the wealthiest americans and the biggest corporations to pay their fair share. and i think also agreement on the things we want to do for americans in this bill. i mean, a great example of that is child care. the number one thing that i hear about is how to make child care affordable for minnesota families so that parents can go back to work and so that their children are in a good place. it doesn't work right now. and that's something that we're going to fix in this bill. so, got to look on the bright side. we're going to make it work. >> i had senator murkily on here last week and he admitted that, look, all 50 of you can't be in the room negotiating. >> right. >> inevitably the people that have the most resistance end up getting the lion share of attention. they're doing the negotiating. and, you know, i got to think, do you feel well informed? do you feel a part of this, is leadership filling you in enough or how frustrating is this? senator murkley, seemed a bit frustrated. >> you want to get to an agreement. you want to know the things you are working so hard on are going to be included not because it is about you but what your constituents want you to accomplish. i feel the things i am working hardest on child care and the work that i've been doing around making sure that we grapple with the climate crisis, i have had lots and lots of conversations and i think that the ideas that i've been bringing forward have been heard and we have to wait and see how it all turns out. you know how it goes, chuck. this is what it looks like at the end of the day. a lot of things that just need to come together. >> i want to pose this other question to you that i posed to a few democrats. when you look at sort of three big buckets of threats to this country. one is climate change. one is this i think inequality. we can lump inequality that we can lump in to basically upend society if we're not careful. and then there's our democracy. and, you know, they're all urgent. now, i might argue that democracy, without a democracy you can't solve the other two. how do you rally the urgency and where should the focus of the democratic messaing be for campaign 2022? >> well, i'm glad that you brought up the urgent need to protect our democracy by making sure that americans have free access to the ballot. and that we address this corrupt art money that is flooding our elections. this is exactly, i mean, this has got to be a big priority. i have to just, you know, bring up here that one of the reasons that we have so many challenges addressing these needs that americans want us to address. it's what the president ran on. it's what i ran on in 2020. they're going to be looking for answers in 2022. why is it? what is the problem? the problem right now is that we have 50 republicans that block everything that we want to do because in the senate you have to have 60 votes to do practically anything. and that is the barrier that i think we have to overcome if we want to actually make the kind of progress that we have to make in this country. >> senator tina smith, democrat from minnesota. appreciate you coming on and sharing your perspective with us. >> thanks, chuck. tune to msnbc reports at 3:00 p.m. eastern interviewing praila jayapal. vote for the infrastructure bill before sunday. you're watching "meet the press daily." eliquis. eliquis reduces stroke risk better than warfarin. and has less major bleeding than warfarin. eliquis has both. don't stop taking eliquis without talking to your doctor as this may increase your risk of stroke. eliquis can cause serious and in rare cases fatal bleeding. don't take eliquis if you have an artificial heart valve or abnormal bleeding. while taking, you may bruise more easily... or take longer for bleeding to stop. get help right away for unexpected bleeding, or unusual bruising. it may increase your bleeding risk if you take certain medicines. tell your doctor about all planned medical or dental procedures. the number one cardiologist-prescribed blood thinner. ask your doctor about eliquis. there is something i want to ask you. umm, it's a little soon... blood thinner. the new iphone 13 pro is here. what do you say, switch to t-mobile with me? yes! fall in love with iphone. now new and existing customers can get the powerful new iphone on us. if you smell gas, you're too close. leave the structure, call 911, keep people away, and call pg&e right after so we can both respond out and keep the public safe. one of the most important things you can do is to make sure you call 811 before you dig. calling 811 to get your lines marked: it's free, it's easy, we come out and mark your lines, we provide you the information so you will dig safely. welcome back. attorney general merrick garland is back on the hill today. an overnight hearing so as you might expect garland faced questions on a number of topics from democrats, including larry nassar investigation and home confinement and republicans, though, have focused almost exclusively on a department of justice memo aimed at combatting violence against school board members. garland faced only a few questions on whether the justice department plans to prosecute bannon. he signed an executive privilege in his refusal to cooperate with the january 6th committee and despite the fact that he hasn't worked for the white house for a couple years before claiming executive privilege. meanwhile, "washington post" is reporting that the committee is expected to subpoena. the conservative legal scholar who advised then president trump on how to overturn the election. up next county to county. we're heading to one of the last few remaining counties in america. you're watching "meet the press daily." ♪ have a good time 'cause it's all right ♪ ♪ now listen to the beat ♪ ♪ kinda pat your feet ♪ ♪ it's all right ♪ ♪ have a good time 'cause it's all right ♪ ♪ oh, it's all right ♪ introducing fidelity income planning. we look at how much you've saved, how much you'll need, and build a straightforward plan to generate income, even when you're not working. a plan that gives you the chance to grow your savings and create cash flow that lasts. along the way, we'll give you ways to be tax efficient. and you can start, stop or adjust your plan at any time without the unnecessary fees. talk to us today, so we can help you go from saving...to living. welcome back. time now to take our first deep dive into the county to county project. our focus today is on one of the endangered species in politics. the swing county. one in our seven the duval county, florida. in past three elections neither party has shown a real upper hand there. you can't even see a drifting trend. both parties hovering around 50% of the vote. what makes duval remarkable is how big it is, too, and how many votes there are for the taking. duval county had as many voters in the 2020 election as the entire state of delaware. our own shaquille bruster sat down with the county chairs in duval and how they target swing voters in such an evenly divided county. >> there are people and in great numbers who really vote on what they think is going to make a difference in their daily lives. but that really works in the republicans favor in this environment. because what's affecting them in their daily life, inflation. fear for national security. the gas prics when they go to fill up their tank at the pump. their ability to simply live. those are their fears and that plays well to republicans. >> i think what's really important and why a lot of swing voters and republicans here in jackson voted was the message and policies he wanted to deliver. i think him finalizing the deal with the infrastructure bill and finalizing the bill with the build back better will go a long way of solidifying support in the future. >> joins me now on the ground in jacksonville. what is interesting to me is that both chairs accepted the premise that there are swing voters. sometimes a swing county is made up of two equal parts and the only swing voter is people that swing between voting and nonvoting and they both seem to believe that voters vacillate in duval. >> that's exactly right, chuck. that's something that actually our producer, kai, kept asking. are swing voters real and to they exist or just this mythical idea that we think about. both saying, yeah, these are real people and we're targeting both of them. we're emphasizing the swing voters. now you have both of them saying that voters are swinging for different reasons. you heard the republican chair there mention the economic issues. that's where republicans locally feel like they have an advantage here or an opening. they talk about inflation you're seeing in the labor shortage. they believe they have an opening with those voters who in the words of the chair touched a hot stove by giving a chance to president biden and now are coming home in his words. meanwhile, you have democrats saying that, hey, it's agenda. that's what is making democrats more popular here. the focus on those economic issues you think about things like paid family leave, elderly care as one voter put it to me. they believe once we get through the mess of negotiations that elder care. they believe democrats have something to sell to these voters and they think that will be a key difference. the point you make is very true, both of them say swing voters exist and both are targeting swing voters in counties like these. >> so who are they? if they exist, i'll say this, my florida bias, i always view jacksonville as, its infrastructure wants to lean republican. this is a town that had a lot of insurance companies, financial services, the banking that was sort of -- would have a regional headquarters in jacksonville. that had a certain type of employee. they became a certain type of voter. but is duvall growing differently? is it that college-educated voter that's moving away from the republicans? who are these specific voters they're targeting? >> reporter: i'll put this in two parts, chuck. i talked to a professor at the university of jacksonville. one thing that he said in terms of why this has been a county that has been purple recently and is trending, he says, towards democrats, he says the population growth is definitely there. you have more people coming in, a bigger college-educated population here. but he also says it's also becoming more racially diverse. whites are no longer the racial majority here in this county, blacks make up almost a third of the county so far. but then you also have the trump factor. people were turned off by some of his rhetoric and became swing voters because of that. >> jacksonville republicans in my brain are mitt romney republicans and that will tell you everything you need to know as to why there may be some movement there. anyway, shaquille brewster on the ground in duvall, get that chant going, buddy. that will make you popular locally. shaq, good work, thank you. coming up, a member of the fda committee that just gave the green light for young children to get vaccinated about what parents need to know before kids roll up their sleeves. you're watching "meet the press daily." mm. [ clicks tongue ] i don't know. i think they look good, man. mm, smooth. uh, they are a little tight. like, too tight? might just need to break 'em in a little bit. you don't want 'em too loose. for those who were born to ride there's progressive. with 24/7 roadside assistance. -okay. think i'm gonna wear these home. -excellent choice. welcome back. children are officially one step closer to getting vaccinated against covid. the advisory committee responsible for making these recommendations to the fda did vote in favor of authorizing the pfizer vaccine for children age 5 to 11 yesterday. the near-unanimous vote came after hours of debate and visible frustration from some members. one fda committee member, dr. paul offutt, called yesterday's vote nervewracking. he joins me now. i have to ask, dr. offutt, what made it nervewracking? >> you're being asked to make a decision for millions of children based on studies of a few thousand children. so that's always nervewracking. do we have enough information to be able to say yes, the benefits of this vaccine clearly outweigh the risks based on data. but we're in the midst of the pandemic and in some ways building the plane while it's in the air. so it's always a little nervewracking. but yes, i feel we made the right decision. >> if you have a kid who is 10 or 11 but they're big, you know, physically large, or you have a kid who's 13 or 14 but they're physically small, are we worried we got the dose right, the dosage right here? >> right, so if you give a drug amocks amoxocillin, you need to have a certain amount relative to the blood. that's not the case with a vaccine, the size or weight of the child doesn't really make a difference. >> is it the developmental stage they're in, that's what makes the difference, you know, is there, besides age, i mean, is that what you're looking at here, besides the size, why the cutoff is 12? i guess that's the question, why 12, why not 10, why not 14? >> you have to have some way of moving forward just to keep yourself sane. you did the studies. that's why you do so-called phase 1 studies which are the dose ranging studies where you try different doses given sometimes at different intervals. this company looked at children between 5 and 11 years of age who got 10 micrograms or 20 micrograms or 30 micrograms and looked at the side effects and immunoresponse. they got excellent immune response at 10 micrograms, you didn't need more, and at 30 micrograms you have a more difficult safety profile. that's how they came to the 10 microgram dose. that's why you do phase 1 studies. >> do you have data about how kids who got covid, how their immunities work? >> we know the trial does was a 2,400-child trial. you knew there were 19 cases of covid in that trial, 16 of which were in the placebo group. so the vaccine was 91% effective. the immune response, what was reassuring, if you look at the immune response of the 5 to 6-year-old and compared it to the 10 to 11-year-old, it was really the same. to the question of does size matter, it was 5 through 11 range you had a similar immune response. you can feel confident moving forward that that will be protective. what's unusual is when you make a vaccine for children, i was fortunate enough to be part of team that created the rotovirus vaccine which is given to babies, we didn't have millions of adults who had gotten the vaccine before we did this, so you had a big platform for judging safety and efficacy as we move down to smaller stages. >> the next step, obviously, is infancy to 5. what does that trial look like, how long will that take, to decide what will be feasible there? >> good question. i mean, all i know about that trial is the dose is 3 micrograms. whereas the dose for the 5 to 11-year-old is 10 micrograms which is a third of the adult dose, this is 3 micrograms, which is a tenth of the adult dose. we'll see what those data look like. we'll carefully review those data and make sure we're comfortable before we move forward. >> are we months away from seeing that data, or weeks? is this before the end of the calendar year or after? >> so i picked the eagles to beat las vegas this past week, so i'm probably not the best person to ask. we'll see by the end of the year. >> it sounds like you're saying, eh, 51% chance, but i'm not going to put money on it. it's tough being an eagles fan, i get it. thank you, dr. offit, i appreciate it. msnbc coverage conditions right now with mr. geoff bennett. it is great to be with you. i'm geoff bennett. as we come on the air we're hearing for the first time directly from investigators in new mexico looking into that deadly shooting on the set of the alec baldwin movie "rust." we're still a ways off from any possible charges being filed but the news conference by the santa fe sheriff and district attorney

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