that's an improvement even for areas where it wreaks havoc. the main thing driving covid down is vaccines, which work very well here and we have a lot of data on that, a lot of people involved, and the other factor is the mandates which surge the use of vaccines. american courts are upholding these mandates. that was, at one point, an early point of controversy. of course, vaccine mandates have been upheld before for hundred years and common in schools and the u.s. military. a good piece of news given what works, vaccine usage for children under 11 from about 5 to 11 years old is expected to be approved and thus begin in a matter of weeks. we're about a year and a half into this pandemic and we all know and there have been other moments of progress that were later cancelled out. there were other moments like this, if you're watching me on television thinking, okay, in the news, they're saying things are getting better. does that mean they'll stay better? i will tell you, the answer is, we don't know. a nice improving picture reflects recent history. it's no guarantee of what happens next. why is that? partly, you never know what happens next, believe me, but partly, it's also related to the tougher news that we have to deal with this together as well. the disinformation, the partisan opposition that continues to slow and hobble proven scientific methods to crush covid and that's our top story, and we're going to do it rationally as we try to do it around here. let's start with some data. this map continues to tell the story in america today. the number one public health and thus economic and school story. it's our lives because this map is going to tell us where we're headed. the bright green in essence is higher vaccination rate areas and you'll see there are lower hospitalizations. people in those places are not being rushed to the hospital, which is good. purple is still where fewer people are getting vaccinated and there, again, this is data, this is not an opinion, this is not an extrapolation, this is what's happening. even if you don't look at every little part of this map, the basic gist is in those areas where people are less vaccinated, way more sick people are being rushed to the hospital with covid-related problems. we are still living through a major geographic and political divide. and that's part of what i want to talk to you about right now. because if you look at this together rationally, what we're dealing with is not the debate we had about masks, not the debate we've had about how to do this in school policy. what we're dealing with is a debate about whether science works, whether science works is not a policy debate. and i emphasize that with you tonight before we bring in our experts because people who really want this to end or the debates we're having sometimes smash all this stuff together. the truth is there are plenty of valid policy debates and trade-offs. i've emphasized that in our coverage because it's important. for example, how schools reopen, what you do with areas where vaccination has cleared out a lot of the risk and how much you require the people who choose not to be vaccinated from things. those are policy debates. and we can have them, we should have them as adult rational debates in democracy. what's not a debate and the only thing to keep in mind scientifically is the vaccines do work. they work. they make it so you won't die of covid. i'm speaking as clearly and simply as possible. when i show you the map that people who don't get vaccinated are more likely to die, that's the situation we're in right now. that's the part that's different than policy because people are being lied to. you look at the map and you can say, well, if you live in one of those places, you're more likely to get sick and die and a lot of people are making decisions based on lies. take governor ron desantis in florida who appointed someone as a state medical leader who claims there's not enough knowledge yet about how vaccines work. >> i mean, you hear these stories people telling you what's been happening in their lives, nurses, pregnant women who are being forced to sort of put something in their bodies that we don't know all there is to know about yet, no matter what people on tv tell you. >> i guess this is the art where someone on tv tells you something, but what you heard right there is vagueness masquerading as advice and if people believe that, remember, if someone is living in florida and they believe what their surgeon general tells them, they might think thaer following scientific advice. that's why this propaganda is so dangerous and broken and i don't think we should attack and impugn everyone who's just misinformed. they know enough about vaccines, one of the safely used medical breakthroughs of this decade and the most watched host on fox news, a lot of people also think is informing them goes much further falsely claiming that infections do not vary after vaccinations. i'll fact check before you even hear this misinformation. the vaccinated are significantly less contagious and the truth is your chances of even catching covid after vaccination are one in 5,000 or less. what you're about to see is false. >> the vaccinated spread covid just like the unvaccinated. there's no difference actually, look at the science. >> as you saw in the science, it says the opposite. vaccinations work. they save lives and there is a huge difference in the infection rate. science is only one part of the story. there's also human beings. take a family where both parents died about two weeks ago. two weeks apart, i should say, from covid. they left behind five children who are orphaned. neither of those parents tragically were vaccinated and their surviving relatives are speaking out. >> his last words were, dad, i'm scared to death. if that don't wake people up, i don't know what will. >> last words were a rebuttal to him not getting the vaccine. it was regret. i mean, you could hear the regret in his voice. >> he said, mom, i love you and i wish i would have got the shot. >> mom, i love you and i wish i would have got the shot. take that in. we can get so numb to this we forget about all the real people involved. we can get so politicized you start attacking and blaming people who, those people who are now dead, they have our sympathy, were misinformed. as they learn more and learn through experience, which is a tough and bad way to learn about life-threatening disease or illness, as they learn, they change their minds. which people have a right to do. for them, it was too late and they're speaking out and their family, the relatives speaking out to say if that doesn't wake you up, what will? how do you even counter that? the counter is very tragic. the same relatives i just showed you are also sharing that some people are now telling them those deaths, their dead family members are itself, quote, fake news. i don't use this word very often in my role as a journalist but that's disgusting. it's sick. this misinformation is wrong. it's also damaging. it puts propaganda and partisan crusades above life itself. this cycle of propaganda tries to disappear the dead, including the dead that sadly, they were listening to this propaganda until recently and cause of death continues the cycle of misinformation we're living through and misinformed decision. and then we all face a greater risk and people who listen to this stuff face a greater risk of death. as i showed you, things are getting better nationally. covid is dropping. that is still the statistical trend line. but the trend line doesn't have to be this slow. the ups and downs don't have to last this long. we can do better if we learn the truth. i'm joined now by dr. zeke emanuel who knows these well. he was an obama white house policy adviser and at the university of pennsylvania and katy an msnbc analyst. doctor, i'm doing my level best here which may not be good enough. we're all trying to go through this long-term problem with facts and empathy. i'm curious what you think. should we all have empathy for these people who were misinformed, who were, i believe, often tricked into poor decisions for themselves? what do you see here on the horizon of a story that is absolutely taking too long but requires our vigilance? >> yeah, it is tragic that someone has to learn the truth and have misinformation dispelled on their death bed. that is the worst. because you can't do anything, and revive them and they leave five orphans. it is also true that as we've learned, mandates work and get people who are sort of on the fence, hesitant to actually get vaccinated and that makes a big difference for the country and that makes a big difference to actually getting the vaccine rate up. but we have a long way to go, a really long way to go. if we're going to get to 85% of the population vaccinated at the current rate, it's going to take us into july 2022. if we want to get those masks off, really get back to normal, we got to get to 85% faster and the best i can see, the only way to do that is to get mandates, to get the prevalence, the apt of covid circulating down and i think it's correct, we're not just going to get rid of this. it's not going to disappear like zika. it is going to persist but don't have to have the level of deaths, over a thousand cases a day. a thousand tragedies a day. we seem to have become a little too numb to that. >> this misinformation is literally dangerous. >> yeah, the kind of thing that tucker carlson is saying with the platform he has and the number of people he reaches every night could literally kill people, if people decide to use that as another excuse in their range of weaponry for the reasons they are not getting vaccinated. oxford university did a big study at the beginning of october, if you're vaccinated, you're 30% to 65% less likely to transmit covid to somebody else than if you have not been vaccinated. the range because different vaccines work at different degrees but everyone vaccinated according to that study is less likely to transmit covid. that's the fact. the reason you have courts across the country, judges across this country appointed by republicans and democrats throwing out lawsuits against vaccine mandates is because vaccines are a public health benefit. it's not just for you and me or dr. emanuel, it's for everybody else. that's why you get vaccinated because you don't transmit to the same degree and so you protect the vulnerable. we have to do a massive factual campaign to counter all the disinformation out there because the disinformation is going to kill people. >> that's what's so critical. there's got to be a difference ethically and medically between someone having a well informed conscientious objection which means they may also have to sacrifice other rights and privileges, but they may have that knowledgeably and that's got to be different than someone who said, x will kill you. that's a logical interpretation of a lie. so when you find out, oh, x won't kill you, and not only that, x might save your life. the logic might lead you to a different outcome. i'm sort of belaboring it but it's that simple. like what you just headlined in nashville, this coming weekend, they're holding a big conference, getting everybody together to have an anti-vaccine conference where activists get together. tennessee couple, the bollingers they say they're super spreaders of truth. does thinking else in your adult life, dealing with medical policy at the highest levels of the white house been up against this kind of organized propaganda? medically? >> well, it's interesting. in addition, i'm an oncologist and treat cancer patients and these bollingers have been propagating false treatments for cancer, arguing against chemotherapy that cure people of their cancer. they are all full of suspicion and conspiracy with no evidence and what i really worry about is it will bring a lot of people together, exploit them, charging huge amounts of money, almost a thousand dollars, give them lots of false information about cancer, about covid and then send them back out. that's clearly very dangerous. we do have a lot of people that aren't into this the way we are, haven't gone to the depths and are easily can believe that the safest vaccines we have produced in a long, long time, maybe ever, are somehow dangerous for you. every intervention will have some danger but if you compare the danger of getting covid to the danger of the vaccine, covid is much better on any measure you want to get. and if you're older, especially if you're older, your chance of being sick and dying with the vaccine are 11 times less than if you're unvaccinated. >> there's only two ways to get information. >> i don't know if we'll convince everyone by rational talk, laying out the science, et cetera. that's why i think we have to go over to mandates and getting people what we can there. >> i hear you. >> the other thing is i would say freedom to do what you want with yourself, we all agree to that. but what you do begins to threaten other people's health, other people's lives, other people's situation, that's not freedom. you're encroaching on me. >> no, let me jump in and make the point here, doctor. you talk about rational. we've had other experts talk about how people get information. two ways to get information, right. you can get it from knowledge, that's what you have as a doctor, that's why we have you on. you can get it from experience. that's why we played the tragic testimony of those now dead parents with five orphan children. i get that people, you know this from politics. it's not all a rational chart. we start with dr. emanuel. we'll take two dr. emanuels. there are people, i hate to belabor this point, people including your mother, being a doctor is better than being an agent, but we take the doctors because we do the news and you can take the experience, katty. i'm told we're running over on time but how the president was rebutting this liberty argument. >> the two things that concern me, one, are those who just try to make this a political issue. freedom. i have the freedom to kill you with my covid. come on. freedom. number one. number two, the second one is the gross misinformation that's out there. >> katty, the president there at the town hall in baltimore, i give you the final word on this topic tonight. >> look, understandably frustrated. we've heard it from president biden before and we are heading into winter. they are having a covid surge in the uk at the moment. the vaccination rate of 70%. it's above ours. it's just a word of warning to people, this is not over and if people do not get vaccinated, you could go back to the kind of mask-wearing and isolation and potentially crowded hospitals that we had before. i understand why the president is getting frustrated. >> yeah. katty kay, msnbc analyst. dr. zeke emanuel. thank you on this story. other stuff including politics, maga plot to undermine the next election getting exposed. a verdict in the criminal trial against a former giuliani associate who was in on that ukraine/biden plot. a chance to look at how consequences matter and later tonight, we end the week in style with funk legend george clinton. he's here with our friend ayman mohyeldin at the end of the hour so stay with us. ayman mohyeldin at the end of the hour so stay with us. when she got a text: she needed a bigger fridge asap if she was going to fulfill her orders. so she used her american express business platinum card® to earn more points on the big-ticket purchase. she got the new fridge, fulfilled the orders, and with her extra points, she got new equipment that allowed her to expand her business by rolling out a new product. get the card built for business. by american express. bogeys on your six, limu. they need customized car insurance from liberty 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"jerry mcguire." he's assuring that the money will eventually come in. that sort of is maybe where some in the democratic party are getting to because it has been a lot of negotiating and a lot of talking about the money and the trillions and tonight, top democrats are now trying to say the money will be shown. they're telling liberals the deal is coming on this spending plan. it could be as soon as next week, at least that's what people in the house are saying and the speaker making it clear. take a listen. >> we had a very positive meeting this morning. i'm very optimistic about where we go from here. >> do you feel like the deal is closer? >> i think it's very possible. >> president biden, meanwhile, is trying to sort of manage the expectations, right? a control the democratic party is here, yet the standoff has really drawn attention to the fact that there is a gap between the biden preference of spending and where manchin and others are. dancing closer to manchin and telling liberals that maybe they won't get everything on their collective wish list. he's a moderate but including a lot of this in his opening bid and saying that's only a this time kind of thing that he will remember the goals and keep working on them. >> i'm prepared to do the things that can get done now to change the lives of ordinary americans to give them a fighting chance and come back and try to get later. >> take it all together and you might have the vision going into the weekend that biden, the speaker, they're close, they're talking about compromising which would conceivably help you get to the win, and that means when they say as soon as next week, that's going to happen. but it doesn't end there. you need the 50 votes which means any single senator and especially those more likely to hold out like joe manchin, well, they have the vote on this which means they have the veto and manchin is saying, quote, next week is unlikely and then you have senator sinema who, like the oracle, doesn't say much. top democrat, meanwhile, in the house at a closed door meeting with her and relayed she's ready to deal and does get that for democrats, the biden plan and some form is a must-pass. are we farther along? has the story changed? i'm not going to try to put a conclusion on it. i'm just telling you, that's what we're hearing. some democrats say they're close to a deal soon, others saying, well, not next week and many liberals who want the trillions for things that will help in this unequal pandemic recession. many liberals telling biden, show us the money. we'll fit in our shortest break, just 60 seconds but when we come back, an update with the feds making a move in the matt gaetz sex crime probe and we have the perfect guest. it's friday and maya wylie back on the beat in one minute. d may on the beat in one minute. [suitcase closing] [gusts of wind] [ding] at heinz, every ketchup starts with our same tomatoes. but not every tomato ends in the same kind of heinz ketchup. because a bit of magic unfolds when there's a ketchup for everyone. as a dj, i know all about customization. that's why i love liberty mutual. because a bit of magic unfolds they customize my car insurance, so i only pay for what i need. how about a throwback? ♪ liberty, liberty, liberty, liberty ♪ only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty, liberty, liberty, liberty ♪ nicorette knows, quitting smoking is freaking hard. you get advice like: try hypnosis... or... quit cold turkey. kidding me?! instead, start small. with nicorette. which can lead to something big. start stopping with nicorette two signs of problems for congressman matt gaetz. he's been under investigation with sex crimes with a minor probe, denies all allegations but the justice department did make some news here hiring two brand-new prosecutors who specialize in child exploitation and public corruption to work on this very case. the case near the end or in the middle or does it all mean? we have, what we think, is a great expert to get into the news. maya wiley ran for mayor of new york. thank you. >> good to see you, ari. >> good to have you. this is a very interesting piece of news. we've been monitoring this case, i've always said if it ends with no charges, we'll report that. that will be good news for mr. gaetz. if it doesn't, we'll cover that. what's your interpretation of the news they've added these prosecutors? >> no question that adding these prosecutors means the case is growing. what we've heard is the prosecutors they're adding are seasoned prosecutors on public corruption and sex crimes so that also suggests the direction in which the case is expanding. and that's really one that matt gaetz has to worry about because that's related to the things that he apparently is being investigated for that he himself has publicly said he's being investigated for, right? back in the spring, sort of talked about people alleging there were photographs with him and young women. so i don't think there's any question he has something to be concerned about. we should be very clear though, we don't know the direction of the investigation. mr. greenburg's attorney, however, mr. greenburg, mr. gaetz's friend said he was going to start cooperating, his attorney said, matt gaetz will not be happy. >> that goes to what we don't know and i appreciate your precision there, we don't know where the case is headed which means we don't know who it might target. a legal term, if they have one or more targets, but if your view is that you don't add prosecutors like this just to deal with the leftovers of mr. greenburg's case because he's already pled. you would add prosecutors because you might be charging others, who, we don't know. >> correct. the case is growing. so they're growing the team. it's that simple. you don't know through the finals in the nba without your best players and that's what's happening here. and that suggests that this case is growing, and given the nature of the case, remember, this is a sex trafficking allegation and it includes public officials. so that's why i'm not surprised to see expertise in public integrity, public corruption as well as sex crimes. >> yeah. maya, always good to get your precise analysis. thank and wishing you a good weekend. what's coming up. from the big lie to the upcoming elections. the maga effort is bearing fruit because they have specific plots. we are talking about how that's being exposed with an expert who understands authoritarianism. also, a former giuliani ally found guilty, convicted on campaign finance crimes. what does that mean? 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so you only pay for what you need. sorry? limu, you're an animal! only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ if you smell gas, you're too close. leave the structure, call 911, keep people away, and call pg&e right after so we can both respond out and keep the public safe. donald trump and rudy giuliani are busted for their ukraine against joe biden but would these folks face other consequences? there's related news on that right now. rudy giuliani east former business associate convicted today, it took a jury all of one day to find him guilty on six counts of campaign finance violations. it's not the exact ukraine plot but plenty related issues including illegally funneling foreign cash to help republicans in the midterms as well as trying to enrich himself and advance business interest, technically decades in prison, potentially, and he spoke outside court with his lawyer after this verdict. >> at this time, i want to get home to my wife and kids. >> are you going to file an appeal? >> a motion. it's not the end. the story still yet to come. >> parnas closely tried to rudy giuliani and donald trump. he worked with giuliani, as mentioned, to try to dirty up the bidens with these plots in ukraine during the 2020 election. now according to our court system, he is also guilty of illegally engaging in other elections in america. giuliani still under criminal investigation by the feds. this week, he's busy doing other things. he sent out a video where he says he's impersonaing abraham lincoln. all this, as he says, related to the virginia's governor race. >> virginia. against the man who dishonored our past by selling my bedroom. hundreds and hundreds of times. >> now that you've seen that, you cannot unsee it, but do keep it brief. we have a lot coming up in the program. we're looking at authoritarianism with an expert and it's basically how we have an eye on the way republicans are trying to install people to potentially steal the next election but also, what can be done about it. stay with us. ut also, what can e done about it. stay with us vicks sinex. instantly clear everyday congestion. and try vicks sinex children's saline. safe and gentle relief for children's noses. introducing fidelity income planning. we look at how much you've saved, how much you'll need, and build a straightforward plan to generate income, even when you're not working. a plan that gives you the chance to grow your savings and create cash flow that lasts. along the way, we'll give you ways to be tax efficient. and you can start, stop or adjust your plan at any time without the unnecessary fees. talk to us today, so we can help you go from saving...to living. i felt awful because of my psoriasis. i was covered from head to toe with it. it really hurt. then i started cosentyx. that was four years ago. how are you? 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with dupixent, i can du more....beginners' yoga. namaste... ...surprise parties. aww, you guys. dupixent helps prevent asthma attacks... ...for 3!... ...so i can du more of the things i love. dupixent is not for sudden breathing problems. it's an add-on-treatment for specific types of moderate-to-severe asthma that can improve lung function for better breathing in as little as two weeks. and can reduce, or even eliminate, oral steroids. and here's something important. dupixent can cause serious allergic reactions, including anaphylaxis. get help right away if you have rash, shortness of breath, chest pain, tingling or numbness in your limbs. tell your doctor if you have a parasitic infection, and don't change or stop your asthma treatments, including steroids, without talking to your doctor. are you ready to du more with less asthma? just ask your asthma specialist about dupixent. we're tracking new signals on how some republicans are trying to undermine the next election. donald trump feverishly endorsing certain candidates for otherwise obscure posts but they oversee the elections in three key swing states that he lost last time. arizona, georgia, michigan. these are candidates who previously supported the big lie. one of them actually was steps away from the capitol during the insurrection riot. he claims he never went inside but you can see he's that one. there circled in red, i should say, in the larger photo. on stage last month pushing election lies and so-called election integrity. >> jody running against one of the worst secretary of states in america. rathensberger trying to turn the tables on me because i'm fighting for election integrity. >> nobody understands the disaster of the lack of election integrity like the people of georgia and now it's our hour to take it back. >> the third spoke at a big lie rally last week. >> our legislator had no choice but to do a forensic audit. people mocking the audit are really ignorant. >> she's also attending a qanon conference in las vegas. this is a person trying to oversee the facts of an election. if trump gets his way and many republicans in the current party, these are the individuals who then would supervise voting in these battleground states. they would have power during the voting and afterward in counting it. meanwhile, just yesterday, we're tracking this for you because it matters. one of the trump lawyers who tried to overturn election last time is now the acting secretary of state in texas. authoritarian governments abroad, it's easy to forget some of these used to be democracies. that brings us to an important conversation. our next guest is an expert on the shift to authoritarianism. an influential "new york times" piece about the riot in the days after and why it could happen again. >> we have booked here on the show a man named timothy snyder. wrote something at the beginning of the trump administration proven to be a real anchor for these times. >> one of the world's foremost experts on authoritarianism. >> quote, history can familiarize and it can warn, end quote. that's a pressing quote from the book on tyranny. >> professor tim snyder is our special guest. i should mention the graphic edition of the book "on tyranny" is out now and we have some snyder trivia here. it's friday. it can't be all fascism. i heard you speak five languages and can read about ten. >> yeah, that's correct. and in current circumstances, as you suggested, it's pretty helpful. >> there you go. shoutout to that. that's wild. as for your expertise, when you see this effort, to put this much pressure on installing partisan officials who have embraced lies and tried to overturn elections in these official positions for next election, how concerned should we be? what, if any, foreign analogs do you see? >> well, as someone who follows contemporary russia, there is a russian phrase that comes to mind which is the administrative resource. what the administrative resource means in russian is that sure, you have an election, but the people who are running the election are going to determine how the election turns out. what the republicans are going for is precisely that thing, the administrative resource. historically speaking, what we know about a big lie is that it's, because of its very scale, it's not about truth or not truth, it's about living in a kind of alternative reality and what we're looking at is people who believe in or pretend to believe in this big lie actually carrying out our elections. and the problem with this or one of them is that since these people have already claimed that the other side cheated, that basically legitimizes their cheat. in other words, if you talk about the big lie now, you're basically promising to cheat the next time around. and that's very concerning. >> how worried are you that the united states could face a situation where coordinated efforts by these kinds of officials could actually swing an election? >> we don't need the could phase. i would say we should be thinking about this as what is happening and then ask ourselves what we can do to prevent it. i mean, it's very clear that some combination of people who talk about the big lie being an important administrative posts, along with non-legal or extralegal reviews of the election. perhaps along with the states claiming for themselves the right to allocate electoral votes against the wishes of their own people. some combination of that is clearly in the works, alongside voter suppression which has a long and dark history in our country. the scenario for 2024, for most influential people around donald trump, which unfortunately, means one of the political parties is precisely to be installed without winning the election. that's very consistent with everything mr. trump has ever said in 2016, 2020 and now. i don't think it's something that could happen. i think it's something under way. the question is, can we accept this reality in time to take the measures we need to take to prevent it? >> you have a very somber measured style, some people would be scream about but you're saying, wake up, it's happening and it's designed to end democracy as we know it in america. it's chilling coming from you because as emphasized, you're an expert on this. you're not saying this because of your personal feelings about donald trump. you're telling us how this stuff works. i guess the remaining question then is a skeptic might say well, was donald trump just late? almost seems like someone lumber. >> the unthinkable arrives, you're not allowed to panic. what we know historically is a failed coup is a trial run for successful coup. usually, when you fail in a coup, something happens to you. and mr. trump, nothing has happened to him. we're now looking at the situation where instead of just a person who makes the kind of disorganized attempt relying on personal charisma and signals to followers and people in the justice department, we now have the person, plus a whole bunch of institutional machinery and time to plan. so that's the scenario. the reason why would be more worried about 2024 than 2020 is you have the person, plus the lie, which is new, plus the institutions which are getting worse. >> you laid out clearly, i hope people are listening. we show in the introduction where you've been right before, if you are right again. it's a serious morning and professor snyder, i hope you'll come back. >> depends on us. thank you. >> the book "on tyranny" if you want to learn more. we have a special conversation. ayman mohyeldin drops by. we talk politics and accountability, that's next. we talk politics and accountability, that's next. man. 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[coins clinking in jar] ♪ you can get it if you really want it, by jimmy cliff ♪ ♪ [suitcase closing] [gusts of wind] [gusts of wind] [ding] now we turn to something i'm super excited about. a special edition of fall back. i'm joined by master of p funk himself, the innovator george clinton who famously led the band's parliament and still had hot chilly peppers to kendrick lamar and featured in hundreds of songs and over due on the walk of fame. it's also been announced that rapper wiz khalifa will play him in a new film. our friend and colleague amen on the ground covering some of the largest international stories of our time from the egyptian revolution to the migrant crisis across central america and one of the first western journalists to cover the trial of saddam hussein from inside iraq and hosts weekday afternoons and by the end of this segment, he may get funkier. >> okay. >> i can't get as funk as this. >> he was funking last night. >> i was a guest. but i learned as i went. >> well, you was getting it on. >> we'll get all the funk. i'll have home court advantage. what's on your fall back list? >> i like to keep my eyes on things happening internationally and kim jong-un, the dictator of north korea is mad about k pop. he thinks it will ruin north korea and it's somehow corrupting the minds of young north koreans. if you don't know, k pop is south korean music. it taking the world by storm. folks here in the u.s. are getting into it. the music is amazing but now it's a national security threat for the north korean dictator. >> i appreciate you shining a light on something going on over there and look at that coming in because we've seen artist in america with the government against them. >> too much funk in them. the k pop kids shaking it doing they thing. >> why do you think that threatens the establishment? >> i don't know, like the tiktok thing. kids have something to say. it's their version of the world and you can't treat them like you treat grownups. he would be scared that the kids are learning. >> thinking for themselves. >> thinking for themselves. >> amen. >> when you dancing and funking around, you thinking for yourself you know what i'm saying? i like the music. i like k pop. >> it's fast. it's got a real energy. >> wherever you dance and shake your booty, they don't like it. [ laughter ] >> don't care where it is or when it is. >> i love that. >> music is universal. >> george, what's on your fall back list? >> my fall back list will be whoever is in charge of bringing charges against those insurrectionists people at the january 6th thing. they got the fall back on this lenient charges. if you give them a light charge, it don't seem to be that serious. those people were trying to over throw the country. they were trying to over throw the whole entire country, and that's not something you take lightly. i mean, i know the privilege thing is in effect but i don't think it really wanted to be in that much of effect because if you don't get charged for it right, they will do it again. >> you said they will do it again. amen, we've talked about this in our coverage. there was a writer who said an attempted coup without punishment becomes a training exercise. >> that's a good one. >> to george's point, from a legal point of view some of the prosecution of the cases is and you know this better than i do, they trespass or violate but the reality is what was the collective doing? what were they trying to do collectively? what is the charge and decision to punish and try to subvert democracy? >> what do we want to do about this as a democracy. trespassing because you were lost or looking for the funk but you didn't want to hurt anybody is really different than trespassing to help other people violently over throw the government. >> yeah. i mean, a privilege would lead you to do that. if you think you got a right to do it, that it ain't no big thing and i mean, you just taking for granted you can do it. that's why a lot of them don't think they did anything wrong. >> yeah, i think you put it well. >> but that's what actually got them in trouble. they should actually get punished because i hate to keep saying it but if anybody else have done that, people of color, i hate to even think of what, you know, the possibilities would have happened there. >> i hear you on that 100%. on fall back we like to jump around. i heard you had something tobacco related only the fall back list. >> the other one is commercials. we don't need commercials for any cigarettes or any tobacco, any drugs as far as i'm concerned. you shouldn't have commercials for it but for cigarettes and aiming them at kids for tobacco to get them to do it because it's cool and hip. >> they are trying to make vaping the next cool thing. >> that's not fair. they should fall back on that. they should just stop. that's not right at all. >> yeah, no doubt about it. trying to go after young kids impressionable with advertisements and flavors is very dangerous and i think as a society if we don't collectively put an end to this now, we may find ourselves with trying with what happened with tobacco in the '60s, '70s, and'80s, it was part of the culture. >> joe the camel. i didn't smoke cigarettes but thought he was cool. >> shoutout to joe the camel. it's not about him but the people who drew him for kids. >> yes. >> if joe the camel walked in here and got off the mother ship, i would be happy to give him a chair but you say this is a product for adults, why do we sell it with a children's cartoon? >> that's the part i'm talking about. >> you have to be a certain age to buy stuff but targeting it for people -- >> it's actually hip for kids when they can do something you don't want them to do. no is the greatest turn on to kids. don't do that. don't do that? don't touch that? you mean -- >> yeah. >> little babies know that. they know they get your attention. >> facts. >> by doing that. >> i got a 2-year-old. i can confirm that's true. >> before we go, amen has been all around the world so like you, he's had all these experiences but different than you, that's in his mind and soul but day to day he looks so straight edge. if you want to funk-ify him, how would you? >> he's cool. >> he looks straight. straight edge. >> he whips his shirlt up. >> loosen the die? >> loosen the tie? >> why not? >> you was on last night. >> now he looks like he's making it through the show. >> yeah. >> we love that. i love both of you being here together. let me make sure you guys dab it out. >> pleasure. >> two legends co-existing. george clinton, thank you for coming back. >> pleasure. >> sometimes you got to loosen the tie. you can find a full interview i did with george clinton 80 years old and going strong one on one. you can check it out on my social media ari melber or go on youtube and search george clinton and melber on youtube. he is talking about the time he saw a ufo with his own eyes and tips for staying funky through the years. that's another 15 minutes we did. when we get legends, we do extra stuff. i'll see you monday. we'll go to "the reidout" where tiffany cross is in for my friend, joy. hey, tiffany. >> hey, ari, did you ask george clinton the age old question why must you be like that, why must you chase the cat? nothing but the dog in him. excellent interview. i love being lead into george clinton. >> nothing but the dog. i love it. >> exactly. i'll take it from here, ari, have a good weekend. good evening to everyone at home. i'm tiffany cross in for joy reid and we got a lot to get into in the next hour including stunning details about what happened in the hours before that deadly shooting on a movie set in new mexico. and in a little while, i'll be speaking to jamie raskin about the vote to hold steve bannon in contempt and the bizarre scene on the house floor yesterday when congresswoman marjorie taylor greene literally tried to pick a fight with both raskin and liz cheney. yeah, we'll

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