easy to understand why. >> above all, never lose faith in america. its faults are yours to fix not the curse. america is a family. there may be difference and disputes within the family but we must not allow the family to be brokeen into warring factions. from the diversity of our people, let us draw strength and not see weakness. believe in america with all your heart and soul, with all of your mind, remember that it remains the last best hope of earth. >> powell would go on to serve as secretary of state under george w. bush. his influence did not diminish after he left that administration as a republican. recall the seismic effect of his words in the leadup to the 2008 election. >> i think he is a transformational figure. he is a new generation coming into the -- onto the world stage, onto the american stage. for that reason, i will be voting for senator barack obama. >> it was a political earthquake. after decades spent providing counsel to some of the most powerful people on planet earth, colin powell did the same thing in retirement, routinely advising american officials, people like the current defense secretary, lloyd austin, who mourned his passing from covid-19 earlier today. >> the world lost one of the greatest leaders that we have ever witnessed. alma lost a great husband. and the family lost a tremendous father. and i lost a tremendous personal friend and mentor. he has been my mentor for a number of years. he always made time for me, and i could always go to him with tough issues. he always had great, great counsel. we will certainly miss him. i feel as if i have a hole in my heart just learning of this. >> flags at the white house are at half staff through friday to remember a man already being honored by some as the most -- some of the most important elected officials in our country, current and past n. a statement, president biden said powell, quote, led with his personal commitment to the democratic values that make our country strong. the clintons called him, quote, a courageous soldier, a skilled commander, a dedicated diplomat, and a good and decent man. and from president bush this, quote, he was such a favorite of presidents that he earned the presidential medal of freedom twice. he was highly respected at home and abroad. most important, colin was a family man and a friend helping us reflect on his life and his legacy is where we start this hour with former senior voirds to barack obama valerie jarrett and the former u.s. ambassador to the united nations as well as the national deputy ambassador under colin powell during the reagan administration. i want to play a longer segment of colin powell endorsing then senator obama back in 2008. >> i think back to my army career. we have got two individuals. either one of them could be a good president. but which is the president that we need now? which is the individual that serves the needs of the nation for the next period of time? and i come to the conclusion that because of his ability to inspire, because of the inclusive nature of his campaign, because he is reaching out all across america, because of who he is and his rhetorical abilities -- we have to take that into account as well as his substance -- he has both style and substance. he has met the standard of being a successful president, an exceptional president. i think he is a transformational figure. he is a new generation coming into the -- onto the world stage, onto the american stage. for that reason, i will be voting for senator barack obama. >> valerie jarrett, i was on the other side of that presidential lexicon test. and i remember that moment. i remember i was sitting -- i remember sitting so still and not breathing because colin powell mattered that much. what did that mean to now former president obama? >> well, i remember the exact same thing, nicole, where i was sitting at my kitchen table. i did not breathe either. when i finally took a breath, it was breath of relief not just that he said he was going to vote for president obama as a leader, the kinds of person that colin powell believed our country needed at that moment in time. it is consistent with his life. he was a barrier breaker. he was a role model. he was a straight shooter. i always say that he put country first, above politics, i think that's what he was doing at that moment. as you know, nicole, as well as anyone, it was seismic for someone with that stature inside the republican party to endorse a person of the other party at that moment in time. it did send shock waves around the country. i do think it made a difference. my heart goes out to alma and the fire powell family. she shared him with our country in a very gracious way. i'm sure there were many moments when she wishes as all spouses of leaders wish their husbands were not in front of the cameras, on the front line. but what an incredible couple, what an incredible legacy they both have. she was a big piece of it, too. >> you are right about what they give to the country. i think that he was part of an era where he was in that small handful of referees, where everything he said mattered to both parties. obviously, times have changed. one side is sort of hostage to disinformation. and that may not be the case now. but he was one of the first people to loudly call out the darkest forces in the republican party. and i want to show you something he said about what is widely viewed as one of john mccain's finer moments. but colin powell made clear that people on the republican side should have gone even further. here he is about questions about whether president obama was a muslim. >> i'm also troubled by not what senator mccain says, but what members of the party say. and it is permitted to be said. such things as, well, you know that mr. obama is a muslim. well, the correct answer is he's not a muslim. he's a christian. he has always been a christian. but the really right answer is, what if he is? is there something wrong with being muslim in this country? the answer is no. that's not america. is there something wrong with some 7-year-old american muslim kid believing he or she could be president? yet i have heard members of my own party saying he might be a muslim and he might be associated with terrorists. this is not what we should be doing in america. >> i know it pained him greatly to see the direction the republican party would head. but a high water mark in terms of sort of policing the rhetoric on one side of the aisle in this country from general powell there. >> absolutely. and i think our country hungers for those kinds of voices. i hope part of his legacy will be having inspired the next generation of leaders in both parties to appeal to our better angels, to realize that it is one country, and we should love our country. and just because we are critical sometimes of our country, that just means we love it all the more and we have a responsibility, which he always emphasized, nicole, to make it better. each in our own way, each with our own voices and our own platform. that's his legacy. he did that. and i hope that people will feel empowered to do the same. >> what do you think about when you see these sort of icons of an era way in the rearview mirror for our country? >> well, it's hard to see them in the here view mirror. what inspires me and makes me optimistic are the young people who i meet would are optimistic about the country as it should be, who are willing to roll up their sleeves and work hard on a range of issues that impact our country, that are willing to sacrifice in order to serve our country. it is an honor to serve. but it is a sacrifice for the individuals as well as for their families. and i do think we have a new generation coming along that wants to pick up that baton and run with it in a way that brings us closer together, as he tried to to. and i hope that those voices will be louder not in decibel, but in power, than the voices right now trying to pull us apart. >> to be clear, i meant this era is in our rearview mirror. colin powell was very much front and center in this american moment calling on our better angels. he would go on after endorsing president obama to endorse him a second, hillary clinton, and president biden. much has been made -- i think reuter's in their obituary writes that he was outmaneuvered by some of the other foreign policy voices in the bush administration. but he certainly used his voice and his stature to advocate for a very different direction in u.s. foreign policy. was he an influential voice for president obama? >> yes, he was. and he was available for counsel whenever president obama wanted. i can remember calling him several times and just picking his brain. he always made room. he considered that a service to our country. again, it wasn't about partisan politics for him. it was could his voice, could his advice, could his years of experience actually make progress, help make progress? and that's what i think our country kind of hungers for right now, is those voices of reason who say, yes, i'm willing to serve. this isn't about me being affiliated with one party or another. in fact he said he feels his party has drifted away from the core values that attracted him to it in the first place. you know he received an enormous amount of criticism and pushback for that. but that's what courage is about. it's about standing by your convictions, whether they are popular within your party or not. when you think they are actually what is best for our country. i think that's what our country needs right now, more voice like colin powell from both parties. >> absolutely. valerie jarrett i am grateful to get to talk to you today and to have your thoughts. it's an incredibly sad moment to lose him and to lose that time when one voice could sort of break through all the noise on all sides. thank you so much for being part of our coverage. i want to bring into our conversation ambassador john -- your thoughts listening to this conversation? i want to start out with something more current. obviously that interview of from general powell's endorsement of then senator obama. but i want to show you something he said on january 7th, the morning after the insurrection at the united states capitol. >> i have never seen anything or experienced anything like this in my many years of public service. yesterday was a national disgrace. but we'll come through it. once again, we see president trump doing things that are absolutely outrageous, criminal, claiming that he is going to be the president of the united states, when he knows he isn't. >> we are less without someone of general powell's stature in the conversation, saying what these to be said, when it needs to be said. >> you know -- i agree with what he said there, absolutely. and the point i think is important to emphasize and was important to emphasize then is, we will come through this. and i think that colin had an unshakeable faith in the united states of america, which he reiterated just about at every opportunity. and i think that's one of the reasons he was such an inspirational figure. for me, he was a wonderful person. he was a wonderful person to deal with. i reported him to three different times in my career, as his deputy, as ambassador to the united nations and as ambassador to iraq. he was always there for me. you won't believe this, but he was ambassador to iraq and to the united nations, i spoke to him by phone. he would call me practically every working day of the week, sometimes just to be sure that i was okay. but he was a hands-on leader. he was just terrific to work for. really, really magnificent. >> he's watching from up above. what would he want people to know about those calls, about those conversations, or about his concerns for the country? what would you want you to say today? >> well, again, the first point i think would be the faith in the united states that the ship can be righted, that some of these aberrations that we have watched are not permanent features of our political landscape. and, you know, you have talked quite a bit about his political involvement, whether he supported this particular candidate or not. i didn't -- never thought of colin as a particularly partisan person. he happened to be a republican, but he was not very proactive politically. he basically believed in professional government service. that was his dna. that was his background. he had been in the army all those decades. and then he went on to be chair hahn of the jcs and secretary of state. those are professional governmental jobs which shouldn't be tainted or unduly influenced by politics. and i think that's basically what he believed even though, you know, we always talk a lot about whether he supported this candidate or that. but i'm not sure that that was forefront in his mine at all. he wanted people he worked with and who reported to him and who are working now to do the right thing. be committed to your country. be committed to doing a good job. colin really pursued excellence in every way he could. >> it's an important point. i think maybe it reflects our different vantage points. i spent my career in politics. so i saw the seismic effect of anything he said about politics. but i take your point that it wasn't a driver, it didn't -- he wasn't drawn to anything about our country's partisan politics. with your point taken, tell me how he came to weigh in, either in 2008, or -- and to speak at presidential conventions. was it about concern for the direction and who led the country? >> yeah, i'm not entirely certain but i suspect to. he had charisma, public appeal. why were political leaders -- why were they attracted to colin powell? i think the reason was, in addition to liking him, i think they recognized how popular he was. clearly, mr. george w. bush brought him into the 2000 campaign because he was hoping the sum of colin's popularity would stick with him. and you know, the tactic may in fact -- you recall how he traveled all over the country can candidate george w. bush. and it was his immense popularity because of his personality, because of his charisma, and of course because he had won such an outstanding victory in the first gulf war. >> uh-huh. i want to -- i mean, i think you raise up something that will obviously be important to the family, that he was sort of this unwilling entransparent and participant in our very fractured politics. he said this on cnn earlier this year. i can no longer call myself a fellow republican. i am not a fellow of anything right now. i'm just a citizen. as a citizen -- i played that clip from january 7th, because he was a very concerned citizens, calling it a national disgrace. was he optimistic that the party that had been infected by disinformation and inspired to do that would purge itself of that? or did he remain concerned? >> i mean, i just think it was part of his nature, and actually part of the nature of a lot of strong and effective american leaders. and he -- he often said that optimism is a force multiplier. i think he sincerely believed that f. your leader is not optimistic and he walks in there with a grim face and says geez i don't know if we can do this, guys, what kind of a leader is that? colin didn't believe in approaching things that way. he came in, said we have been give a hard job to do. we are going to give it our best and damn it all we are going to do our best to get it done. more often than not he got the job done. >> you served at the united nations, you have a sense of how he was respected and revered around the world. talk about his impact as an ambassador for this country around the world. >> well, he was extraordinarily popular. he had a great relationship -- he came up to the u.n. every year while he was secretary, and he had meetings with all the different government leaders, presidents and foreign ministers. they all wanted to meet him. they all loved him dearly. he really was -- had a very, very friendly style. and he got along with the people. most of the foreign ministers who were on the security council at the time, whether it was jack straw, even sergey lavrov, the now russian foreign minister, then the representative there, had a good relationship with general colin powell. he had perhaps a bit of a falling out with the french foreign minister dominique because of a fight over the second resolution which proposed that we go into -- you know, that we seek the authorization for the use of force from the security council, which we ultimately did not get. >> right. how did that -- he's written about it. his pottery barn rule became household lexicon for kind of how that went wrong right out of the gates. how did his role in sort of selling the iraq war change how he would view the country after his years of service in the bush years? >> well, if you are referring to the way we presented the question of weapons of mass destruction and whether iraq had them, i was with him the night of the presentation. he went over it again for the umpteenth time. he went out to the cia every day trying to scrub the information down. rehearsed it again. george tenet was there. he said he wanted to be sure this was all right. we weeded out some more material. i mean, he was very cautious, and he made the presentation in good faith. but it later on turned out that even that information, a scrubbed down version of the briefing, turned out not to be true. and i think that was probably one of the deepest, if not the deepest disappointments of his diplomatic career. and as he himself said, you know, they are going to write about that in my obituary. he was really really upset about that and felt like he had been really let down by the intelligence community. >> you were by his side for some real historical moments and periods in this country's history. i am grateful to you for taking time to talk to us about your friend and former colleague. and i'm sorry for your loss. >> thank you very much. >> thank you. i want to bring into our conversation msnbc medical contributor dr. black stock. she's the founder and ceo of the advancing health equity. general colin powell died of complications from covid. just talk about how that could be. he was vaccinated. he had a lot of complicating health conditions. just give us some information, some facts, some context. >> sure. nicole, thank you so much for having me. i think the tragic take home message from colin powell's death is that vaccines, while they are incredibly effective, our most vulnerable community members are still at high risk. so colin powell had multiple my loma, a blood cancer that affects immune cells. he had a weakened immune system. combine that with the fact he was of advanced age. it made him incredibly high risk. he developed covid-19 and died as a result. what it shows is that the viral transmission levels in the community are still high. if people have not been vaccinated, if people are not masking, physical distancing, our community moments who are immunocompromised and elderly are still at very high risk. >> i want to read some of the "new york times" reporting on what you are sort of shedding light on. people with multiple my loma have compromised immune systems and thus are at greater risk of developing severe covid. vaccines are also likely to be less effective in these patients n. a study published in july, researchers found that just 45% of those with active multiple my loma developed an adequate response after receiving either the pfizer or moderna vaccines. so just help us understand that. does that mean that less than half of the people with multiple my loma who are vaccinated become immune from covid from the pfizer and moderna vaccines? >> right, nicole. as a result of the process, the disease process, they do not respond to vaccines the same way as someone with a healthy immune system. so that's one of the reasons why boosters were approved in immunocompromised people first, because of data like this showing that their immune systems don't respond as robustly as someone with a healthy immune system. and so that's why everyone needs to do their part. you know, colin powell did his part. he got fully vaccinated. but there probably were others around him that were not fully vaccinated. and that put him at risk. >> oh, dr. black stock, i wish it were a better occasion, but it is wonderful to get to talk to you about all this. thank you so much for being part of our coverage. when we come back, president biden saying he hopes the january 6th committee goes after the witnesses who attempt to defy its subpoenas a. vote against steve bannon set for tomorrow. the latest on that impending deadline is next for us. plus, united in the belief that the election was stolen. united again in what the "new york times" describes as a breath taking act of physical brutality on january th. now reporting on how seven never before connected individuals came together over 90 seconds to carry out acts of violence against capitol police officers. later in the program a moment of truth this week for the united states senate when it comes to preserving our democracy. majority leader schumer calling for one last showdown for the freedom to vote act. all those stories and more when "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. k break. don't go anywhere. ♪ there are beautiful ideas that remain in the dark. but with our new multi-cloud experience, you have the flexibility you need to unveil them to the world. ♪ ♪darling, i, i can't get enough of your love babe♪ ♪girl, i don't know, i don't know,♪ ♪i don't know why i can't get enough of your love babe♪ ♪oh no, babe girl, if i could only make you see♪ ♪and make you understand♪ get a dozen double crunch shrimp for $1 with any steak entrée. only at applebee's. now that's eatin' good in the neighborhood. this is wealth. with any steak entrée. only at♪ ♪plebee's. this is worth. that takes wealth. but this is worth. and that - that's actually worth more than you think. don't open that. wealth is important, and we can help you build it. but it's what you do with it, that makes life worth living. principal. for all it's worth. for years, i struggled with anxiety and depression. but when i was ready for help, finding the right care was nearly impossible. luckily, he had us. as mental health professionals, we could help him navigate the system. not everyone has that. that's why i started cerebral. online mental healthcare, without the high cost and wait times. with our affordable care model, you can get meds prescribed and delivered. and talk with a licensed therapist on your own time. with cerebral, everyone gets a care team. get your first month for just $30 at getcerebral.com. -- defy congressional from the january 6th committee. >> i hope they go after them. >> president biden commenting on president trump's aides and allies defying subpoenas from the january 6 select committee. a vote by the committee tomorrow to hold steve bannon in concept of congress could set in motion prosecutions. in response to the president a d.o.j. spokesperson said, quote, the department of justice will make its own independent discussions in all prosecutions based solely on the facts and the law. period, full stop. president biden's comments are in support of a key member of the january 6th committee, republican adam kinzinger. watch. >> i think the president has every right to signal, i think he has every right to make it clear where the administration stands. god knows the prior administration every two hours was trying to signal to the justice department. you know, that had to do with other pretty horrific things. i think the president has made it clear that we need answers to this. i think the vast majority of americans agree. so this is this -- this potential criminal contempt referral or will be criminal contempt referral for steve bannon the first shot over the bow. it's very real but says to anybody else coming in front of the committee don't think you can walk away and we are going to forget about you. we are not snochlt joining us, a "washington post" congressional correspondent and author of the early 202 newsletter. and clint watts formerly on the fbi counter-terrorism decision and now an msnbc analyst. jackie, where does this stand on the eve of the committee vote on the contempt citation? >> the house is very likely -- the select committee is likely to hold steve bannon in criminal contempt tomorrow. they are holding a vote at 7:30. all the lawmakers we have spoken to have indicated her ready to move as expeditiously and aggressively as possible to getting people to comply with their subpoena. the matter will be voted on by the house. it is likely to be passed since republicans hold the slim majority. then it would be referred to washington, d.c. criminal concept could wind up with steve bannon having to pay a fine, $100,000, or even end up with him serving a year behind bars. this is a momentous sweep. usually congress attempts to hold people under civil contempt. that's what we saw under the trump administration. but it is a slow process. that's why you are seeing this committee move quickly with criminal contempt. >> i want to show you, clinton watts, how adam schiff is framing the stakes for the department of justice. no less than a question about whether or not the rule of law matters. listen. this is him. >> witnesses who fail to show up now will need to contemplate they may very well be prosecuted. >> will they? >> well, we will find out. >> who? how? >> if witnesses fail to show up, then the committee can make criminal referrals to the department of justice. we can hold them in criminal contempt and seek prosecution by the justice department. and it will be the decision of the justice department. now, i have to hope and pray that we will not have another four years where people can flawed the rule of law and get away with night adam schiff making clear this is about more than a congressional committee, this is about answering a question, whether or not the rule of law can snap back after four years under donald trump and bill barr. >> that's right, nicole. and they absolutely, i think, need to pursue prosecution. because if they don't it will it we'll would give precedence for anyone, regardless of any committee, to just not respond, you know, when brought up with any sort of subpoena or a call to congress in general. i imagine all the committee hearings across the board, any time someone doesn't want to show up -- we have been talking about social media for example. they don't want to show up, or they don't want to return records. then now they have a precedent that they could do that. i think it's interesting as well, though, and it seems to be the sense is that this is the showdown that bannon wants. he wants to put that challenge up there. and remember, i think for him and many of his group, their time is waning. so this is a way to continue to stir up trouble, continue to be in the news and continue this sort of standoff. remember, steve bannon's focus has always been death of the administration state. you heard him talk about that during the early years of the trump administration. he would be killing off the administrative state if he were not prosecuted in this. it is actually a challenge. it is at the core of what our country is about, can he alone sort of make this challenge? will there be any follow-up to it in the future. >> jackie, you have new report being the committee laying waste to bannon's phony claim of executive privilege. talk about that. >> yeah, nicole, we talked to a number of gop lawyers, actually, to get their take on these letters that we obtained between steve bannon's lawyer and the january 6th select committee who also say that bannon has a very weak legal argument. these are people like jonathan turley who said as much, this is the guy who defended president trump during the impeachment hearings in 2019 -- 2020 -- during one of the impeachment hearings. >> it is hard to keep it straight. >> and came to his defense repeatedly. but basically bennie thompson the chairman of the january 6 committee's legal arguments, he said that number one, the former president, president trump, hasn't even communicated or tried to exert scuffive privilege to the january 6th select committee. therefore, bannon is not protected by that. they are still waiting to hear from the former president. secondly, steve bannon does not enjoy the privileges that some of trump's seniored a virusors or people who actually served in the white house during this period of time, during january 6th. the privilege that they enjoy further, the committee is asking for communications between bannon and lawmakers and protest organizers, which are also not protected by executive privilege. those are just steve bannon's personal communications as a private citizen. he has the most tangential claim to being protected by executive privilege. so you are going the see this committee try to poke holes in his legal argument. i think it is going to be supported by legal excerpts across the board. >> it is not a good sign clint watts said donald trump doesn't really have a claim to executive privilege as an expresident. let me show you adam kinzinger talking about potentially subpoenaing donald trump down the road so as not to turn this into a circus just not. >> honestly, if we subpoena all of a sudden the former president we know that's going to become kind of a circus. that's not necessarily something we want to do up front. but if he has pieces of information we need, we certainly will. this isn't necessarily about getting answers for tomorrow and helping that the people who believe the insurrection was an antifa false flag thing are going to believe it. yes, i hope we can change minds tomorrow after we get the report basically, sometime in the future. but this is about the ten-year argument. what are our kids going to think when they read the history books? who is going to win that argument? i always believed since i was a kid in sunday school truth needs to win out. >> a tep-year path to get the truth out. >> that's right, nicole. most of the arguments that you hear from the president, former president trump, and his supporters, don't pass the civics test. these are people that clearly never really explored the articles that they say that they are fighting for. i think that's part of the challenge that you will see over time is how much enthusiasm can there really be for a former president who continues to recite these lies? i think it becomes boredom for many of his supporters. the main thing for us, thinking about our country and our democracy is the truth does have to win out. far too often i think over the last five years we thought hey we will speak the truth once, we will send an official out with official documents and truth will win. that's really not how it works if the information space anymore. you have to pursue it day in and day out and we can never stop advancing the truth. that's ultimately the bedrock of our democracy. >> thank you jackie. clint is sticking around. incredible new reporting on the attack at the capitol, peeling back some of what we think we though about the insurrectionists who were led there. one of the reporters on this must-read new piece from the weekend joins us next. d new piee weekend joins us next. s beeping) (engines revving, cars hitting one another.) (sfx: continued vehicle calamity.) just think, he'll be driving for real soon. every new chevy equinox comes standard with chevy safety assist, including automatic emergency braking. find new peace of mind. find new roads. chevrolet. i just became eligible for medicare and, can i say? it's so overwhelming. a, b, c, d - all the different plans and all those stacks of mail? i didn't know where to start. then i called humana, and they helped make everything simpler. i talked to a real live agent who was kind, patient, and she told me about humana's all-in-one medicare advantage prescription drug plans. they include coverage for hospital stays, doctor office visits and prescription drugs. most plans include dental and vision coverage. and humana has a huge network of doctors and hospitals. i can get telehealth coverage, a silver sneakers membership, and i stay covered in emergencies when i travel. i can get all that for as low as a $0 monthly plan premium. humana went above and beyond to get to know me, so i can find the medicare advantage plan that is right for me. so call or go online and get your free decision guide. humana, a more human way to healthcare. at t-mobile for business, unconventional thinking means we see things differently, so you can focus on what matters most. whether it's ensuring food arrives as fresh as when it departs... being first on the scene when every second counts... or teaching biology without a lab. we are the leader in 5g and a partner who delivers exceptional customer support and 5g included in every plan. so, you get it all, without trade-offs. unconventional thinking, it's better for business. finally yasso! a ridiculously creamy, crunchy, chocolatey dipped ice cream experience with 25% less calories because it's made with greek yogurt. so, thanks for everything ice cream, but we'll take it from here. yasso audaciously delicious there's a stunning new reporting in the "new york times" from the weekend that pulls the curtain back even further on the brutal violence from the january 6th insurrection focusing on seven men from very different walks of life who are now forever bound together in a series of alleged crimes they committed on january 6th at the insurrection including the violent assault of police officers. the "new york times" combed through reams of video footage to identify the seven. the video is graphic. we will show you a short portion. watch. [ bleep ]. >> because of the strong language, we could only show a short clip, but it does show the seven defendants there within feet of one another trying to storm the capitol and attacking police officers standing in their way. the video now stands as one of countiesless pieces of crucial evidence in what the times is describing as a quote reckoning as prosecutionors and congressional investigators try to understand how a political rally turned into an assault on the citadel of democracy. joining us now, matthew rosenberg. clint watts is still here. matthew, it is an incredible piece of reporting. the whole 90 seconds, i encourage everyone to go into the story and watch the whole them. it's embedded. it took us a long time to get all the f-bombs out, which is why we showed only a short snippet there. i want to put up for our viewers the seven. they include, one, the bearded truck driver from arkansas who weaponized old glory. two, a heavy machine operator from michigan who once modelled for the covers of romance novels. three, a fencing contractor from georgia. four, a geophysicist from colorado. five a former marine from pennsylvania. six, a deputy sheriff if tennessee. seven, a self made business man from kentucky, 52, described as a well intentioned person devoted to keeping his small country church afloat. he does not drink, smoke, curse or bother with social media. now they are all insurrectionists facing criminal charges. explain. >> you know, every single one of these in their own way bought into the idea the election was stolen. although some said after the fact, we are not sure, we don't know, they showed up on january 6th to support the president. and for reasons that each one seems to have, different reasons, ended up at the capitol. some of them -- [ indiscernible ] but they ended up for a brief moment at the capitol on the west steps assaulting police officers, brutally beating them. and now -- you know, and then went their own ways. none of these guys knew each other. i think one of the big takeaways from this story that i hope leaders take away, look, some of the most violent people out there that day were the most ordinary. they were not hard core militia members, not members of a white supremacy organization, they didn't know each other. very few -- none of them seemed to have planned much except for going on that day and they took part in some of the most brutal violence that happened outside of the u.s. capitol. >> for me, in some ways it is worse. these were people who until that day hand engaged in hand-to-hand medieval combat with law enforcement officials. what is the tipping point for each of them? >> you for example it's hard to say. they come from a fairly diverse set of backgrounds. there is the cross trainer from georgia. i went to his hometown. you know, i went to highways of friends of his. there, i got a lot of what one would expect in that situation, people telling me to get off their property, calling me to threaten me to beat me up. then the truck driver, his neighbors are all black, they called him the best neighbor they ever had, one was his closest friend. they said he was a talker but never talked politics. what brings them to the tipping point is hard to define this any group way. but one thing we know here, look, ordinary people were mobilized f. this were a militia issue, there would be a way to handle that. this isn't. there are tens of millions of people who share the views that propelled them to the capitol. these are seven that acted on that in a violent way. but the question is how do we manage it? they are ordinary citizens, people who live next do to us. how do we manage it so we can have a conversation and there isn't violence. >> clint watts, matthew is using the word mobilize, i might say radicalized. how do you have conversations with americans who have been radicalized? >> it is one of the strangest situations. many of the patterns we would see -- we would talk in the 2 00s around al qaeda or isis recruits. there was never one profile of a terrorist or extremist out there. when you looked at it, it was always confusing how people could get swept up into something they ultimately came the regret or didn't entirely understand. that's what we see here with january 6th. i think there is one part of the situation that we sometimes overlook. isolation. a key part of what we saw during the extremist years international were young men, older men that were isolated that wanted to be part of a cause, part of a calling. they were a lot of times wrapped up or swept up in the emotions and madness of a mob. i think we see that today. it is important to note, though, there was some organization, and there were some groups that showed up there. they were some of the most vicious when it cam to organizing that day and really leading thing. so i think this is where you get that dangerous combination of people that are swept up in a moment, maybe don't understand all of the forces that are going on behind the scenes. but when pointed in the right direction by a demagogue or an idea log, when pointed to the right place at the right time when you have more violent elements it can tip off this cascade of violence that we saw on january 6th. i bet many are out there and remorseful. the question is how do we reach out to them and bring them back so we can create peace in this country. >> an incredible piece of reporting. incredibly presented. to anyone who hasn't seen it i encourage them to go look at it. clint watts thank you for being part of our coverage. donald trump today was under oath for more than four hours. it is a lawsuit that alleges violence by his security team. the videotaped deposition several years in the making is our next story. ry br 25% of your mouth. listerine® cleans virtually 100%. helping to prevent gum disease and bad breath. never settle for 25%. always go for 100. bring out the bold™ ray loves vacations. but his diabetes never seemed to take one. everything felt like a 'no'. everything. but then ray went from no to know. with freestyle libre 2, now he knows his glucose levels when he needs to. and... when he wants to. so ray... can be ray. take the mystery out of your glucose levels, and lower your a1c. now you know. try it for free. visit freestylelibre.us at vanguard, you're more than just an investor, you're an owner with access to financial advice, tools and a personalized plan that helps you build a future for those you love. vanguard. become an owner. you all have seen the president for many years on the news, almost every night for five, six years now, so the president was exactly as you would expect him to be, and he answered questions the way that you would expect mr. trump to answer questions, and conducted himself in a manner that you would expect mr. trump to conduct himself. >> that doesn't tell us too much. that was the lawyer for the plaintiffs in the lawsuit against the twice-impeached ex-president who for the very first time since being elected president in 2016 was deposed today on camera over at trump tower after being ordered by a court to answer questions under oath in regards to the suit which was filed by several protesters who alleged they were roughed up by trump's security detail following a protest outside his manhattan building in 2015 where the demonstrators were protesting his immigration stances. his four and a half hours under otto today could be testimony that could be used in trial if the case goes to trial. joining us now, tom winter and former department assistant attorney general and former u.s. attorney, harry litman. will this case go to trial? >> that's going to be a big question going forward and i bet some of that depends on what actually happened at trump tower today in that nearly four and a half hours worth of testimony that you just referenced. when you look at this and look at this case, there is video of this alleged assault that occurred. there are images of this alleged assault that occurred. that was an important day in the trump candidacy. it may feel like two weeks ago or 20 years ago but it was just a little over seven years ago that trump pledged his allegiance to the gop and said he would not run as a third party candidate and that's when this protest and alleged assault took place. there are allegations that a protester was hit in the head, was punched by trump's former personal body guard and right-hand man, their protest signs were destroyed and another protester was nearly choked so significant allegations of assault in what will have to see going forward, nicole, i think, as we watch this case is whether or not there's any talks of a settlement and whether or not the attorneys for the people that have alleged these assaults are able to prove that trump knew that these body guards were under his direction and that according to law, and there's a theory in law and harry is probably much better equipped to talk about this, but a theory of law that essentially, if somebody commits an act, an intentional act that they were authorized to do on your behalf as an employer, that you may be personally liable. so, i think that's going to be another key turning point in this case. >> i wonder, harry, this is something i've asked you about and want to show you now. trump did advocate violence. let me show you from our friends at rachel maddow. >> if you see somebody getting ready to throw a tomato, knock the crap out of them, seriously, would? i promise you, i will pay for the legal fees. i promise. i love the old days. you know what they used to do to guys like that when they were in a place like this? they'd be carried out on a stretcher, folks. get out of here, out. oh, this is amazing. so much fun. i love it. i love it. we having a good time? usa, usa. >> usa, usa, usa. >> all right, get them out. try not to hurt them. if you do, i'll defend you in court. don't worry about it. >> harry, trump calling for violence against protesters, promising to pay the bills if anyone gets sued for carrying out violence against protesters, and trump romanticizing an era where violence against protesters got so severe you were carried out on a stretcher was the norm. >> sure sounds like the portrait of someone who's authorized his body guards to use violence. that's what the plaintiffs say, and very significantly, keith schiller, the actual goon who we have on videotape said that he was authorized to use violence. very significantly, nicole, the judge let those snippets be played today. so, the defense attorney told us he was able to question trump on these campaign rally statements. i think a lot of judges wouldn't have permitted it, would have said it's too far afield. this judge did, and going to what tom said, i do think it makes settlement more likely because we are now, everybody, going to see this deposition. it's designed to be played at trial if there's a trial. and the only way to keep it from now being made public is if he settles the case at a pretty penny, i would think, because the plaintiffs now know they have some sort of leverage over him. >> we will watch this space with your help. nbc's tom winter and harry litman, thank you so much for spending time with us on it. the next hour of "deadline white house" starts after a quick break. don't go anywhere. we're just getting started. quic. don't go anywhere. we're just getting started it's . nah, a stormy day. classical music plays. um uh, brass band, new orleans. ♪ ♪ she drives hands free... along the coast. make it palm springs. ♪ cadillac is going electric. if you want to be bold, you have to go off-script. experience the all-electric cadillac lyriq. (music) if you want to be bold, you have to go off-script. at aetna, we're putting all other medicare plans on notice. with coverage and services that may include a $0 monthly plan premium telehealth emergency coverage while you travel an over-the-counter allowance plus dental, vision and hearing. because the right medicare plan should make you feel... yeah, like that aetna medicare advantage plans medicare annual enrollment ends december 7th. call today to learn more. i felt awful because of my psoriasis. i was covered from head to toe with it. it really hurt. then i started cosentyx. that was four years ago. how are you? see me. cosentyx works fast to give you clear skin that can last. real people with psoriasis look and feel better with cosentyx. don't use if you're allergic to cosentyx. before starting get checked for tuberculosis. an increased risk of infections - some serious- and the lowered ability to fight them may occur. tell your doctor about an infection or symptoms, or if you've had a vaccine or plan to. tell your doctor if your crohn's disease symptoms develop or worsen. serious allergic reactions may occur. i look and feel better. ask your dermatologist if cosentyx could help you move past the pain of psoriasis. michael myers is the essence of evil. if cosentyx could help you move the boogeyman... needs to die. if you track michael's victims, it's a straight line to michael's childhood home. [ screaming ] tonight my family will kill him. [ gasps ] [ screaming ] what kind of congress would we be if we did not respond to all of these voter suppression bills that are mushrooming all over the country? a violent insurrection on this very capitol driven by the big lie. metastasizing to a kind of voter suppression cancer all across the body politic. i want to remind all of us that the only reason we're here in this chamber at all is because somebody voted for us. voting rights is not just some other issue alongside other issues. it gets to the heart of who we are in the first place, a democracy. the most powerful words ever uttered in a democracy are the people have spoken. and shame on us if we allow the people's voices to be silenced in this chamber. >> hi again, everyone, it's 5:00 in new york. the time has come and it's all on the democrats, unfortunately. they're all we have left. they have to make the ultimate choice, democracy on the filibuster. that's it. nothing else on the menu. majority leader chuck schumer moving today to set up a vote in the senate on the freedom to vote act, likely to take place wednesday. schumer has made clear the legislation has the full support of all 50 democrats, puts it in a better position than the previous voting rights bill, the for the people act, but it falls short of the 60 votes it needs to pass with the filibuster in place. sets up this week's possible last dance for voting rights legislation as our colleague puts it. senate democrats will have to go on the record with how much they're committed to preserving and protecting the integrity of our democracy, the right to vote. or whether they think it's more important to leave a senate procedural thing in place. the filibuster. as of right now, two democratic senators, joe manchin and kyrsten sinema, do not support eliminating the filibuster in any circumstance. which as we just said, is the freedom to vote act's only path for survival. voting rights advocates stress that president biden's engagement and messaging is key to getting the bill passed. so far, they're not impressed. "washington post" reports this. "voting rights advocates meet once every week or two with white house officials via video conference. in almost every session, an advocate speaks up to say that president biden must do more. that american democracy's under threat and the president is not meeting the challenge. at one such meeting earlier this year, a biden aide responded that democrats would simply have to, quote, outorganize the other side. that's according to multiple advocates familiar with the exchange, who spoke anonymously. the comment infuriated advocates, who believe they're watching former president trump actively and perhaps permanently undermine faith in u.s. elections." that is exactly what is happening. the ex-president is doing it out loud. he has said so. he's made it abundantly clear that the only litmus test for being a republican now is to embrace the big lie about fraud. former president already laying the foundation for the next election fight, guaranteeing if he runs again, he could be in a great position, a far more advantageous spot than he was in 2020. nbc news reports this. in next year's races for governor and secretary of state, for congress and all the way down to state legislative seats, republicans eager for trump's support have embraced these baseless claims about a stolen election. the issue is particularly animating campaigns for secretary of state. the office that in many states oversees elections. battlegrounds that narrowly backed biden over trump in 2020 and will be hotly contested again in the 2024 presidential election. democrats' moment of truth when it comes to saving our democracy from trump republicans is where we start this hour. jake sherman is here, founder of punchbowl news and an msnbc contributor. jason johnson and congressman joe neguse is here of colorado. house impeachment manager during trump's second impeachment trial. congressman, i'm not an expert on very many things anymore many american politics but i promise you this. donald trump can lose again, but you have no guarantee that the winner will become the next president if nothing happens at the federal level. do people understand that? >> certainly the house democratic caucus understands it, nicole, and it's good to be with you. i think you articulated it well. really, the question facing the senate is a binary question, whether they will save democracy or not. i am hopeful that after tomorrow or i suppose wednesday's vote, cloture vote on the compromise measure that you described and that senator manchin has put forward, perhaps those two democratic senators that you referenced will have the clarity that they have apparently or ostensibly been looking for and that we can finally get to the business of doing what has to be done, which is ultimately performing a constitutional carveout of the filibuster as clyburn has recommended so we can protect voting rights, which are as senator warnock so eloquently put it on the senate floor, sacrosanct. >> has joe biden done enough? >> look, i think that president biden has -- my sense has tried to give the senators who have been negotiating this compromised measure for the better part of the last several months the sufficient time and space to do that. i suspect that you will see the president perhaps engage in more robust outreach in the coming weeks following wednesday's vote. i think that that is likely to be the case. he has been unabashed about his position on this particular issue. i think he has issued a clarion call to his colleagues in congress to take this seriously and so i expect that he will do even more than he has done already. >> the president gave an extremely powerful speech in philadelphia, well received, and has done nothing else publicly. congressman, is there more happening that we don't see? is his involvement greater than that? >> certainly, the white house has had a number of conversations with members. i won't get into those private conversations. suffice to say, i think the president has made very clear his belief that republicans in various state legislatures across the country are really crossing red lines in terms of implementing very subversive pieces of legislation that undermine the fundamental right to vote and he has been very clear in his support for the legislative efforts that we have been pushing in the united states congress to attempt to push back and roll back those state efforts. so, again, i suspect that you'll see more from the president in the coming days and weeks ahead after the vote on wednesday. >> are you optimistic? >> i'm certainly not optimistic about the vote on wednesday. i think the cloture vote is likely to fail, i suppose we'll see what jake has to say, if he has any insights in terms of his conversations on capitol hill, but i don't think that there is any likelihood that the filibuster will be overcome with respect to the compromise measure. i am optimistic that at the end of the day, we will be able to reach an accommodation with respect to reform of the filibuster that enables us to get to the president's desk voting rights legislation. and that optimism is largely borne from, i think, the reality that public opinion has changed so dramatically over the course of the last nine months on this particular issue. largely because of the efforts that i described in states like texas and florida, georgia, and iowa where i think it is becoming all too clear to the vast majority of americans that you have many in the other political party who are working to try to undermine the right to vote of each and every american, regardless of one's political affiliation. and that's simply antithetical to what we believe fundamentally as americans. >> and jake, look, how bad are the voter suppression laws? well, they're so bad that major league baseball moved the all-star game out of georgia at the beginning of the conversation. in some ways, it's remarkable that major league baseball did more than just about anybody else to protest voter suppression laws but that's where we were. where are we now, jake? >> well, let me just respond to a couple things that the congressman said. i have a lot of respect for him but i think we get into this, we, as a political people who follow politics and cover politics, we get into these discussions about joe manchin and hope that he, again, not me, but hope -- i think democrats hope that he is somebody he is not. joe manchin is a supporter of the filibuster. he is for a 60-vote threshold for legislation. joe biden has not said one about eliminating the filibuster, nor -- and if he said something, joe manchin's not moving. people look for this deeper meaning in what joe manchin -- and we see this all the time in the mainstream media, i guess, of which i'm a part, but i'd like to think we're not guilty of this, but, like, joe manchin is a supporter of the filibuster. he has said a million times he's not changing the filibuster. he's not changing the 60-vote threshold. this legislation is going nowhere. i don't know -- like, i don't know if there's a better way to understand this, but joe manchin is supporting the filibuster, and i just think that people, you know -- i understand the importance or what democrats consider the importance of this legislation. i get all of that. but manchin just is not moved and we see this, by the way, not only on this, nicole, but on the reconciliation package. that's not the topic here but just to tie this together, this is an unfortunate habit that we've gotten into. joe manchin is for a $1.5 trillion bill, not for clean energy provisions, and he's not changing, and people might not like it or might decide to ignore it or might hope that he becomes a different politician than he is, but joe manchin is much closer to republicans on all of these issues, and he's not going to change, and we should take him at his word when he says what he's for and what he's against. >> so, jason, i appreciate the reality check from jake sherman, and i'm sure he's correct. he usually is. so, let's take his reporting to the bank. there will be no federal legislation to protect the right to vote in america. right now, i think there are 407 voter suppression, voter nullification laws racing through. 33 of them have become law. they're auditing the count in counties and states where trump won. they're laying the groundwork to overturn not just the next presidential election where trump's on the ballot, and it won't even matter if he wins or loses next time. jason, the whole frame around which we cover politics will not matter. it will not matter if joe biden wins georgia and arizona again, because you could have insurrections popping up all over. where are we heading? >> so, this is weird. i am not an optimist but i have always believed, and i have said this for a long time about joe manchin, as much as i disagree with a bunch of his positions, he has always left himself wiggle room if he chooses for a big john mccain moment where he'll make sure he goes down in the history books. to say that you don't want to weaken the filibuster, to say that you don't want to destroy the filibuster, is not the same thing as saying that you wouldn't be willing to make a change. i think there is a possibility -- i'm not saying likely, but there is a possibility that joe manchin could agree with president biden and say, i don't want to destroy the filibuster, but i do think we have to go back to a filibuster where you had to stand there and actually argue your point instead of it just being a slip of paper. if he were to make that concession, it is possible to get this legislation passed, so that's the first thing i want to say. if that does not occur, if there is no change, if there is no federal voting legislation then we're essentially a banana republic. it's all over after that. we don't even have to get to 2024. if the republicans take over the house and senate, they'll find a way to impeach joe biden and the only concern i've had about this all along whether it's manchin or sinema or anybody else, i don't understand -- this is a violation of all common sense political science. the number one job of a politician is to make sure you get re-elected and if democrats don't do this, they're all going to lose their jobs so i don't understand how they can have apprehension. we will be a one-party state if none of this gets done but i hold out the possibility that joe manchin has left himself wiggle room so he can look like the hero and save democracy and still continue to be an obstructionist down the road. >> go ahead, jake. >> yeah, no, manchin has said those things. he has said, i will not change the filibuster. stop asking me about that. and he's not supported a carveout for this. he's not supported that and he said he's for -- he has entertained conversations about the talking filibuster, but he has said, in order to end the talking filibuster, you need 60 votes. so, yes, it would make it more difficult to filibuster -- by the way, he's not said he's for this. he has said he is willing to consider it. >> yeah. >> and just let me just add one more thing here. what supporters of the filibuster have said is that there is no such thing as a carveout, right? they find it very difficult within the senate's rules and the senate's strictures and traditions to carve out and say, there's only one thing that you need 50 votes on. i actually was literally, nicole, just having this conversation with some other reporters in the hallway and by the senate chamber. if there was ever an opportunity to blow up the filibuster, it would be, like, today if the debt ceiling wasn't lifted. i could see, like, a cataclysmic event like that for the economy, you could see something like that happening. but i think before that, republicans would drop in and vote for it like mitch mcconnell did a couple weeks ago. so, like, i'm just -- manchin has basically said all the things that we're saying here, which is, i'm not for it, i'm not leaving the -- stop asking me about it. i'm done talking about it. that's what he said. i mean, there is very little wiggle room here and very little daylight that i see unless i'm missing something. >> jake, i guess the thing is mitch mcconnell did put the filibuster aside for judges, so i think maybe jason holds out that the future and fate of our democracy, the ability not just to have the right to vote but to have your vote not nullified by the frankenstein post-raffensperger secretary of state in georgia might be at urgent as a judge. >> i see that. all i'm saying is that at this moment, we have no available evidence that that's the case. like, maybe that does happen. maybe they rewrite the rules of the senate or change the filibuster. i'm completely leaving open the fact that that could happen at some point in time. but right now, based on the information that we know and the reporting that we have that we get every day up here, there is no openness to changing the filibuster among -- with joe manchin and kyrsten sinema, and by the way, there are -- in my estimation, other people who have privately suggested the same thing and are also wary about it that don't get as much attention but manchin, at the moment, is catching all the flak, so to speak, on that front. >> congressman, i want to bring you back in on this caught my attention from derrick johnson, president of the naacp. the administration's lack of urgency about safeguarding democracy, especially by shoring up voting rights is, quote, appalling. i have heard from many of my colleagues and members that the lack of priority around voting rights will undo the legacy of this presidency. not just its legacy. it seems like it could undo -- i mean, president biden's primary candidacy was resurrected for one reason. black voters, male, female, young and old, in south carolina bet on him big. that's it. you could write a book. you could sell a book. it could be long. but you only need one chapter. that is how joe biden became the president. that was the single event that turned around an ailing primary candidacy, and this is the assessment from the naacp. their efforts are, quote, appalling. do you agree with that? >> well, look, i would say, nicole, obviously, i share the concerns and i think the passions of many who would like to see the congress pass a voting rights bill and send it to the president's desk for his signature, and i think the president agrees with that principle and he's been very unabashed and very public in his pronouncements on that topic. that being said, as we've just talked at great length about, clearly, there are two democratic united states senators who have a differing world view on this particular issue, and so i think the president is doing everything that he can and using every tool in his toolbox and at his disposal to make the case to those senators to ultimately join the rest of the democratic caucus in the senate and the house and in getting this bill to his desk. i have a more optimistic view of this than jake does, i must tell you. i get it. i understand why some believe that the calcification of these views by senator manchin are unlikely to change. i don't doubt the sincerity of his views but there used to be a filibuster for judicial nominees. there was once a filibuster for executive branch nominees. the reconciliation budget process is, in effect, an exception to the filibuster. so, this notion that somehow this cannot be done, that a constitutional carveout is not possible, i just don't buy that. i think that at the end of the day, senator manchin has put a lot of time and effort into crafting the compromise measure that he has put forward and we're going to have a good opportunity on wednesday to see an up or down or hopefully get to an up or down vote on that particular bill and assuming that vote does not go the way that we would like, hopefully that will provide the clarity that senator manchin has been looking for and others, perhaps, so we can have a real conversation about a constitutional carveout. but we should not assume that the senate is impervious to public opinion and for those who would make that argument, i'd point them back to the american rescue plan. there were many who doubted the president's ability to get a $1.9 trillion american rescue plan through the congress back in march. many senators expressed their opposition to components of that bill before it ultimately earned the support of every single senate democrat and the vast majority of house democrats. so i think time will tell but i'm confident that we're going to keep working on this and treating it with the seriousness that it deserves. >> i will never shout down optimism. i appreciate yours, congressman. jake sherman, as much as i appreciate your reporting. thank you both. jason's sticking around. let the record reflect jason was optimistic today too. coming up for us, donald trump slammed over the weekend by a senator from his own party who thinks donald trump's conduct on the campaign trail could be the gop's undoing in 2022 and 2024. ha. you don't say. plus, the brand-new legal development in the standoff between the ex-president and the january 6th committee. coming up next, colin powell, remembered today for his four decades in public service t first black national security advisor, chairman of the joint chiefs and secretary of state but one veteran remembers him mostly from a chance encounter on the side of a road. we'll show you that. "deadline white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. when you're driving a lincoln, stress seems to evaporate into thin air. which leaves us to wonder, where does it go? does it get tangled up in knots? or fall victim to gravity? or maybe it winds up somewhere over the bermuda triangle. perhaps you'll come up with your own theory of where the stress goes. behind the wheel of a lincoln is a mighty fine place to start. your eyes. beautiful on the outside, but if you have diabetes, there can be some not-so-pretty stuff going on inside. it's true, with diabetic retinopathy, excess sugar can damage blood vessels, causing vision loss or even blindness. so remember this: now is the time to get your eyes checked. eye care is important to your long-term diabetes management. see a path forward with actions and treatments that may help your eyes— and protect against vision loss. visit noweyesee.com and take control of your sight. omega-3 from fish oil is an important nutrient and protect against vision loss. for heart health. qunol's ultra purified omega-3, is sourced only from wild caught ocean fish, not farm raised and comes in an easy to swallow mini pill. the brand i trust is qunol. why choose proven quality sleep from sleep number? because staying healthy isn't always easy. but quality sleep is scientifically proven to help improve your overall health and wellness. and it couldn't be easier! the sleep number 360 smart bed helps you fall asleep faster by gently warming your feet. and it helps keep you asleep by sensing your movement and automatically adjusts to keep you both effortlessly comfortable. the sleep number 360 smart bed is on sale now. today, the nation mourns the death of former secretary of state colin powell, remembering his decades of service to our country. earlier, our friend and colleague, andrea mitchell, shared memories of secretary powell's compassion and this one time in 2019 when he and a fellow veteran who had lost a leg while serving in afghanistan met on the side of the road and secretary powell was stranded with a flat tire. >> when i walked up to him, i said, you're general colin powell, and he said, yes, i am. >> he jumped out of his car, this sleeveless shirt on, short pants, and i said why is this guy freezing to death? he just wanted to help me. >> it was almost felt like meeting an old friend. and so you're just two people on the side of the road and you have a situation, you have a flat tire, you're going to fix the flat. >> there was a connection between the two of you. >> yeah, because once i saw the leg, i wasn't sure if it was blown off or he had an infection and it was a combination of the two. i knew he was one of my guys. >> he was one of my guys. powell later posted about the incident online, writing this. "you touched my soul and reminded me about what this country is all about and why it is so great. let's stop screaming at each other. let's just take care of each other." joining us now is senior fellow and director of foreign and defense policy at the american enterprise institute. she worked in the office of the joint chiefs of staff under colin powell. also joining us, nbc news chief foreign affairs correspondent, an dre andrea mitchell. nothing gets me every single time like your interview and your storytelling about this incident on the side of the road for all his military and political accomplishments, this is this story, it just gets me. tell me about it. >> well, as he would say in the yiddish that he sometimes spoke from the grocery store he worked in, in the neighborhood in the bronx, he was a mensch. a great human being. and i think cori would agree, for all of his military prowess and his wisdom and judgment, he was such a good soul. there's so much to this, but i also wanted to say to all of you people on social media who say, oh, you see the vaccines don't work, because he and his wife were fully vaccinated. colin powell was an 84-year-old man with serious underlying conditions. he had had prostate cancer. he had multiple myeloma and what is not well known is that he also had parkinson's in later years, so he and his wife had both been fully vaccinated. alma powell is going to be 84, october 27th. they are in that age bracket. he is a man and more vulnerable. and nicole, what i can also report now is that he wasn't feeling well. they both were tested a week ago monday, october 11th, and they tested positive. because he wasn't feeling well, he had planned and scheduled a booster shot, last week, but he already wasn't feeling well and then they tested positive. so, instead, they went to walter reed. she was symptomatic but not seriously ill and is recovering very well at home, but he was not well, and he was hospitalized and given a number of treatments and obviously, sadly, he did not survive it. and it's just another terrible blow from this horrible pandemic, but the fact of his life, as cori knows better than i, from having worked with him in the joint chiefs, is that this was an extraordinary man and a man who was at one point during desert storm the most popular person, practically in america, in politics, pressed to run for president, as you know so well. and told me that he, you know, agonized over it but then realized that was not who he was. and for personal reasons and a lot of other reasons, that was not the right role for him, and went on, you know, of course, to become secretary of state and had a checkered time within the very complicated national security council. of advisors under george bush. privately, he was against the iraq war, and then mistakenly, to his great regret, even though he vetted all the analysis at langley, at the cia, the weekend before that fateful u.n. security council meeting in february of 2003, he accepted the final version from the cia and mistakenly told the world that saddam hussein had weapons of mass destruction, which was not true. >> cori, we've been talking about him and covering him, and this is obviously a vital part of the sort of policymaking life. i, in my time in politics, don't know that there was an endorsement in presidential history more impactful than his 2008 endorsement of president obama. but i don't know that many people sort of knit those two things together. i played his comments on january 7th of this year. he called it a national disgrace, the insurrection of january 6th. he was one of the last moral compasses in american sort of civic life. talk about where that came from. >> it came from the authentic place of him loving this country so much, loving soldiers so much. he loved that the american military was a conveyor belt into the middle class for this country. and deeply respected the way that that shaped the american military's relationship with the broader american public, and he never lost a sense of admiration for what was possible here. i was working on the mccain campaign when then former general powell endorsed barack obama in 2008. and i remember grinding my teeth about it and having a conversation in which powell said that sara palin was going to take republicans in a dark direction and what were we thinking? so, he always had a sense of the common good, even to hold people he admired, as he admired senator mccain, to account for choices along the way, and he held himself accountable for those choices too. i mean, more than anyone else who was a major figure in the run-up to the 2003 iraq war, secretary powell took responsibility for his mistakes. and it's a laudable example that is sadly rare these days in american politics. >> i think what you said is sort of, i think, what i was getting at in a far less eloquent way, kori. he called out and he saw the dark forces in the republican party so much earlier than anybody else. he saw the palin pick not at a shock level of what it sort of represented as a, you know, whatever it was, a sensation. he saw the dark forces under it that lifted her up and animated it. talk about his concerns for the country after -- from that moment through january 6th. >> colin powell was an establishment republican. he believed in guardrails and norms and institutional constraints. he once told me that what made him a pretty good chairman of the joint chiefs of staff was that he had spent a year working in the office of management and budget, and so he knew what the military looked like to the rest of the government, which was the people who got all the money they wanted to solve their problems when nobody else did. and he thought structurally he made every institution he was ever part of a better, stronger institution. when he was secretary of state, he persuaded both the administration and the congress to give money to create training programs for america's diplomats to make them better at their jobs. he cared about the people in institutions. he never thought it was odd -- i went in the summer of 1990 when i was 26 years old and a civilian, as his nato expert, and that never seemed odd to him because he thought i was good at my job. >> the people that knew him have so many stories like that, and on a day like today, you both knew him, and i'm really grateful to get to talk to you both. kori, my colleague, andrea mitchell, thank you so much. after the break, we have breaking news in the january 6th investigation. don't go anywhere. s in the januh investigation. don't go anywhere. balanced nutrition for strength and energy. whoo hoo! ensure, with 27 vitamins and minerals, now introducing ensure complete! with 30 grams of protein. ♪ i like it, i love it, i want some more of it♪ ♪i try so hard, i can't rise above it♪ ♪don't know what it is 'bout that little gal's lovin'♪ ♪but i like it, i love it♪ applebee's. now that's eatin' good in the neighborhood. - grammarly business turned my marketing team into rock stars. (diana strums guitar) maya swears by grammarly business because it keeps her work on brand and error-free. fast and easy. - [announcer] learn more at grammarly.com/business. that's a good taco. dude. it's a sandwich. [beep beep] it's a sandwich! it's a taco! ugh, not another taco guy. the new crispy chicken sandwich taco from taco bell. we're following breaking news from the january 6th committee investigation. the ex-president is now suing the 1/6 committee in d.c. district court, seeking to block any of those white house documents of his from his time as president that the committee has requested from the national archives. national archives also named in the ex-president's brand-new lawsuit. the rather desperate attempt against the bipartisan investigators' task of getting to the bottom of the capitol insurrection that happened because of and under him calls the committee's subpoenas invalid and argues it should be protected by executive privilege. joining us, carol leonnig, national reporter and msnbc contributor and coauthor of "i alone can fix it." former u.s. attorney harry litman is still with us. let me read from the "washington post" story that just came out. former president trump is suing to block the house committee investigating the january 6th attack from receiving records it's requested regarding his role and the role of his aides. lawsuit argues that the records request is overly broad and has no legislative purpose. they go on to say, quote, the committee's request amounts to nothing less than a vexatious illegal fishing expedition openly endorsed by president biden to unconstitutionally investigate trump and his administration. our laws do not permit such an impulsive, egregious action against a former president and his close advisors. there's sometimes some projection in the statements that come out of him and i seized on impulsive and egregious and i thought back to scenes from your book, the vice president refusing to leave. how much fear is there from the ex-president that this probe may be the one to turn his white house inside out? >> there's no doubt, nicole, and i like your word, "fear," here because there's no doubt that there's fear within the trump camp. i can't speak for the former president. but in that camp, about the fact that he's no longer at the controls. he's no longer the person who has the power to have definitively defined whether or not there's executive privilege that shields these documents from public review. and by the way, on the law, which harry will be able to speak to much more definitively than i will, but i could just tell you, from reading the actual language of the public records law, the presidential records law in this case, it's clear that the sitting president and the recently former president have a right to review and question whether or not these documents can be shared. but it's also clear, under the executive order that governs this, that the sitting president has the preeminence and that you're not allowed to decide how the records law applies to you. for example, in this suit, president trump says -- former president trump says he wants to see all the records that are sought before he agrees whether or not they should be shared. well, that's not what the rules are. he says he wants to challenge everything about this request, but this is a special request for congress to be able to see these, not for public release immediately, but for congress and its fact-finding mission to see those records and thus far, every single part of that law has been followed. he and his lawyers have been allowed to see the records that might be released, so they already have sort of a front row seat to know what's going to be shared. as you point out, if the president, the former president, is so sure that nothing bad happened, and he was not engaged in anything inappropriate, then he should be able to see from the records he personally has reviewed already whether or not there's a problem. and i don't think executive privilege is the issue. >> so, harry, carol is pointing out the most important thing of this story that i missed, and of course carol's pointing it out. the timeline doesn't hold up. the lawsuit wasn't filed when the committee subpoenaed the documents. so, we know the lawsuit isn't about the law or the principle. the lawsuit is about what's in the documents. carol leonnig says, he's seen what's in the documents. the lawsuit was filed today. he's seen it for a long time. and i guess my question for you, and i don't know if all our viewers know this, but the way small children play house or play military or play fire house, donald trump plays president. he is in this charade where he has not actually lost in the largest, most secure election in modern history. but part of playing president is sort of this phony exertion of executive privilege, and i wonder if you think it's just a loser in court where he's filed this suit. >> now, he's not banking on it being a loser. he's banking on it taking time, and the reason he did bring it now, something did happen to trigger it. under the legal scheme, the archivist of the united states, someone no one's ever heard of, david ferrero, gave him 30 days notice last wednesday and said, biden has told me that there's no executive privilege here and as carol says, that should be definitive. and i'm going to be turning it over. here's your 30 days to look at it. he's determined that he's got to try to somehow stop the music and get the courts involved now before it gets turned over because once it's in congress's hands, it's going to be too late. so, on the merits, yeah, it's a sort of desperate ploy that recycles arguments that already were lousy when he was president, like congress is outside of its legislative function or the executive privilege determination is wrong. but the play here is to get it gummed up in the courts and the big motion that will be coming soon will be to stay, will be a court to order the administrator, don't turn it over. if that fails, the court could easily say, no, i'm not going to do that. i'll listen to your claim, but i'm not going to stay the music. then things will proceed. if it doesn't, and he's able to gum it up, then, of course, we're looking at the sort of slow roll that was so decisive and undermining last time around during the impeachments. >> harry, how long could they gum it up in that second scenario? >> 18 months, two years, until it -- whoever has the stay -- it's as we've seen in texas. whoever gets the power of the stay and says, i'm freezing things or i'm not. if a district court freezes things, now we're in the courts and congress is blocked. and the d.c. circuit and the supreme court as well. if they don't, then even if they're looking at the merits, the january 6th committee will have the documents, according to the scheme under law, and they'll be able to proceed. >> carol, it seems that because republicans obstructed the bipartisan commission, which would have had an end date, no matter how long it takes, it sounds like the select committee will obtain these documents either way. this version, this select committee, does not have an end date, does it? >> you know, i can't answer that question with any authority. i'm sorry. i think your theory is absolutely right. but i think the stall element that harry's raising is a pretty powerful one, because if you can -- as we all know, don mcgahn never had to sit for a subpoena for a very long time. it was almost like people had forgotten what he was being questioned about by the time anybody was ruling on whether or not he could be interviewed behind closed doors. that's the white house counsel who gave evidence to robert mueller indicating that then-president trump had engaged multiple times in obstructing a criminal probe. something that would get you and i indicted, but does not lead to the prosecution of a sitting president. but it's politically very painful information, and my question has to be, to everybody, and to the archivist, what's the politically -- and to the trump campaign, what's the politically painful information in the documents you've now had sent to you for review after donald trump has insisted that nothing untoward happened here? some peaceful, loving people came up to the capitol wanting to stop an illegal steal of the election from him, and were welcomed with open arms by, again, loving, happy capitol police officers. >> it's a tourist visit, according to trump's allies in congress. carol leonnig and harry litman, thank you for jumping on. . up next for us, private fears among republicans now finally five years into this nightmare spilling out into the open that donald trump could be the republican party's worst enemy at the ballot box. that's next. party's worst enemy at the ballot box. that's next. ♪ ♪ there are beautiful ideas that remain in the dark. but with our new multi-cloud experience, you have the flexibility you need to unveil them to the world. ♪ ♪♪ your new pharmacy is here. to help you compare prices, and save on your medication. amazon prime members get select meds as low as $1 a month. who knew it could be this easy? your new pharmacy is amazon pharmacy. ♪ i'm a reporter for the new york times. if you just hold it like this. yeah. ♪ i love finding out things that other people don't want me to know. mm-hmm. [beep] i just wanted to say... ♪ find yourself in these situations and see who you are. and that's just part of the bargain. ♪ there is no place like home y'all! anand these peoplert of know thatin. there is no place like wayfair. i never thought i'd buy a pink velvet sofa, but when i saw it, i was like 'ah'. and then i sat on it, and i was like 'ooh'. ooh! stylish and napable. okay now. i can relate to this one. i'm a working mom with three boys. [ yelling ] wayfair is my therapy. amen, kim! yup! i'm hiding from my kids, as we speak. some people have joint pain, plus have high blood pressure. they may not be able to take just anything for pain. that's why doctors recommend tylenol®. it won't raise blood pressure the way that advil® aleve® or motrin® sometimes can. for trusted relief, trust tylenol®. president trump is the first president in the republican side, at least, to lose the house, the senate, and the presidency in four years. elections are about winning. >> you think that if he ran, he could lose the nomination? >> well, if you want to win the presidency, and hopefully that's what voters are thinking about, i think he might. >> but it's clear, you ain't voting for him. >> i'm not. >> aside from everything else we reported about donald trump, he's one of the biggest political losers in modern history. that was republican senator bill cassidy saying just that, telling axios he won't be voting for trump in 2024 and he believes trump would lose if he ran. he's not alone. many members of the republican party are just too scared to say it out loud but they are afraid trump will torpedo their chances in elections to come. "new york times" reports that gop officials are concerned that trump's obsession with the lie about election fraud that didn't exist is the divisive force that could cost them seats in the upcoming that could cost them ss in the upcoming midterms. barbara comstock says, it's all about him. that's what is so stupid when republicans are dealing with him, you never know when he will drive the car off of the cliff. charlie, the only thing i disagree with is, we're already at the bottom of the cliff, it's over. he's driven the republican party off of the cliff. he's pushing through voter suppression and nullification laws. what is -- what keeps bill cassidy's sentiment from knocking some sense into the rest of the cowardly republicans? >> yeah, well, if only they had been warned that this might actually happen. look, you know, i think you and i had an exchange a few months back where i referred to this as hostage taking. and you said, no, this is completely voluntary. but republicans actually think they're going to win. they think they're on a glide path to win in the midterm elections. so they don't think they're at the bottom right now. but they're looking around, going, how could we possibly blow this? he's demanding that they go along with his crackpot conspiracies. senator cassidy is talking about how he lost the house, the senate, and the presidency, that would have been a good time for republicans to turn the page. instead, they figured they would say onboard despite all the experience they had with his narcissism and his petulant demand that they toe the line. i think they're going to pay the price for this. but how can any of them be surprised? they made the same decision over and over again, to go along with trump. and he keeps upping the ante, and here we are. not a lot of sympathy over here that republicans are deciding that donald trump might be toxic for our political future. >> i disagree very infrequently with charlie. they're not off-ramps, because they're not trying to get off. because if they were an off-ramp, grabbing people between the legs would have been one, calling african nations bleep-hole countries might have been one, hanging mike pence might have been one. they're not trying to get off. this is who they are. when do we change the models to say this, let's vote. >> yeah. here's the other thing, not only are republicans not trying to get off the trump train, they're fighting and scalping tickets to get on it. look at the people who are running right now as republicans are lining up to get as trumpish as possible. does that hurt you in swing states? yes. i was at a rally for mccauliffe in virginia yesterday, and they booed every time trump came up. we have to stop pretending that republicans are conflicted about this. people tried to kill in january because this guy sent them. if that doesn't make you quit them, nothing will. >> charlie, i didn't mean to pick on you. the idea that people like cassidy populate the most vibrant parts of the republican party, it's not true. >> well, you know, i keep thinking about, you and i are both old enough to remember when people thought maybe colin powell was the future of the republican party. instead, he was a very early ex-republican. for the republicans who are privately sharing their concerns, that's gotten way, way, way old. and, you know, i remember five years ago, warning republicans, if you go along with donald trump, you're going to own all of this. you're going to own every insult, slur, and dishonesty. and republicans said, yeah, we're okay with that. they've been saying it for five years, and they've lost their muscle memory that tells them how they can break away with this. now, apparently they're going to go into the midterms, into 2024, flying the trump banner. good luck with that. >> jason, do you think they are taking the wrong lessons? >> i think they've taken the right lessons and the right lessons are, you can rally people around a lie based on white supremacy, sexism, nationalism, and homophobia, and things like that. and the key reason why republicans are optimistic for next year is, they're going to cheat. they're going to make voting laws throughout the country that will guarantee they're going to win. there are very few states where there is a very good, active, organizing republican party. the republican party in georgia is in shambles, because they haven't had to work in so long. they just figure they'll pass legislation to make it more difficult for democrats to vote. the republican party figures, if we can pass enough voter suppression, wrap ourselves in trump, and intimidate the other side, we'll be okay in 2024. a quick break for us. we'll be right back. ll take tha! ( excited yell ) woo-hoo! ensure max protein. with thirty grams of protein, one-gram of sugar, and nutrients to support immune health! ( abbot sonic ) qunol is the number one cardiologist recommended and nutrients to supform of coq10.alth! qunol has 3 times better absorption than regular coq10. the brand i trust is qunol. what the world needs now... is people. people who see energy a little bit differently. where a switch to cleaner power means a more resilient grid... ...with renewables and gas power providing energy whenever it's needed. because seeing a more sustainable world isn't far in the future. we're building it... now. ge. building a world that works. it's another day. and anything could happen. it could be the day you welcome 1,200 guests and all their devices. or it could be the day there's a cyberthreat. only comcast business' secure network solutions give you the power of sd-wan and advanced security integrated on our activecore platform so you can control your network from anywhere, anytime. it's network management redefined. every day in business is a big day. we'll keep you ready for what's next. comcast business powering possibilities. thank you so much for letting us into your homes during this extraordinary times. we're so grateful. "the beat with ari melber" starts right now. hi, ari. >> hi, nicolle. i'm curious your further reflections on colin powell, and also a time when people are looking for public servants to look up to, as we remember one. >> i said this to andrea mitchell a little bit ago. i shared a little bit of that