her family tend to have endured, is just horrific. and she finally spoke about it, for the first time yesterday. she's going to join us tonight and, i just marvel at the bravery of these people. the astonishing thing in your reporting, is at the end of everything we see there, they then vote 9 to 1. >> yeah. >> in favor of masks and against the wishes of the people who were threatening them with violence. >> that's right, and public service is a sort of always aid h form of error heroism. to be a public sever -- its to do a good thing by the world. but, it should not actually take literal bravery, it should not take physical bravery to do these kinds of jobs. to be a city counselor, to be a school board member, to do these things. but, the way the political right has dealt with covid is by bringing threat, including physical intimidation and physical harm, very, very, very close to the surface. almost immediately, for the public servants who are dealing with these questions, just as part of these jobs in public service. and i saw the footage that you're referring to from your guest tonight, i'm really looking forward to hearing which he has to say about it. but she shouldn't have to be that brave to do that job, that's on us as a country. >> exactly, exactly, there's no one signing up for the school board was ever signing up for this kind of thing. and so, that's the other part of the marvel of it, is the -- people continuing in these jobs, in the face of this. i mean, they are in a sense part of that first responder force, the people who must come up with ways of responding to covid because of their jobs, right away. and people involved in the schools have all been part of that. and now, with the school year underway, successfully, there is this -- instead of celebrating how successfully the schoolyard is gone so far, there is all this rage. with >> rage and threat and literal violence. there is going to have to be both accountability for, it but they're also has to be strategies to discuss de-escalate this stuff. they don't have to respond involve responsible figures on the right, and we're just not seeing that. >> we'll have to be very patient for them to emerge, we don't know when that's gonna happen. thank you rachel. well, steve bannon is promising to become a criminal again tomorrow. but, he won't have donald trump to pardon him this time. in the last months of the trump presidency, steve pride and it was arrested in charge for criminal -- for the way that he embezzled money that he raised from pathetically gullible trump voters, who actually gave money to steve bannon. because steve bannon lied to them, and told them that he would use that money to privately build the wall on the southern border. that the president of the united states, donald trump, was not able to build. steve bannon would build it, if you just send him your money. steve bannon defrauded trump voters, got caught by the feds, was charged with those crimes, but didn't have to go to trial in federal court because donald trump pardoned him. pardon him for defrauding donald trump's own voters. steve bannon, has been subpoenaed by the special house committee investigating the attack on the capital, testifying tomorrow. he has already become the first person history, who is trying to hide behind presidential executive privilege, even though he wasn't even when working in the white house or the government during the period that the committee is investigating. he was a private citizen. donald trump has become the first private citizen, and former president, in history to try to exert executive privilege in a congressional investigation. and today, once again president biden smackdown that false and illegal claim by donald trump. the white house released a letter today, that was actually written last week, to the archivist of the united states, where all of the presidential records are kept, that letter says, president biden does not uphold the former presidents assertions of privilege. president bided instructed the archivist to provide the house committee with all, all of the information that the committee has requested. last week, steve bannon's lawyer sent a letter to the committee saying, since these privileges belong to president trump and not to mr. bannon, until these issues are resolved, mr. bannon is legally unable to comply with your subpoena request for documents and testimony. like all trump world lawyers, steve bannon's lawyer is one of those lawyers where you wonder if you really finish law school. he is so wildly wrong. executive privilege no longer belongs to donald trump. and now belongs to president joe biden. and so, when steve bannon does not show up for his deposition tomorrow, the house committee is going to recommend to the justice department that stephen in face criminal charges, for contempt of congress. >> i think that steve bannon has been pretty public about his unwillingness to cooperate in any way. and, for my point of view, it's not up to him. he is required to show up, he's required to testify, and if he doesn't, and doesn't have a reason, a legal reason to profit, which he doesn't, then we will have hold him in criminal competent. and we will refer that to the justice department for further prosecution. that will be true of the other witnesses as well, if they do not comply. >> that was adam schiff on this program last night, he's a member of that committee. liz cheney and other members of the committee have also said that the committee is unanimously supportive -- with criminal contempt charges. the committee made news, at the close of business today by revealing that they have subpoenaed former acting assistant attorney general, jeffrey clark. in a letter to clark up accompanying the subpoena the committee said they have credible and evidence that you attempted to involve the department of justice and efforts to interrupt the peaceful transfer of power. you propose that the department send a letter to state legislators in georgia and other states suggesting that they delay certification of their election results and hold a press conference announcing that the department was investigating allegations of voter fraud. these proposals were rejected by department leadership as both, lacking a factual basis, and inconsistent with the departments institutional role. lacking a factual basis. so, jeffrey clark knows that the committee already knows that he was lying about the election, in discussions, inside the justice department, and inside the white house. jeffrey clark is ordered to testify, in a disposition, on october 29th. that gives him about two weeks, to practice invoking the fifth amendment. the committee obtained direct incriminating evidence against jeffrey clark today. in the testimony of jeff rosen, who was shouted donald trump's final act to the attorney general -- rosen told the committee the same things that he told the judiciary committee about jeffrey clark, that junior clark is living in far of criminal charges tonight, of attempted electoral fraud and conspiracy to commit election fraud. during our discussion now, jill wine-banks, -- and matt miller, former spokesman for attorney general eric holder. both are msnbc contributors. jill, i want to begin with you, i want to begin with this key question, that is a lot a lot of us confused. why were you so effective in getting compliance to subpoenas against president nixon and his administration, during the watergate investigation? and the democrats in congress have been so ineffective in relative terms, in pursuit of the same kind of subpoenas against team trump. >> it's really a very simple answer, because president nixon, despite his crimes, despite all the wrong that he did, actually believed in our system of laws and government. and, when confronted with a supreme court decision, he agreed to comply. so, he never try to stop people, he did try to claim executive privilege, but the supreme court said no, you have to balance it. and in this case, the needs for the criminal investigation far outweigh the need for executive privilege. and of course, it is clear that even if in the case cited by man's lawyer, this is a privilege of the current incumbent, it goes with the office, it does not go with the former officeholder. so there is no possible executive privilege for any of the people, and maybe most especially for bannon, who never was at the time of these conversations a part of the white house. but even if he was, there wouldn't be a legitimate claim of executive privilege. and so we have to look at, the fact that republicans now are willing to evade all laws, and to just simply stonewall in a way that is completely contrary to our democracy. >> wasn't there another element in the enforcement of your subpoenas, in the 19 seventies, 1974, in the watergate investigation? and that was the speed of the courts, it seemed like you had issued a subpoena, the subpoena for the tape for example, that case went right up to the supreme court of the united states. got a ruling and the ruling was enforced. and it seemed to take a matter of weeks, to go from subpoena to to the united states supreme court we. >> it did, we're clearly living in an alternative universe now. we issued the second subpoena for 64 tapes, for the trial on april 16th. it was argued in the supreme court july 21st, i believe. and on july 24th, the supreme court ruled in our favor, we got the tapes. and, by august 9th, so we're talking about days later, the republicans had gone to the white house and said, we saw the tapes we heard them, we cannot support you, if you do not resign, you will be convicted in a senate trial. so, that's why it happened from april aisle, guess 19 was out of office. and it could happen again if the supreme court would stop all of the political nonsense that they have been engaged in, if they would take this seriously. this is a case that cannot be left to linger for years, as it has recently. there have been other subpoenas, and it has taken up to six years for a decision, that can't be allowed to happen because justice is still denied the -- justice delayed is justice denied. and this delay, would be a killer, because we need to get this information to prevent any possibility of this happening again. we need the facts, that are being asked. everything that has been subpoenaed, everything requested in the letters, seems very clearly relevant to legislative actions. >> what matt, it seems geoff clark, my guess about him is that it's very likely that he will show up to testify. it's also very likely he will take the fifth amendment to virtually every question. we >> i think that's likely, i think that certainly he's going to have to show up to testify. he really is on an island by himself, if you look at the way he's behaving in those final weeks. he was acting completely beyond his authorities, he supposed to be in charge of environmental crimes, and was conducting his own investigations force or supposed investigation into fraud fraud. he was violating multiple department rules and having context with the white house, and members of congress, both of which he was not allowed to do on his own. and of course, violating his oath to the constitution by trying to overturn the election. and he really is, out there by himself, because we've seen jeffrey rose subordinates testifying before congress, because the justice department has already told rosen and do you to you -- from this time period that the department is waving all of the revolution privileges. usually -- and coming up and testify for matters like this. climb in multiple privilege. -- that's true for jeffrey clark, if he wants to avoid a criminal referral and be charged with criminal contempt of congress, he needs to come up and comply, and testify because otherwise he's in blatant contempt of congress. now, to your point, he wants to take the fifth, that's his right, he can do so. but he doesn't have the ability to just blow off the subpoena like, he seems to want to so matt, one of the changes in the 21st century, compared to the nixon era, is just how breathtakingly slow the courts are. at the district court, level at the appeals court, level and all of these enforcement issues, on congressional subpoenas. what about, the justice department will now be tested. when the congress refers to the justice department for criminal prosecution, of contempt of congress. we do not know how quickly the merrick garland justice department will be able to move on this. and you know, in the past, these kinds of things have been able to be handled very quickly. what is your expectation on a timetable at the justice department for this? >> i'm expecting they can move pretty quickly. the justice department has a rule that they will not prosecute someone for contempt of congress if they are refusing to testify, because there's been a legitimate claim of executive privilege by the president of the united states. that will be pretty easy for the attorney general to pick up the phone, call the white house counsel and say, did the president, did president biden invoke executive privilege for geoff clark or steve bannon or any of these witnesses? and when the answer is no, as we know the answer. is it's a pretty straight up and down prosecution. i actually think the justice department can do more to send a signal to these witnesses, and all of the other witnesses we know, this committee and other committee want to talk to you from the trump administration, by just making it clear, that if you are not the subject of an executive privilege assertion by the sitting president of the united states, not donald trump. but joe biden. and you blow off a congressional subpoena and refused to testify, you are not immune from prosecution. we will take those referrals very seriously. these witnesses are acting with impunity because for four years they got away with it with no consequences. and if doj scent that kind of signal right now, i think we would see some of these people coming up and testifying, even before it got to a subpoena. and not playing chicken with congress in playing chicken with the justice department the way they are doing now. >> matt miller, jill, thank you for starting us off tonight, really appreciate it. coming up, julianna maxwell, and alex wagner will be joining our discussion, but first, we will be joined by someone who went viral in the last 24 hours, by showing us just how bad the anti mask protesters can be. just how vicious, and how much bravery and strength it takes, for one school board member in florida, to stand up to them. jennifer jenkins will join us, and we'll tell you why she and her daughter have had to endure. and it is much much worse than you think. that's next. you think. that's next. that's next. to make sure you don't run out of meds here. and with amazon prime, get refills 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than public torture, by florida's anti mask fanatics. in florida, it's the department of children and families that investigates child abuse, the d.c. f. no one knew that the dcf was going to come up in a public meeting of the school board, the school board discussed whether it would be possible to allow homecoming dances this, year homecoming dances have been postponed indefinitely because of covid-19, when the agenda turned to a resolution, about threats against school board members, jennifer jenkins found herself, talking about something, she never wanted to talk about publicly. >> in spite of what people believe, i am not opposed to people practicing their first amendment, writes even when it's outside of my home, on a public happening. i'm not. i think it's a silly method, it's ineffective, it doesn't move me or do anything in any way. but i'm not opposed to it. when i reject is, this effort to create fear and division in the community, that leads to credible threats of violence against me in my family, and there's a lot of things that i haven't shared with all of you up here. i've tried not to talk about this stuff publicly, i don't reject people coming here in speaking there, voice we don't stop them from doing. that i don't reject them standing outside my home, i reject them following the around in a car, following my car around. i reject them saying they're coming for, me that i need to beg for mercy, i reject it when they are using their first amendment rights on public property, they are also going behind my home in brandishing their weapons to my neighbors, that they're making false d.c.'s claims against me to my daughter, that i have to take a d.c. f investigator to her play date, to go underneath her clothing and check for burn marks. that's when i'm against, which is a credible threat, and calculated. >> joining us now is jennifer jenkins, a member of the florida school board, thank you very much for joining us tonight, i am very sorry for what you have endured, and for what you are here to tell us about tonight. how long has this kind of harassment, and public torture been going on? >> thank you so much for having, me first and foremost. to be honest with you, this is something that started back in april for me. it started with a minority group of individuals, who are part of an organization that was founded by my republican opponents, who have decided that their voices are going to be used to terrorize me. the majority of people support me, and they reach out to me, and they tell me that they're there for me and they support the things that i stand for, but unfortunately it doesn't just take, it just takes one person, to terrorize you. and when there is no consequences for, it becomes the norm. and it becomes acceptable. and to be perfectly honest with you, i feel like this is the new pandemic here in the state of florida, for us to focus on. it's going across the nation as well, our school board members and our educators are being attacked and threatened for doing what they were elected to, do what i was elected to do, to keep our students and our staff safe. in what educators were hired to, do to protect their children. >> you're in a state where 60% support what you're doing, 60% support requiring students teachers and staff to wear masks in school, but you're in a republican area where that polling might be very different. you left out a lot of details, of what's happened to, you that i know, about of conversations that you and i have had today, including some of the vandalism that occurs at your home, they've attacked your plants and your trees, it's a very active kind of thing, it's at the police an hour and 40 minutes to come to your home one time, when one of these things was going on. what is it like to be in your home, with your daughter, watching that stuff? >> it's really difficult, the last protests where they came outside of my home, again i'm not against people using their first amendment, raids there on public property, that's okay, but i'm against them terrorizing my family, there is 25 individual standing outside my home in a small beach town in florida. they were there for hours. police presence did not come right away, it started to get dark, out it's time for me to put my daughter, tibetan as i'm sitting trying to read her story, these individuals are walking right by her, bedroom saying, vile things. and as i follow them around the corner, to where their cars were parked into a parking, law right behind my home, police presence wasn't following them until i was there, they got in my face they coughed in my, phase telling me they were gonna give me, covid they swung flags in my flees nearly missing me by a couple of inches. they said horrible disgusting things to my neighbors, and i eventually went back inside. but they brandished their weapons in the parking lot in front of my neighbors, and my daughter to this day, at least twice a week says to me when she's going, to bed mommy or those mean people going to be outside again. it's been very difficult, yes they did they vandalized my property. they row obscenity is on my grass, with weed killer, they cut down some of my plants. as you had mentioned, they did it -- which was really difficult for me. i had to take the d.c. f investigator to a play dates, of somebody who i am just an acquaintance, of i don't even know, very well here i am a school board member, walking back to a play, day i had just dropped her off, to the d.c. of investigator with no announcements, for them to look underneath her clothes, to see if she has burns. it's a really uncomfortable position to be in, and unfortunately, even though the police department is doing their best to have subpoenas sent to the state to figure out who made that unfounded claim, there's only so far they can go, and so currently, i still have a document that says, i hadn't unfounded d.c. of claim against, me it's not something that's going to go away. >> what did you tell your daughter about that incident, with the d.c. f, during that played a? >> you know the d.c. of investigator was fantastic. and so she had no idea it was going on, and i really appreciated that person understanding that this was very likely a unfounded claim, the police department came with. are they let her know and has been going on with me, and within the community. and so she handled it very well, and i was really happy that she was there. >> why did you want to become a member of the school board, and do you want to continue as a member of the school board? >> iran as to become a member of the school board because i'm an educator, my husband is an educator, and my daughter just turned five years, old she just enter kindergarten, i'm invested in public education professionally and personally, i truly cared, i cared about making a difference for educators, we've had some serious fights for significant wage increases here, and in florida overall, and that was one of my passions, in the equity across my district. i really cared about my students making sure they all had equal opportunities to the same economic outcomes and success. unfortunately covid got in the way in the middle of my campaign, that really became the focus of the conversation. but i was really grateful to be there, because the person i was running against, was completely against every litigation strategy. ultimately that is why end up winning my election. and i'm really excited and proud to be on this board. and proud to continue to stand up for the safety and health of our students and staff. >> i understand that, but have you, at what point do you run into a kind of torture, for doing this job? that would make you say to yourself and your family, i cannot continue to do this. >> i would be lying to you, if i did not say that i have had some really really dark moments. this is been so difficult for me and my family, and the people who care about us and love us. it is been horrible. but, i have done my best to not put that out in the public. i want people to know that i am strong, i am there for them. and i will continue to fight for them. and i will never give up on that. but i also did not want the people to know who were doing this to me, that it did affect me. because, it will never break me. and i will never ever stepped back on a promise that i made to the residents of our county. i'm going to be, there i'm going to fill my term. and if the timing is, right and if everything is right, maybe i'll do it again. >> jennifer jenkins thank you very much for joining us tonight, in thank you very much for serving the voters who elected you in exactly the way that you have promised you would. i'm very very sorry for what that has cost you so far, for you and your family. >> i appreciate. it >> thank you so much. >> thank you, really appreciate it. joining our discussion, now alex, wagner cohosted executive producer of sort times a circus, she's writer at the atlantic, always with us julia maxwell, host of the program zerlina, that airs on peacock. and i just want to hand this over to both of, you i'm kind of speechless at the moment. zerlina go ahead. >> that was really hard to listen to lawrence, because i feel in my heart, we are all living through a pandemic, and nobody is really done this before, and so we are all sort of flailing about, in can we just be a little bit nicer in kinder to each other, in unfortunately what has happened, is we've lived through four years of a presidency where so much bad behavior was normalized, racism, inside, jimmy homophobia, bullying, and so nobody, is raising their kids to behave in this way, the way adults are behaving, in some of these school board meetings, and across the country, and it's so unfortunate, because so much life has been lost, because masks and mitigation measures in vaccination, it's been politicized, when it should never have been. and it is, it's a crime against humanity frankly, that's so much of this has been put up for debate. as if science is not fact. and there is too much loss of life as a result. >> alex wagner, i do not praise jennifer jenkins enough. the one thing i can say just by comparison, is i am sure, that i could not endure what she has endured to do her job. >> yes. as a mother of a child who is not vaccinated, because he's not qualified to be vaccinated yet, he's the very same age bracket as her child, i think all of us moms believe in science are very grateful, that jennifer is serving on the school board, but what's struck me in all of this lawrence, is this is not about this is about a michigan mitigations strategy. i believe this is about, what's the rate sees as cultural an existential cultural battle, that needs to be waged. with every tool, every tool in the arsenal if you will. this is not about masks, this is about a way of life. this is a push back against what they see as an encroaching liberal majority, that believes in science, in the social compact, but that is fundamentally out there too and a rate christian way of, life to quote unquote, an american way of life. and masks are just a proxy for. that in that belies another truth, which is that range is central, to the republican party right now. it is in fact the ideology of the republican party. it doesn't matter what the issue, is whether it's immigration, or covid, or infrastructure, the response is rooted in rage, and there's no particular policy platform at this point, there's only this emotional center of anger, and ploy is it animated. when you watch these videos of the school board members, in fact to hear jennifer's testimony, this is about something much larger, and more deeply emotional, that sits at the center of conservatism in the 21st century. in i don't really know how you combat that. it's not about being bipartisan, and it's not about reaching across the aisle, it's not even about some kind of persuasive argument the people like jennifer can make, because what you are running up against, is this deep existential rage, and fear that is being stoked on a daily monthly hourly basis, by one of our two political parties in this country. >> is, alito alex is just framed for me, has made me now see this, as she was speaking, as a kind of local version, of the trump election loss. because the person who's running this torture program, against jennifer, is the person she beats in the election, the republican she beats in the election, in a used to be the democrats beat the republicans, the republican waited around for the next election, or went off into the real estate, business or something else, but now, democrat beats the republican, and the republican goes into attack, against the democrat, who beat the republican, and you get things lake, january six, and you get things like the continuing trumpian madness that donald trump spews every day. about the election that he lost. in this would be the local version of that, and the local january 6th version is they are on your front lawn. >> yes. lawrence one of the things that does help me, i don't know wake up every day and put one foot in front of the other is that this is the minority of the american public. this is a small minority of the american public. they are very. loud they are angry as alex is, said she is right about that, but they are not, now nor will they be the majority, of american voters. will republicans be able to rig the election process? in their favor to spite the math? that i think is the question for the democrats in the senate, mainly senator manchin and kristen sinema. right at this moment. but i think in the big picture, we have to remember, that they are not the majority of the people. donald trump lost to elections, the popular vote into elections, and in the second one it was a by about three times the one is the first, time the american public is clear about how they feel about this approach to american politics, in the do not want it. the question is, are we going to be able to marginalize these angry, voices these bullying voices, at the local level, but also at the national level. >> i want to switch to this situation in texas, that you've been covering alex on the new texas abortion law. because i saw some of your interview, which we ran here with dr., intermission i want to run some of it again. because it is so powerful. with doctor dervish, explain to you what she's already experienced with this texas abortion law. let's watch. >> the first patient, who i saw after the law went into effect, i told her that we could see cardiac activity, she just curled up into a ball on the table, and just started sobbing. and she asked if she could hold my hand. >> yeah. >> and that was all i could do for her in that moment. she was a college student, had a birth control failure, you know, she was a person who was not in a situation where she could be pregnant, women in texas have been punished, legislative session after legislative session. these are people you know her getting turned away, and this could be you next. >> alex i've seen nothing on television that delivers more powerfully, the reality of what's happening in texas. >> lawrence, the average woman in texas, would have to drive 275 miles, to get an abortion. let's just be real, nobody wants to get an abortion. this is not something that patients are running after to get. this is a wrenching decision, a wrenching decision. that the state of texas may, for the last decade basically, they've made it very difficult. and at this stage, effectively impossible. there's a number of challenges that women need to clear, if their pregnancy show sign of cardiac activity, which is usually at about five or six weeks, which is before most women even know their pregnant, they cannot get an abortion in texas. which means out of state clinics have been flooded with calls, requests, there are women taking matters into their own hands. i mean texas is a case study. and what happens when you don't have roe v. wade. in what is so shocking to me is the fact that we have really lost sight of humanity in this hour. whether it's a school board, member or a college student whose birth control failed her. we have lost our humanity. >> yeah that is with this segment has been about. alex wagner, -- thank you both for joining this discussion tonight, i really appreciate, it could not have done it without. you thank you very. much >> thanks. lawrence >> thanks. lawrence >> thank. you coming up donald trump's company is now a criminal defendant in a tax fraud case, in manhattan. according to federal rules, the trump organization can now be barred from doing business with the federal government. which means donald trump should, immediately lose the rights to operate his washington d.c. hotel, on federal property. that's next. on federal property that's next. that's next. your skin isn't just skin, it's a beautiful 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zone? ask your health care provider today about once-weekly ozempic®. oh, oh, oh, ozempic®! you may pay as little as $25 for a 3-month prescription. last week, the house oversight committee released documents showing that donald trump's washington d.c. hotel, lost more than $70 million during his presidency. and tonight, there are new reports that the hotel converted from the still federally owned old post office building, in washington, will be sold. according to wall street journal, the trump organization is an advance discussions to sell the rights to its washington d.c. hotel, in a deal worth more than 300 and $70 million. the least deal could ultimately fetch closer to $400 million, which would represent roughly a doubling of the money the trump organization spent to convert the government building into a luxury hotel. over house oversight committee report, on the trump hotel, founded in 2018, deutsche bank provided president trump with a significant financial benefit by allowing him to delay making principle payments on the trump hotels 170 million dollar loan. the house oversight committee also found that the documents provided by the general services administration, quote, raise new and troubling questions about former president trump's lease with gsa and the agency's ability to manage the former presidents conflicts of interest during his term in office. one of the initial conditions for holding elise, on that federal property, was that no government official would be allowed to be involved in leasing the building. donald trump became a government official, after he obtained that lease. yesterday, citizens responsibility -- in washington. and the project of government oversight, sent a letter to five federal agencies who have done business with trump organization entities, including the general services administration, saying quote, it is standard practice to suspend contractors under indictment. in fact, the government suspense and d bars thousands of contractors each year, including small businesses with a limited financial means, based on allegations far less serious than the criminal charges facing the trump organization. the trump organization has been indicted by a grand jury in manhattan, and is now facing criminal prosecution, for tax fraud. in new york. but the former director of the u.s. office of government ethics, walter sean, will join us next. sean, will join us next. us next. without frequent heartburn waking her up. now, that dream... . ...is her reality. nexium 24hr stops acid before it starts, for all-day, all-night protection. can you imagine 24 hours without heartburn? welcome to allstate. ♪ ♪ you already pay for car insurance, ♪ why not take your home along for the ride? ♪ allstate. here, better protection costs a whole lot less. you're in good hands with allstate. ♪ i've got moderate to severe plaque psoriasis. now, there's skyrizi. 3 out of 4 people achieved 90% clearer skin at 4 months, after just 2 doses. 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to “find themself.” leaving you lost. you need to hire. i need indeed. indeed you do. indeed instant match instantly delivers quality candidates matching your job description. visit indeed.com/hire joining us now, walter show, senior ethics fellow at the project -- home he's the former director of the u.s.'s office of the ethics, of the abramovich been astray shun, he resigned in protest during the trump administration. walter, thank you very much for joining us tonight. i know you have been focused on the trump hotel since the transition day, between the obama administration and the trump administration. your reaction to this possible, pending sale, while the trump organization is under indictment in manhattan. >> yeah, it's absolutely crazy. he should not even have this lease, the gsa's determination back in 2017, that he could keep it, fluid in a face of the language of the contract. unfortunately, the lonely contract officer who made that decision, was so taken with the start white experience of working with the first family, that he actually wound up asking trump to get coffee with him, when all was said with undone. to sort of celebrate the future that they had with the government. >> yeah, it's it started off as a violation that a government official could even own this lease, that government official being donald trump. now you're at the stage where, that company, that owns at least, has been indicted. and there are federal rules that say, when something got happened to your company, federal government can cancel all dealings with you. >> yeah, they absolutely should suspend the trump organization. they've done it for a less we, anderson was suspended on indictment alone during the and run, and they could do that here. you've got the trump organization indicted, it's entered into settlement with the new york attorney general, involving claims of fraud and false filings. there is no reason the federal government should run the risk offending new contracts being awarded to the trump organization. >> let's clarify what the trump company actually owns. they don't own the building. they own a lease, a long lease. and at least his with the federal government. and they canceled at least as someone else. >> yeah, we -- if they approve the buyer they can sell it, it's nearly 100-year lease when you county options for renewal. so, this is an innumerous enormous commodity, that the federal government gave and then illegally allow the trump organization to retain. and then simply fail to conduct any meaningful oversight, during the trump era. >> and, what about now, what's preventing any meaningful oversight now? >> well, sadly, i think it's the same thing we're seeing with the justice department. there seems to be this fear, that they'll be viewed as engaging in retribution, politically motivated. or, that they may face retaliation themselves from future administration. but i think it's a failure to grasp that we are so far outside of the norm, and in such dangerous territory. that the greater risk in my view, is the impunity from the lack of government holding anyone accountable. it's at sentences us as a nation to endure more of this, because future bad actors will know they can get away with it. >> walter shaub, thank you very much for joining us tonight, really appreciate it. >> we'll be right back. be right back [ sneeze ] are you ok? oh, it's just a cold. if you have high blood pressure, a cold is not just a cold. unlike other cold medicines, coricidin provides powerful cold relief without raising your blood pressure be there for life's best moments with coricidin. now in sugar free liquid. at vanguard, you're more than just an investor, you're an owner with access to financial advice, tools and a personalized plan that helps you build a future for those you love. vanguard. become an owner. as a dj, i know all about customization. vanguard. that's why i love liberty mutual. they customize my car insurance, so i only pay 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robust effort to overturn our election. former acting assistant attorney general, jeffrey clark, reportedly played a key role in trump's campaign, to amplify the big lies about voter fraud. clark and trump were reported to have been in contact during the days before the capitol attack. clark was also said to have pushed trump's claims within the department of justice, and indeed clashed with higher ups, who resisted. the subpoena letter to clark says this in part quote, the select committee's investigation has revealed credible evidence that you attempted to devolve the department of justice, in efforts to interrupt the peaceful transfer of power. as

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