friday, biden reportedly told house democrats to bring that price down to somewhere between 1.9 and $2.3 trillion over ten years. bernie sanders, who favored a larger bill than the $3.5 trillion, was actually questioned about that by chuck todd on "meet the press" this morning. >> have you accepted the fact that it's not going to be $3.5 trillion? >> that's not my understanding what he said. what he said, there is going to have to be give and take on both sides. i'm not clear he did bring forth a specific number. >> at the end of the day, this is basically a numbers game. what's the price tag that both factions of the democratic party, the two that are hoeltd holding out on the senate side, can agree on. >> it has never been about the price tag. it's about what we want to deliver. i don't feel the need to give a number. my number was 3.5. >> what about 1.5? >> that's not going to happen. >> why is that -- why won't it add up to that? >> that's too small to get our priorities in. it's going to be between 1.5 and 3.5. i think the white house is working on that right now. >> across the aisle, as you can imagine, republicans are practically giddy at the sight of all of this dysfunction. wyoming senator made clear this morning. >> i thought joe biden went to the hill on friday to try to get that bipartisan infrastructure bill passed. instead, he surrendered to the radical wing of his party and now you have this big government socialism reckless spending bill. the democrats are not coming to talk with republicans on any of these things. >> at this point, all sides are basically talking past each other, because the white house wants to know why republicans are not helping the democrats dig out of the hole they found themselves in. >> the real question is, why are republicans making us go at everything alone? we have to do the american rescue plan alone. the good news is, we have a united democratic party. we are always going to put people and purpose first, not politics. we will get it done. >> to be clear, i think he said united. did he say united? with all due respect, if this is what united looks like, i would hate to see what a divided democratic house looks like. let's begin our discussion with one of the 11 democratic senators who last week voiced support. i spoke with tina smith earlier this evening. senator smith, welcome and thank you so much for your time. i want to start with the letter of support that you signed on to explicitly saying that house progressives intend to vote for the bipartisan infrastructure bill only once the build back better act is passed. is that a verbal commitment that a deal is not enough? must the build back better act be formally passed first or just agreed upon? >> us progressives in the senate, that signed on the letter, wanted to buck up the house progressives and make sure that they knew that we were with them in making the point that these two bills need to go together. they are both two sides of the same coin of the broad agenda that president biden ran on in 2020, that i ran on in 2020 and we need do all of it together. the bipartisan bill is great. but we also need to remember the rest of the campaign that we ran on, which is around lowering prescription drugs, addressing the crisis of climate change, making childcare more affordable. we signed that letter just to remind folks that these things are two peas in the same pod. they have to go together. >> at the core of this, it seems about trust. correct me if i'm wrong. do you trust your colleagues, sinema and manchin? why is there this reluctance to science the infrastructure bill, get that done and then do the human infrastructure? it se seems like members of the democratic caucus don't trust them. >> absolutely i trust them. i believe that both of them are negotiating in good faith. but this is a negotiation. we don't all see this exactly the same way. it isn't enough to say, we will find an agreement. we need to understand what exactly that agreement is going to be. that i think is really at the root of why we want -- why we made that statement. negotiations are hard. hard stuff is hard to do. we have to remember that and just kind of keep on pushing forward and finding that path forward that all 50 of us in the senate can agree on. >> let me play this clip from the director of the white house office of public engagement. he was on "meet the press" this morning. >> people will be disappointed. people will not get everything they want. that's the art of legislating. the goal here is to get both bills. we're going to fight until we get both bills. >> do you accept that you will be disappointed and might not get everything that you want? what are you willing to accept? i know they said the range is between 1.5 and 3.5. are you willing to work within that range? must it be 3.5? is it more about what is being cut? >> absolutely, i'm willing to compromise. if you are not willing to compromise, then you are not in the midst of a negotiation. i don't actually sign these -- what i want to know is what are we going do? we need to build up from what we say is important to accomplish for our country. lowering prescription drugs, paying for childcare, making childcare more affordable and of course, what i have been focusing my time on, which is addressing the climate crisis. let's figure out how much that is going to cost, what we are able to do. then build from there. of course, we're going to have to compromise to get to an agreement that i hope comes as close as we possibly can to fulfilling the agenda that caused americans and minnesotans to turn out in record numbers in 2020. they saw, now we're going to see something that's going to help me in my life. i want to be able to get that done. >> senator manchin said on wednesday that an expansion of medicaid that democrats are seeking to include in the reconciliation bill must include the hyde amendment to get his support. it states medicaid and other federal programs are prohibited from covering abortion expenses. this morning, congresswoman said she would not support it. how much of a roadblock do you expect it to be that senator manchin is insisting on? >> i think representative said this is a negotiation. i strongly oppose the hyde amendment. it says that the one in five american women that are of reproductive age that get health insurance from medicaid don't have full access to their reproductive health care, they don't have full access to all of the reproductive rights, because of the hyde amendment. this not only is discriminatory against poor women but so many of the women that rely on medicaid are women of color. it also kind of continues this systemic challenge of inequity. i'm opposed to it. we have to figure out how to get this through. of course, unfortunately, the hyde amendment has been in place in one way or another since 1976 when it first was enacted. this is a battle that we fight over and over again as we work to try to protect the reproductive rights of women and in this case poor women. >> senator tina smith, who can now add one more title, you are a grandmother, congratulations on your new grandson. we appreciate you spending a little bit of your time with us this evening. congratulations. thank you for your time. let's continue the discussion now with a member of the congressional progressive caucus who is the freshman representative to leadership on the team. it's good to see you. do you consider this week to be a victory for progressives? how are you measuring success? are you willing to accept a bill that is between 1.5 and $3.5 trillion? >> it's good to be with you. last week was a success and a victory not just for progressives but the american people. this is joe biden's economic agenda. we are back on track to negotiating and then passing a large reconciliation bill known as the build back better act. of course, that smaller bipartisan infrastructure bill. i don't like to put a number on what the final reconciliation bill should be. i'm more focused on the substance. can we do enough to ensure high quality affordable childcare for every family in america? what is required in order to for us to invest in climate action that stops the climate crisis from continuing and worsening. how much is it going to cost to do a real paid family leave program so we can catch up with the rest of the developed world? of course, how much is it going to cost to expand medicare to include dental, vision and hearing? that's what i'm focused on. i'm focused on substance. i'm thrilled to have a president who agreed with the progressive strategy in the house in ensuring we pass both of these large bills. >> i want to read something that was attributed to you. it was a quote you said in the hill. it says in part, referring to the small handful of conservative democrats working to block the president's agenda as moderates does grave harm to the english language and unfairly maligns my colleagues who are actually moderate yet by and large understand the stakes of this historic moment. i agree with you. i have been keying on this show to use the world conservative democrats to describe the positions being held by somebody like senator joe manchin or sinema. is there a better term to describe them? >> look, i think we can go with conservative for now to say the least. let's consider the fact that on the house side, overwhelmingly, all members of the house democratic caucus, the president of the united states, obviously the speaker of the house and majority leader chuck schumer are in support of this strategy. and are in support of a $3.5 trillion budget reconciliation bill. that is true of literally everyone over in the united states senate on the democratic side with the exception of two senators. so it's not accurate to refer to them as moderate who are representative really of any faction other than a very conservative faction within the democratic party. >> i'm curious to get your thoughts because it was new to a lot of people in public, this kind of agreement. i know it's on the senate side of the equation. what do you make of this kind of agreement that was signed between senator schumer and senator manchin saying he wouldn't go above $1.5 trillion, that that was his starting position? why did we -- i assume you found out about it the same way that we did, when it was put out there into the public a couple days ago. why was that held on to so secretly? doesn't it conjure up the perception that people have about washington, that these deals are done kind of in secret and nobody gets to know what was actually agreed upon until the very end? >> you know, i actually don't agree with the fallout from that letter. i think people are being way too hard on the majority leader. the fact is, joe manchin, just like sinema, voted for a $3.5 trillion budget resolution after that acknowledgement was signed by both manchin and schumer. of course, at the bottom it talks about how manchin is not guaranteed to vote for something larger than 1.5. it doesn't say he won't. he will work to dissuade joe manchin of his positions on a variety of subject matter memorialized in that document. it was required to get him to vote for the resolution. i think he did the right thing. >> i appreciate you giving me that gut check. let's talk about arizona. you have arizona democrats laying the groundwork for a primary challenge to senator sinema. you support that idea even if it could make the seat vulnerable to a republican takeover? >> look, i think it's up to arizona democrats as to what kind of leadership they want in the united states senate. make no mistake about it, arizona politics do not require sinema to be as conservative and as obstructionist as she has been. i would argue that west virginia politics don't require joe manchin to be as conservative and obstructionist as he has been in the area of this budget reconciliation bill. when you do the polling, this stuff is broadly popular across both democratic and republican -- >> that's what makes it frustrating. >> it is. it is. i think a lot of people have done analysis on other factors at play. how much money are people getting from industries? i'm proud not to take corporate money. many of my colleagues don't. just generally speaking, i come from a generation of folks who are just much more willing to do what's right by the american people rather than compromise our values for the sake of compromise, i would submit. i think sinema can raise money without doing the kind of activities she's been doing, fleeing washington to have a retreat in the midst of negotiations. >> i was going to say the same thing. new york ty"new york times" rep was attending fund-raisers. you have to wonder who her big interest -- special interest donors are and whether they have a stake in the outcome of the two bills. always a pleasure. thank you for your time. coming up, a new whistle-blower is accusing facebook of contributing to the polarization here in the u.s. i will talk one on one with the whistle-blower's attorney coming up next. the week long soap opera starring ozy media has come to a close. we will discuss what happened and how one bizarre story got bigger and weirder over the past five days. first, the headlines. >> thank you. there are stories we are watching. a major oil spill in southern california has forced multiple beaches to close. the coast guard is monitoring for any wildlife that could be contaminated. eight people are dead after a small plane crashed into a vacant building in milan. officials confirm those on board were involved in the crash. italy's national aviation safety agency has opened an investigation. on saturday, the cdc released guidance for the holiday season. the agency recommends socially distanced outdoor celebrations. if indoors, they suggest circulating air to reduce the risk of spreading coronavirus. they are urging the unvaccinated not to travel. more aym eaymam after the break. 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>> there's a number of things that were disclosed to the sec. first, documents that she had collected that was provided to the sec as well as to congress. we also provided a series of disclosures articulaing some of the underlying concerns. you have probably seen in the article about the cross check program and technical elements in terms of how they were running algorithms or allowing people who are in positions of -- who are high profile to effectively engage in behavior without any consequences. then we also provided an explanation as to how those algorithms and how the system was being run that adversely impacted individuals personally, like teenagers and teen mental health. we also discuss and describe how the platform has impacted society as a whole, democracies. in fact, so far as having an impact as to a genocide in myanmar. we are talking about things brought to light about the information that the company knew, when it knew it and the fact that they knew that there were -- there was an ability to mitigate these problems. >> as you could imagine, the reaction from facebook has been to try and do some damage control. they have been trying to get ahead of tuesday's testimony. let me play for you a clip from the company's vice president of global affairs on cnn from earlier today. >> the assertion is that january 6 can be explained because of social media. i think that's ludicrous. the responsibility for the violence of january 6 and the insurrection on that day lies with the people who inflicted the violence and those who encouraged them, including then president trump and candidly many other people elsewhere in the media. i think it would be too easy to suggest that with a tweak to an algorithm, the polarization in u.s. politics would evaporate. it absolves people of asking themselves the harder questions that have led to the politics we have in the u.s. today. >> do you or your client believe that facebook had a role in january 6? what is the allegation in relationship to facebook's role in the way communication or organization was taking place around that insurrection? >> absolutely. this is a platform that has been used by individuals who are spreading misinformation and disinformation. we have foreign governments use it to stoke hatred and violence. at the end of the day, it's about facebook's underlying algorithms and how the system was set up. one of our disclosures establishes that facebook actually prioritized the spread of things that are hateful because it got more clicks. it's click bait. that's what people are attracted are. positive stories, favorable stories were not spread as far and wide as disinformation because people can latch on to that. to say facebook had no role in what ultimately led to whether it's january 6 or other events globally, again, i point to myanmar, is a false statement. they had a role. they are the vehicle by which misinformation is spread globally. >> i'm sure you have heard this comparison, facebook to big tobacco. it's something he rejected there. you had massachusetts senator markey say they are pushing a product they know is harmful to the health of young people. do you think that is an appropriate comparison? b, do you believe facebook to be or your client believes that facebook to be an overall harmful product to society? >> first, i do agree with that analogy. i do believe that what's coming out today is not dissimilar to what came about with big tobacco years ago. it was finally publically disclosed that big tobacco knew their products were harmful to the general public. because of her disclosures, we now know that facebook knows that its product is harmful to teenagers, to society in general, to democracies and to global health. that being said, unlike tobacco, if facebook will continue to exist or platforms like facebook will continue to exist, so it's not you can do away with tobacco. we have to learn how to live with facebook and regulate facebook so we can mitigate it from becoming a more harmful product. >> you think congress -- do you have the confidence congress can do that given what we have seen from congress in dealing with big tech? >> i think before they were listening to what big tech was telling them. now they know what big tech knows. they know and what congress should want now and demand is full transparency. that's something that my client wants. my client wants congress to be knowledgeable about what these companies can do, what they know. what tools are at their dispoal to fix the problems. i do believe when congress learns about this, starting on tuesday and going forward, that perhaps we can have some meaningful conversations how to fix these problems. >> we look forward to having those conversations with you going forward. thank you so much for your time. it's been a busy day. appreciate it. coming up, the supreme court is returning to the bench tomorrow and tackling high profile cases. we will break down what to expect in the coming weeks with my sunday night panel. don't go anywhere. n't go anywhe. this may look like a regular movie night. but if you're a kid with diabetes, it's more. it's the simple act of enjoying time with friends, knowing you understand your glucose levels. ♪♪ wealth is your first big investment. worth is a partner to help share the load. wealth is saving a little extra. worth is knowing it's never too late to start - or too early. ♪ ♪ wealth helps you retire. worth is knowing why. ♪ ♪ principal. for all it's worth. ♪♪ things you start when you're 45. coaching. new workouts. and screening for colon cancer. yep. the american cancer society recommends screening starting at age 45, instead of 50, since colon cancer is increasing in younger adults. i'm cologuard®. i'm convenient and find 92% of colon cancers... ...even in early stages. i'm for people 45 plus at average risk for colon cancer, not high risk. false positive and negative results may occur. ask your provider if cologuard is right for you. when you really need to sleep you reach for the really good stuff. new zzzquil ultra helps you sleep better and longer when you need it most. it's non habit forming and powered by the makers of nyquil. new zzzquil ultra. when you really really need to sleep. we have to be able to repair the enamel on a daily basis. with pronamel repair toothpaste, we can help actively repair enamel in its weakened state. it's innovative. my go to toothpaste is going to be pronamel repair. let me get this straight. you've got an a.i. strategy to deliver a better customer experience, that will help us retain our customers and even grow our business? 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is it being taken advantage of by this conservative majority court? >> yes, it's being taken advantage of because they are a dangerous cabal which does not want people to know what they are doing. the things the court will do, like overturning roe v. wade and empowering the gun lobby, these are things the majority of americans are against. these are conservative ideals they cannot win through the ballot box, through elections. they are using the unelected, unaccountable and unrepresentative supreme court to push these culture war agenda items through. of course people like alito doesn't want people to know what's going on. it's like the wizard of oz. he is sitting here behind the curtain. that's where we are right now. >> a great impression. >> i know that you are a branding expert. i mention that poll just moments ago, public perception is hurting. do you think the justices are feeling some of the pressure given the fact that you had at least, by my count, five of them doing interviews or making public statements about the perception of the court and the image of the court just within the last couple of weeks? has all this speaking out done more harm than good? >> i think it's done a little bit more harm than good. the reason why i think that is because never really do you hear much out of the supreme court justices on the media. you really don't hear much about it. the other thing of it was, do you remember when trump was running and campaigning, he would make references to the supreme court nominations. i think it would rally a lot of the conservative base that he had to make different decisions on how they were going to vote for u.s. senate. in a weird way, you almost can look to president trump and say that he kind of fanned the flames for politicizing a lot of the supreme court justices, meaning vote for this person for u.s. senate because they will forget whoever you have is going to make an impact on the supreme court. i think that when trump ran, he really put a lot of emphasis on, don't forget, i pick the nominee. i think that they were forefront in the media. >> can we put the charade aside that justices are supposed to be impartial when the president specifically said, i'm going to pick pro life justices and then campaigns for, as you said, senators who will go out and appoint or at least endorse pro life justices? why are we pretending that that's not a factor a litmus test in the way the justices were chosen? eli, you wrote that with a super majority of conservatives, the kinds of cases the court considers has moved to the right. it's not that every case will be decided 6-3. it's that all the cases will be argued on conservative terms over the issues conservatives care about and decided based on what conservatives think they can get away with. explain that to me. how do you see that in the cases the court chose this term and how this could all turn out? >> look at the abortion case. mississippi bans abortion after 15 weeks. this is a direct violation of roe v. wade. so direct that a conserative judge and the conservative controlled fifth circuit took mississippi's law and through it out on a rail. that's how obviously violaing it is. the supreme court, 6-3 conservative, four conseratives decided they want to hear that case. they want to argue about that case. this is a case that would never be in front of a split court or a liberal court but is absolutely in front of a conservative court. however it comes down, whether it's merely a roll back of roe v. wade, a weakening, the way they gutted the voting rights act from the inside out, whether it's that or complete overturning of roe v. wade as mississippi asked for, it's all the way over here. we are fighting over what the right wants to fight about because if we weren't, this case wouldn't be here. >> do you think that the court should be expanded? >> yes. by a lot. you just had two democrats on who get it and who have been fighting for court expansion. his bill is a plus four, 13 justices, 13 circuit courts. that's fine. i'm fine with that because of mcconnell's shenanigans with coney barrett and garland. i support more. i want 10 or 20 more justices. if you really expand the court by a lot, what you are doing is not just revenge against mcconnell, it's reforming the entire court. if you had 29 justices on the court, we wouldn't fight like this every time one of them dies or every time one of them retires. it would de-politicize it. i'm liberal. i want crazy liberal decisions. other people say they want moderate decisions from the supreme court. you want moderate decisions? try getting 15 people together in a majority opinion on the 29 person court as opposed to five. i promise, that would be a more moderate decision. >> final thought to you, noel. should the supreme court be expanded? >> first of all, this is a wild thought. i just wish that they weren't lifetime appointments. what position do you know that has a lifetime appointment? we really would not be dealing with this. i'm all about checks and balances which are what the supreme court is supposed to do. they're supposed to look at different cases and just rule according to the law. i think that -- i don't know. as far as court packing, if i were a democrat -- eli made a great point. i'm a liberal democrat. he is honest. but there are a lot of people in the gop camp that are like, my gosh, no. we got our people in. we want to see it through. we don't want it packed. back to my original point. i wish they weren't lifetime appointments. >> thank you both very much. greatly appreciate your insights this evening. take care. coming up, it has been three years since khashoggi was murdered. what has the u.s. done to hold saudi arabia accountable? as someone who resembles someone else... i appreciate that liberty mutual knows everyone's unique. that's why they customize your car insurance, so you only pay for what you need. 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>> yes. i said it at the time. khashoggi was, in fact, murdered and dismembered. i believe on the order of the crown prince. i would make it very clear, we were not going to, in fact, sell more weapons to them, we were going to make them pay the price and make them, in fact, the pariah that they are. >> that was then presidential candidate joe biden less than two years ago promising to hold the saudi leaders accountable for the murder of khashoggi. it has been three years since his death. that stance has faded since then. look at yesterday's tweet by secretary of state blinken. there's no mention of saudi arabia or the saudi crown prince. what's more, biden's national security advisor jake sullivan actually met with him this week. do not claim that the killing of a good person who stood for democracy and freedom is wrong when you have no intention to make it right. don't get me wrong, biden has done more to trump to counter the saudis. he paused some weapon sales. but the biden administration stopped short of sanctioning directly, despite the intelligence report confirming that the crown prince approved the operation. three years later, what message does this send to other sovereign countries? 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when is faking it going too far? when an officer of your digital media company impersonates a youtube executive on a conference call in order to secure $40 million in new financing from a major investment bank. and just to be clear, that is not a hypothetical situation. that's exactly what the co-founder and chief officer of ozy media did last winter. the incident was reported by ben smit in "the new york times," a week ago. and on friday, just five days after the bombshell column was published, ozy announced they are closing up shop. joining me now, ben smith, "the new york times" columnist that broke the story wide-open. this is a fascinating story, with so many twists and turns, i couldn't keep up with the developments. ozy didn't deny your reporting. in fact, they blamed the conference call incident on samir rowe, the co-founder of ozy, going through a mental health crisis. and that's not to make jokes or light of that in any capacity. but how do you make of that explanation? >> i think it was an attempt to prevent critics from writing about it. and you know, the thing was, and i don't know. the details of his mental health. what we worry about, really, is that it was part of a pattern of deceiving investors, advertisers, the media, all sorts of people, about what was going on with that company. and although that was a particularly spectacular thing, he was on the phone call. >> i know you write in your piece, the line between hype and fraud is blurry and comes into focus in retrospect. at what point did ozy cross the line? was it the conference call that you reported on? or what do you recall as the turning point in all of this? >> you know, i'm not sure. the thing with ozy, they had this idea of what media ought to be, bipartisan, diverse, young people, having thoughtful conversations across party lines. and you know what? there's probably a reason there's not a cable network that does that. and the reason is, that americans, perhaps, sadly don't want to consume that. but who does want to consume that are billionaire investors and advertisers. and so, this pitch worked incredibly well on the people with the money. just never got them an audience. >> the crazy thing about it, you look at some of the people that attended ozyfest, they are a who's who of society in this country. and the idea that ozy wasn't everything they appeared or presented themselves to be, is something that has been talked about for a while within certain media circles. are issues like this widespread in the media industry? are you seeing this more and more with a rush to find the next media gold mine, if you will? >> i heard nobody is really watching this show. the producers are running around, trying to give you an impression that it's a real thing like "the trueman show." people say, are a lot of digital media companies like this? basically not. in any industry, there's hype and salesmen, trying -- people pushing lines. this was an order of magnitude away from that. >> ozy wasn't just faking it in the digital space. they produced an entire tv show with an a-list guests on a false claim. walk us through that a little be. >> the summer of 2020. after george floyd. a lot of people were looking for a way to make a difference. ozy called up a couple of experienced tv producers, the guy that used to run "entertainment tonight." we want to put on a show where celebrities dig into issues. it will air on a&e two weeks from now. and a month in, it's not going to air. it's kind of going on youtube. and the producers all quit. and there was a lot of -- it goes beyond optimism. >> let me ask you if i can, given your background, as someone that worked in the digital face in buzzfeed and launching that, and the pressure s like carlos watson, who was and used to work at msnbc, as an anchor, who was behind ozy, do you have sympathy for the pressure that he was under? and the mistakes he made? is that presentable? it is hard after to fathom that someone in that position would make that decision and stick with it for a long time. >> i talked to carlos a couple hours ago. and he is -- you know, feels that he did absolutely nothing wrong. and that everything he said was true. maybe tiny exceptions. but he's totally -- he totally disputes the gist to this reporting. i don't -- i can't really see into his heart. i think the idea that you tell a small lie and a bigger one and a bigger one, and you're trapped is a nightmare for anyone. >> ben smith. i want to know why i didn't get the headband treatment. on cnn, you were wearing a headband. >> have it here. i wasn't sure. you seemed very serious. you know? >> no. this is not a serious show. but not. good to talk to you. i appreciate you coming on. incredible work, as always. i tweeted out that journalism matters as a result of your reporting. thank you for bringing that to light. thank you for making time for us this sunday. you can catch "ayman" every night on friday, 7:00 eastern, and msnbc at 8:00 and sundays at 9:00. follow us on twitter and tiktok. we're going to post highlights from the show and fun stuff behind the scenes. until we meet again, good night. ♪ ♪ you've never seen anything quite like it. we've never created anything quite like it. the all-electric, all-mercedes eqs. alice loves the scent of gain so much, she wished there was a way to make it last longer. say hello to your fairy godmother alice and long-lasting gain scent beads. try spring daydream, now part of our irresistible scent collection. my hygienist cleans with a round head. so does my oral-b my hygienist personalizes my cleaning. so does my oral-b oral-b delivers the wow of a professional clean feel every day. this halloween, xfinity rewards is offering up some spooky-good perks. like the chance to win a universal parks & resorts trip to hollywood or orlando to attend halloween horror nights. or xfinity rewards members, get the inside scoop on halloween kills. just say "watch with" into your voice remote october 5th at 8pm to join a special live stream with star jamie lee curtis. a q&a with me! join for free on the xfinity app. our thanks your rewards.