two others competing forces. one is the fact that, due to the nature of american polarization, divided government, the structural advantage that republicans now, holding national elections, democrats can expect to control the white houses and both houses -- and both houses of congress maybe every ten years. like once a decade. they really get a chance to pass their agenda. so that is one pressure point. the other is that, we are already at one degree celsius of permanent global warming. we need to very rapidly cartel admissions, to avoid increasing to another half degree or two. and this is the one shot to pass a climate bill. that's something the democrats remember tried the last time they had unified power, in 2009 and ten. and it didn't have been. and guess what, things got much worse over the next ten years. and the rate at which we have the deployment eyes, has increased dramatically. so democrats have one chance, for a substantial climate package right now. where they can expect to wait another decade, which is likely way too late. that urgency, democrats are right now trying to tiptoe across a legislative type rope, with the entire biden agenda and the, future of the country, and the world in their arms. and it's looking pretty dicey up there. on the hill, the house is planning to hold a vote on one part of the biden agenda. that's the bipartisan infrastructure, bill that has some climate stuff, but nowhere near enough. progressive democrats say that they won't vote for, that unless the 3.5 trillion dollar build back better agenda bill, that's the social welfare state, that's expanded childcare, and all the climate stuff, unless that moves forward in tandem with the bipartisan bill. the problem, there are two seven knit democrats who are holding out on that reconciliation bill. democratic sinema, of arizona. she has been irritant in the process and you could say, saying she will not agree to the 3.5 trillion spending bill of nearly all the counter provisions. now she met with the white house, officials three times alone. and then again today. afterwards reporters tried to pin her down on her position on the two bills, here's all that. >> what do you say to the progressive so they're frustrated that they don't know where you are? >> i'm in the. senate >> there are progressives within the senate that are frustrated that they don't know where you are either. >> i'm like clearly right in front of the. >> that is funny. senator joe manchin in west virginia has been the other senate democrat holding up the spending bill today, he told reporters there is no chance for an agreement on it before the house is scheduled to vote on that other part of the biden agenda. the bipartisan infrastructure bill tomorrow. >> is it possible? >> no it's not possible. >> to get the fruit work by? tomorrow >> it's not possible to get any framework? >> what's possible is sitting down and have a good fight and negotiation pass the infrastructure bill. >> manchin also released a statement saying quote, when i have made clear to the democratic leaders is about spending trillions more on you and expanding governor programs, when you can't even pay for the essential social, programs like social security medicare, is the definition mission of physical insanity. >> progressives in the house seat that the spending bill has to move them forward intend on with the infrastructure bill. congresswoman privilege jayapal, the chair of the house progressive caucus responded to mention saying, without the build back better agenda bill. that the bipartisan infrastructure bill passed by the senate is dead in the water. >> he needs to either give us an offer or this whole thing is not going to happen. i can tell you that his statement is just probably created at least a bunch of more votes on the house floor against bipartisan bill. >> now pramila jayapal, is one of the key players in all of this, one of maybe five or six people who is going to determine the outcome here. i'm going to speak with her in just a few minutes. remember, the house is supposed to vote tomorrow on that bipartisan bill, that's the one that's already passed the senate. but without the support of the progressive caucus, that is not going to pass. in fact, as of now nobody is going to know what is happening tomorrow. what is happening more broadly, i don't know what's happening. joining me now democratic senator who is 100% on board with passing the intended agenda, both the 3.5 trillion dollar reconciliation package, and the bipartisan package together, senator elizabeth warren of massachusetts. you are one of 100 votes in the u.s. senate. you are very committed to this agenda intend them. maybe you understand maybe a bit better than i am. where are we right now? >> we are still working on. it i think of it this way, we've got 50 republicans who've got that they don't want any part of. this but we've got 50 democrats who are all in their own boats trying to roll in the same direction. and what we are trying to do is we are trying to get roads and bridges, we are trying to get sewers and waters, we are trying to get broadband, we're trying to get childcare, and home community based care, community college, housing help. and most of all we are trying to take a real effort to fight back against the climate crisis. and we are trying to put all of that together and moving forward. and that's a little bumpy but i tell you, i'd rather be where we are, we are rowing, we are trying to make it happen. and i think we are going to do. it >> i can tell if you are spinning me, or you are more confident than some other people. i honestly can't. i guess if i were you i would say like we are going to get there. there is. that >> why? i don't have to say that. >> because i'm saying that saying it's not going to happen isn't going to. help >> but think of it this way, you are right. i do want to happen. but i also recognize that the values of who we are as a democratic party, but also the values of who we are as a nation. are deeply tied up in this bill. you see bills that appeal to this group, or to that group, or to some people who have a specific problem. not this one. this one has it all. and we understand, the only way that it's going to come forward is if all of it goes forward. if the things that all of us have been working on have a chance to be in there and to move forward. and we've got it. we are moving that. it is the very fact that it is big, and complicated. it makes the negotiations hard. but it also means that there is more on the line, and that increases the odds that we are actually going to get this done. >> it's a bit of a theoretical point, but worth exploring here. when you think about how politicians act, when in office. i think there's a bunch of [inaudible] , they have constituents, they want to get reelected. those constituents public views, the median voter, the swing voter, the person that might hold their fate. there are local institutions, and group, and hospitals, big factories that make a certain thing, or big ad in your district, those matters. lobbyist corporate pressures, donors matter, but one thing that i think really matters, is the interval -- political ideology of the people involved. it strikes me as that is part of what's happening here, part of the holdout aren't on board with the agenda. yes they are getting pressured by big interest groups, yes there's a lot of money flowing through, yes that's part of it. but that strikes me as part of the hiccup here. what do you think about the? >> i still look at the content of what we have here. and how many folks in our caucus really want to see us provide child care? and look at it this way. if you take a look at what is happened to women, just over the last couple of years, so that today we have millions of women not in the workforce, one out of forces the problem is childcare. so if you care about women, then you care about this bill. if you care about babies, then you care about this bill. but also if you care about child care workers who are so often paid barely above poverty wages, then you care about this still, because it raises their wages. but here's the thing, you cannot like mamas, you cannot like babies, you cannot like child care workers, and you still care about this bill. because you are hearing from all of the small businesses in your home state who say they can't find workers. well they can find workers if mamas can't find childcare. this is one of those -- it's kind of like every piece that's what's broken, what we're trying to put in here helps make it by dr.. and can i have one more? thing and besides that, we've got fabulous ways to pay for. it the pay force in this actually says that billionaires are going to have to pay a fair share. that giant corporations, are going to have to pay a fair share. and that we are going to put enough money into the irs directed towards going after this billionaire and giant corporation tax sheets, and make them pay what they owe. that is how we pay for this, by getting more fairness into the system. so, there's a lot to love here. a lot of the house progressives, but in they're saying we love this. bill we just want to see the whole thing go forward. just like we all agreed. on >> final question for you, which is about -- i covered the 2009 2010 period on the hill. as a washing net of i watch them played on, that there were three very big bills, there was the aca on health care, there was don friends financial reform, and there was lax and markey which was the kind. bill democrats went two for three. they got two of those across the finish line. the one that didn't finish was the client. 1:10 years plus with no significant climate change. does everyone over there understand the urgency here, that this isn't like urgency. so this is something that you're only gonna get one shot maybe every decade. >> in fact i think it's even worse than that. i think that every time the scientists go back and take another look at the date, or run the numbers again. they come back to us and say that the problem is worse than we thought. and they have less time than we thought. the good thing about this in packed big package, is how many different ways we attack the climate crisis, everything from changing the power grids. so power is all green wind and sold lure, to moving to getting rid of diesel fire and public buses, and train engines, and replacing them all with electric. all the way to a bigger investment in research. because we recognize that if we do everything in this package, it is still not enough. we also need to double down on the research into this, and figure out how to move faster in this crisis. >> senator elizabeth warren, thank you very much, i guess i sort of chaired by your diplomatic equanimity this evening. so thank you very much we'll talk soon. >> good to see. you >> don't go anywhere i will talk with one of the key players in the negotiation as chair of the progressive caucus congresswomen pramila jayapal, right after this. cadillac is go if you want to be bold, you have to go off - script. experience the all-electric cadillac lyric. woo! you are busy... working, parenting, problem solving. if you want to be bold, you have to go off - script. at new chapter vitamins we've been busy too... innovating, sourcing organic ingredients, testing them and fermenting. fermenting? yeah like kombucha or yogurt. and we formulate everything so your body can really truly absorb the natural goodness. that's what we do, so you can do you. new chapter wellness, well done. >> given everything that's been going on in congress, a little jarring to see members gathered tonight for the traditional bipartisan congressional baseball game. president biden even swung by to watch a few innings and cheerful that democrats. it all looks very doable, that bear in mind the republican team roster includes people like marjorie taylor greene, who made threatening comments and harassed democratic members. as she's on the same team as congressman beau brooks who told the crowd on january 6th, that it was a day for patriots to start kicking -- shortly before insurrectionist broke the capital and starting china chanting hang mike pence, welcome cussing various police officers. is that kind of weird for democratic lawmakers to have a friendly baseball game with those folks? and addition to that weirdness the game is happening on the eve of the big house vote for president biden's agenda. the chair of the progressive caucus, congress when pramila jayapal saying, in a statement quote, progressive rubble for both bills, the majority of our members will only vote for the infrastructure bill after the presidents visionary build back better act passes. and congresswoman jayapal joins me now. okay, you and the progressive caucus have been pretty clear on this from day one. and i just want -- i'm not sure people are tracking all this, which is fine. i don't think it matters that much. what matters is the outcome. why though, explain your position right now? there is a bill to pass the senate. first of all, can we talk about the content of that bill and your caucuses views just over the content of it. before we get to process. before we get to the game theory prisoners dilemma that is set up. >> yes, absolutely. and great to see you, chris. so, five months ago yesterday, that president made that journey from the white house to capitol hill, and he laid out his build back better agenda. and we all got up and cheered. i was in the chamber that night. we all got up and cheered for it, because it was the agenda that we ran on, that he put forward as president, and that we said we would deliver to his desk. then it got split into two bills. one bill is this infrastructure bill that is a much narrower, smaller piece, that is about what they're calling hard infrastructure. roads and bridges primarily. but there are a lot of people who actually believe that some of the provisions in that bill are going to be negative for the carbon emissions affect, and they're actually going to hurt us on climate change. now, some people say it's got the good, the bad and the missing. right? it's too small, it doesn't do enough, and it's got some bad stuff. but yet, there is some good stuff in there. we all need roads and bridges and you know, we want to get all that. they took all of the really important stuff and they put it in this much bigger build back better act. now, what does that have in it? that has childcare. it has taking on climate change with real standards that would bring down emissions and get us to the goals that the president has laid out. it has housing to house the house list. it has health care, medicare expansion among other things. >> go ahead. oh, i just lost you. >> can you hiller hear me there? >> i got to, your back. >> okay. so, hopefully you heard me talk about everything. >> yes, you got to medicare. i'm glad that we're recreating the daily nightmare experience of everyone's lives in the last year and a half, here are not tv show. but yes, i did hear you get to medicare. >> okay, great. so, now here's the two bills. one is the small bill and it's bipartisan. it's the easiest stuff to do. and then there's another bill that has the majority of the democratic agenda in their. they took five months to negotiate that bill -- that infrastructure bill, that smaller bill. and now we need to get this build back better agenda done. so, the only way that that bipartisan bill is going to pass the senate is because 11 progressive senators, including the one that you just had on, elizabeth warren, voted for the bipartisan bill under the promise and commitment that if they passed that bill in the senate, that the house would force finish the reconciliation bill, and then, once that's voted on, then we would pass the bipartisan bill. that was the position that the progressive caucus took almost three and a half months ago, because many of our members frankly, if they just had to vote on the bipartisan bill, don't think it's a very good bill. it was negotiated by very small group of senators. we were never consulted on a. we don't think it does enough. and there are a lot of people that don't want to vote for. but because we're all adults in the room and we all play on the team for the democratic party, we said every single one of our progressive members would vote for that bipartisan if a structure bill as long as they stuck to the promise of passing the reconciliation bill first. the build back better act first. and then suddenly, out of nowhere, chris, in comes a few people, 4% of all of the democrats in the house and the senate, and they said, we're not going to stick to the original agreement. we're just going to pass the infrastructure bill and then will see what happens. infras>> well, progressive saidt too fast. we are going to make sure we deliver the integrity of the presidency can agenda. think it's guess what? 96% of democrats in the house and senate agree that that is the right thing to do. the president agrees. 70% of the american people agree. and we need to deliver that transformative bill. >> all right, so i'm with you on all that. i get that. okay. a don't think you're wrong on anything you said there actually, in terms of the recent politics. it is the case. there is for the tremendous democratic princesses for this. there's 40 votes in the senate, in the house. president biden wants to sign. right? but the problem is, there's 48, you need 50. right? that's the issue. and i think -- i've heard what you've been saying, so, the question is, how to get to 50? right? and i just want to ask this question, which is do you think that saying we're not going to vote for this bipartisan infrastructure bill is tangibly improving the prospects of getting to 50? do you see what i'm saying? because i'm just not clear that it is. and again, i think people understand where i'm coming from. i'm rooting for you guys, basically. i mean, i support that legislation. i think it's good. i'd vote for in congress. the question is, what is it doing actually at a time when alexandria question cortez says, trust is needed. everyone needs to get together. is the we're not going to vote for this thing, what work is it doing? is it counterproductive? >> well, let's just be clear on who did what first. that's kind of important here. because the commitment was that the reconciliation bill would pass first, and then all the sudden that was change. so, here's what i'm past trust. because there were things that were promised that it happened. and frankly, chris, that's happened a lot. it happened in the ac fight, it's happened throughout were progressives often get rolled. but in this particular case, this is the presidents agenda. it's about some crazy left wing agenda. it is actually the president's agenda. so, if we were to pass the bipartisan bill, i would say to people across the country, you saw perhaps joe manchin's statement today on how far he is from the build back better agenda, we are at the end of september. nothing happens on capitol hill of any importance that isn't past once you get to see, november. certainly nothing happens next year, because it's an election year. so, the reality of the situation is, if we passed the bipartisan bill, all of a sudden we essentially delay the reconciliation bill, and as rachel maddow said the other night, deadly's death on capitol hill. so, that is the decision that we had to take and we took it with seriousness and purpose. that we promised voters across the country to deliver on these important things. and we are not going to leave them behind, women, communities suffering from climate change. we are not going to leave behind immigrants. we are not going to leave behind all of these groups that actually were the ones who came out and delivered for us, because a problem in american democracy today is that people have lost faith in us. in government. that we actually will fight for the working people, and not just do what's easy. but actually fight to give transformative change and opportunity to people across this country. so, that's what we're going to do and i believe it actually will force people back to the negotiating table and make sure that we deliver both of these bills. >> all right, so this vote is later tomorrow. pelosi's not gonna bring it to the floor. its way to go down. but very eventful, what's, 16 hours ahead of us? congresswoman pramila jayapal come back again and keep us updated on this. i appreciate. >> thank you, chris. >> all right, there's even more breaking news tonight out of congress. we have brand-new subpoenas. a whole crop of them from the january six committee that give an interesting window into where this investigation is headed, what we know. after this. after this ♪ i see trees of green ♪ ♪ red roses too ♪ ♪ i see them bloom for me and you ♪ (music) ♪ so i think to myself ♪ ♪ oh what a wonderful world ♪ just a little before we came on air, we got a second round of sticky notes from the house committee investigating january six. they have been issued for 11 trump associates evolved in the events and the rallies leading up to the insurrection, including that infamous rally where donald trump brought up the supporters and invited them down to the capital right before they storm the capital. a committee is seeking documents and testimony from nearly a dozen people from the trump campaign. as well as the pro trump group, women for america first, which organized the january 6th rally. lawmakers also materials dealing with the planning, funding and, participation in the events and bus tours, social media activities of associated and entities, and communications and involvement of trump administration officials and lawmakers. one of the subpoenas was issued to katrina pierson. she's the national spokesperson for the trump 2016 campaign the first time they won. and the committee said she was in contact with the white house and the events and rallies perceiving the election 2021. specifically according to the subpoena issue to katrina, pierson then trump met himself in the oval office on january 4th. that's betty wood or swan, where she just reported from the fallout from the january 6th insurrection. and she joins me. now betsy woodruff swan, there's 11 folks that got these. this is the second launch of subpoenas. how would you characterize this group? what does it say about where the investigation is headed? >> this is the january 6th a lips rally crew. it is the people who ran the stop the steal event that the president spoke out. and from which protesters move to the capital and attacked the capital. these people are the connective tissue between trump himself, and the crowd that subsequently had numerous members break into the capital. and participate in that insurrection. it's to stop this accrue, and jokingly thinking of them as the steel stoppers. the wide variety of different parts of the conservative and far-right media ecosystem. some folks are very high profile. katrina pierson is probably the biggest name on this. this she was the top spokesperson for trump's first presidential. campaign and then there's some interesting inclusions, one person who received a subpoena, is the head of a company called our and as protective services. a company i was not familiar with. i follow the stuff closely with the subpoena said that his company indicates to be somehow providing security at the january 6th rally. so i'll be very interested to see what they specifically ask that person if they're cures of any of his workers might've overheard stuff, in the green. room that we otherwise might not have known. about >> one of the other names which i was known was maggie mulvaney. she is the knees of mick mulvaney. this is read here from the subpoena here, according to those working with you and women with american first to organize the january six, raleigh communicated with president trump and white house officials including chief of staff, and others about the realities and other events to coincide with certification of the 2020 electoral college results. i follow this very closely to, and i had not known she was a character in this. >> it's a lot of characters to stay on top of and that's one of the things that is making the select committee investigation so interesting. maggie, it is also a person by the name with a lincoln profile that trucks with her career, that is now listed as a republican congressional staffer. it seems safe to surmise that we're talking about the same person in the legislative database as it shows there's a republican in the staff, named maggie. i think that these are the same person. if not it would be pretty notable that congress as it should use a subpoena to somebody who works for congress. that is something that we're keeping an eye, on running up running down and reaching out to the office that employees the name maggie. >> here's the key factual question that i don't think it's answered and this points to. we know that a have been, and then be happen. it was the rally. and that was organized by the a bunch of groups on a bunch of groups were brought to the capital, and the president went to spoke to. them we know that the president said go down to the capitol, because we haven't monte being. that and then we have a bunch of those people went down to the capital, i'm broke into the capital, and did things like hanging and assault cops. >> when they were planning the rally, was that the plan? was it the plan for those events to flow and precisely that order? and i don't think that's factually answered. but it strikes me as getting at the rally organizers as part of getting to the bottom of that. >> no question. the obvious question, then i'm sure the select committee would ask. what did you think what's going to happen? what did these people expect was going to step two three four after you bring a massive group of people into d.c.. you get them really robbed up with speeches that are incredibly in cindy erie. and then you say let's go to the capital. because the fact is, these people are not working towards a political solution for the grievances that they had. they were trying to use these heavy-handed and frankly as they became illegal tactics, to stop a lawful process from playing. up and so the question is, where people thinking about the fact that these tactics were the tactics that they were? were they thinking about? were they talking about? it what did they expect to happen? was there any conversation whatsoever among? that obvious questions that i hope we get. answer >> yes and it's a really big sort of black box right now, and i do want to enter that as i know you do. two betsy woodruff swan, think you very much. >> this week we released a new episode of my podcast why is this happening, in an author al press who is a phenomenal writer and journalist, talks about who carries out some of the society's most ethically troubling work. or as he puts it who sleeps well at night, and who doesn't. it's a fascinating exploration of the types of jobs that we don't tend to, or want to think about, and why. i hope you check it out. up next despite the fact of cries and tyranny and mass resignation new evidence that the vaccine requirements. work they work. we will show you next. next. it's becoming more and more clear every day that vaccine mandates are working in this country to encourage the minority of people, small minority and shrinking to get the shot. but many of those on the right, like republican governor ron the sanders are crying tyranny and still looking for any excuse to rail against covid safety measures. the sentence who seat and suffered one of the most brutal outbreaks in the u.s., has recently found a new bogeyman to scare americans into trying to keep themselves healthy and alive. i have to say, this one took me a little by surprise. >> you guys know what's going on in australia right now, they are enforcing after a year and a half, they are still enforcing lockdowns by the military. and that's not a free country. it's not every country out. all in fact i wonder why we would still have the same thing no matter the relations when they're doing that, i mean this is australia three years in china, -- the fact that it's even a question tells us that something has gone dramatically off the rails. >> actually i know this one, it is for your than china at this point. it's not really a question. first of all, china has literal internment camps. or they have forcibly obtain up to 1 million people solely because of their religion and ethnicity. according to the united nations. but ron desantis, is railing against this democratic country of australia, our allies, because he is thrown out the red meat, catering to a certain anti-public health, and tied doctor fauci on the. right and that has decided that australia is the dystopian covid tierney, that democrats want to bring to the u.s.. now, let me say this, there is a little speck of kernel of truth. there australia has been way stricter about how they have handled covid than anywhere in this country from the very beginning. starting in march of last, year they close their borders to everyone but citizens and residents. anyone allowed to return to their country from elsewhere, had to spend two weeks in lockdown in a hotel. and i mean alone in a room, with no visitors, security guards in the hallways, and all meals brought to your door, kind of lockdown. domestic travel restrictions were in, place meaning you couldn't go from one place to another. nearly all businesses were closed. and australians were required to stay home, except for essential purposes. punishable by fines, or even jail time. a 21 year old man in new south wales, was fined $1,000 when he was spotted eating a kebab on a bench in new castle, after ignoring police. a 32-year-old and a 27-year-old man were fine for sitting in their car without a reasonable excuse not to be at home. and then listen to joe first nicking out to a hotel to visit his girlfriend, breaking his mandatory 14-day quarantine after he flew from the eastern side of the country, to the west. now here on the u.s., we never had anything close to that. honestly there was no real enforcement of any of the so-called lockdown, there were in terms of closing the businesses. but even in the midst of the worst case of the pandemic, you could just get in your car and drive across several state lines to see your loved ones if you wanted to. no one would stop you. heck, if you showed up at the airport, at jfk in new york city, no one would check where you are going, or what you were doing. just come on. but of course, australia also had a lot more success, suppressing the virus last year than we did. this is what sydney looked like last winter. while we were suffering from the worst wave of the pandemic, australians were back in, restaurants and bars, and shops. they had essentially eliminated covid from their island continent. and then the delta variant hit the summer, and much of australia plunge back into severe lockdown. >> all moles half of australia's back in lockdown, as multiple covid outbreaks roll across the country. queensland's has become the latest state to impose stay-at-home orders on 4 million residents. nearly 6 million people in sydney, and it's surrounding regions are in the midst of a two-week lockdown, after the delta strain led to 114 nine cases. the streets of sydney, are almost deserted. now new covid outbreaks forcing many more australians into lockdown in the last year. internal state borders have been shut, while international travels have been more or less banned for well over a year. >> you heard that part where she said the lockdowns were precipitated by 139 new cases? more than 5 million people in sydney have now been in lockdown for more than two months. the border still close. the australian citizen still need permission to leave or enter their own country. this year authorities announced that sydney will finally start coming out of lockdown next month. the vaccination rates hit 70% and above. now australia has been a bit slow on vaccinations. but get this. they will not likely pass us in the u.s. very shortly. again they have been using extremely course of messes against the virus. we more course event heavy-handed that anything that's been deployed in any state or locality in the u.s., democrat or republican, or whatever. so on that point, florida governor ron desantis isn't wrong. australia's lockdown is in fact highlights that all the complaining on the, right delivery or die, or revolution cost, reading or people yelling at school boards for mask, or screaming we know where you live. our response has been pretty light touched. in fact it makes all of this foam around tyranny sound a bit ridiculous. ron desantis it is also correct, that australia chose a different path than florida. for anyone else in the u.s.. and yes, certain free thumbs have been propelled. there but it's worth asking what kind of results have gotten? have they actually done against covid? well it turns out australia has roughly the same population as florida. so that makes makes for useful comes person. florida has about 21 and a half million people. australia has nearly 26 million people. and over the entire course of this pandemic. since last march. 1256 people died from covid in australia. florida surpassed the entire pandemic death toll of australia in just one week. at the height of the delta. outbreak over the same period of time florida had 54,000 deaths. now adjusted to population. that would be more than 64,000 deaths in australia. it is not crazy to say that there are 63,000 aussies. with friends and families and lies and dreams, just like you and. we engaged in all sorts of social and can spiritual, and economic activity. folks who are alive today, walking around right now, who would not be if they lived in florida. who would be dead. and that's just one state. our countries lost nearly 700,000 people. and yes, there are some trade-offs at the extreme, from the freedom and public health message, they are unavoidably, and yes they are the job to policy makers to make those difficult calls, and decide between those two. extremes informed by the science. but it is also a case that for all the hysterical whining, whining about tyranny. the biden administration has been, balancing those imperatives pretty. well just look at their breaking in policy, this is the one that republicans are so up in arms about, they turned into fundraising gold mines, and a candidate for seven is comparing it to the literal gust up. it is a vaccine requirement for health care workers, a vaccine requirement for federal workers, and a vaccine requirement for large employers over 100 people which you get helped out of by taking a test a week. again compare that to getting fine if you leave your house for a kebab, arrested if you break quarantine to visit your girlfriend. this is the balance of the biden administration has chosen between the house and liberty. and guess what it's working. we're getting evidence in places that have already started implicating vaccine mandates, and they're showing that relatively light coercion it shows result. united airlines denounced this week that less than 1% of their 67,000 workforce did not comply with their mandate. trinity health, one of the first major hospital change to announce a vaccine mandate, said the percentage of its vaccinated staff has increased from 75% to 94%. since tyson foods announced a vaccine mandate last month, its vaccination rate has gone from 50%, oh my lord, to 80% with the deadline still more than a month away. we are never going to get back the people we've lost. the 700,000 lives we've lost. that's what's so brutal and in raging with the policies that america has, made all those we cannot undo, them they are permanent. we can act and smart ways, informed by our liberty, and our freedom, and our traditions to protect other people. to protect our fellow americans from meeting the same fate. and right now, that is what the biden administration is doing. ministration is doing. i've been telling everyone... the secret to great teeth is having healthy gums. crest advanced gum restore. detoxifies below the gumline... and restores by helping heal gums in as little as 7 days. kathleen's a billion came to crest. the #1 toothpaste brand in america. national attention nearly 20 years ago as a democratic governor of a very red state chances. president obama within a pointer to be this for secretary of health, she was sworn in amidst the swine flu outbreak of 2009. so the talk about the balance between liberty and the president by, this and the right wing to president biden's requirements. kathleen has seen a thing or two and happy to be joined by her now. i want to start on this first point which is that policy in all these cases are amount to judgment calls made by elective representatives in vested with democratic authorities by the people. that can't just be the science. they're built on the science, but there are trade-offs, and there are calls that policy makers are going tough to. make in all of the situations. >> you bet chris. first it's good to be with you, and you're absolutely right. but i think that fundamental job, that any elective official particularly somebody in the executive branch agency, a governor, a president, amir, look set is safety and security of the constituents. here she serves, that is primary. then the economy, then other things, but protecting the people who you are elected to serve is really fundamental. and you use all the resources possible. i think what president biden has done is balance between what the science says and trying to juggle encourage making the fall of the science. and when that turned out not to be as effective as any turn to harden mandate, but what people don't have a right to do is, make other people sick. put out of their people in jeopardy. risk other peoples lives. risk children's lives. so i think that the president has been walking a line of balancing science and safety and security in every step along the way. hoping that the vast majority of the american public would follow that lead. >> i mean you even see in this employers over 100 employee policy. it is done through osha, it very well established authorities since it makes sense since it is a workplace safety issue if ever there was one, but also that there is this option, this idea, that you are going to make me put something in my body. in this case people can go get tested once a. week is that a pain? yes. but they have to think that there's a lot of things that people it shows a degree to which policy makers in this country broadly, and up to the white house including the president are really thinking about this question about coercion. this question about choice. this question about americas fidelity to its church liberty and freedom. >> well i think you are right. and to me it's a lot like secondhand smoke. you have a right to be a smoker. the science is very clear what's milken will do to you. what cancer will be caused. what kind of health conditions. you are a right, when you don't have a right to do is smoke next to my desk. to blow smoke on to me. to blow smoke on my children to. to force me to live in a housing facility where i am subjective to smoke. that is a line that we finally have put on this country, that delineates what you're in to fischel rights, are and when you have a right to do to make me sick, and make my kids sick. so i think we are looking at the very situation in osha, you are absolutely right. because all of these provided guidance and mandates about safety in a workplace. and this is not a safe workplace if i am working side by side with somebody who refuses to be vaccinated. who is not wearing a mask, who is not tested, that would make me scared, and that would not acceptable. >> i'm glad that you brought up smoking, because i think it's of really good historical precedent analogy. and actually just looking at the statistics today. we are getting into all-time lows in the percentage of americans of smoking, we are getting to all-time lows of the number of individual consumed a year. an all-time's low of teen smoking. all this is just a huge triumph of public health. but it was a public of, litigation, litigation, persuasion, social shaming, a league consensus, all the things that were thrown at the vaccine problem in some ways now, and spin a huge success. and you would have to be -- there were people that complain every, sets and you have to be a nihilistic sociopath, to say that i wish we could go back to everybody to lighten up on plays. obviously it's better for not doing that. >> you bet i remember in the days that i'm old enough to remember when the non smoking, or the smoking section of the plane was in the back of the plane. and all they did was puff their smoke and he came forward. and we said oh this is a brilliant strategy. but people suggesting that restaurants had non smoking in the restaurants, nobody would go out to eat anymore. if barr's win in a loss, milking nobody would drink anymore. none of that has passed. and actually we have a whole lot of people, a lot of today who would be dead, if they not just chose not to smoke themselves, but were subjected to second and. smoking >> quickly here's the polling for ron desantis, and greg abbott who took a very similar approach. and they got a very similar result. florida had a really bad outbreak one of the worse, and we have seen a decline in their approval ratings. since delta hit, but it is also amazing to me how that on the scale that we are dealing with doesn't seem to have the political impact that if you would ask me a year or two ago i would've said. >> well unfortunately chris i think we are seeing a situation where i know a lot of people, i hear it every day, where people look at those deaths, statistics which are horrifying almost 700,000 of our fellow americans have died. and they don't believe it. this is part of big news. so they can see it more family members, your child, your relatives, your grandfather, your whatever. people are saying -- people are making those up. doctors are nurses are making them, up their inflating the numbers. and that just unfortunate ongoing part of this. but for a governor of the state to say that it is okay, to lose as many people every day as australia has lost in the entire pandemic, shame on him. shame on him. >> kathleen sebelius, it's always good to get a time to talk to. you thank you so much for your time tonight. >> nice to talk to. you >> that is all on the all in, tonight now it's for you rachel. >> good evening chris thank you so. much and thank you at home to join you here tonight there's a lot going on tonight we got 1 million things to get to this hour. on tonight we're going to be speaking with congresswoman alexandria ocasio-cortez, she is going to be here live with us tonight in just a few moments. it is of course just over 24 hours now until we are facing an absolute lee pointless federal government shutdown tomorrow at i say that it is absolutely pointless and i mean it in a technical sense. previous government shutdowns were all dumb. but they were at least nominally for a reason. there was some dispute, a policy matter which the two parties couldn't agree upon. and a shutdown ensued until they could figure it out. in this case, i say this is a pointless shutdown that we're facing tomorrow night because although republicans in the senate are blocking the legislation that would keep the federal government from shutting down, they're not doing so for any particular reason. they're not even really bothering to say why they're doing it. they're only doing it because they can. so we will talk with

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