both chambers. and the nation's top military commanders are on capitol hill for a second day. the house's turn and republicans are seizing on disagreements between the white house and the military on the decision to withdraw and the timing of it and the chaos that ensued. welcome to "meet the press daily" i'm chuck todd and happy hump day to you. the president and democrats have something of a five alarm political fire on their hands which means they're looking to the leader of their party, the president for help. but so far, it hasn't come at least publicly. he hasn't said what he wants the party to do. the president did cancel his trip to chicago today to stay in washington where his party is fractured and seems to be fracturing even more. and it's unclear if he can save this agenda. folks, if the biden agenda collapses democrats everywhere will feel it, centrist, you name it. amid a flurry of meetings at the capitol hill and white house, negotiators on capitol hill still don't even have a firm grasp on what the size of this big reconciliation package will be. manchin and sinema still haven't said what price tag they're willing to support. speculation is about $2.5 trillion. is that where they are? and it bears repeating that the president has not said publicly how big he wants it to be either. we're not the only ones wondering where the president is. here's democratic congresswoman debbie dingle. >> they're trying to figure out the right thing to do. they need to know exactly where the president stands and what the president wants to do and they're getting mixed signals depending who you talk to and what is it he wants to do and his priorities. people are told you're in or have to be with the president. what is it the president wants? nobody can even answer that question. >> that is, should be an alarming statement to folks in the west wing when debbie dingell is saying that out loud. means progressives are going to vote down the president's infrastructure bill which is slated for a house bill tomorrow. speaker pelosi tried to dance around all these disagreements when she spoke about the lack of clarity facing her caucus. >> it's not about a dollar amount. the dollar amount, as the president said, is zero. this bill will be paid for. it is what are the values that we share and have we prioritized them and that is, that is the place we will go. i had calmness because i have confidence in our house democrats. they care about america's working family. >> speaking pelosi and progressives are still threatening to block this bill by the end of today. can you still move forward with the vote tomorrow? >> well, we take it one step at a time. >> answer to that is maybe not. meanwhile, what the biden agenda in peril and the president's political standing is in a state of steady decline. his approval ratings in poll after poll continue to fall. they drop under to the high 30s and battleground north carolina. they're in the low 30s in light red texas. these are two states seen as key bellwethers for democrats everywhere. they tell you a little something. we've seen the bad polls in iowa. so, again, these states where democrats need independent voters in particular, those truly center, center voters, they are souring on the president in a big way right now. so, for democrats outside of washington, the state of talks in washington, well, they look like a foolish exercise. as terry mcauliffe said to me last night in response to a question about the reconciliation package at the governor's debate. >> here's my message to congress. i'm sick and tired of all of them. they have to stop their chitty chat up there and time for them to pass it. let's get this infrastructure bill passed for america. >> meanwhile, there's a government shutdown to avoid tomorrow. that looks like they're going to do. and then, of course, the debt ceiling. that expires in about 20 days. they have a path out of it, the question is, will anybody allow that path to be taken, particularly republicans. because amid all the republican changes and indifference on the issue, senate majority leader chuck schumer this morning said the debt limit cannot be raised in time via reconciliation. interesting. bottom line a lot of turmoil on capitol hill and among democrats which shines the spotlight that much brighter on the leader of the party, president joseph biden. so, joining me now with the latest we have kelly o'donnell from the white house and, kelly, i want to start with you because to me this is now all on the white house's lap. it's my understanding they seem to be not, they don't act like they're in some sort of sense of urgency about tomorrow's vote. it seems as if they are more than willing to see that postponed while they try to land the bigger prize here with kyrsten sinema. >> a number of progressives which leeann can detail is just too large a number to try to overcome without getting something that can try to ease those concerns about the larger package. for the president who portrayed and identified himself and sold himself to the country as someone who could make bipartisan deals, perhaps the surprise in that is how difficult it is to work within his own party to get what is a diverse and at times desperate ends of the political spectrum within the democratic party to come together. i had, you were reading my mind when you played the clip from debbie dingell because she is a long time democrat speaking truth to the white house about wanting to see more from the president personally. what we've been told is the president who was in the senate for 36 years doesn't want to tell lawmakers what to do. not making specific demands. and, yet, frank, honest conversation. so, we have not been able to get a real window into what these conversations are like. what could be offered. i asked the press secretary what leverage does the president have with democrats? what good political or substantive could he offer to try to bring sides together. one of the great challenges is the very nature of the disagreement between a joe manchin and a kyrsten sinemas the cold state of west virginia and manchin's concerns about entitlement. those are not easy divides to bridge. there aren't simple answers or it already would have been resolved. then the ability to allow this to get to a point where they have a stack of crises with government shut down and debt limit. those are real perilous problems. the fact that the president took action by deferring his chicago trip. but we're not seeing him yet today. will we? and while he's working the phones and doing that behind the scenes work, a lot of engagement as the white house likes to say. we don't know yet what the president's own defining terms are. the speaker is trying to get it off the subject of the overall cost and the cost is a big part of what lawmakers and the public want to know more about. chuck? >> right. because what it costs, if it is going to be net zero, that has to do with a lot of taxes which i also think is a kyrsten sinema line that she doesn't want to cross too much. leeann, i'm curious. i find this to be shocking but i'm curious if you can confirm this. so, you have, when you're looking at the bipartisan infrastructure bill tomorrow, you have, what i understand, two whip operations whipping against the bill. the republicans are whipping against it and progressives are whipping against it. but here's what i can't believe i've heard. the white house is not whipping for it. are they about to let this go, their conceiting defeat to the progressives here? >> i don't know if anything has changed but clyborn said that he hadn't started whipping yet and i asked him when that was going to happen and he said i'll know the moment and it's not the right moment just yet. so, i'm not sure what the thinking is behind that and the frustration with president biden is pretty incredible up here. i'm hearing that from representative dingell said earlier this morning that you played. i'm hearing that from other members, as well. they need some clarity about what he wants. they need him to crack down on senator simema and manchin and pass that on to house democrats and the frustration among house democrats with senators manchin and sinema is also growing. they don't understand how two people can put them in this situation and as far as the bipartisan bill is concerned, that's where all the leverage is. senators manchin and sinema have a lot at stake here. they negotiated that bill. they took the lead on it. this is their legislative victory. they don't want that to fail. so it's not just the progressives that have the reconciliation bill that is problematic in passing at this point. it's the bipartisan bill, as well. and how to get past this and move through this especially in the next 24 hours where speaker pelosi says that she is still planning to have this vote, i'm a little skeptical about that. >> yeah, me, too. >> but the panic, the feeling of panic and anxiousness up here is real. and more people i talk to say speaker pelosi, of course, is masterful at her job. but they have never seen a predicament like this and no one knows how they're going to get past it, especially since they're just 24 hours away of trying to pass one of president biden's key agenda items. >> leigh ann it looks like, i tell you, looks like one of the cases. speaker pelosi doesn't know how this is going to end. very quickly, kelly o'donnell. i know we're not at the end of this because we have yet to have the meeting that includes biden, manchin, sinema -- >> all in one room. >> the fact that they're not in the same room. the fact that we have, you know, it's pretty clear to me. we don't get to the end until that meeting happens and my goodness, they can't even get sinema to come to the white house. they have to go to her. what does that tell you? >> that body language is important because if president biden is the closer, the deal should be closed here and not down the street. at some point the president has to say for your president, for your party, for the good of the country, i need you now. he's apparently not at that point yet and does not feel the answer would be a yes. the fact that staffers from the white house are working with kyrsten sinema on her turf does not feel like the end of the road yet. this is a real test for the biden presidency. i suspect we'll be talking about this years from now, chuck, as a critical couple of days to define the success or failure, failure is too strong of a word. set back for this president. it is really about his identity politically and key agenda items and at a time when he still has control of house, senate and white house. after the midterms who knows what that picture will look like. >> yeah, i don't know how you explain failure. that's the problem. i think you're right not to use the word because that's -- >> too strong yet. >> that phrase is a bit cliche but failure is not an option because if they do fail. thank you both. joining us now congresswoman and one of the house members who met with president biden last week. congresswoman, let me start with what we heard from debbie dingell this morning. how many members of congress have that same feeling but haven't expressed it so starkly as her. which is, mr. president, tell us what you want. we've got your back, we just have to know what we got. >> i think, actually, an important role that all members of congress can play which is also to say what they want. the president in our meeting last week was very clear. he said tell me what you want and tell me what your priorities are. i think as a new democrat coalition we've been clear on our priorities of expanding the child tax cret and keeping the aca premiums and address medicaid coverage gap and have strong legislation on climate. i think it's important for everyone in the house and the senate to be clear what their top priorities are. because the talk has been about a number but really underneath that number are policies that impact the american people. we want to make sure there are strong policies to help our communities. to do that, we have to talk about what those policies are. people might spend a little bit more if we're doing a great job on a policy side or a little less. the policy has to drive it and i feel like there hasn't been enough discussion on all sides and definitely for members of congress about what their policy priorities are to bring us together and get a bill passed. >> i think, congresswoman, you're right. that is part of the problem. i think people generally agree with the goals but it is the specifics and i guess when you hear the words priorities, it also means what has to be in it and what doesn't. you know, are you seeing a package seeing everything they are trying to do but maybe trims the sales by having means testing, for instance. is that a better avenue than maybe cutting out a priority or two. what is your preference as -- we know the size of this bill is going down. how to trim it. what is your preference? >> i've always been clear. i think we need to pick a few things and make sure we do them very well. those are the things that have impacted our communities. if we do things for a year and have a cliff and then congress has to come back and renew it, that creates a lot of uncertainty for families because they wonder what is going to happen a year or two years from now. so i actually think we have to pick important programs that help families like the child tax credit is helping families already today. and provide that long-term certainty that durability. yes, that means making choices and that's why people have to be very clear what is important. but that's also what is going to resonate with folks at home. you know, if you say you're doing everything and you give everything $10, you haven't really had an impact. if you tell them what we're doing, how it's going to help them, that's what folks are going to remember and then we will keep moving forward to continue to address ongoing issues. but we have to be clear and i think members of congress need to be clear what their priorities are in the house and the senate. >> tomorrow's vote, there seems to be more people actively trying to get votes against the bipartisan deal than for it. at this point, do you expect an actual vote on this bill tomorrow? >> i think the magic number is 218. we need to make sure that when we have a vote, we have 218 votes. i know that's something that the speaker and others in house leadership are looking at because it's important. people, we have all pretty much said that they want to do both bills. they want to pass an infrastructure bill. they want to pass a strong bill, a better reconciliation bill. we need to do both. but the only way we make an impact is when we get a bill through the house and we get a bill through the senate and get it on the president's desk and we need to get the bills on the president's desk as soon as possible. the focus needs to be on how we get folks together to have those votes on those bills to move them forward. >> do you think this has been overlength? i mean, this bipartisan deal the bill is written, the bill is done. shouldn't that have been signed already? has there been this decision to link it, has that actually caused more problems than it's solving? >> well, i think that it has created some division in terms of folks saying which one you have to do first and what happens in what order. i think we need to do both. i think they're a strong policy. we need to do both because it has incredible impact in our communities. and if there's one thing in my purple district that i hear from folks is they want to see governance works. getting bills through and getting them to the desk and seeing them sign under to law. talking about what we might do doesn't help. what really helps folks is what we've done. and that's why getting the infrastructure bill done and getting reconciliation done are so important. >> well, that brings me actually to debt ceiling and the government shutdown. look, republicans are just trying to gum up the works, right. we know that. they're not, they don't have the majority and they're trying to make this as painful as possible for the majority. do you think to your constituents, do you think it's a waste of time to try to do these, to show, hey, look at how the republicans are or do what you have to do to keep government going. how much do you have to show and tell this because it makes it look like congress is even more dysfunctional. >> i think we understand the responsibility we have to govern. and republicans are playing politics with the credit of the united states. we've already seen it impact the uncertainty has caused. they are putting politics first. and we absolutely put the country first. that means we have to make sure that we address the debt ceiling. republicans have even said that they're okay with raising the debt ceiling, they just don't want to vote for it. it's about gamesmanship but the consequences of putting the country at risk, that's incredibly unacceptable. and the american people should see that as unacceptable, too. that cynicism has an impact on families and on businesses across the country and so we're going to do the right thing and continue to move forward. but it's terrible that we don't have folks on the other side of the aisle who understand that their first obligation is to put the interests of the country first. >> and that cynicism is what drives people away from even participating in the process. congresswoman suzan i apologize for mispronouncing your name on the introduction. i have done that a few times. my apologies to you. thank you for coming on and sharing your perspective. >> thank you. up next, we'll head to the other side of the capitol where the top progressive senator in california these days is urging house members to vote against the bipartisan infrastructure bill. democrats appear to be on the verge of averting one funding crisis but the bigger one still remains. how are they going to raise the debt limit? you're watching "meet the press daily." l only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ before we talk about tax-smart investing, what's new? -well, audrey's expecting... -twins! grandparents! we want to put money aside for them, so...change in plans. alright, let's see what we can adjust. ♪♪ we'd be closer to the twins. change in plans. okay. mom, are you painting again? you could sell these. lemme guess, change in plans? at fidelity, a change in plans is always part of the plan. want your clothes to smell freshly washed all day without heavy perfumes? lemme guess, change in plans? try new downy light in-wash scent beads. it has long-lasting light scent, no heavy perfumes, and no dyes. finally, a light scent that lasts all day. new downy light! welcome back. as you heard just a few moments aknow progressives are whipping votes against tomorrow's house vote on the bipartisan infrastructure legislation that has already passed the senate. progressive leaders are refusing to concede any legislative leverage that could help them pass the larger reconciliation bill. >> my fear is that if the due agreement reached is broken and we just pass the infrastructure bill the leverage we have here in the senate to pass the reconciliation bill will be largely gone. so, i want to do both. it's not that i'm against infrastructure. i'm for infrastructure but what is more important is passage of reconciliation. i don't want to lose the leverage. >> senator alex padilla of california joins me now. senator padilla, i think this is one of the, i understand the strategy on trying to make sure you figure out how to keep some of these reconciliation. but this does feel like the living example of cutting off your nose spite your face. why is tanking that bill tomorrow the right way to get reconciliation done? >> look, i think the real question is what part of an agreement have people forgotten when we were first advancing the bipartisan part one of the two-part infrastructure package. it was clear. it was clear to members of the senate and the house and to the president that we were on a duel track. the first piece, whatever we could negotiate on a bipartisan basis we would support. but it was with the understanding that in the budget reconciliation package part two of infrastructure we would go bigger and bolder on so many things that are urgently needed across the country. look hurricanes in the southeast, flooding in the northeast, the west is on fire. yes, we need to tackle climate change. getting the economy back on track and hard to get people back to work if child care and the overall economy isn't included. i can go through example after example of why we need this. >> i guess the question i have, though, is if the trust issue is this fragile among progressives and centrists where you just don't trust them to work with you if you get this bill passed tomorrow, how do you expect to get on the same page anyway? it feels like the more people dig in their heels the more people want to dig in their heels. >> yeah, well, look, i think it's maybe an old mix. certainly the drama that is playing out at the surface level in the public but behind the scenes that you see a lot of work happening to get to yes on everything. the bipartisan deal, the reconciliation package and everybody understands how critically important it is and how urgent it is. you know, let me give you just two more examples. housing. right. as i traveled throughout the state of california and frankly throughout the country, most major cities are experiencing epic homelessness and we need to address that through housing policy and housing investments. healthcare, if we learned nothing else from this pandemic it is the need to modernize our healthcare system and grow capacity for our growing population. that, i think, is a sentiment shared by our colleagues at least on my side of the aisle in both houses which is why i'm confident we'll have some drama and roller coaster few weeks but it will get done. >> this, the larger bill is going to get smaller. the question is how much smaller does it get in order to, you know, what is the magic number that gets 50 on board and with that if you and i knew the answer to that, we wouldn't be talking about it right now. we know it will get smaller. >> we would be in las vegas, chuck. >> exactly. what is your attitude when it comes to trimming this bill? your ambition. do you try to, do you try to cut out certain programs that you just don't do. do a few things well fully. or do you try to do a bunch of stuff but maybe it's means tested. maybe it's over a two or three-year period. where's your head of how to rein in ambition if the cost of this bill is going to go down? >> yeah, well, first let me start by recognizing this $3.5 trillion figure number one is already a compromise. the chair of the senate had a $6 trillion proposal which i supported again because of the urgent need to invest in all aspects of infrastructure. how do we get the number from 3 to 6.5 massaging and tweaking and do we fully fund ten years of a certain program or let's narrow it to six or five and add means testing along the way. there's different ways to massage the number but i don't think we restrict the areas of impact that we are trying to make. so, you know, we're going to do it right. the other piece here let's not misrepresent the $3.5 trillion, it's $3.5 trillion of additional deficit spending. you know, as much as i think more room on the credit card, there is a plan to cover the bill here. so, anybody suggesting otherwise or expressing concern about the nation's deficit is off point here. this is a paid for plan and it's urgently needed. >> very quickly speaking of the debt and the issue of the debt limit. why isn't there an alternative plan right now being floated by democrats that essentially eliminates, you know, this ridiculous hostage taking is ridiculous. it only feeds cynicism of government. it's a useless, we know all this. why is their response to this, okay, fine, we'll do it and we're going to do it for the very last time and we're never doing this again. >> look, mitch mcconnell and republicans off the hook. the votes are there to raise the debt ceiling on the floor of the senate. the house cynical is it to even obstruct letting democrats do what democratic only votes. even mitch mcconnell is suggesting be done in terms of raising the debt ceiling. so, you know, we'll power through it. there's always more in multiple parliamentary procedural ways to get it done and we'll do what we need to do in the next couple weeks. >> it is interesting. i think mitch mcconnell words can be used by democrats to say, look, when they need government to work, it's an odd piece of leverage that i don't know quite what he thinks he's getting there. senator padilla, democrat from california, thank you for coming on and sharing your perspective. let's turn now to a developing story in haiti where just moments ago the latest plane carrying haitian migrants that were deported from del rio e, texas, were deported. these deportation flights would continue to haiti. some of these refugees you'll remember some of the 15,000 migrants congregaing and most folks have not stepped on haitian soil in nearly a decade. our own jacob joins me now from the airport. what and is greeting these folks who have not been in this country for nearly a decade? >> confusion and frustration, chuck. actually behind me right now that bus pulling up right here at this gate at the airport is filled with migrants who got off the latest deportation plane to arrive here in port-au-prince. and the biden administration says there has been at least 4,600 haitians who have been expelled from del rio, texas, to here in port-au-prince and another airport in haiti since just ten days ago. 4,600. they expect 5,000 potentially by the end of the day here to be expelled. when i say confusion they're greeted with confusion because many haitians haven't lived in haiti for five, six, some even ten years. they left here to go work in brazil, work in chile for the world cup for the olympics. and they spent all that time there and then went on the move through central america and made their way to the united states and ultimately they were picked up and expelled under this title 42 order by the biden administration and now met with a haiti they don't know and don't remember. some have been given cash payment once they get to the airport and not at the biden administration but on the situation here on the ground. they don't know where to go and who to talk to. the united nations is managing that and behind the bus is a tent from the united nations international migration institute, international organization for migration and what's happening, chuck, ymg i'm sure it's hard to see through the bus but what is happening, chuck. people don't know what to do. that's why they're saying it's inhumane and now really the situation is playing out here on the ground and there are a lot of unhappy people. >> your audio is terrific, some of your shots are freezing up. i know viewers are seeing that, so, if you hear about it, that's what happened there. but i'm curious, jacob, you know when you heard secretary mayorkus on the show on sunday he wouldn't say directly that it was easier to clear that camp in del rio, texas, once the people found out some might be deported back to haiti. that's exactly what happened. it seems that is why they want to keep this policy in place. they think it turns into a magnet if they don't. >> yeah, they say this is not an immigration enforcement policy. they say it's a cdc public health authority but effectively advocates are saying this is deterrence. there is no other way to describe it and the thought of sending in ten day's time 5,000 people back to a country that is the force in the western hemisphere that has virtually no job opportunities and some of the greatest food insecurity in the world is inhumane and it's deterrence. it's deterrence very explicitly. that's the challenge that this administration faces both for people back home and democrats who are saying, what are you doing and also for the migrants once they arrive here. >> i am curious, secretary mayorkus said to me they weren't trying to work with third party countries as an alternative here for deportation. was there no option in chile and no option in south america at all? >> there's no signs of that here. the people that we talked to were picked up in texas and i talked to a gentleman a couple minutes ago who arrived here from texas after spending five years in south america. made his way through nine countries he said to get to the mexican border and he wasn't given the choice. he was put on an airplane and sent right back here to haiti. the idea that the 4,600 and maybe 5,000 by the end of the day arriving here in port-au-prince what country to resettle in. that is not true and accurate and the flights we continue to see come in, the scheduled flights are all coming here to haiti. on the ground no sign of third country resettlement in any way. >> jacob, are you seeing any evidence of family? supposedly if you had small children, you weren't going to get deported back to haiti. what have you seen there? >> well, let me actually just take a look right now, chuck, at what i can see from my vantage point through the fence here. inside the iom tent, i see little children. i see a little girl holding a man's hand wearing a purple backpack and turquoise tank top and pants to match. i don't know if you can see it. >> no, i can't. >> i see a woman wearing a blue blouse. there are definitely women and children here. what appear to be families. it is certainly not just single adult men. >> jacob soboroff on the ground in haiti for us and i have a feeling i know you're just getting there. you'll keep learning more and keep sharing your reporting on the ground. jacob soboroff, thank you very much. up next, the nation's top military leaders are back on capitol hill today. this time hearing from the house side general milley's stark acknowledgment that america lost the war in afghanistan. you're watching "meet the press daily." if you have diabetes, you should wear a dexcom. i'm on this one because it's the best. and because it works. it's easy to wear. you put it on, and the numbers are there. no fingersticks. i can't say that enough. the dexcom is a game changer. welcome back. for the second day in a row the pentagon's top military and civilian leaders on capitol hill facing tough questions about the u.s. withdrawal from afghanistan. chairman mark milley testifying today. austin was asked about their testimony yesterday for the senate armed services committee in which they said they recommended president biden keep about 2,500 service members in afghanistan. >> could you talk to us a little bit about the 2,500 soldiers or, sorry, service members who were left there and how you approached that decision? >> i will always keep my recommendations to the president confidential but i would say that in my view there is no, was no risk-free status quo option. >> he did not face much scrutiny yesterday in the final days of the trump administration. house republicans, that's another story. they were far more focused. >> you chose to talk to reporters instead of us and that's great. it's a great concern. no one in congress knew that one of two of the major nuclear powers thought they were perhaps being threatened for attack. >> i guarantee that that intelligence was disseminated to in the president, the vice president, the dni and director cia and the secretary of defense and the assistant to the president of national security affairs and others. that was significant and that was a lot of it. >> courtney kube joins me now from the pentagon. courtney, it's actually another answer that milley gave today that i would like to focus on. today i feel like we have a clearer explanation of the decision to leave bagram when the military left and essentially under questioning general milley seemed to indicate that once president biden reaffirmed the decision to leave by 9/11, that it made bagram impossible and would everybody in the pentagon agree with that rationale? >> it's not just impossible, it was counter to the mission and the order that they were given. okay, so, the military was given the order to withdraw all u.s. troops from afghanistan pie a certain date. first september 11th and then august 31st. the only military presence supposed to be on the ground there was defending the embassy. when the military leaders particularly general miller looked at that and said, okay, well, i need somewhere between 600 to 800 u.s. troops to defend the embassy, we're going to have to have an airport. as part of an embassy presence you need to do have a safe airport to do an evacuation from. kabul airport is much closer to the airport than bagram was and that made the sense to keep security presence there to maintain a safe airport. it wasn't something, again, as part of the mission to pull troops out, maintain the embassy, bagram was never part of that. the argument that keeps being made over and over that it has two runways and larger and more people can come in and out. that also doesn't make sense. if you're talking about a noncombatant evacuation, bagram is about 30 miles outside the city. the military in order to have a success out of bagram would have to secure the road to go there. that would take potentially thousands of troops and secure the entire perimeter of bagram and thousands of troops and somewhere in the neighborhood of seven gates to bagram and then also push out from the perimeter to have safe space for any potential rocket attacks into bagram. now you're talking literally thousands of troops that are needed to secure bagram and that doesn't even address the need to allow to get to bagram when many of the civilians were in kabul already. he explained the logistical reason that bagram did not make sense to keep open. >> so, the totality of what we learned certainly from yesterday and today seems to be the military leadership both civilian and active duty seems to have made it clear, look, this was on the white house. they made this decision. we carried out the order. we may have advised something else but it does feel as if they're making it clear this isn't on us. is that how you look at it? >> yes. but, i mean, also making it very clear that this was the president's decision because he's the commander in chief and there's civilian in control of the military. the one thing lost in a lot of this, it is very uncommon for us to hear from a general officer like general milley and secretary austin, very uncommon for us to hear from them that they made a recommendation to the president and they went in the opposite direction. we don't usually hear about that kind of behind the scenes advice and counsel and, again, they aren't specifically saying that here but they are making it clear that that was their advice. but to a person they're also coming out afterwards saying, look, the president made his decision and we accepted it and carrying out. it is a lawful order and we decided to move forward with it. i don't hear them second guessing the decision. i haven't heard that from yesterday or today. >> that's interesting. >> instead they're saying, look, civilian control of the military. he made the decision. it's a policy decision and we're carrying it out as a lawful order. that's one thing i was struck by. the reporting has been out there since april that the president made the decision to withdrawal. we have been hearing from defense officials this was not the recommendation of the top military leaders. through that whole time, i haven't been hearing complaints about it. there were a lot of them that agreed that keeping a presence there would not change the overall outcome of the war or would not change how afghanistan would ultimately be in the matter of months or years. the reason that they recommended keeping them there is because they were hoping they could prop up the ghani government a little longer and have more of a peace agreement on the ground there. the reality is and we heard this from general milley today, it wasn't going to change the strategic outcome of the war in afghanistan. >> it was just postponing when the lid off the boiling pot was goegto explode? >> or maybe having it explode a little less than it did. maybe bringing it to a slightly different outcome by giving it more leverage in talks with the taliban. but the reality is none of them are saying they thought ultimately this would have a different outcome keeping their presence there. >> more importantly, no one saying we want to go back. correct? >> exactly. and they've gotten that question today. a lot of people specifically on the house armed services have said, what's going to happen if we have to send more troops back there and none of them advocated for that. >> that's an important point and getting clearer and clearer to me and confirmed by reporting that this decision was made before president biden took office. he knew the direction he was going. courtney kube at the pentagon for us. courtney, thank you. up next, the first place outside of d.c. that democrats could see the electoral consequences of the dysfunction happening right now outside of d.c. you're watching "meet the press daily." and not only make new discoveries, but get there faster, with better outcomes. with app, cloud and anywhere workspace solutions, vmware helps companies navigate change-- meeting them where they are, and getting them where they want to be. faster. vmware. welcome change. did you know that your clothes can actually attract pet hair? with bounce pet hair & lint guard, your clothes can repel pet hair. look how the shirt on the left attracts pet hair like a magnet! pet hair is no match for bounce. with bounce, you can love your pets, and lint roll less. ♪ ♪ mom! mom! every day can be extraordinary with rich, creamy, delicious fage total yogurt. ♪ when you have nausea, ♪ ♪ heartburn, ingestion, upset stomach... ♪nary with rich, ♪ diarrheaaaa. ♪ pepto bismol coats your stomach with fast and soothing relief. and try new drug free pepto herbal blends. made from 100% natural ginger and peppermint. ray loves vacations. but his diabetes never seemed to take one. everything felt like a 'no.' everything. but then ray went from no to know. with freestyle libre 14 day, now he knows his glucose levels when he needs to... and...when he wants to. so ray...can be ray. take the mystery out of your glucose levels, and lower your a1c. now you know. try it for free. visit freestylelibre.us welcome back. off-year elections are often the best way to predict or at least have an idea of which way the political winds will be blowing in the even-numbered years. the gubernatorial election in virginia has democrats wringing their hands, as the dysfunction continues in congress and biden's poll numbers continue to drop, the battle between youngkin and mcauliffe appears to be tightening. a monmouth poll claims to have mcauliffe up, most of the polling in virginia seems to have the democrat up. most pollsters think their sample sizes are a bit too blue-heavy. our friends at the cook political report relate moved the race to a toss-up citing the souring national environment for democrats. last night in their debate mcauliffe try to distance himself from capitol hill chaos. joining us now, lead political columnist for "the virginia times dispatch," jeff shapiro, good to see you, sir. >> good to see you. did you enjoy yourself last night? >> we certainly had an interesting start thanks to the interruption by a third party candidate. i enjoyed the debate because i thought the two candidates were really on their game. we got to a lot of issues and i thought that that was remarkable to me, jeff, and i hadn't seen this in politics in the last couple of years, they both were actually trying to woo the same voter. for a long time it's been polarized. they're each trying to talk to swing voters who live in loudoun county in virginia. >> this is a state that's two-thirds suburban and urban. the majority of people who live here moved here from somewhere else. as a consequence, it's a state in which national, regional, and local politics, state politics too, are virtually indistinguishable. >> i want to talk about the issue of washington's impact on a governor's race. we know the stick that terry mcauliffe actually broke, where the party that lost the white house won the next year's governor's race in virginia. terry broke that string in '13. yet it actually was telling, he almost lost a race that never should have been close with someone as conservative as ken cuccinelli but it was due to the government shutdown and the health care launch debacle. how concerned should mcauliffe be this time about this apparent congressional dysfunction? >> you know, it's quite clear from what he said last night, suggesting that the infrastructure package carry a lighter price tag, that he's concerned. to your point about how he and youngkin are vying for the same voters, there was nary a mention last night about the possibility of a government shutdown. with the democrats in charge of everything on the other side of the potomac, mcauliffe is clearly concerned that there will be less deniability if the government goes dark. but there are independent analysts here in virginia who believe a shutdown is pretty much a republican tactic and that these independent analysts believe that the voters will see that as such. >> feels like a bank shot to me with democrats in charge, technically in charge of the house, the senate, and the white house. but that's what millions of dollars of tv ads could change. let me ask you this. from what you've seen of youngkin, do you think he's moved enough to distance himself from trump or not? >> not from what we saw last night. your first question on vaccinations, reconciling his opposition to mandatory covid jabs with mandatory jabs for measles, what have you, for public schoolchildren, he sputtered on that question. and then, if you want to see sort of a continuum, that this is clearly tied to this trump balancing act that he faces, one of those closing questions, who is he going to support for the 2024 presidential nomination for the republican party. first he ducked it, then he said, well, if it's trump i'll support him. so i think he certainly handed the democrats some talking points coming out of last night's debate. but clearly mcauliffe handed one or two to youngkin as well, on education, on public safety. >> jeff shapiro, is there anything about the polling you've seen, do you think that virginia is -- are we going to find out if virginia has any chance of ever being a swing state again, that in this environment, if mcauliffe wins by five or more, that this sort of solidifies virginia as deep blue? >> i suspect that argument will be made. i've always thought virginia's shade of blue was more carolina blue than navy blue. the reason for that is every year in virginia, we have an election. and every election attracts a different electorate. you're going to see the fallout, the turnout fall from 70% plus in a presidential year to the low 40s. that can scramble results. >> it sure does. jeff shapiro, longtime political columnist and reporter for "the richmond times dispatch," great to get your perspective. and thank you all for being with us this hour. we'll be back tomorrow on "meet the press daily" with an exclusive new peak of our new streaming show, "meet the press reports." and don't forget we've got a new chuck toddcast up today, the question, "where's joe?" msnbc coverage continues with geoff bennett right after this break. grandparents! we want to put money aside for them, so...change in plans. alright, let's see what we can adjust. ♪♪ we'd be closer to the twins. change in plans. okay. mom, are you painting again? 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