the gop led election audit in arizona was concluded. not surprisingly, not only did the quote, unquote, audit not change the results, but president biden actually widened his lead. you got to hand it to donald trump. the man just keeps losing. and it doesn't look like his luck will change any time soon. the house select committee to investigate the january 6th attack issued its first four subpoenas this week. and they all went to trump loyalists including his most recent chief of staff mark meadows. in texas, the migrant crisis along the southern border continues to escalate, and it's not just republicans condemning the biden administration's response to the thousands of haitians seeking an escape from their ravaged country. after this photo went viral of a border patrol agent on horse back grabbing a migrant, the reaction from prominent democrats including the vice president was swift. >> i'm pissed. i'm unhappy. and i'm not just unhappy with the cowboys. with the administration. we are following the trump policy. >> human beings should not be treated that way. as we all know, it also evoked images of some of the worst moments of our history where that kind of behavior has been used against the indigenous people of our country has been used against african americans during times of slavery. >> on wednesday the u.s. special envoy for haiti resigned writing he will not be associated with the united states inhumane counter productive decision to support thousands of haitian refugees. meanwhile the confusion surrounding covid booster shots continues this week. dr. rochelle walensky was at odds with a panel that previously recommended pfizer booster shots for those 6 5 and older or immune compromised people. it was stressed that booster shots are not ultimately what will end the fight against covid. >> we still have over 70 million americans who have failed to get a single shot. >> i want to be clear. we will not boost our way out of this pandemic. infections among the unvaccinated continue to fuel this pandemic, resulting in a rising number of cases, hospitalizations, and deaths where people are unvaccinated. the most vulnerable are those unvaccinated. >> but we begin today with a closer look at the trio of deadlines looming on capitol hill. and the stakes couldn't be higher. the least pressing deadline is to extend the debt ceiling. anl analysis reveals they could reach the debt limit as early as october 15th. stay tuned for the by line for more of my thoughts on that. for now, it's clear. given the squabbling by the senate majority and minority leaders, our resolution doesn't appear to be in sight. >> the truth is we'll be voting to pay for the debt accrued under presidents of both parties, including the 8 trillion added to the debt under president trump. both sides incurred the debt. both sides should pay it. >> the debt ceiling will be raised as it always should be. but it will be raised by the democrats. >> on thursday the fiscal year ends and the government runs out of money. and both parties must reach a compromise to avoid a government shutdown which would be the first of the covid era. the white house seems to be preparing for the worst. >> well, we are taking every step we can to mitigate the impacts of a potential shutdown on our pandemic response, economic recovery, or other priorities. the fact that shutdowns are incredibly costly, disruptive and damaging. this is not formal guidance being given. it's a reminder we're seven days out and need to be prepared in any event of any contingency. we see this as a routine step and one to be prepared in any of event of what could happen. >> it's the pair of economic packages on which a large part of the biden agenda rests that comes -- starts moving tomorrow. a house vote for the $1 trillion infrastructure bill which passed the senate last month in an unusually bipartisan way is deadlined for tomorrow. but will its possible passage make way for the $3.5 trillion reconciliation package that all republicans oppose, and about which some moderate democrats are cautious? yesterday it passed budget committee. but democratic infighting persists. for her part, speaker pelosi continues to play it cool in a letter to her democratic colleagues late saturday she acknowledged the intensity of the coming week, but she's projecting an our of confidence in a way only nancy pelosi can. >> with will the vote still happen on sure for monday in the infrastructure bill? >> what about the work -- >> that's going to come next week? >> joining me now is congressman from wisconsin. thank you for coming to the sunday show. are you as encouraged as the speaker of the house? >> yeah. first thanks for having me. absolutely i am. this is something that is a priority for democrats. from joe biden down to every member of the house and senate, we support the values that are in the build back better act and the infrastructure bill. you have several hundred people right now all rowing together, democrats in the house and senate to get this done. there's a couple handfuls that are still picking what kind of wood they want their oar made out of. we'll get there. i am confident as is speaker pelosi, that we're going to get both of the big bills done and provide help to american families. >> let me have you listen to your successor, the new chair of the house progressive caucus from washington. what she had to say about where things stand with her. >> at the end of the day, if we don't have the reconciliation bill done, the infrastructure bill will not pass. >> try us. i got more than half of the caucus who feels very strongly we're going to deliver the entirety of the president's agenda. >> so congressman, you've got congresswoman saying to, quote, unquote moderates, try us. we can sink the $3.5 trillion reconciliation bill when there's talk like that, and granted, that is from wednesday. we're now at sunday. are you concerned that the divide between the two wings of the democratic party won't be bridged to a sufficient manner to allow all of these things to pass this week in the way that the speaker wants? >> well, first remember, political years are like dog years. right? wednesday is a long time ago. here's exactly where we're at. we want to get the entire agenda that joe biden has done. that agenda, the build back better agenda involves the build back better act, also known as the reconciliation bill. bills we're moving together. that's exactly what's going to happen with them. but to the democrats, people support these values. i don't think any democrat right now who is still picking what wood is going in their oar is deciding they're going to go back to explain why they didn't get child care done for their constituents or family leave done or why we didn't expand medicare or reduce the cost of prescription drugs. what's important not as the process and everyone right now is focusing on the process. this is families that have families via the tax credit. it's going to reduce the cost for american families for family leave and a lot of other areas and create millions of jobs. i want to mention, many of which have a green focus, a climate change focus. and it's paid for. so this is a popular agenda, and i think at the end of the day, any wavering democrat who might have a special interest or two maybe in their ear trying to slow this bill down because that's the real opponents, it's big pharma and the special interests that don't want to pay for this. we'll get this done because democrat values are in this bill. >> that gets to the question i want to ask. are we getting too hung up on the price tag and not focussed on the product as you call it, which is something that a congresswoman of washington said on lawrence o'donnell's show. and i bring that up because is it possible that this bill, the reconciliation bill could come in under $3.5 trillion? still do all the stuff of the build back better agenda, but for less money? >> again, jonathan, i agree. it's the product that matters. there's shared values. whether it's 3.5 or if it's different costs because of the some other accounting, don't forget, we just marked this up through the house committees as of last week we were still finishing getting our cbo scores. what's important is what's in the bill is passed by the house. those are important values that are really going to help people. and joe biden is committed to it. and i agree with you. as long as the values are there, that's what we want to get done. we've got to have both of the bills go together. they're twin bills. you wouldn't separate twins and we're not going to separate these bills. >> i find it interesting -- the price tag -- there's some wiggle room. last question for you. am i wrong in thinking that all of the red line drawing that we have seen over the past week and that i'm sure we're going to keep seeing until the votes are taken, that this is the storm before the calm. that one day we're going to wake up and boom, breaking news. there's an agreement? >> jonathan, i agree again. i think the values are democratic values. we know our constituents want these things. affordable chald care. family leave policies. expanding health care options. there's so much in here that's good for american families. and they are democratic values. even the people who are a little slow to come to the party, there's several hundred of us there. and as nancy pelosi said, there's not an inner party fight. the opposition out there is big pharma and the special interests, many of which trying to pressure members of congress. i think we're bigger than this, and joe biden has done a great job of rallying us. this will happen. it may not be monday. it may be wednesday. it may be the following wednesday, end of the day what matters is the product, and we'll deliver. >> this is interesting. the congressman from wisconsin. relentlessly on message. all about the values that are in the bill. thank you very much for coming to "the sunday show". ahead, what's next for thousands of haitian migrants who were living in squaller conditions under the international bridge in del rio, texas? 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>> it was heart wrenching to see at that point there was still a couple thousand left under the bridge. no protection from the elements. they had to sleep under whatever they had if they had clothing or tentings, bare clothing. they had brought in a medical tents. they had brought in food, but they had to stand in line. but there was no covid testing. there was no vaccination available. it was just something that really spoke to me of the lack of humanity that is demonstrated to people that are only seeking to get to a country to get refuge from a country that has been destabilized. you must remember, jonathan, their president was killed just a little under two months ago. a month later they had an earthquake followed by tropical storms. if that does not qualify you to seek asylum to leave a destabilized government and the fact that your homes have been destroyed by earthquake, then what other qualifications for asylum? i think rhetoric is not enough here. we must say that we have one standard of asylum and that we are going to demonstrate that whether the person is of a certain race or not or a certain nationality or not. >> rev, president biden was asked about this at a press conference earlier on friday, actually. let's have a listen to what he had to say. i'll ask about it on the other side. >> do you take responsibility for chaos that's unfolding? >> of course i take responsibility. i'm president. but i was horrible as you saw, to see people treat it like they did. running them over and people being strapped. it's outrageous. i promise you, those people will pay. they will be db an investigation underway now, and there will be consequences. there will be consequences. it's beyond an embarrassment. it's dangerous. it's wrong. it sends the wrong message around the world. it sends the wrong message at home. it's simply not who we are. >> i play that, rev, because of what you said a moment ago about rhetoric. rhetoric is not enough. you're a friend of the president. you're in touch of the white house. have you talked to president biden since those images came out? >> i've not talked to him. i've talked to people in the white house. i've talked to homeland security. and i said to them that not only must the people that are responsible, those that were on that horseback doing that corralling of people that were so reminiscent of days of slavery that we have seen the depictions of, they must not only be held accountable, but they're superior that act like that was already. must be held accountable, and we must deal with the whole policy. so i think what the president said is good. now, let's see since you say you are responsible, what will you do with that responsibility? will we in many ways penalize, punish those border patrolmen that did this. their supervisors, and will we give refuge to people from haiti that in my judgment, and in the judgment of many americans have no other place to seek refuge than the united states. let's not forget the united states has been complicit in propping up dictators, in propping up many things that cause the dire conditions in haiti. we like to talk about haiti as the poorest nation in this hemisphere. what i did by design and by cooperation of many administrations prior to this one, this administration has the moral obligation to correct a lot of that. and it's not by deporting people and sending them back into what is clearly a disaster. >> you know, rev, one of the things that i also find very disturbing about the images is we've been talking about chaos on the border now for years. and yet, this is the first time i recall seeing border patrol agents on horseback corralling migrants at the border. >> no. it is the first time i've seen it. i went to texas when they were putting mexican children in cages. and i didn't see horseback. so we've been involved in these issues before. this is the first time i've seen such a blatant use of horses, and let me tell you what else. they said well, we didn't actually see them use the reigns to whip the haitians. they used it to corral them, push them back. they used the horses as weapons. the weaponizing of the horses is enough to say this was inhuman and should be illegal and they ought to be held accountable. the horses themselves were the weapon. i think we've got to really deal with this, but we cannot just stop with the horse at the border issue as egregious as that is. we must deal with the consistent policy of what is the qualifications for asylum whether you are from europe. whether you're from africa. whether you're from haiti or mexico. it should be one standard. >> right. reverend al sharpton, thank you for coming to "the sunday show". later today morgan freeman joins you to talk about a new film he's producing called "the killing of kenneth chamberlain" the story of yet another black man killed by white police officers. the george floyd justice and policing act. i'll talk to one of the architects of the bill, congresswoman karen bass. stay with us. congresswoman kares stay with us downy unstopables in-wash scent boosters keep your laundry smelling fresh waaaay longer than detergent alone. pour a cap of downy unstopables into your washing machine before each load. and enjoy fresher smelling laundry. if you want laundry to smell fresh for weeks make sure you have downy unstopables in-wash scent boosters. shop online for downy unstopables, including our new, lighter scent. i don't just play someone brainy on tv - i'm an actual neuroscientist. and i love the science behind neuriva plus. unlike ordinary memory supplements, neuriva plus fuels six key indicators of brain performance. more brain performance? 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[daughter] slurping don't pay for water. pay for clean. it's got to be tide. coming up, ground breaking -- i'm sorry -- welcome to live tv. the equal justive initiative is known for the history of confronting the history of racial injustice. that is relevant in the newly expanded legacy museum. the amazing space opening to the public on friday. i recently had a chance to get a sneak preview and sit down with the founder of eji and the legacy museum, brian stephenson. >> brian, welcome to the sunday show. >> thank you. it's great to be with you. >> we are here at the legacy museum. it is in a brand new space in montgomery, alabama. a much bigger space than it was in previously -- why is this museum important and why was it so important to expand it in the way that you did? >> yeah. i mean, in many ways it's a whole new museum. i just feel like we have lived not just through a pandemic over the last 18 months. but through a really revealing period in american history where a lot of us have recognized that we have not addressed the legacy of slavery. we have not dealt honestly with our history. and the consequences of that have just been devastating. and we've just seen manifestations of that in ways we haven't seen probably in a half century. so i just feel like there needed to be a place in america where people could come and begin to reckon with this long history that they just haven't learned much about. people are not taught about the transatlantic slave trade or the multiple ways in which slavery created this cast system and the consequences of reconstruction and what failed during that era. they're not taught about the lynching and the era of racial apartheid. i don't think many people have a consciousness about that. we wanted to create a space that was big enough for people to kind of take a journey and to walk through and come out on the other side with a really different perspective, a really different set of facts and information about who we are that might prepare them for this moment and might lead us to a better place. that's my goal. to get us to a better place. >> it's a journey. usually people go to museums and it's for a finite moment, meaning a finite historical moment. but the journey folks go through in this museum, when they come out on the other side, it's a journey that's still continuing. >> that's right. we think of this as a narrative museum. the motivation for me for this museum was the apartheid museum in south africa and the hol cast memorial in berlin. we want people to understand the whole history, and that's why we start with the transatlantic slave trade and go through the domestic slave trade. we go to the era of lynching where for is century people were dragged out of their homes and beat on their lawns. we have more civil rights museums in this country, and oftentimes i don't think they accurately contextualize the legacy. they sometimes skew triumphant. that can give you the misimpression that everything was fixed in the 1960s. we don't want to do that. there's still a presumption of dangerousness and guilt for black and brown people. we're still dealing with a narrative of racial difference shapes what happens to you and me when we just go into public places. that's something we wanted to ignore. that's why it goes from the segregation era to the current era. we're dealing with overincarceration and police violence and the challenges of a new generation of children who have the navigate these problems. here we are 2021, and you can be an award winning journalist or teacher or doctor or lawyer, an engineer, a pastor. you can be kind. but if you're black or brown, you'll go places in the country where you have to gav nate the presumptions of. the children of our children will live in a world where they are unburdened by the legacy of slavery. where they are not forced to navigate racial bigotry and dangerousness. to get there, we have to do the work. >> it's a lot of hard work. >> yeah. >> but there's this one part of the museum where you walk down this long hall. were you -- you take us -- you take the visitor through -- because the name of the museum is legacy museum from slavery to mass incarceration. savory, terrorism. >> lynching. >> lynching. segregation. then comes mass incarceration. and when you and i have talked. this is our fourth interview. but one thing you said in i think our first interview, how things have morphed. that lynching morphed into mass incarceration. that the lynchings went from the courthouse steps into the courthouse. >> that's right. that's right. i don't think people understand that the real evil of american slavery, it wasn't just the involuntary servitude and the forced labor. it was the narrative that was created by enslavers to justify enslavement. the narrative is black people are not the same as white people. they're less human, less capable, less worthy. the tragedy of that kind of narrative is we never addressed it. when the civil war ends, the north wins the civil war, but the south wins the narrative war. and the idea of racial hierarchy persists after the 13th amendment which talks about ending slavery but nothing about ending the narrative, the ideology of white supremacy. we're still a country committed to racial hierarchy, and white supremacy after the civil war. that's why i've argued slavery went end. it evolves. it turns into a century where you have the violence and terror and our courts do nothing. the congress does nothing. six million black people flee the american south. they flee lands they owned and operated. they give up the potential for wealth because they're not secure. and i've argued that the black people in cleveland and chicago and detroit and los angeles didn't go to those communities as immigrants looking for new economic communities. they went to the communities as refugees and exiles from terror in the american south. we never really talked about that. and then we had the era of civil rights activists which was amazing, but we were deconstructing laws and codes and structures and systems that were not just legal. they were social, economic, political. and those systems still exist. so after the civil rights era you had nixon saying war on drugs. we began putting more people in jails and prisons than any country in the world. we now have the highest rate of incarceration in the world. it's projected one in three black male babies born in this country is expected to go to jail or prison. it's not a topic for political candidates. so challenging that for me means we have to begin talking more honestly about this history, and other countries that have made progress have committed to that truth and justice and reconciliation and restoration and repair. we haven't done that in america. >> your favorite part of the museum? >> the parts that despite the cruelty and pain and anguish you see black people standing up even when they're told to sit down. you see them speaking -- hear them speaking even when they're told to be quiet. that for me is incredibly inspiring. >> brian stevenson, founder of the equal justice initiative, home to the legacy museum. thank you very, very much. >> my privilege. my pleasure. coming up, ground breaking for the barack obama presidential center is this week. and long-time obama adviser valerie jarrett joins me next to discuss what this will mean for the city of chicago and the nation. chicago and the nation - oh, sister of mine. - mmm... - i got you this. - the new iphone 13 pro? - it's on verizon 5g - i can't believe you got me this! - yes, verizon is giving one to everyone when they trade in their old or damaged phone. - oh! so like every sister can get this? - yeah. - every aluminum siding installer? - why not? - every doula? - they would have to! every customer, new and old, can get iphone 13 pro on us. because everyone deserves better. - everyone! - horse trainers! - manicurists! - you get the new iphone! - 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(woman) yeah, y-you did. ♪ we are farmers. bum-pa-dum, bum-bum-bum-bum ♪ barack and i always knew we'd come back here. it's where i grew up surrounded by a community that made me who i am. >> it's where i got my start in public service. knocking on doors and organizing in church basements. and it's where michelle and i got married and started our family. >> so when it came time to plan the obama presidential center, we wanted to give something back to the place that gave us so much. >> on tuesday former president obama and the former first lady will return to chicago. the city central to their political and personal lives to oversee the ground breaking of the barack obama presidential center. the building will be located in chicago's jackson park. it will highlight the historic contributions of the nation's first black president and it's also meant to give an economic boost to the city's iconic south side. joining me now for a preview of this week's ground breaking, former senior adviser to my heart is so full. what better place to have this incredible center call home. >> you're coming to us from chicago. how are the obamas feeling about the ground breaking on tuesday? >> they're so excited to have this opportunity to give back to the city that they love, to create this beacon of hope that will be a catalyst, a beginning right here on the south side of chicago for positive change. it will tell the story of those shoulders on which they stand, the people who made it possible for barack and michelle obama to do what they've already done and to tell that story of their accomplishments but also to chart the course ford future and empower and inspire the next generation, jonathan, and give them the tools that they need to go out and be this incredible force for good. >> we're looking at pictures as you were speaking of renderings of what the presidential center will look like. what can visitors expect when it finally opens? when's it expocketed to open by the way when all of the construction is done? >> it will take about four years of construction. you're looking right now at the museum building which will tell the story, as i said, the people who came before the obamas that paved the way. there will be a public library. very important for them to be a part, have an anchor in the community. there will be a vegetable garden similar to what mrs. obama created at the white house. there will be walking trails, picnic places, the forum building where people will gather from all over the world to talk about how to be change agents, athletic fields sledding in the winter. inclusive and those who live in the community can benefit, jobs, contracts, opportunities to participate in the construction and management of the center but to have a ripple effect throughout the entire west and south sides of chicago. having grown up here myself, jonathan, i can tell you, there was a disparate. two cities. there was a north side and a south side. growing up along a lake front that connected the two and see the lack of investment that happened on our part of town and now the obamas get to infuse this incredible economic engine, a world class institution that will bring the world to chicago and bring chicago around the world. >> i remember in mrs. obama's book "becoming" and in this sense it was the south side of chicago and the university of chicago how this elite institution walled off from the community around it. the barack obama presidential center from everything you described will bust that wide open. it's part of the community. >> well, it weaves the city together in an important way. it is nestled between the university of chicago that in a couple of weeks launched an obama u scholars program. we will have students from the business school, public policy and school of social services being a part of our campus, learning these important leadership skills that we can teach them so that their degree from the university will be augmented with what we have to offer and then the museum of science and industry that is just east of the center. we will in a sense have an opportunity to create a museum campus on the south side that rivals anything that you might see on the north side of chicago. >> you're going to be there at the ground breaking? >> of course i will be there. >> are you going to be one of those folks with the shovel? are you going to be there with the shovel digging in the dirt? >> no. this is an important point to make. because obviously we're all still living in the midst of this covid pandemic, there will be a very small ground breaking, mayor, governor, both obamas introduced by young people pointing to the future and highlighting the amazing young folks from the city of chicago who do not get the spotlight that they deserve and so it will be no audience. it will be virtual so everyone can watch at home. open press. we hope that you will all cover it. you can go on our website and watch it as well. >> what's the website? >> theobamafoundation.org. >> sorry to put you on the spot like that. i did that to someone and they're like, ah. sorry about that, valerie. >> no worries at all. tune in. >> former senior adviser to president obama. thank you very, very much for giving us a preview of what's going to happen on tuesday at the ground breaking of the barack obama presidential center. see you soon. >> thank you. and coming up in our next hour, trump's continued assault on democracy and peddling of the big lie. plus, i have an all-star panel who will weigh in on everything from covid and the debt ceiling to immigration and more. keep it right here. keep it right here a makes are the things america makes out here. the history she writes in her clear blue skies. the legends she births on home town fields. and the future she promises. when we made grand wagoneer, proudly assembled in america, we knew no object would ever rank with the best things in this country. but we believed we could make something worthy of their spirit. are you tired of clean clothes that just don't smell clean? 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i'm jonathan capeheart. we begin this hour with donald trump's continued assault on democracy. we watched it so you didn't have to but here's a little taste of it. >> you can see it because i saw what was happening and i can't do it. i can't do it. if you go in with a complaint about election integrity, you get investigated instead of investigating a crooked election. in truth, they're not after me, they're after you. i just happen to be in the way. >> trump's determination to rewrite the past not only shows a complete disregard for democracy and truth but also the lengths to which he'll go to punish those who he deems disloyal to him. he spent a considerable amount of time attacking republican leaders in the peach state, including brad raffensperger. last week he asked him to decertify the election. come on, man. trump also claimed that the so-called arizona audit were in his favor even though it showed biden had netted 360 more votes than the official election tally back in 2020. good lord. but that isn't stopping trump and his allies from calling for even more bogus audits. i need people to talk to about this. joining me, steve schmidt and senior adviser to the lincoln project stewart stevens. he's author of the incredible book "it was all a lie." thank you so much for coming to "the sunday show." steve, this is your first time on the show. i need you to have at it. why is trump continuing to push the big lie but also tell those people that the arizona audit proved he won the state and that the election should be decertified even though he still lost the state again and lost the state by even more votes. >> well, good morning, jonathan. he is doing it for power, to take political power in this country. what he has done is poison american democracy for whatever number you'd like to throw out, is it 30% of the country, 35% of the country. whatever number the 78% of republicans who believe the most legitimate and fair election in the country's history was rigged and that joe biden is an illegitimate president and that the country is in essence occupied by an illegal assortment of politicians put there by minorities, that's what the message is. and it's utterly toxic. the intonations of violence that go along with it. the attempt to strip voting rights that go along with it. this is not about the last election anymore, this is about seeding the ground to refuse to lose the next election. and all of the indicators demonstrate donald trump is the front-runner and the presumptive nominee for the republican nomination in 2024. he lost by less than 50,000 votes across three states and so we have a great threat in this country and one thing i think is incredibly important to understand is the degree to which the republican party is profoundly more radical today than it was on election day, than it was on the morning of january 6th, than it was on inauguration day. the elected leaders of this party have gone fully in on this project which is destroying faith and democracy and at the same time stoking things like replacement theory which until ten months ago we would have all recognized, hey, this is the province of white supremacist groups. we're in a lot of trouble in this country. >> you know to many of the points steve just brought up, my washington post colleague robert kagan has one of the most important opinion essays this year talking about trump and the danger he poses. he -- i want to put up on the screen like a seminal paragraph. the destruction of democracy might not come until november 2024, but critical steps in that direction are happening now. in a little more than a year it may become impossible to pass legislation to protect the electoral process in 2024. now it is impossible only because anti-trump republicans and even some democrats refuse to tinker with the filibuster. it is impossible because despite all that has happened, some people still wish to be good republicans even as they oppose trump. these decisions will not wear well as the nation tumbles into full-blown crisis. stewart, do you agree with bob, that we are already in a constitutional crisis? >> oh, we absolutely are. look, a year ago steve was warning about this and i have to say i was skeptical about it. he's proven he's exactly right and robert kagan is exactly right. this ultimately isn't about donald trump. donald trump's a lunatic. it's about the embracing of a lunatic by the republican party. this is the history of the republican party that's being written here. it's a seminal moment in the country and the party is taking autocratic stance and it's become an autocratic movement in the country. for some of us who worked in the party for like 30 years, it's mind boggling to say that but there's no other way to look at it. the good republican is the republican that speaks out and opposes his own party or her own party now. right now the official position of the republican party is that donald trump won the election, joe biden is an illegal president so we live in an occupied country. last time that happened was 1860. didn't work out so well. that's where we are. >> in your book "it was all a lie," you sort of throw yourself on your own sword and mia culpa for your role in the party. you talk about some people who were going along with what was happening because your book came out during the trump presidency. as i read bob kagan's piece and i recalled your book and the many times i've seen steve on our air at msnbc talking about the trump presidency, i keep going back to where are senator susan collins and mitt romney in all of this? where are their vows? are they so cowed by either donald trump or the people that support donald trump that they live more in fear of him/them than they are about the crumbling of the republic around them? steve? >> look, i think it's -- sorry, go ahead. keep going, stewart. >> go ahead, stewart. >> i think it's a party that followed senator romney when he called out trump in the spring of 2016 when he voted for impeachment. the country would be in a much safer place and the party would be on a path to redemption. it's an absolute failure to meet the moment and this is how democracies end, not with tanks or tv stations anymore, but at the ballot box and in the courtroom and that's the path we're on. >> steve? >> lincoln talked about this in 1838. he said all of the great armies of europe together marching on america, they could be transported here, that they would never take a sip of water from the ohio river. that if our lot is to be destruction, it will be by our own hand. it will be a national suicide. and when you think about president obama in the previous subject and what an amazing facility that will be and how transformative it will be to the economics of the city of chicago and to the south side, it is also a monument to democracy. the only country in the world that barack obama ever could have risen from the circumstances of his birth to become the leader of the mightiest nation on the earth, that that could only happen in america. that could only happen in a democracy. and when you think about democracy being frayed, it's about every person who's different. about every free thinker and free spirit. it's about the musicians and the writers and the artists and the people who flourish in freedom. democracies are the only system, jonathan, that place the dignity of the human being above the power of the state and where we should be as an american society here in the third decade of the 21st century is embracing and understanding that the american idea and ideals of all of us, black, white, hispanic, gay, straight, that no corner of the earth precludes you from full equality in this country, and that's what's under assault and attack. it is a profound mistake to not cover the big lie and also cover the racial animus that is teaming alongside with it. it's not that the election was stolen. they're lying about that, but they're lying and saying it was stolen by black and brown people. that's the need for the voting nullification laws and to be decertified at the whim of the trump war trying to dismantle democracy. you can't uncouple it from the violence. the people who are showing up with military assault weapons clad like they're in fallujah, neofascist groups, all of this will come together. we are in the middle of monumental events in this country. we are in the middle of a raging tore rent and as we look down river, anybody who looks and sees anything other than danger at this moment i believe is naive and it's time to wake up in this country, time for a coalition to force together and come together like steel, unbreakable from the left and the right who believes and has fidelity and is willing to fight for american democracy, the idea that the people are sovereign. i've been on the side of elections where i wasn't happy with the outcome. that's the way the ball bounces in a democracy and to give it up is to break faith in our ancestors and our children in a way that is unspeakable in its dereliction of duty and citizenship. >> steve schmidt, i am giving you a new title. calling you reverend steve schmidt because you took me to church and you put a finger on what everyone in my profession should be focused on, and that is you cannot talk about the big lie without also talking about the racial animus that is driving it. i've said it on air many, many times. i'm going to say it again. whiteness is a hell of a drug. thank you for coming to the "sunday show." we have topics galore and an all-star panel ready to sound off. stay with us. h us can you be free of hair breakage worries? we invited mahault to see for herself that new dove breakage remedy gives damaged hair the strength it needs. even with repeated combing hair treated with dove shows 97% less breakage. strong hair with new dove breakage remedy. most bladder leak pads were similar. until always discreet invented a pad 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day. it's the big sale, or the big presentation. the day where everything goes right. or the one where nothing does. with comcast business you get the network that can deliver gig speeds to the most businesses and advanced cybersecurity to protect every device on it— all backed by a dedicated team, 24/7. every day in business is a big day. we'll keep you ready for what's next. comcast business powering possibilities. it's now time to sound off on the biggest news of the week. there's a lot to talk about could he strid, immigration and congress's busy week ahead. the much larger reconciliation packages and keeping the government from shutting down on friday. joining me is my sunday soundoff panel and lucy caldwell. thank you for coming on "the sunday show." given the sermon that steve schmidt preached in the previous segment, i want to play tucker carlson from wednesday. >> in political terms this policy is called the great replacement. haitians are not bad people. they're great people. but we have no obligation to let them into our country. american citizens owe no debt to haiti. haiti has been an independent country for 200 years since 1804. for much of that time we have sent haiti a whole lot of aid. however sad and functional it is, it is not our fault, that's for sure. >> y'all, come get him. lucy, you're the newbie, i'm going with you. you can't talk about any of this without talking about racial animus, let's strip the rhetoric and say, white people. i'd love your reaction to what tucker is doing and the corrosive nature it's having on the republican party. >> well, it's very depressing to be a person who came up in republican politics as i did because what steve schmidt said is so appalling and disparaging. counter to all of the ideas on this or that view, a lot of the republican party today just comes down to white grievance and having the attitude to haitians who we owe a massive debt to based on all kinds of american intrusion and quasi american imperial lis stick behavior that hurt haiti, it isn't true and it's an incredibly destructive thing to say. this shouldn't be a right or left issue, this is a human issue. >> and i'm -- sorry. i'm just going to play this, connie, and come to you. listen to what the former guy had to say on this issue of what happened at the border with the haitian migrants. >> they're going after the riders of the horses, not the people that came in illegally. isn't that incredible? they just put them under watch. they're in big trouble, the riders of those horses. most people would say, they were doing one hell of a job, right? don't you think? they're in trouble. can you believe it? >> all right. i'm just going to ask a rhetorical question. who are those blacks for trump people behind him anyway? connie, what -- reaction to the abomination of what trump just said? >> well, here's what i'm thinking about trump these days, we -- none of us are doing this here. we must not treat him as entertainment, right? >> that is true. >> i'm not -- again, you're not doing that. my concern is we'll start doing it again because that's what happened in 2016. he is the racist in chief. we want more obedient people, he sees black people as not intellectual equals, and also all those children, he's completely blurring all of the photos we're seeing of the children. he wants fellow racists to believe that they will, indeed, be the more obedient people. i couldn't be prouder not to be associated with that ever. i'm afraid i'm not surprised that this is what the republican party has become. >> eugene, i mean, it was the picture seen around the world of that border patrol agent on horseback grabbing the haitian migrant and the blowback, bipartisan blowback was particularly fierce. how bad were those pictures and the video from the border for president biden and his administration, particularly with his most loyal voting block, and that's african-americans? >> he said black people have always had his back and he has ours, right? that is something he's said. he's repeated that over the years and i think that black people were looking at that, looking at people that looked like us even though they're from another country and, you know, whether or not there was a conversation like is that a whip? what is happening? it doesn't matter, i think, for a lot of people, right? you're looking at them and you're seeing something that reminds you and vice president harris talked about this, it reminds us of slavery. like it looks very much similar to that, run away slaves being caught and treated that way. this is for joe biden, obviously something they were worried about. they've been asked about it constantly. they've brought in alejandro mayorkas to talk about it. when they do that, that's when they know they have an issue, right? they're talking about how much they're going to change these things. they've talked about no more horses which isn't the whole issue but they are working trying to figure out these things. you saw vice president harris talking about this and talking about how terrible it was and how bad it was for the administration and how they're going to look into what exactly happened. so it is wrong for this president especially when you look at how black people are already a little frustrated with the lack of federal voting rights administration, with the lack of police reform legislation in this country, right? it's kind of becoming this pile lifting where black people are saying, what are you guys doing for us? >> right. and, you know, unfortunately a lot of that agenda from voting rights to police reform, it's kind of in the hands of the opposition, meaning the republican party, meaning they don't want to do anything to give president biden and the democrats a win even though it would help the country. before we go to break, eugene, i want to talk about covid. we were going to talk about boosters, but you announced on twitter that you were -- you had a breakthrough infection of covid and it was not pleasant. how are you feeling? >> it was all bad, jonathan. zero out of 10, would not recommend. it was terrible. at the beginning i kind of woke up on a sunday not feeling great. took -- you know, took that test. you have that feeling that something's going wrong. and spent ten days in the bedroom. i had chills like a strong cough. i was in extreme pain. never felt anything like this. i've had h1n1 and the flu. i'm telling people, get vaccinated. i'm feeling a little better but the cough is still there as you can hear. still congested. and mostly just really tired. you know, that is the thing that is kind of surprising is how easy it is for me to get out of breath and be tired and i'm hoping that changes over the next few days, next couple weeks but it's -- people -- if i hadn't been vaccinated i think it would have been a lot worse. >> well, eugene daniels, i am, one, happy you got vaccinated. two, happy you are feeling well enough to come to "the sunday show." you're into the going anywhere. connie's not going anywhere, lucy's not going anywhere. our conversation is going to continue after the break. stay with us. the break stay with us use we were created for officers. but as we've evolved with the military, we've grown to serve all who've honorably served. no matter their rank, or when they were in. a marine just out of basic, or a petty officer from '73. and even his kids. and their kids. usaa is made for all who've honorably served and their families. are we still exclusive? absolutely. and that's exactly why you should join. this isn't just a walk up the stairs. are we still exclusive? absolutely. when you have an irregular heartbeat, it's more. it's dignity. the freedom to go where you want, knowing your doctor can watch over your heart. ♪♪ start your day with crest 3d white and from mochaccinos to merlot, your smile will always be brilliant. crest 3d white brilliance. 100% stain removal, 24 hour stain resistance to lock 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it's time to ask your doctor about kesimpta. with downy infusions, let the scent set the mood. feel the difference with downy. with dramatic results? we're back with my panel as we sound off on the biggest news of the week. lucy. i'm going to play this sound from senator manchin from wednesday. i'll ask you about them on the other side. >> what is still a shame, truly a shame, is that they're using that as a hostage towards this. i think a good bill could be done whenever. it's going to take a lop more on that. and to hold up a bill that every part of this country needs, this just doesn't make any sense at all. >> lucy, you're involved in the republican politics. the question is simple, is senator manchin doing republicans' dirty work for them? >> senator manchin, we should file away senator manchin's worries somewhere near where we filed away susan collins' concerns. this is not productive and joe manchin really is doing the opposite of helping the democrats' agenda. he is hurting the democrats' agenda. for joe manchin to engage that way rather than really have a substitute discussion on what he wants changed. this is all about joe manchin. it's all about joe manchin for joe manchin. joe manchin's ideology is how can i extract the utmost power and influence here in the u.s. senate. he has done that by being the critical vote, one of two critical votes. basically preventing anything from getting passed. this is just another moment to remember. republicans are so much more effective at politics than democrats. this is another issue where democrats are holding theirselves hostage to someone in their own party. democrats are hostage to joe manchin. joe manchin is not hostage to anyone. this bill is not hostage to anyone. this is just another episode in favor of getting rid of the filibuster, right? >> right. right. connie, i mean, to lucy's point, are democrats justified in their upset with joe manchin, one? two, how much should we leaven our upset with joe manchin with the fact that, well, this is what happens when you have a 50-50 senate? >> well, this tight rope i'm walking is my married. i'm married to joe manchin. >> i'm sorry to put you in a spot with this question. >> get an earful from me pretty much every day on this. i get to say what you just mentioned. there are all of these republicans all the time. i don't think that's something to praise about the republican party. privately a number of them will make clear they disagree with something. they are lock step starting with their support group, right? no matter how upset they are privately. we cannot couldn't on republicans for anything. have we ever known of republicans to be one cohesive body? i am optimistic this is going to get better. i don't think anybody in the senate is going to be able to get it done. manchin is getting a lot of attention. >> eugene, in the time that we have left, i mean, time flies when you're having fun. i just want to -- you covered -- you're a co-author of playbook. you cover the hill. you cover these people. let's just play this incredible moment on the steps of the capitol first. >> that's congresswoman debby dingle and marjorie taylor green arguing with each other over abortion rights. let's play this thing that marjorie taylor green did earlier in the week on the house floor. >> this is a simple meme that you would find on the internet but this meme is very real. the green new deal surprise serves china and china only. >> jeepers. okay. wait, it's not over, eugene. element 9 please. sorry. this is from, she wants to imeach biden. eugene, we've got 9 seconds. who are these people? >> i -- look, so one of the issues with, you know, people like lauren boebert and marjorie taylor green is when you look at the things they're doing, they're not super interested in legislating, right? like this is not really what they're super interested in and that is an issue when it is about legislating, that is their job. and, you know, this -- they are cut from the donald trump school of politics, right? that is the name-calling. because what people may not have seen before debby dingle and her got into it, she had gone up to the people, to the other members of congress who were taking a picture after passing legislation about abortion rights and yelling at them, right? that is kind of where it all started and it's all about antics and all about seeming tougher than the other side and that is where our politics start. could you imagine, you know, ten years ago watching members of congress yell at each other on the steps of congress? that's not something we really would have thought we would be seeing. and it is -- to be clear, this is about marjorie taylor greene, not debby dingle. marjorie taylor greene has done this over and over. we saw her do it with alexandria ocasio-cortez and other folks. it's something we're going to continue to see in the republican party because what we haven't seen in the represent tan party, a need and interest in legislation, right? when was the last time we really talked about policy? and that is what -- that is what lauren boebert and her imeach joe biden and marjorie taylor greene yelling at members of congress, that's what that represents is a lack of interest in legislating. >> right. right. i see you chomping at the bit there, connie, to jump in. we've got to go to a break but i also want to say, i know i was laughing but i take your admonition very seriously that this is -- i take this very seriously and we should take these folks very seriously. we're going to come back because we have the senate soundoff where we talk about the other shoes. we'll do that next. do that next are the things america makes out here. the history she writes in her clear blue skies. the legends she births on home town fields. and the future she promises. when we made grand wagoneer, proudly assembled in america, we knew no object would ever rank with the best things in this country. but we believed 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discreet. are you tired of clean clothes that just don't smell clean? downy unstopables in-wash scent boosters keep your laundry smelling fresh way longer than detergent alone. if you want laundry to smell fresh for weeks, make sure you have downy unstopables in-wash scent boosters. we have to be able to repair the enamel on a daily basis. with pronamel repair toothpaste, we can help actively repair enamel in its weakened state. it's innovative. my go to toothpaste is going to be pronamel repair. let me just say, we're prepared, we're ready. >> moments ago speaker pelosi seeming to hedge on her promise to bring the bipartisan infrastructure bill to the house floor tomorrow. she still managed to convey a can do attitude about the incredibly consequential week congress has. back with me is my panel. connie, i had to cut you off because we had to go to a break. say your peace on what we were talking about in the last block. >> okay, jonathan. i was not about to chastise you for laughing. i want to hold up debby dingle. we need to stand up. we need to stand tall and we need to be loud on behalf of all of the generations of women coming after us who have a right to reproductive freedom. let's hold her up. couldn't be prouder of that generation, that particular kind of white woman. that's all i wanted to say. >> all right. say that, connie. now let's talk about the week ahead for congress with the house, we just played the sound of speaker pelosi talking about sort of where the votes may or may not happen. she said, i'm not bringing something to the floor unless it has the votes. well, let's have a listen to what pramila jayapal said on cnn moments ago. >> we're ready to vote for both. we are excited to vote for both and we will vote for both but we need to actually get the reconciliation deal done. i don't believe there will be a vote. >> you don't think there's going to be a vote tomorrow? >> the speaker is an incredibly good vote counter and she knows where her caucus is. >> the votes aren't there? >> the votes aren't there. >> eugene, the votes aren't there for a vote tomorrow but the votes aren't there permanently. >> >> pramila jayapal is the one that's being realistic. we all know nancy pelosi knows exactly what she's doing. she's pulled rabbits out of her hat at the last minute many times over the years. it's hard to see stopping a government shutdown, how they're going to get this done, right? something that's important to remember is progressives are the folks who are leading with what it was at the beginning, which was there was supposed to be a two track way to do these two bills. they were supposed to move in tandem. moderates are the ones that changed the gateway. that's something folks in the white house are frustrated with and progressives are very frustrated with. the idea these were going together, the democrats were going to look united and get something done to change the lives of folks in america, that is what they were looking forward to. now things do look pretty precarious. >> right. to that point, let's have a listen to what senator booker said on "meet the press" on this point. >> to get half of this done and leave mothers who are looking for affordable child care, americans looking for lower cost prescription drugs, to leave that on the way side of families that need that child tax credit, to leave those folks on the way side is unacceptable to me. i've seen the best of intentions. i want a more real guarantee. >> that sort of gets to what congressman pokehan was saying in the last hour about the values that are in these bills. but, lucy, i need to come to you because i'm seeing this comment from texas governor greg abbott, what he said on fox related to the horsemen on the border. have a listen to this. >> the president said going after the border patrol who were risking their lives and working so hard to try to secure the border, if he takes any action against them whatsoever i have worked side by side with those border patrol agents. i want them to know something, if they are at risk of losing their job in a president that is abandoning his duty to secure the border. you have a job in the state of texas. i will hire you to secure our border. >> lucy, what -- your reaction? >> well, first of all, i mean, i would just like to say as westerner riding horses, it doesn't matter whether they were whips or reins, taking a rein and sort of making that motion is very aggressive and i have read all the commentary on both sides and i watched the videos myself and there's no question that those images are very, very disturbing and, i mean, not to have to give a physics lesson, but a rein that is being spun rapidly if it makes contact with your body, that is going to be a thing that is very injurious. in general we don't want border patrol agents inflicting harm on people who are seeking aid and refuge. so now let's get to greg abbott. it is such a shame when we even have to spend time on this sort of idiocy of greg abbott but this is not surprising at all. this is another motion of republicans moving from the rule of law to really normalizing vigilant tee justice or in this case vij lan tee injustice. with all of these things, all of the things we've talked about today whether it's the replacement theory or any number of these things, realize this, republicans in power are saying the quiet thing out loud. don't let them get away with it and don't act like these are people who can be reasoned with on the hill, anywhere else. >> right. right. >> connie, real quickly. let me play what secretary mayorkas had to say on "meet the press." >> the performance of border patrol is the subject of an investigation and the facts that are adduced in that investigation are going to be determinative, but i think the entire american public correctly and necessarily were horrified by what the images suggested. they conjured up such a dark past that we have not entirely put behind us. >> and, connie, in the 30 seconds we have left, your reaction to the secretary? >> exactly. they had their dogs on children in the '50s and the '60s and now they have their horses. i agree with lucy, having grown up around horses, too. we didn't have any but many of our friends, those are big, mighty beasts and you know to respect them if you're raised around them. what a legacy. >> indeed. connie schultz, lucy caldwell, eugene daniels, thank you all very much for coming to "the sunday show." coming up later, a new exclusive bombshell report mbia hoo news. kidnapping, assassination and the london shootout inside the cia's secret war plans against wikileaks. one of the co-authors joins alex whit. a reality check on what's up on capitol hill this week. we'll do a reality check on the bye line. e line ♪♪ i thought i was managing my moderate to severe crohn's disease. then i realized something was missing... ...me. my symptoms were keeping me from being there for her. so, i talked to my 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the joy of movement when you really need to sleep you reach for the really good stuff. new zzzquil ultra helps you sleep better and longer when you need it most. it's non habit forming and powered by the makers of nyquil. new zzzquil ultra. when you really really need to sleep. hysteria, like controversy in washington, is usually a manufactured phenomenon. when it comes to the increasingly vocal worry that congress will not raise the debt ceiling, hysteria is real and wanted. all of us and the global economy would be in for a world of hurt if congress, democrats and republicans, fails to act. but here's mitch mcconnell days after declaring that democrats, quote, will not get senate republicans' help with raising the debt limit. >> my advice to this democratic government, the president, the house, and the senate, don't play russian roulette with our economy. step up and raise the debt ceiling to cover all that you have been engaged in all year long. >> that's not how any of this works. raising the debt ceiling is not a blank check for future spending. it's an increase in the legal limit on how much the federal government can borrow to pay for what it has already bought. think of it like this. you and a group of friends have stuffed yourseves silly at swank restaurants all month. you plunk down the credit card every time the treat comes, your treat. when your statement arrives, you're informed you have gone over your spending limit and you must pay the balance by the due date. you ask for an increase in your limit to cover the expense. bank says no. now, you're delaying payment on other bills and rummaging the couch cushions and coat pockets for whatever money you might have on hand to cover the expense. according to a report released by the bipartisan policy center on friday, that due date or x-date, the day when the u.s. government crashes through the debt ceiling, is somewhere between october 15th and november 4th. now, here are the real world consequences of that happening. vpc estimates between october 15th and november 15th, in that 30-day period, treasury would have $660 billion in bills to pay, but only $401 billion on hand to pay them. if the u.s. paid the interest on treasury securities, federal salaries, social security benefits, et cetera, it could end up leaving unemployment insurance, military retirement benefits, pandemic relief for state and local governments unpaid. and to put a finer point on the hell that awaits us, if october 15th is indeese the day borrowing authority runs out, the u.s. government could have only $27 billion to pay $43 billion in bills due that day. the full faith and credit of the united states to fulfill its financial obligations has made it the underpinning of financial markets and the global economy. for the united states to miss even one payment, one payment, would put everything at risk. interest rates could spike, financial markets could crash. the impact on your pension or retirement accounts could be serious. not to mention all the delayed or unsent checks to veterans, the elderly, federal employees. notice i'm using the conditional tense. that's because what we're talking about is so unprecedented, no one could predict how bad things could get. all anyone knows for sure is it would be bad. imagine what would happen if you skipped out on even one mortgage, student loan, or credit card payment. when we went through this nonsense in 2011, our credit rating was downgraded and it cost the treasury $1.3 billion iphigher borrowing costs. remember, we are the treasury. in washington, everything is a game. the battles seem remote, the consequences nonexistent. but mcconnell is right about one thing. not raising the debt ceiling is a dangerous game of russian roulette with our economy. but by withholding republican votes to raise it, he's the one holding the gun. i'm jonathan capehart, and this has been the sunday show. are you tired of clean clothes that just don't smell clean? downy 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[sighs wearily] here, i'll take that! woo-hoo! ensure max protein. with thirty grams of protein, one gram of sugar, and now with two new flavors! (vo) at t-mobile for business, unconventional thinking means we see things differently, so you can focus on what matters most. whether it's ensuring food arrives as fresh as when it departs. being first on the scene, when every second counts. or teaching biology without a lab. we are the leader in 5g. #1 in customer satisfaction. and a partner who includes 5g in every plan, so you get it all. without trade-offs. unconventional thinking. it's better for business. (upbeat pop music throughout) in business, setbacks change everything. so get comcast business internet and add securityedge. it helps keep your network safe by scanning for threats every 10 minutes. and unlike some cybersecurity options, this helps protect every connected device. yours, your employees' and even your customers'. so you can stay ahead. get started with a great offer and ask how you can add comcast business securityedge. plus for a limited time, ask how to get a $500 prepaid card when you upgrade. call today. a very good day to all of you from msnbc world headquarters here in new york. welcome, everyone. we're approaching high noon in the east, 9:00 a.m. out west. we start this hour with breaking news on a deadly derailment of an amtrak train in montana, and right now, at least three people are dead and as many as 50 others have been injured. one passenger described the derailment as extreme turbulence on an airplane. a 14-member ntsb go team is expected on scene in joplin, montana, toold, to figure out what caused the train and its cars to roll off the tracks. let's go to jake ward who is monitoring the developments. what do we know, jake, as i welcome you, about the derailment and the investigation thus far? >> reporter: good morning, alex. at this point, amtrak is saying approximately 141 passengers and 16 crew members were onboard the train, which was headed westbound towards seattle and portland. and at about 3:00 p.m. local time, went off the tracks. about eight cars derailed. now, this was outside montana,

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