♪ when the saints go marching in, oh when the saints go marching in ♪ >> another addition to the registry is a 1941 recording of franklin dell nor roosevelt's lighting of the community christmas tree. winston churchill joined him just weeks after the attack on pearl harbor. their sign of unity was broadcast around the world. >> it is a strange christmas eve. almost the whole world is locked in deadly struggle. american culture is not, all serious. and neither is the registry. other inductees include lady marmalade by la belle. celebration by cool and the gang. and a song that always gets me misty-eyed. the rainbow connection by kermit the frog from the muppet movie. it's the top of the hour and it's so good to be with you tonight. right now, some folks in georgia are protesting new voting laws. covid cases on the rise nationwide and asylum seekers continue to push toward the border. but the president has his focus on infrastructure. why? well, the answer may be on capitol hill. we'll take you there. plus, we have new details about another shooting. this time in virginia. president biden wants congress to take action. but are we solving the right problem? the parent of a newtown survivor joins us in a bit. and -- britney spears' fight over her conservatorship. 1.5 million people are in situations like hers. fighting an almost-unwinnable battle for their legal rights. now, california lawmakers are advancing bills for reform. from nbc news world headquarters in new york, i'm joshua johnson. welcome to "the week." this week, three major stories dominated the news cycle. all of them are putting pressure on the biden administration, and democrats to rethink the filibuster. tonight, three people are in custody in virginia beach over shootings that have killed at least two people. that incident comes after two gunmen in two cities have taken 18 lives, in less than a week. and all of this is reigniting the gun-control debate. also, the situation on the southern border remains dire. we're learning more about a 9-year-old girl who died while trying to cross the rio grande. 9 years old. her death comes as border-patrol agents announced they are on pace to break recent records for monthly crossings. and hundreds. protesters took to the streets in georgia today. after a sweeping new election law that overhauls how 10 million people will vote. president biden took to the podium, on thursday, for his first, solo press conference. but, he identified a different priority, that's next on his list. >> successful presidents, better than me, have been successful in large part because they know how to time what they're doing. decide priorities, what needs to be done. the next, major initiative is -- and i will be announcing it friday in pittsburgh in detail -- is to rebuild the infrastructure, both physical and technological infrastructure of this country, so that we can compete. and create significant numbers of really good-paying jobs. >> now, the president misspoke a bit. he later clarified that the infrastructure proposal rolls out on wednesday in pittsburgh. it's set to have a price tag of $3 trillion. two of the 3 trillion will reportedly go towards physical infrastructure. bridges, roads, tunnels, things like that. $1 trillion will target human infrastructure. things like universal, preschool or free community college. the funds will come, partly, from a tax hike on corporations and americans earning more than $400,000 a year. mr. biden's team has floated the possibility of splitting these bills up, passing the physical infrastructure bill with bipartisan support. and pushing through some of the more progressive parts with budget reconciliation. but, even this approach faces hurdles in the senate. republicans there are expected to oppose the bill's tax hikes and the threat of a filibuster remains. now, lately president biden has signalled a willingness to reform the filibuster. at his press conference he called it a relic of the jim crow era but why has he not pushed to abolish it? here's what he said. >> successful electoral politics is the art of the possible. let's figure out how we can get this done and move in the direction of significantly changing the abuse of even the filibuster rule, first. >> so if the filibuster remains a threat, what is possible for the president's agenda? is the art of the possible driving his focus on infrastructure? joining us now to break all this down are eugene daniels, white house correspondent for "politico," and an msnbc contributor. and also with us is nbc political reporter, vaughn hillyard, joining us from capitol hill. good to see you, gentlemen. let me start with you. the art of the possible. is that the thought process behind the infrastructure bill? that while we fight through all these more contentious issues, that seems like the low-hanging bipartisan fruit? >> it seems like their best go at getting significant reforms and significant projects passed and that is why there are some report here this week that potentially the biden administration, with congress, would look to separate this infrastructure package. to make part of it focus there on your traditional-physical infrastructure. your roads, bridges, highways. and then, make an additional package that would be that expanded, the way that you call it -- the -- the human infrastructure. that would be universal-pre-k. free community college. expansion of broadband. those sort of investments there, that they are a little bit more questioning in terms of whether they could get republican support. but what you saw, this week, again, is really no republican senators step forward. and suggest that they are going to get behind any democratic infrastructure package, let alone one that is anywhere from $3 trillion to $4 trillion. and that is why, when mitch mcconnell, the senate-minority leader, stepped out and said that he believes that this infrastructure package would just be, in his words, quote, a trojan horse -- horse for tax increases. you know, president biden's announcement here, this-upcoming wednesday with this infrastructure package. it's hard for democrats to not look at this infrastructure package as being their one opportunity, if they were to use reconciliation, to get a major piece of legislation through the senate. >> well eugene, i have to admit. like, when i look at some of the things that are supposedly in this infrastructure package. like, free community college is not roads, tunnels, bridges, airports, seaports. that feels like the kind of thing that is a bit more of a stretch. especially since infrastructure is kind of the joke in washington for bipartisanship, writ large. like, what can we do together? bridges? like, what's that we say when we don't know what we can do together. >> right. you're 100%, right. it was kind of a joke during the trump administration, right? that infrastructure week was coming and it never actually came. and so here we are. you know, not even 100 days into the biden administration and they are attempting to do this. and the thing that, you know, we -- we saw it happen with the covid relief bill. is that when they say bipartisan, they don't always mean republicans in congress, right? they are talking about whether or not something they want to do is popular, within the -- the american public. so that's something that is really important. and you're right. it is kind of complete rethinking of what infrastructure is and it goes to -- it goes further than roads and bridges. it goes further than potholes in the streets. and they are using this as a gateway to fix other issues in the country. they talked about racial equity. and there's this acknowledgment in the biden administration that rising doesn't always lift all votes. and they are being a little creative with what is infrastructure. we talk about that human infrastructure. they are also talking about rural-broadband internet. getting more of that. and also, climate-change issues, getting more green energy. so, has a lot of different things in this 3 to $4 trillion bill that vaughn said it's going to be very hard for them to find ten republicans to get on board even with the road-and-bridges aspect of this. because at this point, if you are going to pay for it with tax hikes, republicans have now found a religion on raising -- raising the -- raising the debt in the country. that was not a concern, too much, in the trump administration. and so that's not something they are going to be super interested in having to do with, at all. >> vaughn, after the shooting in boulder this week, here is part of what the president said in response to legislation on gun control. watch. >> the united states senate, i hope some are listening. should immediately pass the two house bills that close loopholes in the background-check system. these are bills that receive votes with both republicans and democrats in the house. this is not and should not be a partisan issue. this is american issue. it will save lives. american lives. and we have to act. we should also ban assault weapons in the process. vaughn, what's the path look like for those bills in the senate right now? >> well, right now for the next two weeks, the senate and the house are in recess. they are not here on capitol hill. in those two house bills that would in part expand background checks. right now, there is no republican that has indicated support for either of those bills. but also democrat joe manchin has said that he is not currently supportive of either of those measures. we should note, senator chris murphy, democrat, suggested that he had conversations with chuck schumer. that there would be conversations, background conversations, behind closed doors. republicans and democrats. an attempt to work together to find some sort of bill that could potentially get 60 votes because as eugene said, again, democrats just two months into this administration are already facing the reality that that filibuster proof -- essentially, 60 votes is a tough hurdle for them. we are talking about that infrastructure package as well and that's why reconciliation, potentially, could be used. one-time opportunity to pass infrastructure with a simple majority if, in fact, they are able to get every democrat on board because, again, two months into this administration. the biden administration is having a tough time finding where they can actually achieve a legislative victory right now. >> well, yeah, and we are still trying to see whether or not the administration is able to set a tone with congressional republicans, in terms of what they can do together. if there is any piece of this infrastructure bill, say, if they strip it away through the process of negotiating and say, okay, we can't do this. we can do that and we can pass all of this together. does that set a bar for low-hanging fruit? or is he able to do things that are more audacious? that, i think, remains to be seen. eugene, before i have to let you go, i wonder what your reaction was to part of the press conference and what was discussed? or rather, what was not discussed. covid. no questions on covid, at the press conference. what about that? >> there wasn't one. and he -- you know, the president started the press conference talking about covid. he made news, upping, doubling the amount of vaccines they say they are going to get within the first 100 days. and there are a lot of and there are a lot of questions still about what is happening with the covid relief. how the rollout is going after that $1.9 trillion bill was signed into law. how is that working out? when are kids going to be back in schools full time? and i think it was, you know, they didn't go to all the reporters. i know, my colleague, anita kumar, was there. so next time, if they go to her she is ready for them but i do that this administration feels like they are doing really well when it comes to that, they are still getting high marks. but at some point, when i talk to experts, health experts especially, they say we're getting all these vaccines. people are getting shots in arms. however, at some point, there is going to be a surplus and they're not going to have all the people who are excited to get shots. people who may not have access to the shots. people who have vaccine hesitancy. you know, we have been talking about black and brown people but also a lot of white republicans have vaccine hesitancy because of vaccine misinformation. so the administration's going to have to focus on that. so they have a lot. >> yeah. >> it will be interesting to see how long that hesitancy lasts, especially as more states are opening vaccinations up to all adults. that may change the calculus for some folks. eugene daniels, white house correspondent for "politico." and nbc's vaughn hillyard, gentlemen, thanks very much. coming up. the fight -- a fight against time in the suez canal. a jammed cargo ship is delaying $400 million of goods per hour. have they made any headway? we will have an update from cairo. and later, the britney spears' conservatorship fight is exposing some big issues with cases like hers. now, california lawmakers say they are ready to take action. we'll explain why conservatorship may be ripe for reform. but first, richard lui is here with the headlines. >> hey, joshua. good evening to you. police in los angeles have cleared out a large, homeless camp in the neighborhood of echo park. reportedly arresting residents who refuse to leave and at one point, nearly 200 people lived in the public park. officials saying the park will be closed for repairs. dozens were reportedly called in myanmar on the deadliest day there since last month's military takeover of the country. international condemnation resulted. multiple diplomatic missions releasing statements mentioning the killing of civilians including children. protests show no sign of easing. and the city of baltimore will officially no longer prosecute drug possession, prostitution and other low-level crimes. that started as an experiment last year to reduce the spread of covid-19 behind bars and since then, nearly all categories of crime have declined in baltimore. more of "the week" with joshua johnson, right after the break. d for work or play. with safety and tech to keep you connected. supported by a five-star sales, service and finance team. and backed by the one star you know. so, go the extra mile. it's never crowded because so few have what it takes to go there. mercedes-benz vans. losing a tooth didn't stop you but your partial can act like a bacteria magnet, putting natural teeth at risk. new polident propartial helps purify your partial and strengthens and protects natural teeth. so, are you gonna lose another tooth? not on my watch! ♪ the calming scent of lavender by downy infusions calm. laundry isn't done until it's done with downy. this is an athlete, twenty reps deep, sprinting past every leak in our softest, smoothest fabric. she's confident, protected, her strength respected. depend. the only thing stronger than us, is you. see every delivery... depend. every yikes... and even every awwwwwwww... wait, where was i? introducing self protection from xfinity. designed to put you in control. with real-time notifications and a week of uninterrupted recording. all powered by reliable, secure wifi from xfinity. gotta respect his determination. it's easy and affordable to get started. get self protection for $10 a month. it's like being in a traffic jam. and every minute you're stuck costs you time and money. that might help explain why the cargo ship stuck in the suez canal matters. right now it's costing the world's economy an estimated-$400 million per hour. the suez canal operates about 12% of the world's marine traffic. this blockage is raising oil prices. it's also disrupting supply chains for livestock, electronics, and supplies for car manufacturing. and that is why the u.s. government is offering to step in. nbc's raf sanchez has the latest from cairo. hey, raf. >> joshua, rescue crews say the next-24 hours could be critical as they try to take advantage of a period of high tide. they are hoping that the higher water levels may raise the "ever given" off of the sand bank that it is currently stuck on. and hopefully, get it moving back out into the suez canal. officials said at a press conference earlier today that the ship's rudder and its engine both appear to be working. now, that is good news because it means that if they are able to dislodge the ship from the sands, it should in theory be able to sail, under its own power, out of the canal zone. but those same officials say they're already looking at a pretty desperate fallback option. that is to send cranes by ship, alongside the "ever given." and start unloading some of those 20,000 containers onboard the ship. the idea is to reduce its weight, which would hopefully make it a little easier to get it moving but this is a complicated and dangerous maneuver at the best of times and this is not the best of times. they are not doing this in port. these cranes would be operating from other ships. and they are basically in the middle of the desert. it's not clear how long this option would take if it comes down to it. egyptian officials say they would potentially accept american-technical assistance because it's such a complicated operation. one of the major risks associated is, if you remove those containers in the wrong sequence, you can upset the balance of the ever given. and potentially cause it to capsize. now, if you think having a ship of that size stuck in the suez canal is a problem. having a ship of that size capsize would be a major, major, unheard-of disaster. real pressure on egyptian officials right now to try to find a way out of this situation. more than 300 ships are currently waiting at anchor at both ends of the canal. waiting to go through. hundreds more are scheduled in coming days. some ships are having to take a tough decision. do they wait for the canal to reopen? or do they take the long route to europe, going all the way around africa? that adds about ten days to the journey. it's more expensive. it's more dangerous because of the risk of piracy. but right now, with no end in sight to this blockage in the canal, it's an option some ship captains are taking. joshua. >> thank you, raf. that's nbc's raf sanchez reporting from cairo. we have an update tonight on our coverage of the migrant children who are being kept in federal custody. we have learned this evening that the san diego convention center emergency intake site will receive its first-500 unaccompanied migrant children. according to a statement am from hhs, it will provide shelter for girls ages 13 to 17 and has the potential capacity for 1,400 beds. they will receive a medical check, provided clothing, we know that children are being tested for covid-19. toiletries, food, snacks as well as a place to rest. this is a facility that the government announced on wednesday it is now open. additional facilities are also being planned, including one at the convention center in san antonio. or and one at the san antonio expo center with capacity for 2,400 beds. but again, a number of migrant children, 500 to start. girls, 13 to 17, will be received at a new intake center at the san diego convention center. after this week's mass shootings, some say we need to take on america's gun culture. if that makes you think of the nra, then that may be the problem. who are america's gun owners, really? i asked you online and what you said gave me hope. i'll explain, just ahead. stay close. ♪ limu emu & doug ♪ excuse me ma'am, did you know that liberty mutual customizes your car insurance so you only pay for what you need? thank you! hey, hey, no, no, limu, no limu! only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ kevin bacon here. you know me from six degrees of well... me. but it's time to expand. see, visible is wireless with no surprise fees, legit unlimited data, powered by verizon for as little as $25 a month. but when you bring a friend every month, you get every month for $5. so i'm bringing everyone within 12 degrees of me. bam, 12 months of $5 wireless. visible. as little as $25 a month. or $5 a month when you bring a friend. powered by verizon. wireless that gets better with friends. ♪♪ if you have moderate to severe psoriasis or psoriatic arthritis, little things can become your big moment. that's why there's otezla. otezla is not an injection or a cream. it's a pill that treats differently. for psoriasis, 75% clearer skin is achievable, with reduced redness, thickness, and scaliness of plaques. for psoriatic arthritis, otezla is proven to reduce joint swelling, tenderness, and pain. and the otezla prescribing information has no requirement for routine lab monitoring. don't use if you're allergic to otezla. it may cause severe diarrhea, nausea, or vomiting. otezla is associated with an increased risk of depression. tell your doctor if you have a history of depression or suicidal thoughts or if these feelings develop. some people taking otezla reported weight loss. your doctor should monitor your weight and may stop treatment. upper respiratory tract infection and headache may occur. tell your doctor about your medicines and if you're pregnant or planning to be. ♪♪ otezla. show more of you. i don't know what to say about mass shootings anymore. the narrative by now we know how the debate's going to go. one voice we usually hear in the gun debate is a bit quieter than usual. the nra. that may be for good reason. and that may give the country an opportunity to advance this debate. a few weeks ago, the group was celebrating a big win in court. a colorado judge had struck down a ban on assault weapons in boulder. the judge ruled that the city did not have the authority to ban assault weapons under state law. and the nra supported that lawsuit. then the shooting in boulder happened. and the weapon? it was among the guns, prohibited under boulder's ban. the night of the shooting, the nra tweeted out an image of the bill of rights, and quoted the second amendment. the next day, it tweeted a statement pushing back at calls for gun control and expressing gratitude to first responders. last week, we talked about how the so-called culture war has driven political wedges between some of us and our loved ones. perhaps, no wedge cuts as deep as the second amendment. and few people have wielded that wedge more effectively than the nra's longtime leader, wayne lapierre. he spoke last month at cpac in orlando. >> gun-hating politicians, big tech, the media. they're all working together to shame us, censor us, cancel us, and have us submit to their demands. the nra will not submit. we will not allow them to define the second amendment in their terms. we will not surrender our freedoms. i promise you that. >> mr. lapierre says this as the nra is going through a very tough time. new york's state attorney general is suing the organization, accusing its leaders of using the nonprofit for personal gain. covid has been hard on the group's finances. it's trying to declare bankruptcy and reincorporate in texas. new york calls that an attempt to evade its investigation. the nra has shaken up gun control advocates over the years with a steadfast argument that we need more good guys with guns. after the shooting at sandy hook elementary school, mr. lapierre famously said the only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun. it was indelible, and to many people, offensive. so what will the nra say next? honestly, it might not matter as much as it once did. not when we can have a much better conversation about it on social media. which is an idea that sounds crazy from the start. you know, i put a politically charged question at an emotionally sensitive time on facebook and twitter and, wouldn't you know it, i feel better now. said no one, ever. not happening. except, it did happen. this week, i asked gun owners to weigh in on the shootings and atlanta and boulder. i also wanted to know what firearms they owned. part of me felt like this was just asking for trouble. a raw question, at a raw moment. but whenever i have asked america a question, you have never, ever let me down. quite a few of you are gun owners, including many who say they vote democratic or describe themselves as liberal. most of you own them for personal protection. makes sense, since polling shows that's why most gun owners own guns. that includes from nuisance animals like rattlesnakes. maria wrote, people who think we should ban all guns have no clue what normal people do with guns. this intrigued me. elaborate, i asked. in maria's case, her weapons had different purposes. a handgun in a night table for protection. and a shotgun to deal with animals. basically, everyone who said they own a gun said they support stricter rules. some of them said they own assault-style weapons, but they would give them up if it means making us safer. one man said he owns the kind of gun, the same kind, use the in the boulder-mass shooting. he bought it online, waited a week and a half and picked it up at a gun shop in town. in his view, the process should be more challenging and impossible to buy on an impulse. the only, real friction i saw was when folks tried to pivot the discussion towards policy. shifting from who are you, to what should we do? that's when it went from being engaging to being enraging. why can't we have the gun debate? because the debaters can't see each other. i don't even know if we're ready for that debate yet. not until we reframe who is on the other side from you. and until we redefine what the sides are. it's amazing what you can see when the nra is less of the picture. but make no mistake. it remains a formidable presence in american politics. this week, florida's legislature advanced a bill allowing concealed firearms in churches, including on any property that a church uses. many church groups meet in or near schools. this measure would get around florida's ban on guns on school campuses. the bill passed the statehouse. its counterpart, senate bill 498, has yet to pass. now, some churches meet in fairly remote areas. pockets of florida that might take a while for law enforcement to reach. kind of like sutherland springs, texas. that is where a gunman killed 26 people, and injured 20 others, during a baptist church service in november 2017. the gunman was stopped by this man. steven wolford, a former firearms instructor for the nra. and what did he stop the gunman with? an ar-15, that he removed from a safe and loaded as he ran toward the church. according to texas monthly, it wasn't his most accurate rifle but it was light, mobile, and could shoot quickly. if he had been using a different firearm, he might not have stopped the gunman as effectively. so, do you feel the same way about the nra as you feel about mr. wolford? how does someone like him factor into this? maybe he does. maybe he doesn't. but i'd rather debate gun laws with real people in mind. if it feels like i am complicating this issue, you're right. i am. and that's the point. america's gun culture is more complex than some lobbying groups would have us believe. we don't really know each other when it comes to guns. but many of us are eager to be known. i don't know what to say about mass shootings anymore. but i know who to say it to. you. i feel like i can hear you clearly without this debate being so deafening, at least right now. we can keep it from getting that way, again. we can choose not to sort ourselves into interest groups. we can choose to just be interested in each other. last week, i asked what you wish you could say to the loved ones you are estranged from because of our so-called culture war. let's carry that a step further this week and get more specific. what should people debating guns in america understand about you? e-mail us, the week at msnbc.com. or tweet us, we are @the week msnbc. be sure to tell us where you live. and if you use firearms, we would love to know what you own and how you use them. the week at msnbc.com. we will share some of your stories tomorrow. so, how should we deal with gun violence? especially with a clearer view of who america's gun owners really are. eric milgram is the parent of a newtown survivor and also a gun owner. he will join us when we come back. you're clearly someone who takes care of yourself. so why wait to screen for colon cancer? because when caught in early stages, it's more treatable. i'm cologuard. i'm noninvasive and detect altered dna in your stool to find 92% of colon cancers even in early stages. tell me more. it's for people 45 plus at average risk for colon cancer, not high risk. false positive and negative results may occur. ask your prescriber or an online prescriber if cologuard is right for you. i'm on it. sounds like a plan. ♪ you've got the looks ♪ ♪ let's make lots of money ♪ ♪ you've got the brawn ♪ ♪ i've got the brains... ♪ with allstate, drivers who switched saved over $700 click or call to switch i've lost count of how many asthma attacks i've had. i've been on and off oral steroids to manage my asthma. does that sound normal to you? 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well, a 2018 study from uc davis showed that nearly two-thirds of them are deaths by suicide. just over a third were homicides. public-mass shootings were two-tenths of 1% of all-firearm deaths. after these latest mass shootings, president biden called for action on gun control. but, if the goal is to reduce gun violence, is a focus on mass shootings the correct approach? joining us now is eric milgram, he is the father of two survivors of the sandy hook elementary school shooting in 2012. and he is the spokesman for newtown action alliance, a legislative and cultural advocacy group. mr. milgram, good evening, welcome. >> thank you for having me, mr. johnson. >> before we talk about solutions, could i just pick up on where my essay left off in terms of who america's gun owners are? how do you think we need to modify our view of this population, in terms of -- of our debate? are we seeing it clearly? or are there things we're not seeing? >> no. i mean, you did -- and i really mean this. you did an excellent job of framing this. on the one hand, it's not as simple as some, you know, people like to make it. that there's one side, as if there is this false dilemma. we either have to ban all guns or we just do nothing. that's really where we are today, right? there's really been no federal legislative action since sandy hook. but that doesn't mean that the mindset of the country hasn't changed. there's been a lot of change at state levels, most of it good. some of it bad. but we are seeing that a couple years ago, the house passed -- they just sat in the senate like most bills that came from the house. mitch mcconnell sat on them, wouldn't do anything with them. so they were now passed or versions of them passed recently again. so we are starting to see movement but i think the way you framed that was very, very good. there is a lot of complexity here. but i don't think the issue is as complicated as we want to make it out to be. i do think, on some level, we get past the shouting. and the question, we, as a country, have to ask ourself. do we want to continue to live like this? is this acceptable? is question number one. question number two. the country that, you know, put people on the moon, that is now sending the u.s. navy to the suez canal to, you know, basically, unstick the ship that's stuck there. we can solve problems, if we are committed and have the will and really put our mind to it. this is not an untenable problem. >> well, and one of the problems that has been focused on this week, including in a clip from vice president harris i would like to play, has to do with assault-style weapons. here is part of what the vice president said. >> this is not about getting rid of the second amendment. it's simply about saying we need reasonable gun-safety laws. there is no reason why we have assault weapons on the streets of a civil society. they are weapons of war. they are designed to kill a lot of people quickly. >> how much do you think assault weapons, assault-style weapons, should be the focus, as opposed to other ways of reducing gun violence? >> the actual solution that we attempt needs to be multifaceted because -- and i like what you said earlier because i had -- and by the way, i am no longer a gun owner and it's really for moral, for ethical reasons. i owned many guns in my life. i used to really love to shoot. in fact, i still love to shoot. but i'm not going to do it until things change. it's an industry that is just morally bankrupt and i refuse to support it. but i think that, you know, the point you made was a very good one and i throw this back at people. when they know i am the father of two sandy hook survivors as well. mass shootings really only count for a very small percentage of deaths, that's true. that is actually true. first of all, 70% roughly of all the murders that happen in the united states are performed with firearms. it's the number one way to kill people, and if you think about what firearms are designed to do, it makes sense. so if you were going to get serious about, say, energy loss in your home. and you had an appliance that was responsible for 70% of all your energy consumption, you would be foolish to just ignore it. and that's what one side of this debate wants us to do. well, you know, there is lots of other problems. there is mental illness or there's, you know, drug cartels. you know, there are all this nonsense, you know, that -- that really has no, you know, in the end, it's not really going to the heart of the matter. it's kind of a, you know, secondary issue. so, the point i would make to this, though, is mass shootings have an outsized influence of the fabric of society. a point, which you made very, very well. and if you look at what they do to people's psyche. if you look at the damage beyond just the body counts, if you will. a lot of times, people focus on just the people who were killed. the people who were injured, the people who have lifelong traumas, whether they be physical, whether they be psychological. the cost is so great. and that often doesn't get factored in. >> can i ask you, very briefly before i have to let you go. i was going to ask more about policy but since you said you don't shoot anymore. i would just ask you before we go, what was the last straw for you? do you remember the moment you decided to stop shooting, before we go? >> it was actually after sandy hook. for me, i think the straw that broke the camel's back was in march of 2013, a few months after sandy hook. there was a vote for the manchin-toomey bill, which was a very modest bill. in my opinion, it really, you know, didn't go very far at all. and the fact that there were 54 votes in the senate and mitch mcconnell would not bring it up because of the 60-vote rule. he refused to even bring it up for a vote. and for me, that was really it. i was done at that point. >> eric milgram, i appreciate you making time for us tonight. thank you very much. >> thank you, sir. coming up. she made "toxic" a hit and now she is in a toxic situation. britney spears' conservatorship fight is sounding the alarm for california lawmakers. what's happening? and what if it happened to you? putting natural teeth at risk. new polident propartial helps purify your partial and strengthens and protects natural teeth. so, are you gonna lose another tooth? 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how do we know? the california legislature is considering new laws on the legal system of conservatorships. a conservatorship is a court arrangement that gives one adult, the authority and responsibility, to manage another adult's personal and financial affairs. it's, basically, aimed at protecting those, who cannot care for themselves, because of a mental or physical illness. more than 1.5 million people nationwide are under conservatorships. one of them is britney spears. she's been under the guardianship of her father, jamie spears, since 2008. this year, a "new york times" documentary profiled the pop star's high-profile case. and it raised questions about conservatorships in general. critics claim they're often pewsed, lack oversight and can be possibly to get out of. joining us now is zoe, an attorney with the aclu's program. >> good evening. thank you. >> what would you add to the definition that i may have left out? >> yeah. i think you're right. the conservatorship, it is called a guardianship in many states, is a system where the court takes away one person's civil rights. one person's chance to make their own decisions, to lead their own life, and gives the right to make those choices to another person who is the conservatorship or guardian, i'm sorry, the conservator or the guardian. >> can we clear the celebrity aspect out of the way? people will hear britney spears and they won't even hear the rest of the story unfortunately. i think this is worthy of it. what is it about this situation that you think people should empathize with regardless of what they think of her as a pop star? >> britney spears' case from what we know from the outside is very familiar. from looking at how conservatorships and guardianships work across the country, we see people over and over, most of whom are not famous. most of whom do not have anywhere near the amount of money that britney spears has. we see people who because of the crisis, because of a disability, age-related disability like dementia, who lose their civil rights, lose the rights to make their own choices about their own lives, and can really never get that back. and that's an enormous thing to have happen to you. and it is not something that we should take lightly. it should really be used as we absolute last resort when there is nothing else. no other systems that can be put in place to protect a person and too often it the opposite. it is more of the first resort. the default system that happens when a person has a disability or is perceived as having a disability. >> why is it so hard to get out of conservativeships? if someone put me in for whatever reason, i assume it is not as easy as saying, hey, judge, i would like to undo it. what makes it so hard to undo? >> so there are systems to go to to have a court and ask for it to be terminated. in practice, it is extraordinarily hard to get them lifted. i think part of it is that courts are very reluctant to lift conservatorships and there's a little catch 22 that people get stuck in. where if you're doing well and you go to the judge and you say, look, i'm doing great. the judge says, see? that's why you need the conservatorship. if you're not doing well, the judge says, see, that's why you need the conservatorship. so even though there are in law ways to, in theory get conservatorships terminated, it is extremely difficult. >> there was a conservatorship attorney who told the "l.a. times" that these were forms well intended but they need overhauls in the courtroom where judges and attorneys have created systems insquint the laws that are already on the books. what do you make of that in terms of where the reform effort should go? >> yeah. i think this is reforms that need to be made really all down the line. i think the reforms being proposed now are really important. but i think that's true, that what happens in practice is really problematic, and that there is a real lack of awareness that conservatorships are not just a benign intervention. there's a lot of paternal i in this idea that if you have a disability, or you're perceived to have a disability, then what you want doesn't matter anymore. it is just what is for your own good. and i think the other overhaul that we want to see is to try to change the process before people get into the courtroom. before you're in the world of being at risk of a conservatorship. there are so many alternatives to conservatorship and guardianship that exist and less restrictive and don't involve taking away your rights, that don't involve the court being involved. those should be really meaningfully tried before you get into the process of starting to seek a conservatorship. and i would love to see that codified in statutes. >> elaborate a little more before i let you go for people who may be headed for the conservatorship process. what other questions should they be asking before we go? >> yeah. they should be thinking about what are the issues that lead to the, someone thinking they need a conservatorship and what systems could you put in place to address those issues? so there is a concept called supportive decision making. you would find friends and supporters who can help you think through the pros and cons of your decisions. help you make your own decisions. styles it would be as simple as a power of attorney or an agreement to share medical information to have someone help you make your own choices. those are much less permanent. >> an attorney with the aclu disabilities rights project. thank you very much. >> thank you. >> and thank you for making time for us tonight. come back sunday night at 9:00 p.m. eastern. democratic congressman jim clyburn of south carolina will join us to talk about voting rights. that's tomorrow night at 9:00 eastern here on msnbc. until we meet again. i'm joshua johnson. to those of you who observe, i hope you have a joyous and kosher passover. good night. kosher passover. good night with visible, you get unlimited data for as little as $25 a month. but when you bring a friend, you get a month for $5. so i'm bringing everyone within 12 degrees of me. bam, 12 months of $5 wireless. visible. wireless that gets better with friends. ♪♪ forget what your smoking-hot moms and teachers say, just remember my motto. if you ain't first... you're last! woo-hoo! cell phone repair. did you know liberty mutual customizes your car insurance so you only pay for what you need? 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