Get into it, lets grab tonights latest headlines. Tonights latest headlines. Michelle thank you. Good evening to you. Well, the top story from the newsroom is that a man who broke into Windsor Castle armed with a loaded crossbow in order to kill the late queen has been sentenced to nine years in jail for treason. Jaswant singh wandered around the grounds of Windsor Castle for about two hours on christmas day, 2021, while the late queen was still in residence. The old bailey in residence. The old bailey heard today hed been encouraged to do so by an Artificial Intelligence virtual girlfriend with which he had exchanged thousands of messages. The judge said jail was non psychic chaotic and therefore culpable when he devised his plot. But had lost touch with reality and become psychotic by the time he carried it out. Sir, Justice Hilliard delivered the sentencing earlier on today. Sentencing earlier on today. The defendant harboured homicidal thoughts, which he acted upon before he became psychotic. There is psychotic. There is a significant risk to members of the public of serious harm occasioned by the commission, by the defendant of further specified offences. Specified offences. Now, the coach driver in the wirral bus crash has been described as having suffered an event at the wheel before which the incident before the incident killed both him and a 15 year old girl, according to a Coroners Court today , cctv Coroners Court today, cctv footage from inside the cab of the coach showed the driver, David Shrimpton , slumped to the David Shrimpton, slumped to the left while he was driving. 54 left while he was driving. 54 people were on the bus when it overturned on the m5 three last friday. Sir keir starmer has revealed an extra 700,000 urgent dental appointments would be introduced under labour in plans to improve the nations oral health. The party would also introduce supervised toothbrush washing sessions in schools across england to tackle preventable tooth decay in children. People in most need of treatments, including fillings and root canal work, would be prioritised under proposals aimed at rescue paying nhs dentistry as its called. The plans would be backed , labour plans would be backed, labour says, by £111 million a year, which they said would come from abolishing non domicile tax status. Sir keir says labour wants to target areas where people cant get a dental appointment. Too many places across the country theres a desert where you cant get an nhs dentist, so we also have a scheme in place to ensure that we get newly qualified dentists into those areas. So thats the immediate fix. But obviously in the longer term we need to do preventative measures. So the third limb of measures. So the third limb of this is tooth brushing at schools where weve got the biggest problems in our breakfast clubs to make sure that children are brushing the right way and therefore we prevent some of the problems. Sir keir starmer now the cost of renting a property has increased to the highest level on record , and the average on record, and the average charge for a place to live, excluding london, is now almost £1,300 a month, which is the 15th consecutive quarter that that record has been broken. And that record has been broken. And its worse still in the capital with average rents rising to more than £2,600 a month. Thats double. The research by property website rightmove also shows that demand is higher with 25 enquiries per dwelling compared to just eight before the pandemic. The Prime Minister pandemic. The Prime Minister says he wants european leaders to unite and target people smugglers. Rishi sunak is in smugglers. Rishi sunak is in spain for the European Political Community summit, where hes going to be co chairing talks with the italian Prime Minister on the rising levels of illegal migration towards europe. The Prime Minister also spoke to ukraines president , Volodymyr Zelenskyy saying europe must face down the threat from russia. Now, the transport secretary says cancelling the northern leg of hs2 will allow for investments that fit the needs of the country. Thats after the Prime Minister unveiled a £36 million plan for a transport network called Network North to replace the northern section of the line. Former Prime Ministers bofis the line. Former Prime Ministers Boris Johnson and david cameron. However, both criticised the decision, saying that a once in a Generation Opportunity had been lost. Mark harper told gb news the facts, though, have changed. Every penny that we save from cancelling that, thats £36 billion and reinvesting every penny across the north, the midlands and the rest of the country on important transport, transport, infrastructure that the people of this country want. So i think thats just changing what were investing and still investing in transport, but having investments that fit the needs of the country and recognise the facts have changed about the costs of hs2 to now going back to events in ukraine and russia. At least 51 people have died after a Russian Missile hit a cafe and Grocery Store in the north east of ukraine. Its reported the victims had been holding a Memorial Service at the time. Ukrainian officials the time. Ukrainian officials have called it a heinous crime. It appears to be one of the biggest single civilian death tolls since the start of the war. Now in use here at home, the princess of wales has joined some of englands world cup winning Wheelchair Rugby League squad. She got stuck in as well at the event in hull, where she sat in a wheelchair for herself and gave the game a go. Kate, and gave the game a go. Kate, whos patron of the rugby football league, is there to promote inclusive equity in the sport , much to the delight of sport, much to the delight of the participants involved. The participants involved. Youre with jp news across the uk on tv in your car, on Digital Radio and on your Smart Speaker by saying play gb news this is britains news channel. Thanks britains news channel. Thanks for that, polly. I must confess , when the i must confess, when the headunes i must confess, when the headlines are on sometimes im busy organising my bits and pieces before i talk to you, but im sure i just looked up then and saw kit in a wheelchair. Did i . Is that. Did i just see that . I . Is that. Did i just see that . I . Is that. Did i just see that . I think i did. And if i did see that, is that a little bit odd . I dont know. I dont know what the rules are around these things. Get in touch. You tell me. I am Michelle Dewberry and i am with you until 7 00 tonight. The of the First Property the ceo of the First Property group, alongside group, ben habib, alongside me and the academic and ethnographer Lisa Mckenzie. Ethnographer Lisa Mckenzie. Every time youre on, people email in and go, whats an ethnographer . So lets get this out before we start. Its just a research method. Its just a way that i do research. So whether you do research specifically, not well, not well , not me, but all ethnographers, its about being embedded in a community. So i do community research. So i do community research. So i do community research. You any the wiser . Yeah you get in touch, you tell me whats on your mind tonight. Vaiews gbnews. Com is how you get hold of me. Or you can tweet me at gb news. I want to ask you about the working class tonight. Lots of you are already getting in touch with me about that topic. It seems to have got you all talking already. Many of you all talking already. Many of you are asking what does the working class comprise of these class even comprise of these days . The definition many of you suggesting seems to have shifted. Is it fit for purpose anymore . I dont know. I would add i would describe it probably the working class. If you need to go to work and earn a living, then to me, youre working class. If youre a trust fund baby or whatever, then obviously youre not. Thats how i would define it. And i also think even as you move up the income income levels, i still think youre working do you . Can working class. Do you . You can get in touch with me and tell me your thoughts on and well your thoughts on that and well come to that very come to that story very soon. But want to talk to but for now, i want to talk to you about property. Get this the average the are now average rents in the uk are now well, average rental well, the average rental property, should i say, has got 25 people inquiring about it. And average rent get this, and the average rent get this, outside of london now is £1,278 a month in london, £2,627. I mean, Goodness Gracious me , that mean, Goodness Gracious me, that is pretty eye watering stuff. Its led to a Big Conversation today. Ben habib and theres a real kind of dividing line in among people that are commenting. One school of thought is that landlords are taking the mick now and they are exploiting people and basically profiteering. And the other profiteering. And the other school of thought is that actually basic supply and demand , fair profiteering, fair capitalism. Hmm. Where are you capitalism. Hmm. Where are you on it . Well, i cant rule out the possibility that some landlords are taking advantage, but you know what were seeing playing out more generally. And i think is the root cause of this problem , is a spike in inflation problem, is a spike in inflation action. And with that spike in inflation has obviously come a massive increase in Interest Rates. And landlords who were used to paying close to nothing for their property are now having to finance very expensive mortgages as the 13 years only. If there was on a deal thats just expired and need needed redoing or if there was on a tracker or something. All mortgages as any mortgage taken before 2022 will go up in price. Consider doubly so if youve cut your cloth according to what Interest Rates were in 2021 or any of the prior 13 years before 2021, you will now be facing difficulty. Everyones mortgage has gone up. So i think thatis mortgage has gone up. So i think that is the fundamental everyone. If youve fixed yourself in for i dont know, a five year deal or a ten year deal or whatever, then your mortgage hasnt increased just because the no. The base rates have no. Okay. Thats quite rare, though. Most fixes to the extent people 2 or 3 years. People do fix the 2 or 3 years. So everyones rate is going to is going to go up imminently or has gone up and so that is i think thats the principle biggest component of the rise in in rents. The other big component, of course, is the drive towards net zero and the required for landlords to make their properties compliant with an epc with an Energy Performance certificate of at least c by the time we get to 2027 or theyll be prohibited from leasing it. And then the third big driver of rents has been a move in taxation against landlords. So so if youre a private renter of property , you private renter of property, you own another property, you have to pay 3 extra stamp duty. If you own it in a corporate structure, you pay a greater stamp duty. Well, you used a landlord. You used to be able to offset the you used to be able to offset your interest costs and your operating costs against the income tax. Income before you pay tax. Now you cant do that. So and now you cant do that. So theres been a move against landlords. By the way, landlords. And by the way, successive governments have raided order raided landlords in order to finance their positions. And so finance their positions. And so were you the were seeing, you know, the result all those all those result of all of those all those things coming together. So in your mind, its all basic for above board . Well, im not above board . Well, im not saying its all above board, but im saying the general trend is dnven im saying the general trend is driven by factors outside the control of would be profiteering, rapacious landlords as well. Obviously, im not going to agree that at all. Agree with any of that at all. All i can agree that this is a problem thats been happening for many, many i mean, 40 for many, many years. I mean, 40 years we had right to buy years since we had right to buy since 1979. Whats happened is we just dont have enough affordable , good quality housing affordable, good quality housing for everybody , no matter what for everybody, no matter what income youve got. What i grew up, i lived on a Council Estate. Everybody on my Council Estate worked. We were all working worked. We were all working people and we had decent, good quality housing. And what has happened from right to buy successive governments, labour, tory, theyve all been the same. None of them has invested in housing and also weve had this shift from housing, meaning everything but home. So what housing is now, its Peoples Pensions is housing is , you pensions is housing is, you know, because weve accepted low wages, theyll think, well you know, my house prices are going up. So we always think that housing is perhaps savings or pensions more of an asset. Yeah an asset. Something to give your kids when actually a house should be a home. Do you think its a responsibility of the state of the government to provide working people with a home thats so i dont think that theres a responsibility to provide. Provide. But i think that housing is a human right because othennise, if you have no home, you have nothing. If you have no home, then investing in education or health care , none of that will health care, none of that will matter because you havent got a home. So how in its like a basic need , its like water. Basic need, its like water. Do you agree with that . Housing is a human right. I dont know if its a human right, but it is an absolute basic need. You need a roof over your head and need a food on your head and you need a food on your head and you need a food on your plate. Then whose responsibility so then whose responsibility is provide that . Is it to provide that . Well, ultimately, we well, ultimately, what we need successful economy and need is a successful economy and an meritocratic an economy which is meritocratic based. Were going based. And i think were going to of the subjects were to one of the subjects were going to talk about is meritocracy. And and im meritocracy. And i and im delighted talking about it delighted were talking about it because need meritocratic because we need a meritocratic based which based economy system which allows the entire economy to grow so we can create the wealth required to create the housing for the population. So for the population. So i completely agree with you , lisa, completely agree with you, lisa, by the way, that weve had 40 years of neglect in the housing market. We simply havent market. We just simply havent built enough but built enough housing. But the most spike in costs isnt most recent spike in costs isnt as a result of a long term failure that failure has been underlying and, you know, getting worse. But you know, the spike in costs has happened really in the last 12 months. And that, i think, is more to do with inflation. Interest rates. The driver i do think landlords are profiteering as well. I do think theres some profit earring. Were in a housing crisis were in a major housing crisis. Were in a major housing crisis. Were in a major housing crisis. Were in a major housing crisis. Sunak has housing crisis. Rishi sunak has said nothing about this this week. And there is some profiteering happening. Profiteering happening. Yeah, theres one other issue which i must mention is that weve had rampant immigration and, you know, last year we had and, you know, last year we had a net 600,000 people come into the country. Thats at least the country. Thats at least another 150,000 homes. You know, youve got a lot of were going to talk about immigration in particularly about solution to it, about the solution to it, whether not its more whether or not its more european cooperation. But anyway, youve companies anyway, youve got Companies Like i think serco and Companies Like i think serco and Companies Like that that are now proactively going into towns , proactively going into towns, cities, whatever, putting on events , as i understand it, and events, as i understand it, and actually almost marketing to landlords. Look you can come to us, we can give you long term contracts, we can give you fantastic rents, yada, yada yada, in order to put so called Asylum Seekers into to these properties. And a lot of people are getting quite tempted by that because the money on offer , why wouldnt they be attractive to them . The challenge is with that, obviously it then takes out that Housing Stock from people Housing Stock from local people that been living there that have been living there wanting to get the housing wanting to get on the housing ladden wanting to get on the housing ladder, says. Did you ladder, debbie says. Did you know that some landlords are now asking for pet rent . No, i did not know that, she says. And i shouldnt laugh. Its not funny, but i just think its a bit ludicrous. Shes telling me she looks at a property for £1,000, but no pets. Was allowed. But then said he would let pets then he said he would let pets in they paid £100 per cat per month. Okay, well, hes profit hearing. He is profiteering. Hearing. He is profiteering. Whats the. I need to know the end of that story. Debbie, did you take him up on that offer . Did you pay . I dont know how many cats you got. Did you take him up on that . And you pay your extra for cats . Your £100 extra for the cats . Very odd. I didnt think actually it was even allowed to do anyway, i think do that. But anyway, i think when it comes to landlords and were bit of the wild were in a bit of the wild west area, to be honest, there are some very good private landlords out there also out there, but there are also some cowboys well. Well, lots out there, but there are also so the cowboys well. Well, lots out there, but there are also so the very oys well. Well, lots out there, but there are also so the very good well. Well, lots out there, but there are also so the very good landlordszll, lots out there, but there are also so the very good landlords are. Ots of the very good landlords are getting with me. Ive getting in touch with me. Ive been inundated you been inundated with lots of you guys telling me some of your sums that what youre renting out your properties for a lot of people are not appreciating this kind of so called attack on landlords, out to me landlords, pointing out to me that lots of decent that theres lots of decent landlords out there. Richard says. We need rent controls to stop these vultures of greed. Cor blimey , ive got to say, by cor blimey, ive got to say, by the way, landlords often get a kick in. You want to see the stay of some tenants and some of the behaviour that goes on on the behaviour that goes on on the tenants side of the argument as well. That doesnt often get discussed, but i can tell you all tenants are not just innocent. Sweet laura abiding people that care for homes and leave them in a nice, decent state. Anyway, ill bring back some of your comments in just a couple of minutes. But i also have a lot to get through tonight, so i want to talk to you about working classes in this country. Are we failing them . Do you think you tell me. Radio. Hi there. Michelle dewberry with you till seven. The ceo of First Property group, ben habib, alongside me, as is the academic and ethnographer lisa mckenna kwasi very pleased to tell you on at the end of the story. Now debbie, who told us before the break that her potential new landlord wanting to charge £100 a month extra per cat to rent the property, shes got back in touch saying, she did not touch saying, no, she did not progress. Shes now found a landlord who does accept pets. Landlord who does accept pets. And she says, by the way, this was all going on in cornwall. If you are that landlord there, shame on you. It is a little bit shame on you. It is a little bit ridiculous. Its a bit petty, isnt he . Oh , see what he did there . Oh, see what he did there . Oh, see what he did there . Look, he loves it doesnt he. Look at his little face. You like it, dont you, ben . I was asking earlier on, i thought i saw a glimpse of Kate Middleton in or princess. What is it . Princess princess of wales. Of wales. Anyway, i thought i saw wales. Anyway, i thought i saw a clip of her in a wheelchair, and i wondered if that was appropriate. These days, lots of you in touch . Sam you been getting in touch . Sam says. In wheelchair says. Well, im in a wheelchair and culture is and i believe our culture is being diluted by outsiders getting in wheelchairs and pretending to be us. Philip says she was playing wheelchair rugby. Michelle, what did you think she was going to do . Pick up the ball and run away with it . That would be cheating. King michael very to michael says its very nice to see people experience for once what like to be in what it is like to be in a wheelchair. Will they go different opinions on that. There look, weve got there you go. Look, weve got a clip. I wasnt imagining it. You know, when you just was doing know, when you just i was doing lots different things, lots of different things, preparing program. Preparing ing for this program. And i thought, and i glanced up and i thought, im sure thats what ive just witnessed on my screen. There you scoring. I was just you go. Scoring. I was just about scoring goal, but about to say scoring a goal, but obviously dont mean i obviously i dont mean goal. I mean very good. She mean try and very good. She seems it, too. Its quite seems to be it, too. Its quite vicious that whenever ive vicious that spot whenever ive seen two and a half running seen it. Two and a half running into each other, dont they . Anyway, im going off on a massive tangent ill get back massive tangent so ill get back on shall i . Because on track, shall i . Because according first according to the uks first professor of social mobility, children from working class backgrounds apparently to backgrounds apparently have to be class clones if they be middle class clones if they want to succeed in education. Unconscious bias from teachers apparently makes working class students feel inferior. Really students feel inferior. Really ill start with you because you embed yourself in communities and you study them. Yes do you think there is a. Im also working class as well. Yes im a working class academic. A working class academic. A working class academic because working class people , believe it or not, can people, believe it or not, can read books and write books. Yes. Only picture books. Only picture books. Yeah. Do you see . So is there an unconscious bias . No, theres an unconscious bias . No, theres an unconscious bias . No, theres a conscious one. The British Class system is very overt , but class system is very overt, but its open. We know all about it its open. We know all about it and people are us snobbery and they use all different sort of types of cultural snobbery to make sure that people are in their place and why . Well, if you if you were middle class, if you if you were middle class, if you were a middle class, you know , professional and youve know, professional and youve got a kid, you know, you want to do the best for that kid, what if what if that child is not . Whats a middle class professional . Because as i would define working class, youve got to work for a living. Yeah, to go work for a living. Yeah, yeah. Youre yeah. So if youre a professional, i. E. Youre working, arent you then still working . No , i mean i look at so this no, i mean i look at so this is something that i write about and study. I think about and i study. So i think about class that its got of class that its got lots of different elements it. One is different elements to it. One is a wealth element, of course, the other is this things called capital. So theres cultural capital, which is education and cultural pursuits. Theres wealth , theres also social wealth, theres also social capital, which is about networks. Who are you networked into . Who are you networked into . And then theres something called symbolic capital as well, network capital. Thats you. You must be you must be like the king then if youre if you have these different segments, your network, youre a well networked man. Well, i dont network, actually. Ive of assumed actually. Ive kind of assumed networking. Its a its networking. I think its a its the lowest form of getting on in life. Is it . You know, i was life. Is it . You know, i was sort of well used it maybe well used, but, you know, ive been a kind purist all my life kind of purist all my life thinking that ive just got to do on and make it all do it on my own and make it all mine. No, but you know, thats the been. But, you the way ive been. But, you know, i think the points lisa were making are absolutely spot on. Delighted. Were on. And im delighted. Were talking mobility talking about social mobility in the because if the working class because if were functioning democracy were in a functioning democracy. Were in a functioning democracy , important people , the most important people are those the the country that those in the in the country that work. And i think youre right, work. And i think youre right, whether theyre coming poor whether theyre coming from poor backgrounds indeed im backgrounds or indeed im working class, i have to work in order to get by. And those are the people are the engines of the people are the engines of the country. Those are the people on whom we need to focus and we need to get people off dependency and into the working system we people to system. And we need people to fulfil their potential. We need meritocracy more than anything, and we need an environment in which meritocracy can be, can flourish, can be encouraged and flourish. And i sadly, what i think has happened over the last ten, 20, 30 years is that weve gone from a society based in the 19805, gone from a society based in the 1980s, which lisa might have a lot to say about the 1980s, but a society undoubtedly where meritocracy was championed, aspiration was created, and weve moved to a culture of dependency and abrogation of self responsibility into a kind of co dependent as a big, large economic organised ism. Rather than going forth and feeling emboldened to do stuff on on our own in the way that i felt i needed to when i left school and university. And by the way, i did it with great enthusiasm and ambition. I loved the idea of going out and conquering and going out and conquering and going forth and making the best for myself, creating a family. Et et cetera. And what et cetera. Et cetera. And what we need is to inculcate that aspiration and then to give people the ability de to deliver their own, to fulfil their aspirations. But we do have and what weve got to admit is we have deep class prejudices in this country. For example , accents, country. For example, accents, people judge you on accents, you know the way that i talk. Could i be possibly be an academic because ive got a nottingham accent and i speak in a rhythm which is a very working class rhythm. Well, people. But then i think because obviously to some people ive got a strong ish accent and i get criticised every single day. All you need to do is put my name into social media and you see the bile that i get said about me. Literally all day, about your accent. A lot of it stems from my accent, a lot of it stems from people will look, listen to me, and then they dont even listen to what im saying. Theyll listen to how it. And then to how im saying it. And then they prejudge my intellect. They will prejudge my intellect. And remember for when i was and i remember for when i was first my background was it. And i remember for when i was first my background was it. And i wanted to work in it because i wanted to earn money. And i remember when i used to work in the city, as we called it, in london, and i was always the only northerner. I was the only girl, and i got judged massively girl, and i gotjudged massively because thought was because people thought i was thick a woman in thick for being a woman in northern. I thought was northern. And i thought it was fabulous because sat there fabulous because i sat there and i all time, youre i thought all the time, youre thinking that im a bit dense. I am literally head down overtaking you within about five minutes. About three minutes. I earn about three times what they earn. I was much more senior. I was self employed. More senior. I was self employed , so never felt that, oh, and so i never felt that, oh, these people think that im a bit thick, so i need to sit in a corner. And i used to just corner. And i used to just think, you know, more fool you sunshine because you are not going to see me coming. But weve got to we have got to just acknowledge that there is prejudices is class prejudices in this country we are country that we are we are a class country. There are there are there is class prejudices in britain, very deep class britain, a very deep class prejudice. Rs its also prejudice. Rs but its also about networks. Who do know . About networks. Who do you know . Who call . Who can you call . Oh, he said, thats not important. Well, well, is. I mean, if well, well, it is. I mean, if you you to, if you want you if you need to, if you want it to be a barrister for and you need to have some work experience, if your mum and dad are both barristers, well that helps loads doesnt it, if youve if you wanted to be youve also if you wanted to be a you come off a a barrister you come off a Council Estate, you dont have those connections. Also can those connections. But also can you to work for for you afford to work for free for six months . Probably not have were going to have an were never going to have an ideal completely fluid social form of mobility. Form of mobility. Theres always going to be impediments. But i think its terrific to focus on it. And the terrific to focus on it. And the last point id just like to make is diversity, equality and inclusion, which is the promotion of ethnic minorities and minorities , sexual and religious minorities, sexual preferences, etcetera , over and preferences, etcetera, over and above meritocracy is the enemy of social mobility. Any dei is of social mobility. Any dei is the enemy of social mobility because it dumbs down meritocracy and meritocracy has to be at the heart of everything we do. Well, lots of you guys guys are getting in touch about this one, tommy says. I flinch every time i hear that saying , working time i hear that saying, working class. Youre saying were all workers. The term suggests workers. The term suggests talking down to people as if the speaker , whoever it is, thinks speaker, whoever it is, thinks themselves superior. Nick says themselves superior. Nick says theres no such thing as working class anymore. Maybe a couple of years ago , he says, go through years ago, he says, go through any Council Estate now its full of bmw and audi and stuff, he says. Basically working class is a of the past. Matt, do a thing of the past. Matt, do you agree with that . Adrian says working class when i was a boy, nearly everyone voted labour. They party for those they were the party for those working class manual physical jobs. He working class manual physical jobs. He says thats not the jobs. He says thats not the case now. He doesnt feel the case now. He doesnt feel the labour Party Supports the working gillian says class working man. Gillian says class is absolutely no longer relevant at all. Bernard says there is no such thing as working class. All there is now. We all work, but just some are low paid workers. Just some are low paid workers. And he says thats because Living Standards are far more superior now than they were in the 50s. Lots of you as well asking what defines working class . Steve says the working class . Steve says the working class are just tools for the government to pay for their mistakes whilst they ruin the country. And les says michel, country. And les says michel, there will only ever two classes us and then you tell me and on that network thing, i think thats a really interesting one because ill say this you cannot because ill say this you cannot be what you cannot see. So if you dont know a profession even exists, how can you be that . So i think there is a lot of i do think there is a lot of merit actually in helping young, dare working dare i say, working class kids or whatever broader horizons or whatever in broader horizons to them what is out there. To show them what is out there. Because i believe you can have and do and be anything that you want. But youve got to know that its there in order to aspire to it in the first place, havent you . Final word to you. Gb gb news dot com. Coming gb views gb news dot com. Coming up the break. Sunak up after the break. Rishi sunak is saying that the uk is basically saying that the uk is basically saying that the uk is for the long haul. What is in it for the long haul. What am talking about . A commitment am i talking about . A commitment to do agree with to ukraine. Do you agree with that you tell me radio. Hi there. Michelle dewberry with you till seven. Ben habib alongside me, as is Lisa Mckenzie. Welcome back, everybody. That was everybody. That was a fascinating debate and its really got you talking if you just joined us, you missed a great conversation then about class in this country. What it means, who is in which class and whether or not theres bias against the working class. Keep against the working class. Keep your thoughts coming in on that and ill bring in some more of your feedback before the end of the show. But for now, i do want to move on because, of course, we the big speech yesterday we had the big speech yesterday from other from rishi sunak among other things, things things, one of the things he spoke out about ukraine. Spoke out about was ukraine. Lets have a listen. Im proud to say weve also led providing led the world in providing support to ukraine. We were the first country to send western battle to now more battle tanks to kyiv. Now more than ten others have followed. I than ten others have followed. I say this to our allies as if we give president zelenskyy the tools the ukrainians will finish the job. Now that got a massive round of applause. Im asking you at home, do you back that . Are we in this until the very end . Give me your thoughts. But for now, im joined by cormac smith, who advised ukraines Previous Foreign Affairs minister. Good evening to you. Let me put that question to you. Is rishi sunak right there . Should the uk be in this to the end when it comes to supporting ukraine . Michelle, good evening and thank you very much for having me on. Look, i listened very carefully to the Prime Ministers Conference Speech yesterday and i was absolutely delighted to hear him reiterate britains strong support. Britains strong support. Britain has been possibly ukraines greatest supporter from the very beginning. The from the very beginning. The Prime Minister mentioned being the first to give battle tanks, i mean the first to give long range artillery with the storm shadow earlier on this summer. But we were also the very first before the invasion even happened to and provide significant amounts of lightweight defensive anti armor lightweight defensive anti armor weapons, lightweight defensive anti armor weapons, which were quite possibly responsible for saving kyiv in the early days. I think we im delighted that we are in it to the end. I would like to see the narrative change slightly and i would like to stop talking about for as long as it takes to actually be defining what victory looks like and saying that we are in this to help ukraine win as soon as possible. The Prime Minister did say that he believes if we give the ukrainian ions the weapons they need, they will finish the job. If everybody was as supportive as the United Kingdom has been for the last 20 months, i think this war might already be over. And it might already be overin be over. And it might already be over in ukraines favour. Over in ukraines favour. Where do you think theyre doing enough . Are these doing enough . Are these countries, people like the uk, etcetera to engineer etcetera, to try and engineer peace talks to bring the conflict to an end . Conflict to an end . I personally, nor do any of my ukrainian friends see any point in peace talks. Peace talks are in russias favour at the moment. President zelenskyy the moment. President zelenskyy has set out very, very clear. Has set out very, very clear. Ten, very clear and preconditions for peace talks. And the first one is of those is that russia takes its soldiers off ukrainian soil and back to 1991, borders. We know that 1991, borders. We know that russia is taking a severe beating on the on the battlefield and that peace talks and freezing the conflict where it is, is would be very much in russias favour. Russia would make a any commitment which russia would make. We know we could not trust because they have broken every single commitment they have made in International Agreements relevant to ukraine. And so there is unless russia is willing to stop fighting and withdraw completely , there is withdraw completely, there is there is no point for peace talks at the moment. There is no point for peace talks at the moment. And i think our government realises that there are others who are more on still pushing for peace talks. Still pushing for peace talks. But i think the British Government is very, very clear on that. On that. One of the former president s of the Eu Commission , of the Eu Commission, Jean Claude Juncker, he has been speaking out today saying that he thinks that ukraine is corrupt at all levels. Countries corrupt at all levels. Countries are pouring in billion and billions, hundreds of billions until when you look at all is ukraine corrupt . How do we know that that money is going into the right places . Well, the money certainly that the British Government sends and the money that the American Government sends, and i would presume others, very, would presume others, is very, very carefully audited. So i am confident that we do know that the money and the armaments that we are sending to ukraine is going to the right place. First point, second point, ukraine has a problem with corruption. I a problem with corruption. I know i worked at the heart of the Ukrainian Government for two years and one of the obsessions of the Ukrainian Government was fighting corruption. And i saw fighting corruption. And i saw very, very significant strides fonnard, made in the time that i was there between 2016 and 2018. But i would point out further the second or the third point that i would make, i would point out further every country has corruption in and we need not too be complacent or smug here in the United Kingdom or any other european country or north america. The problem is west america. The problem is west Asian Countries are tending to hold ukraine to a higher standard than they do themselves. And my fine point, michel , is that themselves. And my fine point, michel, is that , you themselves. And my fine point, michel , is that , you know, michel, is that, you know, accession to the eu is not to going happen overnight. It never was. And the ukrainians are very, very clear that they still have work to do. Indeed, they have work to do. Indeed, they continue fighting corruption even in the teeth of a genocidal war being committed against their people. And im just looking at what their Prime Minister , denis shmyhal, said minister, denis shmyhal, said recently. Kyiv wants to put on the table a report that we are ready in two years is not immediately. At the same time , immediately. At the same time, he emphasised the decision on ukraine accession will take time for its approval. All so the for its approval. All so the ukrainians, you know , are very, ukrainians, you know, are very, very realistic about this. So very realistic about this. So i dont i read very, very carefully what the what the Jean Claude Juncker said said, and he did not say that ukraine should never join what he said was ukraine is not ready for accession overnight. I think the accession overnight. I think the point is that ukraine needs us to provide the evidence to the European Union that it is deaung European Union that it is dealing with corruption and it is making progress and that i have understood and seen with my own eyes. And im in contact with ukrainian officials almost on a daily basis is being done, as i said , even in the teeth of as i said, even in the teeth of this genocidal war and the final thing, you know, the current and the current head of the Eu Commission, charles the irishman, sorry, ive forgotten his second name. Thats good of me. But he said today also he mirrored the he mirrored the cormac smith really unfortunate i your audio is starting to break up there, but that was cormac smith. Hes advised the ukraines Previous Foreign Affairs minister. They need a lot more trusting than i am when it comes to that whole corruption conversation. It was corruption conversation. It was a shame that the audio was just crackling a bit at the end. Anyway, on this anyway, where are you on this ukraine situation . Okay, so the chancellor of the said yesterday okay, so the chancellor of the he said yesterday okay, so the chancellor of the he was said yesterday okay, so the chancellor of the he was asked yesterday okay, so the chancellor of the he was asked to sterday okay, so the chancellor of the he was asked to give |y okay, so the chancellor of the he was asked to give an when he was asked to give an order three items, what is order of three items, what is caused, what is the most Significant Impact to the uk economy thats caused this cost of crisis and he went of living crisis and he went straight to ukraine. He said ukraine must be in the top three. So the ukrainian wall apart from the 4 billion that weve already spent on it and the other billion, wish the other 2 billion, they wish to us commit to that wall, to make us commit to that wall, that wall has already cost the british people an enormous amount. If british people an enormous amount. If the chancellor is right that it is in the top 2 or 3 reasons why were having a cost of living crisis, it is caused the british people to suffer. So we need to define suffer. So we need to define very carefully what our geopolitical aims are in ukraine and i would argue that weve achieved our geopolitical aims. They were to protect western europe, to make sure that missiles Russian Missiles didnt end up on the polish border. Weve more than achieved that. The notion that cormac was trying to suggest that the russians are taking a beating in the south east of russia, in the south east of ukraine is wrong because as weve we heard repeatedly about how the spring offensive was going to break through russian lines, it hasnt. Russians there and. The russians are there and this war is going to go on and on and on, and billions are going to be poured into this war in to order win whatever win means against russia. And as those billions are poured in, i refuse to believe that a very significant. Amount of that isnt being pocketed by criminals. Isnt being pocketed by criminals. Us and ukraine isnt being pocketed by criminals. Us and ukraine wasnt criminals. Us and ukraine wasnt just corrupt before the war broke out. It was 20 places below turkey. Its below uganda below turkey. Its below uganda and a whole load of other countries that wouldnt make it to eu membership. I think were getting ukraine very, very wrong at the moment. Yeah, and obviously if any ukrainian representatives were here, there would deny obviously that they are pocketing money. Lisa ive got to say, i do agree with most of what ben said. I mean, finish the job. I mean, what does that even mean . You know, what are we going to do . Are we to going allow every last ukrainian to die before the job is finished . Or are we going to sort of send in british troops before the job is finished . I think this open ended on conditionally supporting , unconditionally supporting, unconditionally paying. I dont think the British Public are actually behind that here. Here , i can tell you theres here, i can tell you theres a really mixed opinions on this one at home. Um, kenneth says, no, not a single penny. More on a needless nato created war. Chris says, of course we should help ukraine to the end. Why on earth is this question even coming up . If ukraine falls, russia will invade another country. That invade another country. That could be us, chris says. Well, where would the uk be now if all the allies stopped supporting us dunng the allies stopped supporting us during the second world war, giving up on ukraine would be dangerous to the security of the world. Evil must never prevail, john should john said. Yes, we should support ukraine, in the form support ukraine, but in the form of not just handing of loans, not just handing over money fist. The uk money hand over fist. The uk only just recently ended up paying only just recently ended up paying off debts for world war two. Will we ever get back from ukraine financially . You know what i can tell you now, opinions really are divided on that. And im fascinated to hear from you. Vaiews gbnews. Com of course, theres been a summit where ukraine was on the menu today, but also another thing on the menu was how the uk can work more closely with europe when it comes to managing the migration crisis. Is that the answer . More crisis. Is that the answer . More european cooperate nation . You tell me theres help for households. Are you over state pension age . If your weekly income is below £201. 05, or £306. 85 if you live with a partner, you could be eligible for pension credit, even if you own your home or have savings. Its worth, on average, £3,500 a year, and you could get help with heating bills and more, plus cost of living payments. Hi there. Im Michelle Dewberry hi there. Im Michelle Dewberry and im with you till 7 00 tonight. Ceo of First Property group, ben habib and the academic and ethnographer Lisa Mckenzie alongside me. Lots of mckenzie alongside me. Lots of really divided opinion on that ukraine situation. And theres a ukraine situation. And theres a school of thought. Yes, michel , school of thought. Yes, michel, whatever it takes. Just keep pumping money and support and all the rest of it into ukraine. If in that side of the if youre in that side of the fence. By the way, id be fascinated know, you think fascinated to know, do you think that should that people, brits should actually the ground in actually be on the ground in ukraine . That be red ukraine . Would that be a red line is there any red line to you . Is there any red line to you . Is there any red line to you . Or do you worry at all about how deep were getting line to you . Or do you worry at all ethist how deep were getting line to you . Or do you worry at all ethis inow deep were getting line to you . Or do you worry at all ethis in termsep were getting line to you . Or do you worry at all ethis in terms ofnere getting into this in terms of retaliations or not . The other side of the fence is people are warmongering. Is as warmongering. This is not as innocent looks. Youre innocent as it all looks. Youre saying corruption is rife saying that corruption is rife and not happy with it at and youre not happy with it at all. One of you even said that you Boris Johnson should you think Boris Johnson should be for war crimes, be done for war crimes, basically for trying to encourage and warmonger. Encourage and warmonger. Goodness gracious me. Strong opinions on both sides. Now, the uk has reportedly struck a deal with the eu to share intelligence. This is all around the migrant crisis and how were going to get on top of that. And it was a summit, of course, that sunak was out today over in spain. Is this the way fonnard . Is this how were going to fix this mass migration . Well, first thing well, the first thing to say is intelligence is an is eu intelligence is an oxymoron. Just get that out there. Be if we do respectful, polite debate on young polite debate on here, young man, if the eu had the man, look, if the eu had the intelligence required in order to shut down the people smugglers , they would have done smugglers, they would have done it ages ago. It ages ago. You know, smuggling people is a visually obvious exercise a very visually obvious exercise. They march in long lines. They corralled by the people smugglers. Theyre shown the routes. They take the same routes. They take the same routes every day. Theyre not being shut down. The eu here is part of the problem. The eu is part of the problem. The eu is part of the problem. The eu is part of the problem because its got this ridiculous schengen zone, which is the doing away of nafion zone, which is the doing away of nation states across europe, which is the ultimate aim. Of course they dont mind migration, they the powers that be in brussels because it dilutes the importance of a nafion dilutes the importance of a nation state promoting their their their political ideologies much easier if people dont have a culture and an historic affinity to the regions they occupy. The eu is part of the problem. The only way , the only problem. The only way, the only way this migration assault on europe and the United Kingdom is going to stop is if we all police our borders and we enforce border control. And the problem starts with meloni in italy. It starts with greece and italy. It starts with greece and the western balkans. They have the western balkans. They have to get their navies trained, coastguard trained to intercept. Meloni is on board with that, though. Shes not. No im afraid shes all rhetoric and no action. I was in rome last weekend debating with what you might regard as far right parties , and regard as far right parties, and they were all talking about the need to go through the eu. They need to go through the eu. They havent recognised that. The havent recognised that. The only mechanism to stop the assault on lampedusa, on italy , assault on lampedusa, on italy, on greece, on the western balkans is unilateral independence , not sovereign independence, not sovereign action in the sea , protecting action in the sea, protecting your borders, getting on these boats with armed personnel if necessary, and requiring these boats to go back to where they came if necessary. Piloting them all the way back. Thats what the australian did in operation sovereign borders and it worked i i i think migration or the movement of people now its it is. It is. Its the Biggest Issue that were going to be deaung issue that were going to be dealing with over the next ten, 20 years. And i think any i think weve got to work together. I think Different Countries have to work together. Its not about one country or another. When people move, they another. When people move, they are moving through Different Countries. So therefore, we have countries. So therefore, we have to work together. I mean , i was to work together. I mean, i was watching a documentary about south american migration and theres 7 Million People walked in through south america walking through Different Countries to try to get to north america. Try to get to north america. This is a global this is a global all happening. So therefore , i think just saying therefore, i think just saying we need to man our borders and i dont think thats going to be enough. Were not manning our borders at all. Theres no theres no theres no even nod. Well, isnt it true that france has put a theyre talking about theyre theyre sort of protecting their border with italy. I thought they were putting them talking about i mean, but france is part of the schengen zone. You know, once youre part of the zone, they are trying. But what im saying is they all be saying this in all might be saying this in rhetoric, but reality and in rhetoric, but in reality and in practise, all starting to practise, they all starting to put well, hope put borders up. Well, lets hope they are. France are taking an awful lot money from the uk and lot of money from the uk and dont that effective dont seem to be that effective in what theyre being paid to do, is supposedly stopping do, which is supposedly stopping those crossings in the first place. The question is, as it all gone too far , do you think all gone too far, do you think you can ever get a hold of this . That was one of rishis five pledges, priorities, wasnt it, in terms of stopping the boat crossings the rest of crossings and all the rest of it . But you know what . Its just it . But you know what . Its just it just seems like its almost become the norm. Im not become the norm. And im not saying right norm, by saying its the right norm, by the but its almost become the way, but its almost become the way, but its almost become the you hotel at the norm now that you hotel at the norm now that you hotel at the top of the street. No, you cant have your wedding. No, you cant have your wedding. No, you cant have your work conference anymore because weve closed the entire we bust the entire thing and we bust the migrants in and you guys at home are to be paying for it to are going to be paying for it to the tune of £8 million a day. And you sit there and then, and then you sit there and then, oh, i even get myself. Oh, i cant even get myself. Well, there is profiteering, youre right. But this profiteering there. Then youve got the and then youve got the audacity a government to tell audacity as a government to tell us that we cant help the people of country are of this country that are actually struggling need actually struggling and need some actually struggling and need sonyou cant have tax cuts. But you cant have tax cuts. But there but there is profit there is but there is Profit Sharing in refugee industry. Billions. There are there are billions. There are billions being made. So, of course, absolutely. Billions being made. So, of couabsolutely. Ely. You billions being made. So, of couabsolutely. Ely. You guys absolutely. What do you guys think john says the think to at home . John says the french have shown us how to cooperate, reality. See, cooperate, i. E. In reality. See, theyre not really wanting to do it, richard says, michel, when you closely with you say a working closely with the basically youre the eu, basically what youre saying that doing what saying is that means doing what the us to do, which is the eu tell us to do, which is the eu tell us to do, which is the reason brexit in the very reason we had brexit in the very reason we had brexit in the place. Bernard says the first place. Bernard says the first place. Bernard says the cant be trusted , doesnt the eu cant be trusted, doesnt think will do what they are think they will do what they are promising to do. That seems to promising to do. That seems to be a sentiment coming through thick and fast that you dont have actually, that if have the trust actually, that if agreements reached agreements were reached that they followed through they would be followed through to spirit of which they to in the spirit of which they were intended. Time flies were intended. Lock time flies doesnt it . Lisa, you very doesnt it . Lisa, thank you very much for your company tonight. Ben habib, thank you for yours as well. And you know the drill , dont you . Very much. You are appreciated. Thank for appreciated. And thank you for watching and for engaging. Have a good night. Dirk go anywhere. Nigel farage up next ill nigel farage up next and ill see you tomorrow. Hello again. Its Aidan Mcgivern here from the met. Office for the gb news forecast. Fine. The met. Office for the gb news forecast. Fine. In the met. Office for the gb news forecast. Fine. In the far south forecast. Fine. In the far south over the next 24 hours, a different story. Elsewhere. There will be cloud. Therell be outbreaks of well. Not outbreaks of rain as well. Not everywhere, but everywhere, all the time, but some significant could some significant rain could build places by the build up in places by the weekend. Low pressure at the moment to the northwest of scotland. A number of trailing scotland. A number of trailing weather fronts bringing lot weather fronts bringing a lot of cloud for the rest of cloud to the uk for the rest of thursday and into friday. Those outbreaks of rain continuing over of wales into the over parts of wales into the midlands, england, midlands, northern england, Northern Ireland, southern scotland. Band of rain scotland. Initial band of rain clearing from far north of clearing from the far north of scotland pushed away by scotland and pushed away by a strong wind. And its going to be warm night everywhere with be a warm night everywhere with that wind the cloud that wind and the cloud temperatures places not temperatures in many places not falling much below 15 degrees. Then we start off friday with those cloudy conditions, the breezy conditions as well. Plenty of brightness actually , plenty of brightness actually, for central and northern scotland and much better day compared with thursday and certainly saturday. But for much of Northern Ireland into southern scotland later, as well as northern england, rain will persist through the day. Its to the south where were to going see the warmth building and increasingly temperatures increasingly high temperatures through weekend are through the weekend are expected. For scotland, expected. But for scotland, certainly its going to be a wet start to the weekend that rain really building up through saturday in the first part of sunday. Western parts of scotland at risk of seeing 150mm of a very different of rainfall. A very different story for the of the uk and story for the rest of the uk and certainly good evening. Rishi sunak is good evening. Rishi sunak is in spain at the European Political Community. Didnt talk about that in manchester, did he . Well find out. Is he wasting his time trying to get a migration deal with other eu leaders . Is the governor of the bank of england says brexit has wait for it helped the city of london. Goodness me, you could knock me down with a feather and at the end of a very, very heavy political week on programs, were going to finish up talking rugby. England doing well in rugby. England are doing well in the world cup finals in the Rugby World Cup finals in france. Our next game is on saturday. Well be joined by former international jeff probyn to ask about the game of rugby and what prospects england have