not necessarily illegal but we have certain norms in this country that this president has consistently broken. and this is, that interview with george stephanopoulos is reason 1080, why we know that his counsel would not allow him to sit down with robert mueller. because he cannot help himself. he's saying listen, if they interfere, i don't see what the problem is. his mobster mentality is such that if he can blur the lines of legality and if he can benefit himself, he doesn't fundamentally understand that that weakens american democracy. and this is what the framers have warned us about. and this is what essentially every president has had the decency, democrat and republican, to make sure that they didn't do in the past. >> let me take it a step further, patrice. wouldn't you, if you had a child that was going before a senate subcommittee. say that they were not seeking information and there are statements by people like michael cohen that the former attorney that has given a different light on that.