Cofounder of the robert h. Jackson center we are thrilled to have this opportunity to commemorate one of Justice Jacksons foremost opinions, if not his number one, West Virginia v. Barnett. We have history with individuals we will be interviewing. To kind of recap back in 2002, i believe, i tracked down marie and Lillian Barnett and had a chance down in the charleston area. I didnt know you knew what was happening but all of a sudden this guy with a camcorder tracked you down, went to a kingdom hall and had a chance to chat. You were gracious enough to put up with me. Some of the interviews you just saw in 2006, we had a chance to bring the barnett sisters here and together with our friends at cspan filmed a presentation with professor barrett that Robert Jackson biographer and bennett bossski, the law clerk for justice stone during the barnett case. That was really cool. And a few years ago i had the privilege, together with phil donahue you saw clips on, to meet judith and to interview lillian and that was a thrill for us at the jackson center. Here we are today with an opportunity to revisit this special historical period of time which resulted in a case which has 75 years from today had tremendous legacy aspects, constitutional Juris Prudence extraordinaire. Let me introduce them while i have the chance and then were going to dive right too an interview. As has been mentioned to my immediate left judith klose, the daughter of lillian, who was the stage manager by the way, when phil and i were down in atlanta doings the interview. Next to her im thrilled to introduce louise blanton, a member of the jehovahs witness who at age 91 if i can be so bold, but you look terrific, im not sure i should have disclosed that, i may be in trouble here, she lived it. S she lived it as a member of the jehovahs witness when the gobitas case came down and having to go to a Kingdom School ending when the barnett case was decided. Immediately to louises left is marie barnett, one of those two barnett sisters part and parcel of the West Virginia versus barnett. Im going to go over to this chair here and well have a chance to chat a little bit and get the story from those who lived it. Theres a reason for this order here. Gobitas to barnett, weve been seeing that on this wonderful presentation that preceded this. From a practical perspective, about jehovahs witness, was that part of your mom and brothers world or was that something that their parents were part of . Originally, my moms side of the family was methodist, my grand mothers side, and my grandfathers side was catholic. This came about from their parents and when they started reading, my grandfather would sneak in the room and look at the literature, guess what i learned today, and he got very intrigued by what he felt was really the truth. It got handed down that way. At what point did your mother ever mention when she got the word as to how they might react to the pledge of allegiance that was prevalent in all Public Schools . Well, she really was mentioning how concerned it was going to be that everything changed, their whole world changed, once the decision came down and when she took her stand she knew everything would change into how she viewed life and how life viewed her. In school at the time, they were expelled. How did her classmates treat her . They he really turned their back on her for the most part. There was a few that were still loyal to her, but for the most part they turned their back and turned against her, threw pebbles at her, mocked her, whatever they could do, and she went from being one of the most popular girls in school to one of the most hated girls in school. How did that affect her sense of humor and probably her faith . It made her faith Even Stronger because she knew she had to rely on jehovah more than anything else. It reminds you what your priority is in life and who youre worshipping and where your strength comes from. It kind of takes away from the circumstances that youre going through and gives you strength. Louise, you were in new jersey and your talk a little bit about your familys life path into the jehovahs witness. My family started studying the bible with jehovahs witnesses in 1938. My father, the son of a methodist minister, objected strenuously to the teachings originally because he thought he knew the bible from end to end. But over a period of just a month or so, he began to see that there was so much in the bible, he didnt understand and that he could learn from the study so the family started studying. From 1938 until 1939, we increased in our knowledge of the bible and of what jehovahs witnesses stand for. When i got baptized in 1939, shortly thereafter, i decided that i was going to make jehovah, the god of the bible, my god, and i was going to live by his standards. I was 13 and i was not the normal 13 because i was the oldest girl in the family of ten. And i had a lot of responsibility. So when my parents saw that i was serious about what i had lernld, they let me get baptized. As a member of the faith and also being of age to be in the Public School system, when did the flag salute become an issue in your life . Shortly after i got baptized and i had begun to reevaluate the things that the bible sets forth as standards for us, my parents were giving us different discussions about bible characters and one of those incidents, we were discussing daniel and his three companions and from that, i drew the conclusion that i had to make a choice too and i chose to no longer salute the fact because to me it was like bowing down to an image or reputatiresentationr than gods government. This is part of exodus, thou shall not worship an image. True, thats a part of it. As you demonstrated that at what point was there a moment when you had that class began every day with the pledge of allegiance, at one point you chose not to salute. Yes. To tell the truth that morning i was a nervous wreck. I didnt know exactly how the class would react because i had always been careful of my conduct, my parents depamanded , but when i did stand that day and not put my hand over my heart, the teacher immediately stopped the program and told me i had not gotten into the right position. So they started over again and i stood there, and then she told me out, out of the class. So my brother and i who were in the same grade, went outside into the hall, where we with waited until the class was finished with the exercise. She came out right after that and took us to the Principals Office and he was not nearly as pleasant as she was. Were you expelled . Yes. That day. He gave us one more opportunity. He said, you go back in the class and salute the flag and this is the end of it, but when i told him i couldnt do that, he said, then you will be expeld. So he gave me a note. My brother and i. Gave us notes to take home. They were demanding that our parents attend a meeting with the school board. So that was i think a week later. We had a meeting with the school board, at which time the assistant to mr. Covington, bill jackson, met with us and helped us in the procedure to explain our position. What was the decision of the school board . That we be expelled immediately. Then what did you do for education . That was a difficult time because i think i mentioned before how much i loved school, school was a break for me, and because i was interested in learning new things, i felt crushed that i could no longer go to school. But when our society, the society learned of our situation, they sent legal help and they told us every day, go to school because the school board had said if we were not going to school, the parents would be punished and we would be put in Reform Schools. That really frightened us. What time period was this, louise . This was 1940, and it was probably close to the end of the school term. So at that point, 1940, towards the end of the school there had been a decision decided by the Supreme Court relating to lillians mother and uncle, were you aware of that decision . Very much. Our whole family was following the case, and like the gobitas es, we were shocked. It caused jehovahs witnesses across the country to be amazed that such a thing would happen, but our choice had been made. We continued to be loyal to our faith and our desire to please our creator an we were willing to accept the consequences. The consequences were the creation of kick dkingdom schoo . Eventually. Until that time we had to go to school every morning and be expelled every day from the classroom. Gosh. In order that we would not be accused of being truant. So that was not very pleasant because we took the school bus to school and on the school bus they would start hitting us on the back of the head and calling us nam every description and immediately after we got off the school bus, on the School Grounds before we could get to the class they would gang up on hit with sticks and stones and sometimes rocks. This is the gobitas has been decided, youve been expelled from school, you have to go in every day, expelled, so that your parents arent arrested for being having truants. In West Virginia, marie, what was going on in your world if maybe i should back up to say, was your family raised as part of jehovahs witness . What was the entry point into the faith . My parents started studying when i was a baby, and they my dad, his family, came in to the truth at the same time 1833, 1834. You grew up in that environment . Yes. And what was going on in because you went to a Public School. Slip hill grade school, as i recall. Yes. So when you walked if to schools at that time, was there a mandatory flag salute in West Virginia . West virginia, that really didnt become a problem until after the war started in 41, and after that, then they began to require that there be a flag salute in the schools. When we went to school, it was in the spring because probably february, march, and when they were doing the flag salute and my sister and i stood up, but we didnt do the flag salute, and i noticed the teacher leaving the room and went and got the principal and he asked us to come out of the room and we had to explain to him why we didnt. He wasnt very pleesd with us. He was kind of upset. He finally said, well if youre not going to salute the flag you will have to go home. You cant attend school. Like louise, we went to school every morning and was when the flag salute after the flag salute was program was over, we had to go home. That went on for several weeks. Talk about the administration of the West Virginia school board. Obviously the there was a legal aspect to all of this and did you see your parents engaged with lawyers or were lawyers provided to them . Yes. There was a local lawyer who was he was not a witness, but he was favorable to our beliefs and he took his name was mr. Mellow, an he took over the case, and after the lawyers got into it and im sure that they confered with covington, they told us that dont go back to school. You dont have to go every morning. After that then they did send a truant officer to our home, wanted to know why we werent in school and my mother said you wont let her go to school and my dad had to appear in a court and put up bond to keep from going to jail because they did take him to court for it. So what was the decision of the it went to the Federal District court at that time and kind of the winds of change, waev learned about that today, where all of a sudden that which occurred in gobitas led to persecutions which louise and your mother lillian felt and then kind of works its way to 1942 where you are expelled and truant officers examine knocking on your door and your dad has to post bail, but how were you treated . In the area we lived in, it was kind of a rural area, the children werent cruel to us. They were curious and they asked questions. We explained to them our stand. But they werent cruel to us. I had some cousins who lived in different areas who were beaten up and really cruel to them, but we were fortunate in that fact that children were not cruel to the point that they wanted to be mean to us or anything. Just curious. Were you aware of the gobitas case . I do not remember. Did your dad talk about it . I dont remember it. I probably did because they were very aware of everything that was going on, but in my memory i dont remember them talking about it. Evidently they had. They taught us what we should do because when the time came we knew what we were supposed to do. We were taught what our stand was and what we were supposed to say. It worked its way up to a decision by the board of education which said youre expeld and then worked its way into the Federal District court system and you actually won. Yes. In the courts in West Virginia, we did win. They said it was okay. We could go to school. In fact, we did start back to school the next fall. The teachers werent real pleased with us, but they couldnt do anything about it because the court said you can go to school and we did. The school board of education had an opinion which is contrary to what the Federal District court said and the board of education kept moving itself up thinking probably with some reason there was a precedent, gobitas, that they probably would win the day. Do you recall the circumstances under which you learned of the Supreme Court decision . Not really. I just know that i can remember them talking about it, that we had won in the courts, an from now on there would be no question we could go to school. I dont remember there being a big production about it at that time except they were pleased of course that the court was in our favor. When you went back to school with the Supreme Court order, did the students treat you any differently . Did you sense any of that . No. The school we went to, it was very calm. I dont remember any of them really even talking to us about the point that we didnt salute the flag. At that time, evidently, by being in West Virginia the courts had settled in our favor the schools had been informed of that and we werent treated badly, no. So your mother, we talked about that time period, 1940, when the decision, the gobitas decision, until 1943, what was her sense of that . Did she have some optimism about what might occur . Do you recall her talking about that . It was more that she was on a daytoday basis doing what they had to do to keep the Kingdom School going and keep out of Reform School which is one of those great fears they had and to keep things in alliance with what was going on and doing their part to keep the education going. At one point in that barnett decision finds its way into the Knowledge Base of your mother and uncle, what was their reaction . Do you remember . They were happy to hear that. They were to old to go back to school at that point but other kids were encourage go back. Some were accepted, some still werent. It wasnt completely in the hearts of the school to welcome them with open arms just yet, but some of them were allowed to come back. Louise, in your world you spent two and a half years in liquid, new jersey, as i recall at a Kingdom School, while all of this was percolating through the court system. What was life like in the Kingdom School . Well, it was sort of like paradise compared to what we had been through, but it was challenging in the sense that we had to be away from home. It was a boarding school. The society had purchased or leased a hotel for the purpose of housing the students and most of us lived some distance away. We were about 90 miles away. So my father would take us to school either sunday night or early monday morning, and we would stay until the weekend. During the course of the week, the curriculum was like most schools, with the exception, of course, that we didnt have the flag salute in the morning. We did have a reading of a bibl. We did have reading of the bible text and discussion of a particular verse of the bible. Also during the morning we talked about different bible texts that we were to memorize. It helped us to focus on the reason we were there and to build on our knowledge of our creator. Then at some point in 1943 june 14, 1943, the barnett decision is decided. How do you learn about that . In school we let out a whoop that could have been heard across the county. We were so delighted. At the same time shortly thereafter it turn into groaning because a teacher told us this would be the last time we would be together in this school. Because now youre free to go back to Public School where you can exemplify the life of christian before your fellow students. So you do go back to school, Public School. This would be in the fall of 1943. I personally didnt go back. I was 16. My parents allowed me to enter the full time service that i had already been participating in and to take courses outside of the School System and finally pass the ged test in order to get a diploma. We saw in the play earlier today about some of the persecutions that jehovahs witnesses occurred because they were also registered as contiontious objectors during the time of the war. How did that impact your family . Pretty much i had an older brother who was draft age and who had to serve time in prison for his consciousness objection. The other next to him never had to go to prison, but he was brought before the court in order to state his objection, he got a 4f classification because of his health. But my older brother did have to go. Let me ask a question. But billy, was he subjected to whatd he do . Im not aware of what he did during that time. That has never come up. Yeah. Just curious. We are here commemorating the 75th anniversary of the barnett case, and there wouldnt have been a barnett case if there hadnt been a case. As you sat here and listen to those presentations that occurred, whats your sense of this, judith . I love the fact i just learned this weekend that my mom and maria got to meet each other as children, an