Transcripts For CSPAN3 Treasury Secretary Mnuchin Small Business Administator Testify On Small... 20240712

The Coronavirus Relief packages passed by congress. Good morning. I call this hearing to order. Without objection the chair is authorized to declare a recess at any time. I want to thank everyone especially our witnesses for joining us today for our committees hybrid hearing. I want to make sure to note some important requirements. Let me begin by saying that standing house and Committee Rules and practice will continue to apply during hybrid proceedings. House regulations require members to be visible through a video connection throughout the proceeding. So, please, keep your cameras on. And remember to remain muted until you are recognized to minimize background noise. In accordance with the rules established under hr965, staff have been advised to mute participants only in the event there is inadvertent background noise. For those members here in the room, i urge members and staff to wear masks while in the hearing room and i thank you in advance for your commitment to a safe environment for all here today. Secretary mnuchin, administrator, welcome to the Small Business committee and thank you for being here today. Let me start by saying i want to give a sincere thank you to all the staff of both your agencies who worked tirelessly over the last few months responding to this crisis. I am deeply appreciative of all the work that helps support millions of american jobs in a moment of unprecedented uncertainty. These are extraordinary circumstances and i would like to paint a picture for you of the magnitude of the devastation that Small Businesses are going through right now. Back in march it became clear that covid 19 will tear through our communities leaving almost no sector of our economy unscathed. And the heat on Small Businesses was in many cases deeper and grimmer than their larger counterparts. I have been on phone calls with Small Business owners in my district. Who have main stays in the community for decades who lived through 9 11 and the Great Recession and are now Holding Back Tears telling me if we do not do more to fix ppp and find longterm solutions that they cannot imagine their business. The source of income for themselves and their employees to survive the covid19 pandemic. In fact about 110,000 Small Businesses have already closed their doors permanently and an estimated 7. 5 million additional firms are at risk for the same fate. On top of all that they turn on the news and see headlines like trump Friends Family cleared for millions in Small Business bill out, sba exempted lawmakers, federal officials from ethics rules, and 660 billion loan program. Let me tell you, that is a gut punch to the Small Businesses that this program was intended to serve. The ones that didnt have the top notch Financial Connections to quickly get a ppp loan. While we are grateful to sba for providing data that i have been calling for since the start of ppp it is not secret that there have been errors that are cause for concern. I am troubled by the Bloomberg News report that at least 226,000 loans were likely misreported by congressional districts making it even harder for us to understand how businesses in our district fared in the program. Meanwhile a report from the new york city controller suggests that ppp loans were made in greater frequency in states less hit by covid19 than in epicenters like new york city. As we all know the epidemic has been especially unforgiving for communities of color. Minorities have borne the brunt of the Health Consequences of this terrible virus. We cannot let their businesses also disproportionately bear the economic consequences. According to a survey a mere 12 of black and latino Business Owners who apply for ppp loans reported receiving what they asked for and have anticipated having to close in the near future permanently. We dont even know how asian and native american Business Owners fared because Demographic Data wasnt asked to be voluntarily provided. That is why collecting Demographic Data on these loans was imperative. I will continue to press to set aside more resources for minority and women owned businesses and i hope that we will commit to do more for these businesses in what we are sure to be tough months ahead. I am sure you both can understand many in our country are frightened. They are angry. They are hurting. We are here today to bring transparency and accountability to ensure that america knows they have a government that works as well for them as it does for the well connected corporations and friends of this administration. As lockdown orders started in march, store fronts were shuttered and waves of layoffs were taking place. In response, congress provided relief to reeling Business Owners and their employees. First congress established the Paycheck Protection Program or ppp to provide forgivable loans to businesses and nonprofits for mainly covering payroll. Second to help Small Businesses that needed financing beyond ppp, Congress Gave more Flexible Working capital to more business faster. Knowing that Small Businesses bs operate on razor thin margins, congress created the program to get cash into the hands of Small Businesses quickly, to bridge the gap until their loans are dispersed. Despite the flaws in their implementation, this program has been a lifeline for millions of entrepreneurs and job creators, injecting over 670 billion dollars into the economy. To address concerns and make the program work better, our Committee Held numerous hearings and forums with Small Businesses, lenders and leading policy experts over the past few months. One of the top issues we heard from ppp stakeholders, is the incomplete and everchanging guidance. Borrowers testified that they had very little guidance regarding how to spend their loans so they could qualify for forgiveness. Lenders are still reporting the process for seeking forgiveness is not clear and an workable. If forgiveness is the centerpiece of the program, a streamlined, efficient process for getting those loans forgiven should be a priority. Turning briefly to idle, the lack of Clear Communication has been an ongoing issue. Given the urgency of this pandemic and the uncertainty for so many Small Businesses, sba must do a better job of communicating. At the spread of covid19 has accelerated in recent weeks, and lockdown orders return, it will be extremely important that we take Lessons Learned since march to stop unnecessary bankruptcies and make sure that these programs are working for americas small firms. We also need to explore other ways sba can support our Small Business sector, like turning to try and true Program Enhancements that work after the Great Recession. Once again, thank you for being here today. I now yield to the Ranking Member for his Opening Statement. Thank you, madam chair. I want to thank administrator carranza and secretary could mnuchin for being with us today and taking time out of your very busy schedules. Thank you so much for being here, both of you. What we agree we must be forward looking as we continue to respond to the covid19 pandemic, the topic of todays discussion is equally important. We must continue to Work Together to ensure the federal governments relief efforts face sound and prudent oversight. These programs were developed to assist the nations smallest firms. Instances where ineligible businesses and entities, including political organizations who benefited from the programs, must be examined closely. Take, for example, the over 300,000 dollars taxpayer backed loans that were received by the Ohio Democratic party in may. And madam chair, for the record, i would oppose such a bailout for the Republican Party as well, but it happened to be the Democratic Party in ohio that took advantage of this. I dont think it was ever intended for that type of thing to happen. Additionally, oversight of how well the billions of dollars allocated to assist Small Businesses was utilized hasnt heard of. That will help us formulate a future strategy and make well informed decisions that benefit the greatest number of americans. I happen to represent most of the city of cincinnati. For the past few months, i visited countless Small Businesses and obviously many of their employees as well. And i and my staff have spoken with representatives from the Cincinnati African American Chamber of commerce and the urban leak. Some of our smallest businesses, particularly those in minority and economically disadvantaged communities, oftentimes the smallest businesses and typically under ten employees, when this started and many of them still dont, they didnt have the strongest relationship with banks or Credit Unions when they were seeking these loans. Can i know that this has evolved and the chair has been instrumental in that effort as well, and we have worked with her and her staff on that, but we have to make sure that those folks in these economically disadvantaged areas have access to this. As i say, oftentimes, the relationship they have had with the Banking Institutions, Financial Institutions just isnt there. That makes it even tougher for them. It is impossible to legislate from washington for every single situation across the country. Likewise, it is impossible to regulate from washington for every scenario that may come up. All the folks in this room recognize this and have been reminded since march of that structural impossibility. Congress acted quickly earlier this spring. Speed was paramount in getting funds into the hands of Small Business owners to keep them afloat, when they were forced to shut down through no fault of their own. Consolidating six months of legislative work in a little more than six days, the coronavirus aid relief and Economic Security or cares act was passed with overwhelming, bipartisan support, republicans and democrats working together. And it was signed into law by President Trump on march 27th. This more than two trillion dollars Economic Relief package, delivered on our commitment to do Everything Possible to protect the American People from the Public Health and Economic Impacts of covid19. The cares act created the Paycheck Protection Program, or ppp, following passage of this land mark legislation, the sba at the department of the treasury worked tirelessly to execute the law and issue regulations to inform borrowers and lenders alike how the program would be administered. To the credit of everyone involved, the first loans flowed from private lenders seven days, just one week later on april 3rd. Since that date, the ppp program has distributed nearly 5 million loans to small firms in the amount of over half a trillion dollars. In my district and the surrounding area alone, Small Businesses utilize to preserve nearly half 1 million jobs. These successes cannot be ignored. Why is not alone. This program invited Small Businesses and workers a lifeline across the entire nation. Where there bumps in the road . Of course. As i stated earlier, its difficult to get a program this size up and running in a week. If there had been communication issues between the federal government in the lenders in the borrowers, undoubtedly, but that is the one of the reasons why we are here today, we must prepare and examine we must examine the pass to prepare for the future. Unfortunately, there are still challenges that are presenting obstacles for the nations smallest firms. Because we continue to face this threats, we must be forward thinking. More needs to be done and we have proven that when we Work Together, across the aisle, across the capital and across the different ends of pennsylvania avenue, we can move mountains. We arent done yet. I look forward to engaging with you madam administrator and you mister secretary as you as well as you madam chair as we continue to work for american Small Businesses, i want to thank you both for being here and thank the chair for holding this hearing today, and i yield back. Thank you mister chabot. I would like to explain how this hearing will proceed. Witnesses will have five minutes to provide a statement and each member will have five minutes for questions. Please ensure your microphone is on when you begin speaking and that you return to mute when finished. I would like to introduce our witnesses. Our first is the honourable carranza administrator of sba. Administrator carranza has an inspiring background. Born in illinois to an immigrant family from mexico, she began her career at ups as a parttime employee, ultimately climbing the ranks to become president of latin america and caribbean operations. In 2006, president bush named her deputy administrator for the Small Business administration. Most recently was the treasurer of the United States. Welcome back to our committee, administrator carranza. Witness is the honorable steve mnuchin. The secretary of the u. S. Department of the treasury. Mr. Mnuchin has a successful career as a banker at Goldman Sachs for multiple decades before leaving to join other hedge funds throughout the 2000. He was appointed treasury secretary by President Trump where he has served for the last three years. Welcome to the house Small Business committee and thank you for joining us today, mr. Mnuchin. Administrator carranza, you are recognized for five minutes. ,. . Thank, you chairwoman. Thank you. The mic is not. On maybe bring it closer to. You can you hear . Me yes. Thank you for the invitation to testify this morning. Im eager to update you on the progress made by the agency in helping Small Business whether the pandemic. Since march, the sba process more loan volume than it has in the entire history of the agency. As of this morning, the ppp has approved nearly 5 million loans and over 518 billion dollars in muchneeded Fiscal Relief to americas Small Businesses. We had minister to this first of its kind program with an eye toward equity, recognizing the pandemic has been particularly harmful to socially and economically disadvantaged businesses. We mobilized thousands of new lenders, including Community Banks, Credit Unions, companies, form credit lenders and hundreds of empty ice that specialized in providing the quantity to underrepresented communities through economic and disaster loans and idle advances the agency has reached over 8 million Small Businesses, dispersing nearly 170 dot 170 billion dollars in assistance. That is more than all other disasters combined in the agency. Idle loans are currently being processed in just five days, with disbursements occurring in just two days. These programs helped the Small Business sector survive once in a lifetime disruptions. Since early june, i have made a concerted effort to personally speak to businesses left reeling by this pandemic, and to Financial Institutions, so that i can see for myself what is working and where improvements need to be made. One of the scores of businesses i visited with an African American Logistics Management form and dallas. Sba loans provided him with a bridge, a financial bridge over the most mulches waters he has ever experienced. It helped him not only keep his employments on the payroll, but also hire new workers who receive comprehensive skills training and professional certifications. Many Small Businesses owners use that term, bridge, to describe how sba loans provided them with time and space needed to rethink, innovate, and to adapt their Business Models for success in this new environment. One African American manufacture in greensboro, north carolina, told me that an sba loan helped her develop brandnew lines of revenue online. Sba loans helped a whiskey discolored distiller in traverse city, michigan, transition his operation to hand sanitizer, to meet both a social need and financial gap. This pandemic has been an impetus for innovation in the Small Business sector. But chairwoman, it also has accelerated modernization at the sba. For example, we have created an internal oversight plan for each cares act program. We have looked long term at our management responsibilities for millions of businesses and disaster loans. The agency has brought on thousands of staff to support our covid disaster operations will simultaneously servicing 175 Natural Disaster declarations. We have significantly corrected the Customer Service experience for otto applicants, but accelerating the processing of our loan q, helping them to better plan. Our dedicated as be a professionals have been working hard to achieve this largely until the work status and as a result, we are more nimble, more responsive and better prepared for tomorrow. Before i conclude, i want to say a few words about the ppp data disclosure made earlier this month. The data reflects information about loans approved by lenders and entered into the sba loan system by those lenders. It does not mean that sba has determined that a borrower has complied with Program Rules or is eligible to receive a loan and forgiveness. We are reviewing all loans. Moreover, we provided the opportunity for businesses or lenders who believe their reported information is inaccurate to contact us. We work with them to fix it at the same time we should not lose sight of the fact that this Unprecedented Program has emerged as one of the most successful and consequential federal economic response efforts in history. That success is the result of a collaborative effort that includes the white house, treasury, sba the lending community, chambers of commerce, and importantly, each and every one of you. I know that there is more work to be done, and we all share the same goals of helping Small Businesses across the country. I look forward to working with this committee and other members of congress. Thank you. Thank you, administrator carranza. Secretary mnuchin, you are now recognized for five. Minutes thank you, members of the committee, i am pleased to join today to discuss how the department of treasury and the sba are working together to provide relief to business and their workers through the ppp. We remain committed to working together until every american gets back to work as quickly as possible. Americas economy continues to recover from the challenges posed by covid19. For the second month in a row, the jobs report vastly exceeded forecasts with a record of nearly 5 million jobs. This brings the two month game to approximately 8 million jobs. Well Unemployment Rate is still historically high, we are seeing additional signs and conditions of improvement. The blue chip report is forecasting that our gdp will grow by 18 in the third quarter. The u. S. Chamber of commerce reports that 79 of Small Businesses are at least partially open, and half the remaining businesses will open soon. Retail sales rose by 18 in may. And by seven and a half percent in june. But let me point out, june was actually 1. 1 higher than the same june 2019. This is a result of all of our programs working with congress. Investors and businesses have historically high caste positions and are beginning to put them back to work. We are in a strong position to recover, because the Trump Administration worked with congress to pass legislation and overwhelmingly bipartisan basis and provide liquidity to workers and markets in the record time. In particular, the ppp is keeping tens of millions of employees and their jobs. Economic impact payments are helping millions of families. We are monitoring Economic Conditions closely. Certain industries such as construction are recovering quickly, well retail and travel are facing longer term prospects. We are sensitive to the fact that certain areas of the country are experiencing increased number of cases the Task Force Working with state and local officials is helping to ensure people can work safely in this environment. We look forward to continued conversations with this committee and other members of congress to address these critical issues. Turning to the ppp, the sba and treasury Work Together to launch this in unprecedented time. We approved over 500 million loans for 500 billion to support over 50 million drops. This is truly an extraordinary achievement and we are pleased that the loans were broadly distributed inmate across diverse areas of the economy. With 20 of the funds going to low and moderate income communities, which is consistent with the proportion of the percentage of the population. As you might expect with a program of this magnitude executed on a National Scale rapidly, we know should be experienced complications. We resolved them quickly. To implement the program, our teams worked with members of congress on a bipartisan basis to issue rules and guidance to provide clarity. By standing up the program quickly, we were able to support tens of millions of jobs. We have worked closely with members of congress and both parties to pass three subsequent pieces of critical legislation. We also reached a second round of funding for over 300 billion dollars. I look forward to these continued bipartisan efforts. In next phase release should extend the ppp, but on a more targeted basis for Smaller Companies and those that are especially hard hit such as restaurants, hotels, and other travel and hospitality businesses. The Treasury Department is implementing the cares act with transparency and accountability. We have released a significant amount of information on our website reporting on the usa spending. Gov, and updates to congress. We are cooperating with various oversight bodies. Regarding the ppp, treasury and sba regularly release data, on programs the treasury have made Data Information regarding millions of Economic Impact payments available on their website and into the gao, we are pleased that the treasury working with the Federal Reserve has announced it will that existing closure is posting Additional Information on the website. Weve had productive discussions with the congressional oversight commission. In addition to the ppp, we had 160 million payments for the Economic Impact payments. We have made massive amounts to support air carriers weve had 150 billion to the Coronavirus Relief fund. The Federal Reserve facility is up and running, i am pleased to announce that main street made its first loan for 12 point 3,000,002 doctors offices consisting of 15 practices in wisconsin would lender with stereo bank of family on 1. 2 billion Dollar Community bank there is a 50 Million Dollar construction loan which will save over 3000 jobs in the working i look forward to working with Congress Next week on a bipartisan basis to pass additional legislation. I would like to thank the members of this committee for working with us to help the American People. I look forward to answering your questions. Thank you, mister secretary. We will begin by recognizing myself for five minutes. Secretary secretary mnuchin, ethics rules were waved administratively in the ppp, allowing friends of the Trump Administration to get access without further review. Meanwhile, there are thousands of Small Businesses, many owned by women and minorities and located in rural areas that were desperately seeking assistance. Rick are you concerned about those optics . Let me just say as it relates to certain roles but the administrator said, there will clearly belongs that are reviewed for appropriateness. But let me just comment on the conflict of interest rules, i had very specific discussions with senator schumer and mcconnell on the conflict rules, and it relates to direct loans from treasury and the loans from the Federal Reserve, they were very specific requirements and certifications that were required from members of congress and the administration. As it relates to the sba program, congress could have included the same requirements but decided not to do so. Indeed, the sba followed their standard provisions for the sba. The sba standards conduct commission determined that the ppp loans should be governed by similar disaster programs an excuse and explicitly, and again, this is a committee that did not consist of political people, explicitly decided to provide the same waivers that they have done for other programs. Again, we look forward to working with oversight committees to make sure proper rules and regulations are followed. I welcome that. And we intend to exert our responsibility and our constitutional duty to be at the table. I am the first minority female chairing a committee. When we are discussing lending programs that are within the jurisdiction of this committee, i will demand for the Ranking Member and myself to be at the table. I insisted that ethics rules should not be waived. These are lending programs. If it is good for the seven a, and 5 04, and fdic, it should be good for this type of lending, and i will insist on that when we sit down to discuss Going Forward. Understand idols were kept at 150,000 in an effort not full to stress the funding. However, i ask you, administrator, the appropriators ask you, and the senate asked you, on numerous occasions if you needed additional funding. And the answer was not. Yet here we are. And it is our Small Businesses that are suffering. Moving forward, you must to work with us and i ask that you remove the cap for a new item loans immediately, and allow those with existing loans to obtain the capital they deserve. You still have 200 billion dollars of loan making Authority Left in the eidl program while Small Businesses are hurting. Your so help us help you, because members of this arent committee and businesses looking to testify before this committee, they said that they might remain open, but would not be able to keep those businesses open because when they were thinking they were applying for the maximum allowable loans, then you reduced to 150,000. We need to do better than that. This is not going away, and too many businesses are suffering. Mr. Mnuchin, the pandemic has caused the rate of black on businesses to drop by an astonishing 41 , and the rate for latinoowned businesses by 32 . These numbers are only going to get worse unless we act now. Amid reports, shouldnt we set aside a percentage of the remaining funds for Small Businesses that needed the most . I just heard you saying that you are going to ask for hotel, restaurants and the traveling industry. What about minority businesses . I agree with you, there should be a set aside for small minority businesses. Thank you. So i can count on your support that we can set aside funding for Mission Based lenders because we are discussing here small the smaller of the Small Businesses who have no connection, who has not preexisting banking relationships with those Financial Institutions, those who have relationships our Mission Based, like siti fci, like nda, like micro lenders and i hope that we can Going Forward, work with you on that issue. My time has expired, i recognize the Ranking Member. Thank you madam chair. Administrator carranza, ill go to you first. Given the overwhelming response to this emergency, is the sba repairs to response to other disasters such as floods, hurricanes and fires . We know they are coming at some point. Are you are prepared for that . Yes. At this point we have about three types of disaster declarations that are submitted by the governors. Yeah its either economic disruption based on civil unrest, or its natural Natural Disaster, and then of course the march declaration of economic disaster. So we are processing all three as we speak. Very good, thank. You secretary mnuchin, i will move to next, does the loan forgiveness process need to be simplified anymore . For example, there are some members of congress who have suggested perhaps even forgiving all the loans under 150,000 dollars, for example. Im not saying we should or shouldnt do that, but i would love to hear your thoughts about it. Ive heard a lot of concerns about how complicated the forgiveness process can be, if you can talk a little bit about that. We look forward to working with this committee and the senate Small Business committee to simplify the process. There were provisions in the existing at that made it complicated. We tried to issue as much guidance as we could. I know one of the things we will talk about is should we just have forgiveness for all the small loans . I think that is something that we should consider, we should obviously make sure there is some fraud protection, but we look forward to working with this committee and others. Thank. You as you know, at this point, there is approximately 130 billion dollars still in the ppp program, everyone is talking about. What do we do with that . Do we reduce the number of employees eligible from say 500 down to 100, do we stick with what we have, do we do a second ppp . I know these are negotiations that everyone is having now, including the administration, the house, the senate, this committee and others. What are your current thoughts about . The the administration supports using the existing money and topping it off with some additional money. That will be discussed. In allowing for a second payment to businesses that are especially hard hits. And chairwoman, let me just say, i was only giving examples of businesses. I did not mean to in any way imply that those are the only businesses that are hard hit. I think this time we need to have a revenue test and make sure that money is going to businesses that have significant revenue declines, that is something that congress did not have in the first provision. So lets make sure that the businesses that are especially hard hit, particularly Small Businesses, and put in certain safeguards so that some of the types of people we saw that took out loans, and i look forward to working with congress, if Congress Wants to put back in the conflict rules, we are more than happy to work with congress. The administration supports, we will participate on the same basis of the house in the senate. Secretary mnuchin, one of the things that you all were operating under impossible time constraints. We passed this, i was at the signing ceremony on friday, the next week the loans were literally going out the door, although not that many. And it wasnt a glitch free, we all know that. But you all got your act together pretty quickly and saved a whole lot of businesses all across the country. God bless you all for doing that, and this committee was involved in many others as well. One of the things that was frustrating, and i heard this i dont to be critical here but i it was frustrating, i heard this from lenders and Small Business folks and from our staff, was the time it took to get the guidance out so people knew what the rules were. What we were all operating under . Do you have any thoughts for the future as to what we might be able to do and one of the more ridiculous statements ive ever made i committee we get the program up in two weeks. And working with the sva staff, we were able to do that. Obviously, in doing that, it ran into a lot of issues, but we made the judgment. It was more important to get it up and running quickly. That sending money to people for months later was not going to help Small Businesses. Now that we have it up and running, especially to the extent there are minor changes to the ppp, and eidl programs, working with the s. B. A. , we can get guidance out quickly. We will not have the Technology Problems we had last time. I encourage this committee to work in the context of these programs and put more restraints. The other thing you should consider on the eidl, now that we have made street open for loans above 250, 000, that we really do focus eidl on loans that are 2 50 and below thank you. Thank you we recognize the gentlelady from iowa. Miss think infinkenauer. Finkenauer thank you, madam chair. You understand, the district i represent is northeast iowa. It has three bigger city centers. Our district has been hit very hard on a number of levels, whether it has been the attacks on the Agricultural Community the last few years, or now this pandemic and how it has affected not just the cities but our rural areas as well. One of the things i want to touch on, secretary mnuchin, i really want to dive into the Economic Impact payments, the direct assistance payments of are important for individuals who are worried about how they will pay their mortgage, their rent, put food on the table but also local businesses who have been able to stay open, to have some sort of economic stimulus here during the pandemic. One of the things i was really concerned about is, when these went out to folks, obviously, if they had a direct deposit set up, those went into their accounts. Most of them, however we heard from 700 people within my district about these payments, who did not receive them or they received them but they were in the debit card and did not realize that they were Economic Impact payments. Why was this set up the way that it was . Why was there no real communication out to these districts, out to folks who needed it, to understand how these were coming out . And also, we wrote you a letter, secretary mnuchin, about about the fees and reassuring these cars, because so many folks were throwing them away. Im glad you listened and decided to waive the charge for replacing, but why does it cost 17 dollars to priority ship these cards to folks . Why do taxpayers who need their money now have to wait longer and it costs them more . This is just something again that needs to be dealt with. Im glad you fixed a piece of it. What are we going to do down the road . When we issue hopefully more support to folks and actually have that education and why was this in the first . Please thank you for your comments. Let me just say, the fact that there were 700 of those in your community is inexcusable. If you have specific issues, we are happy to follow up. I would say the irs and Postal Services did an extraordinary job in sending out over 150 million, again, in a record pete of time. The debit cards you did point out something, we didnt realize that the debit cards were sent in unmarked envelope s. We will correct that Going Forward. I do think the debit cards was an interesting addition for two reasons. One, it allowed us to get payments out quicker since we could only create so many checks, and to, Going Forward. Im sorry secretary mnuchin how long did we have to wait to put those out because the president to hide it to have his name on those checks on the paperwork that went out with . Those i can assure you there was zero delayed associated with either those issues, it had no impact on the timing. We were limited in the number of checks we could print per week but that had no impact on it. And i think the fees were waved. I amif the fees werent way than you have constituents they still have issues again im happy to follow up on. The the fee of 7 50 to replace them and then there is a 17 dollars that affect costs costs are the priority. Shipping you let me know and we will follow up with that shipping wave as well. Thank you. And then i also have a question about the ppp program, obviously this is been incredibly important all over the country. And in districts like mine, i have to be honest, i was really disappointed at the beginning when this rolled out we allocate these dollars and then they go to these agencies they go to treasury to set out how these are rolled out, and communities like mine quite frankly were left behind because we had the highest concentration of Community Based Financial Institutions in the entire country within my district. And so the first fact essentially went to big banks and people who were connected with their banks, and left out communities like mine. So did either of you think about how this would impact folks who lend with Community Based Financial Institutions . Why was this done the way that it was at the very beginning . How can we ensure, i know we have that set aside now for those dollars, but how can we ensure that as we continue to look at this, that we are doing what we should hear with these agencies to make sure we dont forget about rural areas . On the sba, i understand that we lost the head of rural affairs, she got moved. I know that we are short on staffing to do with this, but it is not the time to move somebody that represents time has expired. If you wish to answer the question, sir . I can assure you we are focused to make sure Community Banks have equal access. You are correct, unfortunately there were issues in the beginning, but we corrected a very quickly. Thank. You gentleman from ohio is recognized for five minutes. Thank, you madam chair. Thank you both for being here today. My first question is for the administrator. Thank you again for being here today. I greatly appreciate your leadership to this pandemic. I would also like to convey to you that your local office in my district columbus ohio, has been a phenomenal partner and resource for me. We have been doing it back to business tour for the last three weeks. Someone from your office has been with me along the way and his team, and we are very grateful to see the Business Owners that encounter the sba, what were there and to put a face to the name is very pleasing for them as well. Thank you. An issue that i have heard more and more about from my constituents is the lack of clarity on tpp forgiveness. Specifically i hear this often from Business Owners looking to have their businesses but. Out this could be because of the pandemic or a planned sale prior to covid19 that has been placed on hold because of the virus. In the situation, the Business Owner took ppp in order to support their employees, and now they cannot southern business with this forgivable loan on the books. Why is this . Thank you. This is a situation that i have to speak with you personally or address the particular case, because this is news to me about them taking ppp and then wanting to so. It is not a new incident for Small Businesses that are ready to sell because they dont care to go through another pandemic or another crisis, they are in a position and interested in selling their company, but the ppp or the eidl lone issue was not raised when we had those discussions. But i have experience similar to you, that there are businesses that are ready to sell, but i will have to look into how to manage the situation, and concur with the treasury. In forgiveness, we have not address that at this point, an entity wanting to sell their firm. And they have alone. , we will work with you on that, and in the business one for example, that i have been in communication, with they were doing an exchange in january before the. Pandemic hit admin. Carranza look forward to it. Rep. Balderson mr. Mnuchin, i introduced legislation with my colleagues from across the aisle, congresswoman lawrence, that would provide a tax credit for Small Businesses to purchase and install ppe and related safety equipment. This legislation would help Small Businesses suffering under the weight of mandatory closures , be able to afford the equipment required to reopen their doors. Are you open to working with myself and Miss Lawrence to ensure Small Businesses are safely prepared to welcome customers again . Sec. Mnuchin absolutely. I am not familiar with the specific legislation, but i like the concept. Rep. Balderson appreciated. It is up to 25,000 tax credit. Thank you. Administrator, back to you. If a Business Owner decides to use personal finance moneys, but is not associated with their business to pay off their ppp , loan in order to move forward with the sale of the business, they just have to eat this as a loss . That may be something that you and i have to sit and discuss. Admin. Carranza i agree. I have to understand all the nuances of the particular situation. Rep. Balderson i understand. Admin. Carranza also perhaps there are other businesses that may be facing the same thing that we need to look into. Rep. Balderson mr. Secretary, my last question is for you. As we look towards the next aid package, much of the focus seems to be providing aid to schools, hospitals and First Responders. I support these efforts, but i believe we must continue consideration of americas engine, Small Businesses. I know that the chair and Ranking Member have more to say about this. What other Small Business efforts are also being considered i did not review much time. Sec. Mnuchin various items, but that is something that should be considered and we look forward to working with you. Rep. Balderson thank you, sir. Madam chair, i yield back. Chair. Velazquez the gentleman yields back. We recognize the gentleman from maine, mr. Golden for five minutes. Rep. Golden thank you, madam chair. As you are talking in your Opening Statement about the ppp program, perhaps trying to track at assistance to businesses that need the help the most as well as may be learning from some of the lessons along the way as we worked on the ppp program together, i want to encourage you to look at the restart act introduced in the senate by senators bennett and young and here in the house, by myself. This bill builds upon the ppp program and models itself after that, but i think importantly it has provisions that would target the businesses that can demonstrate a in fact suffered revenue losses over the loss of several months related to coronavirus and the Economic Impact. I dont know if you are familiar with the restart act, but i encourage you to give it a look as you are looking to improve upon what we do next to assist businesses in the United States as we shift into recovery. Sec. Mnuchin i am familiar with it. Parts of it should be incorporated. Rep. Golden thank you for that. I look forward to working with you and with senators and house members on something similar to ppp and the program proposed. I want to raise an issue with you on behalf of critical access care hospitals, including some in my district. Are you familiar with critical access hospitals . Sec. Mnuchin a little bit. Rep. Golden federally defined as providing Important Health care access in rural areas, rural communities. These are hospitals that operate under very thin margins and struggle financially, but it is important that the federal government recognizes how important they are to accessing access to care, in addition to health care. They are often the largest employers in a rural region. Therefore, they are just critically important. Your department has, i think rightly, looked at organizations applying for ppp who are for who are undergoing bankruptcy as ineligible. I understand why you would do that under normal circumstances, but there are a number of Critical Care hospitals who are undergoing chapter 11 restructuring. Given the fact that we are dealing with the pandemic and a recession, and that these hospitals have a very unique federally recognized mission and are providing important access to health care in areas where it is going to be hard even in good times, to be making money, these are really like nonprofit hospital organizations, i was wondering if you would consider reconsidering eligibility for Critical Care hospitals undergoing chapter 11 restructurings for the remaining ppp funding . They have been excluded. You can imagine during this pademic, the fact that they could not do certain types of services, they are really struggling. Several of them are at risk of closing, which would be a terrible loss to these communities. Sec. Mnuchin i am sympathetic to those types of hospitals and i look forward to working with you. Rep. Golden i appreciate that. As you know, the treasury and sba have been able to make changes in the program for eligibility for organizations to include some nonprofit hospitals. Hat are taxexempt those jobs are important to rural communities, but even more important is ensuring access to care is preserved. They have been applying for ppp. They were rejected. In some instances, some of these hospitals have gone to courts, who have said the determinations made by the sba would have to be changed, or congress would have to act. I dont know if you think you need to have some kind of legislative action or you think you have the authority to look at this and make the change yourself, but i want to thank you for working with both my office but also senator kaine and senator collins from maine, and i am sure, other senators who represent similar hospitals in a similar situation are eager to work with you to help some of these hospitals. Chair. Velazquez the gentlemans time has expired. Now we recognize the gentleman from oklahoma. Thank you, madam chair. Ranking member chabot. Mr. Secretary, administrator, thank you for being here. These are unprecedented times. Our office has dealt with many people who have waited weeks and weeks to get their unemployment checks approved, hundreds of thousands across the country. We discussed this on a phone call four months ago where we noted that under current capacity, states were illequipped to handle the influx of applications. To combat this problem and keep hardworking americans employed, Congress Work in a bipartisan way, unprecedented in todays times, to establish the Paycheck Protection Program. While i believe this program could have been expanded and more work to be done to help the americans currently unemployed, this program has successfully saved million jobs in america. 51 it was designed so that when we come out of this pandemic, we can quickly stand up the economy, which is what we have seen in may and june and we continue to see happen now. You have stated many times that the priority of the ppp was preserved and save jobs and employees rather than the Business Owners themselves. Would you still agree with that statement . Sec. Mnuchin yes. Rep. Hern additionally, could you discuss what you have learned from this, or strategies that the federal government can implement in the future to better prepare for this situation in the future . Sec. Mnuchin let me comment on one of the things we liked about the ppp was all the money we were spending on the unemployment side of this was money we saved on unemployment. One of the issues we have learned and we have to fix in the next legislation is a technical issue, where, in certain cases, states were paying people more not to work than to work. Some of the states were better prepared, some of these states had 40yearold computers. I know a lot of people used this, 40 Million People unemployed. Fortunately it is not 40 million , unemployed, we thought it would get to that. Fortunately right now, we only have 18 million unemployed. We have about 14 million more than where we started, and we have to get those people back to work. Thank you. Rep. Hern thank you. Further my team has worked with , hundreds of people who had difficulties receiving their stimulus checks. I know you are aware of this, we talked to your offices. Can you explain briefly what you have seen happen and is there a big issue here, or all of these oneoffs . Sec. Mnuchin all of these oneoffs i am sympathetic, these are people who need their check. I dont mean to minimize this. Again, we sent out over 150 million checks in record time. Yes, there were certain cases because they were either done off previous tax returns or other information, but we will work with you on it. Rep. Hern thank you. Administrator carranza, a few two weeks ago administrator rivera testified regarding the eidl program. During my conversation with the administrator, he committed to providing this committee with a document outlining best practices by september 30, 2020. This would be a document to explain what the sba has learned and how you all believe you can be better prepared in the future should another pandemic arise. As a side note, the administrator stated he had been here since 9 11 and been here through the financial crisis. We keep reinventing the wheel. It seems with all of us engaged in a bipartisan way, we can put a pandemic playbook in place so we could learn from our mistakes and not repeat them again. When we make mistakes, people are harmed or they do not get the stimulus when they need it. If we could learn from it, it would be great. That is a way to do it in a nonpolitical way. One of the key components of this document would be to design a communication plan for future pandemics to help us Work Together. Would you commit to seeing that get done by the end of the First Quarter . Third admin. Carranza yes, congressman. We have already begun, we are preparing how we are addressing. I have started with two oda. Ional sdss and we will and the leadership in oda for future positions. So definitely you will have a full s. O. P. And m. O. P. Rep. Hern as business people, and many of us in this room are business people. I have been in business 35 years. We can talk about what happened but that will not help. If we can get that done, that would be great. Madam chair and Ranking Member, i thank you for allowing us to have this meeting. It is very important. And thank you to both of you for being here and what you have done in these unprecedented times. Gentlemansez the time has expired, so now we recognize the gentleman from new jersey for five minutes. Thank you, madam chair, for convening the meeting. Thank you to the witnesses for showing up. Secretary mnuchin, i wanted to start with you. You rightly noted in your testimony that Small Businesses continue to face dire circumstances right now, even those that received Paycheck Protection Programs loans are telling me that they are unsure whether or not they are going to be able to survive. There are a lot of concerns about the bigger state of our economy and whether or not our economy is going to be able to pursue through the coming months, and if not, is that going to have a negative impact on our Small Businesses . In my home state, we have gone through a tough time over the last couple of months, and we face a tougher challenge ahead when it comes to our state economy. It has been crippled. We have dramatically hampered our recovery especially for Small Businesses. Magically hampered our recovery especially for Small Businesses. These are not just covidrelated expenses, it is about loss of revenue that could cause layoffs, decre secretary, i wanted to ask you if you would continue working with congress ate and local municipalities to solve the crises and create a strong economic recovery . Think, as youi know, we allocated significant amounts of money to covidrelated expenses. We tried to issue guidance to be very clear that money can be used for Law Enforcement and First Responders and others. The issue of lost revenues is a , andmore complicated issue the issue of taxing authorities between the state and local government. We will be working with congress on this. Rep. Kim i raise this because i have heard you talk about what could potentially come next with states and local funding on it. It is central to this th discussion will be having. You have previously described this money as bailouts for some states. So i went to hear from you a little more on that front. I believe that from you, perhaps you dont want to see this funding going to state you characterize as mismanaging fund , because you think it would not be fair to states that are working hard on their economy and their budget, so i have them cover for other states . Is that a correct interpretation of your assessment . Sec. Mnuchin what i have said and i agree with, is that if there were financial conditions that states had coming into this, it is not the federal governments role to bail them out of that. Now, we have to remain through the fed lazaridis, we have provided lending facilities to the states and municipalities. The issue of taxing authority, the federal government has taxing authority and the states have taxing authority. Where there are lost revenues, there is a fairness issue of how those get allocated across the country. Rep. Kim i agree there is a fairness issue at stake. Our state only gets back somewhere around . 75 to . 81 for every dollar we put into the federal government, one of the lowest in the nation. Other states get back well over one dollar. Kentucky gets back to dollars and . 35. I would ask you, is that fair to this president kentucky gets back to dollars . 35. I would ask you, is that fair . Sec. Mnuchin i dont believe that is an appropriate number. The answer is more rich people live in those states and because of the way we have taxes and the rich people are the ones who pay the preponderance of federal taxes, i dont believe the calculation as a result is the right way to look at things. Rep. Kim that is helpful for me to understand how you are approaching this problem. I want to continue to work with you on that, because if new jersey is often calculating that we give into the federal government about 20 billion more than what we get back every year, there is an issue of fairness here. I dont want us in a pandemic to get into a situation where we are trying to pin states against each other. We saw that with p. P. E. With funding, there is a chance for us to think about this, especially when we know the current and former fed chairs have reported he wanted that economic recovery could be hampered if we do not appropriate more aid to states localities. Switching gears, administrator carranza, i understand the Economic Injury loans were capped at 150,000 to ensure all borrowers could access the funds. Changed many businesses. Moving forward, would you commit to removing this cap for new eidls and to allow existing loans to obtain more funding in phase two. Admin. Carranza our experience currently is the average loan has dropped from 63,000 to about 37,000 since we opened in july. Point, the operating expenses that people apply for are not hitting the cap in great numbers. About 1 of applicants are pursuing that amount. We havehe loans processed come in significantly under the 150,000. I will continue assessing it. We are reviewing that on a daily basis and they look forward to working with your office. Admin. Carranza there is no time left. [laughter] we are over time. But i expect for you to lift when therespecially are other states that are facing the pandemic. You cannot predict if any business from those states will need more than 150,000. So the fact that now, those other states, youre not getting those types of applications or that type of amount, does not mean that that will apply to every other. Businesses should have the opportunity to apply for over 150,000 if that is what they need. Admin. Carranza congresswoman, at this time, since we opened up the portal, we have an additional 5 million applications. 1520 daysout remaining with the remaining funds. 150, iep that level of would be able to service 5 million more businesses. Admin. Carranza but from the senators, some of the and congress people, myself included, asked if you need it more than we included in the bill and you said yes. So, come to ask. Tell us when we ask if that is enough. Admin. Carranza i will work with your office. Admin. Carranza thank you. Chairwoman velazquez thank you. We recognize the gentleman from minnesota. Thank you. Secretary carranza, this follows what the chairwoman talked about. I would like to share with you some concerns i have heard from my constituents. S. B. A. Has taken liberties to reduce the cap of to 150 thousand. While this is likely to ensure the maximum number of businesses that receive some funding during this crisis, my constituents are rightly upset. They feel they are being cheated out of what they were promised by the government. I heard your colleague, mr. Rivera on this issue a couple weeks ago, but i wanted to give you the opportunity to respond today. Admin. Carranza i also received there arere calculations and on operating expenses may not have reached 150,000. We took those under special consideration and looks at ways exceed that amount. To exceed 150,000 at this given time would be premature, because we have 5 million applications currently. To the chairwoman, if there are needs for funds, we will bring that up for discussion. What we do with the applicants that need more friends is the council them that there is a ppp program that is also a and we providen, technical assistance. We dont influence, nor do we recommend cannot we just share that there is another option they can consider we dont take lightly the fact that businesses are in need of funds. It is an emergency lifeline we initially thought was going fought this pandemic would be two weeks and now it is a couple of months. We recognize the fact that they are in need of greater funds. Hagedorn thank you. Treasury were given a nearly impossible task. There have been some bumps in the road, but we appreciate the work you secretary carranza and secretary mnuchin have put to help Small Businesses across the nation during the pandemic. My last question will go to secretary mnuchin. From local hearing Grocery Stores and Community Stores of a claims shortage. What are your thoughts for addressing this issue . Have you considered some type of messaging or pr campaign to help jumpstart the claims circulation across the nation . Sec. Mnuchin thank you. We are working closely with the mint and Federal Reserve on the coin shortage. The mint is working overtime. As you said, as a result of covid, a lot of the coinage is stock, but we are working on public messaging and look at updates to your office. Thank you, mr. Secretary. My committee would you happy to help you in that Public Relations campaign. With that, madam chair, i yield back. Chairwoman velazquez a gentleman yield back. We recognize the gentleman from colorado, mr. Crow. Thank you, madam chair. Administrator carranza, on july 6, the s. B. A. Sent to congress a list of loans distributive by district. They sent to my office a list inwing 317 Small Businesses my district received loans over 100 50,000, 30 600 received loans less than that. I need that was not right given the number of businesses in my district. We conducted our own analysis and determined 1400 businesses in my district received loans over 150,000. Over 10,000 that received under 150,000. The data was welloff. What are you doing to fix it . Sec. Carranza i would like to meet with you and address those statistics. We would be immature to comment on these data points that i am not familiar with at this point, so i look forward to working with you. Rep. Crow you will commit to work with me and every other member of congress . Sec. Carranza absolutely, the entire committee. Rep. Crow ok. Was very pleased to hear from secretary mnuchin that he would commit to working with us to look at how to get that 100 stilln plus of money available to members of the black and Brown Community and to womenowned businesses and others that are hardhit. Do you share that commitment, and you commit now to develop a program to get money to those businesses . Sec. Carranza yes, i do. We have been working in concert with the treasury, we have worked together on but it , thes, savings and loans fintech organizations, many of these Community Banks are the ones that are very specialized in providing loans to these particular underserved communities. Definitely, i agree with you. Thank you. I appreciate that commitment. Secretary mnuchin, you have had a long career in investment correct . Nd banking, sec. Mnuchin i have not been in Investment Banking for close to 18 years but i have been in banking. Rep. Crow when you are in banking, you advised your banks on where to send money and to to, to make loans and funds correct . Sec. Mnuchin i had a regionalbased bank, i did not advise where to give money. I served on a loan committee. Crow you advised whom to give loans your banks would make decisions on where to spend money and give loans to, correct . Sec. Mnuchin customers applied for loans and the banks made credit decisions. [no audio] chairwoman velazquez mr. Crow, we cannot hear you. Rep. Crow requirements as to whether or not an employee of the bank, a Family Member or you or one of your employees or close business relationship was one of the recipients of that money. There are Disclosure Requirements, correct, in the financial industry . Sec. Mnuchin there are Disclosure Requirements and also requirements by the fdic. Rep. Crow what are the purpose of those Disclosure Requirements . Sec. Mnuchin the real focus is a conflict of interest. To the extent there is a conflict of interest, in many cases, it has to go to the board of directors to be approved. It is more focused on conflict of interest than disclosure. Rep. Crow you need to have the disclosure in order to do that analysis, correct . Sec. Mnuchin again, most banks dont publicly disclose. Mnuchin, secretary you have to have the disclosure of information in order to do the analysis on conflicts of interest . Sec. Mnuchin disclosure within correct. , yes, that is rep. Crow by that same rationale, is it important that members of the trump family, associates of the trump organization, or employees of the administration this close their interest in receiving again, let me repeat . Sec. Mnuchin again, let me repeat. Rep. Crow i asked a specific question, do you think that disclosure is necessary in the context of the administration . Sec. Mnuchin again, i dont believe that because this was not an issue required by congress, it was a very specific issue and there were no restrictions. I am not aware if they took loans or they did not, but there was no restrictions on the p. P. P. There were restrictions for the administration and congress, the iterms on the other dont think the Trump Administration should be held to the same standard as congress on the p. P. P. Rep. Crow they should not be held to the same standards as your banks and the financial industry you belonged to during your career . Sec. Mnuchin i think you are misrepresenting my comments on, again, conflict of interest versus disclosure. Rep. Crow i think i was very clear. ,y time is up, i yield back chairwoman. Thank you. Chairwoman velazquez the gentlemans time has expired. We recognize the gentleman from tennessee, mr. Burchett. Is he here . Rep. Burchett yes, can you hear me . Chairwoman velazquez yes, i can hear you. Rep. Burchett thank you. I hope my melodious voice carries well over the internet. Thank you all for letting me be here, chair lady and Ranking Member. Administrator carranza, i might have missed this earlier, i am having trouble hearing what people are saying. If you could just give me a brief answer. Night, the s. B. A. Still does not have a portal to access existing loan forgiveness applications. Why is this . Admin. Carranza the forgiveness portal, or the application or guidance, will be out very shortly. We are resolving some of the language between treasury and s. B. A. It is going to be available very, very soon. Rep. Burchett wendy you think that would be . Government, very soon is like a glacier. I am in tennessee. Admin. Carranza i have not been greatly, and we are in a pandemic, but we are working as quick as we can. We trying to make it right the first time and address all the issues raised by the lenders and the borrowers as well. If i can tell you, by august, that will be the target date. Rep. Burchett 2020 . Admin. Carranza yes, sir. [laughter] rep. Burchett had to get that clear. Yes, maam. Secretary mnuchin, in your opinion, how should congress utilize the remaining 103 billion in p. P. P. Funding . Sec. Mnuchin my suggestion is that congress would reauthorize the program to allow for a second payment to the businesses that are most hardhit. Rep. Burchett which would those be, in your opinion . Sec. Mnuchin we should use a revenue test, so, as opposed to i dont think any specific industry should be targeted, we should use a revenue test. Something significant. Rep. Burchett i caught part of that earlier but it cut out. Secretary mnuchin, do you believe the nations smallest businesses, those with 10 or less, received the assistance they needed to survive this emergency . Sec. Mnuchin many of them did. I am sure there were some that fell through the cracks, but we are very proud of the majority of the loans went to Small Businesses. Rep. Burchett ms. Carranza, what measures are in place of the s. B. A. To reduce the waste and fraud and abuse in the eidl and the p. P. P. . Admin. Carranza we have developed an infrastructure that is overseen by our cfo, and we as well so we can have Institutional Knowledge as it relates to experience in the lending sector. We have a very comprehensive approach to oversight, not only for the p. P. P. , but the eidl, and ongoing audits of the c. A. R. E. S. Act implementation total. Rep. Burchett can we have a flowchart, something we can have just, when we talk to our folks, our local media about that, we can inquire . Admin. Carranza yes. I have no hesitation reviewing what our strategy looks like with the committee. Rep. Burchett if you can get that to the committee, i would be very grateful. Admin. Carranza will do. Rep. Burchett noting that august is my birthday month, that would be great. [laughter] thank you, chair lady. Always good to see you. Chairwoman velazquez you are welcome. Thank you. The gentleman yield back. We recognize the gentlelady from ms. As, missed david davids. Rep. Davids thank you for hosting this important hearing today. Secretary mnuchin and administrator carranza, i appreciate both of you appearing before the committee to answer questions and discussing the way forward in supporting our businesses through this crisis. We enacted a Paycheck Protection Program to ensure that our countrys Small Businesses can keep employees on payroll and keep businesses afloat. Many Small Businesses in my home state of kansas, especially minority owned ones, struggled to access the program during a critical time. At the same time, we saw wellconnected and even publicly traded Companies Getting these loans, little to no problems. Or even borrowing when they had already borrowed from their own executives. I believe kansans need to know that their tax dollars are not being used to pay back high dollar salary for their executives. I have been working with my colleagues in this committee to push for accountability and transparency that the public deserves. In fact, i introduced the p. P. P. Accountability act which would ensure that both congress and the public were able to see the information about the loan themselves. Or i appreciate it let you listen to some of these concerns and have made some of the initial data public. We knows information, that in the kansas third district, close 100,000 jobs were retained and preserved. We also know that there is a lot of information we heard from some of my colleagues today a lot of information we still do not know, like what loan forgiveness rates will look like, the rate at which minority businesses have received loans. This is essential for congress to provide the oversight we are constitutionally mandated to provide. Will start with secretary mnuchin and administrator carranza, can you tell us what your plans are for releasing the data of the recipients for the loan forgiveness portion here . Say,mnuchin let me first i agree with your comment on public companies. You know there was about 30 billion returned. As the administrator said, we will have a very robust process to review loans before loans are forgiven. ,n the forgiveness process people will be required to provide much more data and that data will be released. Rep. Davids i know you had mentioned earlier, and it was highlighted a couple of times that there is definitely a commitment to making sure that minorityowned and women owned businesses, and some of the most marginalized or disadvantaged Small Businesses out there should be getting access to these loans at the same rate as everyone else. Some of the fields included in the data are optional. When we talk about how many jobs are saved through loans and democratic information demographic information being optional, i am curious what your plans are to evaluate the effectiveness and reach of the program without this information. I appreciate your commitment to making sure that some of the most bonobo businesses out there are getting loans and img curious how you will get there with some of these information being optional . Sec. Mnuchin the jobs numbers. Ill be required when people apply for forgiveness, they will have to be specific and how much money was used for payroll and the number of jobs. As it relates to demographics, this is optional. There are legal issues associated with forcing people to give demographics. We have looked at low and moderate income census tracks and we are pleased that money was this to be did proportionately. But we look forward to working with you and the committee on transparency and collecting more of this information. Rep. Davids i appreciate that. I know that this has certainly iterative process particularly the rolling out of the guidance and the roles of these programs. Working hard at the s. B. A. And Treasury Department. I have a lot of appreciation for the career folks putting in tons. F hours thank you both for continuing to show up and listen to our concerns. I went to particularly thank for listening to the concerns that my office put forward about Tribal Enterprises and making sure the Paycheck Protection Program was accessible to all travel enterprises. I look forward to working with you to make sure our Small Businesses are taken care of in this country. Chairwoman velazquez time has expired. We recognize the gentleman from pennsylvania, dr. Joyce, for five minutes. Rep. Joyce chairwoman velazquez and Ranking Member chabot, thank you for convening us today. Administrator carranza and secretary mnuchin, thank you for joining us and thank you for your leadership during an incredibly difficult time. Small businesses, which we in this group frequently state are , duringbone of america this crisis, they have become the heart of america. According to data that you have s. B. A. , myom the district fortunately has received 295 million in ppp loans. This number represents over 2700 Small Businesses which were able to retain their employees, pay their benefits, their health insurance. It was a significant relief for the Small Businesses in pennsylvania. Would beer substantially lower had it not been for your attentiveness to the needs of the farmers. On the half of pennsylvania farmers, i thank you for your willingness to work with my office on adjusting these programs to fit the needs of our agricultural producers. Feed uso every day safe and nutritious food. Administrator carranza, as we continue to reopen our economy, it is possible that people may increasingly rely on the internet platforms to purchase goods and services, and to even work from home. While these platforms provide enormous opportunities for Small Businesses, this transition could further stretch the Digital Divide between urban affordableesses and access to and reliable broadband in the rural areas that have less reliable internet options. This response to covid19 has been an impetus for innovation. Were very striking to those of us sitting here in the committee. You support further modifications of the ppe that would allow funding to be used for broadband achievements or other costs associated with the tools and infrastructure that is so necessary to allow rural Small Businesses to telework effectively and utilize Online Platforms . I have always been a strong proponent of costeffective broadband for rural areas in underserved markets and so i look forward to working with you to continue that discussion. Thank administrator. Areas cann our rural necessarily access areas of commerce. Considerationthis and for allowing us to continue this discussion and evaluate the use of ppe to support rural broadband. Thank you for utilizing the can positively affect Small Businesses that have been and continue to be drastically affected by code. Covid. Thank you for focusing on different businesses and considering the additional Economic Impact. I think it is a reliable model that will allow us to move forward and effectively utilize the remaining funds. Thank you for your continued work with us, secretary, and for your efforts to return those remaining workers to their jobs. Do you feel that utilizing additional ppe resources will allow us to continue to see those additional workers return to full employment . Yes. Thank you both for being here today. Then you for continuing your work and i yield the remainder of my time. Gentlemen yields back that mr. Cognize mr. Fruman mfume. Chair, think you very much for the opportunity. Thank you for your relentless efforts to try and bring about the artist and the to this issue and the overall sphere of what is happening with Small Businesses. I want to thank the Ranking Member and guests who are here. People who see the rollout of funds of this project and are being torry. It being something that works for others but does not work for them and is something they believed was set up to be that way. People have their own beliefs, shortcomings and misgivings about things, but when they look at the fact that the president s ander received ppe funding members of congress have received it, that private equity chains have received this look at it is hard to those persons and say that is not the case, these are just coincidences. Backdrop forf that me that i am concerned we continue to have this discussion about bringing equity to black, brown and korean businesses. I think if we were true to what we were saying to begin with, whether it was this program or another that preceded it, that would be something we could look for. Something we automatically had as a threshold something we wanted to achieve. ,nd as i said the other day having served on this committee for 10 years through the 80s and 90s, through three president ial administrations and then to be fortunate enough to return 20 years later to be a part of this congress and committee, it is disheartening for me to look back and recognize that many of the same arguments advocating on behalf advocating on behalf of black and brown and korean businesses for fairness and equity are still being made. It is almost unconscionable. It is unbelievable. In fact through the ten years that i was here in the 24 years that i was gone i would not believe. It people are concerned. Secretary mnuchin and madam administrator, what they see does not shell with what they have been led to believe. They think that the awarding of this program in some way represents robin hood in reverse. The people who really should be getting some of this money on a fair barest basis are not getting it. They anticipate that there will be another review, another study, then another plan before the plan a that failed. I want to get that on the record. Hes people oftentimes do not have an opportunity to speak for themselves. Let me just say to that in the hearing conducted by this Community Committee and june 17, we learned of many issues that many borrowers and lenders have faced in applying for and using ppp dollars. Witnesses outlined various areas of improvement, including and not limited to more explicit rules, clearer guidance around loan forgiveness and more accessibility for minority owned and underserved businesses. They believe those are crucial issues. We learned that the structure and implementation of ppp continues as has been said, to disadvantage smaller businesses, specifically businesses of color. That is due to structural limitations that were due to the program. I think both of you would probably agree that ppp funding is heavily dependent on traditional Financial Institutions and prior banking relationships. Many of those institutions have been documented to have biased in their rewarding of loans and biased in their consideration of loans. Not to mention any different assignment of risk for persons who maybe black, latino or asian. So those things have traditionally hampered black businesses and when we get to the stage, this juncture, persons like myself at least, youve got to show me that this is not true. Prior to the june 17th hearing, both of you know that a letter was sent to each of your departments inquiring how and why minority businesses have had so much trouble at being denied. In many instances for the Paycheck Protection Program. We need transparency. We requested that you immediately begin publishing the Demographic Data on ppp recipients on july 6th. That data was released and our worst anecdotal observations were confirmed, especially my congressional district, where in the entire state of maryland, which is not a large state. This is not california or texas. There are only a congressional districts. The district i represent got 2. 7 of funding. Time is out. Yes, sir. We recognize the gentleman from north carolina. Thank you, chairman velasquez. And all the Committee Members physically present in this room along with our distinguished witnesses, which demonstrates the kind of leadership the people need to see. I have joined those who complemented you and served with you, especially for your historic accomplishment and implementing the paycheck program. Secretary mnuchin, as you have observed, the key to that Historic Success and speed was enlisting private sectors, Financial Institutions, including traditional banks, see the feyes to serve as a conduit for massive relief to huge numbers of businesses. We would be wise to continue the model of ppp and keep private sector lenders and listed and mission, but we have heard that lender fatigue is an issue. This is attributable in part to the fact that after these business entities chunk to respond to the call of the federal government, a number now face frivolous lawsuits proving that too often, when government is concerned, no good deed goes unpunished. As the administration looked at additional relief measures, it seems to me that we should try to prove that adage wrong for once, mainly by clarifying that the current whole harmless language which protects ppp landers from liability applies mister secretary and madam administrator, isnt it important to fight lender fatigue in this way . Will you work with us on the protection for lenders who have done so much to land in the Current Crisis . Yes, thank you. Likewise. Should we not also be looking at that same issue for Small Businesses who faced similar concerns. That is, frivolous lawsuits . Yes. One of the concerns i had was that we do not take any measures that would be punitive to the borrower or the lender, especially when we have started with 1800 and grew to 5500. The secretary and i are still working on an additional non traditional lenders that are still applying to provide ppp loans. We are looking forward to making sure that the proprietors and independent contractors have an opportunity with this over 100 billion dollars that remain. Thank you, maam. Administrator carranza, i want to follow up on an issue that disturbed millions of americans. It is not known that planned planned parenthood violated the law by taking 80 Million Dollars of ppp loans via its affiliates. The American People want to know, how the sba failed to act this wrongdoing and how it will act quickly to return those funds as quickly as possible . I will answer that question in two manners. One, we do not discuss individual loan issues publicly. Secondly, we will be reviewing all affiliations and all loans closely. Madam chairman, i request unanimous consent to submit the 2020 letter planned parenthood delaware incorporated finally, mister secretary, your testimony refer to your anticipation of additional relief to business, and importantly that it will be targeted in parts of the economy that is needed most as our economy starting to move from lockdown to restart. Undoubtedly, the lockdowns hit Certain Industries harder. I was pleased to hear that you targeted the relief the Administration Proposes on relying on neutral standards such as document pandemic revenue laws. Can you elaborate on the threshold you have in mind of revenue laws that would warrant relief, and do you believe relief would be graduated and proportion to the degree of revenue laws . I look forward to working with this committee and the Senate Committee to determine those issues. Again, as you just raised, we should look at whether it should be a specific number or graduated. Yes, we look forward to working with you. I think it is important that we target this to the businesses that are hardest hit. Agreed, mister secretary. Last one, im curious if you would agree. The reason to do that, targeting according to revenue laws rather than picking specific industries, its that to do the latter would be over inclusive and under inclusive. You might arbitrarily pick rather and then responding to a particular need. Yes. Thank you, madam chairman. The gentle lady from california is recognized for five minutes. Yes, administrator carranza, i would like to follow up on this issue of planned parenthood. Planned parenthood has been a land mine for health care providers. There affiliates serve nearly 3 million patients annually. And its an Important Health care provider for many low and come people across the nation. Let me say, planned parenthood affiliates operate independently from the national organization, each having their own ceos and board of directors. Therefore, they qualify for ppp. On may 28, i called out a letter to your agency along with chairwoman velasquez. By 166 members of congress. We asked you to administer the ppp program in a uniform manner, and specifically not to exclude any entity or non profit on the basis of political ideology. This letter came in response to numerous planned parenthood affiliates learning that they were under investigation for violation of the ppp rules. Even though they were not. Im deeply concerned about the motivations which would have prompted the investigations into the eligibility of planned parenthood affiliates, especially after several of them learned about these investigations, first from fox news rather than from the sba directly. Administrator carranza, the over 500,000 health care that receive ppp loans, can you tell the committee how many investigations into violations affiliation rules have been conducted, and has the sba initiated such investigations against other non profit organizations for violation of affiliation rules under the ppp . At this point, i am not able to discuss any particular loan review. I am not in a position to discuss any others that we are reviewing. The specific one that you are referring to is under review as well as others. But i will not get into any specifics about that. I am sorry. Then let me focus in on another issue. Mister secretary and miss administrator, two mandates of the cares act. One is that all covid19 long programs can be translated into the ten most commonly spoken languages other than english. The other mandate is that tpp should prioritize underserved businesses such as those owned by women, minorities and others. Despite this clear mandate, treasury and sba failed to even collect demographic beta data of ppp applicants. As a result, the longlevel data raised by or agencies showed that for instance, and california, only 6 of loans under 150, 000, included information on race and ethnicity. The sba general testified to the subcommittee that i chair, the oversight committee, that agencies felt to lenders on how to prioritize underserved businesses, and of course, to adequately collect data. To demonstrate the seriousness of this failure just this week, the National Committee published a study showing that black Business Owners with identical or better finances than white Business Owners were less likely to be offered federal assistance by participating ppp lenders. Mister secretary, please explain why you have not provided this guidance to lending institutions on how to prioritize the underserved and what you are doing to address this issue as well as the collection of Demographic Data. And miss carranza, i appreciate your testimony that it has been translated into 17 languages. But the application is still not translated. What is happening with that . First, let me just say, the demographics information was always really intended to be collected on the forgiveness, so again, this is something we could not force people to do. We hope people will do this and there will be a lot of information disclosed. We made major efforts to work with the cdc fives for greater access. As i said, we do have access to trucks. Again, we can always do a better job, and we will. Gentle ladys time has expired. Miss corona, you may answer the question. Concerning the language, we have 17 language interpretations of ppe. I will have to look into how many languages for the idle. That program was also meant to have bilingual the gentleman from pennsylvania, mr. Evans is recognized for five minutes. Thank you, madam chair for your leadership, especially on this subject. And staying relentless. Madam chair, is it possible for the gentleman from baltimore i dont have much time to give an answer to this question. The gentleman from maryland is recognized. Thank, you madam chair. I will not take much time. The point i was trying to make is that when the data did finally get released after our letter, the data that was released for all of us on july the 6th, it showed that in the state of maryland, which only has a congressional district, the one i currently represent now, that 2. 7 . 2. 7 of all of the funding, even though it is the most diverse district with black, latino and korean business persons anywhere in the state. This district had been previously previously put represented by elijah cummings. We have been without a representative for some time. There is no reason in gods world that there should be that kind of a disparity. So obvious in a district and particular that diverse. I yield back the time to the gentleman from pennsylvania. I appreciate it. Thank you. I want to specifically go to the secretary of the treasury and kind of go back a little bit on what we just stated. The question i have is, what are you doing to address the discriminatory loan practices, and what are you going to do to hold these banks accountable . I think the chair person and chairwoman who worked together about cdfi, what do you specifically because obviously, black borrowers are treated differently than white borrowers. Can you speak about this . Ive had multiple calls with chairwoman waters, and they have been very constructive and helpful. We have also made a major effort to work with the cdfi and expand the cdfi, and we are pleased with their work. Robert smith, as i have commented before, has been particularly helpful. Weve had Weekly Conference calls with his team. We have to do a better job to make sure that all areas and all communities have access to these funds. To the extent that there are specific situations discrimination or others. Obviously, we want to research that. When you say better, you have a lot of experience. The gentleman from colorado talked about your background. Can you, in a specific way, tell us what tools you intend to use, especially when you know that this problem does exist . Let me just repeat. The statistic we have on low to moderate income housing, is we did have proper representation. That obviously is different than other demographics. The cdfi is best used at being able to access the underserved communities, and that is why we proactively put a cdfi set aside, something we very much support, and we support an additional legislation making sure that the cdfi has the proper resources to serve these communities. The idle program relating to constituents amounts who called about the question around credit. Tell me what was your thinking in terms of receiving that information. Was there a ranking of order relating to idle distribution of grants, relating to the idle program. The idle advance administration was based on the number of applications that were again, in the queue, applying for advanced, and we based it on 1000 dollars per employee. It was just an arbitrary number, it was a well assessed and analyzed strategy. It was discussed with members of the Small Business committee. We advised them that in order to cover the number of applicants and Small Businesses that were applying for the advance, we needed to do something so that many poor people would receive the funds. The average for both the agriculture as well as normal businesses were about three employees per business. The gentlemans time has expired. The gentleman from illinois, mr. Snyder is recognized for five minutes. Thank, you madam chair. I want to thank everyone for the congressional oversight of these programs. When we think strategically about our posture going into the fall. I think he was always for the work that youve been doing throughout this process. Secretary mnuchin and venus carranza, thank you for joining us today throughout this pandemic. Administrator carranza, you assured me that the complaints about the idle program, the lack of communication, the backlog of applications have been address. Ive heard you say you compressed the time, the processing to only five days, but my concern is that at this moment as we are in this kind of a diner in between lunch and dinner, things are quiet, but it will get busy again soon when everybody starts to run out. When you talk about the 150,000 dollars as a cap and you earlier mentioned it when you created that arbitrary cap, that goes across the river, but without a full bridge, many of these businesses will find themselves in the river getting wet. Many of them will drown. We need your help and we hope that you will remove the cap and help the businesses. Economic uncertainty continues and will continue in the months ahead as Small Businesses are still going to need more help in the fall. I would like to discuss the treasurys preparations to anticipate the expected surge and challenges and the fall. Earlier this week i sent both of you a letter with questions on the ppp and idle loans. What gaps remain and where agencies are doing to anticipate that. What economic forecasts to anticipate future needs . I think Economic Modeling is particularly hard at the moment, because of the fact that we closed down the economy. This is not a typical economic situation, but we are relying upon our economic models. What we do anticipate as we open economy and that we will have a significant improvement, as ive said and the third quarter, but there will be industries, and weve done Economic Modeling within the treasury on the industries that are going to be hit the hardest, and the sizing that we need for additional ppp funds. We will be working with this committee and the senate on that. Do your models take into account the fact that what we are seeing in california, texas, arizona, louisiana, florida, a serious spike in cases . California, youre seeing businesses closed down again. Are the models being taken into consideration . Let me first say that traditional economic models, given the medical situation are very hard. We are looking at this across the entire u. S. , and certain scenarios as you said where there will be a slowdown in opening, and certain areas where things are doing better. Again, that is the reason why we need additional funds to help these hardest hit businesses. I appreciate it is hard, but it is necessary. It is also necessary for these businesses and other organizations like schools, to have clear and consistent guidance. Ive had conversations with businesses yesterday with a group and a school superintendent. All of them were talking about the challenges they are facing with the lack of clarity and the guidance coming from both your department as well as others. I ask the superintendents about the teachers. They said theyre absolutely terrified about going back to work. I dont think the government is doing nearly enough to provide that guidance. I hope we can see more guidance. As you are looking at forward thinking and what we might need, how can you incorporate the data you have, the uncertainty that lies aheads to make sure we get better guidance to our businesses Going Forward . I can assure you that the task force will be working and continue to work with the states on guidance, and obviously the states will refine it based on different areas. On your comment, i expect that we will have a significant amount of money dedicated to cater to 12 k to 12 education to help deal with them as areas that reopen have the proper money to fit so that it is safe for students and for teachers. Thank you. It is critical, but the guidance on how to use the money. In my last few seconds, when we spoke last, i give you a letter last month asking for an update on 59 businesses in my district that still has not received a decision on their idol application. Over 20 of those companies are still waiting. Can you give us an estimate of when we will get these companies and my districts. Theyre waiting and trying to get the information to survive this pandemic . The gentlemans time has expired. You may answer. Congressman, i look forward to working with your office to identify the remaining balances of those businesses to come to a conclusion. Thank you. With that, i yield. The gentleman from new york is recognized for five minutes. You need to unmute yourself. We cannot hear you, so im going to recognize the gentleman from new york for five minutes. Thank you, chairwoman. I want to thank both administrator carranza and secretary mnuchin for being with us today. While the ppp and idle programs have been critical for Small Business owners, i want to take a moment to highlight a bill that i introduced that was included in the cares package. The Small Business repayment relief act, now known as the Small Business debt relief program. It provides six months of payments of principle interest and fees for qualified loans including essay, and microloans. In the month of april, the sba made payments to lenders just over one billion. These payments corresponded to 263,000 total borrowers. However, estimates provided by the Congressional Research service indicate that there are about 320,000 outstanding loans across these three programs. Administrator carranza, youve noted during a Small Business Committee Hearing last month, that the sba took steps to notify borrowers of this benefit but needed to do more outreach to ensure borrowers who were illegible were aware of this benefit. Can you tell me what concrete steps you have taken to ensure that every eligible borrower is able to take advantage of these six months of payments . Yes, weve dealt with the lenders and intensify the communications. As a result of that, we realize it has gone from one billion to three billion dollars of debt relief. We can do more, because as you stated, there is still an opportunity to work not only with the existing businesses, but others that are interested, and we are very pleased about. Idle for is not growing as quickly. We need to intensify in that particular area. Im very pleased to announce that within the hub zone, the five or four false in that area, the underserved market. We have over under the ppp program. We look forward to look working with your office if you have any particular areas you would like to concentrate on. I would like to just follow up, if i may. You said you contacted the lenders, and then you said you could do more. I am curious if you are able to detail what the more would include. Followup calls to the individuals that we initially contacted through our office. Anything else . Again, i look forward to speaking with you and working up a strategy if you have a particular area that you believe we could do a better job of. I will go back to the office and inquire as to how we can work with all of the other program offices. Seven a has progress, but five oh for not as strong. We have seen an increase of over a couple of billion dollars since we have spoke. Since the hearing. Given that seven a has increased wealth, among of the things that are being done with regards to that loan, that could be utilized with regards to the other major brands that could help close the gap that we are speaking of now. Congressman, we have been talking about strengthening the flagship loans. We have been communicating that information to treasury. We should definitely coordinate with our offices and talk more about other concrete steps we could take to help facilitate this. We also do not know how much has been spent through this Program Since may. We do not know how much has gone to new qualified loans compared to existing. We dont know how many borrowers have yet to receive. That we do not know which lenders have failed to comply. On june 5th, we sent a letter requesting this information. Do you have this information available, or when can we expect this information . I look forward to working with your staff and if we have the data, which we reconcile on a quarterly basis from what i understand, we could make that available to you in short order. We sent a letter on june 5th. I just want to know if you have received the letter. I am sure our Congressional Legislature offices working on it. I look forward again to connect with your office and resolve that particular issue. And provide the information that you need. I appreciate that. We certainly would like to accelerate this process, given the needs. Im sure you can imagine the importance of that. With that, i yield back. The gentleman yields back. The gentleman is recognized for five minutes. He is not ready. He is having some technical issues. The gentlelady from minnesota. Can you hear me now, madam chair . Yes, i can hear. You will you allow me to proceed . Go ahead. You are recognized for five minutes. Thank, you madam chair. Thank you Ranking Members. Thank you, administrator carranza and secretary mnuchin. Several months back, i spoke with this committee and i said that Small Businesses, moms and pops stores throughout new york were really upset and mad as hell, and i am really amazed to see how everybody is praising the ppp program and how it began, because we all know it was at the back of the portal crash, traditional Banking Institutions went to their preferred customers. Only the well connected were able to get access to the ppp program to the degree that many of them or shamed into returning the money, because they were publicly embarrassed that they were accessing this money. Small businesses throughout america felt that mainstream should be bailed out. We already bailed out wall street. Wed already bailed out the airline industry, that main street needed to be bailed out and the startup of the ppp program in fact it took a carved out of some money and acknowledging that we needed to engage Community Based banking and city law to access dollars and give them to Small Businesses across main street in america. But even with that, we have recently seen how a New York Times journal reported on an investigation made by the new york city controller revealed that only 12 of the 1. 1 million businesses, employee based businesses and new york city got ppp loans, in comparison to 20 of businesses in states like montana, kansas, iowa, wyoming and etc, while the pandemic was ravaging new york, the ppp program was giving money to those states that were the least impacted by the pandemic. My first question to you, secretary, you mentioned you will carve out some money for minority women owned businesses. How much money from the remaining part of the ppp program and additional funding that will come for it will you carve out for that particular part of the economy . The second question is, mister secretary, will you consider having some parity and the level of access to the ppp program for states like new york, which contribute far more to the federal office and contributes in ways that other states do not, and yet they get far less again only 12 of businesses here got that, as opposed to 20 in states like kansas, wyoming, iowa and montana. Those are my two questions. How much money will you carve up for the minority women owned businesses and do you want is there an effort to give states like new york which were hammered. The bronx were hammered by the pandemic. Has one of the lowest numbers of ppp loans given to their businesses. In fact, if you look at who got the loans, you will see that many Management Consulting firms guided. Legal Services Firms got it as opposed to say for example, nursing homes, which i think were critical and bringing life and Death Services to people who were impacted by the pandemic. Those are my two questions, mister secretary. As it relates to the first question, there was a specific dollar amount for the set aside. I will be working with this committee and the senate to see what both committees think is appropriate for that. I am sure we can reach an agreement to something that is appropriate and significant. As it relates to new york, im not sure why more ppp loans have not been made their. There is still money available. To the extent that there are businesses in your area that need loans. We are more happy to work with you. I dont believe there should be set aside for certain states. I think it took a while to get this up and running, but now we have a system that will work well in the next round. Now, mister secretary, now that the pandemic is ravaging the rest of the country and states like florida, you must agree that florida, texas and arizona are getting hard hit, right now. In fact, some of those businesses may have to shut down. Perhaps, as new york looks to reopen, this is the perfect time to focus in places in new york to see how we can help new york. Is there a commitment to help Small Businesses, a minority women owned businesses in the United States . The gentlemans time has expired. We now recognize the gentlelady from minnesota, miss craig. Thank you so much, madam chairwoman. I want to say thank you to administrator carranza and secretary mnuchin for your efforts over the course of the last three months. This committee has been really a model of bipartisan efforts to save our Small Businesses. I just want to say thank you to my colleagues across the aisle as well. Secretary mnuchin, i was going to ask you, and administrator carranza, about extending the ppp applications for a second loan. We have indicated you are open to that idea. I actually have the bill here in the house that would allow those hardest hit sectors like restaurants, retail and hospitality to come back and get a second forgivable loan if their revenue has been impacted by 50 or more in the size of their business is 100 or fewer employees. With that, remaining approximately 130 billion dollars. I also have the bill a couple of weeks ago that passed the house. Thank you to the president for signing the extension of the loan program through august 8th. I will tell you that i already, this week have been meeting with small lenders, Community Lenders who have been telling me that the smallest of smallest businesses, loans of 6000 dollars, 9000 dollars people are coming back and getting the ppp loan for the first time in the smallest of loans, which is really heartwarming. I thank you for extending that. Secretary mnuchin, can you just say a little bit more about the program as you would envision it, of allowing those hardest hit sectors to come back, and i just want to make sure that i understand the direction that you any ministration are taking as well. My suggestion, and we look forward to working with you, but my suggestion would be that we have a program that works. We try to keep as many parts of the program consistent. We allow a second check. We put a limitation on a revenue decline and a size. We understand your bill. I think it is a reasonable approach, but again, we will want to work with you, this committee, the senate, to figure out what the appropriate revenue decline should be. What the size of the businesses should be, whether it should be 100 or slightly higher than that. But again, we have complete agreement that there should be a second check available to the businesses that are hardest hit. There should be requirements around that. Thank you so much. My lenders in my Small Businesses, as of this week, are starting to ask the question, administrator carranza and secretary mnuchin, if there is any thought with respect to the smallest of smallest loans. I know there is a senate bill that defines it as a 150,000 or less, but that would absolve these businesses from essentially filling out those loan forgiveness applications just from the perspective of the bureaucracy of doing that. Is there any thought on either of your parts that whatever number we might not require or should we be advising our Small Businesses, get your materials ready. Everybody will have to fill out this long business application . Weve put out what we put out the easy form. I think there are certain things that we could work with the committee on in new legislation to simplify this even more. I am somewhat hesitant to just say or send a blank check. If you are 150,000 or less you dont have to do anything, because im concerned about fraud. I want to make sure that the oversight committees are comfortable that this money was used appropriately. I think some level of reporting in a simple way is important. Thank you so much. Two final things, very very quickly. Initial cares act with the 1200 dollar Economic Impact payment i know over the course of the next couple of weeks you will be working with the senate, the house, perhaps on a second or an additional bill. He 17 and 18 year olds were left out as dependence, adult disabled dependence. College students like mine back in the basement eating us out of the house and home. Would you be open to including them in the next package in making that retroactive . Let me say, from a policy standpoint, i understand the issue and im sympathetic to. It there are some technical issues that the irs, and we have them administering that because of the way dependence were reported on tax returns. We are trying to root figure out how to try to try to do that. With that, madam chairwoman, i yield back. Gentlelady yields back. Let me thank the administrator and the secretary of the treasury. Thank you again for discussing your agencys response to the covid19 pandemic. I am dedicated to pushing sba and pressuring to prioritize our very small and underserved businesses, because this community are hurting. The programs have been faced with challenges for participants on a larger transparency for those abroad seeking to conduct oversight. With that said, i expect regular updating to the data on ppp and forgiveness in the future. I also ask that you publish a comprehensive program guide. We cannot continue to operate this way. It is not good for lenders or borrowers. We cannot work when there are not at least 22 final rules on 49 frequently asked questions that borrowers and lenders must navigate. Understanding that this program was put up with extraordinary speed, it is long overdue that a comprehensive guide is published. I ask unanimous consent that members have five days to submit statements and supporting materials for the record. If there is no further business before the committee, we are adjourned. Thank you. Is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. Visit ncicap. Org] [indiscernible conversations] on thursday, pharmaceutical officials to testify on covid19 Vaccine Research and development before house energy subcommittee. Watch live, 10 am on cspan three, on cspan. Org, on the free cspan radio app. All persons having business before the United States Supreme Court are asked to get their attention. Landmark cases, spends a special history series produced in cooperation with the National Constitution center. Exploring the human story and constitutional dramas behind 12 historic Supreme Court decisions for number