Student, student of International Affairs who took a an interest in public issues. She could not vote yet that tenant farmers on our farm, some of whom were illiterate could vote. Host who was harry byrne and why does he play a central role in your story . Guest Harry Thomas Byrne was the youngest legislator in the tennessee General Assembly in 1920. He was a freshman delegate. He was up for reelection in the fall. He represented a small hill town in east tennessee, the republican part of tennessee. And he, although he voted with the antisuffragists and the nt ratification nests from the 19th amendment, was upper ratification and that tennessee General Assembly that summer, he changed his mind because of a letter he received from his mother we described in that clip. That change of mind tilted the vote by one vote and that is how the 19th amendment was finally ratified. Host how did the vote for ratification of the constitutional amendment come down to tennessee . Guest a convoluted path. The constitution says amendments have to be passed by congress by a two thirds vote in each chamber. Then it has to be ratified by three quarters of the state in the union. At that time there were 48 states, which met 36 had to ratify. In the summer of 1920, 35 had ratified. You had just one more state was needed for full ratification. It would enter the constitution. And american women in every state would be able to vote in that 1920 election. That was a president ial year. A pivotal election. It turns out, that tennessee was the last possible choice for a place, for a state to ratify. Most of the other states in the south had actually rejected, already rejected the 19th amendment. And there were a few outstanding states, but two of them were in new england, connecticut and vermont. The governors that refused to call their legislators back into special session, which is what it would have required. Because the legislature was not in session at that time. And they refused. They were under corporate pressure, from their corporate interests who played a big role in their political lives. So they refused. There were two Southern States still not heard from him a north carolina, which everyone knew was going to not ratify, and florida, the same thing. And so tennessee was the only one left. It was still a dangerous place to states this, probably final battle for womens suffrage, at the constitutional level. And the suffragists were not happy about having to states twostage this fight for the last state, in a southern state, because that makes it much more complicated for reasons we will discuss. So it was a very difficult realization, that tennessee was the one. But they had to deal with that. And for the antisuffragists come the antiratification nests, it also was something about last stand. So the governor of tennessee wanted to duck. He did not want it here, there. The Tennessee Legislature did not want to be the deciding factor. And so you had a lot of powers trying to make tennessee not have to be in this pivotal position. But it turned out it was. Host so if tennessee had failed to ratify, what would have happened to women suffrage . Guest that is an interesting speculation. Because, as i said, there were two northern states still in play. But the governors had totally refused, completely refused, to call their legislatures back. And they probably would not have done that before the 1920 election. What the suffragists sensed, and i think they were correct, is that the nation was swinging toward a much more conservative frame of mind. The progressive era was over, we had just emerged from a very unpopular war, the great war, world war i. And the nation was swinging away from that idea of america being the beacon of the free world. It was going into a more isolationist position. There were a lot of domestic problems, that were having to be decided. So this was a pivotal, pivotal election. And the suffragists felt if they could not get tennessee to ratify, that momentum would be lost. In fact the momentum in spring had been against them. There had been several rejections, including moderate delaware. Delaware rejected the 19th amendment. And so they were really nervous that if they cannot resolve this ratification in tennessee, in the summer of 1920, they were not, perhaps, going to see it ratified, in their lifetimes, or for the foreseeable future. Because what they feared was that, once the election was passed, the sense of pressure from the political establishment, would be over. And the nation was having second thoughts, there were several states that wanted to resend their prior ratification of the 19th amendment, and also it was being challenged in court. So they just felt, and i think they were very correct, that if they could not get it done out, it was not going to happen. And those of us who have lived through the vicissitudes of the equal rights amendment, which was meant as a successor amendment to the 19th, and was introduced into congress in 1923, know that an amendment can come very close to the finish line, as the e. R. A. It has, and yet not making it to the constitution. So i think their fears were wellfounded. Host by 1920, how many states allowed women to vote . Guest i believe about 12 or 15 states allowed for what was called full suffrage. You have to understand it gets complicated in our federal system. The constitution provides that the states are in charge of voting requirements for their citizens, and also for administration of elections. We know that because that is why there is such a hodgepodge of election law today, because the states are in charge. And they can make those decisions. You can get the right to vote by two paths. One is your state gives it to you by a change in the constitution, a change in the fundamental laws of voting in that state. As the other is through a constitutional amendment, which would supersede all the state requirements, and give the vote in one fell swoop, to all women, in every state. And so the suffragists had pursued a double track, shall we say, from the beginning. They worked in the states, on referenda, in which men, of course, the only people who could vote that Women Deserve the vote. Same had scores of referendums. Sometimes it took five or six times, and sometimes it failed and was never revived. At that time around 15 states, most in the west, but pivotally, illinois had given women the vote in 1917, and new york also in 1917, i may be wrong on the illinois one. There were a few outposts of midwestern and eastern states. The northeast corridor was very, very reluctant about womens suffrage. So they managed through enormous effort to get these 15 states to allow women to vote. This starts in the western states which are not very populated, wyoming, idaho, colorado, then goes up through california, oregon, washington and so you have, when new york allows suffrage in 1917, that is a big milestone when things begin to move again. It is most populous state. And then the politicians cannot ignore womens suffrage anymore. So you have states where it women can vote and then you have other states post were one, in post, in the last year or two previous, i gave women the right to vote in president ial election. They cannot vote for their governor, their senator, their congressman, they could vote for president. So now you have quite a few women who can vote in the president ial election even if they do not have full suffrage. Politicians have to pay a little more attention to the will of the women electric and so you see a different calculation in their minds in 1920. Host could you describe the standing of women, the legal standing of women in American Society at this time . Guest is best to go back into the 19th century when the movement begins. At that time, the idea of womens legal rights to some was an oxymoron. Because they have so few rights. A woman cannot own her own property, if she was married. Everything belonged to her husband. If her husband died, it often went to his brother. So his brother, her brotherinlaw, would now be in charge of everything she owned. A woman did not have custodial rights over her children. So if she left the marriage for any reason, she could not have custody of the children. They belonged to her husband. A woman could not keep her own wages, her own inheritance. Again, all those Property Rights revert to the husband. She cannot testify in a court of law. She could not bring civil suit in her own name. She could not serve on a jury. And of course you cannot vote. She could not enter most colleges or universities. Most occupations and professions were closed to her. So, this is what, this kind of outrage at this, is what stimulates the womens Rights Movement in the mid19 century. Coming to 1920, some of those property laws, which are state laws, have been improved. Not all, but some have been improved. So women can claim their own property, in certain states. Of course hmmm, the womens colleges have opened. So women have more access to higher education. And some state universities are open to women. A few professions are letting a few women in. As we know that will not change until the 1970s. So, you see a very small change is is important. But their haphazard. And they are also very hardfought. Women fight for decades to make these changes. That is one of the reasons that they want the vote. The movement begins as a womens right movement. And they are asking for a lot of changes. It begins to now its focus into suffrage for the right to vote as the turnkey. This is what women, if women have representation in the places where policy and laws are being made, then maybe they can change those laws, through the legal system. So that is why suffrage becomes the leading edge of this womens Rights Movement. And then, following, alice paul says ok, we have the vote. Now we want to make sure we are leveling the Playing Field and all the other aspects of womens legal rights. And that is where the equal rights amendment comes in. Host the two sides were nicknamed the suffs and the antis. We have heard your arguments for the suffs. What were the arguments for the antis . Guest the one that comes to mind are men. There are reasons men might not women to vote. One is that they might have to share power. If women can vote there half the electorate and mens power is diluted. That is a political argument. Men also were very nervous about upsetting the political status quo. And whether men who are running for office were very nervous about having to appeal to women, women voters, they were sort of a different persona they might have to project. They are even worried about what they look like, which they never had to do when they were just appealing to men. But then you have the more interesting antisuffrage and then antiratification antis who were women. The fact that they were organized groups of womens opposed womens suffrage was kind of shocking to me when i first encountered it in my research. Because they were not as numerous in 1920. Back in the late 19th century you did not have to have an antiSuffrage Movement because most people were antisuffrage. The suffragists were a kind of minor fringe group of women. They were considered radicals. They were derided as unpatriotic, and deranged. So the idea of organizing to oppose suffrage does not really become a reality until around 1911 when the Suffrage Movement is gaining traction. So even women get worried about this. Why would women oppose their sisters getting the vote . A variety of reasons. One is that women antis are political, cultural, religious conservative women who leave this is going to upset gender roles and it is going to destroy the American Family if woman have a sense of equality and there is all kinds of antisuffrage propaganda materials that show women abandoning their family. To work for suffrage. It shows a woman going out of the family home door, leaving dad with screaming babies or having to do the wash on a washboard and of course this civilize is the fall of civilization. The idea that this is going to affect your private life, it is not just a political issue. Because this was not just a political issue. It really was a questioning of womens rights and womens role in society. This is what makes a more complicated issue. If you can say women are equal, they have an equal vote at an equal voice to men, well, then, what does that mean in the home . And the antisuffragists are very concerned that this means men are going to be emasculated and women are going to become more masculine and this was dangerous for the family, so they really see this as the downfall of civilization, and moral society. They also, for those who are religious conservatives, they use the bible. They say this is against gods plan. God is interpreted, god, as they interpreted, made adam over eve and to question it, they used biblical arguments against suffrage and you see that over and over again or they say god does not want this. And of course we hear echoes of that today and many debates about social change. So you have this constellation of men and women, who are very afraid and very opposed to the idea of women getting about. And there are some notable intellectuals, who are women, who are actually against suffrage. Host the mid19th century set a piece was the seneca falls conference, 1848. Three names that everyone knows from their history books susan b , anthony, Elizabeth Cady stanton and Frederick Douglass. You write in your book these three people, extraordinary 50 year partnership, change the course of our history. What is important for people to know about how the three of them worked together to advance rights in our society . Guest youre very right. I would say that they are very important names. I will make one small correction, which i did not know this until i had to delve into it. Frederick douglass is at the seneca falls meeting in 1848. Susan anthony is not. Susan anthony joins the movement a few years later. She is working as a temperance, she is a teacher, and she is working in temperance and abolition. Those three notables come together through the abolition movement. That is a really important thing for us to understand, that the womens Rights Movement, the womens Suffrage Movement, is a direct outgrowth of the abolition movement. And the women we think of as the foremothers, a stanton, Susan Anthony, lucretia mott, lucy stone, or actually abolition workers. Very active abolition workers, before they were suffrage workers. And the idea of all human beings having the divine spark. Having the right of freedom. And in a democracy, the rights of voice in their government, comes out of the central tenet of abolitionism. That no human should be property. That no human should be a slave. And women realize that in some ways, not to make a direct connection between womens oppression and slavery at that time, but women had very few rights. So they see the connection, there is something very wrong in our society. And they band together. So you have these women, for 20 years, working very hard, in the abolition movement. And also beginning to start speaking about womens rights. As the fact that Frederick Douglass was at seneca falls, and again i do not know this before i started my research, was just startling at extraordinary to me. Now it was no coincidence. He did not just happen to pass by. He lives 50 miles away in rochester. He is publishing the northstar. Elizabeth cady stanton invited him to come. She invited him. She presented her declaration of rights, a lament of all the reasons women are oppressed and it is a direct echo of the declaration of independence. She uses jeffersons language. Then she has resolutions to solve these problems. One of them, the ninth resolution, is the idea of the vote. And that is considered so radical and so unattainable, that even her fellow reformers at the seneca falls meeting, say, please do not put that on the table. It is too radical and it will make us seem ridiculous. They ask her to take it off the agenda and she refuses. And it is Frederick Douglass who stands up and says, you must, you must demand this. You must demand the vote. It is not going to be given to you. Just as it is not going to be given to me as a black man. Unless we are willing to fight for it. It is Frederick Douglas who convinces the other very reluctant participants at seneca falls, to sign onto this resolution number nine and approve it. And i think we would possibly never have heard of seneca falls, if it was not for Frederick Douglass convincing the others, to pass it. And he calls himself a womans right man for the rest of his life. And he truly, truly as. He is, in my mind, the hero, one of the great heroes of the story. Because he believes that universal suffrage. So he will be fighting for universal suffrage for all adult citizens. What will happen is there will be a great disappointment after the civil war and the reconstruction period, and the reconstruction amendments, the 14th and 15th amendments. And basically congress says, i know you are all expecting to get about. But, the nation cannot handle two big reforms that once. So it is either going to be, black man get the vote or women get the vote. And black men need it more elementally, because they are horrible violence and lynchings going on. They need a vote to protect themselves. Frederick douglass has to tell them, the womens hour has not come. It will come eventually but you will have to wait. And this produces a schism, that takes quite a while to heal. And so race is part of the story. From the very beginning. From the abolitionists to the split in the reconstruction. When the women are betrayed. They really are betrayed. So they get very angry. Anthony and stanton say vile racist things. The friendship with douglas is repaired, between them, the personal one. And he still attends Womens Rights Conventions, for the rest of his life. In fact, he dies in 1895, just a few hours after attending a Womens Rights Convention in washington. And so the idea that he truly, truly believes in womens rights, is borne out and it is actually a beautiful story. And he maintains that, even when he is betrayed himself, by the suffragists. Host so it seems as though phase two