all so much for joining us. we'll see you tomorrow live from atlanta, seen a news node, abby phillip starts right now right here in new york. >> are we watching an omen of what november may brain? that's tonight on newsnight cnn's breaking news good evening. >> i'm abby phillip in new york moments ago, a major cnn projection in the race, the entire political world's attention has been fixated on tonight. jamaal bowman is now officially out of a job. the squad member losing two tonight to george latimer. it is an important marker and it shows the potential political power and parallel of the war in gaza. it also shows the candidates aren't taking a dramatic risk perhaps when they alienate jewish voters. bowman is younger, more high-profile. he's a key fixture was thought to be the ryzen wing of the democratic party alongside fellow new yorker alexandria ocasio-cortez, rachida to leave. and also ilhan omar but he is now on the losing end of the most expensive house primary in american history. cnn senior data reporter harry and ten is over at the magic wallet has the latest results for us. so harry, what happened there in new york 16? >> yeah, i've been looked. you had the march computer scream. i got my nice little yellow truck markup here, a double-digit win for george latimer. you very rarely see incumbents losing by this wide of a margin, double digits, you know, what happened? you asked abbe, well, a few things happen. number for one, i would say jamaal bowman didn't exactly know his district. what do i mean when i say that? well, let's break it down by county. these particular results, right? that the 16th district is partially the bronx. it's also partially westchester. let's go to the bronx part of the district. what do you say? oh, that's a little bit further here we go. >> we'll talk about the bronze what about western? so if you look at westchester, what you see is a tremendous margin four jbeil, george latimer, if you look at the bronx portion of the district, what do you see? you see the exact opposite? you see a very large margin for george latimer, the issue of course, is that the westchester part of the district makes up a considerable fleet larger portion of the vote more than that, there's this whole question, okay. this is a primary, right? you're normally we deal with low turnout. well, look back to where we were in 2020 to look at the turnout, the total votes that were cast in new york 16th district. what did we say? we saw a little less than 40,000 folks cast about look how many folks can that's the ballot this time around, only so far we're looking at about 55,000 votes already cast were still a considerable portion of the vote still to go in new york's 16 congressional district. you also mentioned israel earlier on abyei. here's the thing that i will know, george latimer lead this race wire-to-wire even before for any of that aipac money hit the air george latimer was a ahead in the internal polling by double digits. and as we look at this race right now, what do we see? we say it definitely paid off for george latimer, a longtime local paul, served and rye as early as 1987, he is the winner tonight, jamaal bowman is out of a job in large part because a mile opinion, he didn't know his voters well enough abbe a major moment for the house of representatives and for jamaal bowman. harry, thank you very much. we'll check in with you later a lot to digest tonight with our panel and george latimer will join me live and just a few moments. but first here on set with a republican strategist, joe opinion, former white house geoff deputy press secretary for the obama administration, bill burton, scene and political commentator s. e. cupp and cnn, senior political commentator david axelrod. david this is an earthquake. the squad human with a bang in the 2020 20 election now, what of its members is out of a job over an issue that has animated the progressive left but alienated them from the center left as well. >> yeah, look, i think that there's no denying that this was at the center of the race. but jamaal bowman had other problems as well well, that we shouldn't ignore maybe best characterized are symbolized by his decision to pull a fire alarm in the middle of a vote, that start stop a vote in congress for which he was cited. and so he had issues. this this is a in the main hey, in a more center-left district, and he, you know, he got elected in the, in the george floyd year but i think this is part we should just a couple of, a couple of weeks ago, there were primaries in oregon and in portland where you saw two progressive candidates a loose to center left candidates. and so the question isn't just about israel, which is obviously a divisive issue within the democratic party between the progressive contingent and other democrats, but also whether there is a general moving more to the center among democratic primary ray voter know what do you think about that? >> well, i think i think that bowman ran a campaign that was true to who he is as a progressive he brought out aoc and bernie sanders. he had some high-profile interviews included on the breakfast club with charlemagne the god. but to david's point, that's just not where this district was. this district is a center-left and i think that if you spend $20 against someone who's politics don't totally match up with where the district is. you just don't have a shot ultimately, this will also be seen through the prism of the gaza war and there are concerns out there on the left that this is an issue that could divide democrats. >> well, it is, it is divided democrats. i was speaking to a number of voters in michigan who have said we are staying home were done, were gone. we are not coming back home for biden, which is kind of wild to think about because the alternatives trump and rfk jr. or even more pro-israel. so these are people who are that offended and disaffected that they want to stay home on the other hand, you've got people like bowman really sort of cartoonishly exaggerating when they go out on the stump, p, trafficked and some conspiracy theories that were really ugly. he later apologized for them there was a story that he contacted some jews that he knew asking for photographs to prove that he had friends and the jewish community. a lot of missteps. and what we're seeing is that jewish voters in westchester voted early real early. i mean, something like 15% had already clocked in their votes, so they were really animated did by that. but as david said, he had other problems. the ads that were running against jamaal bowman criticized him from the center left for going after biden and not being with biden enough, he had some issues. >> i want to play one of those ads or you just mentioned, this is just an example of all the money that poured into this race jamaal bowman keeps attacking president biden and it's hurting new york. bowman called president biden a liar he voted good against the president's infrastructure act, against rebuilding roads and bridges in new york to la bowman has his own agenda and he's hurting you york. george latimer, we'll take on maga extreme and who worked with president biden to keep delivering progressive results not exactly attacking him from the right there i mean, for republicans, what message would you take away from what happened here tonight? >> oh, look, i don't really believe this is about republicans. >> i think that there is a gut check moment happening for democrats that one are they going to be tolerant of unabashedly anti-semitism within their ranks. i think that's a real issue. you cannot deny that. you see the money that was spent over $25 million. it was an avalanche of cash that drove that turnout, but i think even to harry's point, this race was in many ways over before it started. i grew up in the 16th for it a great deal of my life in yonkers, new york, for the longest time we had elliott angle, most famous for hanging out by the railing, waiting for the president to come give the state of the union but at the end of the day, i disagree with his politics, but he's certainly comport it himself in a way that the district could be proud. and so when you have somebody who spends their entire life as an educator with then goes to dc, starts pulling fire alarms and potential. he has no idea that the fire alarm is actually a fire alarm when he is running around cursing and not hidden the profane manner, i think he was so eager to be part of the squad that he doth protest too much. he was the last one in and he is now the last one out and i think for me the question becomes does he gracefully bow out as you continue to go down this rabbit hole? because he does have the working family party line. originally, he did give the working family response to biden in 2021. i think democrats gave them their response. he's going to be looking for new jobs. >> every one of the things on the eye, like i said, i think there was much more at play than this issue. but on the issue of israel and gaza, he was one of those who was pre reluctant to criticize hamas and accept the reports of what hamas had done the atrocities of october 7. i think that was a bridge too far for a lot of i think it's possible a whole two thoughts. i hold them i was absolutely he was stated by what happened on october 7 and i weep for the children of gaza. i think it's possible to do those two things. he wasn't doing those two things. >> do you think that the race was being made to be about aipac money? >> yes the impact of money in politics, brace adders and aoc basis basically said, big money is buying this race. >> i mean, is that a fair criticism? >> look, i think there's no doubt that big money played a role that apex money played a role, but they also had something to work with, as you saw, that ad was not about israel, that ad was about jamaal bowman and he did not fit that district. so yes. on the one hand, there's there and you see it in other districts, you see in a cori bush race and in missouri, you see some of this, but but at the end of the day, if someone has a solid base and is in tune with their district, all the money in the world is hard to beat an combat. he was sitting, he was a sitting duck in some ways, not because of this issue, but because of many issues. >> one of which why is hakeem jeffries has talked about this sort of thorn in his side of the far left extremes acute jeffries wants to take back the house he wants candidates more like tom suozzi in new york. unless like jamaal bowman running around kind of embarrassing the party. so there were those internal party factors as well, i think to that point, you'd obviously georgia is going to be joining us. look, i don't agree with his politics, but i think jamaal bowman never saw a two term city and county executive coming at him from the right buddy, who quite literally has never lost an election so you see somebody who has gone from ride gone to the state senate, gone to become county executive, is a known quantity in westchester, in particular, in that district. i think that he spent so much time hanging out with aoc. he believed that that district reflected his own and i think the harry's point, he found out the hard way did not all right. >> everyone standby 4. the winner at george latimer as we've been discussing, he's going to join me live in just moments plus, we're going to talk about the big debate that's just 47 hours away. stay with us. this isn't as high thursday night live from midland. the most anticipated moment of this election biden rod run america sure. that we are a nation of possibilities. >> trump. we had the best economy, we had the best border, we had the best of everyday, but now we got to do it all over again. >> we're going to do it even there are two very different visions for america. one unprecedented night moderated by jake tapper and dana bash, the cnn presidential debate thursday night at nine live get cnn and streaming on one second. grandma disguised going to buy my car. >> okay. do you need carbonic entering plate number no accidents, right? 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bill? >> why? i don't think you have a lot of squad members in districts like this one, right? i think that this is a very particular set of circumstances where the politics denis, one match up with where the voters were. so i think that the squad is going to continue to be the progressive voice of the democratic party and continue to push on the edges of where politics are and? i think that there's a place for that and that's fine. it's just i probably not in districts like this. >> what about apac? i mean, are you comfortable joe, with the way that they are playing? i mean, it's not just this race. i mean, they have gone after progressive democrats in a bunch of different races. sometimes have lost but are you comfortable with the way that they are wielding their power in electoral politics will look, i mean, first of all, they're not the only group that spends outrageous amounts of some money on politics. so i think the single them out in that regard is unfair. i think in many ways maybe i'm the rear voice, but they've made some mistakes and those mistakes have reaped the jamaal moments of the world. if you look at what happened in october 7th, going all the way back many years, aipac has endorsed in many incumbents to chuck schumer the world that gerson jewelry brands of the world, people who have spent a great deal of their time now undermining benjamin netanyahu, anytime when israel needs our support the most. and so i think this kind of reflexes status quo support has led to this this place where they have to spend so much money now, it's interesting that you brought that up because i do think this speaks to where we are politically used to be that aipac was sort of somewhere in the center of the two parties. the accusation today is that now they have moved actually to the right and they don't want to acknowledge that that's what's happened is part of it is that they hey, their signals from the government of israel and whoever the government is at that moment, net yahoo has been a dominant force and he's created these alliances with a republican party here it's interesting, you know, he, he gotten sideways with donald trump because he acknowledged biden's election and trump was very angry at him and has said so publicly. and now it feels like he's working hard to sort of make a men's and hedges bets on this next election. but i just disagree with you, joe on the idea that that somehow if you're an american politician or an american presence isn't an end you disagree with benton benjamin netanyahu, that somehow that makes you ask israel are worthy of opposition. there are plenty of people in israel who oppose what netanyahu doing and have questions about how he's conducted this one. what i am saying specifically is not there's someone can cannot disagree with tactics of israel or not saying that somebody cannot as he criticized the prime minister of israel, what i i'm saying is that there has been a certain level of consternation at a point in time when america needs to be supporting israel in their efforts to root out hamas, root and stem. and so i think again to your point, you can hold two positions at the same time? yes. we can say that there is a place for criticism, but we have gone past criticism. we have gone to a point where i truly believe that if you actually look at the statements that have been made by key stakeholders within democratic party that have previously been supported by aipac. they have done things that have made it more difficult for us to get those hostages back, have made it more difficult for israel to press their cause and that is just my position somewhat argue that the difficulty in getting the house to use back is netanyahu himself, who has repeatedly turned down various proposals. so i don't know that it's fair to say that all i know is this. i don't know where israel would be without the kind of support that america has provided. i, i just i'm old enough to remember when iranian drones were coming over israel a few months ago, and they were shot down mostly by american. all right, guys, weapons everyone. >> hi for me, george latimer is joining me now. sir. congratulations and thank you for joining us tonight. >> thank you, abby. sonata, to be with you tonight. >> so this is as we've been saying, the most house expensive house primary in the history of this country, 25 million poured into this new york district more than 14 million from apac. what do you say to some of your constituents who are concerned about that kind of money pouring into politics in this way? >> well, the first thing i can say abby's i've been in public office for 35 years. i've held a variety of positions. >> i have never once changed to position based on a campaign donation can ever nobody's ever accused me of that. >> when i know is that a winning this race tonight, i didn't win it on the national debate. i wanted because i went door to door. or i could walk this district and i talked to people about the issues they wanted to talk about which included what's happening in the middle east. but really prioritize domestic issues, things of affordable ability, housing, restoration of the salt tax deduction. so i think that the constituents that i talked to are the ones that i'm most interested in their point of view. and that's the one that i'm going to try to focus on. i understand the natural debate, but i think in this district, the national debate was secondary to the local discussion of who could best present this district on domestic issues. >> i do want to play though, something that you said that got a lot of controversy. let me just play this clip 4, our audience here. >> we get as much money as you get from outside the district. you are your constituency is dearborn, michigan. your constituency a san francisco, california. it's not harrison, it's not tuckahoe. it's not scars so they're in that clip, you're critiquing jamaal bowman for getting money from outside of the district from dearborn, michigan that was viewed as by bowman and islamophobia dog whistle could you just address that? >> and also address how you can make that critique? also receiving money from outside of the district as well? >> well, let's begin with the fact that fundraising that we had an our campaign was more than half from within the decimal so the incumbent raised 10% from within the decimal. so there's no comparison about who drew resources, but within the district i do far more resources from the people who vote in the 16th tests that he did now, what i said was referring to where he had raised money from. it's not a dogwhistle of anything. he had a major fundraiser in california. he raised more money in california in the last report that he made from new york. so it wasn't a dog whistle about california. and as far as dearborn, michigan is concerned representative tlaib and the incumbent formed a joint fundraising committee on february 14th she draws her money from her district and she's based in dearborn, michigan. it's a geographic reference, not a demographic reference. now, i understand that. >> in order to try to advance his cabinet, the incumbent tried to turn it into something that it wasn't. >> but the bottom line is, it is clear that he raised money more. in proportion outside the district from a nationwide network of donors that included people from those locations and others. that's a fact so congressmen fall man is now the first member of the squad to lose their seats since that group started six years ago what does your victory tonight say about the power of the progressive left and the future for the progressive left when it comes to new york politics well, let's be clear. >> i'm a progressive. >> i have done a number of things in my home county. >> we passed a clinic access mall. we've done a wide range of things to help the lgbtq community. we've had a black maternal health care initiative. we've lowered the cost of a childcare for people. we've electric to find a bug. all those are progressive goals. this race has been misrepresented by those who want to see it as progressive versus something else. i guess he wanted to frame me as a maga conservative, which is absurd. what it, what it does show is that when you lose touch with your district, when you're not on the ground enough. and when you are more concerned about sure national profile that you're on, the major media outlets which are not in the neighborhoods that you need to be in. all the neighborhood you need to be in, then you lose the and you lose supporting your district. i won because i worked hard and i have a record of delivering for the people who live in this area, in this community. >> i may not be at national figure in the years to come. >> i just want to be a good representative of my district and i think that's what they voted for tomorrow george latimer, fresh off of a huge, huge upset victory tonight in new york. >> thank you very much for joining us from your campaign headquarters tonight. thank you thank you, abby and up next, it's not going to be a show like the last time that's the quote tonight, reportedly from a trump adviser, just 48 hours to go until that debate plus former obama official jay carney will join me. his advice for president biden this is nice. >> nine the most anterior subpoenaed moment of this election. >> and the stakes couldn't be higher. the president and the former president's one stage moderated by jake tapper and dana bash, who cnn president central debate thursday night at nine, live on cnn and streaming un-backed itch, itch scratch must not stop the if sanity with cortisone ten for bug bites, poison ivy, and other edges, cortisone ten is number one, doctor recommended. it works fast and last for hours. cortisone ten when did i call the filter? 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>> get growing at neutrophil.com i more liebermann at the pentagon and this cnn 47 hours from this very moment, president biden and donald trump will be deep in their debate in the most important moment of this election so far and tonight, we're getting some new details from each camp about what their strategy is going to be the biden team is looking to paint trump as quote, a loser who's too dangerous and reckless to be president. >> a second time. meanwhile, mark caputova from the bulwark reports that trump is promising his allies that this debate won't be like the last time when, of course he threw a chaos grenade into the matchup one adviser says, quote, he's waited for years for this. it's not going to be a show we'll see about that. as far as logistics, we can tell you tonight that biden has seen the view from the podium through this walkthrough video where he'll be standing now eight feet from donald trump. my panel is back with us. they will be so much closer than the last time around when arguably trump may or may not have had covid, but trump vowing, this won't be a show you believe him. >> i don't i don't think he can help himself. and i think two factors here. there's no audience and that feeds him. and when he doesn't get an applause or a laugh or a yay, or a usa line. >> i think that's going to make him very frustrated and he's going to keep going and going and going into phil, he makes himself like soothes himself to feel better about what he's saying. >> then the other thing is, i think cutting the mics is going to frustrate him and he's still going to want to get under joe biden's skin. so i don't know that he's gonna be able to restrain himself the way he is. saying he will i think he's gonna get very personal with joe biden. >> i think he's going to give her ugly and nasty with joe biden. i think it's going to be esha joe. i do want to know what you think because you are the republicans. both of you are republicans, but you're, you're the one who's probably the most likely to give the charitable interpretation of what we'll do stay night i mean, do you think that donald trump can actually control himself on that debate stage when he does not have the feedback of a crowd. >> but i think if you're comparing president trump, even on the stump, these days to where he was four years ago, it in some way has been night de i think he has been more restrained, maybe not at the rallies, but i think as you've see, look, i think there is the rally speech that you get from president trump, but i also think that even if you see the press conferences that he was giving outside of those courtrooms, i think that that was a more restrained version will hold on. >> hold on where he was literally calling for violence against court clerks bearnaise and family members. are you serious? that's restraints. i as i said, it was a more restrained version of do tell people just like i would i would make the argument that is unfair characterization, but i will say this has relates specifically to the debate that the cutting of the mics in my humble opinion, helps president trump. i think that if you asked every republican not there, what do they want to see? they want to see joe biden attempting to speak for two hours. and i think anytime joe biden has to answer questions, that is to the benefit of president trump, it should be benefit of every single republican up and down the ballot. and so i think whether that works or not, whether he can restrain himself or not remains to be seen. but this election is going to be about whether joe biden is still up to the job and whether he can actually find anything in his record, you hang your hat on and i think right now, everything that we hearing from democrats wanted him to go on the offensive, make it about the actual comportment of president trump speaks to the fact that the bread and butter issues affecting many americans from the economy to the border have not asieh been working i suspect that he's not just going to confine themselves to the comportment of president trump, but the there's no doubt that they both have tests that go beyond issues for biden. >> it's dust so you have this sort of energy and stamina and kenny bring it for 90 minutes and prove that he can control events because that's what is in question for trump, it's a question whether you can control himself and that is a big question too. i do think i agree that in some ways this is optimal for him because there are some guardrails there, but he's not one who often observes guardrails. and if he if biden performs well in the first half of the debate or if trump mike tyson said everybody has a plan until they get punched in the face. so when he gets punched in the face as he will, and when he gets a question from the moderators that he may not like the question is, how does he come if he gets it's called the loser over and over again. i'm not going well, so you heard what the democrat democratic source was saying? that they're characterizing trump as a loser. nancy pelosi was on with anderson cooper last night. she called him a loser. it's kinda sounds like this is going to be the line of poking the bear to try to get trump rally. >> i think that's right. >> i mean, in my experience in politics, it's rare to win i think very often you can lose a debate. >> and that's a much easier path. but in terms of winning, i think that what the biden campaign is trying to do is like start this in a conversation where they're getting under president trump's skin and trying to rattle the bear. >> but at the end of the day, i think that everything we're talking about right now is the theater of it, right? >> like there is a debate where people want to hear about, well, what's the future look like under the next presidential term what does this conversation mean in their lives, right? and i think that the media and the pundits self included, will spend a lot of time talking about the theater of it. but at the end of the day, people want to know what's in it for their future. >> and i think this is one of the things hillary clinton wrote an op-ed. she, she talked about actually exactly this, basically saying it's the theater, but also focus on some of the things that he actually might say around abortion, around healthcare, around all kinds of other issues. >> i think we spent a lot of time talking about what's going to go wrong for these guys, but they do have some advantages joe biden can talk about reproductive rights i think he can give really important voice to that and the threats to democracy, those are absolutely in his wheelhouse. >> and those work and donald trump needs to just stick to the economy, crime and immigration period. end of story don't go all. trials i'm going immigrations and prevent crime and i mean, there are some foul odors that they feel is wrong. i can append to this, but esi i think i think the biden campaign, frankly, in the last few days has flashed a message that is the absolute right message, which is he's focused on people and their problems. trump is focused on himself and i think it has to include the economy. do you want more tax cuts for billionaires or you want tax cuts for families, for childcare. do you want to expand the affordable care act and more protections for people in the health care system, or do you want to eliminate? do there are a series of things that biden can do that signify i'm on your side. i'm working on your problems. he's working on his i think coming to that point specifically, let me quickly you're looking at again, a tale of two americas, right? there's a story that donald trump wants to tell. there's a store, the joe biden wants to tell. i think ultimately a two-year point if president trump is speaking about the issues, the sliver of voters that are still persuadable at this point between two men who are both been president is very small, and those types of voters, i think are looking for answers on the border answers on the economy, and answers on whether or not their children are going to end up having to be shipped overseas for one of the wars that are expanding at rapid pace one, thank you very, very much. >> hey conversations this hour up next for us. as i mentioned, hillary clinton gives advice to president biden for the debate, including whether or not to even bother fact-checking trump, jay carney, join that's me. live plus trump can now publicly attack witnesses who testified at his new york criminal trial. but that might mean for his sentencing and for future that's the final episode of violent earth. >> there are densely myelin and unleash massive hurricane impacts are worsening, is it too late to undo decades of climate change? 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>> miracles of evolution, where there is one, others aren't far behind scavenging for food. the cockroach will, now that's horrifying favorite. ortho home defense max, enduring sec barrier. one application kills and prevents bugs were 365 days at my house you down nature's wild your home doesn't have to be debate in america thursday at 7:00 p.m. tonight, the only person to have debated both president biden and donald trump, who also lost both races is telling americans what to keep in mind while they're watching thursday's big event, hillary clinton says that it's a waste of time to try to refute or even fact check at trump's arguments like a normal debate using words like nonsense, ranting, raving, and bladder to describe trump's tactics. >> joining me now is jay carney he served as president obama's white house press secretary. he's now with airbnb and j. we were just discussing. you also know joe biden really well. you used to work for him, too. i was first two years of the obama administration. i was vice president biden's communications director. >> so when you hear hillary clinton's advice i mean, she really does know what she's talking about and she faced with trump literally stalking her on that stage. and what do you make of it? >> i think she's right. i think the urge when you're in a debate and your opponent says something that is just factually untrue. the urge is to say no, correct. the correct correct. the record here are the facts and it's it's just it's setting yourself up for frustration and you're giving up opportunities to make the points you want to make because you're on your sort of suddenly debating on your opponents terms. and i think president biden needs to resist that temptation. he should say, i think sort of colloquial things like that is just baloney. that's malarkey. we all know that's not true and then go to his point something tells me will hear a lot of a lot of malarkey, a lot of monarchy. but you also said back in 2020 that you thought that was just not a wise strategy to try to one up trump in terms of insults are getting on his level, essentially in terms of how someone tries to respond to him, do you think that's still true? >> we were just talking about this term, loser that keeps coming up among democrats. you think they'll try to needle him that way. >> i think i think it is true that you have to you have to emerge if you're donald trump's opponent, you want to emerge as the candidate who the option who seems more serious, more plausible safer, more reliable as president, as a choice. >> but i think you do need to be aggressive and i think especially actually president biden needs to show that he's he's still got fight in them. he's going to he's he's not going to take a punch and not punch back franklin's made the observation debates are more about vibes than anything else. that's probably more true now yeah. >> any other time when you have two people who need to convey a certain persona? i mean, do you think that that is the kind of coaching that president biden is getting up at camp david right now, how to present himself to the american public, like you said, to show that he has vigor. >> i think yes, to that he has vigor and that he did he still wants to fight for the american people. he's been doing this for a long time. i'm a senator as vice president, as president, and he needs to show that he has the desire, the passion to keep fighting for the american people and that he's, he's a better choice. obviously, the reason why it's so important that this debate is happening now, this early in the cycle is i think a lot of americans, because they've seen this movie before, have been like for not really wanting to know that it's happening and resisting having to engage. and i think this makes clear to everyone who imagines a world where there might be different candidates that there aren't. these are your choices and they're going to have to focus on it. >> i want to play a little bit of what your other former boss, former president obama, had to say a couple of months ago it's not just the negative case against the presumptive nominee. on the other side, it's the positive case for somebody who's done an outstanding job in the presence you've got record-breaking job growth. you've got an unemployment rate that is as low as it has been for african americans by the way, the law is on record ever. we also have a positive story to tell about the future and that is something that joe biden has worked on diligently, each and every day on behalf of working americans that guy's good like i got to say, that is what you would expect to hear right from a democrat right now. >> however, cnn's reporting this week is that biden is being advised not to harp on what he believes are his accomplishments don't brag, don't you know, don't rabbit in the american public's face. what they might not be feeling yes, i think i think they're coaching him in that direction so that he doesn't overdo the defensive his record because, you know, just like these debates are often about vibes how viewers are taking them in, is about how they're also feeling. >> so if, if any candidate, an incumbent is arguing something strongly that doesn't resonate with an american like the economy's great, but it's not great for me personally that, that creates risks. so i think, i think counter punching on the facts, like when when, when trump talks about the greatest economy ever, all that kind of stuff, it's like no, i've created more jobs. the economy is growing at a faster pace unemployment rate is historically low and inflation is coming down. but here's what i'm gonna do for you in the future, just that fast and that's gonna be the challenge. >> so in 2012 as i'm sure you well, remember president obama's first debate with mitt romney was a disaster. and he's, and he's generally pretty good at this kind of thing. i mean, there are risks here for an incumbent present sitting president, especially i think that they will use i'm sure i know they're using that at example because obviously joe biden was there. he had his own debated vice president. he knows and remembers the consequences of the fact that president obama went in thinking he could have a reasoned, serious discussion with mitt romney, and that people would understand that he was the better. it just his he wasn't in his life please. strong game mode. and i think that a second chance you had a second. >> well, that's joe biden. get really a second. >> well, we don't know whether they're you mean in terms of from the perspective of voter who's looking at this, i think the stakes are enormously high and i think that's why it's important for the folks who are prepping president biden to show him that remind him that of what happened to president obama. and he's not alone, like incumbent presidents prior to obama. i've had bad first debates. and if there's only one debate, you can't risk that. >> yeah first impressions, they really matter. >> jay carney. thank you very much for being here. thank you. >> and donald trump can now attack the witnesses and the jurors who convicted him in new york. but as he awaits sentencing, could that at ultimately impact the judges? decision down in in new york, we'll discuss that coming up thursday night. >> my from midland. the most anticipated moment of this election, biden your honor, on america isn't future because that's where we are a nation of possibility trump. >> we had the best economy, we had the best border, we had the best of everything, and now we get to do it all over again. we're gonna do it even better. two very different visions for america. >> one precedented night, moderated by jake tapper and dana bash, the cnn presidential debate thursday night at live on cnn and streaming on max with so many choices booking.com, there are so many tina phase i could be so i hired body doubles to help me out. >> splurging. tina loves a hotel near road de you drive coupled, tina tina booked a farm state ride. this horse glenn close, was melians are possibilities you, can book whoever you want to be. that's my line booking.com, booking dot yeah my grandfather's run meyer the header for over 75 years now he's got so many life experiences that you can share. >> finding the exact date on ancestry at that our family does. this was founded was special to share with my grandfather when get that moment every day you made to find inner peace we to track flight prices to paradise compared with other choose one, verb ecto tube protects from fleas and ticks for 12 weeks nearly three times longer. use with caution and dogs with the history of seizures or neurological disorders, protection that last longer. >> bravo recto bravo okay. >> we got orders coming in, starting a business. is never easy, but star near eight months pregnant, that's a different story. i couldn't slow down. we were starting a business from the ground up people were showing up left and right. and so did our business needs the chase e car and made it easy when you go for something big like this, your kids need it. and they believe they can do the same earn a limit 1.5% cash back on herge with the chase ink business unlimited card from chase for business, make more of what's yours every time i need are your phone? 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yeah. i mean, you think that if he starts attack, i mean, what what is he does? what he's allowed to do, which is attack the witnesses i mean, would that impacted or would it only be if he then goes the step further if we go to step berlin violates the gag goat, or there could be penalty, but we can't we can't sit here and say if trump doesn't start to bash the people, that's involved in this two witnesses even the jurors, that that won't come into the courtroom during his sentencing, and it won't be in the mind of the judge and the judge may factor that in because clearly is trump showing remorse is not trump showing that he understands that he did something wrong and that could impact the sentencing here. >> he could get a harsher sentence if he speaks in certain ways trump's never going to show remorse certainly, between now and the time of the sentence saying because he's going to appeal the case, he says he's innocent. >> he's going so here's appellate route. it'd be countering remorse. i'll say maybe i'll change remorse for versus yeah, maybe that's something he's always going to want to show because that's going to be important for how the judge views them. but warmer, sean was a prosecutor for so long has been a judge for so long. you've seen so much going through his courtroom. i think he's going to first of all, i think he already knows what he's gonna do on a sentence but i think he's going to really not be affected by anything donald trump says things about judge marsha is going to ultimately do here i hope you say i think he's going to send them to jail at least for a short period because a point has to be made that you can't continue this behavior. >> we have to remember this is a defendant who is doing the same thing. he's running for an election when he was convicted of a crime that was involved him running in an election. so i think a point has to be made if it doesn't, we run the risk of donald trump doing the same thing yeah. that's good point, but really, i don't think he sends them to jail first of all, the level of the crime. no prior convictions. if you just took him as a defendant, he wouldn't see any jail time is probationary sentence if you really shouldn't be sentenced any higher just because of who he is, you know, justice. she's blind and he is supposed to be treated like everybody else. if v is, there's no jail time. >> do what you think the trucks trump's conduct. now that this gag order is partially lifted, will have on the judge cannon down in florida who's also so weighing whether or not he should be under a gag order, how she looking at what happens in new york. >> i think this makes it less likely she's going to issue a gag order because judge marsha is really plank tight by the rules in very limited in what the gag order was. it was only about the families the jurors, things like that. and he's lifting it appropriately as they go alone. so i think judge kane is going to look at this and say, well, no, you're supposed to have freedom of speech and is supposed to be very restricted. they haven't shown any specific threats in florida. so i don't think she's going to issue a gag order, and i think it's gonna be assisted by what's happened here in new york. >> yeah, i think dante is ready if you listen to the arguments or comments yesterday in court i think the bigger thing on her plate right now are those motions express. i'm in the fourth, fifth, and sixth amendment constitutional arguments that they made today or have some meet and have some legs so she's got to have your hands full those decisions coming up. gag order is kinda the menu is yeah. but but at the same time, i mean, they're asking for something and that's not it's different from in new york, they're asking to gag him from attacking the fbi who was not part of the process. the process, but they're not witnesses. they're not jurors, are not family members, which is what the gag go have covered in new york. >> i think it's fair to say. i mean, look, i was sitting in the hearing with judge merchan he he he tries it's to walk that line very carefully. he he is not a frivolous judge