good evening, i'm abby philip in new york. and tonight, new and heart-stopping video from the front lines of the israel-hamas war. cnn nick robertson and his crew got an up close view of the ash, the bullets, the trail of absolute destruction. the rare inside look at how the idf is fighting comes at a consequential moment in this war as the american president says the strip's main hospital must be protected. now, israel says the very same facility houses a hamas command complex blow it. and cnn report the story you are about to see under israeli defense force escort at all times, but cnn did not submit it script or it's footage of the idf. and cnn retained editorial control over the final report that you will see now. [sound of artillery] >> driving into gaza with the israeli forces. it's a war zone. the conditions of our access only show officers, no faces of soldiers, and don't show sensitive equipment. we are passing mile after mile of destruction, buildings blown, collapsed, nothing untouched, and the fury of israel's hunt for hamas. streets here are crushed -- sand. >> shops, everything that we see, no sign of any civilians here. the soldiers have been telling us that even inside the stores, they've been fighting things like rocket propelled grenades, ready to use against them as they were advancing through this area. >> a few miles in, we pull up at a command post. soldiers living in blown apartment buildings. >> every building i'm looking at here, wherever you turn, it's destroyed, it's shot up. it's hard to imagine how civilians injured the bombardment here. >> our next journey, much deeper into gaza. we arrive 100 meters from a battle with hamas. [sound of gunfire] tanks blasting targets in nearby buildings. the idea of top spokesperson waiting for us. >> we now have to get -- operation inside gaza, next to -- hospital. >> israel is facing massive international pressure over the destruction of homes, the shockingly high civilian death toll, and in the last few days, over its apparently heavy handed tactics at hospitals. >> but [inaudible] with the bulldozers to rebuild the tunnels that we suspect are underneath the hospitals. >> hagari has brought us here, to show us the connection he says exists between hamas and the -- children's hospital. >> we're now here in an area between a hospital, a school, and a terrorist house. >> a hamas commander, he says, live there. he points out the solar panels on the roof. >> this is a tunnel that was lighted like this. you can see here -- >> this is the -- >> you can see the latter going down. >> you can see ladder going down. this is a 20 meter tunnel. and look at here, look at the tunnel. be careful here. but look down here. you can see cables are going down to the tunnel, okay? >> so they're hardwired into the tunnel. >> what i want to show you, the solar panels of the terrorist house, can run electricity directly to the tunnel. we've entered a robot inside the tunnel, and the robot saw a massive door, a door that is in the direction of the hospital. >> we're in what is an active fire zone, and you can hear the small arms fire. the idf say they're still clearing this area out. it's getting -- in here. we're taking a bit a cover, because they still say we're taking fire. over here, we're able to smell what smells like rotting flesh, bodies perhaps buried underneath the rubble. no, don't go up high, don't expose yourself. >> as we move off to the hospital, 100 meters away, we're still taking fire. >> we're still conducting an operation, operation conducted by our special unit, the israeli navy seals are sieging the hospital. >> hagari later tells us he took a big risk to bringing us into such a combat zone. it is clear he wants the story told. >> with searching here to see the connection of the tunnel to the hospital, okay? don't fall here. >> i can see the connection. >> we're looking for the connection. >> as we finally reach the hospital, it is already getting dark. a huge hole has been blasted through the walls, into the basement. >> why is the hospital so damage? >> we're talking why is it damaged? >> exposed, yeah. >> we came to this hospital five days ago. there was still patients inside the hospital. we did not enter the hospital. >> he claims since then all patients were evacuated by hospital staff. >> we -- this evacuation to make a safe path for all the patients in the hospital. we do not know that the hospital is entirely clear. we do not know. we only entered through this area, which was suspected, because we are being fired. >> hagari leave us through a warrant of basement corridors to this room. >> this was the armory, okay? >> hamas armory? >> yeah. >> he shows us a few rusting guns and some explosives. these guns alone have potentially huge implications for gaza hospitals and israel's apparent push to take control of them. >> the international committee for the red cross say that hospitals are given special protection under international humanitarian law in a time of war. but if militants store weapons there or use them as a base of fire, then that protection falls away. >> in other rooms, he shows us a motorbike with a bullet hole in it that he suspects was used by hamas attackers october 7th, and nearby, possible evidence, hostages could've been held here. >> we are now in the basement, the same area, yards from the motor circuit. this year a chair. here, a woman's close, a woman's, something covering a woman. >> do you think a woman was tied up in this chair? >> this is an assumption, going to be checked by dna. >> more evidence, hagari says, points towards hamas and possible hostage presents below the hospital. >> and by bringing us here to this hospital and showing us the connection that you believe exist between the terrorists and the possible al hostages, what does this say about the other hospitals here in gaza? >> cynically, al-shifa hospital is known by fact, by intelligence, to be a terrorist hub. and it's also special also holding hostages. this is the busiest shelter for the -- hamas. >> for the hospital authorities say they have no knowledge of hamas or other groups inside hospitals. is that possible? >> i think that's not possible for a hospital to have any kind of instruction. we remove the terrace who are here. we knew the terrace were here, intelligence, and we also got some fire from this area. >> from this area? >> and we are right to fire. because what we found in the armory. >> there's so much damage all around here. >> there is damage around here, because hamas made it impossible for us to fight. they build all this infrastructure in tunnels and hospital. around areas populated. >> as we exit the hospital, it is already dark. >> we're just getting ready to leave right now. the fire fights still going on, still intense, bullets fired, explosions going on up the street there. >> this war and the controversies surrounding it far from resolved. nic robertson, cnn, gaza. >> some extraordinary footage there from on the ground in gaza. i know want to go to veteran foreign affairs correspondent reena ninan. reena, you've been to gaza. the one thing that's really striking us, we see that piece start, it's this video here. nic on this armored vehicle, driving in to complete and total desolation. have you ever seen gaza look like this? >> no, i mean, it is incredibly shocking. also because of the fact whenever i've gone into gaza, even the u.s. military was surprised at how precise they're able to be, the israeli military and targeting particular buildings. but you see entire towns completely wiped out in this video. >> yeah, i mean, it looks like there is just nothing there, no sign of civilians anywhere. one of the other factors that were in this piece where the tunnels. you've also been inside of those tunnels. we saw some images of a solar panel on a rooftop bringing wiring into tunnels that looked incredibly sophisticated in some ways. hamas seems to have really built up these systems for this very moment. >> you know, you're absolutely right, abby, you nailed that point. because when i went and, it was the start when hamas took over the gaza strip. and essentially what it was, it was like underground sandcastles. they got smarter. they got wiser. at one point, when the israelis allowed more aid in 2010, the egyptians didn't want these tunnels on their border, so they poured watered down the tunnels and all of that hard work was completely dissolved. hamas got smart. they brought in cement. they brought in proper engineering to construct what you are seeing. and what nic robertson's incredible reporting, and going down into these areas, you can see the weapons, you can see exactly as the israeli military has allowed foreign reporters to go in exactly how they've been using these areas. >> you also just recently got back from the region, from morocco, in the arab world. what is the mood right now? there's so much tension and anger, it almost feels combustible. >> that's a great way to put it. and i got a chance to speak to college students, people in government, people in the business community. and over and over, abby, the message that kept coming to me was what does it mean to eradicate hamas, abby? what does that mean? they keep saying that these young boys who have lost all their family members, who have experienced war, death, and destruction, isn't it only a matter of time before they apprise and come under some other name? it might not be hamas. what do you do about this next generation but? overwhelmingly, they are young and under 30. >> yeah, over 1 million people right now, on the run, no homes, nothing really around them, we saw what that desolation. reena ninan, always great to have you on the show, thank you. and up next for us, is the gop still the party of law in order? well, not according to some recent statements. plus, we have new video that shows one of donald trump's codefendants describing a scenario in which trump would not -- would never have left the white house. and with just four days until a government shutdown, hard-liners are speaking out against the new speaker's plan to keep it running. is congressman matt gaetz one of them? he will join me live. >> can the republican party still brand itself as the party of law and order? apparently it depends on which crime and who is accused. donald trump is facing four indictments, 91 felony counts, potentially three trials in the election here and head of the republican national committee just said this about her party's representative. >> if you end up having donald trump as your nominee and if he is convicted of a crime, do you believe that he would be the appropriate nominee for the republican party? >> whoever the voters choose as the appropriate nominee. >> even if he's a convicted criminal? >> i know this is newsworthy, but as party chair i'm going to vote for the voters choose. yes, if they choose donald trump, the voters are looking at this i think there is a two tiered system of justice. they don't believe a lot of the things that are coming out of this and make these decisions and using that reflect in the polls. >> the confidence there of being a okay with a convicted felon not only leading her party but also the country is interesting, especially since ronna mcdaniel has said this about the rule of law. >> from voters, republican voters, we want to safety. democrats are a pro crime, pro criminal, pro fentanyl party right now. the parties have shown that. we are common sense, they are chaos and pro criminal. >> president trump is talking about law and order and that really resonates with suburban women like myself. here's what the democrats are, they're inflation deniers, they are crime deniers, they are education deniers. this is literally. i do think was the overwhelming issues in the suburbs is law & order. >> that's quite the about-face, and it's just one example of how republicans seem to be incredibly selective on the definition of crime. for instance, if the former president or his family is accused of a crime, whether it is hoarding government secrets or committing fraud, the law is weaponized. if it involves hunter biden or democrat, the law is either fine or not strong enough. here is another example. if the crime happens to be about big cities and urban areas, republicans tend to call for the full weight of the law. but, especially if the cities are run by democrats. >> my administration will stop mob violence and will stop it cold. the mobs are devastating the life's work of good people and destroying their names. civilization must be cherished, defended, and protected. we cannot and must not allow a small group of criminals and vandals direct our cities and lay waste to our communities. >> but, if the mobs attacked the capital, the center of american democracy, those defendants are considered political prisoners. >> i call them the j sex hostages. not prisoners, i call them the hostages what has happened. and it is a shame. >> there is no insurrection and to call it an insurrection, in my opinion, is a bold faced lie. he didn't know that there is footage of january 6th, you would actually think it was a normal tourist visit. >> so, in liberal cities the rioters, vandals, anarchists. in the capital, under attack their hostages interests. now this all comes as abc news releases new video from the plea deals of two of trump's codefendants in that case in georgia. now, as you watch this video, keep in mind that the conversation that jen ellis is describing here. this happened after most of trump's election challenges had failed repeatedly in the courts. >> he said to me, in kind of unexcited tone, we don't care and we're not going to leave. i said, what do you mean? and he said, well, the boss, meaning president trump and everyone understood the boss, that is what we all called him, he said the boss is not going to leave money any circumstances. we are just going to stay in power. >> tonight, trump's attorney in this case says, in part, this is irrelevant because trump, indeed, left the white house. joining me now to discuss all of this is cnn political commentator margaret hoover and also sorry chris, of former assistant u.s. attorney for the southern district of new york. sarah, i'll start with you and jenna ellis. jenna alice, who tearfully had so much remorse about this, but in this tape you hear her say that one of trump's top aides in the white house at the time said he wasn't going to leave. how significant is that? >> listen, i think this is gonna be pretty powerful evidence in this trial and everybody is watching it. trump's team is looking at it thinking about how they are going to try to skirt around this evidence at the trial, but those words will be pretty evident, pretty powerful evidence when she comes to testify at the trial. >> is this about his mind, his intent here? >> yeah, i think that what we have seen so far in the video really does go to his intent and that is going to be the crux of, can they show his intent? can they connect them to the actions of all the others that were involved in the election interference? >> margaret, jen ellis, it is so amazing how much of an about face she personally has made. but so many people who have been a part of this house of cards, they are getting out of the game. and the house of cards is falling apart, yet, it seems that some people are just completely unmoved. >> when you are looking down the barrel of jail time, massive, really debilitating legal fees, which by the way are not paid for by donald trump, look, the gears of justice grind slowly but when they grind they are also being heard. the justice system is really doing its job and it is thinking it's proverbial tease into these witnesses who, initially, continue to align souls with donald trump but are crippling under the weight of the system as it is doing its job. >> by the way, the system is supposed to deter people and that includes, you don't want to get involved in crimes because they're painful. >> i just heard of the lawyers of whether deterrence actually work or not. >> i'm going to play this, sarah, from sydney powell. this is her proffer as well. >> what was president trump's reaction when, his advisers would say you lost? >> it was like, well, they would say that and then they would walk out and you would go, see, this is what a deal with all the time. >> i hear their trump heard, in her presence, that he lost. what do prosecutors do with that? >> i think that will undermine his argument that he had reasonable belief that he had not lost, these were fights that he could continue to fight in the courts and through appropriate channels. and i think that they're going to undercut that argument with statements like that by powell. >> margaret, this is the perennial question, voters, this is all out there. it's information is going to become very salient in the coming months as the trials begin, will voters start to grow tired of these bogus conspiracies that have been totally and completely ruled, completely made up? >> yeah, to your point, it is a perennial question. at what point do voters start to cripple under the weight of the justice system in the same way that some of these witnesses have previously been in line with donald trump? i think they do, and i think we saw that, we saw a glimmer of that with the new york times cnn poll last week. at the bottom of the poll was this question, if donald trump is convicted and sentenced to jail, will you voters in these six key swing states critical states, continue to support donald trump over joe biden? in every single one of them the answer is no, and by significant margins. so if you're looking at suburban voters just like romney mcdaniel identified herself, they are going to fall away. another point, this is all happening in georgia. georgia is a state where republican primary voters, while they self identify as republican, you can't assume they are trump. the reelected broad raffensperger, they reelected to brian kemp. >> and they rejected trump. >> and by doing that, they were proxies for being anti-trump and they were reelected very, very hardly. all of this drip, drip, drip is happening in georgia local news in addition to national news. and so i think that affects the georgia voters significantly and georgia is a battleground state. i think this all does not have an impact, both at a micro state level and macro. >> we will see how ronna mcdaniel is very important question that changes as the numbers become more salient going deeper into the primary and general election. margaret, sarah, thank you very much for joining us tonight. now, i want to bring in former republican congressman denver riggleman. congressman, thank you for joining us. look, republicans have claimed for a long time that they are the party of law and order but you just heard there the rnc chair woman, ronna mcdaniel, saying she would support a convicted criminal if he were the party's nominee. what happened? i think, if you think about ronna mcdaniel in the gop, they still have the tweet up where sydney powell is talking about the stolen election back in november for 2020. so i think that you've got to look at what they do, not what they say. what we've seen from the gop since november of 2020 going through january six is the fact that they say they are the party of law, but they support what happened on january 6th based on actions. for me, abby, i think it's ridiculous. with the data that we've seen, with the analysis that we've done, with a fact based insight that we looked at on january 6th, that we have an individual who is that she's for lawn ardor, the parties for law & order, that they would support somebody like donald trump has been indicted 91 times. it is just unbelievable to me that they still think that people don't see right through what they're doing. >> look, congressman, just over the weekend trump, once again, back at it, calling his opponents on the left vermin in a speech on veterans day in new hampshire. just take a listen to that. >> we pledge to you that we will root out the communists, marxists, fascists, and radical left thugs that live like vermin within the confines of our country. >> live like vermin. you are a former congressman whose district included charlottesville where we know what happened there with those deadly riots. you also know what this kind of rhetoric can unleash. is this trump escalating again? >> it is. i think, obviously abby, i think january 6th was really just a test case. when you talk about what happened before that, we saw the data with the language. it was dehumanizing language there is language to try to divide. when you're talking about somebody using the word vermin. i know so many people talked about how it seems to copy some of the mannerisms of what happened in germany with hitler, and sort of this language of separating people and the language of really hyper radicalization. you can weaponize language, you can weaponize conspiracy theories, and i think that's what you are seeing. you're seeing weaponized language to dehumanize other individual and is a pastor violence. what scares so many that have been in a domestic or counter terrorism arena. we look at radicalization like i have, that that kind of language is really awful because what it does is it identifies people as the enemy and it really plays to that apocalyptic, messianic believes a system that it is good against evil. if you are writing vermin and identify them as vermin, what would you do to them in order to save your country? up with that in quotes. that is why, it is just devastatingly bad and i think that you need to look at the january 6th as something that is really what can happen compared with this kind of language an escalation. >> from a political perspective we just came off of a election in your home state of virginia where republicans failed to meet, even their benchmarks, republicans generally have seen a net loss of seats in the house and senate and governorships, all since trump was elected. so, what will it take for republicans, what will it take for the rnc chair woman whose job is to secure the electoral prospects of your party, to say that this is not worth it anymore? >> it would take courage. it would take valuing the american people over a grifter and a shuster like donald trump. it would take caring about what happens in the future, instead of caring about polling, and that is the issue. trump can't really win a whole lot at the local election level, but he can certainly help people lose. and he's counting on that. so, you have a party, that has only held hostage by somebody who understands that it power is in the base. again, she has to do what she has to do in order to continue to be an hour herself. really, it's a simple fact that she cares more about a party with an are behind it than she does about the american people and it's the fact that she can't tell the truth. she can't tell the truth how she feels, or she is not going to be the actual party leader anymore. it's what it comes down to, power, money, comes down to influence. it's more important to people like ronna mcdaniel then the american people. >> and self preservation there as well. former congressman, denver riggleman, we appreciate it. >> thank you ma'am. >> four days until the government shuts down. new house speaker mike johnson will likely need bipartisan support to keep it open. that is what has got the previous speaker, kevin mccarthy, removed from his job. we will speak with one of the lawmakers who led the charge to get rid of mccarthy, that is congressman matt gaetz, and it is up next. >> tonight, the republican house speaker looks like he does not have enough republican votes to pass's plan to fund the government. that's just three days now before the government bills come due, again, the speaker may have to rely on democrats. it is the exact scenario that cost kevin mccarthy's job, and joining me now is republican congressman from florida matt gaetz. congressman gaetz, thank you for coming back to the show. >> thank you for having. me >> first of, will you vote yes on a clean c r this week? >> i will not, because it doesn't address our spending challenges. we see the top of a 33 trillion dollar debt, deficits, the interest on the national debt is about to eclipse 900 billion dollars and just days ago moody's downgraded the united states from stable to negative, specifically citing our inability under both republican and democratic administrations to deal with these the fiscal challenges. just a lack of governance over the enhanced spending that's diluting the american dollar and driving inflation. >> are you losing confidence now in your pick for the speaker, mike johnson? >> i'm not. i understand that mike johnson is looking for about a 75 days of breathing room here i. don't think that we made the right choices, the country is with us on the border, 75% of the country believes washington spends too much money, i think that we should've chosen one of those high heels to fight on instead speaker johnson has chosen to have that battle in divided government, tens of days from now. i hope he is successful, i'm going to work to see that he is successful in that regard. there's a fundamental difference here between johnson and mccarthy. mccarthy had seven months, johnson has only had a few weeks. so, we will see what he does in the full amount of time under his belt. >> that is interesting that you would say this is a question of how much time that they have had. i want to play for you what you told me back on september 22nd when mccarthy was speaker at the time, listen. >> if speaker mccarthy puts a continuing resolution on the floor to keep the government open for 30 days, is that an us, in your mind, to force a vote to keep him out of his job? >> i agree with many of my colleagues who say that speaker mccarthy embraces a clean continuing resolution to continue to spending policies of nancy pelosi and joe biden, that would most likely trigger a motion to vacate. >> isn't speaker johnson also doing the same thing? pursuing a continuing resolution that continues the policies, in your word, of nancy pelosi and joe biden. why would that not cost him his job? >> as i said before you played that clip, it's all a function of time. you see, michael johnson and kevin mccarthy both promised us a path to single subject spending bills. in seven months of kevin mccarthy being speaker he only delivered one of them. if mike johnson is only able to deliver one of them over seven months then he would likely face a motion to vacate, too. >> he's asking for 75 days at current spending levels. you said that was, continuing the spending levels and governing by cr, you said was a deal breaker for mccarthy. on top of that, -- >> you're not hearing me, though. if mccarthy had endeavored upon those single subject spending bills for the seven month he had been speaker he would not have faced a motion to vacate. it's that he pushed back against the wall and tried delivery truck down politics to get us to do what the lobbyist and special interests in the swamp always want to do, and that's a void itemize review. mike johnson is working to get us in a posture to be able to do the very work i've been calling for. it is not comparable. >> i hear what you're saying but it sounds to me like you're talking about just some procedural issues. i think you would want -- >> you don't see the distinction? >> you've been on the show, you want to talk about the policy here, which is the level of spending that the government is doing. at the end of the day, mccarthy was going to give you what you wanted, which was to take up these individuals spending bills. you kicked him out of his job because of a procedural thing, which is the same procedural thing that mike johnson is doing right now and mike johnson is also going to be relying on democrats in order to pass the rule to get this onto the floor. why are you holding him to a different standard? >> i'm not, if we are seven months into the mike johnson speakership and we have only moved a single subject spending bill, then mike johnston would likely face if a similar fate. but in mike johnson's first week as speaker he's moving bill after bill. he has shown a commitment and sincerity in this process that was totally absent under kevin mccarthy and the distinction is easily explainable when you look at the amount of time he just had. i think micah johnson deserves the opportunity to have some runway, to execute decision. i'm not going to join in any vision that is a continuing resolution of current policies and current spending levels, but i don't think it warrants an ouster unless that is a theory of governments that pre dominates over some -- so former speaker mccarthy, just over the weekend he spoke to our colleague manu raju and he said that he believed that he would throw the country away, those are his words in order to protect yourself. and, that your chief concern is about shutting down an ethics committee investigation into you. do you have a response to that? >> i watched manu's discussion with the former speaker. it seemed more like a therapy session than an interview. i don't know if manu is going to be spending a pill that the capitol will pay, for but i'm the most investigated man in all of congress. i've been declared by the fbi, doj, even the investigation commission. mccarthy is trying to use this to explain ways on failures. what is not explained is that in the penultimate vote before mike johnson was designated speaker by our conference, kevin mccarthy had whittled down to only 43 supporters continuing to write his name. and so i don't think we can assume that all 150 plus other members who were wanting to move past kevin mccarthy had ethics problems, it seems more like projection to me. somebody who's own inability to tell the truth either republicans or democrats, ultimately resulted in his ouster. >> quickly, before you go congressman, what is your red line for the current speaker? is there anything that he can do that would cause him to lose your confidence? >> he's got to release the january 6th tapes. he said that will be coming out in franchise. i know him to be a man of his word, i expect him to do that. it was the only promise he made other than it desire to get back to our single subject spending bills and he's got to do that, i think you will. we also saw the subpoena go out to hunter biden and also to frank biden, so i think that will show a more rigorous commitment to our oversight agenda than we ever had under kevin mccarthy. >> all right, congressman matt gaetz, thank you for joining us tonight. >> thank you, abby. >> and, americans are saying that they're not feeling the benefits from biden's economic plans. is the so-called biden economics helping americans? and, can anyone even define it? we will debate that, next. >> no question, president biden is facing a tough road ahead in his 2024 reelection campaign. latino voters, a key group for democrats, are telling cnn now that they're not satisfied with what they have seen from biden, specifically when it comes to the economy. listen. >> are you happy with your vote for joe biden? >> well i didn't see changes. so i was expecting something. >> every month struggle. >> right now i'm working two jobs because i have to pay more things, like my house, it is more expensive. >> a similar sentiment is being shared among democratic voters just more broadly. look at, this recent polling showing that only 23% say that they are better off financially than they were before biden became president, but 15% saying they are not as well off and 60% saying they're about the same. joining me now is kevin o'leary, chairman of o'leary ventures, along with kathryn rampell. she's also washington post opinion columnist. catherine, you hear there, with that voter, and you see in the polling, that people, even the ones inclined to support president biden just don't feel solid and comfortable with their financial situation. that has got to be a huge issue for the president. >> it absolutely is. if you look at biden's ratings, in, fact if you look at the approval ratings of pretty much every political leader that has presided around the world over a bout of extended inflation, they are all in the toilet. the economy is definitely dragging on biden's poll numbers. look, in some, ways on paper, the economy looks relatively good. if you look at unemployment, gdp growth, on paper the economy looks quite resilient, particularly relative to the alternative. you know, there is a lot of fear of recession for example following that high bout of inflation. but voters just aren't feeling. it >> but how do they run on the economy? if they're signaling that they're gonna be running on this economy? >> the economy is actually quite good, i recoveries a statement. the problem is that bidenomics is not branded with inflation, particularly around housing, energy, and protein food. and so these are things you deal with every day as a voter and, if you look at history, over a long period of time, regardless of what side of the aisle you're on, when you're fighting the fight for your second mandate in an inflationary times, the other side always makes it very easy to point out that you failed on keeping the cost of living constant. and it is a very tough mandate to beat. you just say what did it cost you to fill up your car? how much is that steak or that hamburger you're buying and what about the price of your house? are you going to sell it and pay seven, eight, 9% for your mortgage? this is going to be a remarkable outcome in this election, it's going to be decided by, i think, bidenomics, which is now a negative brand, not a positive one. >> catherine, what is the definition of bidenomics? >> i'm so glad you asked. bidenomics is whatever you want it to be. if you are joe biden, bidenomics is anything good happening in the economy. it is job growth, it is wage gains at the bottom of the income distribution, if you are a political adversary of joe biden,'s bidenomics is anything bad happening in the economy, particularly inflation. >> it seems like a recipe for a very bad campaign slogan? >> yes -- >> can you drop it now, can he drop the brand with 11 months left? >> he wants to take credit for the good things that we're going. on >> what good? things >> there has been strong growth of job growth. we have avoided a recession, despite the fact that historically following an extended period of inflation the economy has fallen into recession. it is where he had all of the -- >> that's coming to a theater near you soon, that's the point. >> if you look at the forecast for a recession going forward it has gone way down. >> to your point, look, we are just talking about this. 150,000 jobs created in october, gdp 4.9%, really kind of eating a lot of the rest of the developed world. gas prices are $3.37. >> but inflation remains at 3.6% and there is two trillion dollars of free money coming in the chips and science act and the inflation reduction act. that is extraordinary inflation, not a cent has been spent yet. so the risk that bidenomics has, if you want to tie those two programs to bidenomics and you have to, those are his programs, is when you turn that crank of free money from the helicopter, you get the inflation back at you right in the middle of a campaign next year, which is why i think, this is my own personal forecast, another 50 basis point rate hikes from the fed. getting the terminal rate to six, your mortgage will be nine, your car alone will be ten, that is really going to hurt you in the polls. i'm just a observer, i'm trying to be completely agnostic the party on this, it is tough to tell people sorry, that correlate cost to 5% 24 months ago costs you 9% now. that mortgage, that is eight and a half. sorry, that is bidenomics. >> i think it is unlikely that the industrial policy programs, which i've been critical of, to be clear, are going to be -- >> they haven't even started. yet >> there over a longer time period. i think it's very unlikely they'll have a material fact on inflation in the next year, heading into the election. i'll put it that way. that doesn't mean that the b7 inflation has been vanquished. at this point, what americans are mad just about is the price growth we've already seen to date. they don't want a slower inflation, which is what the fed is aiming for. they don't want 3% inflation, they want deflation. they want prices to go back to what they were in 2019, which should not happen. >> it's not going to happen before the election. >> it shouldn't happen ever, if that happens it's the sign of an economy in crisis. if prices overall are going down,. that's how you got the great depression. >> how do you win with bidenomics? where is the? when >> i think it's very challenging, i think biden has been dealt, he has made some mistakes, but he's also been dealt a very difficult set of cards, which is that consumers want something that is not going to happen that we should not want to happen. we shouldn't want at the price level to be go down, to be clear, and he can't message his way out of that. there are things he could do on the margin to make their lives a little bit better, to bring down some prices. i've talked about them before, they were things like repealing some of the tariffs that he kept around, that they criticized, when biden put -- when trump had to put them into place. there are some things that he can do on the margin. but the overall challenge that he faces is that prices have gone up quite a lot and they're not going to go back down. into wages rise measurably with those price increases, -- >> the best outcome is that there is no rate increases from the fed in january, february, march. when you're in the campaign in saying, look, we have tamed the beast, we're sitting at three and a half percent, but it's going to come down and the fed is staying higher for longer, but not raising rates. because, i think the tripping point is on housing, on food, on energy. >> i think that's what people -- you heard her there, she said the cost of my house is going up. >> i rest my case, your honor. >> again, inflation may be stabilizing to some extent, but the way people feel it, when they go to the grocery store, when they pay their rent or their mortgage, when they try to buy a house and they can't, that is what is hard for the biden white house and campaign to deal with. kevin o'leary, kathryn rampell, an interesting conversation and debate between the two of you. thank you. up next for us, news on new york city mayor's eric adams investigation into his fundraising. >> tonight there are new details on the federal investigation centered on new york's mayor, eric out of this. top officials briefed on the probe tell cnn it is about campaign money, favors, and a possible foreign influence from turkey. laura coates has more, coming up in a moment.