welcome to cnn "prime time." by this "time" the 45th president of the united states will likely have surrendered and he is expected to turn himself tomorrow evening after traveling from his new jersey golf course in the afternoon. three key lawyers sidney powell, jenna ellis and rudy giuliani all surrendered today and are released on bond. giuliani completing yet another leg in his journey from america's mayor to criminal defendant. now, all of this comes as a federal judge has rejected a last-minute legal maneuver by mark meadows and jeffrey clark who were trying to avoid arrest if they failed to turn themselves in by friday's deadline. plus, a plane flying over russia just suddenly plum heets to earth. crashing and burning and killing everybody onboard, including, according to russian authorities, the wagner group chief and coup architect yevgeny prigozhin. now, many have been wondering how he managed to survive this long but notably that crash comes two months to the day after prigozhin led a failed mutiny against vladimir putin's military leadership. today president joe biden suggested putin may have been behind it. >> i don't know for a fact what happened. i am not surprised. there is not much that happens in russia without putin behind it. i don't know enough to know the answer. >> i want to begin with cnn's chief law enforcement and intelligence analyst john miller. so, john, it's a big day tomorrow for donald trump. walk us through what we can expect to see at this fulton county jail. >> i think it's going to be minimalist, which is the secret service is going to get him on his plane in new jersey. they are going to fly into the airport there. they are going to have a full motorcade, abby. that means the limo, the bulletproof car that's carrying donald trump with lead cars from the secret service and the local police. they will have intersection control, which means as he passes by those roads, everything is going to be blocked. he will go into the sallyport in the jail. that's where you come in that back entrance. the gates close behind the car then the next set of gates open and you go the jail. the rest of the motorcade will reform for the departure. we will never actually see him until he gets back to the airport where he may make a statement. >> and that's going to be the key, the coming in and going out. but explain to us -- >> 20 minutes, i think, the whole process in the jail is going to be. >> why is this happening? we are expecting it to happen in the evening. typically, we expect court business to be done during normal business hours. why is that happening? >> well, so there is one reason which is the stated purpose, which is atlanta, the beltway around atlanta, going to the fulton county jail, that's a heavy traffic rush hour. both in the morning and in the afternoon -- >> fair enough. >> and bringing a presidential motorcade through, even if it's a former president, is going to have a real toll on traffic. now, we, in new york, know that happens from time to time at whatever time is convenient for the sitting president. in this case, though, i think there is a subtext here, which is if you are just going through a primetime night where you have had all the other candidates on the air doing a debate on wednesday, and you can surrender in the middle of the day or in primetime television hours where you are going to dominate that coverage and then say your piece on the way out, it may be a matter of programming as much as anything else. >> and jail officials also basically said, hey, come when you want, but you've got to show up at this jail to surrender yourself. john miller, thank you very much for breaking that down for us. and while all of that is happening tomorrow, a busy day today at that fulton county jail. rudy giuliani sounding a defiant tone during his appearance outside. >> i am very, very honored to be involved in this case. this case is a fight for our way of life. this indictment is a travesty. it's an attack on not just me, not just president trump, not just people in this indictment. some of whom i don't even know. this is an attack on the american people. >> and joining me is former assistant special watergate prosecutor nick ackerman, jeff duncan, and also with us cnn political commentator van jones. gentlemen, thank you for being here. nick, i want to start with you. a as a former prosecutor during the watergate era, you have a perspective on this, this parade of former officials from the highest levels to the lowest levels, you know, a bail bondsman, it really shows the breadth and scope here. put it in context for us. >> you had the same thing in watergate. starting out with the burglary. we had people who were just people, folks taken up from florida that came in to break into the watergate complex that were brought into the d.c. courts. and then you had people as high as attorney generals. attorney general mitchell, who was nixon's attorney general and campaign manager. another attorney general who also pled guilty. two of his top aides wound up pleading guilty. so it was kind of the same parade of horribles in 1973 and '4 that we are seeing here today. it really is deja vu all over again. >> jeff, you know, as a republican, this has to kind of hit you a certain way seeing all of these people who call themselves -- there is a -- the former republican party chair of georgia, who is a part of all of this. but trump today reacting to giuliani's surrender on social media basically saying that giuliani was the greatest mayor in new york history. it's a sad day for the country. what you would expect from trump. how do you feel? >> i do know the former head of the republican party david schaefer beat him to become the nominee for lieutenant governor a few years ago. in a matter of a few days we are seeing the seriousness of this case. you have so many folks that are indicted. you have coconspiracies unnamed. you have got 48 people fighting for freedom. nobody has allegiance to donald trump. watching this fundraising apparatus that donald trump is trying to wrap around some individuals is an attempt to try to keep them on his team. look, this is -- i think there is also an interesting strategy. everybody has their own lanes, own defense mechanisms. but nobody is doubling down on this is 100% true. here is the folder of facts. i have a box of -- >> the only person doing that is trump. >> well, absolutely. the other folks are fighting for their freedom. they are not running for president. >> you are seeing the cracks there. i mean, you know, i am sure for you, it's a different take. you are seeing unlike all of the other cases, this is not just about trump. it's about trump and everybody around him. seeing some measure of perhaps some would say accountability. >> that's a nice word. this prosecutor is different. she is not like the other -- you know, jack, he is, hey, i am going after trump. everybody else is mentioned. not going to get them in trouble. she threw the book at trump, through the library at trump, through everything at trump and everybody else he knows. like i'm not messing around here. and, you know, she is being true to herself. she has done that to rappers, to teachers, she is a no-nonsense, for-real prosecutor. republicans usually like that stuff. they like tough prosecutors. george soros is making all these prosecutors be too tough on crime. now you have a tough one. you. be happy. but they are not happy. >> they are calling it a partisan rigged endeavor. >> i thought you like law and order prosecutors. you got one now coming after donald trump. >> if anything, it shows how people look at the justice system suddenly differently when they are a part of the it. the other thing that happened today a federal judge basically said to jeffrey clark and mark meadows nice try. >> of course. this was nonsense. absolutely nonsense. the only way that they could ever get this transferred to federal court is to somehow show that this was in the scope of their duties as a federal employee. this has already been decided by judge hellerstein in the southern district in the new york case. it's not in the scope of donald trump's duties to be phonying up documents to conceal he was paying off a porn star. it's also not within his scope of duties to be trying to undermine an election and steal an election from joe biden. that's just not what the law provides for. so this is a nice try, but it's not going to work. >> i want to play a little bit more from giuliani today. speaking outside of the court -- actually, earlier in the day, talking about this case. >> i am being prosecuted for defending an american citizen who i do as a lawyer. and five other lawyers are indicted. that should tell you right away that this is a an assault on our constitution. >> i mean, it is striking that so many lawyers are indicted. >> well, i think it's because so many lawyers were involved. that was the scheme. dream up crazy unfounded ideas and get a couple of lawyers to splash a little bit of legalese on it, make twitter posts, get state legislators that want endorsements and before you know 10 million people fall hook, line and sinker and january 6th we show up and watch the biggest disaster we have seen in a long, long time in the country. that was the play. these attorneys were accountable for this disaster. >> yeah, i mean, being a lawyer is not a vindication for doing something that is wrong. i think if all the cases have shown us that, it is that one thing. >> i am a lawyer, but i can't help people commit crimes. >> you are? >> i learned something new. >> we are the only non-lawyers at that table. >> the same thing that happened in watergate. two attorneys general. you had john dean, would was the counsel to the president. you had all of these various lawyers scattered throughout the -- all of the departments. this was like the sought rage at the time. why are so many lawyers involved? it's just repeating itself again. >> i will let you finish your thought. >> i do think that two things are happening. one is unconventional and one is unlawful. in our constitution, there are all these extra innings, you know, that you do have -- the states have to do stuff. usually by convention, whoever lost on election night concedes. you don't have to concede. you could fight if you want to. but you can't cheat in the extra innings. is unconventional to continue your campaign. it's unlawful to do it by cheating, by lying, by deception. and so, you know, this is going to be -- you are going to have people saying you are being -- you're wrong for stopping the president for fighting for his rights. that's not it. you can't cheat doing it. >> fani willis has to show and prove there was cheating involved. jeff, van, nick, thank you for joining us. now we want to brining in retired secret service agent ray moore, in charge. atlanta field office. we saw giuliani surrendering today. the former president is a bigger security situation. the scene for giuliani was the beginnings of some of the chaos we may see tomorrow. how are authorities, do you think, coordinating all of this with only a few hours left before trump shows up there? >> that plan has already been put in place by patrick labatt and steve basil from the secret service. they understand that giuliani coming in is going to bring some activity. not as much as former president trump. so they are planning for that. they are going to contact other law enforcement agencies around the city and ask for mutual aid, and those officers and those dents will share their personnel to assist them in making that jail more secure. >> and today giuliani and john eastman, back on tuesday, they were surrounded by just a scrum of press as they came in, they answered questions. we were talking to john miller a little bit about this. but is it fair to assume that will not happen with trump, he is going to not be allowed sort of be surrounded in that way? >> that may be the part of the agreement that they made, he won't do that. but you could never say never with former president trump. >> fair enough. i agree with mr. miller. . it may occur at the airport where there are more restrictions in getting on to the tarmac or the area where he is and he has more freedoms there. but at the jail, they are going to have some more restrictions put on by sheriff labatt. >> and he can do what he wants once he leaves the jail just as he did in florida. so there only been just a few protesters for and against trump outside so far. this week, though, law enforcement, they are continuing to monitor to see if a larger crowd is expected to show up. trump is encouraging people to rally. how are they going to plan for that? >> well, the good thing you have got the fbi and the gbi intelligence units looking and searching the internet to see if there is any chatter about those types of events. and they will communicate that to the local secret service field office and the local sheriff's department and again that goes back to the mutual aid. if they hear or see anything like that developing, they will allow people to come out, law enforcement to support them. >> yeah. all right. ray moore, thank you very much. for all of those insights. >> thank you. and coming up next for us, a plane that just happened to have the man who launched a coup against vladimir putin onboard suddenly crashes and burns. what we're learning at this hour and what it means for russia, ukraine, and the rest. world. 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>> russian state media is reporting this. this is a top story. it says that there is a private jet and it was flying from moscow to st. petersburg and it crashed sometime after 6:00 p.m. local time. that's a little bit less than 11 hours ago in the tver region. the russian authorities published a list of some of the ten passengers onboard. there were three crew, seven passengers. and they include the boss of the wagner mercenary group, yevgeny prigozhin, and some of his top lieutenants, including dmitry utkin, who founded the mercenary group as well as one of his top lieutenants, also sanctioned by the u.s. government by the treasury department. now, the russian officials say that they have launched a criminal investigation into this crash trying to determine the cause of it. meantime, we are seeing that some of the telegram groups, russian social media groups that were affiliated with wagner and supporters of prigozhin are claiming that he was actually killed and we've seen some supporters up in st. petersburg, that's where his headquarters is, wagner center, already laying flowers there and candles. it's important to note that while prigozhin had many enemies in ukraine where he fought, in the kremlin where he mounted a coup against putin back in june, he also had many admirers in you russia. >> yeah, we have seen that before in the past during that coup, in fact. david, on the aviation side of this, we have been playing this video of the plane basically falling out of the sky. when you look at that, is there anything you can tell about what might have happened there, what might have caused this crash? >> there is very little to go by on that video. however, that airplane doesn't just fall out of the sky. there are thousands and thousands, tens of thousands of hours on those airplanes. that doesn't happen unless something came up on it, internal explosion or external explosion. but the way it's falling down through the air there, it looks like it only has one wing left on it. there is also some photos of the tail that came off of the aircraft. that could either have been during the fall or at the point of impact, whatever caused it to fall. >> and, i mean, obviously, prigozhin must have known that he was a target for assassination after that mutiny attempt. i mean, is there anything he could have done to protect his plane? people joke about having a food taster. what can you do when you know that you are flying around and you're a target? >> well, when anyone that's critical to wagner travels, it's not uncommon to have a misleading list of people on the airplane so they have two airplanes. they had two legacy aircraft in the air. there was a 650 that belonged to prigozhin and also a 600 flying. so it's not uncommon. in fact, it's fairly common to have decoys like you said. and that could be what this is. it's 50/50 chance. but still, if he was on that list, it's just as probable he was on the 600 as if he was on the 650. but if he still is alive, i am sure we will hear quickly, unless he is using this as a way to go jounderground and stay ou of the limelight. >> a lot of mystery. thank you both very much. and earlier today president biden weighed in on that deadly crash. >> i don't know for a sfafact w happened. iechl not surprised. there is not much that happens without putin known. i don't know the answer. >> i want to bring in former u.s. ambassador to ukraine and ambassador william taylor. ambassador taylor, what do you think of what president biden saudi arabia says there? is putin behind prigozhin's death? >> mine, in all likelihood, yes. as he said, there is not a lot that goes on, certainly in the kremlin, certainly having to do with the russian government, that the president doesn't lead and direct. so, yes, i believe president putin was responsible for this downing. we are not entirely sure that prigozhin was on that plane. he was on the manifest. he is likely dead. but it's not 100% certain. >> yeah, that's exactly what david was just suggesting earlier. but i wonder, i mean, people are probably asking the obvious question. prigozhin remained in russia instead of staying in belarus. he had to have known he was a target here. why would he do that? >> it's a great question. i mean, it's a great question. he had to know that putin came out right away on the morning of that mutiny saying that prigozhin was a traitor and that putin was going to go after him, smash him, and then by the end of the day putin had pardoned him and he was -- prigozhin was allowed to move around russia, move to belarus, spend time there, spend time apparently in africa. he was moving around and apparently without threat. he had to know. you're exactly right. bill burns said the same thing, don't give up the food taster because putin has a long memory. >> yeah. what do you think happens to the wagner group after all of this? i mean, first there was the failed coup, and now prigozhin himself is presumed dead? >> presumably dead. wagner, however, still exists, and it has some functions. wagner has some role to play for the russian government in africa, for example. it props up dictators and coup plotters, and so the russians would like to kind of maintain that. and they could put somebody else in charge of wagner. if prigozhin's dead, they have other oligarchs they could put in charge. wagner also provides food, rations for the russian military. and again that's a useful function. doesn't need to have prigozhin at the top of wagner to do that. so they may maintain some form of wagner to do these functions. >> and if you are ukraine in this moment, what does this all signal for that war? >> this signals to the ukrainians that the russian chain of command, military chain of command is inward focused. that is, president putin doesn't know who is loyal to him and who is not. just today at the same time prigozhin likely died, the russian military fired and demoted a russian general who was associated with prigozhin. so there are other russian generals that disappeared or have been fired or pulled out of command. that is to say, the russian military not in good shape. the ukrainians are in the midst of this long, steady, grinding, but making some progress counteroffensive, and if the russians are distracted, then the ukrainians can take advantage. >> the counterargument perhaps to that is that people question putin's grip on power when prigozhin launched this coup. now prigozhin is presumptively dead. what lessons should the leaders of western capitals be taking away from all of this? i mean, is putin strong or is he weak? >> he is weaker than he was before the mutiny. there is no doubt about that. he tried to gain back some credibility, some perception of strength by killing prigozhin, if that's indeed what happened. but president putin has been -- has been seen to have been making big mistakes. made an enormous mistake when he invaded ukraine. then he allowed prigozhin to get out of hand. then he went after prigozhin at the beginning of this episode and then gave him a free pass afterwards at the end of that day. so putin has been demonstrating, has been seen, has been proven to be inconclusive, indecisive, and weaker at that point. and the head of move yeah government. >> all right. ambassador william taylor, thank you very much for all of that. >> thank you. and much more ahead on what russia says is the death of the wagner group chief. two experts to discuss the new power dynamics inside of russia, and if putin's grip on power is even stronger now than it was before. wake up, achievers. you're making the most of every hour of your life. except the hours that you're sleeping. so w do we leave so much untapped potential on the table? 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(♪) i'm saving with liberty mutual, mom. they customize your car insurance so you only pay for what you need. you could save $700 dollars just by switching. ooooh, let me put a reminder on my phone. on the top of the pile! oh. only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ a stunning turn of events in russia tonight. the mercenary chief who led a mutiny against vladimir putin's military exactly two months ago potentially killed in a plane crash. russian state media is reporting that the wagner chief yevgeny prigozhin was on that passenger list. joining me is the staff writer for "the new yorker" susan glasser. susan is also a former moscow bureau chief for "the washington post." and she is also joined by senior fellow for the council on foreign relations max, also a "washington post" columnist. max, in your latest column you write that what is striking about prigozhin's demise is that it utterly lacked any of the ambiguity that normally encompasses the removal of those who run afoul of putin. in other words, usually people trip and fall out of windows, and a plane crash seems like an assassination. >> yeah, it's pretty spectacular. putin has to send a message to hold on to power. he was weaken add couple months ago by this wagner rebellion. when you had the armed troops marching within 120 miles of moscow and the fact that putin was not able to stop wagner by force, that made him look all of a sudden vulnerable. the fact that prigozhin got away with this act of insurrection and managed to make it to belarus furthered the image that putin was somehow weak. and now i think this is his spectacular payback to show, no, this is a guy you can't mess around with. this is how he keeps power in this gangster state that he has constructed in russia. >> maybe the very fact that it took a long time as what farther of the signal that putin was sending, eventually it will come around. >> this is what the cia director said. putin likes revenge as a dish served cold. >> a perfect segue. i will play for you, susan, this what several officials said over the last couple of months about what is going on here. >> if i were he, i would be careful what i ate. i mean, i would be keeping my eye on my pen u. >> if i were mr. prigozhin, i what remain very concerned. nato has an open door policy, russia has an open windows policy. >> i think putin is someone who generally thinks that revenge is a dish best served cold. >> susan, i mean, this is stunning, but not surprising. it seems like u.s. officials perhaps western officials broadly understood this was likely to come? >> yeah, i think you're right to underscore the extent to which this was essentially previewed by the cia director, the secretary of state, by the president himself. and the reason is because we have a lot of experience with vladimir putin and when you challenge the kremlin in such a direct fashion, and really nobody has challenged the kremlin in such a direct fashion in the more than 20 years that putin has been in power, people have died for lesser sins than those of yevgeny prigozhin. and there is such a long trail of opponents, of many different varieties, who ended up dead as a result of coming afoul of putin and his circle. so i think that the fact this is happening basically two months after the attempted mutiny by prigozhin is very significant. the fact that one of his key allies it appears inside the russian military hierarchy, general surovikin, was relieved of his command in the russian air force, these are not coincidences. putin remains a believer in the idea that power politics demands almost the opposite of subtle actions in a situation like this. you know, the goal is not for us to be guessing really. it's for people to look at this and to see it as retaliation, retribution, potentially by the kremlin. the message is that putin is strong because, of course, he has been made as max pointed out, made to look weak in a way that really hasn't happened in the 20 years. and it's all a result of his disastrous, disastrous decision to invade ukraine. i think that's really important. the tremors of the war in ukraine have been shaking the foundations of the russian government itself, and that's what's caused putin to have to respond in some way. >> it's a critically important point that putin wouldn't be in this situation were were it not for that decision. should we be asking also whether this was putin directly, or could it have been someone else in the sort of bureaucracy of russia and all of these oligarchs who are beholden to him? >> i would guess it was putin himself. russia is a centralized state. i don't think anybody is a putin subordinate who would dare to do this without the signoff from putin. this is putin settling accounts and making sure that nobody can challenge him. so i would ascribe it to putin. and it's unfortunate -- i mean, nobody is going to mourn for the passing of yevgeny prigozhin. he was a war criminal. he was a terrible person. but i am concerned about what this means. what it suggests is that putin is very much in firm control of the russian state. there is some hope a couple months ago this wagner mutiny might set off refer bases that would bring down putin's power, that might lead to a change of regime. clearly, that's not happen. putin appears to be in control as ever and he can continue fighting the war in ukraine in the near term, which is very bad news because, of course, it's this horrible, evil, costly war of aggression. >> susan, i will give you the last word. we saw the flowers outside of, you know, outside for prigozhin and those who were killed. what does that signal to you about the sentiments inside of russia? >> well, look, i mean, you know, pick your metaphor, abby. the cat inside the bag. power politics at the highest levels are very opaque in putin's russia because there aren't really the kind of real politics that would give us a sense of, you know, how much putin has undermined the strength and legitimacy of his regime with this war in ukraine, with this enormous number of casualties. what he has done, or whoever did this, has silenced a potential power center and rival power center. so to the extent there was real support for prigozhin inside russia, that made him all the more threatening to putin. i think it was very clear for two months that the writing was on the wall for yevgeny prigozhin. it was on him that he chose to remain inside of russia and tempt fates, as it were. >> thank you both very much for joining us. coming up next, a photo that most americans likely thought they'd never see. rudy giuliani's mugshot from the fulton county jail. the former hard-charging federal prosecutor booked on charges, including racketeering. we will look at the evolution of the once famous crime fighter who is now a criminal defendant. 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[whip sound] take the first step to see if your small business qualifies. david: i'm david goldberg, a bilingual elementary school teacher and president of the california teachers association. as we start a new school year, there's something new happening in california's public schools. jessie: they're called community schools. david: where parents and families, students and educators are making decisions as one. damien: it's a real sense of community. leslie: we saw double-digit gains in math, in english, and reading scores. david: it's an innovation that's transforming our public schools. narrator: california's community schools: reimagining public education. this is an attack on the american people. this could happen to me, who is probably the most prolific prosecutor, maybe in american history, and the most effective mayor for sure, it can happen to you. >> a defiant if not particularly modest display from the former mayor rudy giuliani at the fulton county jail today where the former trump attorney surrendered to authorities on charges in the georgia election subversion case. another sad chapter in the legacy of a man once celebrated as of hero in the aftermath after 9/11. but giuliani has since morphed into a prominent per var of lies that the election was stolen about former president donald trump and it all culminated today in that chaotic scene before a scrum of reporters outside of a county jail. joining me now is former georgia state senator jen jordan. she testified in the fulton county grand jury earlier this month. also with us is former chief speech righter for mayor giuliani and cnn's own political analyst john avlon. john, giuliani teed it up well. he is known for all of these things. how could it come to this, that he is turning himself into a county jail on r.i.c.o. charges? >> it's a surreal series of tragedies, twists of fate that were utterly unimaginable. when you look at the mugshot today, he is walking with bernie kerik, who has done prison time, you look at that mugshot and it's a gut punch. this was somebody known primarily as a u.s. attorney, a prosecutor, a law and order guy for better or worse, someone who believed that the law was about a search for the truth. someone who is not a hard partisan. now because he bought into hyper-partisan politics, he has destroyed his reputation and legacy in the service of donald trump. >> he seems to not know that has happened. that's theer it. but, jen, take us into the georgia state legislature much you had such a unique perspective. giuliani came to your committee and gave this presentation. what was that like? what was it like coming from someone like rudy giuliani? >> it was surreal because, a, it was in december, right. and what people don't realize is that in georgia the legislature is part time. so we're not even in session in december. so usually there is no one in the building. all of a sudden you have press everywhere. you walk into the room and there is giuliani, who i have known as a lawyer and watched for a long time. jenna ellis. we were talking about ckerik. he is there, too. it was a weird political reality show. the problem was that there was a real intention in terms of the presentation that they were making, you know, to make sure that they could effectively steal the election. and that's what's led us here. and really it's not about partisanship as much as about power. raw power and wanted to keep it. >> >> i think hyperpartisanship being a hell of a drug to the extent people are willing to distort their world view and distort fact gts in the service of their ambition. >> if i know you can use it to your ends. they understood that by live-streaming that presentation to just basically trump supporters, they knew matherne doing. >> you said as we were f we were talking earlier, he knew to some extent in a quirk of the georgia legislature, you don't swear people in. >> no. >> he told those lies not sworn in for a reason. >> they chose georgia specifically. i look at the federal indictment as the larger conspiracy, but georgia was the implementation on the ground. and part of that was them thinking that they were going to kind of be able to bob and weave with respect to legal issues because they wouldn't be sworn when they are making these statements. >> when we talk about giuliani, another thing comes up. in 1992, he played a role in this police riot outside of city hall, protesting then the city's first black mayor. "the new york times" reported that beer cans and broken beer bottles littered the streets as mr. giuliani led the crowd in chants using an objscenity to refer to dinkins's administration policies. some people say this is an antecedent for giuliani of january 6th. you know him well. what do you say? >> i think that incident was ugly and it's an outlier in the context of rudy's career and certain as mayor. but in the wake of september -- of january 6th, excuse me, there is an inevitable echo to draw the comparisons. it's important to understand, and i think one of the tragedies of what occurred, it's a self-inflicted tragedy, i want to emphasize that, is that a lot of the great good he did, not without controversy, with regard to reducing crime, welfare, improving the quality of life, a lot of initiatives that a lot of cities could learn from today, that is off limits because he has destroyed his legacy, made it toxic. incidents like that look likes it reveals his real character. a facet of his character. it didn't define the way he acted as u.s. attorney or certainly as mayor when i was there. though he was controversial. >> he was. some of the kind of themes that later popped up with donald trump, giuliani, you know, in his messaging, running for mayor back in the '90s, giuliani was -- >> i -- >> that was part of his reputation, too. >> i would push back on that. rudy and trump were not close when he was bhar. it was always going to be loaded. but -- >> with race? >> yes. but, you know, one of the things that people say his slogan one city, one standard was racist. i don't believe that's necessarily racist at all. i think it's loaded. and indeed, you know, the crime ra transformation that he helped enact was beneficial to all communities in the city, transformative. you now these things are footnotes to the fact that he lit his legacy on fire for donald trump. >> yeah, that's a really important point. john, jen, thank you very much. and just ahead for us rudy giuliani's booking photo is now added to the list of famous and notable people who had their mugshots taken. is donald trump next? we'll be back in just a moment. 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[coughing] ...from this highly... ...contagious virus. not all dangers come with warning labels. talk to your pharmacist or doctor... ...about getting vaccinated against rsv today. ♪ i wanna hold you forever ♪ hey little bear bear. ♪ ♪ ♪ i'm gonna love you forever ♪ ♪ ♪ c'mon, bear. ♪ ♪ ♪ you don't...you don't have to worry... ♪ ♪ be by your side... i'll be there... ♪ ♪ with my arms wrapped around... ♪ when you find your reason to go on, let it pull you past the doubt. past the pain, and past your limits. no matter what, we go on. biofreeze >> rudy giuliani and his codefendants, who surrendered so far in the georgia election subversion case now have had their mugshots taken and recorded for posterity. former president trump is said to be booked in the fulton county jail tomorrow evening. and it is still unclear if he will actually have his mugshot taken. but the georgia codefendants -- they all join this long list of famous people who have had their mugshots become iconic, including frankston ahtra, jimi hendrix, johnny cash but, in more recent years to, some were familiar names to like lindsay lohan back in 2010 for probation violations. there's pollution paris hilton -- suspicion of cocaine -- khloe kardashian, also, in 2008 for violating her probation following a dui rsv. so, there is another one for the history books here. and, ahead here we -- the takeaways from the first republican presidential debate. which candidates were the famous line from democratic president barack obama? and how did this song factor into all of it? >> ♪ ♪ ♪ >> also, who is accused of sounding like chatgpt? we will have all of those moments and issues coming up. 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