we learned that rudy giuliani is expected to meet with the fulton county d.a. tomorrow, to talk about a possible band agreement. i want to talk with correspondent tom foreman, at the magic wall, breaking it down for us all on what's happening right now. we have senior law enforcement analyst, former fbi director, andrew mccabe is with us today. sarah matthews and gene rossi. back to you, tom foreman, in terms of what's going on right now break it down. how are we going to unpack all of this? >> we'll start with the two names you began with. john eastman. this is the trump lawyer who led the charge on the plan whereby mike pence would not certified the votes and they would kick it to the house of representatives and/or to governor gop-controlled legislate churs around the country, where they would declare trump to be the winner. he gave another impassioned speech today as he turned himself in. look, i'm just a lawyer representing the president. if you make this illegal, how are we going to do our jobs? the bail bondsman in atlanta, he is tied to the election machine breach. there were machines up there where the investigation found that a group of trump allies went in there and took data from the machines, which the prosecutor says is in violation of law. two mug shots so far. as you note, we have 19 total defendants. there will be a bit of a rush at the courthouse in next couple days. >> we want to bring in the panel. this is a yearbook photo, in many respects of what's going on. i want to begin with you. this has been a tangled web of people. remember what happened with jack smith and that indictment in washington, d.c. that was one defendant. had three in mar-a-lago. now, you have 19. the fulton 19. the fact you have all these people involved, i mean, and mark meadows is fighting not to be arrested. what does this tell you? >> i think that obviously, this is a wide stretching case. it goes to show how many people were involved in that there was an effort to try to overturn the results of the election. these people knew full well what they were doing. and whe m happy to see trump be indicted in the other cases, like the d.o.j. one that you reference, i'm happy to see the trickle-down effect and see some of the other folks who knew full well what they were doing. they put up the different court cases. and time and time again, they failed. and they continued to push these efforts, despite knowing that trump did not lose the election. and then, we see john eastman even today, literally saying, that the 2020 election was stolen. if that was the case, i would love to see a single shred of evidence. none of them have yet to produce anything, including the former president. >> keeping that motion of the trickle-down. you represented clients who have been -- who have breached the capitol, were involved in january 6th. you had to address a notion of pointing fingers and who was directing who. am i going to be accountable and liable for what someone told me to do? how do you see the fact we have all of these people -- we know mark med adows, you know giulia, sidney paowell. a lot of the people on this list, i don't know them. >> you have an indictment of 19 people -- by the way, it's really not 19 people. there's 30 unindicted coconspirators. we have 50 people. that's a lot. >> i have to do math on a tuesday night with you right now? keep going. >> absolutely. we have 19 people. the top five are the most important. the bottom rung are probably talking to their lawyers and vice versa. i have to do a beeline to fani willis and i have to corporate. i'm a minnow. i'm the smallest one on this totem pole. and i have to cooperate and get out of jail. what you're going to see is people cooperating probably in the next two or three months, after they get discovery. and i predict that the david c shaffers of the world and latham could cooperate because they're seeing the writing on the wall. my legal fees aren't getting paid by anybody but me. and i need to think about me. what i used to tell cooperators is, the most important person in your life is you. forget everybody else. forget your buddies on the street. the most important person is you. and andy mccabe will tell you, who they are and what's in the cord cards for them, they're going to cooperate. >> that's how you lean on them. you have to have perspective here. you are by yourself right now. >> that's right. i think gene is right. i don't think there's ever been a 19-person rico case that survived going to trial with all 19 defendants, right? you decide who to charge and how you're going to charge those people with the very close eye on who are you most significant targets? and who are the folks you think are most likely to cooperate to make an effort to cooperate. to plead guilty to reduce charges to provide effective testimony against the people who you believe are most responsible for the crimes. i'm sure that planning when it's in this environment. >> i want to turn back to tom at the magic wall. as you know, mark middose is really fighting hard to get his out of state court and brought to federal court. that's not to say he won't be charged on federal charges. but federal court if successful. he's not alone there, either. he's been joined by two other defendants in his pursuit. what can you tell us? >> mark meadows and jeffrey clark, who worked at the d.o.j., are both taking the stance of saying, we're federal people. we were serving the president in that role. and therefore, this doesn't belong in a state court. had nothing to do with what happened at the state. david shaffer, you mentioned him. gop georgia chairman. he's trying to make the same claim. i was doing what i was hearing from the top. he would like to join them in federal court. it slows everything down. anything you do anything in this case, it will slow it down. all these people, all these lawyers, a lot of things will get slowed down. that's one of the slowing things. potentially, more sympathetic jurors. the debate about this. but the notion being, if you broaden the jury pool in a federal hearing, further beyond fulton county, to atlanta, that will lean so much more blue, you might get more trump symp sympac jurors there. you may be no cameras. and more legal avenues for defense. who winds up over there with them? >> it's an important point. let's bring back in the panel and talk about it. talk about removal to federal court. it's not a slam dunk it's going to happen. you were acting under the color of your office. this is part of your job description in some ways. you can't just charge me. i don't know if it's apparent that will happen here, knowing that elections are the purview of the state. what about the chief of staff's role? and mark meadows would be something, sara, that suggests, look. this is part of what he's supposed to be doing. and there was a claim that was acting in his office. >> i would love to see if mark meadows is willing to say that the 2020 election wasn't stolen. that would contradict that if he's saying, oh, i'm just doing my job and carrying out the duties that the president wanted, okay. you knew it wasn't stolen, that this was all a lie. you were pushing it at the direction of your boss. i think it will be interesting, too. there's been reporting out there that meadows is no longer in communication with the former president. and so, i think that -- >> would that surprise you if that was the case? >> no. i think if mark med dose is smart, he will slip. he was at the center of a lot of the indictments. the classified documents case. whether it's january 6th, with the fake electors scheme. he was there and present. he knows a lot. trump world should be worried if he is cooperating, whether that's with the d.o.j. and/or in the fulton county, georgia, case. mark meadows should know, as i do, having worked in trump world. trump demands loyalty from everyone, but gives it to no one. and i think trump would easily throw him under the bus. >> i mean, the assumption was when we didn't see him in the indictments for january 6th or mar-a-lago, to a larger point, that he was assumed -- we don't know, but assumed to be a cooperator. we had this cooperation. maybe this shows that fani willis has not had the communication with him or he has refused to do so? or look, she's not interested because she might have enough already. >> we know, there's great signals that he's been cooperating with the federal investigation. there's reporting out today that he's carefully responded to requests. put up conresistance to the gra jury. he came in and testified fully. not so much on the georgia side, right? he resisted coming to georgia to testify before the grand jury, when he did finally get dragged in, we understand that he claimed his fifth amendment privilege and refused to answer questions. it's not surprising that he ended up as a defendant in that case and is not yet a defendant on the federal side. >> ooh, yet. >> yet. yeah. i think, you know, there are 16 unindicted coconspirators referred to in the january 6th complaint. mark meadows is not included in that list. he is referred to as the president's chief of staff. i think that investigation is far from over. and he could very well, just like any one of the six, unindicted coconspirators, could find themselves facing charges in the future. unless he actually solidifies an official cooperation agreement with the federal government. >> talk to me about what that would be like, though. let's assume for the sake of argument that mark med dose right now is following the advice of sara and saying, i'm smart i'm going to do this. how does that look from the defense perspective? you're the attorney and you're going to fani willis or jack smith. what are you saying? are you hoping at this point, what i have to offer can't be found anywhere else? >> let me tell you something, he has a fantastic attorney, george williger. it goes back to what you said. you have to think about yourself. and i think mark med dose is reflecting on, should i take a bullet for the team? should i take a bullet for donald trump? in terms of cooperation, he would be the gold standard for the prosecutors. if he provided information to the prosecutors, in a january 6th case, in the fani willis case, he would be an explosive witness. >> you know, he very well could be. you know who might be an explosive witness. back to tom right now. the words and the name rudy giuliani come to mind. we're going to talk about that. he is likely to meet tomorrow with the fulton county d.a.'s office tomorrow. just hours after reporting that he was struggling to find a lawyer in georgia. by the way, tom, we've heard a lot when it comes to co-defendants for donald trump, with walt nada. there was a delay in arraignments. giuliani might have a different reason. what's going on? >> giuliani is facing interesting circumstances. he's been wait out in front on this whole thing. we know he's been having trouble paying his bills. it's not clear if donald trump is helping him with any of that. so, when he goes to meet there, maybe just setting up a deal. maybe setting up another deal. we don't know. bernie kerric, the unindicted coconspirator in the georgia case, has been providing help, to help him coordinate his efforts here. rudy giuliani cannot get through this without having a lawyer down there. it will be interesting to see who he comes up with. and where that lawyer instructs him to go. you mentioned the one-way street of loyalty with the president. you have to wonder with the people that did the most open, vociferous defending, where they feel right like now. like rudy giuliani, he seems to be in a bit of trouble. >> who is the man next to him? >> bernie kerik. >> the one that is offering rudy with advice. bottom line is, everybody out here is staring hard at this, the first of many deadlines. we're expecting donald trump to fold it up here and go in and make his peace with things for the moment. and here we are on tuesday. one thing to remember in all of this, and all of the discussion we're having, every one of these days moves us closer to the election and raises constantly the question, can you get through all of this, to get anything meaningful before that comes around, in terms of what voters will know about what really happened and what a jury might decide. >> so important. thank you, tom foreman. also, there's new reporting tonight, sara, that the reporting in "the new york times," that former president donald trump will now headline a $100,000 per person fund-raiser, for rudy giuliani's legal defense on september 7th. a new date to keep in mind. we know he is in some real financial peril about this. the fact he is hosting it, though, at this, well, costly amount, is telling you there is maybe a scratching of the backs that's happening? >> i believe so. i think he knows that if rudy giuliani were to flip, that would be disastrous for him and his legal case. so, what does he want to do? he wants to help him fund the legal feels. we've seen him do this before. even with walt nauta. he's being represented by a trump lawyer because he's telling a side of the story favorable to trump. we saw it with the january 6th committee, and cassidy hutchinson. they were telling her to not recall events that happened. she did very well recall. and what did she do? she did the right thing, which is switch lawyers. so she was defending her best interests and not trump's best interest. >> when you look at this, gene, this is essentially one of the thing thats i can imagine is going to make the prosecutors raise their eyebrows on something and say, that's interesting. so, your co-defendant in this important case, in fulton county, is a fund-raiser for it? and there's also the bond agreement that you can't actually talk about the facts of the case. is this going to make you nervous? >> as a defense attorney, would make me very nervous. as a prosecutor, i'm salivating. >> i knew it. i knew it. my mouth was watering, as well. >> the reason is this. you go to trial and what is a jury going to hear? they're going to hear that all these people sitting together at the table, are being funded by the lead guy, donald trump. and there's probably going to be joint defense agreement, which can be inquired upon during cross-examination. so, these fund-raising activities and the joint defense agreements, they're good for the defendants to some point. but when you get to trial, and where the rubber meets the road in front of a jury, they are big negatives for the defense. >> real quick, andy, as an investigator, does this make you follow something? >> absolutely. it will be tougher to split away the co-defendants that are taken away from the main guys. they have a raft to use on cross-examination here. fani willis is trying to prove. >> thank you so much, everyone. all eyes are on fani willis, as former president donald trump and 18 co-defendant in the 2020 subversion case. could the case, here's a big question, could it actually outlast even the prosecutor? 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>> the answer is yes. and to make it more painful, if he had just run a normal campaign, talked about all the things he did during the presidency and the conservative leadership and leaned into conservative governors, instead of creating a three-ring circus, joe biden hung out in his basement and beat donald trump. there's more second-guesting going on from the 18 other co-defendants and coconspirators. can you imagine the conversations around the kitchen tables. when the spouse is saying, tell me why we're going to cash in our life savings and soil our reputation for something you don't believe happened? i can't imagine how difficult the conversations are. >> that's an interesting knows. one, how impactful money is to mount a defense against the united states governor or the individual state. it's the notion of all of this, and the premise may not be they believe what is happening. it is a tactic added to delay or to figure something else out. that's a steep hill to climb in any defense, if you didn't believe what was being said. on another notion, you know there are and there continues to be momentum, to oust the d. aca. fani willis. there's republicans that created a commission to remove, to discipline prosecutors, to force her from office. what do you make of the efforts happening there? is this really tailored specifically to fani willis? is there a larger issue? or is this an attempt to further the notion of a weaponized government? >> i was not part of the general assembly when they passed this law. i think it was really a cumulative law to create oversight on district attorneys statewide. it's not just specific to one individual, as i understand it. up to this point, i don't think there's much complaining about the process that fani willis has gone through. i experienced her staff's preparedness when i testified before the special grand jury and the grand jury, i was in a focused group of individuals. and i found no signs of partisanship from start to finish in that process. this continues to be a painful experience for republicans. this is part of our painful learning experience, quite honestly, in healing. we have to accept the fact that donald trump didn't get cheated out of this victory. we simply lost. unfortunately, we're going to continue to pay the price over and over again. a debate without him being there, is a good opportunity for the other eight that are going to be there. and we're going to separate the haves from the have-nots. those that are openly admitting that donald trump is lying to us and we need to move past him and beat joe biden. and you have the have-nots in my opinion, that will pacify the 35%, no matter what happens, they're going to support donald trump. he can be locked up in prison with two ankle bracelets and they would support him and vote for him. it's the 65% of republicans that are still approachable that we need to focus our efforts on. >> you talk about the haves and the havehave-nots, the have cou and the have not courage. he is going to be the big, major elephant in the room. a new litmus test has been formed. about a potential pardon, whether it's conversations about buying into the weaponization of the government. whether you want to throw out the baby with the bath water on the lawsuits brought by jack smith, et cetera. do you think there's going to be candidates on that stage who are going to actually address the substantive policy issues or be allowed to? he picks up the oxygen in rooms that he's not in. >> the haves and have-nots have god-given leadership abilities, able to stay above the fray. to explain the articulate plan to take joe biden out in the 2020 election. and how to improve this country at the border and public safety. when i read publicly traded companies are having to massively adjust earnings reports because of lawlessness that's breaking in stealing stuff from their stores, we have to do something. i believe conservative approaches are actually going to help that situation. the haves and have-nots is genuine leadership. what's happening in fulton county is real. this is a 48-1 game. there's 48 individuals that have nothing they can get from donald trump. i heard rudy giuliani is going to get a shallow fund-raiser to help make a dent in the over $1 million of bills he's got since meeting donald trump. but the reality is, there's nothing donald trump can no longer do for them. i have to imagine, as it plays out today, david shaffer is taking it to a court, saying that the president's lawyers are the ones that fed him the working order how fake electors and other folks trying to point fingers. nobody is pointing to the actual facts. nobody is opening up sidney powell's folder and showing how the election was rigged. we're 2 1/2 years into this and i have yet to have a single person show me why the election was rigged. >> that was what the courts what are entertaining the arguments in the first instance were demanding. they didn't get it. we were talking about being promised to have it conclusive evidence that is just not there. it has legs, nonetheless. that's part of the conversation undoubtedly at the debate and going forward. nice to talk to you, jeff duncan. thank you so much. >> thank you. you know, we're actually just now a few hours away from the first debate in the republican primary season in wisconsin. donald trump says that he's not going. so, the real question is, if in fact he does not attend, which he says he won't, who stands to benefit the most from his absence? 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>> trump hangs over this debate and is with us in spirit, regardless of his attendance. he's the central issue in this republican primary. it's not really his fault. the other candidates who have made him the central issue in this republican primary. he will be a topic of discussion if he is not there. we don't expect a last minute cannonball into the pool. but he's still going to be a topic of discussion, something all the other candidates are going to have to talk about. he, him, his person, his issues are the central issue of this republican primary. >> interestingly enough, some might say he is not showing up because he doesn't have to answer to anyone on the stage. it made it easier for him to not show up and appear because he's not going to get a hostile crowd. maybe, of course, christie and hutchinson, to name a few. let's say he does show up. who suffers the most with him being present? >> everybody on the stage. he will block out the sun. something occurred to me tonight, thinking about why he's not going to be there. obviously, a political consideration that he's making. and i've worked for presidents running for re-election. obviously, he's not running for -- technically he's running for re-election, having lost the last one. they never want to debate. they think it's beneath them. that's a political calculation. and also, his lawyers breathed a big sigh of relief. think about this. we have two former prosecutors on that stage, in chris christie and asa hutchinson. and you can bet they would be serving him volleys on the legal cases. and we know trump is inclined to talk about things that he's not allowed to talk about legally. i'll bet his lawyers are very happy he's not going to be on the stage, not considering his political consultants think. but the lawyers, i'm sure, are happy. >> consider that one moment, and the attorneys with competing conv coentions. molly, you have a cover story for "time." the actual -- the cover and the rollercoaster of it, really interesting to look at it. s suarez and the others on the stage. just a few days before the first republican presidential debate, he is not planning to show up. why should he? he is running away with this thing, as rivals flounder and leap to his defense after each successive criminal indictment. so, i wonder, are all of these troubles going to dominate the conversation? and if they are, is the litmus test of loyalty and how one addresses it, weaponization-wise, or pardoning, outside of the state context, is that the central issue that will take a lot of space here? >> that's a really good question. a lot of it is up to the moderators, of course. they get to decide what the candidates talk about to a certain extent. they talk about what they want to talk about. to this point, what voters have wanted to hear about, a lot of it is trump. and that is why these candidates have ended up in the place they have. they are trying to meet republican voters where they are. and republican-based voters very much want to hear this message reenforced about loyalty to trump. and so, when -- thank you for the plug of my article. it's a good summation -- a snapshot where the race is at this point. and it's true. trump has barely lifted a muss until this current run for president and is very much running away with this thing. and a lot of it is because everyone else has been defending him. they have been the ones who stepped up and have talked about trump because they know it's what the voters want to hear about. when they talk about him it's been to defend him. it will be interesting to hear if this is a turning point in the campaign, if these other candidates see this as an opportunity to change the conversation, turn the conversation to something else, change the subject, or if they are still going to be talk ing about what it is that they think voters wanted to hear because to this point, what they have thought voters wanted to hear was a pro-trump message, a message about, you know, trump's victimization, rather than a message about, you know, trump's guilt. >> mark, people are often -- obviously visual. in a debate, no exception. and fox has now released the podium lineup. and here's a bingo card you might not have had, six months ago, three months ago. center stage is governor ron desantis and swami. what do you make of where everyone is standing? >> well, that's interesting. the net of this is everybody on that stage understands, this is the first, best and maybe last opportunity to make an impression and change the equation. the fact that desantis and ron, it's not a college debate. it's how you perform against expectations. people don't know him. they're unfamiliar with him. he is doing well in the polls because he's running a media campaign. but expectations are low. people don't expect much from him. he is confident. he is good on stage. good in front of a camera. ron desantis has high expectations. he was supposed to be the giant killer and hasn't gotten all of the track he was supposed to. but the expectations is high. >> someone to the left of me, someone to the right. here i am, stuck in the middle with you. there's room for everyone. mark mckinnon, molly wall, thank you very much. you may know elon musk controls "x" known as twitter not too long ago and tesla and space-x and star link. what you might not know is how much your government relies on him and his technology. it's all been raised in this explosive new expose. we'll get right into it next. good thing there's resolve. love the love. resolve the mess. bother the bugs. not your family. ahh! zevo is made with essential oils which attack bugs' biological systems. it wipes cleanly, plus is safe for use around people and pets. gotcha! zevo. people-friendly. bug-deadly. what comes to mind when you think of elon musk? and for many, of course, he's the owner of "x" formerly known as twitter. that's really the tip of the iceberg. really his most recent venture. he has tesla, spacecraft, and rocket manufacturer space-x, and broadband internet system starlink. his a.i. company, xai. he is known for his erratic behavior. this has the u.s. government nervous. the u.s. has grown overly reliant on musk's technology, putting them at the mercy of his impulsive behavior. starlink is used to support critical communications on the front lines of the car. according to new yorkers ronan farrow, one pentagon official said he had spoken personally with vladimir putin. farrow appeared on cnn tonight and detailed musk's critical role in ukraine. the facts that elon musk has a set of satellites named starlink were a god send. and those didn't think of the outset of the fact that elon musk was going to have so much control. and what we found as that conflict ground on is he really was able to flip a switch and used geofencing. and cordoned off where russia didn't want troops advancing. his role became very political very fast. >> want to bring in cnn media analyst sara fisher. "the new yorker" article goes into great details about this reliance and the big question people have. whertharticle talks about the degree of dependency that the u.s. has on musk. are we in too deep here? >> we're in an unprecedented situation. typically, the u.s. government is not the go-between between an allied force of ukraine and the nato ally and a private u.s. citizen. we never really experienced that type of situation before. the starlink example is critical. and puts the u.s. in its biggest bind as it pertains to this go-between role. there's other situations where musk has forced the government to take action on things related to technology. you think of driverless vehicles. the biden administration had to twist the arm of elon musk and giving him the action credits to ensure that the tesla charging stations would be applicable to other vehicles. you can see a lot of examples where the government had to play ball with elon musk. we never had a private citizen in that -- holding that much power over our government. >> musk has capitalized on a lot of markets that are warrant to the economy, to the country. we don't have the comparable or core corresponding regulation. did it go too far, because we're relying overtly on one person? >> you look at the u.s. government in the past couple decades, very little has been done to support critical infrastructure. that includes critical infrastructure to support national security goals. you think of elon musk being the one to step in to provide this critical communication vehicle, starlink, that could be thought of as the u.s. government not doing enough to step up and play its roll. same thing again for awe top mouse vehicles. even space. elon musk advancing the u.s. space agenda there. the u.s. government is at its own fault here. they have not done enough. we have not done enough as a nation to put us in a position where we would have more leverage of an individual entrepreneur like this. >> a catch-22 over all of this. sara fisher, thank you so much. >> thank you. you know, i have a question for you -- have you -- you probably have. it's number one now. have you heard of this song? ♪ it struck a chord with many conservatives. it's at the tippy top of the billboard singles chart. i'll tell you how it got there next. baby, only on game nights. you know you are retired right? am i? ya! save 50% on the sleep number® limited edition smart bed. plus, 60-month financing on all smart beds. shop now only at sleep number®. hi, i'm jason. i've lost 228 pounds on golo. so when my doctor told me i needed weight loss surgery, i knew i had to make a change. golo's helped me transition to a healthier, sustainable lifestyle. i'm so surprised just how crazy my metabolism has fired up. i have a trust in golo 'cause i know it works. golo isn't like every other program out there, and i'm living proof of it. 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