rudy giuliani. plus the stage has been set for tomorrow night's first republican presidential debate. without donald trump and without one of our guests tonight, who is not happy about it. and about last night. someone who will be on that stage, vivek ramaswamy, said his comments on 9/11 were misquoted. well, we now have the tape. i'm kaitlan collins, and this is "the source." good evening. we start with breaking news on rudy giuliani and when he plans to surrender in georgia. it has been basically a revolving door of lawyers and defendants at the fulton county jail today in one of the most closely watched cases in the nation. two of trump's co-defendants in the efforts to overturn the election in georgia surrendered today. several more agreed to bond deals, bringing the deal there to about a dozen. one of them is a bail bondsman. yes, a bail bondsman, scott hall. he turned himself in today. along with trump ally and lawyer john eastman, who as you may remember pleaded the fifth to the january 6th congressional committee. but he said this outside the jail today standing next to his own attorney. >> i'm here today to surrender to an indictment that should never have been brought. i am confident that when the law is faithfully applied in this proceeding all of my co-defendants and i will be fully vindicated. >> do you still think the election was stolen? >> absolutely. >> absolutely? still? >> no question. no question in my mind. >> no question in his mind. meanwhile, we have new reporting tonight on who has been helping rudy giuliani, and it happens to be an unindicted co-conspirator in this case who i should note is also not an attorney. he is the former new york police commissioner, bernie kerik. this may not come as a surprise to you if you've been following our exclusive reporting that we brought you here on "the source" last week regarding how giuliani went to mar-a-lago on what appeared to be a fruitless mission a few months ago to ask trump to help pay for his legal bills, something that didn't work out. we have even more news on giuliani tonight. for that i want to go to cnn's paula reid, who is believe outside the fulton county jail. paula, you have this breaking news on rudy giuliani. we have not seen him yet at the courthouse. what are you hearing from your sources? >> reporter: well, we expect we could see him tomorrow, kaitlan, because we have learned that giuliani is scheduled to meet with the district attorney here in fulton county tomorrow. our colleague zach cohen and i have learned that giuliani will travel here to georgia tomorrow with bernie kerik. now, he's of course the former new york police commissioner. he is not a lawyer. he is also an unindicted co-conspirator in this case. but he's a long-time friend of rudy giuliani's and he's been helping him try to find a lawyer, something that has proven challenging given giuliani's seven-figure legal bills that remain unpaid. what does appear is at this point they have been able to find an attorney with a georgia license who is at least willing and expected to help them tomorrow with the bond part of this procedure, and it's unclear, though, if this individual will be representing giuliani throughout this case. now, i am also told that giuliani would like to negotiate his bond and enter his surrender all before former president trump shows up here in georgia on thursday. as you and i reported, kaitlan, giuliani went to the former president pleading for help with his legal bills and as of now he's only received a small portion of what he owes. and that of course wasn't from the former president but from a political action committee affiliated with the former president. >> so even though he's showing up tomorrow as you're hearing, it's not even clear if he's got a full-time attorney in this case yet, is that right? >> that's right. we know that he needs a georgia attorney, someone licensed in this state, to help him with the bond paperwork, to sign that. it does appear that they have someone who's agreed to do that, but at this point it's unclear if that individual is willing to represent giuliani throughout this case. again, it's unclear if he can even pay an attorney at this point, which is part of why bernie kerik has agreed pro bono to help his old friend, try to help him through this process find somebody who would at least get him through this initial step. because remember, he has a deadline of friday at noon or he could potentially be detained. >> mark meadows also has that noon friday deadline just like everyone else, and to show up or risk being arrested. but now he is trying not to show up on friday. what is the argument that he's making and what's the sense of whether or not he's going to be successful in delaying that? >> reporter: that's right, kaitlan. he doesn't think he should have that deadline because right now he's trying to get his state case removed to federal court where he believes he will be successful in getting it dismissed. and he says, look, while that is heang on that question on monday, so while that is all pending he says he should not be subject to this requirement to turn himself in and to surrender. it's unclear, kaitlan, if he's going to be successful. we know that a former justice department official, jeffrey clark, is also making an attempt to do this exact same thing. and at this point it's just unclear. but look, while this works itself out the d.a. has until tomorrow to respond, he likely if he has to surrender wouldn't do so until friday, until we havee y on what the federal courts think of this request. >> paula reid, great reporting. thank you. and of course i should note no one who has been charged in fulton county in this case has yet to set foot actually in a courtroom, but we are already seeing some of the very distinct game plans that are taking shape in terms of the defendants' legal strategies and what those could look like. let's put this in football terms. mark meadows that paula just mentioned there and jeffrey clark are trying to run what is known as an end-around by basically wanting to move their cases to a federal court and out of state court. that's in hopes of ultimately getting it dismissed. john eastman, meanwhile, that you just heard from outside the courthouse is calling basically for a fair catch by waving this off as just performing his ethical duty as an attorney. meanwhile, former georgia republican party chair david shafer, he's looking for blockers, claiming he was just acting at the direction of then president donald trump. i'm joined now by a pair of former federal prosecutors who between them were part of the watergate and january 6th investigations on capitol hill, nick akerman and tim dahio agago williams. with meadows and jeffrey clark both trying to make this push from state court to federal court, we know what their end game is, but if they're successful does that mean the entire case could potentially move there? >> you would only move those particular defendants who asked for removal. so for example, if the court allowed for mark meadows or jeffrey clark to be removed to federal court, the remaining defendants would stay. one thing i would note that jeffrey clark could be looking to do is not necessarily aim for dismissal but it's for separation because if jeffrey clark moves his case to federal court he could have a trial by himself, which i think would dilute some of the power of the rico case that fani willis has put together because she might not be telling the whole story, she's telling just the jeffrey clark story and that might be less powerful. >> that's really interesting because it wouldn't be the entire enterprise, as she has basically framed it. >> exactly. it would be perhaps a limited scope of evidence, which i think a jury might not find as compelling as one where president trump sits at the top and you have this sprawling enterprise. >> seeing the big picture. and nick, what do you make of what you heard from paula there? rudy giuliani, he's expected to go tomorrow. he wants to do the bond and turn himself in all in one day. but it's not even clear that he has an actual full-time attorney in this case. >> no. and i don't think he's going to be able to get one very easily. he has to be able to pay a lot of money up front to some attorney to represent him in this case. i think he's looking at a minimum of $500,000 to $700,000 up-front retainer to whoever is going to take this case. it's a very serious case. it's going to go on for a very long period of time. and nobody's going to want to be the last victim in the crime wave here. i mean, they don't want to be stuck with a major bill just like donald trump has stuck person after person, lawyer after lawyer in legal bills. >> and he already has a major bill. it's already at seven figures is what we're hearing from sources who are telling us about those efforts to get trump to pay for his bills. we've also -- go ahead. >> i was going to say why this is significant is because fani willis started out with a similar rico case against the atlanta school system with 35 defendants, whittled it down. finally there were nine that went to trial. a lot of the people here are not going to be able to afford lawyers. they're going to have to make a deal. and i think you're going to see a lot of these people drop out over the next six months. that's going to be the next big thing that happens in this case. >> it really runs the gamut here of we've got a retired public school teacher who has a gofundme for her legal bills. we've got john eastman on the other side that we saw today, and he's making this argument that, you know, this was just zealous advocacy on behalf of his client. but when does it go from your being an advocate for your client, donald trump here, to potential criminal liability? >> i think when you form criminal intent. and the january 6th committee has already uncovered evidence that's now public that showed that john eastman himself took issue or at least expressed doubt as to the legality of the very plan that he was the architect of. so being a lawyer is not immunity and does not allow you to commit crimes because you happen to have your bar card in your wallet. so i think that defense here he has is not going to go very far. >> just on a personal note, i mean, given that you worked on the january 6th investigation, what goes through your mind when you see him on camera today saying he still thinks the election is lost? or was stolen, i should say. >> i think one thing that's always i think troubled me personally is trying to get into the mind of the architects of these schemes. whether they deep down really believe what they're saying. because i think again and again the evidence has demonstrated there was no fraud that impacted the outcome of the election. and when folks like john eastman who have seen the lack of evidence, who have had 2 1/2 years to put up or shut up and are still saying they think the election was stolen, it starts to make me question honestly their perception of reality. >> is that key to his defense, though? >> well, his defense is for naught here. there is an e-mail dated december 31st, 2020, where he basically says that donald trump is going to have to file a false affidavit with the federal action that was going to be filed that very day, which donald trump did. so he knew that all of these allegations were false. trump knew they were false and he said they were. and that's all admissible against donald trump as a statement in furtherance of the conspiracy. it's admissible against eastman. so this whole idea that he is mr. innocent is totally out the window. and i might also add this motion that they made is going to get blocked and tackled at the federal court because what they've got to show is that they were acting in the course of their duties as a public official, and it's certainly not in the course of their duties to interfere in a state election process and try and throw an election to donald trump that was won by joe biden. that is not something that the federal court is going to view. >> it kind of seems like we're seeing the tensions which could be magnified of these 19 co-defendants turning on one another potentially. jenna ellis is one of the figures here who's indicted. she's a former trump attorney. she has been complaining that they are not paying her legal fees, and she agreed to a $100,000 bond today. i just want to remind people of who this person is. she was one of the biggest pusher of trump's election lies. this is, for example, things she was saying around the election. >> this is an elite strike force team that is working on behalf of the president and the campaign to make sure that our constitution is protected. we are a nation of rules, not a nation of rulers. there is not someone that just gets to pick who the next president is outside the will of the american people. >> the elite strike force is rudy giuliani, indicted, and sidney powell, the people who are standing around her. is that someone we could see turn on trump theoretically in a case like this? >> i don't see any reason why not. this is how these big cases often go. everyone starts out strong, determined that they're going to stand strong. and as time goes on, as costs go on, as they feel the pressure and the prospect of actual prison time becomes more and more real, people start to break. and i think here frankly it's happening quite fast. we just got an indictment here and you see the defendants already in a sense publicly turning on each other. that's only going to speed up and grow as this case goes on and on. >> don't forget, jenna ellis has only raised $3,000 on the internet. i mean, that is just a mere pittance. it's not even going to -- >> how much does that even pay for a legal fee in a rico case? >> almost nothing. maybe for the meals that the lawyer's going to have to incur when he's going to and from court. i mean, that is just a joke. she needs hundreds of thousands of dollars, not $2,000. >> nick achorman, temidayo aganga-williams, thank you for being here. >> thank you. the stage is set for tomorrow's first presidential republican debate. trump is not going to be there, as we know, but neither will my next guest, will hurd, who is now lashing ing out at the republican national committee over what he says is an unacceptable process for who gets on that stage. plus someone who will be on that stage who was adamant last night here on "the source," vivek ramaswamy saying he was misquoted in a story by "the atlantic" on a 9/11 conspiracy. >> you told me that your quote is wrong here because it says how many federal agents were on the plane when it hit the twin towers. >> when i actually -- this is just lifting the curtain on how media works again. i asked that reporter to send the recording because it was on the record. he refused to do it. >> now they've published that recording. we'll play it for you next. we never just see the numbers, we see the people. my dad started trek in a red barn in waterloo, wisconsin. and now itpans the globe. you wanna take what was given to you and you wanna build it. anyou wanna pass it along. if i can do that, i would have done well. that's why we're here... to help make it happen. we're here today to set the record straight about dupuytren's contracture. surgery is not your only treatment option. people may think their contracture has to be severe to be treated, but it doesn't. visit findahandspecialist.com today to get started. meet the future. a chef. a designer. and, ooh, an engineer. all learning to save and spend their money with chase. the chef's cooking up firsts with her new debit card. hungry? -uhuh. the designer's eyeing sequins. uh no plaid. while mom is eyeing his spending. nice. and the engineer? she's taking control with her own account for college. three futures, all with chase. freedom for kids. control for parents. one bank for both. chase. make more of what's yours. that's my husband... it's the inspire implant. he's not struggling with cpap anymore. all that rest is working wonders for him. inspire. learn more and view important safety information at inspiresleep.com. we now know what the stage will look like and who will be standing where tomorrow night at the first republican primary debate happening in milwaukee. eight republican candidates have qualified. that's according to the republican national committee. florida governor ron desantis and entrepreneur vivek ramaswamy will be center stage right there. one person who won't be on that stage tomorrow night is former president donald trump. he posted today instead saying, "i will be very busy tomorrow night. enjoy." i want to get straight to the source with republican presidential candidate and former texas congressman will hurd, who is also not going to be on that stage tomorrow night. you were pretty confident you were going to make it. what happened? >> well, eight national polls, eight state polls that had us meeting the requirement, and some of them were cherry-picked. one, for example, in essence was rnc said it had too many democrats and independents in the poll. and i'm shocked. i'm like, aren't we trying to grow the party? that should be something we should be encouraging. and i think this is one example of goowhy the rnc and why the g hasn't won a nationwide popular election in over 20 years. >> because basically they argued the polls needed to have a certain amount of likely republican voters. >> absolutely. and i believe, and most people would believe that anybody who would be willing to vote for a republican is a likely republican voter. and that's how we're going to grow the party and that's how we're going to beat joe biden in november. that's how i continue to win as a black republican at 72% latino district. and look, the decision is made. you know, we tried to articulate why we should have been on there. we're moving on. but here's some good news. i'm tied in new hampshire with nikki haley and mike pence. the former vp, former u.n. ambassador, both of them have been in the race much longer than i have. i got to the 40,000 threshold and probably will get to the 50,000 threshold by the end of the week. so if folks still want to help, hurdforamerica.com and at least invest $1 to help us hit those goals. so we're growing, we're moving, and what we're learning is people want someone who's not afraid of donald trump and who's articulated a vision on the future and who also recognizes that 9/11 was real and wasn't a hoax. right? that's if i was on the debate vivek and i would have had some issues with that, especially when you think about the 3,000 people that died on that day and the thousands that were injured. it's just unacceptable. >> i want to get to that. but you're saying in this race is what you're telling me right now. >> absolutely. we have the resources. we have momentum. people are excited. a lot of our supporters are upset about what happened and we're going to drive on. and so we're undeterred. this is not going to stop us. because the stakes are too high for us not to -- for us to stop. and so we're going to continue, and people want someone who recognizes that we need to have unprecedented peace at a time there is the chinese government trying to surpass us as a global superpower, where we have to have a thriving economy when new technologies like ai's going to impact everyone. our kids need a world-class education. these are the issues that people talk about and ask me when i'm crisscrossing the country. and look, iowa's another example. people talk about how i went there and i spoke the truth and i said donald trump's running to stay out of prison. >> you got booed. >> we got booed. but guess what? we went back and we got cheered. and so you know, the "des moines register" headline was "from jeers to cheers," right? so we're moving in the right direction. i'm excited. and we're going to press on. >> and you said at that moment whenever you've said donald trump is running to stay out of prison in your view, you said it's the truth-u need to hear it. what do you think does need to be asked on that stage tomorrow night? >> look, i think what needs to be asked is how are people going to manage a complicated economy when you have artificial intelligence, quantum computing, synthetic biology? today we can program dna like we can program computer code. we have to be prepared for that. how are we going to make sure that we rebuild our alliances to take on this threat of china? how are we going to repair our relationship with mexico? the bilateral relationship between the united states and mexico is the worst it's ever been. that's important for us to deal with this humanitarian crisis we're dealing with right now. if we want to treat human traffickers and human smugglers and drug trafficking organizations like terrorist organizations, then we have to cooperate with the mexican government and the governments throughout latin america. these are some of the questions that need to be asked on the debate. and also people have got to explain, was 2020 lost? right? and the reality is it was. donald trump lost the 2020 election. it was not stolen. he was incapable of growing the republican brand amongst the largest growing groups of voters. and if we don't recognize that and if the person who's the gop nominee doesn't recognize that then we are giving four more years to joe biden, and that's unacceptable and america deserves better. >> you mentioned vivek ramaswamy. he once said it would be an embarrassment and uncourageous for trump to not show up to the debates. last night he said he's fine with trump skipping some of them but coming to some others. why do you think donald trump is not going to the debate tomorrow night? >> well, donald trump's not going to the debate tomorrow night because he doesn't want to have to defend his record of losing. donald trump has not won an election since 2016. he lost the house in 2018. he lost the senate and the white house in 2020. and he prevented a red wave from coming in in 2022. he doesn't want to have to answer that. he doesn't want to have to answer to the fact that all of his legal problems are self-inflicted. when you know you have classified documents, we're not debating whether or not he had classified documents. turn them back in. why are you hiding? were you trying to keep them? what did you do to protect that information that you knew you had in your possession? you lost the 2020 election. don't call a state official and say hey, find me votes and get someone to break the law when you knowingly knew you were asking him to break the law. don't do those things and we wouldn't be in this position. and then guess what, we could be talking about hunter biden. we could be talking about the fact that the president gave $6 billion to the iranian government to try to get some of our americans back but we didn't actually get them back. this is the problem with the baggage around donald trump. and guess what. no one's going to be paying attention about the debate on thursday because everybody is going to be focused on what's happening in georgia. >> what about -- what do you make of the timing of trump turning himself in 24 hours after the debate? >> of course he's trying to take all the air out of the sails of anything that's happening on that debate stage. and the rnc should be upset by that. the rnc should be angry that donald trump asked for all of these provisions to happen. he wanted everybody to bend the knee to him and then he's not going to sign the pledge, he's not going to participate in the debates? that's a complete smack in the face. and folks should be angry and upset by that. >> and you just mentioned vivek ramaswamy. we had him on last night asking about these questions, comments he's made twice now on 9/11, gave him a chance to explain himself. what would you say to him about those comments if you were on stage with him tomorrow night? >> i would say vivek, here's the truth. 9/11 happened and it killed 3,000 americans on that day. and anybody who is running for president of the united states should recognize that and defend our nation against potential attacks like that. and using this issue as a way to try to get clicks is just completely unacceptable. >> will hurd, you won't be on the debate stage tomorrow night but you say you are staying in the race. thank you for joining me tonight. >> of course. >> and up next we'll go back to georgia, where some republican lawmakers are finding new ways to go after the district attorney, fani willis. our next guest has insight into how they are trying to do that using a new law that was championed by governor brian kemp. my cpa told me i wouldn't qualify for the erc tax refund, so i called innovation refunds. their team of independent tax attorneys will work with your cpa to determine if your company is eligible. 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do you think it's going -- could it work? >> well, i'm glad to be with you. i really think this is just an effort to get some press by a young senator from the north georgia area. he shares the area with a certain representative from the state who likes to sort of throw some bombs like this. this is going nowhere. there is a law now on the books that the republicans passed and the republican governor signed that creates an independent commission to look at prosecutors' duties. and interestingly enough, the law requires actually prosecutors to consider every case for which there is probable cause. well, the grand jury in the trump case has determined by issuing the indictment that there is in fact probable cause to move to trial. so sort of the nonsense rhetoric that we're hearing in this request for a special session because this particular senator doesn't like fani willis's decision to move forward, well, she is in fact bound by the new law that the republican legislature passed to move forward with the case. and so this is just an effort to make noise. >> essentially what you're saying here is what they're trying to do is the opposite -- it goes basically completely against what this new law actually states that prosecutors in the state must do, is that right? >> yeah. i'm saying the hunter got caught by his own trap in this case. so the law requires the district attorney in this case to consider the charges and moving forward. it's clear on its face. i mean, what's interesting is the constitution of the state of georgia sets out the formation and the creation of the district attorneys and the voters elect those in each judicial district. this is an interesting time when the republicans have decided that they think that they know better than the voters of the district so, they should be able to come in and change the person who won that election. who does that sound like? again, this was a political stunt. it's a political stunt now. it's going nowhere. there are some district attorneys in the state who have brought suit claiming that in fact this violates the duties that they have under the constitution as well as their first amendment protections. and is backlash i guess for some effort by the district attorneys to look at classifications of crimes and make decisions on whether or not they're going to move forward. which is clearly within their discretion. i think what we're hearing now about the trump case and fani willis is just noise. i think it's interesting how it's all come back to roost. >> does it go anywhere at all? you say you don't think it ultimately will be successful. but can they start the proceedings? i mean, what could this actually look like in october? >> i don't think there's a chance in the world they'll have a special session about this. you know, if they want to make a complaint to the body of the prosecuting attorneys council and the governor's office and ask there be a commission to look into it, i'm sure he could write a letter and have something initiated like that if you want to call it a start to it. but i just don't see it moving anywhere at all. i don't think it's going to have any effect at all on the timing of the case. i don't think it's going to be an impediment to moving forward. i think there are plenty of other obstacles that we've talked about that may come into play there with appellate courts and things like that. but this effort to have the district attorney removed i think is a non-starter. again, it's an effort that the republicans made to try to campaign on sort of an anti-crime move forward and they pushed this bill through. and now this is the outcome. >> what do you make of trump -- i mean, he's going after brian kemp saying he's blocking the impeachment of fani willis. i mean, it seems like a lot of it has to do with what appetite republicans in the state can do with that. >> i'm not surprised to see some of the shots back against kemp or other people in this case, and i certainly don't think that the district attorney is particularly bothered or certainly not immune from these kind of shots back from a defendant in a case. this happens from time to time. the question is whether or not the republicans will get on board. you saw this -- frankly, if you think about back at the time of the impeachment after january the 6th, you know, you had folks who were sort of hiding under their desk and counting on the police to protect them from the mob and then when it came time for impeachment they didn't have the courage to vote for it. consciences ebb and flow and backbones seem to grow at certain times, and this is one of those instances i think when, you know, the republicans will -- right now they're circling the wagons a little bit. we'll see as this case moves forward. >> michael moore, thank you for joining me tonight. >> it's always a pleasure. thank you. >> is the world's richest man making the pentagon a little nervous? a new explosive expose that says elon musk holds growing influence over the war in ukraine and is also chatting it up with president vladimir putin. ronan farrow joins me next. after advil. feeling better? on top of the worlddddd!!! before advil. advil taets pain at the source of inflammation. when pain comes for you, co back fast with advil liqui-gels. power e*trade's award-winning trading app makes trading easier. with its customizable options chain, easy-to-use tools and paper trading to help sharpen your skills, you can stay on top of the market from wherever you are. e*trade from morgan stanley. power e*trade's easy-to-use tools make complex trading less complicated. custom scans help you find new trading opportunities, while an earnings tool helps you plan your trades and stay on top of the market. e*trade from morgan stanley. how's the chicken? the prawns are delicious. oh, i have a shellfish allergy. one prawn. very good. did i say chicken wrong? tired of people not listening to what you want? it's truffle season! ah that's okay... never enough truffles. how much are they? it's a lot. oh okay - i'm good, that - it's like a priceless piece of art. enjoy. or when they sell you what they want? yeah. the more we understand you, the better we can help you. that's what u.s. bank is for. huge relief. yeah... ♪ since the start of the war in ukraine one man has controlled the country's access to the internet, elon musk. and a new report details just how expansive the billionaire's influence really is. not just in ukraine but also inside the u.s. government. in his latest piece for the "new yorker," which he worked on for the last year, ronan farrow writes that current and former officials from nasa to the pentagon and even the faa told him that, quote, musk's influence had become inescapable in their work and several of them said they now treat him like a sort of unelected official. joining me now is the "new yorker" contributing writer ronan farrow. ronan, thank you for being here. >> it's a pleasure. thanks for having me. >> it's expansive. it's fascinating. one part that stood out, you quoted a former nasa administrator who said there's only one thing worse than a government monopoly and that is a private monopoly that the government is dependent on. how dependent is the government on elon muss snk. >> and first an interesting aside. that former nasa administrator jim bradenstein, who is a trump appointee, a former pretty far right congressman, someone who's very free market in his general disposition. very interesting to have him speak so frankly about the risks of the government receding and too little regulation. he actually explicitly says if we concentrate this much power in private individuals, private companies, we may wind up with another "titanic" submersible situation but on i avaster scale. that's the threat we're talking about when we do become too behold-tone a private interest and too unable to regulate it. and the answer to your question is we are very, very beholden in multiple sectors to elon musk as a nation. >> but do other officials in the government did you also find share that skepticism? because you wrote a pentagon spokesperson said they were keeping musk's apprised of your inquiries about his role, especially in ukraine, and that they would grant an interview with an official about the matter only with his permission? >> and this came up in the pentagon press scrum today, and they've got other spokespeople flailing around saying absolutely, that's not our point of view. but that is indeed part of the gate keeping i encountered. and that's part of a real quote from a real spokesperson. and i think it's a modest reflection of a much bigger paradigm here, which is everyone in these relationships with elon musk where he provides such essential services, sometimes for the public good, sometimes in ways that benefit us. he has kick-started the space race. and now in an area that previously was going fallow we can send americans from u.s. soil into space. we don't have to rely on the russians and their launches anymore. that's big. in the electric car market obviously he has reinvented that as it currently exists. and as we try to advance green energy plans we need to work around him because he has a majority of all the electric chargers in the country. so there's good. but also in all these situations you see that dynamic of everyone is very frightened of aggravating elon musk because he can flip switches and turn off services and cause a lot of chaos and there's not always competition in all these spaces where we can turn to a fallback option. >> i mean, ukraine is the center point of that. they're scared -- it's a good thing and a bad thing. he is the reason ukraine is able to have the internet that it has. but also he is the reason that ukraine is able to have the internet that it has and he controls it. >> when russia first started bombarding ukraine last year, there was a desperate need for internet infrastructure that could survive the attacks from the russians because they were going after that critical infrastructure. and the fact that elon musk has this network of satellites and mobile satellite stations called starlink was a godsend. and the people who fund-raised for that and helped to get those units to ukraine didn't think at the outset, they told me, of the fact that elon musk was going to have so much control. and what we found as that conflict ground on is that he really was able to flip a switch and use geo-fencing, cordon off areas where for instance russia didn't want troops advancing. so his role became very political very fast. >> what did you learn about how he sees his role? i mean, does he see himself as kind of an unelected leader in the fact that he gets to play a role in those decisions? >> you know, i let elon musk's own words carry the day in terms of answering that question wherever possible. he speaks voluminously about his feelings pretty much all the time. so we don't have to speculate on this. i mean, he's been asked, are you more powerful than the united states government? and he said in some ways. do i think that he relishes these problems borne of overreliance on him? i don't get any sense of that. i think a lot of his orientation is sincerely mission driven. i think he cares about the greater good in some ways. there's also a whole lot of ego there. ultimately, some of the down sides we're talking about are about elon musk, right? they're about a person who is capricious, who is increasingly erratic, who is somewhat politically radicalized recently as we see from his presence on twitter. but a lot of these ills we're talking about are much less about elon and much more about the systems around him. this form of modern capitalism that has allowed so much concentration of wealth and power. and sometimes so few restraints on it. >> how much does that have to do with a lack of investment on the u.s. government's part, on key infrastructure, on things like this? >> i'm glad you asked that. it has everything to do with that. the situation we are in, just to take the nasa example, right now it is borne of years and years of underinvestment. an area that i think too quickly we wrote off as a subject of mere scientific exploration. and i say mere, you know, with implied air quotes because that too is important but of course the modern space race is also pivotal for national security. who has control of the satellites in orbit has intense bearing on our ability to control missiles, to control drones, to surveil enemies. so this matters. we didn't invest enough. we were relying on russians and russian launches for far too long. and what elon musk did was revolutionary in a really positive way in creating spacex. but the continued underinvestment in alternatives and in the strength of the government itself in this space has led to this tricky situation where now essentially a number of officials describe this as feeling like they're being held at gunpoint by a private individual and his outbursts and his political turns that come out of left field sometimes, talking to vladimir putin, then presenting a pro-russia peace plan on the ukraine front, these are things that the government struggles to contend with now because of those years of underinvestment. >> yeah. fascinating details. i meanwhile, i should note, musk denies speaking to putin. but obviously your reporting shows -- >> he has denied it repeatedly, and we have people, even on the record, officials in this story saying he told us that he did. and even in some cases saying that he not only boasted about talking to putin, he talked about regular consultations with the pentagon -- i'm sorry, with the kremlin. >> fascinating story. ronan farrow, thank you. >> thank you. pleasure to be here. >> and i should note "the new yorker" reached out to elon musk. he declined to respond for comment for that story. cnn has also reached out to spacex, tesla and elon musk himself on this report. we did not hear back. ahead, an update on a major denial that you heard last night on this program. a presidential candidate pushing back when i asked him about something that he was quoted as saying about 9/11. he assured me it was wrong, and this. >> i asked that reporter to send the recording because it was on the record. he refused to do it. >> well, that recording has now been published. we'll play it for you next. try to lay your hand flat against a surface. if you can't, you may have dupuytren's contntracture. talk to a hand specialist about your options, including nonsurgical treatmentsts. like ours is spoiling their dogs. good, real food is simple. it looks like food, it smells like food, it's what dogs are supposed to be eating. ♪ (vo) in one second, sara (woman) yes (vo) will get a job offer somewhere sunnier. relocating in weeks. 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