indictment. >> those indictments aren't wort the paper they're written on. >> how will he defend himself? and will he go to trial before the election? trump's attorney john loro joins in me moments. and too honest. a central figure in the new case, the former vice president ramps up his criticism of his old boss. >> the president ultimately continued to demand that i choose him over the constitution. >> what does he make of the case? gop presidential candidate mike pence is next. plus, on message. with just over two weeks until the gop debate, other candidates struggle to break through. is there a new opportunity to edge out the front-runner. gop presidential candidate chris christie joins me ahead. hello, i'm dana bash in washington, where the state of our union is watching court filings pile up. donald trump is kicking off a new week, juggling an ever-more legal calendar over his third indictment over alleged attempts to overturn the 2020 election. as usual, the former president is lashing out at the legal system and those he perceives to be his enemies. last night, he called special counsel jack smith, quote, mentally ill, and, quote, deranged. and a trump campaign adviser told cnn that the president has no plans to change his rhetoric. even as in federal court this weekend, trump's attorneys worked to respond to a filing by the justice department, which took issue with a new threatening social media post by trump. here with me now is trump attorney, john lauro. thank you so much for joining me. this week a judge rejected your request for three more days on how to handle evidence. the proposed protective order that would let use some information, but not take that information with him. would you agree to that? >> first of all, this protective order that's being suggested by the biden administration is an effort to keep from the press important non-sensitive information that the biden administration has that may speak to -- >> this isn't buy the biden administration. this is by the special independent counsel -- >> -- mr. trump. no, no, here for this reason -- no. the independent counsel, it's not independent, it's special counsel, has to get the approval of merrick garland in order to go forward. joe biden said in november of 2022 that he wanted to see president trump prosecuted and taken out of this race -- so it is the biden administration. >> i'm just going to stop you. there's no evidence that joe biden is involved in this. and you're right, it's a special counsel. let's just stick to the question. do you believe that this is something that you'll agree to? >> the point is that we will not agree to keeping information that's not sensitive from the press. the press and the american people in a campaign season have a right to know what the evidence is in this case, provided that this evidence is not protected otherwise. so we're going to oppose it, as we have. but for whatever reason, these lawyers on the prosecution team want to keep that from the press. >> won't the evidence come out in trial anyway? >> i'm shocked that the press -- >> some of it will, not all of it. i'm shocked that the press isn't lined up objecting to this protective order. not only is president trump being attacked for his first amendment rights, now these prosecutors are trying to impinge on the freedom of the press. >> i appreciate you trying to stick up for us, but let's talk about the actual -- >> i'm telling you what's going on right now. >> -- substance of what they were trying to do in the filing. which was try to make the point not some that they want to keep the discovery information. what the witnesses said for the time being quiet, but also, he made pretty clear, the special counsel that the idea that the former president is calling him deranged and mentally ill is something that maybe shouldn't be happening. so let me ask you, as his attorney in this criminal case, do you want your client to stop speaking publicly like this? using terms like that. >> this case was brought by -- this case was brought by the biden administration in the middle of a political campaign. and with the realization that people are out there campaigning for office. i'm not involved in the campaign. i'm involved in representing -- >> totally understand, you're not his campaign manager. you are his lawyer. as his lawyer, would you want a client to say things like this about the special counsel? >> one thing that we are -- one thing that we are going to do is fight this very, very unusual, outside of the bounds criminal prosecution of first amendment rights vigorously in court. my focus is on addressing the issues. one of the issues that the biden administration will have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt is that donald trump had corrupt intent, had criminal intent, when he protests the results of the 2020 election. that's core freedom of speech. that's core political speech. >> let's talk about this. you've talked about freedom of speech a lot. i want you to listen to what donald trump's own former attorney general said about that argument. >> i really don't think that's a valid argument. he can say whatever he wants. he can even lie. he can even tell people that the election was stolen when he knew better. free speech doesn't give you the right to engage in a fraudulent conspiracy. >> your response? >> first of all, there was no fraudulent conspiracy. that was part of the reality of the defense. what president trump was entitled to do and what mr. barr misses, and i'm not sure he's read all the cases, but when it comes to political speech, you cannot only advocate for a position, but you can take action, you can petition, you can ask even your vice president to pause the vote for a period of time. >> but you can't break the law, which is what this indictment alleges. it alleges that he caused actions like the proving -- >> what was -- what was -- what was it -- >> i'll tell you what the dodo indictment -- >> no, what was -- >> i'll tell you what the indictment says. the indictment says that he attempted to cause actions like approving fake electors, opening sham fraud investigations, and obstructing the certification of the election. whether he can prove that, that's going to happen in the trial. i'm just saying what's in the indictment. right. let me take the first thing, the question about electorates, okay? alternate electorates are used in every four-year cycles, okay. the senate parliamentarian acknowledged to vice president pence that they always receive protest alternate electorates. none of those electorates were counted. vice president pence was completely aware of the nature of the -- >> they weren't counted because mike pence rejected the scheme. that's why they weren't counted. >> absolutely. and that's how -- of course! and that's how the political process works. but there was defrauding -- >> no, it doesn't. >> there was no trickery, there was no deceit. >> because if mike pence had said "yes," that's exactly what would have happened. >> no. no, because thank with freedom of the press zp-- >> i don't want to go down -- >> no, you asked me a question and i hope you can let me finish, because the government alleges deceit or trickery, and all of this played out in the open. it's all free speech. there was a supreme court decision which is right on point that says when you're exercising free speech, you're not engaging in a fraud on the government. and that's what, unfortunately, most people don't understand. in that context, it's very political -- >> that's just one example of the actions in this indictment. >> absolutely, but you're entitled -- >> this is a long list that we've compiled from the indictment. there are -- it's more than a dozen, not speech, actions that the former president allegedly took. >> like what? >> where do i even start. >> like what? tell me. what actions? >> asking the arizona speaker to interfere with arizona's elections. >> asking. asking. asking is speech. >> but any alleged -- >> that's the point. asking is speech. it's not action. >> almost all alleged criminal activity has to do with using words and is speech that's -- >> what you don't -- >> no, this is obviously the defense that you're going to use and it will be fascinating to see how it works out in a court of law. i want to move on to another -- >> bno, but you're -- you make n interesting point, because you're saying that asking is action. no, asking is aspirational. asking is not action. it's core free speech. the press should be defending free speech in this case. because free speech is the most protected speech. >> let's talk about something else, and that is the former president ultimately asked his vice president only for a pause in the electoral count. >> right. that was one of the things, ultimately. the final ask -- right. the final ask in the ellipse speech was that. president trump was following the advice of his lawyer. >> okay, the word "ultimately," i've heard you use many times. the word "ultimately" is doing a lot of work in that sentence. i know you're intentionally using the word "ultimately," because at that point -- >> i use "ultimately" because it's the truth. >> you're right, it was the truth. at that point, he was asking for a pause, and it's only because -- it's only because for many, many, many other asks before that, what the former president was asking mike pence to do was to completely stop, stop it and reject it. and that is the point that mike pence is making. it's that it got to the point where he said "pause," because mike pence said, i'm not going to reject it. >> can i respond? >> sure. >> okay. okay, so what we have, and many people don't this is a memo from john eastman, an esteemed constitutional scholar laying out a number of scenarios. those scenarios were presented to vice president pence. he considered them, and as a constitutional matter, he rejected them. one of the last and the ultimate requests that president trump made was to pause the voting for ten days to allow the state to recertify or certify or audit. and mr. pence rejected that as well. after that, there was a peaceful transition of power. that's how the constitution works. >> okay, what happened on january 6th was not peaceful. i want to ask you something about john eastman, because you talked a lot about how he's a respected constitutional attorney. >> the transfer of power was certainly peaceful. >> did you see what happened on january 6th? did that look peaceful to you? >> did you -- i'm not saying that that was in any way appropriate, but the ultimately power of the presidency was transferred to mr. biden. we all know that. as you do. >> i want to ask you about john eastman said, according to this indictment, that even when he was talking to the vice president's counsel, that he thought that his plan to reject the slate of electors would be rejected by the supreme court. 9-0. >> he thought he was right. and by the way, that proposal was not the ultimate one presented to vice president pence. but what happens in the course of a constitution fall discussion like this is all legal theories are discussed and analyzed. and once again, what president trump was doing is within the reality and the realm of free speech. he's asking his vice president, what about taking this course of action. ultimately, his vice president rejected all of the proposals that were made. but what's critical -- >> one quick question before we go back to trial. one quick response. what president trump did not do is direct vice president pence to do anything. he asked him, in an aspirational way. asking is covered by the first amendment. >> and said some pretty intense stuff online that caused people to think that they needed to build gallows outside of the capitol. >> and he's not being charged for that by the way. >> by the way, that's not part of the criminal case. just to be clear. >> it is -- you're right about that. >> you can say that politically, but it's not in the case. >> would you be open to having cameras in the courtroom during this trial? >> i personally want the public to see what's going on in this country right now. i want the public to see what kind of prosecution is going on. and i want the public to see the evidence. if you ask me what my personal opinion is, the answer is absolutely, i would like to see that. what i'm concerned about is the government has already signaled that they don't want the press and the american people to see the evidence in this case, because they filed an emergency protective order to prevent that from happening. >> thank you so much, john lauro, appreciate your time this morning. >> great to see you. absolutely. he is a central figure in the new trump indictment. i'll ask former vice president mike pence about the case against his former boss and now opponent for the gop nomination. plus, the gift chris christie brought all the way to ukraine for president zelenskyy. chris christie is just back and joins us exclusively coming up. the chase ink business premier card is made for sam who makes, everyday products, designed smarter. genius! like 2.5cash back of $5,000 or more, so sam can make smart idea a brilant reality! chase for busess. make more of what's yours. for moms, from centrum. ♪ this new mom ♪ ♪ here i go ♪ ♪ i am strong and brave i know ♪ ♪ with a little time for me ♪ ♪ no doubt i will get through ♪ ♪ loving me is loving you ♪ ♪ new from centrum. the women's choice multivitamin brand. i'm a bear. i'm coming out of hibernation, and papa is hungry. and while you're hittin' the trail, i'm hitting your cooler. and your cut-rate car insurance might not pay for all this. so get allstate. feeling ughh from a backed up gut? 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>> well, you can look at the tweets and public statements that the president made, all the way up to the night before and the morning of. look, what the president was convinced it seemed to me in december that i had some right to reject or return electoral votes, even though no vice president in american history had ever asserted that right. and no vice president or any one president has ever had the right to choose the american president. the presidency belongs to the american people and the american people alone. but, look, in the days before the president was talking about us rejecting votes, then late in the process, his lawyers suggested that we return votes to the states, but frankly the day before january 6th, if memory serves, they came back, his lawyers did, and said, we want you to reject votes outright. they were asking me to overturn the election. i had no right to overturn the election. i know we did our duty that day and i couldn't be more encouraged whether it's here in new hampshire, in iowa, or all across the country how many people come up to me and express their appreciation for the stand that we took. >> i hear you talking about this and i know you've also said that you wished that there were no criminal charges that had to be filed as what happened this past week but do you ever wonder what would have happened if you would have come forward with the specifics that you were just talking about, just now. the pressure campaign that you got from the then president, from his attorneys, and talked about that in the days after january 6th. now he's really solidified his grip on your party and helped lead the party's view of his unconstitutional actions. a vast majority of republican voters think he actually won in 2020. do you wish you said what you're saying today sooner? >> i don't know, dana, i've been saying this for year. after leaving the white house and moving home to indiana, it was on the 100th day of the biden administration that i spoke about this issue. i've given countless issues and wrote an entire book telling our story now more than a year ago. but i understand that the news events of this week have caused renewed focus on this issue. and in some respects, i welcome it. not because i welcome the indictment, i had hoped it hadn't come to this. i had hoped there were questions about the president's conduct on january 6th had been left to the judgment of republican primary voters and the american people, but now that this has come, i've had people coming up to me ever since that day, and in some respects telling me that they didn't know, they didn't know what we went through, they didn't know about the stand that we took. >> exactly. and do you think if you would have said so publicly, you would have been able to influence your fellow republicans in the senate, if he was convicted in the impeachment trial, he wouldn't even be able to run for president? >> i mean, come on. come on, dana. we lived through the russia hoax, the president being impeached for a phone call, the day after january 6th, nancy pelosi tried to distort the 25th amendment to get us to remove the president. and then to go through a process of impeaching the president of the united states after he left office was just one more effort by the democrats. but look, i want to tell you. i trust myself to the judgment of the american people and to the judgment of history. i really do believe, people see through the agenda of the democrats, that partisan committee on capitol hill that i refused to have anything to do with, spoke for itself, but at the end of the day, my one aspiration as i travel here in new hampshire and everywhere around the country is for people to know that the oath i took in january 2016, i kept every single day. >> the indictment says that the former president told you that you're too honest, after you said that you didn't have the authority to reject electors. did donald trump ever acknowledge to you that he lost the election? >> i don't recall that he ever did, but with regard to being called too honest, dana, i've been called worse. and frankly, today, with people here in new hampshire, i had a lot of people coming up to my expressing their appreciation for it. and i want people to know, i'm going to be honest with them as a candidate and i'll be honest with them as a president, whether we're talking about the need for a fiscal responsibility and reform to tackle the national debt, i'll be honest with them about the dangerous world that we live in. i'll be honest with them about what it's going to take to secure our border and lower energy costs and also stand by our values and liberties. >> would you be willing to testify -- >> i'm more than happy to wear that label, but honestly, to your -- i don't recall the president ever telling me that. you know, i don't know what was in his heart, i don't know what his intentions were, but i do know what he and his lawyers asked me to do. and it's what no vice president in american history had ever done before and frankly no vice president or any one person in washington should ever do again. the presidency belongs to the american people and the american people alone. and our founders would have never vested authority in one person to overturn an election. and i stood on that principle. >> would you be willing to testify at the president's trial if the special counsel called you to do so? >> well, you know, i testified before the grand jury under a subpoena, after we got clarification from the court about protections that i have under the constitution, as the president of the senate. but i have to plans to testify, but, look, we'll always, we'll always comply with the law. but look, i want to tell you, i don't know what the path of this indictment will be. the president's entitled to presumption of innocence. he's entitled to make his defense in court. there actually are profound issues around this, pertaining to the first amendment, freedom of speech and the rest. i'm confident that he and his lawyers will litigate all of those things. but what i want the american people to know is that president trump was wrong then and he's wrong now. that i had no right to overturn the election. i had no right to reject or return votes. and by god's grace, i did my duty under the constitution of the united states, and i always will. >> you have said before, you said again, just a few minutes ago, that anyone who puts themselves over the constitution should never be president. if he is the nominee, could you support him? >> well, dana, you guys like to talk about the polls a lot on cnn, everybody does. but it's awful early here. we're about six months away from iowa and after that new hampshire. and i've got to tell you. i really do believe that there's a lot of republicans that know that we not only need new leadership in the white house, but we need new leadership in the republican party. i mean, we can't endure four more years of the failed and feckless leadership of president biden and the democrats in the senate. we've got to turn this thing around. and every where i go, more and more people are coming up, more people are understanding of the stand we took that day and the minority of republicans who have had a different view of what i did that day have been coming to me and -- >> so does that mean that you can rule out -- >> i've got to tell you, everywhere i go, people are telling me, thank you for talking about the issues we're dealing with. and not what the media is talking about any given day of the week. >> you can say right here that you will rule out voting for donald trump again for president? >> dana, i will tell you, i don't think we'll have to make that decision. i'm confident i'll be able to support the republican nominee, especially if it's me. but i will tell you, i'm confident, as they've done so many times before, republican primary voters are going to choose new leadership for a new time in the life of our nation, we've got to move our country forward, win back the senate, k turn this economy around. >> i know you are unveiling a new energy policy this week. the european union says that july has been the hottest month in recorded history. tens of millions of americans are constantly under heat warnings. you've seen the wildfires making the air unsafe to breathe. all of this is expected to get worse in the coming years due to the climate crisis. do you think that human activity is the primary reason behind all of this? >> well, with i don't know. it's clear from scientists over the next hundred years that the climate is changing. but frankly, you talk about our european partners, we got out of the paris climate accord and nobody really noticed, we actually exceeded the goals in the paris climate accord by receding co2, but did it by american innovation. the energy plan will be all of the above energy strategy. joe biden declared war on energy in his first day in office, shutting down the keystone and dakota pipelines. gasoline prices are jumping back up again this week. we had $2 a gallon gas under our administration and we achieved energy independence. we can do it again. whatever the news of the day is, just like last week, this coming week we're going to lay out a plan to restore american energy independence, and i believe through diversification in energy, web practice conservation on our land. we had the cleanest air, water, and land in the history of the country during our administration. we can beat the goals in our environment without crippling the american economy. >> and i'm sure you remember the very first sentence in the 2018 report from your trump/pence administration said that the earth's climate is now changing faster than at any point in history and went on to say it was primarily because of -- or the result of human activities. i look forward to seeing your report this week. we'll see you on the debate stage. it sounds like you're getting closer to getting those 40,000 unique donors? >> dana, we're getting closer every day. people are going to mike pence 2024.com, even contributing $1 just to make sure that the most experienced and most proven conservative on this race is on the stage. i'm confident we'll be there and i'm looking forward to it. >> former vice president mike pence, thank you so much for joining me. appreciate it. >> thank you, dana. >> chris christie just got back from a surprise trip to ukraine. we'll talk to him about that and get his first comments on the new trump indictment when he joins me exclusively next. designed smarter. genius! like 2.5% cash back on purchases of $5,000 or more, so sam can make smart ideas, a brilliant reality! chase for business. make more of what's yours. new emergen-c crystals pop and fizz when you throw them back. and who doesn't love a good throwback? 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[laughs] nailed it again! keep up the good work! for great checkups, crest has you covered because crest pro-health protects 100% of your mouth for 24 hours. look, ma! no cavities! crest. ♪ ♪ we're reinventing our network... ...with smarter, more efficient routes... ...so you can deliver more value to your customers. fast. reliable. perfectly orchestrated. the united states postal service. welcome back to "state of the union." while the political world was focused on donald trump's legal woes, one of his competitors was secretly on an overnight train in kyiv, where he met with ukrainian president zelenskyy and visited cities decimated by russia's war. here with me now is former new jersey governor and presidential candidate, chris christie. thank you so much for joining me this morning. i want to get to your trip to ukraine in a minute. but first, you just heard the former president's lawyer criticize the doj over this indictment about his efforts to overturn the 2020 election. he said, all trump did was exercise his free speech and follow the advice from his own lawyers. what's your response to that? >> look, obviously, a federal grand jury in the district of columbia disagrees and they returned an indictment. now, you know, what we see from donald trump is what we always see from donald trump, insulting anybody who raises any questions about his conduct on january 6th. when he invited people to come to washington and told them it was going to be wild. then spoke before them, told them the election had been stolen, which was a lie. that he had continued from election night forward. then he told them that mike pence could overturn the election, only mike pence could do it. and that if he didn't do it, he would be a major disappointment. asked them then to march up to capitol hill, to stop what was going on up there. said he would march with them, but as i told you, i knew if donald trump had a risk of breaking a fingernail, he's such a coward that he wouldn't go up to capitol hill. so he went back to the safety of the white house and sent those folks up there to do what they did, which was to create many of them a violent conduct up on capitol hill. >> so you don't think it's speech. you think it's conduct. >> -- to stop what's going on and confirm the election. it's very clearly conduct. there may be parts of it that were speech, too, dana. nothing's ever absolute. but the fact of the matter is, the president wanted what happened to happen, and in fact, the way to know that is that when it started to happen, he did not run out of the white house and say, put me in front of the cameras. let me tell those people, stop being violent up there! we shouldn't do it. no, he didn't do that, he sat and ate his overdone hamburger in the white house dining room he has off the oval office and enjoyed watching what was going on. he told speaker mccarthy that maybe that those people care more about the fact that the election was stolen than you do. does that somebody that was concerned about anything other than keeping himself in power? look, the bigger lie now is that donald trump says he's doing this for us. yet if you listen to everything you've had to say, is he talking about what joe biden's inflation has done to the american people. is he talking about what the energy crisis that joe biden created has done to the price of gasoline and what's going on all across this world due to the fight for energy. is he talking about the crime in the streets, dana, and how that's affecting citizens of every one of our major cities. no, he's just talking about himself. i want republican voters to know, this is a preview of the election coming up if donald trump is the nominee. he'll be talking about donald trump rather than joe biden. and what we should be focused on is talking about joe biden and his record, and that's why he cannot be the nominee. >> i want to move on to ukraine. but real quick, do you think that in washington, d.c., a place that joe biden won by almost 90 percentage points in 2020, donald trump can get a fair trial? >> dana, unlike anybody else in this race, i actually did this for seven years as the u.s. attorney in the fifth largest office in the country. in new jersey, which is a very blue state. and i could tell you, i watched as jurors put aside any of their partisanship or politics and listened to the evidence and returned in my state fair and just verdicts, 130 of them in political corruption cases that we did without a defeat. and never was one of them overturned on appeal during my seven years. >> so, yes. >> so my view is, yeah, i believe jurors can be fair. i believe in the american people. and i believe in the fact that jurors will listen fairly and comparably. and for people who say they won't, dana, those are people who believe only in themselves, like donald trump and not the american people. >> let's talk about your trip to k ukraine. you are the second republican candidate to visit. you met with president zelenskyy in kyiv. you paid your respect to civilians killed in bucha. and you said you would come back and tell everyone what you saw. what do you want the american people and people around the world to know? >> i want them to know about the atrocities that were being and are being committed against the free ukrainian people by the russian military. i went to the town of bucha, wh where, i went to a shallow grave of 160 civilians. but before they were executed, a lot of them, their eyes were gouged out, their ears were cut off, and their hands were tied behind their backs and smhot in the back of the head by russian soldiers. then, russian soldiers went and raped the mothers and the daughters that were in the house after the men of the house had been killed. i went to the children's center for civil rights in ukraine and there they told us over 1,900 children have been abducted, kidnapped by russian military and brought back to russia so they could be programmed to work for the russian federation. dana, i met some of those mothers whoese children were ripped away from them by russian soldiers. they don't know how they are, where they are. this is not a territorial dispute. this is an absolute authoritarian attempt by vladimir putin to overtake the free country of a neighbor. and it's obscene what's going on there. and america is right to supply and i spoke with president zelenskyy for an hour. never once asked, to have american troops, american men or women there. all he wants is the ability to fight the war on an event basis. one quick example. in artillery, the russians are outgunning them on a daily basis, nearly 11-1 in artillery. the ukrainian army is incredibly brave. they're fighting for a unified free europe that we've maintained for 80 years since tepid of world war ii. and i'm proud to have have been there with president zelenskyy and stand with the russian people who are being abused and killed by russian mercenaries. >> you also brought the ukrainian military something that could give him home or at least a chuckle. your old friend john bn bon jov showed a video of people playing "it's my life." you called bon jovi before you went, and quickly, what happened next? >> jon wrote out the lyrics to the song "it's my life," which served as an inspiration for a lot of the citizens in odessa, as they were preparing for the invasion by the russians. he wrote it out in his own hands, got it framed, and i brought it to president zelenskyy, presented it to him and said that this is representative of many of the american people and what they feel about the cause that's being fought for ukraine and who support ukrainian people against russian barbarism. and we got a good laugh over it, about two guys from new jersey trying to be supportive of what's happening over in ukraine and for the ukrainian people. and so, i was happy to do that. and to be able to show him that there's lots of folks over here. in fact, hundreds of millions of americans who believe that the ukrainian cause is just. and let's remember this, dana. donald trump said that the person perpetrating these atrocities, torture, murder, and the kidnap of innocent children is brilliant and an excellent leader. that's the kind of thing that donald trump will bring back to the presidency, is that type of attitude towards someone like vladimir putin. i think the american people want to know if vladimir putin is the role model for people we want around the world. >> as a jersey girl, i have a special appreciation for the former new jersey governor bringing jon bon jovi's lyrics over to ukraine. thank you so much for your time this morning. appreciate it. >> dana, thanks for having me on. hope everyone has a great sunday. and republican candidates are starting to band together against one particular democrat, and i'm not talking about president biden. we'll get into that with my panel, next. he spent less. seemed obvious. why would a person spend 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for business. make more of what's yours. we have a situation, biden may not even be the candidate. let's just be clear. you could have a kamala, you could have newsom,ond some other people that will end up doing it. >> we can't afford a president kamala harris. i will say that over and over. >> amen. >> republican candidates you just heard there focusing on the vice president on the trail. my panel joins me now. nice to see you all. we know the reason, the main reason that they are doing that. is because they're trying to make the point that your former boss, who you worked for for a long time, kate beddingfield, welcoming, is old and that she's likely to be the president. >> well, president biden has been clear that he thinks age is a reasonable thing for people to ask about. he said all of the time, people could watch me and see the record and address the age issue. where the republicans are making a huge mistake here in the way that the biden campaign thinks about this is their putting the vice president front and center in the core arguments that are critical to the campaign. this is the sole of the nation argument. this is you see ron desantis coming at kamala harris on this issue around slavery and comments that he made that slavery had beneficial impacts for black people. that is a fight that goes to the core of who we are. that is how joe biden thinks about one of the key pieces of this election that is forthcoming. so putting the vice president at the center of that where she could make a passionate forceful org, that is a good thing for the biden campaign and the biden white house. >> do you agree? >> the vice president has lagged in terms of her favor ability and they do want to highlight the issue of age. what i would be doing if i was a republican in the primary is talk about the fact that donald trump is 77 years old and if he want a debate about an october jen arian class we need to be honest of both sides. >> yes, the president is old and kamala harris is the heir apparent potentially if you were to step aside. but look at where this began. the vice president was given a very impressive portfolio to deal with the border crisis as well as election reform. she failed on both counts. she has not done her job as vice president. her negative rating is at 49%. these not a popular vice president. so instead of talking about her failures, she's attacking republicans and that is what she's doing. and they're simply responding. so this is not as much republicans going after her and she's appointed herself as the attack dog and she's getting hit back. >> i'll just say, i think this is happening for a couple of reasons. most people don't know what vice presidents do and now she's a history-maker and she's a woman and a black woman and it is the easy thing to do so say she's the attack dog. go after her. she's was not put in charge of the border. she was put in charge of the root causes and go down so central and south america to talk about the numbers and everybody admits our immigration policy is if crisis. it is not because of kamala harris, it's because we've not been able to find bipartisan reform. we all know the election -- or our voting systems were broke and our former president will not acknowledge that he lost the election and she is taking it outside of washington, d.c. and done with us, the pundits and talking about the issues that women care about, abortion, i'm not going to debate ron desantis on slavery. there is no debate there and i appreciate it and i think you'll see her numbers start to increase and people will be accepting her of the job. >> where i think biden administration risks losing voters is putting kamala harris front and center. when you say joe biden is what is standing between us losing the country and having donald trump, if the next heir apparent for an 80-year-old president is someone who is deeply unpopular who herself could not at it time win on her own as president, i think that leaves people a little bit more afraid to support the ticket and i think that is bourne out in "the new york times"/siena poll. >> if you look at the 2022 midterms and you look at there was a lot of run up to 2022 and there was that biden and harris wornt focusing enough on the economy and it was a mistake to talk about democracy, but across the course of the election, that was not bourne out to be true. in fact, since the 2020 election, democrats have won statewide in all seven states that put biden over the top in 2020. so if realtime, as we've seen people go to the polls, post a biden election, so i think putting kamala harris front and senor, letting her make this argument is smart and maximizing their appeal to different voters an we know that independent voters and the small slice of people left in this urnt coo who are truly undecided and independent, their put off by the divisive republican culture war. >> wouldn't it make more sense to go after the people they're tra trying to beat which is other republicans. >> that is something we agree. >> and it is feeding red meat to their base, we don't want this other person to be running our country. it is no surprise we've never had a woman be president of our country. it is a leap. so it is cheap. it is easy. and it is calculatednd think it will work in the long run. >> republicans out there in iowa and new hampshire and south carolina, talking about the issues that people are concerned with and not obsessed with what the vice president wants to talk about for the day. they're out there talking about the biden/harris policies that are not working for the american people as much as they want to say bidenomics is working great, 66% of democrat voters are worse off economically and we've see gas prices on rise and people having trouble getting homes and cars, that is where american people are feeling it and that is what republicans are talking about. >> and not necessarily -- donald trump not so much. he's talking about himself. so on that note, i want to talk post about a meeng from joe ton biden and barack obama in the white house in the summer. it said former president barack obama had a private lunch with president biden this summer and iced concerned about donald trump political reths including an intensely following and a trump media ego system and a polarize the country underlying his worry that trump could be a formidable candidate than many believe. >> i believe nobody should take for granted that trump could be president again and joe biden should be running with the is su -- with the assumption that is running. i'm stunning they're not taking it directly to donald trump. you don't earn the right to run against donald trump or anybody else, nick haley or tim scott, the time to defeat donald trump is -- >> if that doesn't happen, if joe biden taking trump seriously enough. it looks like his old boss said -- >> no question. and as someone who worked for joe biden who left this white house in march, he takes the threat of donald trump seriously and believes he's nothing less than a threat to the country. he got into the race in 2019 making an argument about the specific threat that he believed that donald trump posed to soul of the nation and was told that wasn't where the country was so i would argue nobody has taken donald trump more seriously and also let's not forget no one else has beaten donald trump nationwide. >> good to see you all. thank you for spenning your sunday mon morning with us. fareed zakaria is next. elief wi+ heartburn + sleeeep support. love food back and fall asleep p faster. ♪tum,m, tum tum tum, tums♪ ♪ ♪ we're reinventing our nenetwork... ...with smarter, more efficient routes... ...so you can deliver more value to your customers. fast. reliable. perftly orchestrated. the united states postal service. eva's about to learn her fear of missing out leads to overeating. i totally eat stuff to not miss out. and that's just a bit of 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