>> for the third time this year the -- president of the united states of interest on felony charges this time for alleged crimes against democracy itself. good evening in new york i'm anderson cooper -- along with jake tapper in washington. >> anderson unlike the first tournament in new york and florida, this one was held within view of the crime scene. the u.s. capital. federal courthouse, where dozens of members of the violent mob have been cited, that he incited a hundreds convicted at the president. the actual proceedings that relied by the magistrate judge -- pled not guilty to four counts of the election he lost his next court date set for the 28 in front of a trial judge, antonio chutkan, who is expected to set a trial date. >> a short time later at the sentencing at the tarmac at the reagan national airport, holding an umbrella by his body man and documents gay codefendant walt nauta, mr. trump made the following remarks, starting with a slur about the nation's capital. >> this is a very sad day for america, and it was also very sad driving through washington d. c. and seeing the filth and decay and all of the broken buildings and malls and graffiti. this is not the place that i left. it's a very sad thing to see it. when you look at what's happening, this is a persecution of a political opponent. this was never supposed to happen in america. this is the persecution of the person that's leading by very, very large margins in the republican primary and leading biden by a lot. so if you can't beat him, you persecute him or you prosecute him. we can't let this happen in america. thank you very much. interesting idea that there is not graffiti or -- >> oh at the town, anderson. when he pointed out earlier, when trump left washington on january 2021, the district is under heightened security, out of concerns that the inauguration might prompt a repeat of the january six right. >> jake, the former president is not baca's call cold in jersey. cnn's kaitlan collins is outside the federal khorasan, washington post's been covering events all day. caitlin, or issue from former president's aides and allies about how the night went? >> anderson, it was as expected when it came to the actual proceeding, the nuts and bolts of what it looked like once the former president was here in the chorus behind me. of course, the expected me to plead not guilty, but he did it himself here, which is not what he did and miami. instead, as attorney did it. he himself said the words when he was in the chorus behind me. for the president himself, i am told that he is obviously not happy that she had to come here to washington today, as he made clear in his remarks there and subsequent remarks, that he's made on about the city, but if the idea would be that he'd prefer not to show up in person for this, another indictment, and other or mondaire of his growing legal troubles that he is facing. he's talking online about how they are benefiting him politically, but they are weighing on him. he had this dejected look on his face as he got the motorcade to go back to the airport, to go back to new jersey. i should note that those words you heard earlier, that was all he said. he did not take questions from reporters, and that is despite the fact that they have been planning for him to take a few questions from reporters when he got to the airport. it's unclear will change that plan, but some certainly something. did >> the prosecution wants a speedy trial. it seems clear where the defense wants to delay as much as possible. >> absolutely, there's no doubt that they want to delay. we watched it happen and the documents case in florida. the difference though is that there is no codependent to help drag it out. he had help from well not getting a florida attorney and having to delayed up by several weeks. here, it's just him. he's the only defendant. those coconspirators this it ended indictment, have not themselves been indicted. this is probably the most abnormal part the entire day. at one point, it was expected that there was a bit of a dispute between his attorney and the judge talking about the timeline for his trial. he was talking about the next appearance several weeks from now potentially setting the trial they then. his attorney was making the point they wanted to make sure that they had enough time. that is john morrow, who's argued to me that he believes he could take nine months to a year to try this case. of course, this will all be up to the judge here who has a quick timeline, typically, for these kinds of things. >> we should point out that the former president has been criticizing the charges on truth social. is there any reason that the lawyers will ask him to print out or, even if they did, with that matter? >> it's certainly would not matter. he has had attorneys before who have asked not to attack. prosecutors are not to attack judges. he's attacking jack smith, who sat 15 feet away from him today. i talk to people in his orbit, people on his legal team, people on the legal team before, and they obviously do not think it's a good idea to attack the judge and attack the prosecutor. but also, their client is not a trump, and there is not really a way to stop him from posting online. you've heard the just said they say not to threaten witnesses, pretty standard language but making sure that that was something that was set while the former president was in the courtroom. as you know, there is a massive list of witnesses in this case, including people who have worked for him, people closest to him and people who still work for him, anderson? >> kaitlan, thanks so much. jake? >> anderson, thanks so much. with me tonight, senior all enforcement analyst andrew mccabe. senior legal analyst laura coats. senior political analyst william porter, and senior special correspondent jamie gangel. let's start with something that i thought was very interesting, laura coates. the judge not only are cited the four charges flight out in the indictment but also, the maximum sentence potentially for anybody found guilty, convicted at them. this includes conspiracy to obstruct an official proceeding, which is a maximum of 20 years obstruction of an official proceeding, maximum conspiracy against rights, meaning's ability or attempt to take away the voting rights and parts of individuals to have to votes counted. that's ten years, it acts if if the ears, the recharge is a four. is that normal to give the charges and the maximum sentence? >> it is standard to provide the defendant with as much notice as possible so that they know the full scope of their actual charges. they also know his age, he stated. if you look arithmetic on that, the idea that if the maximum were imposed, it's really a life sentence for this particular individual. >> 77 years old. >> but i will say that it is highly unlikely that any a does maximums would normally be reached, although this is a judge who in the course of trying and overseen different cases that the january six court proceedings, she has gone above even where prosecutors have recommended. she has been very clear and firm about the gravity assigned to these charges, and these are very serious charges against anyone, let alone for the president at the united states. by providing that notice, it's a kind of due process. by the way, it's shocking to many people to hear that, but this is the experience of most defendants in courtrooms, where they are not confronted with the reality that they are now on the other side at the united states -- >> andrew mccabe, there's been a lot of talk today about how dominant is being treated as of this would in the justice system, to a degree that is true but also in otherwise, he is getting benefits of the doubt the other defendants would not. first of all, he was released just on his own cognizance, right? >> that is absolutely right, so in a significant way, the fact that he has to appear here in d.c. to be arraigned and informed that the charges and to be processed, all of those things are normal procedure that every defendant and the federal criminal matter us to do. as you mentioned, there are some notable differences here. he has not been subjected to a mugshot, i did this case or the case as far as we know. it's questionable as to whether or not he was fingerprinted today in the voting process. there's an argument to be made that he is so on, it is not necessary to have the identifying information. but, released on your own recognizance, when you have the ability to hop on your own 7:57 and a minute, go anywhere and you glow that you want to go, that's a pretty big extension of courtesy or liberty to this defendant. no matter how hard the prosecutors in the system try to conform this prosecution to the standard route all criminal defense and the federal system go through, i think it's always going to be slightly different because he is a former president. >> gloria, one at the things that is interesting, they are pushing forward on this first amendment. who knows what the actual due, the trump lawyers, when they go to the courtroom, but in the core of the public opinion, they've been talking about a first amendment defense. you're prosecuting things were things he said. you can do, that he has a first amendment right. here is what trump's then attorney general bill barr not on jenner six but the days and weeks leading up to january six told kaitlan collins last night when asked about this first amendment defense. >> as the indictment says, they are not attacking his first amendment right. he can say whatever he wants. he can't even lie and tell people that the election was stolen, when he knew better. but that does not protect you from entering into a conspiracy. all conspiracies involve speech, and all fraud involve speech. free speech is not give you the right to engage in fraudulent conspiracy. >> there goes that theory. >> he ripped that apart. >> he said donald trump can lie. we know donald trump lies. they can my aunt they want, try to depress, lied to his friends, lie to people who work for him, but he said that is kind of besides the point. that is almost irrelevant. this was, according to the former attorney general, and he seemed to believe that it was laid out clearly a conspiracy. if you want to have a conspiracy, who had to conspire with other people. and we all know from looking at this indictment pretty closely. there is a big blank here for an coconspirators. i had some scribbling on here. >> the point is that there are a lot of blanks base. >> ella blank space. we want to put in some new descendants. >> they do want to put in some conspirators, well, coconspirators. they got the room for it. what they don't have is the time, and they want to move this case very quickly, unlike the presidents attorneys, who want to delay, delay, delay. but there is an argument if they have put down all of those other conspicies on a list, that really would have delayed what they want to do, which is talk about donald trump. >> i just had one quick thing, that was bill barr, donald trump's former attorney general, who is not only a conservative republican, but he was hard allowing. he supported donald trump in every way that he could, over and over. he was aggressive. >> during the first impeachment, during the mueller investigation? >> he only left in december. >> for him to affect obliterate a defense that trump's lawyers are putting out there now, it's everything -- everything else he said in that interview, he said caitlin asked about whether donald trump could take the stand or bill brought up if you would take the stand, and bill barr made very clear that would not be a good idea. >> you have donald trump take the stand? >> right. what we are seeing here, whether it's donald trump or his lawyers or republican elected officials, this is the political court. this is speaking to their base, to their supporters. this is not what is going to go on. >> there is a reason for that, right? donald trump's first primary and most important legal defense is to win the presidency in 2024. >> that's his hail mary passed for getting out from under both of these federal cases, because if it wins the presidency, he knows bookcases go away overnight, if they have not already. >> important word though, federal cases, because there are other cases and matters, including decisions made by fani willis at the corporate county d.a.'s office about what they would do, and they would not into in from the. but we're talking about political speech as a talking point. this actually means something in the law. does not mean that anytime a politician speaks it becomes political speech and no one can touch. there are some clear reasons about why they want to protect and be mindful of protecting political speech. we do not want people turn into job because they won against the king. remember, i personally remember there, what we remember reading about what a statement -- no you did not, jaime can go. dick about all the aspects of, it but the notion of political speech, essentially means you can regrow your grievances, criticize the government, you're entitled to your opinion but not the fact that they referred to action to actually creates criminal liability. >> just to point out what bill barr was talking about, there is a 0.3 in the indictment, where, and remember, this is an indictment, from a grand jury, this is from american citizens, and they give this to the special counsel. i am just going to read, the defendant, donald trump, had a right, like every american to speak publicly about the election and even to claim falsely that there have been outcomes determinative fraud during the election and that he had one. there's also entitled to formally challenge the results of the elections of unlawful and inappropriate means, such as seeking recounts for votes in states and filing lawsuits of procedures. indeed, in many cases, the defendant pursued the methods of testing the election results. the efforts to change the outcome in a stage or recounts were uniformly unsuccessful. they're sitting right here, the third point, he's not in trouble for a lot. that's right, and let's be clear about this, the federal criminal code as many statutes that criminalize speech that is not protected, every fraud requires a statement as part of the crime. if i call you up, jamie and i tell you on the phone for the purpose of stealing money from you. that is wire fraud. might last two you are not protected speech. if i knew, gloria, to return, to force you to give me something of value, that is extortion. might that to you is not protected speech, and that is the case that they are making in the indictment. the speech is not protected because it is part of a crime. >> just to put a period on, there is a different channel. fox, 787 point $5 million, they paid to dominion electronic voting systems because of the definition, the definition that day platformed and made themselves, some at their host against that company, free speech is a right that we enjoy in this country. it is not an unlimited right, anderson. >> for airtime, speaker kevin mccarthy spoke on the subject he falsely acquitted former president trump's actions after the 2020 election with the losing campaigns hillary clinton and al gore. dickey. >> i could say the same thing that hillary clinton says about her election the schloss. i can say the same thing about the dnc who set the 2016 race. i can say the same thing about those anti-democratic party for the leadership on down about george bush and al gore did. but were any a dam prosecuted? were any attempt put in jail? when hillary clinton said it, nothing happened. one day set in georgia's election, nothing happened to them either. you know what, when the dnc said that, nothing happened to them either. >> speaker mccarthy just a short time ago, we are joined by our commuters caught jennings, alyssa farah grown -- congressman, kinzinger, what did you think of it? >> oh, my gosh, watch into, i can. he knows better. he knows that is complete garbage. >> that is just read me talking points. >> even to the base will look at that and go that is not decent thing. does not make an ounce of sense. the can see how angry he's been getting, lately, by the way when he speaks, kevin. that's reverend to get angry when he speaks, but he's been doing it more and more. my guess is that this is tearing him up inside. he's mad not at the people he's asking the question, he's frankly mad that he has to come up with that lie and stay there and say that. as marco rubio tweeted yesterday, because some actors did a video where they were asking the electors in 2016 to vote for hillary clinton's that donald trump. they were equating the, it's different. it's okay to ask electors to split their vote. it's not okay to create fake electors and attacked the capital to get your way. >> you're not even convinced kevin mccarthy believes it watching that. we saw this kind of echo similar talking points. at least a fonda a strong statement. they're using all the terminology that we expect, a witch hunt, to distract from hunter biden, has absolutely nothing to with hunter biden. they were all there at the capitol. i am old enough to remember when kevin mccarthy said, and we have audio with discussing, i am done with this guy, talking about donald trump. labor sponsored but for the, day but now that is out the window. i don't know how republican supporters, someone like mccarthy see those two things and kind of put them together, because it is just a direct tradition, and it's so shallow. >> and yet, david urban, this is repeated time and time again. >> i know congressman kinzinger -- i think a lot this, i was going to say, to the average american, the distinction about difference and these previous videos. if you watch the martin sheen video, the 100 celebrities having faithless electors, electoral college. if you watch the rnc that as a video out on social media, about a half hour from 2016 on, that period of saying trump is not a legitimate president. we need to resist all the resistance movement and all of those things and contests presidency from the outset. the articles in the washington post that trump needs to be impeached today and on and on. that is what will be fed. i'm not saying it's correct, but that is what will be fed to americans, and this i know that our legal experts in that this is a well crafted legal document. i'm sure it is put to most americans, it's white noise. it just what. nice >> i disagree that most americans don't remember that the capital was stormed and that false electors -- >> i would agree. degenerate part, i don't agree. there is a disconnect here. this is not a january six indictment. if you read, this is about a fake electors scheme, a bustling capital. >> here is what the problem is. if they are going to throw -- >> the conduct is not just the issue, not just the speech. the fact that they tried to -- >> congressman kinzinger said he would like to see a subsequent indictment. i would. they would throw tons of garbage out there, the point that is not it will confuse people, it will. that is not the whole strategy. hold on, let me finish. the problem is leaders like kevin mccarthy have to be the ones to go out there and show the difference institute. we are letting leaders off the hook because we're like, oh well, no, don't be in leadership if you're unwilling to say the hard truth here. >> in terms of the legal battle ahead, obviously, the judge would like a speedy trial, the government would like a speedy trial. the judge also used to be a defense lawyer so he looks at the right of the defendants as well. how speedy a trial can there be and exactly who decides it? >> so the judge said that you have a week you tell me mr. prosecutor how much time you think that this trial will take, and then the defense and say we got the data tell them that he is going to take that information and use that to book a trial date. i know one of the defense attorneys have been kind of the trial could take nine months to a year, but let's think about it for a minute. the prosecution is the burden of proof. the prosecution is the whole show. they put the whole trial on. the defendant is not to do it in. they don't the open cross examine a witness. they don't even have to put on a defense at all. so really the question for a judge is how much time government is your case going to take, and that is really the critical part, and then you ask the defense, what the fans are going to put on, if any. >> it seems like they won't put on any, the former president. >> exactly, let's say jacks misses that it's a six or eight week trial, i think that is probably right around what he will say, what defense attorney will say is that i have another six months worth of evidence the put on. what is he going to put on, so a certain point, the argument that the judge will push back on that and say, let's be realistic, you don't have to commit to what exactly are going to do but if you were to put on a defense, how much shantytown it would be, and i think the judge can do a fairly educated guess of how much time this would take and how long it would be, sending with the pretrial motions. we all know, l.a. and i could sit here right now and tell you what the pretrial motions would be. it's obvious what the arguments are going to be. first amendment, free speech, but advice of counsel is another one. i want to change a venue because i can't get a fair trial here. i want judge your accused because your biased and you said the thing about presidents aren't kings. he'll make so many different arguments that are just a very obvious, and the judge will give him enough time to make those arguments. you can do that and two months, for example, and the government could probably respond and another two months. jack smith is going to go over all of the discovery. there is no reason that this can go in january, february and be done before the first photo is cast, even in early voting. >> the judges brought a trial sort of like a rain master. you're trying to wrangle aggressive, opinionated parties that have not just their own agendas book competing agendas and one of the challenges for a judge is how you keep control of her trial. i've had judges who cannot control a courtroom and like defense lawyers, some prosecutors run roughshod, and it's a nightmare. i've had other judges who have been strict, saying that will get this done eczema of time. i will give you one week. i will give you two weeks. i will give you two hours to give a closing argument, not a hours, so a lot will rely on the hands of judge chutkan, and by all cases, she is a firm, tough, in control judge. i talk to people who appeared in front of her. you can see it in the, rules she is a no nonsense, no bs judge. she knows that we're all watching, so i look for her to push here. >> i am still reflecting on my colleagues here and the passion over there, and this is going to require for us to get through this next 18 months, it's going to require us doing something that we are not just get a country, which is nuance. it is in fact true that we are progressives work into delegitimized trump from the beginning. but they were not prosecuted, that is true. and there are conservatives who would legitimize about more from the beginning, including donald trump. who said he did not have a birthday. and they were prosecuted other. it turns out, there is a lot of speech that is not prosecuted, but what you won't be able to show is a democratic president sitting in the oval office trying to hold on to power and the way that donald trump knew or, frankly, a republican president or frankly any precedent in the history of the country, and that is the truth, so the problem is to your point, adam, there will be a lot of stuff turnout here, online, on social media, et cetera, and we will have to sit here and look at. two things can be true, yes. a lot of horrible stuff was suboptimal trump before he had a shot. before it was frankly quite correct. a lot of horrible things have been sent about joe biden. and nobody is going to go for it. there is one person being charge in this country, and is the one person is done something that no president has ever done, and it's not a. trump >> and, a years here, is, how much discovery too much discovery? that's what we hear from the trump folks. this is great for us. we get to open the pandora's box of election fraud and america can see what we have been saying the whole time. that's what you've seen and heard, and i suspect that the judge this allows the discovery that the republicans, say aha, see, there is, they are not allowing us to show america what is really going on. how much is too much? >> discover is everything, the puck in one word. as a prosecutor, you have the turnover essentially everything that you have to the defendant, but i think the question is a good one, how much leeway what the judge did the defense -- that's a different says, judge, we want to prove that the election was stolen and some of the seven states, what the judge allowed them to go down that road, which would vastly expanded trial? >> they could say that we want to go to each of the seven states. >> exactly, and it's within the judges purview to say, no, i find that is not a valid defense. i find that you have not given me at least a nugget of reversion to our could work with. >> given the fact that there have been dozens of court battles about this by the former presidents attorneys and allies, none of which really have gone in their favor, -- >> more than 60. >> does that make it easier for the judge to, to decline their efforts? >> i think she can look at that. she has to consider this as a new, on its own procedural footing. yeah, i will guarantee that prosecutors will remind them that they tried this and got nowhere. look, if the judge allows this, distinguished borrow of control, which is why that they will ask for it for that reason, anderson, i don't think the judge will allow. >> if it these laws adobe, prepared. the other side will say, aha, they are covering it. >> but it is in the indictment, right? jack smith spends many pages going state by state describing in the indictment every state in painstaking detail about what he did to try to steal the election. there is going to be little mini trials with andy trial about each of them that i think it's okay, and you can still do it in a way that i think is not going to drag this out forever, and a point i think you guys are making is the charge that is not in here is either the insurrection act or seditious conspiracy. i think that those are the charges that really relate to the storming the capitol, the violence on january six, and there are a lot of lawyers who think that should not have been charged, and jack smith at the right thing by not doing it. there are some people who think that he should have charged because, really, that with take the first amendment argument off the table. and that really is what this is about. it is about the violent overthrow, trying to stop the election with violence, and it was not charged there. i think, legally, jack smith was right, because tying him to say that he was in a conspiracy with stewart rhodes and the oath keepers, et cetera, i think that would be hard to prove that he said yes, go be violent, but at the same time, i do think that was sort of us that question about, why was he not charge with that on january six? >> -- what take a quick break. coming up next, former attorney general gonzales who served inside the bush administration. it's taken today and the case ahead. later, congresswoman zoe lofgren who serves on the houston or six committee, which placed a trophy or the special counsel. omers. fast. reliable. perfectly orchestrated. the united states postal service. 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ask your rheumatologist for rinvoq. and take back what's yours. learn how abbvie could help you save. ♪ tourists tourists that turn into scientists. tourist taking photos that are analyzed by ai. so researchers can help life underwater flourish. ♪ (♪) astepro allergy, steroid free allergy relief that starts working in 30 minutes, while other allergy sprays take hours. with astepro's unbeatably fast allergy relief you can astepro and go! that leads me to believe that they are only seeing the tip of the iceberg on this. >> you think jack smith has more? >> yes. >> you call that the george costanza defense, it is not a lie if you believe it. and a moment, anderson, of course is going to be joined by former george w. bush general toronto gonzales, but first as we, mentioned the former president is back at bedminster in new jersey this evening, cnn -- 's is nearby and joins us now. what do we know about mr. trump's mood this evening? >> well, i think you could see it clearly today playing out. he was somber in court, our reporters were inside the courtroom said he appeared glum, he had his arms crossed over, him that lines up with what i'm hearing from jumps advisors. i've been speaking with them for the past several days, now they tell, me he is very concerned about these charges and privately he has been frustrated he is frustrated not only about what this means for him personally, and politically, but also what it means for his legacy and i know from covering donald trump several u.s., now he thinks about that a lot and that has been weighing on him today. but i will also point out, publicly, you are still going to see the defined donald trump that he likes to show voters, and show viewers. even when speaking with reporters after his appearance later tonight, he still you could tell was not using the bravado he normally does, but on truth social and in his post, he is using that defiant rhetoric that he often tries to portray when talking about these different charges. his team on the other, hand they are angry as well, they are fired up about these charges, but also trying to maximize the political benefit of them. we know from the past two indictments, this one included, the storms one he now faces, he is seeing a boost in the polls, and he knows he can fund-raise off them. they're ramping up their fund raising repeals, reaching out to donors, and also trying to drum up support from donald trump's base. jake? >> we should clarify, using a boost in the polls of republican voters. he's not seeing a boost in the poll of overall voters, particularly independent voters whose vote to need if he does actually become the nominee. elena, chain thank you so much. joining us now is alberto gonzales who served during the george w. bush administration, based on allegations -- we are having trouble with his audio. let's go back to jake. >> disgusting key prosecutors donald trump statements and actions related to the fake elector spot and seven, state officials in one of those seven, michigan wolverine state have already charged 16 individuals in that investigation, the fake electors investigation. today we learned they have charged a third person in a separate part of the investigation, not that same one about fake electors, but about separate conspiracy to seize and access the 2020 election, i'm joined now by michigan attorney general dana nessel. attorney general nestle, first of, all we should note that because one of the three individuals charged with trying to seize an access voting machines was your opponent, for attorney general in 2022, you have recused yourself from that investigation. i just want to know that for our viewers. but i do want to ask, you just about the contours of that investigation since the special prosecutor -- has been out there talking about this case. can you give us any idea, i know you have recuse yourself, but just ask the -- on the show this evening, what are they charged, why were they trying to access voting machines? >> well, first of, all let me say that there are a lot of parallels that i see between donald trump and his activities, and the things we have seen in regard to this recent indictment against him. then, what his soldiers were doing on the ground, and the seven targeted, states including of course michigan. now the allegations involving the former republican nominee for attorney general and one of trump's campaign attorneys as well as a former republican state representative really involve illegal access to tabulators, and then, you know, an effort to tamper with those tabulators, run tests on those tabulators, and ultimately damaging those tabulator so they can be replaced. those are essentially the allegations. what is interesting of course in the case involving my former opponent, is really the timing. it reminds me a lot of donald trump. you know, you look at the timing of when these alleged acts occur, and shortly thereafter, he makes an announcement, he is running to be the michigan attorney general therefore meaning i can't continue my investigation because now by virtue of that, i'm running against my opponent. it has to go to a special prosecutor. >> interesting. you can however talk about -- i should note, this idea about seizing the voting machines, after the election, it is one that donald trump was talking about in the oval office, when talking about potentially declaring martial law and seizing voting machines that various battleground states. it is interesting that as you note, his foot soldiers were trying to do the same thing. the fake electors scheme, which you are as attorney general completely involved in and you announced charges against the 16 individuals in july, they also were part of this alleged conspiracy, right, so what was the plan there? were they aware a the fact they were going to be put for the sake electors even if trump did not prevail in court cases in michigan? >> well, you know while i can't get into all the facts and details of this case that is now pending, what i will say is this. firstly, very clearly this is a coordinated campaign that started at the top, started with the former president of the united states, and then went into all these other states, and additionally, just as we have seen in this criminal indictment, what we saw in michigan was honestly overwhelming evidence of you know, a large number of crimes. so, what i said when i announce the charges, a few weeks ago, what i will say again now is this, when you hear donald trump talking about these charges being political in nature, here is what i would say. the most political thing that checks smith could possibly do in the face of overwhelming evidence of guilt, would be not to charge donald trump at all. the in and of itself would be something that would be political. when you have somebody who is clearly guilty of a number of federal offenses, what you do is you charge them. the only reason you would not charge them, is because you are making a political calculation. >> yeah, we should note, that as one of the panelists on anderson's panel said just a few moments ago, you, know the indictment and every american should read it for themself, go state-by-state on these battleground states, talk about donald trump's efforts to steal joe biden's victory in those states, michigan is -- 17 through 19 i know you disagree with michigan as speaker and the michigan senate majority leader on probably 95% of the issues, but do you give them credit for standing up against what must have been a very intense pressure campaign from donald trump to flip the results and you know, undermine the election? there i realize we are in low bar territory when we praise people for not breaking the law on doing the job, but the at least give him credit for that? >> do i give them credit for not violating the law and for abiding by the norms of our society? the constitution? yes, i, mean i think obviously i applaud them for standing firm, and not trying to intervene in any way they knew would be illegal, and that is frankly, you, know why we still have a democracy no. in 2023, it is because there were people like the senate majority leader in michigan, and how speaker the michigan in 2020, that stood firm, and did the right thing. despite this enormous pressure campaign, then again, i mean, you -- it is not just top two republicans in the state of michigan, that were subjected to, those people forget that donald trump actually called members of the -- board have -- can you imagine one of those individuals and you are involved in this very ministerial process of a county board canvas, to approve the election and you get a call on your way home from the president of the united states of america telling you to go back, and to switch your vote on you know, this certification for your county. i mean, is there anyone in the state of michigan or any of the seven states that donald trump did not call to try and pressure them into doing something very illegal? that is really the better question at this point. >> yeah, attorney general, thank you so much for your time, really appreciated, back to you anderson. >> we think we fixed our technical difficulties with -- let's go back to, him gonzales, apologize for those, problems based on the allegations laid out the, indictment would you have brought this case? >> you, know i yes, i would have brought this case, i -- let me remind the viewers though in this country, that president trump's president innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. so you know, presenting the indictment is so much easier than getting a conviction. i mean in a complicated case. a high profile case. so we are a long way from a situation where the president trump has violated the law. he is presumed innocent, and i don't want to get away from that, it is true, the story laid out by the special counsel 's very thorough, and i think he's done a good job in streamlining the charges so that hopefully a trial can occur, and from my own perspective i think it is important for the trial to occur before the election and american people deserve to know when they cast a ballot assuming donald trump is the republican nominee, they need to know whether or not his conduct, whatever it was, was criminal or not. >> do you think it will happen before the election? >> well, i think it is certainly possible. you don't have classified information to deal with, you only have one defendant currently, and so i think it is still possible, you have a judge that has a reputation of moving things forward, i think she appreciates the importance of protecting the rights of the accused in this case, but also understanding that the american people, this is an important case. it is important for them to know whether or not to one of their candidates for president assuming again donald trump wins the nomination, whether or not this person committed federal crimes. so yes, i think it is possible, a lot will depend of course with respect to what donald trump's lawyers were able to do in terms of slowing down the process, but i think it will be an every effort by the judge to make sure that happens. i think it is important for the american people. >> we have been here from the former presidents attorney first amendment arguments, advice of counsel arguments, do either of those -- are either of those, do you, think applicable here? >> well i don't think they're going to carry the, day i think that the resonate with the average voter, no question about, it i mean, it seems to make sense that people say things all the, time in campaign all the time what -- sometimes what they say is not true, and they are not prosecuted. but i do think it is true that the person that does not protect all speech, and it does not protect conspiracy to engage in through a fraud. and then, at the end of the day, you know, how is donald trump going to respond to it if he does? i'm assuming he won't take the stand, so it is really -- how that is we want to play with respect to the defense. of course the burden is on the prosecution, no question about that, but i think jack smith has done a pretty good job laying out the evidence, here and i think as attorney general barr indicated, i think there is more than to check smith has that will be presented at trial. and the question is, what is the defense going to be? donald trump seems to me will be the most -- the best witness in his defense, but are you really going to put him on the stand? i wouldn't put him on the stand. so there's a lot of unanswered questions here. i guess the shore dancer to your question is, i think this is a strong case, but it is not going to be a slam dunk by any stretch of the imagination. you have a good story, here if a storm prosecutor, but president trump is going to have -- >> just to be clear, you were saying president trump would be the best witness in his own defense, theoretically, but the fact that he is donald trump and a terrible witness, he's not going to testify? >> i think there's going to be so much concern that he is going to commit perjury for example. he will say something that is not in his best interest. just based upon the evidence, based upon what i have heard comments from his own attorney general, i, mean that to me carries the most, wait i've been asked by others, do you believe that he believed that the election was stolen? that there was fraud and you know, i don't know the man, i wasn't his lawyer, but when bill barr his lawyer the attorney general says, he believes that donald trump knew the election what's been lost, i give that a great deal of weight. >> judge gonzales, thank you for being with, us appreciate it. >> you bet, thank you. >> just ahead we will be joined by another -- investigative january 6th, attacks congressman -- has called the former president's behavior criminal, says it must be addressed by a jury. use priceline, they've got deals no one else has. what about work? 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you may pay as little as $10 per prescription. ♪( please don't go by harry casey, richard raymond finch )♪ ( ♪ ♪ ) ♪ (please don't go) ♪ ♪ (please don't go) ♪ ♪ (please don't go) ♪ ♪ (please don't go) ♪ ♪ (don't gooo) ♪ ( ♪ ♪ ) ♪ (don't go away) ♪ pre-order now and get a free storage upgrade. ♪ (please don't go) ♪ >> the former president's not guilty plea today to charges to overturn the 2020 election comes almost eight months after the january six committee or for the former president to the justice department criminal charges. now much of the justice department's case to follow directly in the footsteps of the panels 18 month investigation. let's go back to kaitlan collins who's outside the federal court. >> yes so we have been outside the federal courthouse since earlier today, and i'm joined now by one of the members of the january 6th congressional committee congressman sotloff run. congressman, thank you for being here, tonight as someone who was on the committee, and some nuclear late a roadmap for the justice department to, what was it like to watch the former president go in there today, and plead not guilty to these charges? >> well, look, it is hard to be joyful when a former president is arrested. on the other hand there is a sense of satisfaction, i think among all the members that the hard work we putin and in the evidence we uncovered or really providing a roadmap for the department of justice to bring justice to this case and charge the ex president with a crime through said he committed and i'm hoping we can have a speedy trial in the justice for the good of the country. >> but one of the things of course that is of difference here is what jack smith was able to get his hands on through the power of his subpoena compared to a congressional committee subpoena, were you surprised when you heard that the former vice president mike pence had taken these contemporaneous notes, did you have any idea about that when you were conducting your investigation? >> no, i did not know about, that and i don't think the investigative staff did either. we were -- you know, we interviewed his council his chief of staff, he declined our subpoena, so there were things we did not know, what i was really struck by was in the indictment where he reports that trump told him he was too honest to me that says a couple things, one the president knew he was being dishonest, and that pence refused to violate his oath. i'm sure that his contemporary 's notes of a lot of information that will be of value, and will augment what the committee was able to find out. >> one person that you did get to speak to what the former attorney general bill barr, i also spoke to him last, night i asked if he thought trump actually did know that he had lost the election. this is what he told me. >> do i personally have? not >> yes at first i was not, sure but i couldn't believe that he knew well that he had lost the election. >> how important do you believe statements like that from people who are around trump in those final days around the election will be to this case that document is bringing here? >> well i think the attorney general, i agree, with not evidence in a court of law, however there is ample evidence to prove that the then president knew he lost. also, he lied to members of congress in the senate, urging them to reject an electoral vote, saying that there was states that wanted the electors returned. he knew that was false, you know he had tried to get the states to, rejected and it failed. so it is not just that he knew he lost the election, he knew that the states were not asking for their electors back, the whole thing was a fraud. on the united states. >> one thing bill barr would not say is whether or not he has spoken to jack smith, as someone who investigated what jack smith is investigating, here do you think that is someone you would assume he would want to talk to? >> i would assume so, i mean, there were quite a few situations that barr was able to observe that would be pertinent to this case. so i imagine that barr has been a witness, and i imagine also, you know i'm just guessing, but it looks like since meadow was not apparently a coconspirator, i assume that mark meadows may also be testifying, and that would be a very damaging to trump. i mean meadows knows everything. >> can we to, see congressman so lofgren, thank you for your time tonight. >> and more of our continuing coverage next including coverage on the former president's defense strategy, and whether the special counsel has more evidence on what he is shown in his indictment. .. ...so you can deliver more value to your customers. fast. reliable. perfectly orchestrated. the united states postal service. why didn't we do this last year? before you were preventing migraine with qulipta®? remember the pain? cancelled plans? the worry? that was then. and look at me now. you'll never truly forget migraine. but qulipta® reduces attacks, making zero-migraine days possible. it's the only pill of its kind that blocks cgrp - and is approved to prevent migraine of any frequency. to help give you that forget-you-get migraine feeling. don't take if allergic to qulipta®. most common side effects are nausea, constipation, and sleepiness. learn how abbvie could help you save. qulipta®. the forget-you-get migraine medicine™. ancestry's helped me really understand my family's immigration experience and what life must have been like for them. and as i pass it on to my daughter, it's an important part of understanding who we are. you got this. let's go. gobble gobble. i've seen bigger legs on a turkey! rude. who are you? 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