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And its not lost on anyone that while trump is facing charges over the last election, he is, of course, in the middle of his reelection campaign, laura. This is the third time, the third time that donald trump has now been criminally indicted. In what, four months at this point . Special counsel jack smith charged him in the classified documents probe in june. Heed that manhattan grand jury charging the former president for Business Fraud back in march. And just listen to what Special Counsel jack smith had to say tonight. The attack on our nations capitol on january 6th, 2021 was an unprecedented assault on the Seat Of American Democracy as described in the indictment, it was fueled by lies, lies by the defendant targeted at obstructing a Bedrock Function of the u. S. Government, a nations process of collecting, counting, and certifying the results of the president ial election. All right. So what exactly is in this indictment . Legal Affairs Correspondent paula reid is here. Paula, you have been working this for so long. Fabulous reporting, you and the team. And todays indictment is laying out how trump used, quote, dishonesty, fraud, and deceit in his efforts to stay in power. So what is standing out to you tonight . The biggest thing that stands out to me is that the former president is the only one being charged today. This is something that our reporting over the past several weeks had suggested to us, but we were quite surprised that he would be the only one charged, at least initially at this point because he clearly did not act alone. You look at the charges that he is facing right now. Three of them involve a conspiracy, throughout the indictment, they lay out how he worked with others to amplify what he knew were false claims of Election Fraud to litigate this strategy, to pressure various states, to pressure his own Vice President , and then, of course, on the day of january 6th, he continued to pressure his Vice President which resulted in violence, and then he and his supporters continued to double down to try to use this as an opportunity to overturn the election. Again, he was not operating in a silo. So really watching Going Forward toee if any of these six coconspirators will be formally charged. The other thing, one of the other two things that stood out the me is we didnt get a lot of new information. We got some new details from the Vice President s handwritten notes, some interactions with political advisers. We werent privy to prior. But given how much Additional Information jack smith was able to on tarngs he got access to mark meadows, i was expecting to learn even more. Peeking of releasing details, we did get the indictment today. We didnt have to wait until the initial appearance. We didnt have to wait a few days. The country, the world gets to see the case today, and they dont have to wait. And i think that is significant, and thats something weve been lobbying the Special Counsel to do. And of course there are some unanswered questions. We have names, the reporting identifies five of the six coconspirators. We dont if theyll be charged, this case is historic so many reasons, no matter what the outcome will be. What are the next steps, paula . The biggest next step is the former president s court appearance. We expect that will happen on thursday. Its unclear if that will be via zoom that is an option available to him, or if he will come in person. Now after that we know the Special Counsel has at least one more witness Interview Schedule next week, and at least another one in the next few weeks. We know from our reporting this investigation continues. As the Special Counsel said that, but we know what theyre up to. Theyre continuing to talk to witnesses, witnesses like former new York Police Commissioner bernie kerik. He worked very closely with Rudy Giuliani in these efforts to allege fraud. And one of the other witness, at least one of them is a former trump lawyer. So they will continue to gather evidence. It is unclear if there will be a superseding indictment and additional charges. Weve already seen one proceeding document that led to an additional codefendant in the maralago case. There is already a precedent for this unprecedented time. Thank you so much. Erin . Indictment against trump repeatedly references the six coaxes that paula is referring to. Zachary cohen is who are to tell us more about them, the ones we now know about, and of course one we dont yet, zack. Aaron, the indictment refers to people as six individuals who trump enlisted to assist him in his criminal behavior. We have identified five of the six people that are described in this indictment. And if you follow it along during the January 6th Committee hears, none of the names will really come as a surprise. They include people like trumps former personal attorney, Rudy Giuliani, attorney john eastman, and even people like Jeffrey Clark, the formal doj who is trying to use the Justice Department to overturn the 2020. Like paula said, a lot of this information was publicly known, which is how we were able to identify in part some of these folks. The unidentified person is described as a political consultant who helped implement a central theme the fake el electors plot. This is really one of the cornerstones of jack smiths case here. He said trump and these six individuals tried to trick these electors in the seven state tots sign the certificates asserting they were the original collectors and to send them to National Archive in congress. The unite that pence could use them. We dont know the identity of this sixth individual yet. But im sure well back with that shortly. Mostly curious. Usually the term used when you talk about cocon spirit cores is unindicted. And the modifier is not there is nothing in this indictment that is not purposeful. So that word is not in there on purpose. It could mean theyre going to be charged. Perhaps they have indictments handed out. Do you have any clarity . There. Could be a number of reasons, including what jack smith told us today. He said theyre still investigating. And as paula noted, we know from our reporting that they still are witness interviews lined up, including with bernie kerik, who can shed some light on these efforts to find evidence of authority fraud. But i think the lockest indication is the investigation is still ongoing. If your one of the six people unnamed in this indictment or you think you are, youre probably not resting easy at this stage. Absolutely. Zachary, thank you very much. With these charges, these are very serious. 20 wroers, bent years, 10 years. This is incredibly, incredibly serious allegations that cnn as a conspirator would be facing. I want to bring in tim haffey. So timothy you look at this with an eye on almost anyone else because you have been through reams and reams of information, hundreds of hours of interviews all related to the January 6th Committees investigation, which was exhaustive. So when you read through this 45page giemt from jack smith, did you learn anything . Did anything surprise you about how it was presented . No, erin. Thanks for having me. It reads very much like a truncated version of our report. It actually reads very similar to vice chair cheneys Opening Statement in the first of our summer hearings. It was during that First Reading where she laid out that there is a multipart intentional plan to disrupt the joint session and prevent the transfer of power. It involved pressure on state officials, on the department of justice, on the Vice President , and ultimately launching a mob at the capital. Thats exactly whats alleged in this indictment. There is not a lot of new information other than some details about direct communications between the president and the Vice President. The Vice President pat cipollone. They have gotten some additional Corroborative Information that provides important context and manifestations of the president s state of mind. But core conduct is what we said worth in our report in our hearings. Obviously you refer to pence. I know you all didnt have a chance to interview him. So obviously the there is some information from that. Im also curious, because look, 45 pages. He knows he has a lot of information he didnt include. You know youve got to make choices. How much paula reid was referring to this question. How much do you think he is holding back. Do you think there are some real gems he is holding back, but really crucial pieces of information or no . Yeah, potentially. Again, i dont think he is holding back anything, any part of the core conduct. Okay. I think he has laid out the three objectives of a cone spirs and essentially sketched out the pattern that he is going to prove. Im certain that he has left out some details, some specific conversations, some events, specific allegations. Thats common. A prosecutor would never put absolutely every fact that he or she has gathered in an indictment. This is pretty detailed. But as you said, erin, my guess is there are some additional facts that would be further proof of the allegations that were find out about. So when you went through everything and all the information you had, you recommended criminal charges. You recommended investigation. Im curious. When you go through this, he did not charge trump with Seditious Conspiracy, inciting a mob. Those charges are not in here. Does that surprise you, or does that disappoint you . No. He charged the two lead downs are the exact two that the select committee referred for his conversation, the construction of official proceeding and conspiracy to fraud the United States. Seditious conspiracy we decided it did not include that. That requires a prosecutor to solve intent to use force. There was evidence of that against the proud boys and the oath keepers. We look very hard for evidence, that the president was in communication with or somehow was ah wear of there, plans, actions, and we werent able to establish it. It doesnt mean that interwasnt there. We just werent able to establish it. The Special Counsel has not either. Otherwise you would have seen the Seditious Conspiracy count. Youre not going to issue an advertisement proved well Beyond A Reasonable Doubt in a case of this magnitude. And im not surprised at all that he chose obstruction of the official proceeding. The attempt to obstruct, interfere or impede the joint session. He has only gotten more evidence since then. As you point out, he would need to go responsibly with what he could, requiring a unanimous jury for conviction here. This very much. I appreciate your perspective. Thank you. Laura . You know, my panel is still here with me in washington, d. C. There is something that keeps going in my head, everyone about this, that is the notion of the First Amendment aspect of it, and especially what is happening in terms of whether or not trump is going to be able to build a defense, really, in this case. So youve got his allies in Congress Rushing to his defense as you well know. But his lawyer was actually on with Kaitlan Collins earlier. And listen to what he had to say about the First Amendment issues. The ultimate request that mr. Trump made to Vice President pence was pause the vote counting, allow the states to weigh in ultimately and audit and recertify. And under article 2, section 1, clause 2, the actual responsibility for qualifying electors is the state legislatures. Mr. Trump had the advice of council, mr. Eastman, who was one of the most respected constitutional scholars in the United States, giving him advice and guidance. Thats pure politics. What do you guys think . The idea of talking to lawyers about this, advice council, is that going to be the ultimate protection . As long as your lawyer told you to do so, thats it. Its already been litigated before judge carter in colorado, john eastman tried to resist turning over documents and says oh, Attorney Client privilege. But there is no privilege when the lawyer is helping the client commit a crime. What my friend john lauro said about the constitution, you can turn that document upside down and sideways. You will not find the power that he is striking in the constitution. The notion that for the fest time in American History has the thought to pause, if it were england, he would be the guy who walks in with the mace and the funny hat. He has no power to pause that proceeding. Trump knew that full well. Pit cipollone, his white house council. Pat philbin, one of our most brilliant constitutionists, and many other people told themselves that will not wash. I think the judge is going to let them make that argument to the jury. Its so far outside the pale. Do you agree . The advice of Council Defense is a little bit different than that because trump wants to argue that its not my fault. I had no state of mind. I was relying on my lawyers. Thats what makes the discovery of the identity of those coconspirators so intriguing. Theyre all lawyers. And one aspect of this is maybe smift smith is aoff mode. It takes those people off the table. Its very hard to decide to go and testify in favor of the defense if your named as a conspirator. You have a big Fifth Amendment concern at that point. The idea of can you walk past every road that says common sense, common sense, obvious, obvious. And go lie thick one over here. You got the Attorney General, got the Deputy Attorney general, white house counsel, youre a former white house lawyer. All the peoples including the Secretary Of State and beyond what you are saying is not true. And the complaint says you know thats not true. Can you really say look, i was just following my council. Or were they following him . Again, i think thats why he is the only named defendant in this case. They want to make it clear that he was the one driving this. He got advice from a number of folks that said very credible, some of the best lawyers in constitutional scholars in washington, no, you cant do that. And yet he went to others, he got a second opinion. And was he driving the conversation to get the answer he wanted . Or was he really seeking council. This idea of plausible denia deniability. It is it realistic . Im not a lawyer but this goes beyond the Attorney Client argument. Its the case that political speech broadly protected. That fundamentally the case that john lauro is making that you can almost use a political speech as a shield to do anything, as long as youre doing it while being a political candidate. And i think weve been looking at this as though that is a political argument. That couldnt be a plausible legal argument. But if youre looking at the sport that is lully more conservative that the court that gave us citizens united, i think its worth asking the question, like what if that was a plausible argument . What would happen to the american presidency . Who what wouldo what john lauro was saying to Kaitlan Collins in the fum interview when he talked about the idea he believes and he is saying this is this indictment that is turning the notion of political speech on its face. You mean i cant just have a political strategy . I cant be critical . I cant bet on particular issue and ill be punished . Is that going to be a good Talking Point that will have Staying Power . I think it will be a good Talking Point for the Republican Party. Im not certain about the individuals in the middle, however. I think norm laid this out pretty clearly. The way this indictment has been written, its pretty clear, a simple narrative. Most people can genuinely understand. He tried to pretend that he won, he tried to find fake boats that werent there, this stuff is absolutely wrong. So this idea of what divine rights of kings, you know a lot about that, that the president can say whatever. Were in the United States, people. But go ahead. People dont believe the president should be above the law regardless whether its a democrat or republican. Particularly those in the middle that donald trump is will fall on deaf ears. What do you think . The polling and the way its being described. S okay, so what . I think a lot of this is already priced in. As we heard in the january 6th commission, weve already heard a lot of these details before. There are some new things in here, mike pence being told your too honest. There are little chings. Contemporaneous notes. But general, the narrative is pretty similar. If you came into this day already believing that Donald Trumps a criminal and he is terrible and he tried to overflow an election, this validates you. But if you woke up this morning donald trump got done wrong and ever since the Biden Administration has been coming off of that, today validates that. What could move the polls as this advances, do republicans really start to stare down the barrel of a reality that theyre going to nominate a guy that might be going to prison. Does that actually spook republicans rans, not to say i think he is wrong. We going risk giving joe biden another four years by going with donald trump . He might be going to prison four times. Were talking about four major felony cases. Dont discount that alvin bragg case. Donald trump falsified documents to cover up hush money payments to interfere with the 2016 election. It was the gateway drug and that can carry jail time in new york state. The lawyer in me says allegedly. There you go. The lawyers know why. Everyone stand by. Erin, you have some new reaction from some of trumps rivals, inside. Laura, and this goes to the heart of what youre saying. No one is above the rule of law. Well, true, except if youre going to question whether the rule of law itself ieven fair. Scott. Has happening from tim tim scott has just come out. I remain concerned about the Weapons Inspection of bidens doj d its immense power used against political opponents. What we see today are two tracks of justice, one for opponents and another for the son of the president so questioning the rule of law itself and tim scott, getting in line i guess would be the way the describe it. Scott . This is the Majority Opinion of the average rank and file. You can pull that out of a poll taken in the last two weeks. Here is the way republicans see it, most of them. The doj colluding with the biden Family Lawyers to get a Blanket Immunity Deal for hunter. The next day theyre piling more indictments on trump and some random portuguese immigrant who works at maralago. Today you have this. While everybody seems to be ignoring the whistleblowers and biden family. You see this channel in tim scotts statement. You see it channeled in ron desantis statement. The reason theyre channeling it, theyre hoping for a day donald trump evaporates. Something happens. He is not in the race number, and they want to be able to pick up the bulk of the party that believes exactly what you just read. And you had will hurried on, Asa Hutchinson being on earlier, different perfect. Chris christie comes out, slams, disgrace falls the most on donald trump. He swore an oath to the constitution, he violated his oath and brought shame to his presidency. Chris christie has a 70 negative opinion among the gop. This is why. But its the truth. And the question were dealing with, how much do facts matter . We need to conduct a facts based debate. With tim scott, a good man presenting a generally optimistic vision in an overwhelmingly negative republican field. He said two tiers of justice in this country is fundamentally factually wrong. This indictment shows there is one standard of justice, that no one is above the law. Take a step back from politics. This is about the serious most historical moment in a long, long time where a sitting president tried to overturn election on the basis of a lie. This lays it out. Folks want to engage in magical thinking and not read this indictment as a matter of pride. They are engaging in political ignorance, but it doesnt make it right. And we shouldnt dignify. There is an emerging theory on the right tonight about that even people who believe january 6th was horrible that trump violated his oath of office, whatever, that its possible to believe that he was totally wrong and amoral and shouldnt hold the presidency again, but that you dont also have to believe that he should have been charged with a crime. Im starting to see people on the right tonight parse it out. I dont agree with january 6th. I think he was wrong. This indictment seems thin. I wish they hadnt done it. I want to remind folks that the arguments that the senators made who didnt vote to impeach the second time this is an improper way to handle this. It should be done through the legal system and the Justice Department. Give it time. Lets hope that theyre consistent. Now you all have had a chance to go through this in more detail. Kind of a road map for state and local prosecutors. The indictment does raise new allegations that we did not know of before, for example, arizona. There is evidence here that says that trump and giuliani and eastman, when they called the House Speaker rusty barrows, what did they ask him to do, to do things that violated his oath by telling him can you get your legislature to overturn the popular vote. Arizona is investigating the false elects or the. Will they also investigate them . Similarly in georgia, Booster Rockets in a sense in the Georgia Criminal indictment if it comes. Was even told by eastman, we can certify this because we now know its false. And eastman and trump certify it. There is things like this in all of the states. Another line, paragraph 66. They say the false electors are at the direction of trump and giuliani. Thats new across all the seven states. It maybe brings it home to the states of people if their State Prosecutors and local District Attorneys do want to take it up or investigate giuliani for example. Which is amazing youre now talking about a whole lot more. In terms how many more indictments could be coming in various jurisdictions. Karen, one thing about this, whats in it and not in it is this is designed to move as quickly as something can move . Thats whats really brilliant about this indictment. At the same time, its a 45page complicated factual scenario. Yet incredibly simplistic. There is one defendant, four charges. Thats it. There is one set of Defense Motions that will be made, one set of Defense Lawyers who will be saying it will be ready, jack smith and his team. Its so streamlined. There is no classified documents here involved here so they dont have to worry about people getting top secret clearance or all of the complexities with the maralago case and the different Defense Attorneys that are going cause delays and all the different motions and motions to sever, and all the things that will happen here, there is none of that. Its just one defendant, four charges. Kit go quickly. And i think it has the best chance of all of the indictments against trump of going before the election. Which is very significant to say. Because obviously its not the last. But were at the tail end of a whole host of them coming over many months. And to that point, what stands out to you what is not charged. Exactly. In order to have a streamlined indictment, there is probably decisions that had to be made on things that couldnt be charged. And weve spent the greater part of the last two years or so debating the question of whether the former president will be charged with things like Seditious Conspiracy or inciting violence and so on. I think it would have been incredibly hard to tie the president to some of those things. For instance, Seditious Conspiracy, youd have to prove some agreement to use force or threats to prevent, hinder or delay the execution of american law. Now that happened, and many people were already convicted of it. But tying the president to that would have been incredibly difficult. And you would have also run into some pretty serious First Amendment. Explicit versus implicit. And all of those things from his speech which were disgraceful, shameful for a president , unbecoming, not becoming the presidency. So it would have been incredibly difficult to do. And then the other thing thats whats not in the indictment. The other thing i think will be interesting over these months is what proof or how the Justice Department establishes that civil rights claim, the deprivation of rights in some way that the president engaged in. Was he depriving voters of their rights to a free and Fair Election . Was he depriving mike pence of the ability to do his job . Both of which could be established under that section of the code there. Its not entirely clear how theyre establish that. And i think it will be interesting over the months to see what establishes it. All right. All stay with me. Laura . This is really where the rubber is going to meet the road is eliot talking about how do you actually prove the case because that really is the next step if youre jack smith. And up next here, Michael Fanone who was attacked on january 6th joins us to react to this indictment. This is cnn special live coverage. Retired right . Am i . Ya save up to 500 on the new sleep number® smart bed. 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Theyre saying they dont have any reason to read this indictment because they already know what they think. Yeah, well actually, republicans have been preparing their response for weeks. Even before seeing the scope of the charges. And in some case, erin, they have been directly coordinating with donald trump himself about how best to defend him. Donald trump has spoken in recent days to some of his allies including Elise Stefanik trying to strategize over a messaging plan here. Im also told he sent Talking Points arguing that trump was only consulting his attorneys in the leadup to january 6th. And now some on the right are calling to defund Special Counsel jack smith, though that would be dead on arrival in the senate. Erin, i am expecting republicans to ramp up their focus and investigations into the biden family. In fact, a number of republicans in their statements today suggested without evidence that this indictment was purposefully timed after testimony from hunter biden business associate. I want to read you part of Kevin Mccarthys statement. He said everyone in america can see what was going to come next. Dojs attempt to distract from the news and attack the frontrunner for the republican nomination, President Trump. House republicans will continue to uncover the truth about biden inc. And the twotiered system of justice. Though, erin, i think probably the most remarkable statement was from Marjorie Taylor greene tonight saying she was still going to vote for trump, quote, even if he was in jail. Really summing up the State Of Play in the Republican Party right now. But notably, we did not hear from senate gop leader mitch mcconnell. He has been silent throughout all of the indictments and legal troubles facing former President Trump. So really a tale two of republicans leaders there. Melanie. Medically is talking about Marjorie Taylor greene. I think its called a face bump. I was trying to figure out the best way the describe it. But it was pretty notable. Yeah. But those are the stakes. As a practical matter, republicans go forward and nominate donald trump, they could very well be nominating someone who is facing prison time. And as Marjorie Taylor greene just said, she would vote for him if he is in prison. Now according to this New York Times cnn poll, it seems around 37 of republicans who may be in that same camp, will support him no matter what. But the rest of the Republican Party, the majority of the Republican Party needs to understand that if they nominate someone with this kind of baggage, that is kryptonite when it comes to appealing to independent voter, moderates, and moderate republicans. All right. Laura . So much more to unpack about that. I want to play more, by the way of what jack smith said tonight. The u. S. Capitol on january 6th are heroes. Theyre patriots and they are the very best of us. They did not just defend a building or the people sheltering in it, they put their lives on the line to defend who we are as a country and as a people. They defended the very institutions and principles that define the United States. One of the people trying to hold that line is cnn Law Enforcement analyst and former d. C. Metropolitan Police Officer Michael Fanone. Michael fanone, im so glad youre here tonight. Im wondering what you have been thinking about all of this. What is going through your head tonight after this indictment came down . When i first learned about the indictment, i had a long conversation with a friend of mine, ryan reilly. And i told him how proud i felt to be an american at that moment, much in the way that i did when i learned that our military had killed Osama Bin Laden. I just felt incredibly proud. Incredibly proud im sorry, i dont want to cut you off, why that comparison in particular . I believe theyre comparable. In what way . Absolutely. Osama bin laden was a terrorist who committed a horrific act against american people. And against our republic. And i believe that donald trump is a terrorist who committed horrific acts against the american people. You can imagine that is a very eyebrow raising statement to say the least, the notion of Osama Bin Laden and the comparison to donald trump. It likely speaks to just how deeply you have been concerned and have felt about all of this. But are you concerned that statements like that, or the rhetoric surrounding what his role has been is going to cloud peoples view of this indictment as a fair sfloes process . I think that the only person or people whose view matters with regards to this indictment are the jurors who will eventually be sat and listen to the facts, and ultimately make a judgment as to whether or not donald trump is guilty of the charges that jack smith and the department of justice have brought forward. The doj other than that, what i say, or what republican lawmakers say is just, you know, shit to take up time on cable news. Well, i do appreciate the way you want to spend my evening, but i do want to hear what you understand and what you think about this truly, michael, because when you think about what we were all watching on january 6th, and seeing the events unfold, this indictment talks more than just what happened on that day. It talks what led up to it as well. And not just the moment, the hours that were spent by you and so many of your brave colleagues trying to hold the line and defend, really, the seat of democracy as we talked about today. Youve been concerned consistently about whether people would really face consequences for what happened on that day in particular as well. When you read through this indictment, youre a former member of Law Enforcement. So indictments youre no stranger to. And the idea of whats charged and some of the reactions to it, when you read through this indictment, saw these charges, it is enough . Does it not go far enough . I mean, again, ive talked about this before. I think and you know as a former federal prosecutor, you know, jack smiths job is to pursue the clearest charges against donald trump. I know that there are friends of mine, colleague, people that were there with me on january 6th that would have preferred charges that more associated trump with the violence of that day. I get it. But at the same time, i think its most important that you present charges in which jack smith feels that he can secure a conviction. But regardless of that, i think today is significant, at least to me it represents the end of 2 1 2 years of advocating for this. Donald trump was indicted, not because hes donald trump the asshole, but because he is donald trump, a former president , wealthy white male, literally checks all the boxes of the entitled and privileged in this country who normally circumvent any type of accountability for the crimes that they commit. But there was evidence that he committed crimes. There were Courageous Americans at the department of justice, who put their careers and their safety on the line to pursue this investigation and secure an indictment against donald trump. We should celebrate today. Youve never hidden how you feel about him and your personal opinion of who he is. But i always find interesting, you and i have had these conversations before about this notion that there seems to be an epiphany to some people that we are a nation that has more appeal to the haves than the havenots, and our Justice System can often times really showcase that. And yet the way its being talked about, the way that there is a socalled twotier system of justice often doesnt apply to the conversations that officers are demonstrating and talking about and prosecutors i guess on the legal front lines are describing, now there has been an indictment. Do you think that trump will ultimately face consequences for his role as alleged on january 6th . I think that he will be tried. I dont know whats your definition of consequences . Whats yours . To be honest with you, i mean, honestly, if youre asking me personally, well, dont bait me something something i cant say on cable news. We passed that part about three minutes ago, Michael Fanone, but okay. Keep going. Thats fine. We turned left, we turned right, and now were here again. Ill tell you, laura, i think that donald trump should go to prison for the rest of his life. And i would hope that, you know, he would have a stroke and live forever. Thats what i would like to see happen to donald trump. But again, thats just me personally. Whats important is the rule of law was upheld. That old adage that we told each other over and over again in our careers in Law Enforcement, you and me, that no one is above the law. Well, today, you know, i actually believe that. Because here we are with a former president who has been indicted, and now has to face the criminal Justice System. Not a position that i would want to be in. Michael fanone, you know, i know you as an officer as well, and i know that one of the things that you strongly believe in, and i know that there is a lot of extraordinary feelings you have about this issue personally. But i know you stand true to the presumption of innocence. And that presentation of evidence thats coming in the next set of this well see how the trial actually goes in this event. Thank you so much. Nice talking to you. Yes, maam. Thanks for having me. Erin . All right. Well, laura, coming up, the lead counsel and then President Trumps first impeachment. Donald goldman will be with us next. Attention. Are you suffering from hearing loss . The fda has finally approved hearing aids to be sold over the counter. And now, rca, introduces their Revolutionary Otc hearing aids. Starting as low as 99. Delivered, free. Right to your door. Theyre affordable, theyre not the cost people associate with hearing aids or hearing devices. The Old Fashioned hearing aids were a serious hassle. My Old Fashioned ones cost me 5,000 and these actually work better. The rca hearing aids are more than 5,000 less. Act now and reclaim the joy of hearing with rca otc hearing aids. From as low as 99. You will not find hearing aids of this quality at this price anywhere. The first moment i received my hearing aids from rca, i popped them in my ear, and it was like bam, i could hear everything you know rca. The quality is there. 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Com well, former President Donald Trump is now indicted for his efforts to overturn the 202010 election and is set to appear before a judge in washington on thursday. So the arraignment is going to come very quickly. Special counsel jack smith making it clear he is pushing for a speedy trial. My office will seek a speedy trial so that our evidence can be tested in court and judged by a jury of citizens. In the meantime, i must emphasize that the indictment is only an allegation, and that the defendant must be presumed innocent until Proven Guilty Beyond A Reasonable Doubt in a court of law. I want to bring in new york congressman daniel goldman. He was also the lead council in then President Trumps first impeachment. And part of the reason of course so many knew his face long before now. So congressman, i appreciate your time. 45 pages in this indictment. As an attorney, what have you learned . Well, it is a sweeping and powerful indictment that lays out a series of escalating efforts that went interest the legal to the grossly illegal for that donald trump led in trying to overturn the election and install himself as the unrightful president of the United States. I think the number of different tentacles of this conspiracy is quite alarming. You mentioned Jeffrey Clark, and he is of course one of the six coconspirators mentioned. Now we have identified five of them. Rudy giuliani, john eastman, sidney powell, Jeffrey Clark and kennedys chesebro. There is a sixth, a political consultant that we have not yet named. These six individuals, though, congressman, we do not know if they have been indicted yet or not. It does not say that they are unindicted coconspirators. It just says coconspirators. What do you read into this . Well, i read that they wanted to have an individual and separate indictment of a former federal government United States because of the importance that he has, only because donald trump was the subject of this investigation. But if i were any of those six coconspirators, id make sure i have my lawyer on speed dial, and i would expect that unless they come in and cooperate, which i doubt they will at this point, that they will be on the other side of the v in an indictment in the near future. So there are several things in here that we learned. Just from one of the basic things of trump having a meeting in thes of with his National Security team well after hed lost the election when he at the end he says oh, yeah, its too late for us. Thats for the next guy. Making it very clear he knew hed lost. There is details like that in here there is also the detail that the Vice President mike pence took notes. And patiently was a very detailed note taker. Taking contemporaneously notes with his meetings with mr. Trump. It notes in one instance, pence takes notes saying trump falsely tells him that the Justice Department was finding major infractions. Another time pence is mentioned taking notes is when trump makes knowingly false claims of Election Fraud, including the Quote Bottom Line on every state by 100,000 votes. And we won every state. Now i was talking earlier to olivia troye, who as you know, of course worked for the former Vice President. She said he was a very detailed note taker, that he would use a black sharpie and index cards. Now we know this and we know that he was providing these notes to the doj. How big of a role do you think his notes could play . There are those notes and Richard Donoghue had the notes when donald trump said just say it is corrupt and leave it to me and the republican congressmen, which is mentioned in the indictment, but not referred to the notes. Notes, contemporaneously notes are very powerful corroboration when a department, a Defense Council tries to undermine the credibility of a witness, because you have realtime recording of what the individual said. So its another element of proof. Because It Corroborates and builds credibility for what the witness said. But erin, you really did point out one thing that jumped out at me which was that conversation about Foreign Affairs National Security issues unrelated to the election when donald trump says well, 17 days before the inauguration, well, well leave this to the next guy to deal with. That is an admission that he knows that he lost before january 6th and his efforts is convinced to say it nicely mike pence to throw the election for donald trump. That is a critical, critical piece of evidence. Yep. Because the defense will be that donald trump is such a Narcissistic Sociopath that he actually believed his own false statements and his own disinformation. And therefore he doesnt have the necessary mens rea, the intent and knowledge to commit a crime. Thats not a legitimate defense when you are faced with facts and you just simply choose not to believe them. That would mean that almost no defendant could be ever convicted of fraud. But that is unquestionably the too crazy for Conviction Defense that they will have. And that specific statement is going to be very important. Is damning in that regard, although interesting as you say, your best defense is being a Narcissistic Sociopath. If thats the way it will go. You were told a million times that this was false, and yet you continued to perpetuate the lies. Congressman goldman, thank you very much. I appreciate your time. Thank you. All right. And my panel is back. Karen, one thing that the congressman was just talking about, we were talking about this incident where there is a meeting on the evening of january 3rd. The president and National Security team are together. Theyre talking about an incident that is nothing to do, the situation has nothing do with this. And actions are recommended. And the defendant, President Trump, calmly says, yeah, youre right. Its too late for us. Were going to give that to the next guy. This immediately stood out to all of us because he is clearly acknowledging there is going to be a next guy and he lost on january 3rd, before january 6th, and two months after the election. It is in this 45page indictment the only example like this in here. It doesnt mean its the only one jack smith has, but its the only one thats included. Right. Look, jack smith is not going to put every single fact in the indictment, just enough to tell a story. Youll get more of those facts at trial. For example, Alyssa Farah Griffin who is often a guest on cnn. Right. Was even earlier tonight. She talks about when trump says i cant believe i lost to this fing guy. That was a statement he made acknowledging that he lost. There are these glimmers of it how did he not know . He lost 60 court cases . More than 60 court cases. Right. He knows he lost. He was just looking for an answer. And there are those glimmers in there. Thats a crumb. Someone comes to you and says the sky is purple and the burden is on you to prove that they dont know its purple, when the whole world looks up and sees that its blue. I feel like thats kind of where we are on this. Of course the guy knew he lost the election. And yet you have 45 pages trying to prove he knew he lost the election. Its stunning. I dont know if my blue sky analogy works. But its sort of how it comes across. Youre identifying Reckless Disregard of the knowledge of the color of the sky. Someone is allowed to believe that the sky is purple. But if they receive advice from their attorney, the head of the director of national intelligence, the Attorney General of the United States, and any number of people around you saying no, sir, im providing you concrete legal advice that the sky is in fact blue, you can be found guilty of believing the sky is blue purple. Sorry. We do, ryan, have a statement just comg out from john eastman, whoomeone of the cococonspirators, his attorney, saying that eastman will not plead. That there will be no plea, no opation. He says if he were invited to plea bargain with either state or federal prosecutors, hell decline. If indicted, hell go to trial. If convicted hell appeal. And he says the indictment relies on misleading present tases. If he does go to trial and be convicted, the evidence is very strong, but it does set up something kind of interesting, which is that he might try to defend himself in ways that will hurt trump. Thats what happening right now in california where there is a proceeding to have him stripped of his bar license. John eastman. And john eastman has said i never told the president that Vice President pence could eject the electors that would have been illegal. What is happening . Paragraphs 92, 93, it alleges that john eastman told the president just that. I dont think trump would like to hear that, because then it would be him saying nobody told you that that i dont could suggest to elect the seven ejectors because it would be patently illegal. It actually sets them up against each other if thats the road. Even without pleading, he is throwing someone under the bus. Trumps whole defensesy relied on my lawyer. And his lawyer says no, i never told him that, right . That throws his defense out the window. Riekght. And laura, the unprecedented territory were in. Were having a whole discussion about whether someone should know the sky is blue. Its unbelievable to think about. Three indictments in four months . And by the way, its only tuesday, everyone. And were only in august. Thank you for watching. Its about to be wednesday in 20 seconds. Three, two, one. Thank you for watching, everyone. Its time for us to go to bed. A new fresh day tomorrow. But our coverage is going to continue. A warm welcome to our v viewers in the United States and around