the one truly unanimous thing is the jury's decision. by most accounts, the right verdict under wisconsin law. to which adam swerver of the atlantic said it is one thing to argue the jury reached a reasonable verdict based on the law and another entirely to celebrate rittenhouse's actions. that celebration is under way, however, among right wing content crusaders. it's been under way since friday afternoon. they're lionizing the 18-year-old, lifting him up for promoting a pro-gun culture. can you see fox is in bed with rittenhouse, filming it late at night for a documentary for tucker carlson's unit. he had a crew embedded behind the scenes with rittenhouse throughout the trial. and a portion of the interview with the 18-year-old will air on monday. so fox is using the rittenhouse story to drive subscription for its streaming service, and the right wing media has also seized on this moment to slam the rest of the media for the trial coverage. i do think there's an important conversation to be had about why so many folks had a misunderstanding about some of the facts in this case. yes, there was a lot of confusion in august of 2020, but we learned during the trial that some of the assumptions were false hbds, some left wing outlets providing a skewed picture of what happened on that awful night in kenosha, and there's been confusion ever since. this coverage, of course, dominating cable news for days. i want to bring in three voices you haven't heard on this network yet, beginning with the president of longtime network rachel stockman, former media critic of baltimore sun, david zurawik and dispatcher and "time" columnist david french. thank you all for assembling today. david french, first to you, you've been writing about this case in detail. what do you think is the takeaway when it comes to the rittenhouse verdict and the media? >> one of the takeaways is i think parts of the media dropped the ball on covering this case from the start. right from the start there were a couple of things that were pretty immediately obvious. one was we knew what wisconsin self-defense law was and the other was there was a lot of video evidence out there in the public domain. what the video evidence showed is rittenhouse was being chased before he fired fatal shots, that he was knocked to the ground, that he was attacked before he fired fatal shots. if you knew wisconsin's self-defense law and you knew through the rules around open carrying, you knew he was going to have a strong defense. but what a lot of people did is they took the foolishness of being there, trecklessness of being there in itself, 17-year-old armed with a rifle going to a social unrest, that's ridiculous. 17-year-olds shouldn't be doing that. and they conflated that with all that followed, and that's a big mistake. that's not how juries look at it. juries look at the law. they compare the law to the facts, and under wisconsin self-defense law, he had a strong defense, and honestly, it was pretty apparent from the beginning that he had a strong defense. >> how much is it about slogans that were a test early on, the slogan about crossing state lines? and how much information about this didn't come out right away, that only came out at trial that then changed the picture? >> i think trial fleshed it out but there were an awful lot of people who knew the contours of the defense early on. the videos were out there early on. and i think there were media outlets who just did a disservice by not noting rittenhouse was running away. this was somebody not aggressively approaching people, he was running away. even under wisconsin self-defense law, there's some modified versions of a duty to retreat but you would think pursued by the first person he shot very aggressively. these kinds of things were not amplified enough and so that's one of the reasons why i think the verdict took millions of americans by surprise on its own terms. separate and apart from the question of should he have been there, which i don't think he should have been there, that you don't give a 17-year-old a rifle and encourage a 17-year-old with a rifle to go to a riot. that is not what you do. but those things were being conflated with the legal elements of the crime itself. >> i see what you're saying. rachel, do you agree? you run wron crimes, production service, production company running legal services. a lot of people tuning in online. do you agree with that assessment? >> i do. i will say the right got it absolutely wrong and the left got it absolutely wrong. i have to say, we have covered hundreds of trials on wrong crime. and this was the most viewed, most engaging trials in terms of viewers. >> wow. >> we're still waiting for final numbers but what i will say is viewers wanted to watch the raw feed. they wanted it unfiltered. they wanted to watch it itself. there were times we had just the seal up on our livestream and tens of thousands of people watching a seal. people were watching jury instructions, which are usually very boring. they wanted unfiltered access to the trial because quite frankly, the american public was sick of the spin from both size. t sides. they wanted to see what really happened. >> interesting. now we know what happened and the verdict and tucker carlson was secretly -- he had film crews recording the whole time with the rittenhouse defense team. rachel, is this unusual to have a camera crew behind the scenes during a trial? >> it's unusual but not unheard of. we've seen this happen before. we've seen documentaries on netflix where film crews are embedded with the defense team. it certainly raises some ethical issues. and there's no question from a journalistic perspective, right, you can't say this is going to be an unbiased documentary we're going to see from tucker carlson's documentary unit. however, listen, the defendant is allowed, rittenhouse is allowed to make a decision if he wants this film crew to tape him as the legal proceedings are going, that's absolutely his right. >> and when rittenhouse's attorney said on cuomo's show, i didn't want the film crew there, i kicked him out. he said it's about the crowdfunding though. some people who funded the defense wanted the crew to be there. that means me think did fox finance this thing, did they pay the defense? overnight fox saying no, absolutely not, there was no payment for any access whatsoever. david zurawik, what do you make of the tucker casualson promo, trailer to the upcoming documentary? it seems to lionize kyle rittenhouse. >> that's exactly the danger here of moving forward from this, brian, as david french said, absolutely, it was reckless. it was outrageous and proved deadly for a 17-year-old to go into that situation, walk the streets with that weapon. what they are doing in that trailer is a very sophisticated piece of film making. you showed rittenhouse lying on that couch, laying on a couch there in darkness. it goes from that darkness, it positions him heroically on what's called the hero quest. this is a hero's journey. he's in darkness. he's talking about how tormented he is by the nightmares and the dreams. this is the hero in his struggles. it even goes from that picture on the couch to a shot of a crucifix on the wall. he's like what's the logic of this? but they're linking him to symbols like the crucifix, a church steeple in the next shot, the american flag. and as he moves through this, he moves from that darkness to light when he's found not guilty and he's embraced by the community, i think his lawyer literally is hugging him and then he's in that car saying it's been a rough journey but we made it through. literally, they're not just holding him up as a role model, they're calling him a hero. that is so dangerous, it's socializing and radicalizing potentially another generation of youth, white men, to think they can pick up guns and go be police officers and make life-and-death decisions about other people's lives. it's outrageous a 17-year-old goes into their with a gun -- one thing going byself defense laws in wisconsin -- which, by the way, i'm from wisconsin, i'm from that part of the state, i know it well. by the way, i can say i think the black leaders who have said if that was a black teenager with a gun, the results would have been different, i think they are absolutely right about that. but, brian, it's one thing for him to be found not guilty but for fox to use its vast resources to make this into a heroic theater, that is so dangerous because it fits in with all of the militias, like the one who decided they were going to try to kidnap the governor of michigan, the people who stormed the capitol january 6th. that vij lantyism is a real danger and you see how president biden tried to mobilize it and in some ways successfully has and now another generation comes up. >> you gave us film making 101 there. it really is valuable to look at each shot and what they're saying with each camera shot in a sequence like that. to the two davids, please stand by. rachel, thank you so much for starting us off here. also coming up, the trials you are not seeing on tv and why that's such a big problem for democracy. up next, pulitzer prize winner hannah-jones on the future of the 1916 project. our forward-looking views of the market. 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(jackie) talk to your doctor about austedo...it's time to treat td. td is not ok. visit askforaustedo.com. are you a christian author with a book that you're ready to share with the world? get published now, call for your free publisher kit today! welcome back to "reliable sources." i'm brian stelter. one of the week's top-selling books is the 1619 projects. this, of course, started as "the new york times" magazine cover story and now blossomed into multiple books. there's both an adult version and version for kids. behind it all is "the new york times" magazine writer hannah-jones. she's joining me now to discuss both new books as well as the week's news. thank you for coming on. >> thank you for having me. >> why did you need to expand on the magazine project and present what you call here a new origin story for america? >> well, we wanted to expand for a couple of reasons. the original project was limited by both the time constraints of putting out a magazine as well as space constraint. so this gave us a chance to really expand the project, invite more historians to contribute. we discussed more topics than what were originally included and more than double the poetry and short fiction in the book. it also gave us a chance to extend all of the original essays and answer the critics by really showing our work and really expanding some of the original arguments. >> you have critics, really? >> a couple, a couple. >> speaking of critics, we are seeing these bans in place. we can put up maps on the screen. "1619" related curricula banned in texas and florida and similar bills are pro posed in other states. it's obviously not going to happen in new york but it could be in the carolinas. so the lawmakers trying to ban it, is there anything you can do in response to that? >> you know, i think it is absolutely astounding legislatures are banning the teaching of a work of journalism by name, explicitly saying you cannot tease this work. really no matter how one feels about "the 1619 project" we should all be concerned and opposed to the efforts by the state to restrict the teaching of ideas simply because politicians don't like them. i think there are people, different organizations that are considering lawsuits around this, and i just really argue for teachers to oppose these laws and communities to oppose these laws. >> there also have been bans in critical race theory. do you see this happening in this book and academia, do you think the two are related and if so, how? >> certainly critical race in academia is simply saying why is it 50 years after the end of discrimination, why do americans still suffer great inequality? it just looks at how inequality has been structural. and "the 1619" makes similar arguments. i don't understand what is dangerous about that unless you're a politician who doesn't want to see policy that's addressing inequality. >> and you want to see something kind of wild, this is a graphic we created of coverage of fox news on crt before the election in virginia and after. you will see 160 or so mentions before the election and just about 30 mentions this week. clearly there was an attempt right before the off-year election to stoke concern about race and how it's being caught in schools. be now much less talk in recent days that there's no election happening. and i wonder if you feel like you're part of this political drama where you have democrats spinning around worrying there's too much talk about wokeness and they're going to have to change that for the midterms. do you feel like you're partly responsible or partly part of that story? >> let me say i appreciate you showing that graphic because what i and many others have been saying is this always was a propaganda campaign. >> wow. >> it was designed to, you know, this anti-critical race theory was designed to stoke white resentment, it was designed to put progressives back on their heels and defend something that wasn't happening and designed to drive white suburban people to the polls for republicans and in some degrees it's been successful. do i feel responsible for that? absolutely not. a project that is seeking journalistically to force us to grapple with our history cannot be responsible for bad-faith actors deciding that they're going to try to whip up white resentment. in fact, if you read "the 1619 project," you know race is the oldest wedge in america and it still works. >> is that and certainly the adult version is actually well worth reading. you also published a children's book and i'm curious about that. because obviously there's the whole right wing narrative about indoctrination, blah, blah, blah. but there's also a good-faith attempt here to try to take a really substantive work of nonfiction and produce it for younger audiences. tell us about the reason for that. >> yes, the children's book is called "born on the water." i co-wrote that with a children's book author emily watson illustrator nicholas smith. this is really a response to so many people who read "the 1619 project" and said we don't want to wait until our children are grown to introduce them to this information. we want something for children. what "born on the water" is really an origin story for black americans who descend from american slavery. it starts with something i talk about in my essay on democracy, which is a black chide ld being asked to write an essay and draw the flag of her native land but black americans because of slavery don't know what country in africa they came from and that's a very demeaning experience for a child. this project really gives black children an origin story and talks about the people they came from in africa, talks about the passage and slavery. and then it talks in a triumphant way how black people in this country, despite everything that happened, believed in democracy and fought to make democracy legal for all americans. i think it's a beautiful story for all children to read, and particularly for black american children. >> nicolle, thank you so much for coming on the program on book launch week. >> thank you, as always. i appreciate you. coming up -- who are we supposed to believe, bill barr or maria bartiromo? that's a tough one. and the tough question every newsroom needs to ask about the former president. i will ask the question to abc's jon karl next. a mountain of toys to fulfill many wishes. must be carried across all roads and all bridges. and when everyone is smiling and having their fun i can turn my sleigh north because my job here is done. it's not magic that makes more holiday deliveries to homes in the us than anyone else, it's the hardworking people of the united states postal service. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ so you have diabetes, here are some easy rules... no sugar. no pizza. no foods you love. stressed? no stress. exercise. but no days off. easy, no? no, no, no, no with freestyle libre 2, you can take the mystery out of your diabetes. now you know. sir? you know what you want to order? yes. freestyle libre 2. try it for free. small businesses like yours make gift-giving possible. now, comcast business has an exclusive gift for you. introducing the gift of savings sale. for a limited time, ask how to get a great deal for your business. and get up to a $500 prepaid card with select bundles when you switch to the network that can deliver gig speeds to the most businesses. or get started with internet and voice for $64.99 per month with a 2-year price guarantee. give your business the gift of savings today. comcast business. powering possibilities. what's the real deal with rupert murdoch's message to donald trump? this week rupert, while speaking to newscorp shareholders, went the out of his way to jab at trump, telling him to move on and stop obsessing about the 2020 election. quote, it is critical conservatives play an active, sourceful role in a political debate but that will not happen if president trump stays focused on the past. rupert said, the past is the past and the country is now in a contest to define the future. now, i actually think fox's programming is largely reflecting murdoch's wishes. fox moved away from 2020 delusions a long time ago. that's one of the reasons mike lindell is always whining about the channel and going to have a protest now. the channel is less pro-trump at this point than it is anti-biden. but where does being anti-biden lead? you know where. fox is the beating heart of the gop, a gop that remains in for all a fear of trump. and trump is never going to concede that he lost. just a couple of days after murdoch's message, trump called into laura ingraham's show and maybe chaneling her boss, she asked him about the future. she tried to be focused on the fut churl. but watch how it went right back to the past. >> mr. president, your own political future, where is it headed? >> prior to covid, we built the greatest economy in the history of the world. then we had covid, we did a great job, and then we had an election and that didn't work out too well, it was a rigged election. >> then he went on about supply chain problems. but he had to get that rigged claim in there. his whole argument for 2024 is about taking back what he claims was stolen. he's never going to give up on the big lie or stop big lying. so is rupert murdoch naive to think otherwise? let's ask david zurawik. is rupert murdoch a naive man? what's going on? >> brian, the last thing i would ever call rupert murdoch is naive. that's the last thing. i'm not a fan. rupert murdoch has done more to debate the conversation of america's civic life than anyone i can think in the media with his creation of and use of fox, a propaganda channel, selling it as news. he's not naive. he knows exactly what he's doing. what's galling is his hypocrisy, brian. he says this, even as you just so clearly showed, his hosts are still selling the big lie in a way. they're not so overt as some of the other right wing channels but this is the source of it. why doesn't he have tucker carlson come on*/ and say you know what, joe biden was a legitimate president of america. we can oppose him but he won? it's never going to happen with murdoch. it's like when murdoch was one of the early people to get the vaccine i think a year ago in december and still he elects tucker carlson and others spread anti-vax disinformation on their channel. they call it skepticism about the vaccine but we know it's what they're feeding is that kind of disinformation. clearly, rupert murdoch should put his channel where his mouth is if he believes this stuff. i think the other thing he and trump joust a little bit. it's two old men -- >> that's true. >> -- who are really problematic, you know. >> i wonder if he will back a rifle? if in a year trump enters the 2024 primary season, if rupert swings behind a trump rival, that could have a huge impact. >> huge. >> but i'm not sure his gentle words to shareholders applies that. >> you know that better than i do but i wouldn't bet on him backing a rival if trump runs. >> that's true. david zurawik, thank you. so republicans will lead the machine that tried to keep trump in power. former attorney general bill barr went on record for "betrayal" and fox news maria bartiromo called him up screaming over imagined voter fraud and he yelled back at her. bartiromo denied screaming but has not denied calling barr up, which makes no sense from a journalism point of view. why would a journalist call the attorney general mentioning voter fraud but it makes sense in that bartiromo is a full-blown activist and called upon to do trump's dirty work. that's one of the many allegations in "betrayal." jonathan karl is the chief correspondent for abc and is joining me now. how did you get big barr on the record? we have not heard a lot from the former attorney general but you have him in your book. >> i worked very hard to get him to agree to an interview. it took me several months and originally got someone close to barr saying he will do the interview and kept on asking when, when, when? and it kept going further down the road. i finally got ahold of his cell phone number, brian, and i called him directly, i went down and i -- i urged him to put this stuff on the record because i thought it was much more important and much more powerful his words were on the record, and they are. >> that's what i did wrong. i emailed him this week but didn't call him. getting the cell phone number was the key. i see that. so is that the response you have, whenever one of these books come out with new bombshells, people say why didn't you share it sooner, why didn't you report it sooner, is the answer it does take months to get these interviews and get this access? >> it takes a long time. this book was an in-depth reporting project. i was also reporting every day during 2020 and especially during the transition. >> right. >> i was putting information out as i got it, absolutely. but after trump left the white house, i made a decision i wanted to go back and do in-depth reporting and in-depth reporting takes time. >> it does take time. these books have still been coming out pretty quickly, all things considered. >> brian, i will say my friend steve insky at npr said many one of the problems with a lot of the books said not that they came out so late but they came out too early. it takes time. i would have loved another six months to work on this. my book came out after several of the others, and i know there are books to come. there's a lot of material here. >> there is. >> you put it out when it's ready. >> you conclude that the former president betrayed the country. how hard is that for an impartial, straightforward, fact reporter on abc every day, how hard is it to have to say and write and accept? >> it's really challenging. in our dna as reporters, i know at least in the way i look at it, my goal is not to take sides, to be -- to coin or borrow a phrase from an old network, fair and balanced, but our first obligation to our viewers, our readers, the people that consume our work, is to pursue the truth and the fundamental truth here, the core truth is that donald trump betrayed the very democracy that enabled him to become elected president. he betrayed our country, he betrayed the constitution, and he tried to overturn what is really the kind of founding miracle of american democracy. it's a peaceful transition of power. he tried to stop it. >> if we avoid that, then we're avoiding the reality. >> yes. >> but "the new york times" review of your book says, karl, you were late to this. you had belated awareness of what trump was doing in office, abusing his power. how did you feel about that assessment, that you basically were in denial about what trump really was until the end of his presidency? >> i got the sense the viewer never had seen any of my work before. a few paragraphs of that review were borrowed from the book jacket bio. >> how interesting. >> take a look, it's interesting. i reported very aggressively, as you well know, on the trump presidency from the start. i reported aggressively during the first campaign and the second campaign, and i just don't think that the reviewer was aware of any of that. >> i always say to people, the trump of 2017 is not the trump of 2020. yes, he's the same man and same narcissism but he did change in office. here's the reason i'm getting what we know now about the former president and his betrayal of the office. there's a lot of questions now being raised how he would be covered in 2024 if he does enter the primary race, if he is a candidate for president. how is the american news media supposed to cover that thinker? have you started to think about how you would approach a 2024 candidacy of donald trump? >> i have. it's an immense challenge because you're covering an essential anti-democratic candidate. you're covering somebody running in a system that is trying to undermine that very system. and somebody who is going to be perpetually lying. i mean, he still -- i think the point of your previous segment is really on target, he's consumed and obsessed with 2020 and trying to convince the world that that election was somehow corrupt, that it was filled with fraud, that he actually won it. he's trying to repeat a lie so many times that people will believe it. as journalists, we can't allow -- we can't allow -- we can't be a conduit for that lie. it's an immense challenge. what does the debate look like with donald trump in it? how do you -- you can't air trump's speeches unfiltered as often happened in the 2016 campaign. interviews are incredibly challenging. it's an immense challenge. i don't really have the answer yet except to say we have to do what we always must do, pursue the truth and pursue it relentlessly and without fear of failure. >> this is definitely the conversation starting to happen in news rooms and i can hear it very loudly on the outside, critics asking these questions, but it is happening inside newsrooms as well. we know normal is not the answer but we don't know what the answer will be. we also don't know if he's going to run. where are you now on 2024? >> i say people around him say he's running, 100%, definitely running. but i'm actually doubtful about that. i think he will want to make us believe he's running because it keeps him relevant, keeps generating attention for himself but i'm not sure he really wants to do it again. for all of his delusion of 2020, the last thing he wants to do is lose again. >> interesting. jon, thank you very much. best of luck with the book tour. >> thank you, brian. ahead -- good news for a change on the press freedom front, and every week a new extreme drives the news cycle. ...is her reality. nexium 24hr stops acid before it starts, for all-day, all-night protection. can you imagine 24 hours without heartburn? 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kevin, where are you? kevin?!?!? hey, what's going on? i'm right here! i was busy cashbacking for the holidays with chase freedom unlimited. you know i can't believe you lost another kevin. it's a holiday tradition! earn big time with chase freedom unlimited. how do you cashback? chase. make more of what's yours. news whiplash, do you feel it? every day, every week there's a new narrative, some new extreme, and it feels to me like whiplash. this is definitely true in political coverage, where president biden is the worst of all time or the best of all time or he's collapsing or he's succeeding, either he's saving the country or his presidency needs saving. every week is portrayed as climatic, even cat chris mick. horrible losses, huge wins and hot takes for every conceivable issues. this is also true when it comes to coverage of the economy. a rightful focus on sky high prices and increasing gas prices but obviously less intention when they come back down a bit. inflation another example of whiplash with question after question about what biden will do or what he can do when it comes to inflation. now, of course, those losses come along with wins. here was the celebration on the house floor as democrats passed the build back better act. but before they could celebrate, there's always more whiplash. there's always another narrative, another news cycle that gets in the way. and it feels to me like the pandemic is a part of every one of the stories we're covering these days, even if it doesn't always come up in the coverage. we're all coming through this historic trauma, this historic period of time, and it might cause some people just to want to pull back from the news altogether, when there are endless hot takes and memes and social media friendly headlines that seem to make every story seem so important when, in fact, what really matters are the trend lines. what really matters are not every individual poll but the average of the polls, right? the polls over time when it comes to biden. but the news is always up at a 10 or 11. how do you bring it back down to a five or six? how do you separate news from noise? i know that's something david french does very well. that's why i love reading him at the dispatch. he's the author of "divided we fall: america's succession threat and how to restore our nation." there's something about the divides here that relates to my sense of whiplash lately david. how do you keep your head on straight in this environment where the news is always at a 10 or 11, even when it should really be down a little bit lower? >> first you have to acknowledge it's hard. it's hard. there are always voices saying, say something now, say something now, be strong now, but i think if i had to sum up two words that are absolutely necessary in this time, as i think from media to politicians to corporations, people want individuals and institutions that are calm and competent. calm and competent. >> i think that's true, i think most people want that but that's not the very vocal majority, silent majority, sorry, because there are these media incentive structures on the far right and far left to be incredibly loud. >> that's right. and there's actually research that says there's not so much a silent majority but exhausted majority. these are the people who care about this country, they're on the right, on the left and in the middle but they're recoiling from the political discourse because entering it is like getting shot with a cattle prod. you're going to get hit by the really loud voices. so what's absolutely vital is for foreign media institutions and individuals in the media and american politics to take it upon themselves to do their best to bring calm -- when i say calm, that doesn't mean don't react when there are true emergencies but don't treat everything as an emergency. take a breath, take a beat, evaluate what's going on and then speak from knowledge, speak from expertise, less so than from opinion or herd messenger tallty. again and again, we are seeing these herd mentalities where media gets stories wrong in a big way. where politicians react wrongly in a big way. it's that demand, we have to have the ability to take a breath, take in the scene, cut through that sort of fog of war, that confusion when complex events are unfolding quickly and be competent in what we deliver. that's easier said than done. these are complex things. they're hard. but when that's a priority, rather than responding to the outrage of the moment on twitter, i think we can do something about this situation. do something about the situation we're in. >> right. i should put down this red bull, a need a little less energy for a change. so calm and competent. here's what i find myself doing, data. i find myself looking for guideposts, quote messages that sum up the environment we're in. you wrote recently about j.d. vance, ohio senate candidate and eight words that in some ways define our politics now in the worst way. he says as an american conservative, he said, "i think our people hate the right people." now to me unfortunately that sums up where we are on the extremes of our politics in 2021. i always go back to those eight words as what's pulling at the hearts, our people hate those people. >> that's exactly correct. and he's accurately summing up the hatred, not that you can hate the right people, there are no right people to hate, to be clear. but what he's summing up is the dynamic in play. but, again, what we have to go back to is this is not where most people want american politics to be. and it's twrong swrong to say t all in the moderate middle. there are people on the left, people on the right and yet there are people on the middle who do not want a politics do dominated by hatred. they don't. they're looking for outlets, looking for voices, for politicians, for celebrities, you name it, all of these participants in this seemingly endless culture struggle we're all a part of, they're looking for voices that are not voices of hate. but right now in politics, the politics are driven by the polls. the politics are driven by the most angry extremes. that's where the clicks are. that's where the eyeballs are often. sadly on cable news and internet world where i live, that's where the eyeballs are. so this is the challenge that we face. in many ways you're turning away from the eyeballs you need when you're going towards calm, competent analysis. >> i'm into it though. cnc, i wrote it down. we'll come back to this soon. david, thank you so much for coming on the program. >> thank you so much for having me. up next -- something big is missing from the media coverage of the january 6th prosecution. and i'm going to show you what it is. oh, there you are. you know cath, with chase freedom unlimited we can cashback on all our holiday shopping. earn 3% at drugstores! i'll be at checkout. you bring the card. wait - i'm paying again?! earn big time with chase 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(gentle music) nearly every story in the news right now seems to be a legal story, but not every case is equally accessible. while the kyle rittenhouse verdict was seen live and the trial of the three men charged with murdering ahmaud arbery are streamed live. in the federal court system, broadcasting is not allowed. that's why we can only show you sketches of steve bannon's appearance in court, of the elizabeth holmes trial. all told, more than 10,000 trials a year happen out of sight. i think this is especially significant right now as the federal courts follow up on the crimes of january 6th. this week the so-called you an none shaman was sentenced. it seems like a good time to change the antiquated rules of no cameras in federal court. yes, it does. what are the chances? let's bring in cnn crime and justice reporter who is keeping track of the cases. kaitlyn, what are the practical impacts when cameras are not in these courts? >> brian, we are missing a lot of things that the general public can't see in full even though we're doing our best to report what happens every day in court, we're not seeing all the evidence in cases. people can't tune in and watch evidence be shown as prosecutors are telling the story. we're not hearing judges act as the referee of information. really, we're not seeing the law being applied in cases and where courts will land on the truth where a jury lands, why a jury might get to that point. we try to do our best, but this is something that's been an issue that federal judiciaries have grappled with for many years. the judiciary has said in the past they don't want cameras in the courtroom in federal courts because they have a fear it will intimidate witnesses and jurors. with the january 6th cases, we're seeing an interesting thing take place where defendants are coming into court and being sentenced by judges, pleading guilty. they are saying i'm sorry. they're disavowing what they did on january 6th. they walk out of court and might say something totally different or shade it, cherry-pick what the judge told them about why they were sentenced that way. two rioters who were in court said they were sorry and then came out and went on right wing media saying i blame the media a little bit, the judge is trying to make an example of me. judges had much fuller thoughts about why these rioters deserved punishment. >> a great example of why we should be able to see what's happening in these courts. every year senators put in a bill trying to propose opening up the course for the cameras. maybe this year. maybe next year. katelyn, thank you so much. more "reliable sources" in just a moment. ♪ wow! ♪ ♪ uh-huh. ♪ so go ahead. take advantage now. ♪ wow! ♪ pack your bags and cashback. earn 5% on travel purchased through chase with chase freedom unlimited. you do this for everyone? i try. hm... excuse me, ma'am! earn big time with chase freedom unlimited. how do you cashback? chase. make more of what's yours. 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