Transcripts For CNN Fareed Zakaria GPS 20240709

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everywhere. why aren't americans getting back to work? also, a new warsaw uprising. tens of thousands of pols have turned out to express their anger, this time against their own government. i will ask anne applebaum what is happening in a country that many fear has turned into an illiberal democracy. finally, following the money all the way to south dakota. why in the world do the rich and powerful stash their wealth there? we'll explain. first, here's "my take." just weeks after the tragic fall of afghanistan, something important happened in the other country where america conducted a great nation-building experiment over the past two decades. iraq held elections, which were mostly free and fair. assuming this process leads to the formation of a new government, it will be the sixth peaceful transfer of power since 2004. although turnout was at a record low, this election marks real progress. a senior iraqi official described it to me as a political earthquake. to recap, 18 years after america's invasion, which ushered in an era of chaos, civil war and rise of isis, iraq's democratic system has endured. elections have become routine, political parties compete and horse trade, and there's a degree of media existing not quite free by western standards, but one that is showing some progress. the same senior iraqi official described the results as a political earthquake because he characterized them as a defeat for militias and victory for the iraqi state. you see, after iraq's army melted away in the wake of the 2003 american invasion, political power brokers and parties created their own armed militias. over time, the shia militias grew in strength, especially when they were called upon to fight isis and became a kind of powerless state of their own. many had close ties to iran. but in this election, by one count, parties to militias went from 45 seats to under 20. the second seismic aspect of the election has been the rise of sunni participation. sunnis, the minority group in iraq, have been the most disaffected in the system. they tend to be cynical by voting and remain disgruntled. in the past they have on occasion fueled insurgencies. but this time they voted, managing to concentrate their votes in fewer parties. our monitor estimates if a few of these leaders can ban together, a unified sunni bloc would have 50 seats in iraq's 290-seat parliament, which would give it greater political power than it had since 2003. the big winner of the election is the fiery anti american radical cleric whose troops battled militias in the past. now, however, al sadr transformed himself into a political player that works within the iraqi system. his rise to power can force him to disband some of his own militias and support the state more strongly. there are signs he will do just that. interestingly, sadr succeeded in this election through old-fashioned organizing, grassroots efforts and start forward-looking communication strategy. his party used new election laws effectively and actually created an app that told its supporters where and when to vote, that officially distributed votes to gain maximum representation. muqtada al sadr has come a long ways since his violent days as a violent revolutionary and casually assuming a role as a candid party boss. and despite iran religious, political influence in iraq, pro-iranian parties did not fare well. that same iraqi official said whatever someone might say about al sadr, he's clearly a iraqi nationalist who does not like foreign interference from any side in the country. i asked him what explains iraq's relative success, and he's the first to acknowledge it is relative and tentative. he pointed to two large factors. first after the fiascos of america's early policies in iraq, strenuous efforts were made to incorporate all political groups into the system. he said one of the unheralded successes of the surge, led by that great odd couple david petraeus and ray odierno was to bring sunni militias back into the fold. that political outreach was in contrast to policy in afghanistan, which ruled out any taliban participation in the political system. the second he said was the battle against isis. that struggle really brought the country together, he said. iraq has always had a sense of a nation and a polity and when this prevailed, it gave us pride in that achievement. the official cautions iraq's democracy remains fragile. corruption is undermining the state and the political system. he said for now the urgent challenge is the losers in this election have to accept their loss and not resort to violence or extraconstitutional needs. yet he sees encouraging signs. we iraqis have learned we have no alternative but to handle our differences through politics, to trust in elections, and above all, to compromise, compromise, compromise. hmm, the losers should accept their loss and all parties must compromise. who could have imagined a decade ago that iraqi politics might provide some useful lessons for american democracy? go to cnn.com/fareed for a link to my "washington post" column this week. and let's get started. ♪ last month costco announced it was reinstating limits on how much toilet paper you can buy. chip shortages are bedeviling companies that make everything from computers to cars to cooktops. and you might want to start considering beginning your holiday shopping today, otherwise, you might not get what want. what in the world is going on? this is meant to be a recovery. well, david lynch wrote a terrific piece in "the washington post" explaining exactly that. he joins me now. welcome, david. so i'm in new york. i want to buy something. it's on the website. i get it. why does it not get to me within the amount of time i'm used to getting it by? >> sure. at the moment whatever you order is probably sitting in a shipping container that's stuck on one of several dozen ships, as many as 60, 70 ships that are anchored off the coast of southern california just waiting for a spot at the dock to come in and unload. but this has been going on since the start of the pandemic, you know, from the factories in southeast asia through the ports on the west coast of this country, to the trucking firms, the rail yards, right up to your doorstep, there are problems one after another. >> and each one feeds the other. explain what happens. as you said, there are all these ships waiting there. they can't get a spot. but now the trucks waiting for the ships containing my goods is now off schedule, right? >> exactly. this system sounds on the one hand that the supply chain is the simplest idea, we're really just talking about moving boxes from point a to point b. but in practice it turns out to be devilishly complex. and the system works quite well under normal circumstances. and it's built to operate a little bit like runners in a relay race. i run my lap. i hand the baton to you, you run a lap and so on. but if when i finish my lap, you're not there waiting to take the baton, it doesn't matter how fast the next guy is, the system grinds to a halt. and that's what we are seeing with the supply chain. those ships can't get to the docks. when they do, it's terribly crowded. the trucks that normally get in and out in the blink of an eye take forever, and the same thing happens at the rail yards and the breakdown feeds on itself. >> is there a kind of original cause to this, what's going on right now? or is it just so complicated one can't even pinpoint a place where it all started? >> the original sin is really the change in consumption patterns that occurred as a result of the pandemic. you go back to last year when many of us were trapped at home. we all stopped going out and spending money at restaurants, ballparks, theaters, concerts. and most of us started ordering more stuff on walmart, amazon, elsewhere, laptops, furniture, clothes, what have you. so if you look at the nature of the economy, services always dominates the u.s. economy. makes up about 70% of spending. but the goods side of things, goods spending went down about four months, surged right back up and now exceeds pre-pandemic levels. services spending is still way down. so the nature of what we're buying has changed, and we've got a supply chain that's set up for an economy that no longer exists. we're in a new world. >> and you point out that our entire supply chain is built for efficiency, not resilience. explain what you mean. >> sure. during the whole era of globalization, companies increasingly prioritize making things as inexpensively as possible. that's the whole logic behind these global supply chains that take parts from all over the world, stitch them together and perhaps do some final assembly in mexico or the united states, and then you've got your product. that makes sense if you strip out every bit of waste and cost, and as a consequence, whenever anything goes wrong, then you're suddenly caught short, and that's the lesson that we've learned during this crisis with the pandemic. >> how do we get out of this? is this going to be as jerky, and while we're going to keep seeing these delays, it's going to be a while before the whole world economy is back the way it was. >> yeah, i think many of the people we spoke to for our recent project say we have another year ahead of us of this sort of disruption. doesn't mean it's necessarily going to be absolutely as bad as it is now, but it really has been a story of one thing after the other. remember the ever given, the ship that got stuck sideways in the suez canal, and covid outbreaks in southeast asia. next year the longshoreman contract expires so companies are ordering more goods in a proactive way to try to get ahead of that potential disruption. >> is there a way to kind of narrow the supply chain? is anyone talking about a solution that doesn't require such a far, far flung global supply chain? >> there's a lot of talk about it. there's a lot of talk of what happens near shoring of bringing factories if not all the way back to the united states, perhaps to places like mexico. but there's no perfect solution to this problem other than ending the pandemic. if we can end or completely contain covid and our spending patterns return to normal. we start going out to restaurants more, start going back to concerts, start doing more of the travel and leisure spending that's been -- that's taken a big hit during the pandemic, that reallocation of consumer purchases would go a long way towards fixing what's broken. >> david, fascinating. thank you so much. >> any time. next on "gps," we'll examine one other factor in american's current crisis, unfilled jobs. the big question, why is it happening when the official unemployment rate is at a near-record low? the answer when we come back. ♪girl, i don't know, i don't know,♪ ♪i don't know why i can't get enough of your love babe♪ ♪oh no, babe girl, if i could only make you see♪ ♪and make you understand♪ get a dozen double crunch shrimp for $1 with any steak entrée. only at applebee's. now that's eatin' good in the neighborhood. new projects means new project managers. you need to hire. i need indeed. indeed you do. when you sponsor a job, you immediately get your shortlist of quality candidates, whose resumes on indeed match your job criteria. visit indeed.com/hire and get started today. in 2016, i was working at the amazon warehouse when my brother passed away. and a couple of years later, my mother passed away. after taking care of them, i knew that i really wanted to become a nurse. amazon helped me with training and tuition. today, i'm a medical assistant and i'm studying to become a registered nurse. in filipino: you'll always be in my heart. your eyes. beautiful on the outside, but if you have diabetes, there can be some not-so-pretty stuff going on inside. it's true, with diabetic retinopathy, excess sugar can damage blood vessels, causing vision loss or even blindness. so remember this: now is the time to get your eyes checked. eye care is important to your long-term diabetes management. see a path forward with actions and treatments that may help your eyes— and protect against vision loss. visit noweyesee.com and take control of your sight. the most commonly written phrase in america these days seems to be "now hiring." i know i see those words just about everywhere i go. the department of labor says there are 10 million job openings in the country, and there are 8 million people unemployed. so what is the disconnect? to help us understand what's going on, i want to bring in heather long of "the washington post," who's written superbly about this subject. so, heather, explain to us why is it if there are so many job openings, why are there are so many people still unemployed? >> well, fareed, obviously, we're still in a pandemic and some people have health concerns. also childcare concerns. we saw in september, for instance, unfortunately over 300,000 women left the workforce, meaning they had to quit jobs or stop searching for work because even though schools are reopening, it's been a chaotic reopening and a lot of after-school programs are not running right now. so these issues are still at play, still holding people back from wanting to jump in. but i think there's something deeper going on here, and i have been writing about this since may, since the spring. i have been calling it the great reassessment of work in america. we are just seeing workers, whether they're high-income workers, tech workers, law firm workers, all the way down to people who are in the $10, $11, 12 dollar-an-hour jobs say they want something very different in their life and careers, that this pandemic has changed them and changed their thinking about what they want. and that's why you're seeing a lot of people who simply don't want to go back to restaurant or hotel jobs. they're trying to find something else. we see a record number of people quitting right now. 30 million people have quit so far this year. people are calling it the great resignation. but it goes beyond that, we are seeing a wave of early retirements and a wave of people starting new businesses. we have not seen this level of entrepreneurship in close to 30 years in the united states. >> and the wage rises do not seem to be making as much of an impact as people thought they would. i saw in the hospitality industry, wages are up 18%, but still people don't want those jobs. >> that's right. i think a couple of different things are going on here, and as you mentioned wages particularly at the low end are rising in some of the fastest levels we've seen since the early 1980s. obviously, companies are trying to respond, they're trying to lure people back. but the message that's being sent from a lot of workers is, more pay is a good start but they want more than that. and that's the real message i think that's being missed here. when you actually call, as i do almost every day and talk to people who are unemployed or talk to people who have quit a job in the last few months, the number one reason they say isn't pay. that might be part of the story. the number one reason is burnout, mental health issues, i want better work/life flexibility to be with family or to pursue other dreams that i have, and they feel that companies are not recognizing them and the sort of whole person that they are. i think what we may see coming out of this is in a similar way one of the big of the transformations in the labor market that we've seen since world war ii, and world war ii, of course, a lot of women took on jobs that they had never taken on before, and since world war ii we've seen an increasing and growing number of women working in the united states and around the world. and i think the shakeup that's happening right now is going to be similar in the sense that what we are seeing is a demand around the world, not just in the united states, for more flexibility in the workplace. >> so one of the arguments that has been made about why there are so many people who are just not looking for work is that there were very generous unemployment benefits provided by the government. they did expire about a month ago. what does the evidence suggest about whether or not people were sitting back and not looking for work because they had fairly generous unemployment benefits? >> fareed, the evidence so far suggests that that is -- that was barely a blip. it was not the main factor that's holding people back from going to work. obviously, as you mentioned, about 7 million americans lost benefits over labor day, and we did not see a huge hiring boost in september. september was very weak hiring. but don't forget over 20 states, almost all republican states over the summer in june and july had rolled back a lot of those more generous unemployment benefits over the summer. and those states did not see any faster hiring than other states that had kept the benefits in place. so, again, i think the takeaway here is that something deeper is going on than just people sitting at home being lazy or not wanting to work. we need to understand that it's more than that. i think another interesting point, particularly for your viewers, is these labor shortage issues are a global phenomenon. this is not just a u.s. phenomenon. again, that suggests to me if this were truly an unemployment insurance story, we would start to see more workers going back in the united states and other countries have even more generous unemployment benefits and we have not necessarily seen -- we are seeing similar dynamics around the world. >> you mentioned there's been a huge rise in start-up businesses and entrepreneurship, people starting the business they always have wanted to. does also an uptick in productivity, is there not? what's behind that? >> it's been aa phenomenal uptick in productivity. obviously, there was a huge digitization of so many different fields. there was a productivity gained for people not having to travel or drive around and they were able to just log right in in many cases and go to work. and rising automation. when you go to a hotel now how much is automatically done, you push a button at a kiosk, push a button instead of talking to a person in many cases. this has all helped to fuel a productivity boom in 2020 and 2021, and i'm moderately encouraged this could potentially be a big driver of growth for the united states going forward, if we can keep a lot of these gains going. >> so all in all, what you are describing, it sounds like there may be good news in this puzzling data. thank you very much for joining us. >> thank you, fareed. next on "gps" -- how does a political furor in poland relate to one of the biggest furors about the political future of the united states. that story when we come back. she hooked me up. with a quarter moisturising cream, dove cleans effectively and cares beautifully. >> tech: when 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with jamie lee curtis. a q&a with me! join for free on the xfinity app. our thanks your rewards. a week ago poles came are out in droves to protest their own government. this was after major protests of a different kind from poland's fellow eu nations. one pol said poland was playing with fire. at issue a ruling from poland's top courts saying essentially the eastern european nation didn't have to following european laws anymore, poland's laws supersede the eus. those are not the rules poland agreed to when it joined in 2004. joining me now anne applebaum, staff writer for "the atlantic," pulitzer prize winner and part-time resident of poland. her husband serves as one of the members of the party currently in opposition. anne, first explain to us what poland's supreme court is, because it's a new supreme court created or re-engineered by the current ruling party, which itself is highly controversial. >> yes, i think a fundamental part of this story is to understand the polish constitutional court, which is what we're talking about, has been created by an unconstitutional law. there's a way of picking judges that the ruling party has created, which is opposed to the polish constitution. there have been protests and legal challenges over the last several years, but the result of it is it's a packed court. so it's a court that contains judges on it who have been chosen directly by the government for political reasons. it's a highly politicized court. many of its members are in close contact with the ruling party at all times. for americans watching, you have to match an american president fires half the judges of the supreme court, and puts in his cronies and best friends instead. that would change, of course, fundamentally the nature of the court. so already we're talking about a court whose judgments aren't even recognized by all polish courts anymore. so it's a controversial court and it's known to make judgments in statement of what the government wants, nothing to do with the polish constitution itself. >> and the issues this ruling party wants to be different about are what, a kind of social conservatism and things like that? what do they campaign about when they say we want to not be bound by eu dictate? >> not at all, this is nothing to do with conservative socialism. this is about their ability to preserve these unconstitutional laws. it's about their ability to go on breaking the rule of law inside poland, and their ability to continue politicizing the court system and other aspects of the legal system, which is what they've been trying to do the last several years, with a lot of resistance to it. and, of course, what people in poland are worried about is this is happening in anticipation of perhaps an attempt to play around with the elections, perhaps to change results, perhaps to change the electoral law. so it's the ruling party saying we don't want anything to do with rule of law, with any of these rules about rule of law that the eu has laid down. >> and i imagine there are a lot of poles who are horrified by this. what kind of opposition are they mounting and can they mount? at this point it's the ruling party and parliamentary system so it dominates both the legislative and executive branch. >> it does, and it's trying to take over the judicial branch as well. there is an enormous amount of opposition and there was almost a spontaneous demonstration last weekend. it was called for on sunthursda and by sunday there were tens of thousands in all major cities and many smaller cities as well all over the country waving eu flags and polish flags. those understanding are objecting, the opposition will object, many of the judges in the system, who are not part of the new nomen coutura will reject this court or make judgments against it. so we're entering a lot of conflict. it's important to understand this is not like brexit. 90% of poles say they want to stay in the eu. this is something quite different. this is the polish ruling party in effect without admitting what it's doing is pulling poland out of the system of recognizable rules and laws that hold the eu together. >> and it seems like it's trying to get rid of an independent judiciary poland. i have to ask when you describe the way you did in regard to essentially politicizing the judges possibly so that when the next election takes place, the people who determine, you know, who won in a narrowly contested election will be political hacks rather than impartial observers. this sounds a lot like what the republican party is doing in various states in america. do you see a parallel there? >> of course. this is the known tactic of populist authoritarian leaders from hugo chavez to erdogan in turkey. that the ruling party seeks to politicize courts and the media and seeks to use that power to change the rules and alter the system to guarantee its own victory. this is a -- this is a path to power and path to dictatorship that we've seen repeating itself all over the world in recent years. and, of course, for me it's a very strange moment to have parallel kind of politics in poland and the united states, really two very different countries with different histories and sociologies and demographics and so on, and yet you can see some of the same patterns unfolding is eerie. of course, they influence one another. the poles follow closely what is going on in the united states, they take inspiration from it and they see what trump did and they're looking to do something like that. >> on that sobering note, anne applebaum, thank you. >> thank you. next on "gps" billions of dollars stashed in tax havens where you might least expect them. my next guest will help us follow the money trail to south dakota. think again. neutrogena® makeup remover wipes remove the 30% of makeup ordinary cleansers can leave behind. your skin will thank you. neutrogena®. for people with skin. 80% get genetically meaningful health info from 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(birds chirping) ♪ (upbeat music) ♪ (phone beep) ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ (music quieter) ♪ (phone clicks) ♪ ♪ [ chantell ] when my teeth started to deteriorate, i stopped hanging out socially. it was a easy decision -- clearchoice. [ awada ] the health of our teeth plays a significant role in our overall health. chantell was suffering, and we had to put an end to that. the absolute best way to do that was through dental implants. [ chantell ] clearchoice dental implants changed everything. my digestive health is much better now. i feel more energetic. the person that i've always been has shown up to the party again. when you think of a tax haven, you might think of switzerland or the cayman islands. what about south dakota? it's hard to imagine, but the prairie state of fewer than 1 million people is actually home to a burgeoning trust industry used to park billions and billions from overseas and shield the money from scrutiny. that is according to the pandora papers, a blockbuster investigation using a trove of nearly 12 million confidential financial documents. my next guest says this is just one of the myriad of ways in which america actually enables corruption all over the world. sarah chayes is a journalist who studied corrupt networks across the globe. her recent book is called "on corruption in america and what is at stake." welcome, sarah. first, tell us the story of south dakota. south dakota basically says if i company comes and registers, we will not ask too many questions about who owns the company. that's always the issue there. you have a company, but in many cases you are required to reveal who are the ultimate owners of the company. >> in this case it's not as much companies but trusts. the type of thing an ordinary wealthy family might set up for their children. but in this case in particular what south dakota does is allow the trust to be perpetual, which means it just gets passed down and passed down and passed down. that's among the things that the state -- basically the laxness of the regulations in south dakota. and so it's become a magnet for money often from criminals or corrupt officials from around the world. >> and this is something that happens in rich countries a lot in various forms. people often talk about london real estate, one of the reasons why there are so many billionaires with shady money who have ended up buying huge apartments, houses, mansions in london is that there are very few questions asked about that. does america do that in other ways? >> absolutely. the art market is another very important one. there's basically no regulation, and so you can park your assets as works of art or you can use them as investment properties with none of the regulations that you would have, you know, if you were trading in securities and, of course, properties also in florida is another excellent example be in certain places in california. and there are efforts under way at the moment to try to force some transparency. as you suggested the problem being we don't even know who's buying these properties because it's a company that belongs to another company that belongs to another company that has signed on the dotted line. >> i assume some of the money finding its way into all of these havens, money being spent by the u.s. government and u.s. military in places like iraq and afghanistan. i ask you this because you have spent so much time in afghanistan trying to help the u.s. -- i remember you were trying to help general petraeus at one point. is there moral or lessons for america at throwing money at the problem and hoping somehow it will get stability in afghanistan and instead getting massive amounts of corruption? >> yes, and i think there are two lessons to be learned. one is that it matters, the behavior of a government towards its own citizens. people were being robbed not only of the developmental resources that should be reaching them but they were also being robbed on a daily basis by every government official they encountered and they were losing their dignity as well as their money. that's what really matters. people start to get angry and then they go to extremes. and in the case of afghanistan, that meant the taliban. the second lesson is a harder one, i think, which is to say afghanistan really looks a lot like a mirror of us. i mean, i've heard afghanistan before the current tragedy, i've heard it called a failing state, right? and i would often say, places like afghanistan may look like failing states, but that's because their leadership isn't trying to govern. they're not trying to be a state. what are they trying to do? enrich themselves, and they're incredibly successful at doing that, and they're very sophisticated, these networks. well, let me just ask you for a moment to take a look here at home. let's look at some failing policies like the afghanistan war, the iraq war, two lost wars, an economic meltdown that brought down practically the world economy, a rampant galloping environmental crisis, and an opioid epidemic and covid pandemic that's been badly handled at best, that have killed, each of them, more than several hundred thousand americans. now let's look at the executives of defense contractors, financial investment firms, real estate firms, pharmaceutical companies and fossil fuel giants who have cycled in and out of government, or at the very least have been very influential in terms of shaping governmental policies, let's see how they're doing. pretty well, right? so i begin to wonder is afghanistan not holding up a mirror and showing us, warning us how bad it can get if we don't bring our own sort of systemic corruption, if you will, into control? >> sarah chayes, very important book. thank you for being with us. >> thank you for having me, fareed. and we will be back. you have the best pizza in town and the worst wait times. you need to hire. i need indeed. indeed you do. indeed instant match instantly delivers quality candidates matching your job description. visit indeed.com/hire my plaque psoriasis... ...the itching ...the burning. the stinging. my skin was no longer mine. my psoriatic arthritis, made my joints stiff, swollen... painful. emerge tremfyant™. with tremfya®, adults with moderate to severe plaque psoriasis... ...can uncover clearer skin and improve symptoms at 16 weeks. tremfya® is the only medication of its kind also approved for adults with active psoriatic arthritis. serious allergic reactions may occur. tremfya® may increase your risk of infections and lower your ability to fight them. tell your doctor if you have an infection or symptoms or if you had a vaccine or plan to. tremfya®. emerge tremfyant™. janssen can help you explore cost support options. ♪darling, i, i can't get enough of your love babe♪ ♪girl, i don't know, i don't know,♪ ♪i don't know why i can't get enough of your love babe♪ ♪oh no, babe girl, if i could only make you see♪ ♪and make you understand♪ get a dozen double crunch shrimp for $1 with any steak entrée. only at applebee's. now that's eatin' good in the neighborhood. and now for the last look. for 16 years germany had just one chancellor, angela merkel. only two germans have held the office for longer. now after a very close election, it will like i will be lead by someone outside of merkel's party. the center-right block of christian democrats suffered the worst performance in history. what accounts for the shift? merkel overhshadowed all others on her side. the successor in her own party made several missteps. perhaps more significant, merkel moved her party away from the conservative roots partly by joining forces with the center left for three or four terms. that left an opening for a man named olaf schultz to portray himself as merkel's heir apparent. but he wasn't from her party. and in the end, 1.5 million voters abandoned merkels party for a center left one. but a changing elector rate was at play where immigration g dominated 2017, voters this year are more concerns with economic issues and compliment. this may account for the success of two smaller parties. these parties are already dom fated by younger voters and another million and a half of merkel's party vote went to the two parties. they became the king makers. against this backdrop was another notable change. the far right populist party lost near position as the main opposition party. they fell to 10.3% this year. princeton political scientist explains that candidates that turned away from immigration to talk about pensions and climate did better. the liberal free democrats, for instance, told a german news agency that migrant wokkers could contribute to the shrinking pension fund. this will be the most diverse in history reflecting germany's increasingly multicultural society. although refugees have become politicized in the past, about three quarters of all german refugees say they feel welcome. . they may be backing away from their hardline stance. they found that campaign posters on immigration used softer language. they tapped into an antilook down con tstconstituency. over the last few years main stream parties like those in austria and denmark have co-oped some language to lure away their voters. even the republican party borrowed the lock, stock, and barrel term knowledge of president trump. thank you for being part of my program this week, i'll see you all next week. >> now is the time for cleaner air. you notice for car pet cleaning. . they drove to safelite for a same-day repair. and with their insurance, it was no cost to them. >> woman: really? 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